←2012-12-26 2012-12-27 2012-12-28→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:00:03 <elliott> monqy: belgians dont die when they get soggy
00:00:35 <monqy> guess i'm not belgian
00:01:04 <GreyKnight> unless those belgians are also witches
00:01:18 <kmc> in belgium it rains french fries and golden ale
00:01:35 <GreyKnight> (is it ever established if Glinda can be dissolved in water? Or is it only *wicked* witches?)
00:01:40 <monqy> soggy french fries? sogged with ale, i mean
00:02:02 <nooodl> " b r b "
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00:02:47 <GreyKnight> although Cracked.com reckons Glinda is basically a villain anyway: http://www.cracked.com/article_18881_5-reasons-greatest-movie-villain-ever-good-witch.html
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00:12:13 <GreyKnight> ...they make a pretty good case, actually...
00:12:41 <Bike> presumably that sort of thing is gone over in the books.
00:19:00 <zzo38> I made this chess variant: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSkingfridayxiii
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00:25:44 <GreyKnight> not sure I understand rule #11
00:26:37 <zzo38> I thought it is clear. What part of #11 did you not understand?
00:28:46 <GreyKnight> well I can see what it does, I just don't know why
00:30:32 <zzo38> There was a mistake; I fixed it.
00:30:48 <zzo38> I wrote one letter wrong and missed one word. Now it is corrected.
00:30:57 <GreyKnight> is it to avoid some consequence of doing two such moves? Why not just forbid it and then you don't need a coinflip
00:30:58 <zzo38> Now is rule #11 understandable better?
00:31:44 <GreyKnight> I understand the text, I just don't know the rationale :-P
00:33:11 <GreyKnight> oh damn I just remembered I missed Jupiter's Christmas conjunction through being sick DDDD-:
00:33:41 <GreyKnight> raeg
00:33:55 <zzo38> Simply to add a small amount of chance in only a few cases, beings those symmetric move which, if everyone plays, results in too much symmetric position; therefore you don't play same move always
00:34:08 <zzo38> Jupiter's Christmas conjunction?
00:34:48 <GreyKnight> zzo38: also the rules don't specify what happens to ownership of a pawn if you convert it to a different colour (I assume it changes owners too?)
00:35:53 <oerjan> zzo38: with the moon
00:36:16 <GreyKnight> Jupiter had a conjunction with the moon on Christmas Day
00:36:45 <oerjan> moon conjunctions aren't particularly rare, anyway.
00:37:02 <zzo38> GreyKnight: Yes, it does change owner too
00:37:20 <oerjan> there's a new one in january.
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00:38:04 * oerjan somehow follows /r/astronomy
00:38:12 <GreyKnight> oerjan: still, it was a nice Christmas treat and I wanted to see it
00:38:30 <elliott> oerjan: somehow
00:38:32 <elliott> "by magic"
00:39:51 <oerjan> well, i subscribed during a supernova, i think, and somehow haven't unsubscribed although it's mostly a lot of telescope talk and picture sharing.
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00:45:08 <Sgeo> Is it normal for Diplomacy's rules to give a headache?
00:45:25 <Sgeo> Decided to try reading them. Gave up for now
00:45:40 <monqy> ok
00:46:33 <GreyKnight> what confused you?
00:46:37 <GreyKnight> maybe we can explain it
00:46:49 <GreyKnight> by "we" I mean monqy
00:47:14 <nooodl> what's diplomacy
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00:48:32 <nooodl> help
00:49:08 <zzo38> Of ecliptic longitude the conjunction is 16:17 in my timezone, but, according to what you will actually see, you have to consider such things as where you are, how close it is, size, refraction, and you need both coordinates not only one.
00:50:08 <Sgeo> nooodl, board game with almost no elements of chance, where co-operation with opponents is vital. So is backstabbing opponents.
00:50:33 <Sgeo> From TV Tropes
00:50:35 <Sgeo> "To bring an example of the convoluted nature of negotiations, it is not unusual for, say, France to engage in coordinated standoffs with Italy in order to fake a war with him, in order to satisfy Turkey, who demanded that France attack Italy in order to prevent Italy from attacking Austria while Turkey and Austria invade Russia together; the only reason France cares about what Turkey wants from him is that he and England are attempting to in
00:50:35 <Sgeo> vade Russia's allies in Germany, and the Turkish invasion will distract Russia's attention and prevent him from opening up another flank with England. Meanwhile, unbeknownst to France or Turkey, Italy has already made a deal with England to hold off his attack on Austria until the conquest of Germany is completed, at which point he and England will turn on France. It Makes Sense in Context."
00:50:45 * Sgeo goes to actually read what he just pasted
00:51:04 <Bike> man, that doesn't even mention greece at all
00:51:39 <zzo38> Do you know how Greece fits into all of this, though?
00:51:40 <Sgeo> ...my brain broke reading that
00:51:56 <GreyKnight> Sgeo: yeah, that looks like a bad place to learn the rules from :-P
00:52:11 <Sgeo> GreyKnight, I was reading one of the manuals
00:52:22 <Sgeo> I do know the basics vaguely
00:52:33 <Bike> oh, this is about a game, not world war i.
00:52:46 <Bike> i was thinking of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Schism
00:53:11 <elliott> `addquote [on Diplomacy] <Bike> man, that doesn't even mention greece at all [...] <Bike> oh, this is about a game, not world war i.
00:53:18 <HackEgo> 888) [on Diplomacy] <Bike> man, that doesn't even mention greece at all [...] <Bike> oh, this is about a game, not world war i.
00:54:20 <Bike> i think it was a reasonable mistake :(
00:54:54 <nooodl> good
00:55:17 <nooodl> sgeo: thanks
00:56:09 <Sgeo> " The name was appropriated for the tactic of sneaking a counter onto the board when nobody's looking. It's generally considered legal so long as it's taken off when called on it (however, turns are not replayed if it's been making stuff happen)."
00:56:10 <Sgeo> o.O
00:56:28 <Bike> hey, it's like munchkin!
00:56:43 <Bike> one time nobody noticed someone i was playing with had five different swords equipped
00:57:10 <GreyKnight> sounds like something Fighter McWarrior would do
00:57:32 <Sgeo> The only way that I can make sense of the word "munchkin" in what Bike just said is as a min/maxer, but that doesn't quite fit
00:57:53 <nooodl>
00:58:10 <Bike> it is the name of a game
00:58:14 <Bike> "Munchkin"
00:58:25 <Sgeo> Ah
00:58:29 <Bike> but it is about minmaxing, so i award you two points in consolation.
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02:42:14 <hagb4rd_> munchkin..i think i played it oncee, but was too drunken figure out the rules or good strategy that evening. was it that one where cheating is not just allowed but recommended? (as long as you're not caught in the act)
02:45:11 <hagb4rd_> strange one
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02:49:09 <zzo38> Does the newest versions of C allow things like: typedef struct { int x; if(0) { 42; } int y; }
02:49:36 <kmc> no
02:49:57 <Sgeo> Hmm, Munchkin seems to use a weird variant of Magic's Golden Rule
02:50:16 <Sgeo> In that there are particular rules that cards can't overrule unless... they specifically say they do
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02:55:53 <zzo38> Does any C or C++ version or compiler allow things like that? (where any top-level, array, struct, union, and enumeration can contain if blocks, and any array can contain for blocks; both subject to some restrictions such as constant expressions are required, and braces are required)
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03:00:50 <Jafet> Who needs that crap, we have templates
03:01:23 <zzo38> I think BLISS might have some features a bit like this, maybe, I am not exactly sure
03:02:33 <Bike> Sgeo: munchkin's top rule is actually "whoever shouts about the rule loudest wins".
