←2013-06-17 2013-06-18 2013-06-19→ ↑2013 ↑all
00:38:36 <tswett> So I'm no longer totally convinced that every Turing machine either halts or does not halt.
00:38:44 <tswett> Maybe Goldbach's conjecture doesn't have a truth value.
00:40:03 <kmc> well definitely there is a TM where ZFC can't prove it halts or doesn't, unless ZFC is inconsistent
00:40:11 <tswett> Right.
00:40:24 <zzo38> It seems to me that a Turing machine must either halts or does not halt (maybe I am wrong); I made a sequent calculus of Turing machine so it halts if and only if it is provable, I think (unless I made a mistake).
00:40:28 <elliott> zfc, more like sucksfc
00:40:50 <kmc> and likewise for whatever other formal logic you want to use to talk about turing machines
00:40:58 <tswett> All the cool kids work in linear logic with no axioms.
00:41:00 <shachaf> zfc38
00:41:11 <shachaf> i would use that axiom system
00:41:28 <kmc> ZFC 98
00:41:29 <zzo38> Different kind of logic are useful for different things.
00:41:35 <tswett> Suddenly I feel like there's a topology here.
00:43:22 <tswett> The singleton set {X} is closed if and only if ZFC proves that X halts or that X does not halt.
00:43:52 <zzo38> So is that how it works?
00:44:09 <tswett> Well, I certainly haven't defined the entire topology yet.
00:44:10 <kmc> well boolean algebras have Stone spaces
00:44:26 <kmc> and this relates logic and topology somehow
00:44:38 <kmc> too bad i know only a little logic and no topology
00:44:49 <zzo38> It is possible to prove that a Turing machine halts if and only if it does halt, but this isn't the case with not halting.
00:45:21 <zzo38> Is there linear logic with no axioms?
00:45:26 <tswett> You're saying that "for all Turing machines X, X does not halt if and only if X does not halt" is not provable?
00:45:33 <tswett> I should say "linear logic with no additional axioms".
00:45:43 <zzo38> O, OK.
00:46:08 <tswett> "In mathematics, Stone's representation theorem for Boolean algebras states that every Boolean algebra is isomorphic to a field of sets." No shit?
00:46:15 <zzo38> tswett: No, I am just saying that it isn't necessarily provable if it doesn't halt. Sometimes it may be.
00:46:23 <tswett> Oh, that.
00:46:37 <Sgeo> tswett, have you seen the pidgeonhole principle?
00:47:12 <shachaf> zzo38: In Potion of Confusing, the message says "All of the objects (except one) are what they seem; there are no secret objects or fake wall or anything like that."
00:47:19 <shachaf> zzo38: Shouldn't that say "fake walls"?
00:47:59 <zzo38> shachaf: I suppose that would work too.
00:48:38 <zzo38> Note that "what they seem" is according to MegaZeux; if you don't know much about MegaZeux then this message probably won't help much. (MegaZeux is open source though, so that might help a bit.)
00:48:48 <shachaf> zzo38: I think "fake wall" is iggrammatical.
00:55:06 <zzo38> I don't intend to fix it right now (although you can fix it if you want to).
00:55:38 <kmc> 'patches welcome'
00:56:31 <shachaf> kmc: I like the thing where someone asks for help with their program and someone suggests a bunch of ways to improve it and they respond with "patches welcome".
00:56:53 <zzo38> Maybe I might fix it later, though.
00:57:02 <zzo38> Such as, when I continue to work on that game and add more levels.
00:57:17 <shachaf> e.g. http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/1gdh5u/help_tracking_down_a_possible_memory_leak_in/
00:57:37 <kmc> heh
00:58:02 <shachaf> kmc: should i give up on the punctuation for "eg, ie, etc", etc.
00:58:02 <elliott> that's just... that specific person
00:58:04 <kmc> "you should use DevURandom instead of DevRandom, unless you want to wait a long time for cryptographically secure genetic results"
00:58:07 <kmc> sigh
00:58:19 <kmc> really questionable that /dev/random should exist
00:58:57 <kmc> in typical configurations urandom is *cryptographically* unpredictable
00:59:01 <Fiora> it works differently on different OSs, doesn't it? like I remember reading that BSD's "random" was actually a PRNG seeded by a guaranteed-safe amount of entropy
00:59:02 <kmc> it's not information-theoretically unpredictable
00:59:13 <shachaf> kmc: where else will i dump my spare entropy hth
01:00:11 <elliott> kmc: i think i heard that /dev/urandom is even better than /dev/random for cryptography for reasons other than speed
01:00:14 <elliott> but i didn't understand the reasons
01:00:22 <kmc> all you need is like 256 bits of entropy at startup and you can generate cryptographically secure random numbers indefinitely
01:00:38 <kmc> for basically the same reason that you can encrypt arbitrarily long things with AES using a 256 bit key
01:00:42 <kmc> except that's probably not /really/ true
01:01:18 <kmc> and i mean 'indefinitely' in a practical sense
01:01:26 <shachaf> can you use aes in ctr mode as a good rng
01:01:34 <kmc> i should think so
01:01:43 <kmc> otherwise it's not a v. good stream cipher
01:01:48 <shachaf> right
01:01:49 <kmc> but i might be missing something
01:01:50 <shachaf> well, would it be slow
01:01:54 <kmc> right
01:02:05 <kmc> Linux urandom uses some cryptographic hashing instead
01:02:06 <Fiora> isn't it typically, like N bits of PRNG seed gets you ~2^N bits of output?
01:02:11 <Fiora> well, like, safe output
01:03:13 <kmc> non-cryptographic PRNGs like Mersenne Twister or MWC256 have a much larger internal state, but I think that's because they need to be fast and can't do much mixing on each output
01:03:28 <kmc> in fact MT has a more expensive step that happens each n words where n words is also the state size
01:04:22 <shachaf> Is there a reason to use a non-cryptographic PRNG except in special cases?
01:04:29 <kmc> speeeeeeeeeeeeed
01:04:40 <kmc> needing a bunch of random numbers quickly isn't that special of a case, to me
01:04:46 <elliott> does anyone happen to use zsh
01:05:01 <kmc> but I do think that language builtin RNGs should err on the side of cryptographic strength
01:05:12 <shachaf> By "special" I meant "non-default".
01:05:24 <kmc> ok then
01:05:28 <shachaf> And my question was really mostly about speed. Are cryptographic PRNGs that much slower?
