←2012-12-27 2012-12-28 2012-12-29→ ↑2012 ↑all
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03:30:43 <Sgeo> " The difficulty in transferring graphical images through the Internet without a resource such as a large Web page or a FTP site, and the fact that most maps already available are in postscript format (when few home users have postscript printers) means these minor rule change variants flourish."
03:30:54 <Sgeo> I think that this article might be a little old
03:31:21 <Bike> glad we all have postscript printers now. otherwise google maps would be so useless.
03:34:09 <Sgeo> [The article is talking about Diplomacy variant maps]
03:36:43 <hagb4rd> its not only old, it didn't even make any sense back then
03:38:30 <hagb4rd> graphical images.. what is that .. 'through the internet' without a resource(?) as a 'large webspace' lol
03:39:04 <hagb4rd> and how could the format affect this difficulties?
03:39:25 <Sgeo> I think the idea is that back then not many people had access to web space or FTP space
03:39:41 <Fiora> old articles about the internet are fun
03:40:09 <Fiora> I still have an old simcity 2000 strategy guide from 1994 talking about how to connect to services like compuserv to download scenarios off of ftp. and getting on usenet to talk with other players
03:40:49 <hagb4rd> sounds valid
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03:41:03 <zzo38> Does the Usenet group for Simcity 2000 still used, anyways? If so, then it may work.
03:41:15 <kmc> cutting edge analysis
03:41:20 <zzo38> But you should use internet to download scenarios off of FTP, not Compuserv, by now.
03:42:25 <Sgeo> http://webcenters.netscape.compuserve.com/menu/
03:42:34 <Sgeo> The NetScape logo is still in use
03:42:56 <Sgeo> NetScape.com is owned by AOL
03:43:30 <Sgeo> Tripod still exists
03:46:06 <kmc> and goatse.cx is now a webmail provider
03:47:31 <hagb4rd> and john carmack is now building space ships
03:48:01 <hagb4rd> (which maybe is not surprising at all)
03:49:06 <kmc> nice
03:50:02 <kmc> and the google founders, Ross Perot, and James Cameron are starting an asteroid mining company
03:50:17 <Bike> and in dead cities, djikstra lies dreaming
03:50:17 <kmc> Ross Perot Jr. i mean
03:50:29 <kmc> which if you think about it, is basically the setup for a james bond movie
03:50:39 <kmc> eccentric billionaires develop technology to hurl asteroids at earth
03:50:42 <Sgeo> kmc, and from that I learn that there's an outlook.com
03:50:51 <kmc> Sgeo: goatse strikes again
03:51:13 <kmc> the ass that launched a thousand clicks
03:51:38 <kmc> meanwhile jerkcity is still going strong, just as good as it was in 1997
03:51:42 <kmc> how many webcomics can say that
03:51:49 <Sgeo> Superosity
03:52:05 <Sgeo> Oh, Superosity's from 1999
03:52:15 <hagb4rd> "when Carmack was 14, he broke into a school to help a group of kids steal Apple II computers, but during the attempted break-in one of the kids set off the silent alarm. John was arrested, and sent for psychiatric evaluation (the report mentions 'no empathy for other human beings'). "
03:52:23 <hagb4rd> lol
03:52:39 <Bike> a true doom murderhead if there ever was one :')
03:52:43 <hagb4rd> great.. i alway adored this guy
03:52:54 <Sgeo> Freefall's from 1998
03:53:14 <Sgeo> Freefall is still good
03:53:34 <Sgeo> People question whether Superosity is any good, but Freefall is always awesome
03:53:43 <Bike> oh, keven and kell
03:53:58 <Bike> and sluggy freelance. of course.
03:53:59 * Sgeo hasn't read Keven and Kell
03:54:03 <Sgeo> Or Sluggy Freelance
03:54:16 <Bike> me neither, but they're the Old Ones.
03:54:17 <Sgeo> Oh woah Keven and Kell started 1995
03:54:27 <Bike> wow, i didn't know PhD dates from '97.
03:55:03 <Sgeo> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WebcomicsLongRunners
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03:57:08 <NihilistDandy> Mezzacotta has been running for all of time, and then some.
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03:57:44 <kmc> this is me trying to join #esoteric from Comic Chat
03:58:17 <NihilistDandy> That's esoteric as shit, kmc
03:58:36 <Sgeo> I've played with Comic Chat before
03:59:01 <kmc> it crashes quite a bit
03:59:01 <Sgeo> Please disable the thing where it sends garbage to the channel. Although I haven't seen any garbage, so maybe you did.
03:59:15 <kmc> i was kind of hoping it would send garbage to the channel
03:59:20 <kmc> but i can't get that far
03:59:28 <elliott> kmc: please don't disable the bit where it sends garbage
03:59:28 <NihilistDandy> Well, you're here, aren't you?
03:59:31 <elliott> I want to see the garbage
03:59:39 <Sgeo> When I did it, it was on some VM emulating Windows 98
04:01:30 <kmc> yeah i'm trying to use wine
04:13:26 <Sgeo> "No Fourth Wall - the sheer number of strips make it impossible to say if fourth wall breaking happens constantly or not, but at least this strip is an example. And this."
04:13:31 <Sgeo> (About Mezzacotta)
04:14:08 <Sgeo> I don't see why one couldn't take a random sample and determine with a certain degree of confidence what percentage are fourth wall breaking etc.
04:16:00 <elliott> we here at #tvtropescorrections will investigate your complaint
04:18:33 <kmc> i had a question for tvtropes but i was too lazy to search and find the answer
04:18:37 <kmc> which is
04:18:49 <kmc> was Community the first sitcom to have a character who thinks they're all in a TV show and everyone else thinks he's crazy
04:19:03 <kmc> it seems kinda likely that there is precedent, but i don't know of one
04:19:24 <zzo38> Is it possible to amplify the audio of a HDMI signal without decoding it, and without affecting any other part of the signal?
04:19:59 <Sgeo> kmc, there's a webcomic that has a character that thinks he's not in a webcomic and everyone else thinks he's crazy.
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04:24:42 <hagb4rd> zzo38: iirc the audio data is transported on seperate threads.. the signal is specified by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF
04:25:06 <hagb4rd> giving a max. distance of about 10m
04:26:59 <hagb4rd> no that's not correct
04:27:10 <hagb4rd> it is similar zo spdif
04:27:24 <hagb4rd> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Extenders
04:28:17 <hagb4rd> technically it would be possible. what would be the goal of this amplification?
04:28:29 <elliott> isn't it encrypted tho
04:30:52 <hagb4rd> sure you could use amplitude modulation to inject information as done in radios too
04:31:30 <hagb4rd> but thats not y asked did you zzo38?
04:36:35 <zzo38> I have a HDMI computer monitor with sound and want to be able to adjust the volume (this is not the computer monitor I am using here; my brother paid and it is being used for the downstairs TV)
04:38:42 <Sgeo> HDMI is encrypted? To prevent an attack from whom?
04:38:52 <elliott> Sgeo: the user
04:38:56 <Sgeo> ..?
04:39:01 <Sgeo> Is this DRM stuff?
04:39:03 <elliott> Sgeo: the user might attack the content industry
04:40:26 <Sgeo> So, I can't make a fully compatible HDMI device without a key?
04:41:08 <Sgeo> Oh, according to Wikipedia, the key has been reverse engineered, I guess?
04:41:37 <hagb4rd> normally the volume is not controlled by the carrier signal but by a transistor at its receiver
04:41:50 <zzo38> I don't like the HDMI but some devices use it so I want to be able to make it connect multiple devices in one computer monitor, some which are Digi-RGB instead, and have it switch simply by acting like the cable is disconnected and reconnected, as well as adjust the volume from the same switching device, without decrypting anything.
04:41:52 <Sgeo> Ok, according to Wikipedia, there is a master key and from that device keys can be made. That makes sense
04:42:07 <Sgeo> So it's not like every company that wants to make an HDMI device gets the same key. That would be dumb.
04:46:17 <kmc> are there provisions for distributing key revocation lists?
04:46:31 <kmc> i know that blu-ray disks can revoke blu-ray keys but can they also revoke HDCP keys?
04:46:44 <kmc> also is HDCP actually mandatory for HDMI?
04:46:55 <kmc> zzo38: is Digi-RGB the thing you invented?
04:47:46 <zzo38> kmc: Yes.
04:48:08 <kmc> http://www.adafruit.com/products/609 is a neat gadget
04:48:45 <kmc> it can overlay video on HDCP-encrypted HDMI feeds
04:49:51 <zzo38> And any device I build which outputs or inputs video signals, other than adapters (such as what I described above), will be Digi-RGB, and NTSC composite; no HDMI.
04:49:53 <kmc> and it does so without decrypting the source video
04:51:00 <kmc> http://rdist.root.org/2011/09/13/the-magic-inside-bunnies-new-netv/
04:51:18 <zzo38> kmc: OK, but I am not trying to do anything to the video signal; I am trying to adjust the volume.
04:51:23 <kmc> i know zzo38
04:52:20 <ion> kmc: Huh. That sounds like an interesting hack.
04:54:25 <zzo38> Wikipedia says some dispalys will accept HDMI audio over DVI connector, but I have tried that and the one I have doesn't do audio if the HDMI port from the VCR/DVD is connected to the DVI port on the computer monitor.
05:00:25 <zzo38> There is also a royalty for HDMI. Therefore I want to intend to avoid it somehow, even if making passthrough devices.
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05:04:33 <Sgeo> kmc, from Wikipedia, I guess that device keys are revocable but master key isn't (or maybe it is, doesn't really say, but that seems like it would be difficult to deal with), and HDCP might be optional?
05:04:43 * Sgeo sn't sure
05:05:06 <Sgeo> New xkcd not up yet :(
05:05:36 <zzo38> It says it costs one cent more if you don't have HDCP, for some reason
05:12:43 <kmc> one cent and one drop of blood
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05:13:48 <Deewiant> Sgeo: There's a new one now, at least
05:14:22 <Sgeo> Deewiant, ty
05:15:28 <Sgeo> SMBC is good
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05:18:15 <kmc> xkcd is up and it sucks
05:19:05 -!- msivoaisw has changed nick to sivoais.
05:20:56 <Sgeo> I kind of like it
05:23:31 <kmc> well
05:23:31 <kmc> ok
05:24:46 <Sgeo> kmc, there may be a jerkcity Minecraft server
05:25:01 <kmc> yeah there is
05:26:01 <kmc> this particular xkcd strip sucks mainly because it's a worn-out joke told without any clever variation
05:26:14 <NihilistDandy> ^
05:26:28 <Bike> so how's the goatsekcd
05:26:44 <kmc> which criticism depends on other things you have seen
05:27:34 <kmc> so it seems reasonable that some people would find it funny
05:27:58 <kmc> goatkcd will be just a single goatse panel with the title "PROOF"
05:28:07 <kmc> which is not that good as goatkcd goes
05:31:00 <elliott> idk i never find goatkcd funny and i still laughed at that description
05:31:14 <Jafet> Conjecture: forall comic. lim t->\infty SNR_comic = 0
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05:32:11 <Sgeo> I made the mistake of joining a jerkcity-related IRC channel
05:32:34 <kmc> was it the secret IRC channel deep in the bowels of the internet where jerkcity is created?