03:03:01 <Sgeo> Is Munchkin actually a suitable game for munchkining?
03:03:16 <Bike> it's, uh, pretty hard to roleplay, if that's what you mean
03:03:22 <Fiora> I played it a couple times in college, it's extremely silly
03:03:34 <Fiora> it's probably not very fun if people take it too seriously
03:03:47 <Fiora> but it's incredibly hard to take seriously, which is the best part of it XD
03:03:54 <Sgeo> Fiora, that's what I mean, it doesn't seem like it lends itself to being taken seriously
03:03:54 <zzo38> The card game is OK, the board game is bad, in my opinion
03:04:03 <Fiora> ah, yeah, the card game. didn't know there was a board game
03:04:25 <Fiora> it's very munchkiny in the sense that it lets you stack up a billion bonuses, play combinations of cards for amusing results, and all that kind of stuff
03:04:30 <Bike> well, some people take it seriously, but then you can laugh at them.
03:04:40 <Fiora> but in a silly way
03:05:04 <Bike> as opposed to ultra serious laughter?
03:06:01 * Sgeo decides to read about F.A.T.A.L. again
03:06:21 <Bike> no you fool
03:06:48 <zzo38> In Magic: the Gathering cards you can also do something where combinations are played for various results, including making up puzzles or making up your own cards, or just playing the game normally; I like the puzzles, though. It is lesser in other games such as Pokemon card, although puzzles of that can be made up too.
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03:12:15 <Arc_Koen> do you mean puzzles in a way similar to chess problems?
03:12:21 <zzo38> Yes, like that.
03:12:32 <zzo38> I have even made two Pokemon card puzzles.
03:12:41 <Sgeo> And for the fun part, the FATAL Games logo is "Where the dice never lie."
03:12:45 <Sgeo> ^^from the review
03:12:52 <Sgeo> "Sartin: Yeah, I really like that logo, too. It was nice of the FATALites to point out that when you play games from other companies, your dice may lie to you. Ha, I knew it! All those times I was playing D&D or SenZar, and that d20 would show a 3 or some shit when I knew I rolled a 20. Thanks, FATAL, for showing me the way!"
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03:21:01 <zzo38> Have you made any chess problems?
03:21:19 <zzo38> Or, puzzle for Pokemon card or Magic: the Gathering card?
03:24:05 <zzo38> Another idea is making up some Pokemon card puzzle which may include extra cards that isn't real and is not even necessarily balanced or anything like that, and is only used for the puzzle game; it can be called "Fairy card".
03:24:38 <Bike> Clefairy card
03:25:39 <Arc_Koen> yes, i'm sure Clefairy isn't balanced or anything like that, and is never used for serious games
03:26:50 <kmc> dickachu
03:26:54 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: Not what I mean, of course.
03:27:14 <Arc_Koen> I was trying to be funny
03:27:18 <zzo38> I have done with Magic: the Gathering cards, just numbered some made up cards, no names other than their number specific to this puzzle.
03:27:31 <Arc_Koen> it's 4:30am and I'm sick so you should at least pretend that I am
03:27:32 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: Yes it is a bit funny, I suppose, too
03:28:46 <zzo38> With Pokemon card, though, the made-up card specific to the puzzle could be named by $ and a number, and if applicable, a level. And it is also possible there may be cards $1 [Lv.10] and $1 [Lv.15] to be two different cards, but anything evolving from $1 can be used with it, for example.
03:29:27 <zzo38> (The reason I used $ is because the other ASCII punctuation are mostly already used in my Pokemon card puzzles.)
03:29:39 <Arc_Koen> come on, you got approximately 700 different pokemon to work with, do you really need dollar symbols?
03:30:25 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: It is if you make up your own cards specific to the puzzle. If you use real cards, you would use their actual name instead.
03:30:50 <Arc_Koen> well you could make up a card then find a pokemon it looks like
03:31:18 <zzo38> Yes but then it might conflict with real card having the same name/level.
03:31:51 <kmc> aren't there like 2147483647 pokémon now anyway
03:31:56 <Arc_Koen> hmmm... but it's possible to have different cards for one pokemon, right?
03:32:07 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: Yes, as long as their levels ar different.
03:32:23 <Bike> just use ♀ for all pokemon names
03:32:33 <Arc_Koen> kmc: I believe there are a little under 700, but about a hundred of them have around twenty different possible shapes
03:32:58 <zzo38> No I want to use ASCII.
03:33:09 <Bike> weak!
03:33:20 <zzo38> (I know some card names contain non-ASCII; so I use substitutions in that case)
03:33:21 <Arc_Koen> be strong! make up your own charset!
03:34:40 <zzo38> Of course I could do that, but I don't want to do that for this purpose, so I want to use ASCII instead.
03:36:11 <kmc> use UTF-7
03:36:24 <kmc> pok+AOk-mon
03:36:28 <Sgeo> Hmm, what's so bad about a 4d100/2-1 roll?
03:37:33 <Sgeo> Well, I guess rolling it repeatedly for stats that ultimately don't matter is probably annoying
03:39:51 <zzo38> kmc: Well, I don't want to.
03:40:43 <zzo38> Sgeo: I used Goldilock's method to roll for stats; what do you prefer?
03:41:04 <Sgeo> I haven't really ... er, designed an RPG.
03:41:08 <Sgeo> What's Goldilock's method?
03:46:19 <zzo38> Sgeo: Make up your own numbers 0 to 9 for each of six ability scores. Using these numbers for two separate results: Add 1d8 to each. Convert to a percentage. Lookup in the table: 1->6, 2->8, 3->9, 4->10, 10->11, 14->12, 19->13, 25->14, 30->15, 35->16, 48->17, 65->18, 77->19. Select one column of results. Calculate bonus points by the total subtracting from 72, divide by 3, add 2, minimum of 2.
03:46:47 <zzo38> Add bonus points according to your choice, but not above 18, and then apply racial modifiers.
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03:52:36 <zzo38> Sgeo: Did you understand this?
03:53:59 <Sgeo> Didn't look at it closely
03:54:40 <Sgeo> I don't understand the "Using these numbers for two separate results" thing
03:55:43 <zzo38> What I mean is that the numbers 0 to 9 that you selected by yourself, are used twice; the process splits at that point. And then with the final results you can pick which one you preferred.
03:56:20 <Sgeo> Ah
03:59:05 <Sgeo> "Of course, since both sub-abilities are (say it with me) totally random, we don't really know what happens when your Maximum Speech Rate ends up being lower than your Average Speech Rate, but it's just on this side of "totally possible"."
04:00:36 <coppro> lol
04:01:18 <zzo38> That isn't possible though. I don't even know if it becomes possible when probabilities are not limited to range 0 to 1.
04:01:50 <Bike> are you saying fatal is unrealistic
04:02:17 <zzo38> I am talking about probability, not about fatal or about unrealistic.
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04:14:18 <Sgeo> This review actually says something good about FATAL.
04:14:30 <Sgeo> "After all this crap, though, I have to admit to one bright point. I liked how some of the sub-abilities provided real life-kinda examples or descriptions for each score. Like Strength listing how much you can lift, or the Vocal Charisma and Math columns I mentioned (okay, those ended up being dumb anyway, but the basic idea wasn't so bad). Examples like these can give solid ideas on how good a score really is, something many RPG systems have
04:14:31 <Sgeo> had trouble with."
04:15:48 <zzo38> What is a probability distribution called dealing with such thing as 4d6 drop lowest? What is a probability distribution called which is toss a coin until tails?