01:05:39 <Fiora> of course now we have like, RDRAND, soooo
01:05:54 <Fiora> "On a i5-3210M (2.5GHz) Ivybridge (2 cores, 4 threads) I get a peak of ~99.6 million 64 bit rdrands per second with 4 threads which equates to ~6.374 billion bits per second. Not bad at all." wow
01:06:06 <zzo38> Well, I used ARCFOUR in Famicom Hangman, which works fine, even though that is a very slow computer!
01:06:21 <kmc> I like that Python has random.SystemRandom() which is an object with the same API as the random module itself, and using urandom
01:06:26 <kmc> but it would be even better if they were swapped
01:06:36 <kmc> zzo38: did you drop the first several thousand outputs?
01:06:51 <Fiora> I wonder if that will finally get rid of the /dev/random seeding problem.
01:06:56 <zzo38> kmc: It will automatically do that if you don't put the space bar immediately as soon as you turn it on.
01:07:42 <kmc> ok
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01:07:53 * kmc makes plans to cheat at Famicom Hangman using RC4 biases
01:08:04 <elliott> kmc that's illegal
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01:12:50 <zzo38> You could probably do in an emulator since you can step each frame, to make a TAS, I suppose. However, the microphone and the initial contents of RAM are used for additional entropy if available. On the title screen (and after you win and lose), it generates (and discards) at least a thousand random numbers per frame. During the game, it generates and discards one per frame.
01:16:33 <kmc> shachaf: of course, anything that makes default functionality slower will be bad for marketing your language
01:17:19 <kmc> even if there's a fast RNG function, microbenchmark writers won't find it, or they'll complain about how unintuitive it is
01:17:39 <kmc> whereas approximately nobody is microbenchmarking languages on the basis of 'how easy is it to write broken crypto in this language'
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01:18:49 <kmc> i wonder if GHC could support lazy unboxed arrays. keep a bitmap saying whether each element is a thunk or not
01:19:35 <shachaf> Unboxed arrays of machine-word-sized elements?
01:19:40 <kmc> it would be cool to have a language where String is some kind of awesomely efficient rope structure but still has the lazy char-at-a-time semantics
01:19:42 <tswett> Sgeo: yeah, I've seen the pigeonhole principle many times.
01:19:48 <kmc> shachaf: they have to be at least that big, but they could be bigger
01:20:10 <shachaf> Right.
01:20:38 <kmc> (and of course you can hide that and just pad out things smaller than a machine word)
01:21:15 <kmc> i wonder if one should put the bits at the beginning of the array, or have cache line sized chunks each with their own bitmap, or what
01:22:36 <kmc> and if you had an unboxed array of Word32 on a 64-bit machine then you wouldn't need a separate bitmap at all
01:22:57 <kmc> you could put the Word32 in the upper half of the machine word, and tag the low bit
01:23:42 <shachaf> You could do that with any Word32, not just an array...
01:23:49 <elliott> kmc: I like how Haskell's "better string structure" is just an array. :(
01:23:52 <shachaf> putting the tags back in the etc.
01:23:58 <Fiora> kmc: speaking of like nonintuitiveness or whatever, I don't know if you're interested or anything but the way rdrand works is kind of interesting
01:24:50 <kmc> Fiora: I have a vague understanding. it's based on drift between two oscillators, then a conditioner, then an internal PRNG?
01:25:10 <kmc> they do this to avoid having analog components, which need to be redesigned on each die shrink
01:25:21 <Fiora> I meant, like, the UI? basically like, you use the instruction and then it sets a flag if it succeeded, otherwise you can retry
01:25:25 <kmc> oh that
01:25:30 <kmc> yeah interesting
01:25:31 <Fiora> since the bandwidth is limited (100 million calls per second or so?) across cores
01:25:35 <kmc> i bet people get that wrong too
01:25:41 <Fiora> but yeah, the internals are really really cool
01:25:51 <Fiora> like, a *digital* random noise generator
01:26:09 <kmc> also I think in a dream last night I wondered whether the amount of entropy in /dev/random would form an exploitable side channel in some circumstances
01:26:31 <Fiora> would there be a way to derive that information externally?
01:26:46 <kmc> any user program can read /dev/random and see when it blocks
01:26:53 <Fiora> oooh.
01:26:56 <kmc> which tells you about how much /dev/randoming other processes have been doing
01:27:12 <shachaf> `quote dream
01:27:15 <HackEgo> 150) <zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream \ 233) <nddrylliog> back to legal tender, that expression really makes me daydream. Like, there'd be black-market tender. Out-of-town hug shops where people exchange tenderness you've NEVER SEEN BEFORE. \ 243) <Phantom__Hoover> Gregor, yeah, but P
01:27:23 <Fiora> hmmm so like
01:27:41 <shachaf> kmc: Linux has /proc/sys/kernel/random/entropy_avail
01:27:45 <Fiora> I wonder if that could be used as a timing attack, because you could use it to know when other processes are asking for entropy
01:27:51 <kmc> haha nice shachaf
01:27:54 <Fiora> so you could use it to find out when some process is doing some particular thing?
01:27:55 <kmc> Fiora: hm, yeah that too
01:28:10 <Fiora> but I guess if you're on the same box you could already do like a cache timing attack
01:28:44 <kmc> shachaf: mine seems to clim up to 190 and then drop to 128
01:28:47 <kmc> over and over
01:28:52 <shachaf> Yep.
01:28:54 <kmc> is that because it's feeding some of that entropy into urandom?
01:29:00 <shachaf> I don't know.
01:29:05 <shachaf> It goes down to ~3 when you cat /dev/random
01:29:09 <shachaf> s/you/I/
01:29:41 <ion> My entropy availability goes up to eleven.
01:29:45 <elliott> it's because observing the entropy makes it less random clearly
01:30:25 <shachaf> The file read_wakeup_threshold contains the number of bits of entropy required for waking up processes that sleep waiting for entropy from /dev/random. The default is 64. The file write_wakeup_threshold con‐ tains the number of bits of entropy below which we wake up processes that do a select(2) or poll(2) for write access to /dev/random. These values can be changed by writing to the files.
01:32:44 <ion> The value of entropy_avail could be used as a source of entropy.
01:33:02 <shachaf> ion..........................no...........
01:33:57 <ion> shachaf: YOU DON’T SAY?
01:34:41 <shachaf> don't say what
01:36:36 <shachaf> kmc: speaking of keyboards do you think you could make a keylogger based on microphone input of someone typing
01:36:44 <shachaf> (on a laptop)
01:36:51 <kmc> yes i've heard of that
01:37:15 <shachaf> i mean make a flash game or something that secretly logs your passwords
01:38:29 <kmc> HTML5 Microphone API
01:38:42 <ion> HTML5 Keylogging API
01:39:09 <kmc> also HTML5 lets you play and record audio but it has no way to isolate audio from different origins in the acoustic surroundings of the computer!