05:32:53 <Sgeo> No. Although that was mentioned.
05:33:11 <elliott> thank god for making #esoteric and making it hilarious
05:33:58 <kmc> praise vectron
05:34:04 <NihilistDandy> FOR VECTRON
05:34:13 <kmc> by vectron's kindly claw!
05:34:19 <NihilistDandy> ^ my favorite line
05:34:43 <NihilistDandy> That hand gesture and his goofy inflection make it amazing
05:34:52 <NihilistDandy> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icTrzUuWlHI
05:35:34 <NihilistDandy> 𝚪 ^
05:40:10 <kmc> what character is that
05:40:13 <kmc> screen eats it :(
05:40:33 <Sgeo> Looks a little like an r with the stem heavily bolded
05:40:35 <Bike> capital gamma?
05:40:55 <Sgeo> And the curvy part straight, come to look at it
05:41:09 <NihilistDandy> Bike: Context
05:41:11 <Bike> ah, it's kmc's nemesis, MATHEMATICAL BOLD CAPITAL GAMMA
05:41:40 <Sgeo> That looks right
05:42:09 <NihilistDandy> kmc: Γ better?
05:42:25 <Bike> isn't that a box drawing character
05:42:31 <Bike> ...no, it isn't. huh
05:48:03 <kmc> ┌────────┐
06:07:09 <kmc> yes Windows 98 installer, please perform a bad blocks scan of your virtual emulated hard drive
06:07:19 <kmc> you have no idea how completely i control your so-called reality
06:07:46 <Bike> the god of this machine. windows 98 is naught but a helpless puppet before you
06:17:58 <elliott> kmc: something about windows95tips
06:21:33 <Jafet> Is kmc acting under the control of the urge to use mscc
06:28:38 <kmc> "Select the directory where you want to install Windows 98: [X] C:\WINDOWS [ ] Other directory"
06:28:41 <kmc> "Do you want to get punched in the balls: [X] No [ ] Yes"
06:32:57 <Jafet> "Don't tick this box unless you're from the future"
06:34:46 <Bike> so, i suppose "why on earth are you installing Windows 98" would be a dumb question
06:36:27 <NihilistDandy> Because Comic Chat is the client of the future. Assuming time is cyclic, anyway.
06:36:46 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comic_Chat oh wow, that thing
06:36:51 <Fiora> was that the thing that invented Comic Sans?
06:37:20 <Bike> i think that was just for word processing
06:37:33 <Bike> «The typeface has been supplied with Microsoft Windows since the introduction of Windows 95, initially as a supplemental font in the Windows Plus Pack and later in Microsoft Comic Chat.» oh, so close
06:37:58 <Bike> shit, they got Microsoft Research to make this? XD
06:38:01 <Jafet> AND WHAT WOULD YOU USE, ARIAL?
06:38:24 <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/62/MsComicChat.png ...the art style looks like Frank.
06:38:51 <Jafet> Comic Chat was accepted to siggraph
06:38:55 <Jafet> Shit is legit man
06:38:58 <elliott> comic sans was for microsoft bob
06:39:00 <elliott> but it was too late
06:39:09 <NihilistDandy> I kind of really want to use it, now.
06:39:13 <Bike> holy shit, they actually tried to get it look like Frank
06:39:17 <Bike> that is disturbing
06:39:19 <elliott> i have a real problem with microsoft comic chat
06:39:29 <elliott> it just looks like jerkcity to me now
06:39:44 <elliott> so I just get really confused whenever I see a screenshot :(
06:39:48 <elliott> admittedly this is not often a problem for me
06:39:54 <Bike> have you read Frank
06:40:43 <elliott> nope
06:40:55 <Bike> you should, so that you can see kmc's Comic Chat journey as a hallucinatory, unending nightmare of spinning tops made of crushed souls
06:41:04 <elliott> Bike: apparently by "tried to get it to look like" you mean "got the creator of that to make it"
06:41:16 <elliott> by which I mean "Woodring illustrated Microsoft's Comic Chat program" [1]
06:41:19 <elliott> == References ==
06:41:22 <elliott> 1. an uncited statement on Wikipedia
06:41:27 <Bike> well i was just going off of "All of the comic characters and backgrounds were initially created by comic artist Jim Woodring. "
06:41:33 <Bike> wait
06:41:51 <Bike> wow i uh, i read that totally wrong. i am impressed with this level of failure.
06:42:13 <Bike> anyway the point is that Woodring is literally insane.
06:42:20 <NihilistDandy> Hahaha. I love that citation.
06:43:06 <Jafet> "Does that have, like, a bibtex entry ot something"
06:43:27 <elliott> \TrustMe
06:43:44 <kmc> <elliott> so I just get really confused whenever I see a screenshot
06:43:45 <kmc> yes
06:43:50 <kmc> "why aren't they all talking about gay cocks"
06:44:35 <elliott> how likely is it that this guy's art is most well-known through jerkcity
06:44:38 <elliott> I guess he looks a bit too famous for that
06:44:46 <Bike> jerkcity did a woodring thing?
06:45:03 <kmc> woodring did the art for comic chat
06:45:07 <kmc> jerkcity is rendered in comic chat
06:45:14 <Bike> whoa man.
06:45:16 <elliott> "rendered"
06:45:30 <kmc> it is!
06:45:33 <kmc> they have perl scripts and everything
06:45:37 <Bike> but, as far as i know woodring is what you call a "cult hit", so a sufficiently popular webcomic probably has more readers
06:46:27 <Bike> oh fuck it /is/
06:46:47 <elliott> not sure it counts as "popular"
06:47:07 <Bike> http://www.jerkcity.com/jerkcity3274.gif is this autogenerated?
06:47:12 <elliott> or arguably "webcomic"
06:47:32 <Bike> "IF I WERE HTML I'D BE &AMP;"
06:47:33 <NihilistDandy> I've read it, and am an obvious slave to pop culture. Ergo, it must be popular. QED.
06:47:36 <kmc> so my understanding of how jerkcity is made is
06:48:05 <kmc> there's a private IRC channel where a few people write obscene garbage whenever they want to blow off steam
06:48:22 <Bike> ok that sounds plausible
06:48:36 <kmc> some scripts chop up the logs of that channel and replay it through a few IRC bots
06:48:47 <kmc> and gets a screenshot of comic chat in that room
06:48:59 <kmc> i think it is partially but not fully automated
06:49:14 <Bike> that's really appropriate for woodring
06:49:22 <kmc> i don't know if they automated the process to draw red 'X'es over deuce's eyes for several months after they got poke]d out
06:49:23 <Bike> in his old comics all the dialogue was just cursing
06:49:54 <kmc> i'm also not sure if the non-standard comic chat backgrounds (e.g. men's room urinals) are customizations to comic chat or are added in postproduction
06:50:02 <elliott> "postproduction"
06:50:04 <kmc> pretty sure it did not ship with a men's room urinals theme
06:50:22 <elliott> server cluster dedicated to the hundred-core high definition rendering of jerkcity
06:50:26 <monqy> him im back but is this about jerkcity
06:50:30 <monqy> ah yes <:]
06:50:42 <elliott> monqy: it was about kmc trying to install windows 98 in a vm for microsoft comic chat
06:50:48 <kmc> trying and suceeding!
06:50:49 <elliott> then it turned into being about jerkcity
06:50:50 <monqy> noice
06:50:59 <kmc> "Getting ready to run Windows for the first time."
06:51:07 <elliott> im not ready
06:51:13 <Sgeo> Wait, did kmc decide to install Windows 98 because of me?
06:51:22 <elliott> your claim to fame
06:51:31 <monqy> twice i've tried to run comic chat in wine, with varying degrees of unsuccess
06:51:32 <kmc> i also managed to download "Windows NT 4.0 Terminal Services Edition.iso.7z" while i'm at it
06:51:36 <kmc> so i have that to look forward to
06:51:39 <Bike> so is the end goal here a fungot-based webcomic
06:51:40 <fungot> Bike: i. from the east. the low antarctic sun of midnight poured its hazy reddish rays over the white snow, bluish ice and water lanes, and black, fnord,
06:51:51 <Bike> thank you for your input
06:51:51 <kmc> i'm pretty sure i already had a win98 VM for this purpose but can't find it
06:51:54 <elliott> i wonder if they specially configure their irc clients to rewrite "foo: bar" as "t foo bar"
06:51:57 <NihilistDandy> Too existentialist, fungot
06:51:58 <fungot> NihilistDandy: i now advanced toward the wall at my left, where it was of basalt, where a fanatic fnord a dire future from visions he has seen.
06:52:04 <elliott> or whether they get the scripts to do it or whether they actually type it out every time
06:52:08 <elliott> mysterys of the universe
06:52:11 <kmc> t fungot gay cocks
06:52:12 <fungot> kmc: " indirectly," he whispered. " it wouldnt do not to answer it anyway, and it leaves you altogether. you have dreamed too well, o wise fnord, for all he could to restore the boy to normal poise. willett was the most phenomenal child scholar i have ever known; the rats they can never fnord the rats, living or spectral, had not the butler spoken of queer noises?
06:52:23 <kmc> queer noises indeed
06:52:50 <NihilistDandy> "elliott!" fungot ejaculated.
06:52:51 <fungot> NihilistDandy: hill by so elderly a man, gnawing at the head of a steep flight of steps from the square was visibly padlocked. the path from the gate to those regions. the yellowed country records containing her testimony and that of only thirty million years old.
06:53:45 <Bike> maybe you could just have so many layers of indirection that the product loses all humanity
06:53:53 <Bike> feed spam emails, warped by a botnet, into jerkcity irc
06:54:35 <elliott> Bike: http://www.mezzacotta.net/
06:54:38 <elliott> except more profane
06:54:58 <Bike> look the cursing is an integral component in this
06:55:16 <Sgeo> Since that outputs SVG, it should be possible to read the text without OCR, but I wonder if there's a given API for reading the text of a comic
06:55:26 <elliott> I am not sure whether mezzacotta or jerkcity is more uneven in terms of funny
06:55:50 <elliott> nice adblock blocks mezzacotta's fake ads
06:55:53 <kmc> jerkcity is extremely consistent
06:55:53 <monqy> let's just say they're the same in some principle
06:56:25 <Bike> the comic from the day i was born sucks, but includes "unthinkable void", so i guess that's ok.
06:56:42 <elliott> kmc: hobgoblin of little minds
06:56:45 <monqy> that reminds me has anyone figured out the boole mystery
06:56:52 <Sgeo> Boole mystery?
06:56:56 <NihilistDandy> elliott: Use L'Hôpital's Rule and find out if Mezzacotta tends toward funny or unfunny, no?
06:56:56 <monqy> yes
06:56:59 <kmc> "If the progress indicator stops for a long time and there is no disk activity, please restart your computer."