04:16:09 <Bike> isn't the latter a poisson
04:17:09 <zzo38> Let me see
04:18:10 <coppro> Bike: fish
04:18:19 <coppro> we speak English and Finnish in here
04:18:51 <kmc> ääääääääääääääää
04:19:07 <Bike> A Good Letter
04:20:15 <zzo38> I think it is similar to Knuth's Poisson algorithm, but it isn't quite.
04:20:26 <Bike> "algorithm"?
04:20:32 <coppro> fish
04:20:41 <Bike> algofishm
04:20:58 <Jafet> I'll go fish 'em too.
04:21:53 <kmc> number of flips needed to get tails would be a geometric distribution
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04:22:56 <zzo38> O, yes, it is.
04:23:25 <zzo38> But what distribution is 4d6 drop lowest?
04:25:33 <zzo38> What probability distribution would this be? Roll 1d20. If it is 1, then roll again and subtract 19; further 1s (but not 20s) continue rolling. If it is 20, then roll again and add 19; further 20s (but not 1s) continue rolling.
04:26:30 <kmc> it probably does not have a name
04:26:37 <kmc> it is the Zzo38 Distribution
04:26:54 <kmc> you can easily write its pdf though because it is discrete
04:28:03 <zzo38> O, it doesn't have a name.
04:29:54 <zzo38> OK
04:31:29 <kmc> maybe it has a name but i do not know what the name (if any) is
04:33:06 <Jafet> 3d64lyfe
04:34:12 <Sgeo> http://www.flickr.com/photos/32779242@N04/3671923055/
04:36:28 <zzo38> Maybe
04:36:39 <zzo38> But I also don't know
04:38:36 <kmc> Sgeo: ?
04:38:40 <kmc> Sgeo: ¿
04:39:03 <Sgeo> kmc, the chart is from FATAL, apparently
04:39:18 <kmc> what is FATAL
04:40:15 <Sgeo> A horrifically bad RPG
04:41:50 <kmc> k
04:42:02 <Sgeo> http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14567.phtml
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04:44:28 <Sgeo> "You can also roll a d10,000,000 in order to find out how many babies a particular woman will have, even though there are only five potential outcomes."
04:48:26 <Jafet> I want to see a d10e7
04:50:28 <kmc> do they even *make* dragonball z condoms?
04:52:24 <coppro> http://www.globalprotection.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CUSTOM
04:53:23 <Jafet> "You'll be amazed at how well people react to receiving a condom as a promotional item."
04:57:46 <Sgeo> I ... just fully processed a bit of the creator of FATAL's rebuttal to the review
04:57:55 <Sgeo> The review: "As usual, in case you forgot someone was holding a gun to your head and making you read FATAL. Or that sexuality can be argued to include "Does not desire anal sex from either gender"."
04:58:06 <Sgeo> The reply: "It is numerically impossible for an anakim to be asexual. Jason's back to senseless arguments again."
04:58:36 <Sgeo> Actually, wait, no, the reply is less sensible than that snippet made it look
04:58:48 <Sgeo> http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/FRRpart3
05:00:03 <Sgeo> Oh, ok, I think... sense can be made out of .. it... kind of?
05:00:17 <Sgeo> http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?180687-FATAL-A-Bad-Bad-Game-Or-So-People-Say/page16
05:06:29 <Sgeo> "[Jason] Sartin: So, basically, FATAL is the date rape RPG.
05:06:29 <Sgeo> Byron Hall: Another faulty conclusion drawn by Darren. Where is dating included?"
05:06:36 <Sgeo> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Quotes/FATAL
05:11:19 <Sgeo> http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/blogs/latest/entry/gaming-disconnect-15-fatal
05:12:55 <Jafet> Is Sgeo aroused yet
05:13:45 <Sgeo> I like funny reviews of horrible works
05:13:49 <Sgeo> I like MST3k
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05:59:42 <zzo38> Can enumerations be forward declaration in C?
06:03:34 <buffer> ISO C forbids forward references to "enum" types. GCC allows it as an extension.
06:15:05 <Sgeo> elliott, Fiora Taneb update
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06:49:50 <kmc> made a spiced rye sourdough
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07:33:30 <hagb4rd> finally a good point to start if you're confused of the relations between this ancient divine comedians
07:33:32 <hagb4rd> ---> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_tree_of_the_Greek_gods
07:33:50 <hagb4rd> enlightening
07:34:22 <hagb4rd> *these
07:36:48 <hagb4rd> actually the children of erebus(darkness) and nyx(night) were aether(heaven) and hemera(day)..interesting
07:37:03 <coppro> hmm
07:37:14 <coppro> I wonder what portion of modern interpretation of Greek myth was based on fanfic?
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08:06:24 <hagb4rd> to catch your thought: we can say that greeks mythology was a sort of fanfiction, created as tribute for the meanders and wonders of their existance..
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08:07:35 <coppro> hagb4rd: well but what if homer wrote and chronicled a bunch of the myths
08:07:50 <coppro> and then a bunch of other people just shipped zeus/*** because they liked that pairing?
08:08:09 <hagb4rd> ..and maybe because they were absolutely exicted of the egypt who really spaced things oit
08:09:02 <hagb4rd> homer right.. but what do you mean by shipped?
08:09:15 <hagb4rd> ah
08:09:23 <hagb4rd> no
08:09:27 <hagb4rd> i don't get it
08:09:31 <hagb4rd> 0:)
08:09:45 <coppro> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Shipping
08:10:17 <hagb4rd> oh
08:10:21 <hagb4rd> wow
08:16:40 <hagb4rd> imho every of this stories (as far as i know them) reflects a part of the substantivness of this world and our lifes
08:17:31 <hagb4rd> and it does better than coca-cola, hawking or marvel.. what do you think?
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08:22:30 <hagb4rd> woa.. follow the line of the children of night!
08:22:43 <hagb4rd> "who among you will run with the hunt"?
08:22:50 <hagb4rd> :>
08:23:39 <hagb4rd> *heebiejeebie
08:24:09 <hagb4rd> i hope you already had your breakfastß
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08:48:25 <AnotherTest> Hello
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12:31:51 <shachaf> atriq: Why do you keep changing your nick?
12:32:16 <atriq> WHO KNOWS
12:32:18 <atriq> Um
12:32:30 <atriq> Dodgy wifi
12:32:46 <atriq> We're getting a new router soon
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13:50:12 <shachaf> helloerjan
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14:41:32 <ais523> !bfjoust stealth http://sprunge.us/JIVX
14:41:32 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
14:41:43 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_stealth: 42.7
14:42:29 <ais523> yay
14:42:35 <Taneb> Not bad
14:42:37 <ais523> not sure how much further I can force the strategy
14:43:02 <ais523> but at least it demonstrates that the slowpoke/space_hotel/ffspg strategy is beatable
14:43:27 <ais523> especially on short tapes
14:43:40 <Taneb> I'd conjecture that there's no "undefeatable" strategy
14:43:44 <ais523> yes
14:43:48 <Taneb> Kinda like Pokemon
14:43:51 <ais523> although that one took some thought in calculating how to defeat
14:43:56 <Taneb> Except Sableye doesn't exist
14:44:12 <ais523> also stealth doesn't beat space_elevator
14:45:51 <ais523> also it has problems against old-fashioned pokes, rather than the new-fashioned sort
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14:47:38 <ais523> also stealth versus brachiation on length 30 is hilarious
14:47:48 <ais523> they both manage to lock themselves on the other's clear loop
14:52:40 <ais523> oh wow
14:52:49 <ais523> I just managed to make it a little stealthier, and apparently that helped
14:53:39 <ais523> !bfjoust stealth http://sprunge.us/hGGI
14:53:42 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_stealth: 42.6
14:53:49 <ais523> hmm
14:54:02 <fizzie> That must be the "new math".