01:41:51 <zzo38> They are full of dumb things
01:42:12 <shachaf> is CoYoneda a design pattern
01:42:56 <shachaf> i should make a book of design patterns which gradually turns into a maths book
01:43:23 <zzo38> I really think the client should be programmed not to send all keys to the webpage. Someone once at FreeGeek once wanted to use a webpage to test the keyboard, and some keys interfere; I suggested instead to use the program included in Linux for this purpose, which result in not interfering with anything!
01:44:45 <zzo38> (It should also report the size of the document area as the screen resolution, instead of the actual screen resolution, and if a script resizes a window to a specific size, to make it larger than that so that the document area will be of the specified size instead.)
01:45:34 <shachaf> zzo38: you should make a twitter account
01:45:53 <zzo38> I don't want to make a Twitter account; I have no need for such a thing.
01:46:01 <kmc> i should make a book of design patterns which gradually turns into a snake
01:46:18 <shachaf> No one has a *need* for it.
01:46:46 <zzo38> I can just use IRC or whatever.
01:47:00 <shachaf> How can I follow you on IRC?
01:47:23 <zzo38> Use the IRC log file, is one way.
02:12:15 <Sgeo> http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/snuznluz.shtml
02:13:12 <Sgeo> o.O it's an April Fools joke
02:13:51 <elliott> https://www.beeminder.com is sort of the same thing.
02:15:21 <Sgeo> Laughing while describing your service does not seem like the best idea ever
02:15:43 <elliott> hi
02:15:48 <shachaf> what if your service is jokeserver
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02:45:41 <Sgeo> `slist
02:45:42 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
02:45:48 <shachaf> Sgeo...............olist...........
02:46:07 <Sgeo> shachaf, I can do an `olist but it would be a lie
02:46:07 <shachaf> you're updating the wrong comic
02:46:12 <shachaf> don't lie
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03:20:22 <shachaf> @karma-all
03:20:22 <lambdabot> blah 31337
03:20:22 <lambdabot> nobody 2000
03:20:22 <lambdabot> c/c 499
03:20:22 <lambdabot> ( 205
03:20:22 <lambdabot> + 147
03:20:24 <lambdabot> g 141
03:20:26 <lambdabot> libc 56
03:20:28 <lambdabot> dmwit 55
03:20:30 <lambdabot> shachaf 53
03:20:32 <lambdabot> monochrom 52
03:20:34 <lambdabot> ##c 48
03:20:36 <lambdabot> Notepad 46
03:20:38 <lambdabot> Plugin `karma' failed with: <<timeout>>
03:23:38 -!- Frooxius has joined.
03:32:41 <elliott> fizzie: the freenode servers list lies about IPv6. :(
03:45:28 <Sgeo> shachaf, `erfdate
03:46:42 <shachaf> Sgeo: ?
03:47:03 <Sgeo> shachaf, Erfworld updated
03:47:10 <shachaf> And?
03:47:33 <Sgeo> It amuses me that another thing updated that isn't the thing you want to see updated
03:47:42 -!- conehead has joined.
03:48:12 <Sgeo> Note that I didn't say that I'm amused that the thing you want to update didn't update
03:49:23 <shachaf> Duly noted and recorded in your file for future reference.
03:54:18 <kmc> your permanent record
03:54:44 <shachaf> kmc: that's going a little far isn't it
03:54:50 <shachaf> i mean it's permanent
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04:09:58 <oerjan> `? indexed monad
04:10:00 <HackEgo> Indexed monads are just categories enriched over the monoidal category of endofunctors. \ Indexed monads are just monads on an indexed category
04:10:09 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
04:10:19 <shachaf> oerjan: What?
04:10:22 <shachaf> Oh, right.
04:10:40 <shachaf> `run sed -i '2s/$/./' wisdom/indexed\ monad
04:10:44 <HackEgo> No output.
04:10:45 <shachaf> `? indexed monad
04:10:47 <HackEgo> Indexed monads are just categories enriched over the monoidal category of endofunctors. \ Indexed monads are just monads on an indexed category.
04:10:52 <shachaf> Better.
04:11:00 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
04:11:06 <shachaf> help
04:11:18 <copumpkin> http://i.imgur.com/35Qxgty.gif
04:11:21 <kmc> "considered harmful when preceded by its quotation" considered harmful when preceded by its quotation
04:11:23 <oerjan> is that _really_ supposed to be two different lines.
04:11:37 <kmc> copumpkin: what. why.
04:11:37 <oerjan> kmc++
04:11:39 <copumpkin> http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/aXb0Bd6_460sa.gif
04:11:51 <kmc> owls!
04:12:08 <shachaf> oerjan: Yes?
04:12:18 <shachaf> oerjan: There are two different meanings for the phrase. How should I do it?
04:12:37 <oerjan> ...i dunno.
04:13:02 <oerjan> why aren't any of the links loading...
04:13:13 <elliott> because you're still using IE, hth
04:13:33 <oerjan> i think it fails at an earlier point than that hth
04:15:22 <copumpkin> :)
04:15:38 <oerjan> is she eating a kitten help
04:16:07 <elliott> i am
04:18:46 <copumpkin> mmm
04:18:47 <copumpkin> kittens
04:19:48 <oerjan> the other white meat?
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04:24:17 <oerjan> <kmc> 'malicious' is not really the standard <-- i've heard "stupid" is sometimes a good substitute hth
04:35:45 <oerjan> @tell taneb <Taneb> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa[...] <-- you seem stressed you should relax some hth
04:35:45 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
04:36:01 <kmc> @messages
04:36:01 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
04:36:06 <kmc> oh misread
04:36:34 <oerjan> the nicks are just so similar
04:37:17 <shachaf> oerjan: wasn't it "incompetent' hth
04:40:47 <oerjan> shachaf: nope that's a later mangling hth
04:41:11 <shachaf> oerjan: have you ever considered quitting "hth"
04:41:45 <elliott> oerjan: btw op me hth
04:41:51 <shachaf> oerjan: i agree, op elliott
04:42:01 <shachaf> then kick Phantom_Hoover and crown mnoqy
04:42:36 <oerjan> or wait it's been attributed to napoleon hm
04:43:00 <oerjan> of course he obviously said it in french hth
04:43:47 <shachaf> mnoqy is chaotic right
04:45:33 <oerjan> "Le mot impossible n'est pas français."