06:57:06 <Bike> yes, it turns out to originally have been posted by jerkcity
06:57:15 <elliott> monqy: what is the boole mystery
06:57:32 <Bike> that quote about BOOLE from a few days ago where you got it from like three layers of irc quotes
06:57:33 <elliott> hmmmm the mezzacotta comic from my dob isn't very good
06:57:40 <monqy> elliott: origin of boole wisdom
06:57:41 <elliott> there is no jerkcity comic from my dob because it did not exist
06:57:46 <elliott> monqy: ahhhh yes
06:57:52 <kmc> oh i want to play that cool ass hovercraft game from the windows 95 cd as well
06:57:59 <Sgeo> http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/19/871261
06:58:02 <Sgeo> ?
06:58:18 <monqy> yes you;ve solved it
06:58:26 <Bike> @quote boole
06:58:26 <lambdabot> Berengal says: 'Bobby Boolean felt horrible. What did he ever do to the other values? He was just a simple bit, a simple answer to a simple question! Suddenly he felt his insides churn; he felt an
06:58:26 <lambdabot> exception coming on! Oh no! What should he do, now that he was outside of IO?'
06:58:32 <Bike> um.
06:58:40 <Bike> @quote boole
06:58:40 <lambdabot> Berengal says: 'Bobby Boolean felt horrible. What did he ever do to the other values? He was just a simple bit, a simple answer to a simple question! Suddenly he felt his insides churn; he felt an
06:58:40 <lambdabot> exception coming on! Oh no! What should he do, now that he was outside of IO?'
06:58:43 <Bike> fine.
06:58:51 <elliott> `quote boole
06:58:52 <Fiora> he /threw/ up?
06:58:56 <HackEgo> 563) <fungot> sadhu: it's been said that boole is the crowning jewel perched precariously upon the perfect peak of programmer prowess, casting its limitless limpid light over the loathesome lands of those who scuff and wallow in the dreary dust of digital depravity and unbounded wilful ignorance of the testament of our lord jesus christ into your l
06:59:02 <elliott> @quote perched precariously
06:59:02 <lambdabot> No quotes for this person. Are you on drugs?
06:59:04 <elliott> @quote perched.*precariously
06:59:05 <lambdabot> No quotes match. I feel much better now.
06:59:08 <Bike> that, sgeo.
06:59:09 <elliott> oh
06:59:11 <elliott> it prolly got lost
06:59:12 <monqy> the fungot ver. is missing caps and it cuts off
06:59:13 <fungot> monqy: in another moment the fnord vanished, and he fancied that the manner of an adept, to endure the eon long flight through fathomless abysses. he knew that in this climate such a thing may be like. dholes are known only by dim rumour, from the nightmare caverns of tartarus.
06:59:17 <elliott> because lambdabot's repetition was ages ago
06:59:20 <elliott> and lambdabot likes to lose data
06:59:22 <monqy> rip
06:59:26 <elliott> %style
06:59:28 <elliott> ^style
06:59:29 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft* nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
06:59:31 <elliott> this is a good style
06:59:38 <Bike> Fiora: boo etc.
06:59:50 <Fiora> I guess he just
06:59:51 <Fiora> couldn't handle it
06:59:55 <Bike> fuck off
06:59:59 <Fiora> ;-
07:00:00 <Fiora> ;-;
07:00:20 <Sgeo> ?
07:00:22 <Bike> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1985-02-17 mezzacotta seems pretty evenly unfunny.
07:00:40 <monqy> i can't tell whether my dob mezzacotta is brilliant or awful
07:00:45 <monqy> i think that means it's art
07:00:46 <Fiora> fortunately he was over the toilet, so that when he threw it, it was -caught- not long after
07:00:59 <Sgeo> I'd like to link to my dob mezzacotta, but I don't really want to reveal my dob
07:01:04 <Bike> Sgeo: anyway, so that quote about preciarious perching is probably from #scheme, but lambdabot got it from a bot which was quoting a bot quoting a bot etc. and nobody here knows where it's from
07:01:11 <Fiora> finally, after all that, he felt better
07:01:25 <elliott> Bike: http://www.mezzacotta.net/bestbakes.php has some ~crowdsourced~ good mezzacottas
07:01:34 <monqy> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?year=1996&epoch=ad&month=01&day=28 here's mine
07:01:51 <Sgeo> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?year=1989&epoch=ad&month=05&day=01
07:02:10 <NihilistDandy> This describes my entire life: http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?year=1989&epoch=ad&month=09&day=14
07:02:27 <Bike> These suck. You all suck. I hate everybody. I hate mezzacotta. I hate toilets.
07:02:48 <elliott> this is a great way to assemble
07:02:52 <elliott> my list of birthdays
07:02:57 <elliott> s/ \n/\n/
07:03:05 <elliott> er
07:03:06 <elliott> s/fix that/
07:03:15 <Sgeo> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=-1961-06-11 this one is good
07:03:15 <Bike> Is monqy actually a teenager or is he being a horrible untruthful jerk?
07:03:30 <monqy> Bike: depends on what you mean by teenage
07:03:35 <monqy> but yes i am
07:03:40 <elliott> monqy makes me feel old
07:03:44 <elliott> i'm more used to making other people feel old
07:04:10 <Fiora> Bike: sorry for the puns. I kind of felt like I needed to unwind
07:04:17 <Bike> shut
07:04:18 <Bike> up
07:04:24 <Sgeo> Bike, you ok?
07:04:45 * Fiora ruffles Bike's hair
07:05:04 <Bike> life is an unceasing torment. i ran to the store and it was closed and they didn't have any twinkies. NOT EVEN ANY SUGAR. A raindrop hit me in the nose and my eustachian canal filled with fluid, agonizing fluid
07:06:16 <elliott> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1995-08-22 my birthday mezzacotta since i feel left out
07:06:19 <elliott> "it's not very good"
07:06:31 <Bike> Hm, what's iGoogle?
07:06:56 <Bike> Whatever it is, it was mentioned in the same sentence as Comic Chat, Woodring's illustrations are available for it, and kmc's hilarious time capsule installation probably isn't necessary for it.
07:06:59 <elliott> "iGoogle will not be available after November 1, 2013."
07:07:00 <elliott> hope this helps
07:07:23 <Bike> no! i'll have to install a windows 8 emulator ten years from now
07:07:37 <Sgeo> I think iGoogle is a website
07:07:38 <elliott> well it's also a website
07:07:41 <elliott> so you'll have to install a time machine also
07:08:01 <NihilistDandy> ~OS X already has Time Machine~
07:08:20 <Bike> ok, so i'll install an osx virt on my windows 8 capsule. foolproof.
07:08:22 <monqy> hi
07:08:36 <kmc> Alcohol 120% With Crack
07:09:20 <NihilistDandy> Perfect
07:12:36 <Jafet> Don't use alcohol with crack, kids
07:15:34 <kmc> "Mr. Spock succumbs to a powerful mating urge and nearly kills Captain Kirk."
07:19:18 <kmc> i have rebooted at least 3 times in this install
07:19:25 <buffer> hmm.
07:20:00 <Bike> wait, so are you using your 98 install to read star trek too?
07:20:07 <kmc> no
07:20:15 <Bike> :(
07:21:24 <elliott> kmc: go fullscreen and live inside windows 98 for a few days IMO
07:21:30 * elliott used Windows 95 in a fullscreen VM for about a week once
07:21:51 <Bike> is that like some kind of monastic challenge
07:21:56 <Jafet> Call it an art installation
07:22:20 <elliott> Bike: it was actually interesting
07:22:32 <Bike> how so?
07:22:52 <Bike> well, i suppose you'd learn about a lot of software incompatibilities, for a boring start
07:22:55 <Jafet> You can broadcast it, but I don't know if Windows 98 can do screen capture
07:23:01 <elliott> well it's interesting in that windows 95 basically invented the iteration of the windowed GUI that people are still using
07:23:04 <elliott> or at least were until recently
07:23:16 <elliott> and it's interesting to see what it does differently and how it's so much worse in a bunch of ways but also a bit better in some others
07:23:30 <elliott> and also you get to learn that some software is actually, like, still released for windows 95
07:23:44 <Bike> Jafet: presumably if it's running in a vm you can manage it
07:23:48 <elliott> at the time you could run recent releases of at least two browsers modern enough to browse pretty much any site on windows 95
07:24:03 <elliott> and it's kind of crazy that that presumably actually gets tested
07:24:06 <Bike> which browsers...?
07:24:19 <Bike> well, i guess it's like how half of china is still using ie4 or w/e, huh
07:24:19 <elliott> Bike: seamonkey and opera
07:24:19 <Sgeo> Opera probably
07:24:30 <elliott> I think Opera still supports 95
07:24:55 <Bike> when did microsoft stop supporting 95?
07:25:00 <Sgeo> I think Opera 9 does and 10 doesn't?
07:25:14 <elliott> Bike: 2001
07:25:48 <Sgeo> Opera 12 (!) does not support Windows 95
07:26:01 <Sgeo> The fact that it's on 12 now makes me tempted to try it again
07:26:13 <Bike> hm, i like the idea of you doing this when you were six, so i'm gonna go with that in spite of reason
07:26:27 <elliott> Bike: this was like uh 2009? 2010?
07:26:31 <elliott> shit I can't tell the years from each other
07:26:49 <elliott> also what kind of VM could run 95 in 2001
07:27:15 <Bike> what kind of six year old could run 95 in a VM in 2001
07:27:25 <kmc> i ran windows in vmware in 2002 - 2003
07:27:27 <kmc> worked all right
07:28:41 <Sgeo> kmc were you six years old also why am i channeling monqy
07:28:58 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com).
07:29:21 <Jafet> Let us now have a moment of silence, to commemorate the age before VT-x
07:29:26 <Bike> hi
07:30:03 <monqy> sgeo????
07:30:23 <Jafet> That was a fast channel
07:30:32 <elliott> Bike: i think the only thing i remember doing when i was six is um
07:30:34 <elliott> having an operation
07:30:50 <Bike> did you live
07:31:03 <Bike> what was operated
07:31:33 -!- asiekierka has quit (Excess Flood).
07:31:39 -!- asiekierka has joined.
07:31:57 <elliott> no I died
07:31:58 <elliott> R. I. P.
07:32:11 <Bike> :(
07:32:18 <elliott> Really Incredibly Perished
07:37:52 <Sgeo> "First of all I will only advocate the use of pure prolog - that means no recursion, lists, forall's, and any other features."
07:38:03 <Sgeo> .... does recursion not count as part of pure Prolog?
07:38:04 <Sgeo> What?
07:38:21 <elliott> it's a good job you came to #mindreaders to ask that question
07:38:43 <monqy> a good thing too
07:38:46 <Sgeo> "If you're working in prolog the entirety of computer science is irrelevant "
07:38:48 <Bike> "pure"
07:38:49 <Sgeo> ...o....k
07:39:05 <Sgeo> I should probably stop reading this now
07:39:11 <monqy> my mind reading is telling me you're baffled
07:39:17 <Sgeo> http://eliminatingwork.blogspot.com/2010/02/why-prolog-is-by-far-best-most.html
07:39:26 <Bike> why'd you link it
07:39:56 <Bike> reading isn't a tag team operation, you can stop without getting other people to stop
07:40:10 <Bike> start. whatever
07:40:37 <monqy> um since when
07:40:51 <Bike> timaeus
07:42:07 <elliott> Bike: you clearly have **NO IDEA** how #esoteric works
07:43:11 <Bike> i'm an idealist :(
07:43:39 <kmc> huh i had to explicitly tell windows that i have a PCI bus
07:44:54 <Fiora> instead of like. ISA?