14:54:47 <ais523> it did help
14:54:57 <ais523> !bfjoust stealth http://sprunge.us/JIVX
14:55:00 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_stealth: 42.6
14:55:03 <ais523> !bfjoust stealth http://sprunge.us/hGGI
14:55:04 <ais523> see?
14:55:06 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_stealth: 42.6
14:55:16 <ais523> just it must have done particularly well against the program it knocked off the scoreboard
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14:59:50 <AnotherTest> Hello
15:00:31 <ais523> !bfjoust stealth http://sprunge.us/QMiA
15:00:33 <ais523> hi AnotherTest
15:00:34 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_stealth: 42.5
15:00:39 <ais523> :)
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15:01:44 <ais523> I prefer this version, though, because it does better against the programs it's meant to do well against
15:06:29 <ais523> !bfjoust stealth http://sprunge.us/jRNX
15:06:33 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_stealth: 43.3
15:06:58 <ais523> there
15:11:48 <nooodl> woah. what's this
15:13:58 <ais523> brainfuck joust
15:14:05 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust
15:14:11 <ais523> see also http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies
15:14:16 <ais523> the best esolang sport in existence
15:14:22 <ais523> (probably because there aren't many esolang sports in existence)
15:15:08 <olsner> possibly the only reason to ever learn brainfuck
15:15:54 <ais523> feel free to submit programs to egobot in the channel; the way the hill is designed is that if you submit a bad program, it'll fall off quickly
15:15:58 <ais523> so you can't really screw things up
15:16:07 <ais523> if you submit a good program, it stays much longer for other people to compete against
15:16:55 <Taneb> Has anyone seen werecat lately?
15:18:11 <ais523> I don't think so
15:18:19 <ais523> he was pretty good at BF Joust, though
15:18:30 <nooodl> i have no idea how to even begin writing a program for this
15:18:35 <ais523> (I'm not as good as him or quintopia, I think, although I'm more prolific)
15:18:39 <ais523> nooodl: that's what the strategies page is for
15:18:50 <ais523> originally none of us had any idea
15:18:59 <ais523> but people came up with strategies, and then we documented them
15:19:42 <Taneb> My most successful strategy was to change one character in somebody else's
15:19:50 <ais523> Taneb: which program was that?
15:19:59 <Taneb> I'm awful at BF Joust
15:20:35 <ais523> nooodl: a cookie-cutter first program is to set some decoys then use a standard clear loop
15:20:59 <olsner> I'm amazed my programs are still on the list
15:21:33 <ais523> !bfjoust this_sort_of_thing_is_done_so_often_it_doesnt_do_so_well_nowadays >>>>(+)*20(<(+)*90)*4(>)*8(>[(+)*20[-]])*21
15:21:36 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_this_sort_of_thing_is_done_so_often_it_doesnt_do_so_well_nowadays: 23.2
15:22:12 <ais523> it does get some wins
15:22:15 <ais523> but it doesn't do very well
15:22:36 <ais523> and olsner, your programs aren't very high on the list
15:22:41 <ais523> they're falling gradually
15:23:25 <ais523> @tell quintopia I made a program based on what we discussed, and a few other concepts too; see ais523_stealth
15:23:25 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
15:24:34 <ais523> stealth is fourth on points, incidentally, although eighth on score
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15:26:09 <ais523> huh, triplock2 has finally fallen off the hill
15:26:23 <ais523> looks like the hill has adapted such that triplocking is no longer a viable strategy
15:26:23 <nooodl> !bfjoust thingy (+>)*8(>[-]+)*21
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15:26:26 <EgoBot> ​Score for nooodl_thingy: 18.4
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15:26:31 <nooodl> mmmm
15:26:46 <ais523> nooodl: you got some wins: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/breakdown.txt
15:27:05 <nooodl> cute
15:27:45 <nooodl> i guess the metastrategy is just, look at what the current best strategies do and design something that beats all of them somehow
15:27:49 <ais523> yes
15:28:00 <nooodl> time to watch http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/ for my thing
15:28:05 <ais523> although the metastrategy sort-of converged, recently
15:28:22 <ais523> with all the best programs working the same way
15:28:36 <ais523> quintopia and I tried to work out how to pick on that strategy, but it's pretty hard
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15:57:27 <hagb4rd> what an ugly boring day
15:57:48 <hagb4rd> good it's over soon
15:58:16 <hagb4rd> night turns grey into dark..which comforts me much better
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15:58:55 <stupidnoob> allo
15:59:11 <stupidnoob> is there really a compiler from mariolang?
15:59:20 <hagb4rd> `welcome stupidnoob
15:59:25 <HackEgo> stupidnoob: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:59:40 <hagb4rd> stupidnoob yup
15:59:51 <stupidnoob> :O
15:59:57 <stupidnoob> any place to download it?
16:01:28 <stupidnoob> just made me laugh hillariously
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16:02:20 <nortti> wait what? compiler?
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16:03:23 <ARandomOWL> OHAI
16:04:02 <stupidnoob> lo owl
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16:04:57 <stupidnoob> http://esolangs.org/wiki/MarioLANG loking at that, is there atually a program to compile it?
16:06:05 <ARandomOWL> if not, why not write your own ;)
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16:09:52 <nooodl> the spec is way too ambiguous to implement...
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16:15:59 <FreeFull> nooodl: Only if you care about following specs
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17:02:54 <hagb4rd> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk_XaJ7gE4Q ..baby don't hurt me, no more <3
17:03:09 <hagb4rd> *sparkle
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17:04:17 <hagb4rd> (hope there is no politcal background on that one)
17:05:47 <elliott> reminds me of tree wave
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17:09:36 <tswett> Huh.
17:09:58 <elliott> also http://vimeo.com/1109226
17:10:02 <elliott> tswett: huh
17:10:03 -!- oerjan has set topic: The channel for polyphonic oompah music and coinductive prepromorphisms | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
17:10:34 <tswett> If I understand this thing correctly, Godel's statement is not necessarily true in a consistent system.
17:11:00 <Taneb> It has to be sufficiently powerful
17:11:08 <hagb4rd> oh this one ist very minimalistic
17:11:10 <tswett> Like, consider first-order Peano arithmetic, and the Godel statement "the Godel statement of Peano arithmetic cannot be proved".
17:11:27 <oerjan> presbyter arithmetic or whatchamacallit
17:11:37 <hagb4rd> the theme envelops
17:11:56 <tswett> There are models of Peano arithmetic in which that statement is false.
17:12:26 <hagb4rd> like it elliott
17:13:11 <hagb4rd> isn't that a radiohead song?
17:14:59 <oerjan> it has to be powerful enough to encode the existence of proofs in its own system, at least. and presumably to verify constructive proofs that it _isn't_ consistent.
17:15:59 <oerjan> sorry, *presburger
17:16:28 <tswett> Yeah, but apparently that's not sufficient.
17:16:37 <tswett> Like I said, there are models of Peano arithmetic in which the Godel statement is false.
17:17:37 <oerjan> the first answer here is quite relevant http://mathoverflow.net/questions/9864/presburger-arithmetic
17:18:07 <oerjan> not just the part about presburger
17:18:39 <hagb4rd> on peano: "Paris and Harrington (1977) gave the first "natural" example of a statement which is true for the integers but unprovable in Peano arithmetic (Spencer 1983)."