04:46:42 <shachaf> `olist 894
04:46:43 <HackEgo> olist 894: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
04:49:26 <oerjan> oo
04:52:39 <shachaf> ts
04:55:11 <shachaf> hth
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05:04:53 <elliott> Bike: should i sleep
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05:06:07 <kappabot> no hth
05:06:49 <Bike> kappabot: fuck
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05:20:53 <shachaf> kmc: what is the difference between lovers and 3-colorings of graphs..................
05:21:06 <kmc> baby don't hurt me
05:21:16 <shachaf> drummers have no soul in general hth
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05:40:31 <oerjan> wikiquote seems to doubt the napoleon attribution, given that it is from 2003.
05:41:51 <oerjan> i wonder whether in a generation we will be able to distinguish false and true references at all
05:44:04 <myname> shachaf: wtf @ question
05:44:38 <oerjan> <Taneb> I hope predicative datives come up
05:44:49 <oerjan> `wtf predicative datives
05:44:51 <HackEgo> why predicative datives is like wtf
05:45:43 <oerjan> HackEgo: *Are
05:45:46 <oerjan> *are
05:46:25 <elliott> no its is
05:47:43 <oerjan> <shachaf> mnoqy: whoa dude are linear transformations like concatenative languages <-- you may be confused by the fact they're both monoids hth
05:48:01 <oerjan> or maybe categories
05:48:11 <oerjan> elliott: *it's
05:48:22 <elliott> oerjan: *its
05:48:24 <mnoqy> its its
05:49:08 <elliott> i like how a freenode oper accidentally klined the entirety of webchat
05:49:12 <elliott> by messing up the syntax
05:49:21 <mnoqy> :')
05:49:25 <elliott> and now a billion people are joining #freenode asking why they got klined
05:50:06 <Bike> awesome
05:50:12 <kmc> that is beautiful
05:51:03 <elliott> also #freenode is literally the worst channel
05:51:10 <mnoqy> worse than #esoteric ???
05:51:30 <oerjan> why don't file: pages have a proper history link, i wanted to see if the description has been changed
05:51:56 <elliott> also the kline messages say it was for "harrassing people"
05:52:01 <elliott> so ppl are kind of upset about it
05:52:05 <elliott> *message said
05:52:10 <oerjan> oh i can get to it by pressing edit on the description first
05:52:27 <elliott> oerjan: hm on esolang?
05:52:53 <oerjan> elliott: no on wikipedia.
05:52:58 <elliott> oerjan: perhaps the file is on commons
05:53:00 <oerjan> anyway i found it https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Grand_Junction_from_Mass_Ave.JPG&diff=98335089&oldid=76213178
05:53:14 <oerjan> (edited yesterday)
05:53:19 <elliott> scroll down :P
05:56:25 <oerjan> gah that commons stuff is confusing
05:56:57 <oerjan> something else that irritates me is when people link to commons pictures directly without context
05:59:05 <oerjan> DdEe4Aai? did kmc accidentally switch username and password?
05:59:59 <kmc> that's me
06:00:11 <kmc> why would my wikipedia username be related to anything else
06:00:17 <kmc> it's random
06:00:19 <kmc> password is random as well
06:01:08 <oerjan> concurrent haskell, multiocular o and methylamine... yeah that's kmc all right.
06:01:26 <oerjan> itt kmc has just scrambled to fix his password away from kmc
06:02:18 <kmc> haha
06:02:28 <kmc> you know my interests
06:02:34 <kmc> they reverted my methylamine edit
06:02:36 <kmc> bastards
06:02:42 <oerjan> oh
06:02:44 <kmc> i also tried to create Category:Toroidal foods
06:02:48 <kmc> deleted
06:02:51 <kmc> bastards
06:03:19 <mnoqy> why would anyone delete that!!
06:04:42 <kmc> because they hate freedom
06:05:51 <zzo38> No, it is because they hate toriodal foods.
06:06:16 <kmc> america is about freedom, the freedom to eat foods of any topological genus you like
06:06:22 <kmc> and to deep fry them as well
06:06:58 <oerjan> kmc: technically "concurrent haskell" + "multiocular o" narrows it down to someone in this channel, and "methylamine" does the rest hth
06:07:41 <Bike> what foods have genus, say, three
06:07:41 <shachaf> kmc: what about your reddit username
06:07:44 <oerjan> deep fried bagels, check
06:07:47 <shachaf> once upon a time i knew what it was "but i forgot"
06:08:21 <kmc> i think i'm more obsessed with multiocular o than most
06:08:42 <oerjan> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genus_(mathematics)#Orientable_surface hth
06:08:45 <kmc> Bike: well there are braided breads
06:08:53 <kmc> the holes usually go away in baking I guess
06:09:44 <Bike> oerjan: ?? those aren't foods!
06:09:53 <oerjan> although technically it's only the surface that is toroidal for bakery
06:11:39 <oerjan> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kringle hth
06:12:01 <Bike> oh nice
06:12:09 <shachaf> What happened to all of kmc's edits?
06:12:26 <shachaf> I only see two in -- oh, never mind.
06:13:12 <oerjan> shachaf: they were reverted by the CIA, NSA, FBI and RIAA hth
06:13:31 <oerjan> sometimes with edit wars between the organizations
06:14:11 <shachaf> whew someone deleted the popular culture reference of methylamine
06:14:14 <oerjan> wtf do they use a picture of a german pretzel
06:14:19 <shachaf> popular culture sections are the worst thing
06:14:42 <oerjan> popular culture sections in popular culture: not very popular
06:15:06 <shachaf> (→‎Popular culture: methylamine is not capable of being aware - removed the section because it is just trivia anyway) (undo)
06:15:09 <shachaf> wow
06:15:24 <shachaf> i bet that person kills intelligent calcium, too
06:17:28 <kmc> damn now i'm hungry for a pretzel
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06:24:53 <zzo38> I am not the only one who want a three button mouse with no scroll wheel.
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06:28:35 <shachaf> zzo38: Last time you asked, I looked it up and it seemed possible to order it online.
06:37:37 <shachaf> oh boy a serial mouse
06:40:20 <kmc> cereal mouse
06:42:38 <shachaf> hey remember the house with the x in the middle that people used to draw
06:42:57 <Bike> good house.
06:43:31 <shachaf> gꙬ d house
06:44:15 <kmc> shachaf: no, also what
06:45:04 <shachaf> ?