07:45:24 <kmc> beats me
07:45:36 <Sgeo> What's a good popular Prolog-like language that isn't Mercury?
07:45:51 <Bike> prolog?
07:46:08 <Sgeo> Ideally better than Prolog, with different possible search strategies
07:46:17 <monqy> what does popular mean
07:46:19 <monqy> what does good mean
07:46:22 <monqy> what does better mean
07:46:25 <Bike> oh or Oz I guess
07:46:34 <kmc> is this where "prolog-like" means "logic programming language" the way that "lisp-like" means "functional programming language"?
07:46:42 <Bike> lol.
07:46:55 <elliott> prolog-like means "erlang"
07:46:57 <Sgeo> kmc, I guess I am looking for a logic programming language.
07:47:10 <Bike> so what's wrong with prolog
07:47:10 <elliott> the only non-prolog language anyone has ever specifically tried to make like prolog
07:47:12 <monqy> how about curry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
07:47:12 <Bike> or mercury
07:47:17 <kmc> i'm looking for a haskell-like programming language, meaning that it supports nesting multi-line comments
07:47:52 <Bike> hm i should stare in confusion at that paper about implementing prolog in hardware on a VAX again
07:48:00 <kmc> oh good job windows
07:48:16 <kmc> uninstall IDE controller driver, reboot, try to install driver, cannot see CD-ROM
07:48:42 <elliott> Bike: do you know about the Reduceron
07:48:48 <kmc> why is installing Windows 98 in 2012 exactly as painful as installing Linux in 1998 and vice versa
07:48:49 <elliott> it currently holds the title for Coolest Fuckin Thing
07:49:00 <Bike> oh fpga
07:49:03 <Bike> neat (no i hadn't)
07:49:08 <elliott> http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/reduceron/
07:49:08 * Sgeo decides that he should attempt to understand Logtalk
07:49:17 <elliott> yeah it basically does graph reduction in hardware
07:49:21 <kmc> personally i'm working on the record for Most Times Rebooted In Windows Install
07:49:22 <Bike> AND the name isn't fucking moronic
07:49:25 <elliott> "haskell cpu"
07:49:27 <Bike> it's like christmas
07:49:44 <elliott> also the fpga itself is specced in haskell!
07:49:55 <Sgeo> Why would installing Windows 98 in 2012 be any less painful than installing Windows 98 in 1998?
07:49:55 <Bike> hahaha, the first paper i hover over is actually a .lhs
07:49:59 <elliott> they have a library which spits out an unreadable ten kajillion line vhdl file
07:50:04 <elliott> which is just a bunch of gates
07:50:04 <elliott> forever
07:50:08 -!- buffer has left.
07:50:17 <elliott> and then write the cpu in terms of that
07:50:41 <Bike> fuck we're one step closer to hardware people having no fucking clue what's going on either
07:50:44 <Bike> hooray
07:50:56 <monqy> is the joke that
07:51:01 <elliott> our own ais523 also does work with compiling functional languages to hardware
07:51:03 <Bike> yes. yes that is the joke
07:51:14 <elliott> the stuff he works on has substructural types!!! it's great
07:51:27 <Bike> the hell is a substructural type
07:51:40 <elliott> it's when your type system is a substructural logic
07:51:54 <Bike> fuuuuuuuck
07:52:02 <kmc> *bonghit noises*
07:52:10 <elliott> hey guys remember when we set the topic and a few weeks later it turns out ais523 won $25k because of it
07:52:13 <elliott> goo dtimes
07:52:16 <kmc> what
07:52:22 <elliott> kmc: http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/
07:52:25 <Bike> oh, is that why he did the wolfram thing?
07:52:32 <elliott> that got put in the topic and then he solved it
07:52:40 <Bike> #esoteric is the cutting edge of research.
07:52:40 <oonbotti> Nothing here
07:52:42 <elliott> and we only found out it was him after it got all over the internet
07:52:48 <Bike> hey fuck you oonbotti.
07:52:54 <kmc> wait, ais523 won that??
07:52:59 <Bike> wha
07:53:03 <kmc> hahaha
07:53:04 <kmc> nice
07:53:07 <Bike> that's like the first thing i heard in this channel how did you not know
07:53:34 <kmc> oh this is pretty old
07:53:36 <kmc> that's why i did not hear
07:53:54 <elliott> fun fact: he did all the code in perl but wolfram insisted on rewriting it in mathematica
07:53:59 <elliott> and when ais523 tried to test the mathematica code
07:54:06 <elliott> (that wolfram research wrote)
07:54:07 <elliott> mathematica segfaulted
07:54:10 <Bike> so, is there a non-idiotic definition of "smallest turing machine" here
07:54:20 <elliott> so they have an appendix with mathematica code in that paper that afaik has not actually been tested
07:54:33 <kmc> hahaha
07:54:35 <kmc> oh wolfram
07:54:37 <Bike> oh it's the product thing isn't it. eh
07:54:51 <elliott> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Turing_machine#Smallest_machines
07:55:09 <Bike> right
07:55:17 <elliott> ais523's proof is kind of freaky
07:55:26 <elliott> it's TC but you have to give it an infinite, non-repeating initial pattern
07:55:27 <Bike> "The proof of universality for Wolfram's 2-state 3-symbol Turing machine further extends the notion of weak universality by allowing certain non-periodic initial configurations." oh, that's neat
07:55:39 <elliott> but that pattern can be generated by a weak (not even close to TC) machine
07:55:46 <Bike> did it ever get published anywhere or am i going to have to wrestle wolfram for it?
07:55:53 <elliott> and hence endless flamewars over whether it counts or not
07:56:05 <elliott> Bike: http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/TM23Proof.pdf
07:56:11 <Bike> awesome
07:56:14 <elliott> it's meant to be published in wolfram's pet journal I think
07:56:17 <elliott> for like the past infinity yeras
07:56:40 <Bike> yeah, i saw that before, s why i asked
07:56:48 <Bike> i had a friend ask for a preprint, i'll pass this on as i stumble through it
07:57:12 <elliott> did someone actually tell you about this, I have no recollection of it
07:57:50 <Bike> I think it was mentioned casually and I did my asking questions thing.
07:58:03 <elliott> that's really not a good thing to do around here
07:58:14 <Bike> i'm a rebel who doesn't play by the rules
07:58:42 <Bike> ugh fuck i'm under too may levels of irony here, sorry, back in a bit
07:58:43 -!- Bike has left.
07:58:56 <elliott> R. I. P.
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08:02:11 <elliott> kmc: i was literally just about to type T KMCCCHAT
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08:02:41 <kmc> nooo it segfaults
08:02:53 <elliott> so what vm are you using
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08:05:36 <elliott> Bike: welcome back
08:05:41 <Bike> :')
08:07:04 <elliott> :,(
08:07:17 <kmc> why u gonn exploit me elliott ??
08:07:24 <elliott> kmc: yes
08:07:30 <elliott> i aim to heck ur aim
08:07:32 <Bike> you know i'm not sure what the apostrophe means anyway
08:07:34 <elliott> as all true aim heckers do
08:07:36 <Bike> is it supposed to be snot?
08:07:39 <elliott> Bike: its a stick
08:07:50 <Bike> a plank in my eye. i see.
08:07:52 <Bike> that's deep.
08:07:54 <elliott> yes
08:07:57 <elliott> its also a tear
08:08:09 <GreyKnight> I thought a tear
08:08:17 <Bike> tears aren't pointy, are you stupid
08:08:25 <kmc> a terabyte is a lot more than a gigabyte
08:08:27 <kmc> study shows
08:08:34 <elliott> Bike: yes i'm stupid
08:08:40 <Bike> sad
08:08:55 <GreyKnight> Didn't you know??
08:10:09 <Bike> i am out of the loop
08:10:40 <kmc> gotta sleep now ttyl all
08:11:07 <GreyKnight> (let loop (Bike Bike) (Bike) (loop) )
08:11:32 <GreyKnight> Now you're in!
08:11:38 <Bike> hey that reminds me
08:12:03 <Bike> why in the fuck does scheme use lets to bind a function name like that.
08:12:17 <GreyKnight> Which one?
08:12:18 <elliott> gotta shoehorn it in somewhere
08:12:24 <GreyKnight> Bike or loop?
08:12:40 <Bike> loop
08:12:42 <elliott> gotta shoehorn it in Bike
08:12:42 <Bike> named let i mean
08:12:43 <GreyKnight> I quite like the named-let approach to looping
08:12:58 <Bike> i mean binding the name makes sense
08:13:00 <Bike> just, why with let
08:14:14 <GreyKnight> Well, I guess a single-pass loop is just like a normal let? Dunno
08:14:27 <GreyKnight> Any other ideas for keywords?
08:14:30 <Bike> anyway shouldn't it be (let loop ((Bike Bike)) (Bike) (loop))
08:14:35 <Bike> "keywords"?
08:15:18 <elliott> my approach is use haskell nerds 8) 8) 8) 8 )
08:15:28 <elliott> oo
08:15:34 <elliott> \ /
08:15:34 <oonbotti> ERROR:Stack underflow
08:15:35 <elliott> _
08:15:39 <elliott> FUCK YOU OONBOTTI
08:15:41 <Bike> well played oonbotti
08:15:45 <elliott> oo
08:15:48 <elliott> \ /
08:15:52 <elliott> __
08:15:53 <Bike> also i've Heard haskell is a lisp is this true is it r9rs
08:15:57 <elliott> yes
08:15:59 <elliott> its like how erlang is prolog
08:16:01 <Bike> hot damn
08:16:03 <GreyKnight> Bike: instead of "let"
08:16:06 <elliott> guys remember r6rs
08:16:07 <elliott> ha hah ahaha
08:16:11 <elliott> boy THAT was a good joke
08:16:17 <Bike> what was with r6rs anyway
08:16:27 <Bike> GreyKnight: it's pretty basic sugar around letrec innit
08:16:40 <elliott> r6rs never happened it was just a really awful hallucination
08:16:50 <Bike> you're cruel
08:17:07 <Bike> anyway but seriously i haven't read it or anything, what's the deal
08:17:14 <elliott> well have you read r5rs
08:17:17 <elliott> or at least do you know things about r5rs
08:17:19 <GreyKnight> Bike: I *mean* some other way to denote named-let
08:17:33 <Bike> i know what it is and that's about it
08:17:41 <Bike> and i've heard r6rs is like nine thousand pages long or whatever
08:17:55 <elliott> well
08:17:56 <Bike> GreyKnight: i dunno. "recur"?
08:18:03 <elliott> you should read r5rs some time because it's really pretty amazing
08:18:16 <elliott> and then you can just glance at r6rs and pick a few pages out and you'll see why it was a disaster as a follow-up to r5rs
08:18:17 <Bike> and r6rs is i take it not amazing
08:18:25 <Bike> namazing
08:18:30 <elliott> not saying r6rs is necessarily an awful language or anything
08:18:56 <elliott> but r5rs was like the perfect midpoint between a research language, a teaching language, and a programming language
08:19:09 <elliott> and the spec is really tiny and well-written and precise compared to most languages
08:19:19 * Bike glances through. vector-sort! but not list-sort!. random
08:19:21 <elliott> and then r6rs just decided to make it into a programming language
08:19:31 <Bike> no!!