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17:58:02 <kmc> http://web.mit.edu/cp/www/presslogs/Dec-17-2012.pdf Incident Type: WEAPONS VIOLATION
17:58:55 <fizzie> What, a ninja exam?
17:59:28 <fizzie> Is NO REPORTS OF RESIDENTIAL FIRES related to the item?
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18:11:17 <kmc> http://events.ccc.de/congress/2012/Fahrplan/events/5265.en.html damn i want to see this talk
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18:14:06 <buffer> looks a bit boring.
18:14:43 <kmc> k
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18:17:03 <oerjan> `welcome ARandomOWL
18:17:05 <HackEgo> ARandomOWL: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:17:08 * elliott wonders who buffer is
18:17:20 <oerjan> `welcome buffer
18:17:22 <HackEgo> buffer: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:19:23 <buffer> kmc: hasn't the page fault exception handler been used and abused on x86, made public, advertised ruthlessly to papers and color-schemed magazines for years?
18:19:54 <buffer> I'm not impressed with this year's ccc assortment of talks
18:20:11 <kmc> i'm not saying it's novel research just that it probably contains stuff i don't know
18:20:20 <kmc> it sounds like it covers a lot more than the page fault exception handler
18:20:55 <buffer> In this talk we will give a (nearly) complete historic overview of creative uses of memory-related traps and faults by hardening patches such as OpenWall, PaX, and other less known but interesting projects, as well as by rootkit designs such as ShadowWalker, and by unorthodox reverse engineering and debugging systems such as OllyBone. We will then show some novel tricks with the x86 systems to both conceal and protect memory contents.
18:21:28 <kmc> they mention segmentation and task switch segment as well as interactions with TLB and other caching systems in the presence of multiprocessing
18:21:33 <kmc> so yeah, sounds cool
18:21:37 <kmc> if you don't like it then that's fine
18:21:44 <oerjan> <stupidnoob> http://esolangs.org/wiki/MarioLANG loking at that, is there atually a program to compile it? <-- as someone else implied, the spec is so ambiguous any implementor would have to make up a large part of how it works
18:21:53 <kmc> i guess i care more about learning than about having the biggest hacker dong in the room
18:22:05 <oerjan> and the original language author is nowhere to be seen these days, afaik
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18:28:25 <fizzie> oerjan: On the other hand, version 2.0 has jetpacks. (Allegedly.)
18:30:34 <oerjan> yeah.
18:53:05 <kmc> also not surprising, but amusing: "Lastly, we built on last year's presentation by discussing the feasibility of exploiting Cisco phones from compromised HP printers and vice versa."
18:54:12 <buffer> interesting.
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18:55:38 <kmc> they have developed a worm that takes over all the Cisco phones in an organization and then covertly exfiltrates microphone recordings
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18:56:46 <oklopol> dudes
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18:59:59 <oerjan> dudes and dudette
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19:07:37 <fizzie> Aren't dudettes also dudes?
19:07:59 <Deewiant> Depends on the definition
19:08:53 <hagb4rd> depends on the context
19:09:02 <shachaf> Are études dudes?
19:09:10 <kmc> sháchaf
19:09:12 <kmc> how goes?
19:09:57 <shachaf> I woke up at midnight or so today.
19:10:01 <kmc> that's fun
19:10:15 <shachaf> Let's see if I survive it.
19:11:11 <kmc> i should hope so
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19:19:00 <olsner> shachaf: you will not survive
19:19:07 <shachaf> tholsner
19:19:13 <buffer> prepare for 2013/5/19 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events#Future_predictions
19:19:38 <kmc> "Ronald Weinland's revised prediction of Jesus Christ's return following his failed 2011 and 2012 predictions."
19:19:41 <kmc> sounds credible
19:21:03 <olsner> assuming the apocalypse does happen this time, he's been corrct one out of three times... you could do worse
19:23:25 <kmc> "The Earth would be destroyed by an asteroid, Nibiru, or some other interplanetary object; an alien invasion; or a supernova. Scientists from NASA, along with expert archeologists, stated that none of those events were possible."
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19:23:58 <kmc> that seems to overstate the case
19:24:10 <kmc> i don't think NASA can definitively rule out an alien invasion on any particular future date
19:24:56 <oerjan> you'd think.
19:24:57 <shachaf> Or past date.
19:25:11 <kmc> true
19:25:21 <oerjan> a supernova is pretty ruled out though, iirc
19:25:22 <kmc> they may already be among us
19:25:56 <fizzie> "He later stated that the end of the world had indeed begun on May 27, 2012, but would take "one year to become fulfilled". Weinland asserts that Christ will now return on Pentecost of 2013, which will fall on May 19, 2013."
19:26:20 <kmc> alien beings living in some remote northern land, speaking a strange alien language and developing esoteric programming
19:27:06 <shachaf> Hmm, I remember http://www.gutenberg.org/files/29601/29601-h/29601-h.htm
19:27:14 <kmc> oerjan: yeah, i guess it depends on whether you include "we fundamentally misunderstand the laws of physics" in the scope of "possibility" or consider it to be some meta-theoretic thing
19:28:29 <kmc> also maybe aliens would detonate some kind of device inside the sun to make it go supernova prematurely
19:28:32 <kmc> 2010 style
19:30:10 <shachaf> monqy: :@
19:30:21 <monqy> what
19:30:21 <oerjan> s/prematurely/at all/, the sun is generally believed too small to become one
19:30:26 <kmc> ah
19:30:46 <shachaf> monqy: it's like :0 but with @ instead of 0
19:30:54 <monqy> ok
19:30:57 <olsner> maybe they could make it a whatever-it-would-be instead?
19:31:12 <olsner> if you can build a supernova device, that couldn't be too tricky
19:31:13 <oerjan> a red giant
19:31:22 <oerjan> and then a white dwarf
19:31:27 <fizzie> This is something I've been wondering: when you're doing, say, Android development, and run a thing in the emulator, and want to perform a "pinch" gesture, what do you do? Install Multi-Pointer X, plug in a second mouse and do a two-handed pinch?
19:31:52 <oerjan> the vulcan android pinch
19:32:18 <oerjan> (star trek had some blowing up stars, i recall)
19:32:53 <olsner> fizzie: there's some thingy where you connect an android device to provide all touch input
19:33:13 <olsner> but then you could just test on that device instead of in the emulator
19:33:27 <fizzie> olsner: "Develop on Virtual Devices -- Advanced hardware emulation, including camera, sensors, multitouch, telephony" -- I suppose it's part of that.
19:33:57 <oerjan> now to turn the sun quickly into a red giant, it would seem you would have to get its hydrogen to fuse superfast, which would seem like it would blow it up anyhow.
19:36:42 <olsner> fizzie: that sounds like it might just be describing the emulator
19:37:16 <fizzie> olsner: Yes, but if it "emulates multitouch", I suppose it must have some way of performing it.
19:38:40 <fizzie> "The emulator supports multi-touch input, as an experimental feature in r17, using a tethered Android device running the SdkControllerMultitouch appplication."
19:38:49 <fizzie> Aw, apparently that's the only thing they support.
19:39:03 <fizzie> I was hoping for MPX.
19:40:52 <olsner> iirc the emulator uses SDL, that might help you adjust your expectations
19:42:04 <fizzie> I saw something about doing hardware graphics acceleration. Though I suppose that doesn't exactly preclude SDL; there's OpenGL support in there.
19:51:07 <buffer> kmc: http://29c3.fem-net.de - http live streaming is up.