06:45:37 <kmc> i do not remember this house
06:45:38 <Bike> you draw a house as a square with diagonals with a triangle on top
06:45:52 <Bike> the game is doing it without drawing a line twice
06:45:56 <kmc> oh
06:46:14 <kmc> so you have to start at a vertex of odd degree?
06:46:30 <Bike> yeah it's babby's first eulerian whatever
06:46:37 <Bike> did taht shit back in elementary school man
06:46:59 <shachaf> yes
06:47:12 * Bike Math Expert
06:47:14 <shachaf> by people i mean first-graders (i was once among their ranks)
06:47:19 <shachaf> o
06:47:19 <shachaf> / \
06:47:19 <shachaf> / \
06:47:19 <shachaf> o---o
06:47:19 <shachaf> |\ /|
06:47:21 <shachaf> | X |
06:47:24 <shachaf> |/ \|
06:47:26 <shachaf> o---o
06:47:29 <shachaf> like that
06:47:31 <shachaf> you never did that???????
06:47:35 <kmc> i did it
06:47:37 <Bike> kmc's deprived
06:47:38 <Bike> oh
06:47:43 <kmc> just forgot
06:47:47 <Bike> how the hell is that so common i wonder
06:48:08 <kmc> did you ever join the pen 15 club
06:48:10 <shachaf> did you have the game where you press 1 + 1 = = = = = = = ... in a calculator
06:48:17 <shachaf> and see how high you could get
06:48:19 <kmc> what would that do
06:48:25 <shachaf> add 1 repeatedly
06:48:27 <Bike> missed out on pen 15
06:48:29 <kmc> oh it repeats the last action
06:48:30 <shachaf> (or did you just do the second part (drugz joke))
06:48:35 <kmc> why not 2 * 2 = = = = = =
06:48:40 <kmc> much faster
06:48:42 <shachaf> because the point is inefficiency hth
06:48:45 <Bike> sounds cheap
06:48:45 <kmc> dnh
06:48:50 <shachaf> why not just type 99999999
06:49:00 <Bike> why not just type BB(3)
06:49:02 <kmc> why not just drop out of school and go fuck yourself
06:49:11 <Bike> is that a drugz joke
06:49:13 <kmc> no
06:49:15 <Bike> darn
06:49:17 <kmc> it's a go fuck yourself joke
06:49:18 <Bike> OH that reminds me
06:49:20 <shachaf> no that's just kmc
06:49:27 <shachaf> also this was all in hebrew btw hth
06:49:34 <Bike> at college orientation the coordinator had to clarify by "cigarette" she meant nicotine
06:49:36 <shachaf> not that that matters, except for your club
06:49:44 <Bike> glorious blazeit future
06:49:47 <kmc> haha
06:49:49 <kmc> this is in WA?
06:49:53 <Bike> yeah
06:49:55 <kmc> what context
06:50:03 <kmc> smoking a joint indoors is still a douche move
06:50:04 <elliott> drugz
06:50:04 <kmc> depending
06:50:13 <Bike> just explaining that drugs weren't allowed in this event even if they're legal
06:50:21 <elliott> haha
06:50:32 <elliott> you misspelled drugz
06:50:34 <kmc> we had to clarify that you weren't allowed to give hallucinogens to prefrosh even if they were technically legal
06:50:40 <shachaf> smoking near a building is also a terrible thing to do
06:50:46 <shachaf> if you smoke near a building i can smell it from the inside
06:50:48 <Bike> it's cool how everybody my age is more used to weed than nicotine
06:50:54 <shachaf> and i will "h8 u 4 ever"
06:51:22 <kmc> i think pot smoke smells far less offensive than cig smoke
06:51:29 <shachaf> Oh, but I found someone who's even more sensitive to smoking than I am.
06:51:35 <shachaf> (conal)
06:51:37 <Bike> elliott: my phrase was so boring it wasn't worthy of kool letterz, imo
06:51:47 <kmc> i used to smoke hookah pretty regularly
06:51:54 <shachaf> conal won't "h8 u 4 ever", though, because he's too nice
06:51:55 <elliott> i don't even know what weed smells like #deprivedofdrugz
06:52:00 <elliott> well
06:52:03 <Bike> pot smoke kind of pisses me off but tobacco smoke gets me to leave so
06:52:04 <shachaf> drugzprived
06:52:04 <elliott> i'd probably recognise it
06:52:14 <elliott> thanks to psychic drugz instinct and the internet
06:52:23 <Bike> the kmcnet
06:52:26 <kmc> elliott: how to find out what weed smells like: 1) go to san francisco
06:52:29 <kmc> that's it
06:52:39 <shachaf> kmc tells it like it is
06:53:04 <shachaf> well you could also just download the smell file into your smellotronic of course
06:53:15 <Bike> -nod-
06:53:21 -!- shachaf has set topic: For the other use | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
06:53:21 <elliott> kmc: that sounds like literally the most expensive way to find out what weed smells like imaginable
06:53:42 <shachaf> elliott: um, it's p. cheap hth
06:53:43 <kmc> i think sense of smell doesn't have a small basis set and so smellotronics will never be practical :'(
06:53:47 <shachaf> just take caltrain
06:53:54 <kmc> caltrain doesn't go to hexham
06:53:56 <kmc> except on weekends
06:54:07 <shachaf> and on football/baseball game days
06:54:20 <elliott> so why is it five "a"s
06:54:25 <kmc> whenever the giants play the hexham hexers
06:54:28 <shachaf> join #cslounge-trains to find out
06:54:36 <elliott> haha hexham hexers
06:54:52 <elliott> kmc: imo come to hexham
06:54:56 <kmc> is that a real team or 'football clubbe' as you say
06:55:06 <elliott> i wish
06:55:07 <Bike> does hexham have weed.
06:55:15 <shachaf> elliott: imo come to san francisco
06:55:22 <kmc> i've heard the UK has mostly awful adulterated 'soapbar hash'
06:55:33 <shachaf> http://www.hexhamfc.com/
06:55:41 <Bike> that sounds kind of horrifying.