08:19:39 <elliott> so you get a new type for a vector of bytes because idk performance
08:19:42 <Bike> http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs-lib/r6rs-lib-Z-H-10.html#node_chap_9 ahahahaha
08:19:43 <elliott> and a big module system
08:20:05 <Bike> i thought schemers just used racket anyway now
08:20:06 <elliott> and a bunch of standard libraries for stuff like IO and hashtables
08:20:24 <elliott> now the problem it tried to address was real -
08:20:34 <elliott> there's a bunch of scheme implementations based off r5rs and they like to roll their own way to do lots of basic stuff
08:20:46 <elliott> but it doesn't really work as "the unified R5RS follow-up"
08:20:47 <Bike> that is like, the #1 thing i've heard about scheme -_-
08:21:01 <Bike> "it's cool but there are forty iplementations and they're never compatible so uh"
08:21:06 <elliott> it's a different language that only really hits one of the three points that r5rs did all three of
08:21:10 <elliott> that happens to be based on R5RS
08:21:30 <elliott> Racket itself has diverged pretty far from R5RS and R6RS both
08:21:35 <elliott> it's basically a completely different thing now
08:21:39 <elliott> hence their rename
08:21:41 <Bike> yeah i know that
08:21:49 <GreyKnight> So basically r6rs is yet another variant of r5rs :v
08:21:59 <fizzie> R7RS is kind of going back; draft 6 is an 81-page PDF and looks a lot more like R5RS.
08:21:59 <elliott> anyway Scheme was never exactly popular as a practical language so I don't know how to ascertain whether schemers just use racket now
08:22:03 <elliott> but I don't think it's really true
08:22:10 <GreyKnight> fizzie: yay
08:22:22 <elliott> fizzie: are they still going with the small scheme / big scheme division?
08:22:32 <elliott> I found that dissatisfactory but better than R6RS
08:22:44 <fizzie> elliott: I think maybe, but the only thing I've seen so far is things about the "small" language.
08:23:00 <elliott> Bike: anyway there is http://srfi.schemers.org/ which was the conventional standardisation procedure for Scheme libraries
08:23:01 <fizzie> Maybe they'll forget to do the big one.
08:23:06 <elliott> and I mean everybody does SRFI-1
08:23:18 <elliott> and it even has ways to like load libraries and stuff
08:23:21 <elliott> but those aren't as commonly used
08:23:26 <elliott> and everyone implements their own stuff in addition
08:23:33 <elliott> s/Scheme libraries/R5RS libraries/
08:23:33 <Bike> again, what i heard.
08:23:53 <elliott> so yeah you can't really write programs in R5RS
08:24:00 <GreyKnight> What is the small/big division?
08:24:01 <Bike> oh hey, mister shivers again
08:24:03 <elliott> as in "practical programs"
08:24:06 <elliott> that's just how it is
08:24:20 <elliott> but taken in a vacuum the R5RS spec is really something
08:27:12 <elliott> Bike: other reasons to learn the R5RS spec include being able to understand half of what Oleg is going on about
08:27:23 <elliott> (necessary but not sufficient)
08:27:28 <Bike> who the hell is that
08:27:47 <elliott> http://okmij.org/ftp/
08:28:02 <elliott> oleg kiselyov, complete and utter functional programming genius
08:28:08 <Bike> that is a lot of things
08:28:19 <Bike> "The goal of MetaHaskell is convenient and expressive code generation in Haskell that maintains lexical scope and statically ensures the results (even intermediate, open results) are well-formed and well-typed" hm
08:28:28 <Bike> this channel is very discouraging sometimes (often)
08:28:45 <elliott> he is responsible for like 50% of the innovations in both scheme and haskell :P
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08:28:55 <elliott> I am exaggerating but his site really is an amazing resource
08:29:07 <Bike> yes i can see that
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08:29:19 <Bike> fucking hell he even does that linguistics/continuations shit
08:29:51 <Bike> «The following Twelf code formalizes small-step semantics for System F with constants and additional typing rules, closely following the `Syntactic Approach to Type Soundness' with contexts, focusing and redexing» man. man
08:30:50 <Bike> "UNIX pipes as IO monads"
08:31:23 <Bike> euuuuugh
08:32:09 <elliott> don't die
08:32:46 <Bike> fuck all this computer bullshit, i'm so behind. who needs computers anyway. 's bullshit
08:33:06 <GreyKnight> gb2 DOS
08:33:35 <elliott> Bike: if it helps that pipes thing is from 2001!
08:33:40 <elliott> so you've been so behind for ages now
08:33:57 <Bike> so behind in the field of monadic unix
08:34:54 <Bike> "We show how to program with the law of excluded middle. We specifically avoid call/cc, which is overrated." this guy's a joker isn't he
08:35:13 <elliott> oleg is a strong advocate for delimited continuations over call-with-current-continuation
08:35:21 <elliott> http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/
08:35:49 <Bike> oh, i've read some of this before even
08:37:28 <elliott> hmm, I have like five programs I want to write, this is 10x worse than my previous situation of not having anything I want to write
08:37:37 <elliott> now I'll suffer for my laziness
08:38:08 <Bike> "Sendmail as a Turing machine" i don't think any amount of scheme standards would let me understand this
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08:39:17 <Sgeo> Maybe I should learn about Mozart/Oz even if it's dead
08:39:33 <monqy> why/why not/???????
08:39:55 <elliott> Bike: it has begun. you can't escape now
08:41:14 <Bike> fuck you dad i'm just going to stare at these types
08:42:37 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: life is empty).
08:43:55 <elliott> R. I. P.
08:44:02 <monqy> ye
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09:08:51 <Sgeo> Mozard anonymous procedures are verbose :(
09:09:23 <kallisti> cream of beige
09:09:31 <monqy> btw why are you learning omztre
09:12:59 <elliott> you all misspelled mozzarella
09:13:31 <elliott> mmm now i want pizza
09:14:54 <kallisti> I made a pizza
09:14:58 <kallisti> except it was actually an omelette
09:15:06 <kallisti> with cheese and turkey pepperonis
09:15:14 <kallisti> so it was like an egg pizza
09:15:19 <kallisti> egg calzone
09:16:11 <elliott> thats not a pizza
09:16:28 <kallisti> yes
09:19:39 <kallisti> I wonder what it would taste like if you made scrambled eggs and then put it inside an omelette
09:19:47 <kallisti> maybe the texture difference would be significantly better
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09:24:08 <fizzie> If you put scrambled eggs inside a potato, is that an inverse spanish omelette?
09:25:40 <Sgeo> "Warning:The exact syntax for functions as well as their transformation into procedure definitions is defined in the The Oz Notation Reference Manual.
09:25:40 <Sgeo> "
09:25:47 <Sgeo> I have no idea how that is a "Warning"
09:26:03 <Sgeo> The tutorial seems to call any reference to any other portion of the manual a "warning"
09:34:58 <fizzie> Perhaps for technical document-markuppery reasons. Like, they wanted to highlight those, and the only kind of highlighting available was a "warning" thing.
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09:53:10 <GreyKnight> `addquote <kmc> yes Windows 98 installer, please perform a bad blocks scan of your virtual emulated hard drive <kmc> you have no idea how completely i control your so-called reality
09:53:18 <HackEgo> 889) <kmc> yes Windows 98 installer, please perform a bad blocks scan of your virtual emulated hard drive <kmc> you have no idea how completely i control your so-called reality
09:54:03 <elliott> fizzie gets to fix
09:55:46 <fizzie> `quote 889
09:55:48 <HackEgo> 889) <kmc> yes Windows 98 installer, please perform a bad blocks scan of your virtual emulated hard drive <kmc> you have no idea how completely i control your so-called reality
09:56:03 <elliott> wow you fixed it implicitly
09:56:24 <GreyKnight> What happen
09:56:29 <fizzie> I was too ashamed to potentially screw up in public.
09:56:44 <Sgeo> I probably should try to understand Standard ML before AliceML
09:56:44 <fizzie> (Anyway, isn't that kind of thing usually done in the privacy of your own water-closet?)
09:57:27 <fizzie> GreyKnight: There are standards about quote-formatting.
09:57:50 <Sgeo> "By pickling first-class functions, Alice processes can exchange behaviour."
09:58:31 <Sgeo> I can only assume that that's as dangerous to unpickle untrusted functions as it sounds
09:58:35 <GreyKnight> I know
09:58:50 <elliott> you broke them
09:58:53 <GreyKnight> But nobody has written them down so I have to go by memory
10:04:46 <GreyKnight> `quote
10:04:47 <HackEgo> 277) [After a long monologue] <oklopol> i think i have to escape this heated discussion before it becomes a flamewar
10:08:34 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
10:08:47 <AnotherTest> Hello
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10:12:16 <GreyKnight> hi AnotherTest, elliott is being unreasonable today
10:12:39 <kallisti> I don't believe it
10:12:45 <AnotherTest> sounds like elliott
10:15:49 <GreyKnight> !message ais523 I can't believe you forgot to mention Feather in your bio for the 2,3 TM solution
10:16:01 <GreyKnight> Hmm that is the correct command
10:16:12 <GreyKnight> @tell ais523 I can't believe you forgot to mention Feather in your bio for the 2,3 TM solution
10:16:12 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
10:19:39 <elliott> ...you realise it predates Feather
10:20:11 <kallisti> elliott: assuming Feather isn't implemented
10:20:21 <kallisti> once it's implemented then Feather will predate it
10:20:58 <GreyKnight> you realise starting sentences with "you realise" is catty
10:21:38 <kallisti> you realize that catty isatty?
10:21:41 -!- elliott has left.
10:22:07 <GreyKnight> ragepart
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10:25:12 <GreyKnight> @tell elliott also the proof doesn't have a date on it hth
10:25:12 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
10:35:14 <GreyKnight> @tell ais523 also do you still have the perl code before wolfram mathematicaised it?
10:35:15 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
10:39:18 <AnotherTest> "From INTERCAL to LOLCODE: The Esoteric Programming Story is a concept documentary from User:Star651 in 2012. No filming has been done yet, but the concept is down. "
10:39:35 <AnotherTest> Wait a minute... is he really going to film THAT?
10:41:03 <AnotherTest> or am I just not getting the joke
10:41:39 <GreyKnight> Shrug
10:42:01 <olsner> if I were 8 when I got here I might've thought to make a film too
10:45:18 <AnotherTest> maybe. I was never a movie fan though.
10:46:03 <AnotherTest> I though it was going to be a book at first
10:46:59 <AnotherTest> *thought
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11:16:45 <GreyKnight> AGPL is a good idea
11:36:11 <oklopol> http://eliminatingwork.blogspot.fi/2010/02/why-prolog-is-by-far-best-most.html operating systems are computer science?
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12:08:05 <GreyKnight> zzo38: how can I pass a "map" of values to a gopher page? Is there a standard way to encode it in the query string?