19:56:31 <kmc> yes
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20:16:02 <elliott> ais523: what's the FHS-correct location for a debootstrapped chroot
20:16:07 <elliott> somewhere in /var?
20:17:17 <ais523> err, not sure, /home seems to make the most sense
20:17:31 <elliott> ais523: /home/foo/home/foo looks a bit silly
20:18:16 <olsner> I've seen /srv used for that in e.g. examples, but no idea if that agrees with the FHS
20:19:34 <fizzie> "/srv contains site-specific data which is served by this system. -- The methodology used to name subdirectories of /srv is unspecified as there is currently no consensus on how this should be done. One method for structuring data under /srv is by protocol, eg. ftp, rsync, www, and cvs. On large systems it can be useful to structure /srv by administrative context, such as /srv/physics/www, ...
20:19:40 <fizzie> ... /srv/compsci/cvs, etc. This setup will differ from host to host."
20:20:04 <ais523> I've seen /home structured by administrative context, on very large systems
20:20:42 * elliott has /srv/esolangs.org/www
20:21:01 <fizzie> My home directory is /u/22/htkallas/unix on the university systems.
20:21:31 <fizzie> /u has the subdirectories 01 .. 99, and there's some kind of a scheme to divide accounts into them.
20:22:15 <fizzie> (All 99 are separate NFS mounts.)
20:23:43 <fizzie> It's all very strange nowadays when it's full of Kerberos and Microsoft Active Directory.
20:24:13 <fizzie> My gid is 70000(Domain Users), for example.
20:25:02 <fizzie> And there's some kind of a thing where the regular Unix permissions sometimes show very misleading things, confusing some programs.
20:31:43 <fizzie> olsner: I have had that emulator running at 100% (single-core) CPU use for maybe twenty minutes now, trying to power off. I'm wondering if it's still actually doing anything or not; certainly it's still animating the twirly bit.
20:32:36 <olsner> fizzie: did you get the x86 and virtualization thing going?
20:32:52 <olsner> without that it's quite slow
20:33:43 <elliott> which emulator
20:34:16 <fizzie> olsner: I just started it out of curiosity, so no.
20:34:26 <fizzie> elliott: The dandruff emulator.
20:34:31 <fizzie> Or, wait... I think it was something else.
20:34:34 <fizzie> Android, right.
20:35:16 <fizzie> olsner: It was an ARM AVD, so it's not a surprise it's slow.
20:35:31 <fizzie> olsner: Still, it's been shutting down far longer than it took to start up (maybe 5 minutes?).
20:36:10 <olsner> if you're bored, just kill it?
20:37:19 <fizzie> But maybe it will get CORRPUTED.
20:37:25 <fizzie> Then again, I could just delete it...
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20:39:21 <fizzie> Also, there's no x86 "System Image" for Android 4.2 in my SDK Manager. :/
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20:42:21 <olsner> there should be at least one x86 image... dunno how they decide which version they provide it for though
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20:50:33 <FreeFull> fizzie: Check if it's actually accessing any data
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20:55:07 <fizzie> FreeFull: I killeded it already. :/
20:55:51 <fizzie> olsner: The SDK Manager only shows "ARM EABI v7a System Image" and "MIPS System Image" for 4.2; there's ARM + x86 + MIPS for e.g. 4.1.2 and 4.0.3, though.
20:56:16 <olsner> if you need 4.2 I guess you're out of luck
21:08:08 <fizzie> I don't think I "need" anything.
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21:12:49 <Sgeo> Worms thread on /r/gaming !
21:12:52 <Sgeo> Wheee!
21:13:23 <kmc> Worms! Oh my god worms!
21:14:56 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/15j2mk/the_most_unbalanced_ai_i_have_ever_fought/
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22:02:30 <kmc> watching the cisco phone hacking talk
22:02:31 <kmc> http://theora.29c3.fem-net.de:8001/room1_video.ogg
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22:05:26 <kmc> well now i'm watching a black screen
22:05:37 <olsner> that sounds boring
22:06:01 <kmc> yeah i've seen better
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22:07:53 <kmc> even in the future nothing works
22:08:13 <GreyKnight> We're in the future?
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22:08:37 <oerjan> black screens are the new black
22:08:44 <Taneb> For another 3 days, yeah
22:08:51 <Taneb> Then we go back to some lame past-y year
22:08:55 <GreyKnight> I'll inform Milan.
22:09:11 <Sgeo> GreyKnight, watch Spaceballs if you haven't seen it
22:09:12 <oerjan> no, then we'll be in the post-future, duh
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22:11:08 <GreyKnight> Sgeo: I have but not for a while
22:16:48 * GreyKnight combs the desert
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22:35:04 <GreyKnight> Tired of people using BF-conversion as a TC proof as well. What about a nice juicy Turing machine?!
22:35:46 <Bike> cyclic tag machines are the new black
22:38:48 <Taneb> Of my langauges, two reduce to P'' (brainfuck), one to Lambda Calculus, one to SKI calculus, one to a Turing machine, one to Underload and hence to Minsky machines, and the rest probably aren't TC
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22:39:11 <Taneb> I think that's a nice range
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22:39:20 <Taneb> Although I'd like one to reduce to Wang Tiles
22:39:43 <elliott> (Move log); 19:06 . . Star651 (Talk | contribs | block) moved page From INTERCAL to Ellipsis: The Esoteric Programming Story to From INTERCAL to LOLCODE: The Esoteric Programming Story ‎(Ellipsis is too BFlipse )
22:39:52 <monqy>
22:40:04 <monqy> hehheheheehehheh
22:40:12 <elliott> it's true
22:41:06 <GreyKnight> iif I make a cool esolang can i be in the documentary ._.
22:41:07 <monqy> im excited for more talk page action
22:41:10 <GreyKnight> iiii
22:41:12 <monqy> yes
22:41:23 <monqy> an exciting esolang like: ellipses or lolcode
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22:42:45 <Taneb> Unfortunately the only really recent esolang I can think of that's actually interesting, I created
22:43:07 <Bike> is it lolcode?
22:43:17 <Taneb> I did not create that
22:43:18 <monqy> why not one ais or cpressey created
22:43:27 <Taneb> My worst esolang is the mysterious Ook!++
22:43:32 <Taneb> Which only I have seen
22:43:34 <Taneb> It's awful
22:43:36 <Bike> i'm already horrified.
22:43:38 <elliott> there have been interesting languages in 2012
22:43:50 <Taneb> elliott, Fueue is almost interesting
22:43:50 <Bike> international transport?
22:43:52 <GreyKnight> elliott: give us a for example
22:44:37 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:NewPages
22:44:53 <elliott> ais523 and cpressey have made several languages this year
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22:51:03 <Taneb> Did Truth machines happen this year?
22:52:22 <elliott> yes
22:53:52 <oerjan> Taneb: Fueue almost certainly can do all of Underload other than S, it's just that i left out ~ * and a because they seemed like they would be comparably painful. adding just ~ would give a path via turing machines instead of minsky.
22:53:57 <monqy> im curious as to what language this star guy knows of
22:54:30 <GreyKnight> "what's on the wiki" I reckon
22:54:32 <Sgeo> Does being obscure make something "underground"?
22:54:43 <Sgeo> Then again, I guess I've seen underground used in that context before
22:54:46 <Sgeo> Seems a bit weird to me
22:55:08 <GreyKnight> Request: actually underground esolang
22:55:32 <Bike> esolang of the mole people
22:56:06 <monqy> GreyKnight: well it's interesting how he picks ellipsis and lolcode, and makes the languages he does
22:56:20 <monqy> GreyKnight: almost as if he doesn't know what makes a language interesting : )
22:57:50 <GreyKnight> Bike: I think a bully automaton like RUBE but in a minecraft-like cavern?