06:55:47 <shachaf> wow
06:55:55 <shachaf> i clicked-to-play the big flash thing
06:55:56 <Bike> alt. a new and exciting way to clean oneself + sell hemp products to idiots
06:56:01 <shachaf> and there's another click-to-play flash thing inside it
06:56:06 <Bike> hahaha
06:56:07 <kmc> my god
06:56:11 <kmc> how deep does it go
06:56:45 <shachaf> hexhamfc has 163 facebook likes
06:56:54 <shachaf> if you click on the facebook logo it shows you a bigger picture of the facebook logo
06:57:04 <elliott> this website is pretty hexham
06:57:13 <shachaf> i wanted to see if taneb ""liked"" it
06:57:55 <shachaf> Mr Ants
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07:00:22 <shachaf> ok what other games did we play in elementary school
07:01:05 <shachaf> in maths class in third grade we had an ""official"" game where you would think of a number and then go up and name predicates that narrowed it down until it was determined uniquely
07:01:16 <shachaf> that was "a fun game""
07:02:09 <shachaf> maybe i should go back to third grade
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07:27:44 <shachaf> people claiming that Maybe-alikes which don't distinguish Nothing and Just Nothing are monads :'(
07:49:53 -!- nooga_ has joined.
08:32:05 <shachaf> people confusing utf-8 with unicode :'(
08:37:52 <elliott> shachaf: maybe is usually a functor
08:37:55 <elliott> kmc: ^ ^ ^
08:40:49 <shachaf> mnoqy is usually a fungot
08:40:50 <fungot> shachaf: i think she's already in bed and all. she replies, " what does " advice" do? it would require
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09:03:53 <irctc283> ?
09:04:21 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
09:04:26 <elliott> `relcome irctc283
09:04:29 <HackEgo> irctc283: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
09:04:30 <shachaf> ciao
09:04:35 <shachaf> !list
09:04:59 <Lymia> "people claiming that Maybe-alikes which don't distinguish Nothing and Just Nothing are monads :'("
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09:05:02 <Lymia> How do you even make such a thing
09:05:14 <shachaf> not in haskell hth
09:06:18 <Lymia> The only thing I can think of is null values
09:06:22 <Lymia> And I wouldn't call those maybe-alike at all.
09:06:31 <Lymia> Rather, I would call maybes null-like in uses >.<
09:08:41 <fizzie> Wasn't there a Java thing that explicitly called itself a Maybe that did that?
09:46:25 <zzo38> Is there some sequent calculus logic where the turnstile indicates that whatever is on one side is better than that on the other side?
09:48:52 <zzo38> Normally in sequent calculus you have exactly one sequent below the line. What if this rule isn't used? If there is more than one sequent below the line, you still have to use all of them, just as you would for multiple sequents above the line.
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11:18:17 <ais523> @messages?
11:18:17 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
11:21:01 -!- Taneb has joined.
11:24:16 <shachaf> Taneb: There was an olist update while you were gone, by the way.
11:26:53 <Taneb> I saw the update
11:27:49 <shachaf> Taneb: Want to be added to `olist?
11:27:57 <Taneb> Wait, olist
11:28:08 <Taneb> There should have been an slist too
11:28:19 <shachaf> who cares about slist hth
11:28:22 <Taneb> `slist the rogue talks to the dog some more
11:28:23 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
11:28:43 <shachaf> Ugh.
11:28:46 <shachaf> Time to fix slist.
11:28:49 <shachaf> `run head -n1 olist
11:28:51 <HackEgo> head: cannot open `olist' for reading: No such file or directory
11:28:51 <shachaf> `run head -n1 slist
11:28:53 <HackEgo> head: cannot open `slist' for reading: No such file or directory
11:28:54 <shachaf> `run head -n1 bin/olist
11:28:56 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit
11:28:57 <shachaf> `run head -n1 bin/slist
11:29:00 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0"): "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit
11:29:28 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/:/${@:+ }$@:/' bin/slist
11:29:32 <HackEgo> No output.
11:29:33 <shachaf> `slist the rogue talks to the dog some more
11:29:35 <HackEgo> slist the rogue talks to the dog some more: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
11:29:43 <shachaf> Hmm, should it have parentheses or something?
11:29:50 <shachaf> slist (...): ...
11:30:00 <Taneb> shachaf, I hope to see some progress by the time I return
11:30:05 <shachaf> Well, you can always provide those yourself.
11:30:17 <shachaf> I already solved the problem. hth
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14:37:21 <Koen_> okay guys what's up
14:37:26 <Koen_> what's going on in the world?
14:37:41 <Koen_> how great is humanity doing?
14:39:31 <olsner> could be doing greater, I think
14:42:09 <Koen_> what are your suggestions?
14:42:15 <Koen_> what can I do right now about it?
14:43:00 <olsner> you can be vaguely dissatisfied with the current state of humanity
14:43:21 <Koen_> you're so pessimist
14:43:26 <Koen_> or pessimistic
14:51:23 <Koen_> so olsner what about you how are you doing?
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15:46:34 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbAuGclbw0c
15:46:37 <Phantom_Hoover> a video...
15:46:39 <Phantom_Hoover> from bbc comedy...
15:46:43 <Phantom_Hoover> blocked by channel 4
15:46:47 <Phantom_Hoover> on copyright grounds
15:46:54 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't
15:47:24 <olsner> it works from here
15:47:49 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah
15:47:53 <Phantom_Hoover> this is fucking insane
15:59:50 <Taneb> You know what is more insane
16:00:03 <Taneb> The time of tonight's sunset in Reykjavik
16:04:49 <Phantom_Hoover> what time
16:05:01 <Taneb> 2 past midnight
16:08:01 <nooodl> nice
16:08:10 <nooodl> sunrise only about 3 hours later too
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16:15:05 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/d6645df20881164379949e93bc2c08ae/tumblr_mojnlaGspx1rdbszlo1_1280.jpg
16:15:54 <Taneb> Bike, what game is that
16:16:04 <Bike> crusader kings ii
16:16:05 <Phantom_Hoover> victoria something wasn't it
16:22:47 <fizzie> The trials and tribulations of living in a metric country: camera tripod mounts use a 1/4 inch UNC thread, but the local hardware stores sell nuts and bolts only in the metric system.
16:31:25 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
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16:43:06 <nooodl> "The above reaction occurs explosively with enough force to shatter a Pyrex beaker."
16:43:08 <nooodl> thanks wikipedia
16:43:35 <olsner> does it go dink or boom?
16:43:41 <nooodl> (caesium + water forming caesium hydroxide)
16:46:34 <Phantom_Hoover> ugh
16:46:36 <Phantom_Hoover> caesiu,
16:46:40 <Phantom_Hoover> *caesium
16:46:42 <Phantom_Hoover> so overrated
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17:08:41 <brendalis> hola busco a personas para charlar un rato
17:10:52 <Phantom_Hoover> oh god
17:10:55 <Phantom_Hoover> not another spaniard
17:11:09 <myname> did this happen frequently?