12:08:25 <GreyKnight> (a la HTTP's foo=bar&baz=qux encoding)
12:09:46 <nortti> I don't think there is standard but you should be able to do something like
12:10:22 <nortti> foo<TAB>foo=bar<TAB>baz=qux
12:12:51 <nortti> oh wait. that would only work with itemtype 7
12:13:17 <nortti> /path?foo=bar&baz=qux
12:16:25 <GreyKnight> Well assuming both source and target page need to agree anyway, may as well require the target to be type 7? Or is that abusive?
12:18:12 <GreyKnight> Passing a map is really useful (see: webforms)
12:20:20 <nortti> type 7 is searchbox
12:20:23 <nortti> -box
12:21:03 <GreyKnight> Although I guess there's not much in the way of UI for query input?
12:21:22 <GreyKnight> Do most clients just support a single term for type 7?
12:21:33 <nortti> no
12:22:02 <nortti> the exact text you type will be put on request after a tab
12:22:42 <GreyKnight> Right, so just one term then
12:22:50 <nortti> yes
12:23:12 <GreyKnight> So the map syntax would need to be something you type yourself
12:23:12 <zzo38> GreyKnight: There is no standard way to pass a map of values.
12:23:16 <zzo38> It is not supposed to be.
12:23:24 <zzo38> Yes, the map syntax is something you type yourself.
12:23:58 <zzo38> Whatever you type is sent after the tab.
12:25:37 <Sgeo> Hmm, so Ciao has a library that defines a more functional syntax for using functions
12:25:44 <Sgeo> (Ciao being largely Prolog-based)
12:26:40 <GreyKnight> In that case I would probably use "foo: bar, baz: qux" for ease of typing
12:26:43 <GreyKnight> (Borrowed from YAML :-)
12:26:59 <zzo38> Well, you can use whatever works for whatever system you are implementing.
12:27:25 <hagb4rd> guess any kind of serializable date works
12:27:29 <hagb4rd> *data
12:28:02 <GreyKnight> Yes: I just wanted to know if there was already a common way of doing it
12:28:52 <zzo38> I think there is none. In one program (which no longer works, and it is not my fault) it uses key=value;key=value;key=value format.
12:29:20 <zzo38> While in the FurryScript gopher interface, it uses the number of times you want, and then a space and the parameter (both are optional).
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12:37:16 <GreyKnight> Okay!
12:37:53 <zzo38> A client should just allow the user to enter arbitrary printable ASCII text for the query parameter.
12:39:22 <GreyKnight> Yes I see that
12:39:22 <GreyKnight> And of course it is obvious you can ask them to type a given structure if you want to extract several data from it
12:40:42 <zzo38> The server may provide a help option on the same menu as the query option; alternatively, it might display a help menu if the query string is left blank. This depends what you choose to do.
12:41:01 <zzo38> So the client should allow empty query strings (the tab will still be included, though).
12:41:31 <GreyKnight> I just hoped there would be a common way of structuring it so that users can cross-apply knowledge :-( oh well
12:42:13 <zzo38> I think there is actually defined a common way but it is only used for full-text search and it is not necessarily even going to be a search menu.
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12:42:24 <hagb4rd> well there are common ways (pl.) to do it
12:42:39 <GreyKnight> Give me some examples?
12:42:46 <hagb4rd> have the standard get url encoding or json
12:42:49 <hagb4rd> this way
12:43:20 <GreyKnight> Ah
12:43:22 <GreyKnight> Hm user-facing JSON? Boke
12:46:25 <ais523> GreyKnight: actually it was me who mathematica'ised it, they gave me a one year trial version of Mathematica (not even a permanent free copy!) to do the job with
12:46:37 <ais523> the resulting code was correct but an order of n slower than the Perl no matter how I tried to write it
12:46:47 <ais523> then they had one of their in-house people do it, the resulting code was a lot shorter and also wrong
12:47:05 <ais523> but I do indeed still have the Perl, although I wasn't nearly as good at programming then as I am now so it's a bit messy
12:47:07 <GreyKnight> I heard segfaults occurred
12:47:42 <ais523> no, mathematica isn't very prone to segfaulting
12:47:51 <GreyKnight> Well, I'm terrible at Perl too so I won't notice probably :o)
12:47:53 <ais523> I've had more segfaults from Perl (normally due to calling out to libraries written in C)
12:48:10 <ais523> modern perl(1) gives a warning basically saying "don't write code like that, what are you thinking?"
12:48:28 <GreyKnight> Heh
12:48:46 <ais523> is the Perl not in the version on the Wolfram website, though?
12:48:48 <hagb4rd> provoking you to do it anyway
12:48:48 <kallisti> I will notice
12:48:52 <ais523> IIRC they just appended the mathematica to it
12:48:52 <kallisti> I will complain about the perl forever
12:48:58 <ais523> rather than deleting the Perl
12:49:24 <ais523> fun fact: one of the EULA terms and conditions of Mathematica is that you have to credit it if you use it to help you write an academic paper
12:49:50 <ais523> this possibly had the opposite effect to what was intended, in that it caused me to avoid Mathematica until I'd already written the code in another language first, and ran the code only to gain an idea of how correct it was
12:50:00 <ais523> also, I think the 2,3 stuff predates Feather
12:50:11 <GreyKnight> Oh, so it is: the contents on the paper are a bit unclear
12:51:14 <GreyKnight> elliott said something about that too (then we argued and he rageparted :-U)
12:54:35 <GreyKnight> zzo38: does it make sense if I use type 7 to allow users to insert data?
12:54:46 <GreyKnight> Or should I use some other type
12:55:17 <zzo38> GreyKnight: It is OK
12:55:23 <nortti> I don't think you can input data any other way in normal gopher
12:55:54 <GreyKnight> (Also others here who know about this)
12:57:02 <GreyKnight> Fair enough
12:57:31 <GreyKnight> ais523: also, enquiring minds want to know: do you still have a cool beard?
12:57:35 <ais523> yes
12:57:42 <ais523> it still looks much the same
12:58:00 <zzo38> Nevertheless, gopher is not the best way to post data on the server; there are other protocols such as NNTP and FTP, for interactive systems you can use telnet, for secure systems you can use SSH. Gopher is a good way to provide structured read-only data, and possibly can allow some sending as well; I use a type 7 to allow sending comments.
12:58:35 <zzo38> (Only one line though; they are only short comments)
12:58:39 <nortti> zzo38: where you have comment system on gopher?
12:58:48 <GreyKnight> That is the sort of thing I was thinking about
12:59:15 <GreyKnight> I was also thinking about an inference system with a gopher interface
13:00:08 <zzo38> nortti: For example, phlog*a makes a list of messages; the type 1 lines list comments and allow posting a comment using type 7.
13:01:21 <ais523> zzo38: telnet has ssl nowadays
13:01:27 <ais523> although most clients and servers don't support it
13:01:41 <GreyKnight> FSVO "has" then :-P
13:03:07 <zzo38> ais523: I still think SSH provides better security though, than SSL does. But if you don't need SSH features then you can use telnet protocol.
13:06:17 <zzo38> GreyKnight: One kind of hack thing I have done, is that one of the programs serving over this gopher menu allows the user to send files; it requires to use the sprunge command-line tool though if you want to send files, and then the response is sent to my server, and if it not a duplicate, and the file format is correct, it will be accepted.
13:07:01 <zzo38> It is a hack which requires presence of other computers (there may be other problems too), but it works for now.
13:07:25 <hagb4rd> it's kind of working nails with a screwdriver but y not
13:10:07 <GreyKnight> What does sprunge do? I didn't quite understand
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13:10:58 <kallisti> GreyKnight: pastebin site
13:11:02 <kallisti> you can use it on command line via curl
13:11:12 <kallisti> I have it aliased as "sprunge"
13:11:22 <ais523> I just use my bash history
13:11:25 <kallisti> so I just blah blah blah | sprunge | xclip
13:11:29 <ais523> control-r sprunge then edit the commands as appropriate
13:11:40 <GreyKnight> Oh right
13:11:52 <ais523> GreyKnight: and yeah, sprunge is a pastebin site that can only be posted to via the API
13:11:58 <ais523> so it naturally becomes programmer-heavy
13:12:30 <GreyKnight> So you just send the paste ID to the gopher server and bob's your uncle
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13:13:58 <zzo38> Yes.
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13:16:18 <zzo38> With enough pipes it could send the paste ID (it accepts both the full URL (which sprunge responds with) or just the filename) to my computer using netcat.
13:17:32 <zzo38> (Simply prefix "quiz.menu*B" (without quotes) and a tab character, to the response from sprunge, and send that to port 70 on my computer.)
13:17:44 <GreyKnight> This looks useful for uploading files to HackEgo too
13:18:03 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose it can be used for those kind of things too.
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13:23:28 <ais523> yeah, it's commonly used for BF Joust programs
13:23:38 <ais523> that's EgoBot not HackEgo, but same principle
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13:52:30 <GreyKnight> GopherVR looks kinda cool
13:53:37 <GreyKnight> Although something about its layout doesn't seem to quite have the gopher nature? Can't put my finger on it
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14:14:44 <GreyKnight> ais523: today, all my sentences on #nethack are three words long
14:14:55 <ais523> GreyKnight: :)
14:15:38 <GreyKnight> (Nick prefixes don't count)
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18:00:22 <oerjan> <Bike> and in dead cities, djikstra lies dreaming <-- nah he and chtuhlu are joining forces to create ubiquitous spell checking (also madness)
18:03:20 <GreyKnight> Unfortunately Cthulhu prefers writing in COBOL so there are tensions on the project
18:03:45 * oerjan swats GreyKnight for possibly missing the joke -----###
18:04:54 * GreyKnight zaps oerjan with a cattle-prod "they both have difficult-to-spell names" -----E**
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18:05:56 <GreyKnight> Now we're getting swatted for *possible* offences! This is intolerable
18:06:05 <oerjan> also "chtuhlu" gives thousands of google hits
18:06:11 <Bike> possibly intolerable
18:06:25 * GreyKnight intolerates it
18:07:07 <oerjan> not as many as djikstra, though
18:07:47 <oerjan> 'sokay, you're not meant to tolerate it
18:08:36 <Bike> fuck, i misordered the i and j
18:08:57 <GreyKnight> thatsthejoke.gif
18:09:19 <Bike> yes but i thought i'd gotten used to the damn name
18:09:38 <fizzie> You're swaptose-intolerant?
18:09:43 <fizzie> Swattose.
18:09:53 <fizzie> fungot: Why do I always fail?
18:09:55 <fungot> fizzie: used to ride at anchor. after a long and isolated family history a brother, his twin sister, and their realm for the others to stand back. he needed time to steady himself, and which fnord fancy and mathematics alike. it was dark. one evening as i strolled on victoria embankment for some needed air, i watched one of
18:10:15 <GreyKnight> Bike: ijk, in alphabetical order. Easy :-)
18:11:02 <fizzie> Dykestra.
18:18:40 <GreyKnight> Did elliott not come back from ragequit yet? :-I
18:19:32 <Bike> ragepart?
18:19:45 <GreyKnight> ragefoo
18:22:49 <fizzie> Oh, you've driven him away again?