22:58:05 <Bike> uuuuugh redstone crap
22:58:11 <GreyKnight> monqy: apply the "education tool" :-U
22:58:20 <GreyKnight> Hey I like redstone :-(
22:58:44 <Bike> you are crap
22:58:54 <GreyKnight> Am not >:-(
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22:59:10 <oerjan> GreyKnight: i think Snack is pretty underground. we certainly want to keep it buried.
22:59:33 <Bike> i have a reduction of "greyknight is crap" to the existence of creative sets right here bro
22:59:41 <monqy> has anyone written an esme program????that's what i thought
22:59:50 <GreyKnight> Bike: I'm telling mum!
23:00:11 <oerjan> monqy: the spec is a little, er
23:00:58 <elliott> Bike: whats wrong with redstone
23:01:07 <Bike> red sucks, as a color
23:01:19 <monqy> does stone suck too
23:01:35 <Bike> stone is ok
23:01:49 <oerjan> monqy: those two languages have one thing in common, of course.
23:01:50 <GreyKnight> Solution: texture packs
23:01:50 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:01:51 <zzo38> What stones do you like, then?
23:02:17 <Bike> black ones.
23:03:02 * GreyKnight pelts Bike with razor-sharp obsidian chunks
23:03:43 <oerjan> GreyKnight: also the technical term is lart hth
23:03:59 <olsner> GreyKnight: ah, conchoidal fracturing stones are nice
23:04:33 * GreyKnight zaps oerjan with a cattle prod -----E**
23:04:48 * oerjan hits GreyKnight with the saucepan ===\__/
23:04:57 <monqy> the saucepan???
23:05:07 <oerjan> yes, the saucepan
23:05:37 * GreyKnight tickles oerjan with a feather-duster -----<<=
23:05:50 <oerjan> *ACHOO*
23:06:06 <olsner> do feathers typically need to be dusted?
23:06:07 <hagb4rd> fairy nuff
23:06:15 <GreyKnight> monqy: The One Saucepan, it corrupts the minds of men and also cooks your beans
23:06:25 <monqy> does it cook other things too
23:06:46 <hagb4rd> it's deeper than a pan right?
23:06:51 <elliott> How to cows exist
23:07:01 <hagb4rd> and heavier
23:07:08 <hagb4rd> +1 on damge
23:07:28 <GreyKnight> monqy: yes but that makes it more likely to corrupt you. I would stick with beans.
23:07:35 <Bike> The Deep Pan
23:08:26 <olsner> fungot: how to exist cows?
23:08:27 <fungot> olsner: what d debugger is there then? :o))
23:08:39 <GreyKnight> Bike: sounds like a chippy in Innsmouth
23:09:00 <hagb4rd> pan&nox
23:10:08 <hagb4rd> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_(mythology)
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23:14:05 <oerjan> ^style lovecraft
23:14:06 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
23:14:17 <oerjan> fungot: what do you know about chippies
23:14:19 <fungot> oerjan: ' they's more abaout him as i listened to the noises heard by legrasse's men as they ploughed on through the early afternoon, and elwood who had meanwhile seen the papers and of their fear of the unknown.
23:14:31 <Bike> fungot: have you been to that greasy spoon, The Deep Spoon?
23:14:32 <fungot> Bike: thus the great race sped across the room to a huge mahogany chest. he selected one, automatically. throw a stick, and the
23:16:02 <GreyKnight> fungot: can I get a sausage supper please
23:16:03 <fungot> GreyKnight: you will probably call this raving at first, yet soon increasing to a deafening, maddening intensity.
23:16:55 <Bike> "you will probably call this raving at first, and then later you'll call it really annoying and loud raving"
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23:17:10 <GreyKnight> Sounds like my neighbours -_-
23:17:38 <hagb4rd> fizzie failed at splitting the text fragments
23:18:17 <Taneb> By the way I finished my Fueue interpreter
23:18:58 <olsner> did you save the code?
23:20:03 <GreyKnight> Commit!
23:24:16 <FreeFull> let remNth n = (a <- getLine) >> print $ map snd $ filter (\(x,y) -> x `mod` n == 0) $ zip [0..] a Why is it complaining and failing on the <-
23:25:40 <elliott> because that's not valid syntax
23:25:46 <elliott> do you want to use do notation or (>>) or (>>=)
23:26:07 <FreeFull> I did use >>
23:26:19 <zzo38> But <- is not a expression.
23:26:36 <zzo38> You use <- for a do-notation
23:26:45 <elliott> well you didn't really use anything since your code doesn't make sense :P
23:26:51 <FreeFull> What would I use here then?
23:27:00 <elliott> let's put it another way: why are you writing "(a <- getLine) >>"?
23:27:22 <zzo38> You can use getLine >>= print . map snd . filter (\(x,y) -> x `mod` n == 0) . zip [0..] maybe.
23:27:23 <FreeFull> Because I thought do notation and >> were equivalent
23:27:39 <zzo38> Or you can use >>= \a ->
23:27:50 <GreyKnight> What is a
23:27:51 <zzo38> Or do-notation with do { a <- getLine; ...
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23:28:02 <kmc> they are equivalent but that doesn't mean you can mix up the syntax however you like
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23:28:27 <kmc> within do { ... } you have a sequence of statements; each statement is either an expression or (variable <- expression)
23:28:42 <kmc> (or let ... = ...)
23:28:45 <elliott> kmc: or other things which I am restraining myself from listing for the sake of pedagogy
23:28:58 <elliott> hard to control my inner pedant
23:29:03 <kmc> (variable <- expression) is not an expression by itself; it is a statement, and statements only make sense syntactically inside a 'do' block
23:29:17 <zzo38> And if you don't put <- then it is still the expression but with no variable binding.
23:29:19 <elliott> anyway do notation is more powerful than just (>>), you can rewrite any do block in terms of (>>=) though
23:29:27 * GreyKnight inserts an 'n' and gives elliott an inner necklace
23:29:28 <monqy> kmc: um list comprehensions!!!
23:29:29 <elliott> (m >> x is just m >>= \_ -> x)
23:29:36 <FreeFull> Do notation works fine
23:29:50 <Bike> is let... not an expression
23:29:55 <kmc> elliott: those are the only 3 syntactic forms of statements in standard haskell
23:29:58 <kmc> Bike: no
23:29:58 <kmc> "let ... in ..." is
23:30:00 <monqy> Bike: you're thinking of let...in...
23:30:11 <kmc> but 'do' supports an alternative form of 'let'
23:30:17 <zzo38> There are also <$> and join and other operations which can also be used for some purposes.
23:30:27 <elliott> kmc: I typed that before you listed the third kind
23:30:32 <kmc> do { let x = a; b; ... } === let x = a in do { b; ... }
23:30:33 <kmc> elliott: ok
23:31:19 <FreeFull> I'm addicted to $ ):
23:31:26 <FreeFull> I use it even when I really should have used .
23:31:38 <GreyKnight> Capitalism
23:31:45 <Bike> Hoxhaism.
23:31:56 <kmc> @let (€) = flip ($)
23:31:58 <oerjan> FreeFull: BOO
23:31:59 <lambdabot> Defined.
23:32:10 <kmc> > 3 € succ
23:32:10 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
23:32:14 <kmc> f u lambdabot
23:32:21 <oerjan> > 2+2
23:32:22 <lambdabot> 4
23:32:31 <Bike> how does it do € in the let but not the eval
23:32:40 <oerjan> interesting, so @let _is_ unicode clean :P
23:32:41 <Bike> what is this insanity. what is this lambdabot
23:32:56 <monqy> :t (.)