17:11:16 <Phantom_Hoover> it happened once before
17:11:29 <Phantom_Hoover> they started slinging abuse at me in spanish for some reason
17:16:21 <brendalis> holis
17:16:58 <Phantom_Hoover> are you... argentinian?
17:18:05 -!- nooga has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
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17:28:20 <brendalis> no hay nadien que hable espanol
17:28:50 <myname> english, motherfucker, do you speak it?
17:28:56 <Phantom_Hoover> brendalis, no
17:29:29 <Phantom_Hoover> el ltimo hombre que hablaba espaol dej tras decir algunas cosas sobre mi madre
17:31:52 <nooodl> Phantom_Hoover: was that google translated or do you actually hablas español?
17:31:53 <brendalis> aprendan a hablar español
17:32:20 <nooodl> lol
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17:32:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Ya soy fluido en espaol gracias
17:32:48 <olsner> myname: español, do you habla it?
17:33:07 <myname> nein, aber ich spreche deutsch
17:33:15 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you're not utf-8 hth
17:33:22 <Phantom_Hoover> i know
17:33:30 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't know how to change xchat's character set
17:33:36 <olsner> myname: natürlich
17:34:24 <oerjan> let's just make it easy for everyone and ban xchat hth
17:34:32 <olsner> nooo
17:34:49 <myname> tbh i don't get your "hth" stuff everywhere
17:34:53 <oerjan> olsner: ok ban it _unless_ you make utf-8 work properly.
17:34:56 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: it's in the settings hth
17:34:59 <nooodl> ctrl+S
17:35:05 <nooodl> freenode -> edit -> char set -> utf-8
17:35:10 <nooodl> (it's per server :'))
17:35:12 <nooodl> (hth)
17:35:19 <Phantom_Hoover> what
17:35:20 <Phantom_Hoover> the fuck
17:35:25 <Bike> hello
17:35:30 <nooodl> hi
17:36:33 <oerjan> myname: fwiw it's the hth singularity hth
17:37:56 <olsner> someone should make hth into an esolang of some sort
17:38:05 <myname> now it makes sense
17:38:22 <myname> olsner: like a default answer of java2k?
17:38:32 <olsner> not sure hth
17:38:34 <myname> "2+2" "5, hth"
17:40:50 <oerjan> `run ls bin/*elc*es
17:40:54 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/*elc*es: No such file or directory
17:41:06 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/*elc*es
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17:41:08 <HackEgo> wisdom/welcome.es
17:41:15 <oerjan> darn
17:43:23 <Bike> `? welcome.es
17:43:25 <HackEgo> ​¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
17:43:39 <oerjan> TOO LATE NOW
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17:55:05 <FreeFull> `run run run run run
17:55:06 <HackEgo> bash: run: command not found
17:55:20 <myname> do do run run run, do do run run
17:55:35 <FreeFull> `run $0 $0 $0 $0 $0 $0 $0 $0
17:55:36 <HackEgo> ​/bin/bash: /bin/bash: cannot execute binary file
17:56:07 <FreeFull> `run $0 exec $0 exec $0 exec $0 exec $0 exec $0 exec $0 exec $0
17:56:09 <HackEgo> bash: exec: No such file or directory
17:56:18 <FreeFull> Hmm, it expects a script
17:56:36 <Bike> `run echo $0
17:56:37 <HackEgo> bash
17:57:07 <FreeFull> `run $0 -c $0 -c $0 -c $0 -c $0 -c $0 -c $0 -c $0
17:57:36 <FreeFull> `run $0 -c $0 -c $0 -c $0 -c $0 -c $0 -c $0 -c $0 -c echo $0
17:57:38 <HackEgo> bash: cannot set terminal process group (-1): Inappropriate ioctl for device \ bash: no job control in this shell \ bash-4.1$
17:57:53 <myname> what
17:58:07 <HackEgo> bash: cannot set terminal process group (-1): Inappropriate ioctl for device \ bash: no job control in this shell \ bash-4.1$
17:58:29 <FreeFull> Hrm
18:00:06 <ais523> perhaps you ran out of ptys or something?
18:02:14 <FreeFull> Nah
18:02:22 <FreeFull> It just did something different
18:04:32 <ais523> actually, it's probably something to do with HackEgo's sandboxing
18:06:44 <Bike> `run $0 -c $0 -c yes
18:06:56 <Bike> ok...
18:07:15 <HackEgo> bash: cannot set terminal process group (-1): Inappropriate ioctl for device \ bash: no job control in this shell \ bash-4.1$
18:22:14 -!- nortti has quit (*.net *.split).
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18:28:36 <oerjan> `run bash -c 'echo hi'
18:28:37 <HackEgo> hi
18:29:12 <oerjan> `run bash
18:29:27 <oerjan> wat
18:29:43 <HackEgo> bash: cannot set terminal process group (-1): Inappropriate ioctl for device \ bash: no job control in this shell \ bash-4.1$
18:29:49 <oerjan> right
18:30:51 <oerjan> FreeFull: i think the problem is the -c's aren't actually _nested_, but done in parallel, so you are running bash instances with no arguments, which means interactive.
18:31:21 <oerjan> you're going to need some fearsome escaping to get them nested
18:31:23 <myname> bash -c "bash -c echo foo"?
18:31:48 <oerjan> *nested deeply
18:58:14 -!- brendalis has joined.
18:58:38 <tswett> elliott: so have you heard about your younger brother? His name is Oliver.
18:58:42 <tswett> He was born about a month ago.
18:58:43 <brendalis> HOLA
18:58:44 <brendalis> CHAO
18:58:47 <tswett> Hi brendalis.
18:59:20 <brendalis> YO SOY BRENDALIS
18:59:22 <Bike> `? welcome.es
18:59:24 <HackEgo> ​¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
18:59:45 <brendalis> NADA
19:00:52 <`^_^v> `? welcome.ru
19:00:54 <HackEgo> welcome.ru? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:00:58 <brendalis> NO HAY NADIEN
19:01:30 <myname> `? welcome.bf
19:01:32 <HackEgo> welcome.bf? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:01:35 <myname> :(
19:01:55 <oerjan> myname: i think that might not fit on one irc line hth
19:02:49 <brendalis> :-D
19:07:13 <brendalis> HOLA :)
19:07:41 <Phantom_Hoover> `? tswett
19:07:44 <HackEgo> tswett is livin' it up with the penguins
19:07:52 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote nephew
19:07:54 <HackEgo> 173) <tswett> elliott: just to bring you up to speed, you are now my baby nephew. <olsner> wtf, elliott is a nephew and his uncle is here? <nooga> what <tswett> Heck yes I'm elliott's uncle.