18:23:24 <GreyKnight> Did I do it before :-?
18:23:31 <fizzie> It was the plural "you".
18:23:46 <fizzie> Including myself, I suppose.
18:24:07 <GreyKnight> so "we" then :-P
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18:55:58 <kmc> http://www.well.com/conf/inkwell.vue/topics/459/State-of-the-World-2013-Bruce-St-page01.html
18:56:14 <kmc> State of the World 2013 with Bruce Sterling and friends
18:58:46 <GreyKnight> Oh I forgot this place existed
18:59:43 <GreyKnight> Hey they talk about lenses ;-)
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19:16:32 <GreyKnight> TLDR :-)
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19:45:23 <GreyKnight> @tell elliott Come back! Let's kiss and make up.
19:45:24 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
19:46:43 <GreyKnight> fungot: how was your day?
19:46:44 <fungot> GreyKnight: the lovecraft library wishes to extend its gratitude to eulogio garca recalde for transcribing this text. he had been
19:46:55 <fizzie> ...
19:46:59 <GreyKnight> >_>
19:47:01 <fizzie> fungot: Don't quote *that*.
19:47:03 <fungot> fizzie: johansen and his men landed at a sloping fnord on this monstrous acropolis, and clambered fnord up over titan fnord blocks which could have caused the odd fnord on wonderful events by the emperor hadrian's greek fnord, phlegon. it is only fair to add that the specimens were laid out on the moor when it rains. their faces, knowing it was on thursday, 14 may 1908, were not composed altogether of flesh and blood. they had
19:47:13 <GreyKnight> Epic Megafail
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19:48:47 <fizzie> It wasn't as bad as the file:// URI quote.
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20:01:03 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> i'm looking for a haskell-like programming language, meaning that it supports nesting multi-line comments
20:01:07 <HackEgo> 890) <kmc> i'm looking for a haskell-like programming language, meaning that it supports nesting multi-line comments
20:01:35 <oerjan> oh no fungot is talking about me
20:01:37 <fungot> oerjan: by noon carter reached the farthermost pile of embers and camped for the night was near. once a student of reanimation, this silent trunk was now gruesomely called upon to aid the private detectives. in this story, and as i looked again my recognition was mixed with a queer belated sort of remorse for bygone crudities. his drinking, of course, fall into several fnord some of it in wilbur whateley must have been there fo
20:01:54 <fizzie> oerjan: What was it like, landing on a sloping fnord of that monstrous acropolis?
20:01:55 <fungot> oerjan: " for know you, that is, one would call it climbing if the thing did happen, then man must be there.
20:02:08 <fizzie> It keeps happening.
20:02:18 <oerjan> fizzie: terrifying hth
20:03:43 -!- Taneb has joined.
20:04:17 <fizzie> The channel as seen by fungot's mind's eye: http://sprunge.us/EIDc
20:04:18 <fungot> fizzie: degradation of skill that nothing in the chaos that transcends form and force and symmetry. i learned whence cthulhu first came, and squire sawyer whateley, as fnord, the fnord of
20:05:36 <GreyKnight> wait what
20:05:47 <GreyKnight> oerjan: why do you sound like fungot
20:05:47 <fungot> GreyKnight: of the latter and seated myself upon an aged, discolored gravestone close by the demon-star.
20:05:59 <GreyKnight> hm I suppose that was a bad test
20:07:25 <monqy> where did that mysterious second oerjan line com from????fungot
20:07:26 <fungot> monqy: there has been naught save ice and snow for thousands of years of blindness the impenetrable darkness of sin-steeped night the pitch-black darkness of fnord
20:07:37 <fizzie> And that's where it came from.
20:07:43 <GreyKnight> oerjan: does this trigger it
20:07:51 <GreyKnight> if not will it annoy oerjan with beeps
20:07:58 <monqy> GreyKnight: look at the http://sprunge.us/EIDc
20:08:11 <GreyKnight> I saw! I was trying to recreate :-/
20:08:15 <fizzie> And it's a known issue.
20:08:27 <fizzie> Happens quite rarely after fungot generates and excessively long sentence.
20:08:28 <fungot> fizzie: he acquired a habit of writing long documents of some sort. there were
20:08:28 <GreyKnight> plz splain ty
20:08:38 <oerjan> my client doesn't beep.
20:08:43 <GreyKnight> fungot: oh, you can debug yourself now?
20:08:44 <fungot> GreyKnight: one must look back at charles ward's earlier life as at something belonging as much to the past. i drew close and paused, and his visits were becoming fewer and fewer. when school closed the gardners were virtually cut off from the brow of the hill near its foot. it was very
20:08:46 <fizzie> I'm not exactly sure what's wrong, but I suspect it is what they call a bug in the code.
20:09:04 <fizzie> Or is that a shell in the mind of a ghost, or something.
20:09:18 <GreyKnight> The good thing is that fungot recognises he has acquired a habit of writing long texts.
20:09:19 <fungot> GreyKnight: somewhere i heard a clock strike fnord ours, for that profession was nothing less than the tangible substance of earth's supreme terror the nightmare corpse-city of r'lyeh, that was the latin for " guards" and " horrid fnord" prejudice we find in its most advanced and horrible fnord and the
20:14:14 <oerjan> > length ":oerjan!otr�a�@�s�oc����}v���nu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no fungot is "
20:14:14 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
20:14:15 <fungot> oerjan: faceless creatures now. he had grown as large as a child, although she is still unable to recall the speaker from ramblings, piece out scientific points which he knew had tilted both world and personal planes in throwing him back to 1883, contained those symbols which were meant. and now the moon came out.
20:14:34 <oerjan> oops those were not just spaces
20:14:48 <fizzie> It's some bytes.
20:14:59 <oerjan> > length ":oerjan!otr a @ s oc }v nu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no fungot is "
20:15:00 <fungot> oerjan: the region now entered by the police, satisfied that they had painted on the sides and fnord which made the professors so carelessly sceptical, for they never believed such things. ever since his son had commenced to provide. thomas moore adapted from such sources the legend of fnord,
20:15:00 <lambdabot> 70
20:15:20 <fizzie> There are three bytes between "otr" and "a", and so on.
20:15:25 <fizzie> Or maybe not.
20:15:30 <oerjan> oh?
20:15:39 <fizzie> I think my paste recoded into Unicode replacement-characters.
20:15:50 <fizzie> I suppose they were likely single bytes originally.
20:16:11 <fizzie> But there are so many BITS in SYSTEMS these days, I can't know if something could've gotten recoded.
20:16:11 <FreeFull> > length ""
20:16:13 <lambdabot> 0
20:16:21 <oerjan> > length ":oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no fungot is "
20:16:22 <fungot> oerjan: suddenly i rose, put on my hat and coat, and they have conquered." and, of course, very faint, and despite an age of waiting the vapours seemed to lighted, and in
20:16:23 <lambdabot> 71
20:16:24 <FreeFull> > "" == []
20:16:24 <fizzie> It came through two screen sessions and a paste, after all.
20:16:25 <lambdabot> True
20:16:40 <FreeFull> ""==[] looks like a weird face
20:16:54 <oerjan> it _seems_ to have just overwritten some of those
20:17:10 <fizzie> > [] :: [Char]
20:17:11 <lambdabot> ""
20:17:27 <fizzie> Yes, but I don't know with what, and why that screws up the splitting.
20:18:14 <fizzie> The place where it generates things is a line, and there's nothing special or interesting on that line, so just generating a longer-that-can-be-output thing shouldn't overwrite anything important.
20:18:45 <fizzie> Could of course be the bit that generates the actual string out of the tokens, that's at least near the input, I think. But it's still a bit weird.
20:18:56 <oerjan> oh there's actually one of those characters that _is_ two bytes
20:19:26 <oerjan> between v and nu.no there are just 3 chars but g.nt is four
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20:21:40 <fizzie> Actual bytes from screen hardcopy for interested parties: http://sprunge.us/aZOX
20:21:54 <fizzie> It's mostly just fd.
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20:23:49 <oerjan> well that's missing a part. what i _do_ note is that the fizzie message proper seems completely unchanged, just shifted 71 places
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20:24:20 <oerjan> so what i'm wondering is if some x offset is not getting reset properly?
20:24:33 <GreyKnight> So what we're saying is it's all fizzie's fault
20:24:49 <fizzie> It could be any sort of thing in the code to split and copy IRC messages out of the input buffer it maintains.
20:25:01 <oerjan> although that doesn't explain why parts of the oerjan message are garbled _other_ than the overwritten part
20:25:07 <fizzie> Though I haven't yet heard sensible hypotheses why it'd trigger only after babble-generation.
20:25:47 <fizzie> I mean, if you look at lines 125-169 of fungot.b98, that's all pretty clear code without any obvious mishaps there.
20:25:48 <fungot> fizzie: " say, do i look that simple? what are you driving at?" and as he did
20:26:37 <oerjan> ^source
20:26:38 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
20:27:13 <oerjan> IF YOU SAY SO
20:27:46 <ais523> <GreyKnight> So what we're saying is it's all fizzie's fault ← you can't do that, kerio is the designated scapegoat for everything
20:28:00 <GreyKnight> what about daniel_t?
20:29:51 <oerjan> who was kerio again.
20:31:01 <GreyKnight> just zis guy
20:32:37 <ais523> GreyKnight: I'd link you to the qdb post but it's down
20:32:56 <ais523> basically, it started off by talking about how kerio was a perfect scapegoat and why
20:33:11 <ais523> and followed up by saying that daniel_t wasn't a good scapegoat, but luckily that most of the problems with nethack 4 were actually his fault
20:33:14 <ais523> so one wasn't needed :)
20:36:29 <buffer> hmm
20:40:10 <GreyKnight> oh yes
20:40:13 <GreyKnight> I remember now
20:44:51 <Bike> there's a nethack 4?
20:45:10 <GreyKnight> try #nethack4
20:45:38 <Bike> can i not
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20:46:08 <ais523> Bike: it's the fans banding together to make an attempt at a successor to 3.4.3, because the main devs have abandoned it
20:46:18 <ais523> well, to start with it was just me, but lots of people joined in
20:46:45 <Bike> what are the notable changes?
20:46:53 <GreyKnight> (which is BASICALLY how NetHack started off from Hack, so, fair do's)
20:47:17 <Bike> i was kind of wondering what ever happened to nethack, since, it hasn't updated since before i was born or w/e
20:47:54 <GreyKnight> :-o
20:48:15 <ais523> Bike: are you like 8 years old?
20:48:28 <ais523> but so far, it's mostly interface and internals improvements
20:48:36 <oerjan> so i take it nethack and c-intercal development is doomed to merge now.
20:48:45 <Bike> oh, so the boring-but-important stuff. that's cool
20:49:13 <oerjan> what's about people being 8 years old on the channel today
20:49:25 <GreyKnight> INTERCAL: the roguelike
20:49:32 <GreyKnight> The rabbit hits!
20:50:19 <ais523> oerjan: nah, I'm keeping NetHack and C-INTERCAL separate so far
20:50:23 <ais523> I guess I might port C-INTERCAL to aimake
20:50:26 <oerjan> _so_ far.