23:32:58 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
23:33:01 <monqy> rip
23:33:06 <kmc> damn it
23:33:45 <oerjan> Bike: presumably @let doesn't pass through mueval's eval as a string, but is written directly to the L.hs file which > imports implicitly
23:33:51 <elliott> Bike: you misspelled hexham
23:33:52 <zzo38> (.) :: Category c => c y z -> c x y -> c x z
23:33:58 <Bike> what is this hexham
23:34:04 <elliott> i wish i knew
23:34:05 <FreeFull> I tried the € thing in ghci and I'm getting a type error
23:34:11 <oerjan> and so avoids the broken conversion, wherever it is
23:34:12 <elliott> Bike: that was re hoxhaism btw
23:34:22 <Bike> the infamous hoxha-hexha split
23:34:42 <monqy> FreeFull: ?
23:34:45 <oerjan> FreeFull: what error?
23:34:53 <FreeFull> Wait
23:34:53 <GreyKnight> Shouldn't flip ($) be (|)
23:34:54 <monqy> (And from what input)
23:34:55 <FreeFull> I forgot the flip
23:35:06 <FreeFull> Stupid me
23:35:20 <monqy> GreyKnight: that's rotate ($)
23:35:20 <FreeFull> Works fine in ghci
23:35:30 <oerjan> GreyKnight: | is syntax so not available
23:35:35 <FreeFull> :t rotate
23:35:36 <lambdabot> Bits a => a -> Int -> a
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23:37:02 <GreyKnight> oerjan: disgraceful
23:37:15 <GreyKnight> How about ¦ as a workaround
23:37:35 <oerjan> OKAY
23:37:50 <GreyKnight> FINE
23:38:01 <monqy> 1 as a workaround (num instance???anyone)
23:39:32 <oerjan> > rotate 1 10
23:39:33 <lambdabot> 1024
23:39:37 <oerjan> > rotate 1 (-10)
23:39:39 <lambdabot> 0
23:39:51 <oerjan> I WANT MY INFINITE BITS
23:39:54 <oerjan> > rotate 1 (-10) :: Int
23:39:56 <lambdabot> 18014398509481984
23:40:01 <GreyKnight> > rotate monqy 1
23:40:04 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `monqy'
23:40:29 <Bike> @define monqy
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23:41:43 <GreyKnight> @let monqy = 1 / 0
23:41:45 <lambdabot> Defined.
23:41:45 <FreeFull> My final code seems to be remNth n = getLine >>= print . map snd . filter (\(x,y) -> x `mod` n /= 0) . zip [1..]
23:42:00 <GreyKnight> > rotate monqy 1
23:42:02 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a0' in the constraints:
23:42:02 <lambdabot> (GHC.Real.Fractional a0...
23:42:18 <kmc> FreeFull: it might be nicer to use 'interact'
23:42:59 <elliott> is GreyKnight the knew shachaf
23:43:25 <GreyKnight> I am cooler
23:43:38 <elliott> *new
23:43:38 <FreeFull> kmc: Oh
23:43:40 <FreeFull> You're right
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23:44:33 <FreeFull> kmc: Except interact won't stop after one line
23:47:19 <fizzie> fungot: Some raving of a deafening, maddening intensity, please?
23:47:20 <fungot> fizzie: whom it is not well to look too long and steadily at the great central plaza swarming with fnord ghouls and night-gaunts prepared for flight, each ghoul selecting a suitable pair of horned steeds to bear him. carter feared for a moment my surroundings seemed confused, like a fnord.
23:47:53 <GreyKnight> I am sometimes confused like a fnord
23:47:55 <fizzie> fungot: Yes, that's raving all right.
23:47:56 <fungot> fizzie: beyond it he saw a very terrible outline of something noxiously thin and horned and fnord and went forgotten out of
23:48:05 <fizzie> Sad fate.
23:48:12 <olsner> fungot: tell me more about the fnord ghouls and night-gaunts
23:48:15 <fungot> olsner: one early morning when the tide of battle turned against the toadlike abnormalities on the jagged rock and the extermination of the toadlike horrors fought desperately with the great spears clutched in their powerful and disgusting paws. the time would be easy to know, dobbs has been my sixth sense. now, however, agree as to the vegetable as to the nature of what he knew of suydam's death and transfer at sea, fnord and
23:48:35 <oerjan> > let remNth n = takeWhile (not . null) . unfoldr (Just . splitAt (n-1) . drop 1) in remNth 5 "Hello, world!"
23:48:36 <lambdabot> ["ello"," wor","d!"]
23:48:46 <oerjan> oops
23:49:01 <oerjan> > let remNth n = concat . takeWhile (not . null) . unfoldr (Just . splitAt (n-1) . drop 1) in remNth 5 "Hello, world!"
23:49:03 <lambdabot> "ello word!"
23:49:33 <GreyKnight> Let us agree as to the vegetable
23:49:48 <fizzie> I think we can all agree on that.
23:50:35 <oerjan> or wait
23:51:03 <oerjan> > let remNth n = concat . takeWhile (not . null) . unfoldr (Just . second (drop 1) . splitAt (n-1)) in remNth 5 "Hello, world!"
23:51:05 <lambdabot> "Hell, wold!"
23:51:11 <fizzie> oerjan: You don't agree as to the vegetable?
23:51:32 <oerjan> only minerally
23:52:03 <fizzie> fungot: What is it which can eternal lie, if it not be dead?
23:52:05 <fungot> fizzie: stands alone in its class, and marks a distinct epoch in the history of this bleak realm of ice and death is of the highest of the citys carven towers came into sight the glittering minarets of the city helped us to orient ourselves to the scene of unholy worship, so inspector legrasse and his nineteen colleagues plunged on unguided into black arcades of horror that none of them had vanished he left that garden, each ha
23:52:23 <fizzie> Yeah, I think it broke.
23:54:21 <monqy> cut off?
23:54:49 <monqy> ^style
23:54:50 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft* nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
23:55:27 <fizzie> fungot: Try to be a bit more TERSE, a bit more OPTOMIZED. So you won't get cut off.
23:55:28 <fungot> fizzie: aspinwall spoke again. " these look like clever fnord. if they aren't, they may mean that randolph carter now has no hands well adapted to forming human script." melmoth was widely read and eventually dramatized, but its late date in the land citys history. they were
23:55:38 <fizzie> Not getting it.
23:55:56 <GreyKnight> It's clever fnord, over your head fizzie
23:55:57 <fizzie> Randolph Carter has no hands.
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23:56:29 <oerjan> look cthulhu, no hands!
23:56:29 <GreyKnight> We need more Lovecraftian esolangs
23:56:55 <fizzie> fungot: Does the Great Cthulhu have any hands?
23:56:58 <fungot> fizzie: immediate results were rather discouraging, though they were mercifully blurred, and showed the painstaking methods of the artist not so much with those outside; for there was in the army, and ghouls and night-gaunts. a large detachment of the horned flyers would first of all of the illuminating phosphorescence. creeping up to it from behind the locked portal, he did not even try to give us the churning, fnord fog, the
23:57:09 <fizzie> (Oh no, I dropped a space.)
23:57:14 <GreyKnight> Look, Cthulhu, no fhtagns!
23:57:48 <shachaf> > "Hello, world!" & upon (\x -> (x!!10) `seq` "") %~ tail
23:57:50 <lambdabot> "Hello, word!"
23:57:59 <oerjan> no fhtagns today, my shoggoth's gone away
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