20:50:35 <ais523> but there's no real reason to given that it has the best autotools build system ever
20:50:46 <ais523> it took me a while to understand autotools
20:50:51 <Sgeo> ais523, have the devs explicitely abandoned it, or has it just not been updated for 8 years?
20:50:52 <ais523> and why people hardly ever use it properly
20:50:52 <GreyKnight> oerjan: yes, I noticed that ominous statement too
20:50:55 <ais523> Sgeo: they're still working on it
20:51:04 <ais523> just they aren't getting very far
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20:51:16 <ais523> we know for a fact that they're a long way from producing a releasable version
20:51:21 <ais523> we don't know why, although there are some obvious guesses
20:51:32 <ais523> it's hard to know, because you have to buy information with bug reports
20:51:43 <Sgeo> o.O
20:52:23 <GreyKnight> when did we get the fact that they're a long way off?
20:52:35 <ais523> GreyKnight: like early 2012
20:53:37 <GreyKnight> interesting
20:53:50 <Sgeo> What did they say exactly?
20:53:54 <GreyKnight> is their message copied up anywhere?
20:54:01 * GreyKnight is slowpoke
20:54:48 <quintopia> no. you can't be slowpoke. ais523 already claimed that name. (hi fungot)
20:54:48 <lambdabot> quintopia: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
20:54:49 <fungot> quintopia: kuranes came very suddenly upon his old world of childhood. he had even wondered, at sawyer's funeral, how the curse had been fulfilled since that time when charles le sorcier? the dread of years was lifted from my shoulder, for i fancied there was contained within it a sort of
20:55:15 <ais523> GreyKnight: people are a little uneasy about making private messages public, and I've only heard it secondhand
20:56:04 <ais523> I remember when I submitted a bug in the engraving code, and one of the devs replied saying that they'd been trying to persuade someone to fix it for months and got nowhere
20:56:06 <GreyKnight> well fair enough
20:56:19 <ais523> you can draw conclusions from that, too :)
20:56:31 <Sgeo> ais523, so submit a patch to them, see if they'll use it?
20:56:40 <GreyKnight> I submitted a fix to the Qt port macro system many years ago and got a similar response, actually
20:56:58 <ais523> Sgeo: it's not a trivial fix
20:57:02 <ais523> but if I fix it in NH4
20:57:03 <Sgeo> Ah
20:57:08 <ais523> I guess I'll submit them a patch against NH4
20:57:29 <ais523> and to be really snarky, quote back the line to them about making sure that everyone's working on the same version of the code
20:57:48 <GreyKnight> give them a link to the repository so they can sync up :-)
20:58:26 <ais523> If you've changed something to get NetHack to run on your system, it's likely that others have done it by making slightly different modifications. By routing your patches through the development team, we should be able to avoid making everyone else choose among variant patches claiming to do the same thing, to keep most of the copies of 3.4 synchronized by means of official patches, and to maintain the painfully-created file organization. (This
20:58:28 <ais523> process has been working since the time when everyone just posted their own patches to 2.3. At that time, there were no archived bug-fixes to give to people who got 2.3 after its initial release, so the same bugs kept being discovered by new batches of people.) We have been successful in preventing this from happening since the 3.0 release. Please cooperate to keep this from happening to 3.4.
20:59:16 <ais523> […] All of this amounts to the following: If you decide to apply a free-lanced patch to your 3.4 code, you are on your own. In our own patches, we will assume that your code is synchronized with ours.
20:59:46 <GreyKnight> hm I think that is already happening to 3.4 actually
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20:59:58 <ais523> GreyKnight: I quoted that for irony
21:00:35 <GreyKnight> o rite
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21:04:27 <ais523> anyway, that suggestion of fixing the engraving stuff myself seems like a /really/ good idea
21:04:42 <ais523> it may be valuable enough to buy a lot more info
21:04:50 <ais523> grammartree needs doing first
21:05:02 <ais523> at least partly because the resulting patch needs to not cleanly apply to 3.4.3
21:05:09 <ais523> for the plan I have in mind
21:05:37 <Sgeo> Did ais523 just become an evil mastermind?
21:05:54 <GreyKnight> dibs on hunchback
21:06:02 <ais523> Sgeo: I don't know; I've had evil mastermind-like qualities pretty much forever
21:06:05 <ais523> but I'm not actually evil
21:06:14 <ais523> and that would be something of a prerequisite for being an evil mastermind
21:06:25 -!- Taneb has joined.
21:06:45 <GreyKnight> Are you sure? We should test. Where's my evilometer...
21:06:47 -!- nooodl_ has joined.
21:07:14 <ais523> GreyKnight: just ask anyone who's known me for long enough
21:07:22 <ais523> I'm as close to lawful good as you'll find in real life, really
21:07:25 <ais523> including the insufferability :)
21:09:18 <GreyKnight> Us LG types make the best evil masterminds if we turn evil :-)
21:10:28 <Sgeo> Are LG people capable of driving in the US?
21:10:42 <ais523> Sgeo: many of us refuse to visit the US
21:10:50 <ais523> if we were there, though, I don't see why we wouldn't drive
21:10:58 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that I've heard that it's impossible to safely drive at or below the speed limit on US highways
21:10:59 <ais523> well, assuming that we drove in general (I don't, don't have the coordination to)
21:11:08 <ais523> ah, that
21:11:14 <Bike> speed limits are kind of pointless anyway
21:11:49 <ais523> in the UK you can, but you basically have to crawl along the outside lane and pretend to be a tourist or a lorry
21:11:51 <fizzie> What are LG people? People using products from LG Electronics?
21:11:55 <GreyKnight> Sgeo: wat
21:11:56 <fizzie> ...oh, lawful good.
21:11:59 <ais523> fizzie: lawful good, it's a D&D thing
21:12:11 <fizzie> It wasn't uppercased, I didn't manage to glimpse it.
21:12:20 <Bike> GreyKnight: in the US it's usual to drive five or ten miles above the limit.
21:12:29 <ais523> sufficiently many HGVs in the UK are physically incapable of going over the speed limit that people are used to the possibility
21:12:42 <GreyKnight> So, what, they've mistaken it for a *lower* limit?
21:13:02 <Sgeo> Bike, miles + mph = ?
21:13:10 <Bike> bite me, sgeo.
21:13:19 <fizzie> It's very possible to drive at the speed limit in Finland, FWIW. You'll get a reasonable number of slightly miffed motorists thinking you're a wuss, I suppose, but it's still possible.
21:13:44 <ais523> fizzie: that's basically the UK situation
21:13:48 <fizzie> Also you might be contributing negatively to overall road safety due to needless overtaking, but still.
21:14:33 <GreyKnight> Sgeo: this gives me one more reason never to go to the USA, I didn't need one but thanks :-P
21:15:18 <Sgeo> GreyKnight, I don't know if the US situation is worse than the UK/Finland situation
21:15:21 <Sgeo> I have never driven
21:15:27 <ais523> Sgeo: I've also heard that it's impossible to not drive in the US
21:15:32 <ais523> or live with someone who can drive you around
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21:15:41 <Bike> GreyKnight: going over the speed limits isn't the real problem in the US, it's that driving ed is rather lax.
21:15:44 <ais523> because in most areas, everything is so spread out
21:15:45 <GreyKnight> Boke
21:15:48 <GreyKnight> boke boke boke
21:16:04 <ais523> btw, it was recently discovered that speed cameras cost more to run than the revenue they bring in, in the UK
21:16:09 <ais523> everyone was surprised
21:16:11 <fizzie> We were kind of thinking of doing a "fly to east coast, drive to west coast, fly back" kind of a trip maybe once, but the driving there has sounded kind of unappealing, and anyway it's a long flight.
21:16:45 <ais523> fizzie: and you have the problem of the car ending up somewhere other than where it started
21:16:53 <ais523> (this is one of the main advantages of buses, btw
21:16:55 <ais523> )
21:16:59 <fizzie> I think rental car corporations can deal with that?
21:17:04 <fizzie> They can in Finland, though it costs extra.
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21:18:12 <fizzie> (Or it may cost extra in some cases, I'm not entirely certain about that.)
21:18:41 <GreyKnight> maybe then can get two such customers: one to drive it from east to west, one from west to east
21:18:43 <GreyKnight> problem solved!
21:18:48 <fizzie> There's sometimes ads about "drive this car from X to Y for me" things that you might be able to use if you're really lucky.
21:19:01 <fizzie> There was one in the billboard at the university the other month.
21:20:02 <fizzie> I think the deal was that you paid for the gas but nothing for the car, while the person who needed to move the car didn't have to (a) pay for gas, or (b) spend time going where the car was going, which sounded reasonably fair.
21:20:27 <fizzie> In fact, I'd be surprised if there wasn't already a website to match up things like that.
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21:24:45 <oerjan> :t unless
21:24:46 <lambdabot> Monad m => Bool -> m () -> m ()
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21:38:52 -!- buffer has left.
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21:43:16 <zzo38> Did you write some polyphonic music today?
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21:46:29 <Sgeo> I had a midi that I named "polyphonic" because it made the polyphonic meter on my MIDI player go up
21:47:03 <GreyKnight> zzo38: I didn't I'm sorry D-:
21:48:31 <Sgeo> I remember I found that piece of music's name once
21:48:39 <Sgeo> And I've seen the video on YouTube
21:58:39 <FreeFull> > unless true (Just 3
21:58:43 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
21:58:45 <FreeFull> > unless true (Just 3)
21:58:49 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
22:09:19 <oerjan> :t true
22:09:34 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `true'
22:10:18 <monqy> > true
22:10:24 <lambdabot> mueval: ExitFailure 1
22:10:24 <lambdabot> mueval: Prelude.undefined
22:10:26 <GreyKnight> :t :t
22:10:37 <lambdabot> parse error on input `:'
22:12:43 <Taneb> > unless True $ Just 3
22:12:49 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
22:13:05 <Taneb> > unless True $ Just ()
22:13:11 <lambdabot> mueval: ExitFailure 1
22:13:12 <lambdabot> mueval: Prelude.undefined
22:14:04 <fizzie> > True
22:14:10 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
22:14:14 <fizzie> Working well there.
22:14:15 <monqy> lambdabot.............................
22:14:20 <GreyKnight> > 1
22:14:25 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
22:14:32 <fizzie> 1 is a tricky number.
22:14:37 <GreyKnight> > 0
22:14:42 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
22:14:42 <GreyKnight> let's try an easier one
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22:17:27 <GreyKnight> > unsafeExceedTimeLimit
22:17:34 <lambdabot> mueval: Prelude.undefined
22:17:34 <lambdabot> mueval: ExitFailure 1
22:19:12 <oerjan> i think lambdabot needs a rest.
22:19:43 <GreyKnight> maybe a lie-down in a darkened room for while
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23:29:49 <Sgeo> There are audio dramas of SG-1
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23:46:52 <kmc> "If it were not for a jump in the number of Apple products stolen, New York City crime would be down this year, officials said."
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23:49:19 <GreyKnight> So, it's up, then
23:49:29 <kmc> yes
23:49:46 <GreyKnight> :-U
23:50:28 <oerjan> iCrime
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