19:08:12 <brendalis> COMO ESTA:-[
19:08:17 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, have you come to terms with being australian yet
19:08:40 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: yep.
19:08:40 <Phantom_Hoover> brendalis, donde esta la biblioteca
19:08:51 <tswett> Gudday mate. Drop bears.
19:09:34 <kmc> '; DROP BEARS --
19:10:09 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, also dingoes
19:10:14 <Phantom_Hoover> and shrimps on barbies
19:10:24 <Phantom_Hoover> (also don't australians say 'cunt' a lot)
19:10:40 <brendalis> NO
19:11:08 <Phantom_Hoover> sorry brendalis-- wait what do you know about australia
19:11:22 <tswett> Oh right, right. Cunt.
19:11:48 <tswett> Cunt cunt cunt. Barbie. Drop bears. Dingo.
19:12:11 <Phantom_Hoover> crikey
19:12:15 <Phantom_Hoover> you can't forget crikey
19:12:23 <tswett> Crikey cunt koala.
19:12:28 <Bike> ew
19:12:28 <Phantom_Hoover> and 'mate', but i was leaving that one out because it was so obvious
19:13:00 <tswett> Ahoy, cunt. Yarr. Barbie.
19:13:52 <tswett> Cambra. Kangaroo.
19:13:55 <brendalis> NO ENTIENDO TU HITIOMA
19:14:09 <brendalis> OK
19:14:10 <kmc> Bloq mayús: control de crucero para impresionar
19:16:48 <Phantom_Hoover> brendalis, no es obvio a estas alturas que se trata de un canal de habla Ingls (y finlands)
19:17:08 <brendalis> no
19:17:16 <brendalis> se treta de hablar en español
19:17:55 <brendalis> y para que sepas
19:17:55 <brendalis> y veas que es en español metete
19:18:04 <tswett> Hola brendalis, ¿cómo estás?
19:18:04 <brendalis> mañana y ya veras
19:18:11 <brendalis> bn y tu
19:18:31 <Phantom_Hoover> ves que no vas a encontrar a nadie a hablar con usted aqu, sino por google translate
19:18:45 <tswett> Mm, bien.
19:19:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Por qu me tienes que socavar Tswett
19:19:11 <tswett> Hm, cómo se dice "I've been playing Starcraft".
19:19:19 <brendalis> jajajajaja
19:19:21 <tswett> Qué es "socavar"?
19:19:27 <Phantom_Hoover> wow
19:19:40 <brendalis> te caiste con los kilos menol
19:19:40 <Phantom_Hoover> google translate... can't keep track of subjects and objects
19:19:54 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Yo no comprendo nada).
19:20:14 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: me parece correcto. "Por qué me tienes que socavar" = "why do you have to undermine me".
19:20:50 <Phantom_Hoover> In that case it got confused when I put it back into English to see if it made any sense.
19:21:30 -!- sebbu3 has joined.
19:22:17 <tswett> "He estado jugando", eh? Bueno... he estado jugando Starcraft. Trato de entrar en la Silver League.
19:22:37 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, why...
19:22:44 <Phantom_Hoover> why isn't silver league translated into spanish
19:22:53 <tswett> Bueno, bueno.
19:22:58 <tswett> Trato de entrar en la liga Silver.
19:23:09 <brendalis> de donde heres
19:23:33 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:23:52 <tswett> Soy de los EEUU. Míchigan.
19:23:56 -!- carado has joined.
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19:25:57 <Phantom_Hoover> OK so
19:26:10 <Phantom_Hoover> surely somewhere there is a website with dimensions of things
19:26:23 <Phantom_Hoover> so if you need a quick comparison you can look one up
19:27:33 <Taneb> howbigisthething.com
19:27:34 -!- sebbu3 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:27:55 <Taneb> (note: that does note exist)
19:28:26 <Phantom_Hoover> oh, does it note?
19:28:43 <tswett> PUES
19:28:45 <tswett> A ESTUDIAR
19:29:03 <tswett> ADIÓS A TODOS my good friends
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19:44:38 <brendalis> odos haqui son aburrido yo me voy para chat version 2
19:44:38 -!- brendalis has left.
19:45:19 <Lumpio-> jag förstår inte
19:47:37 <Fiora> that person randomly messaged me too...
19:47:42 <Fiora> did he PM everyone or something?
19:49:17 <Phantom_Hoover> no
19:49:19 <Phantom_Hoover> no he did not
19:49:27 <Phantom_Hoover> perhaps he thought your nick was spanish
19:49:59 <Fiora> Huh
19:51:36 <Phantom_Hoover> random people who just joined pming you sure is weird
19:51:46 <shachaf> i never get randomly messaged........is my nick not intriguing enough
19:52:12 <Fiora> it is weird :/ though sometimes I wish it happened a little more often... or well, maybe not the random people who just joined part.
19:59:28 <FreeFull> I sometimes get randomly messaged on here
20:00:01 <FreeFull> Probably because of ##gaygeeks
20:00:26 <nooodl> shachaf: once, some hebrew speaking guy will message you out of nowhere hth
20:00:48 <Fiora> freenode has lgbt channels? huh, cool
20:00:54 <shachaf> nooodl: oh that happens sometimes
20:01:15 <nooodl> i should make my name more obviously dutch...
20:01:24 <FreeFull> Fiora: It has had for quite a long time
20:01:28 <Phantom_Hoover> njooojdl
20:01:29 <nooodl> i hear half of #haskell is dutch
20:01:34 <FreeFull> Although #gaygeeks is more popular than ##gaygeeks
20:01:47 <Fiora> there's... two different ones?
20:01:48 <Phantom_Hoover> (njiiijdl?)
20:01:58 <nooodl> njiiijdlsch
20:02:08 <Phantom_Hoover> FreeFull, is #gaygeeks older than the ## rule
20:02:17 <ais523> I only get randomly PMed when I'm active
20:02:30 <ais523> most often when I'm telling someone new to #nethack that no, the channel is not about hacking into networks
20:02:39 <Fiora> *pfff*
20:02:43 <FreeFull> Phantom_Hoover: #gaygeeks was the original but there was a schism
20:02:43 <ais523> probably like 30% of the time their response is to ask the same question again, except in a PM to me
20:02:54 <nooodl> ais523: that's happened to me ooonce i think
20:02:54 <shachaf> active in politics?
20:02:56 <nooodl> it's cute
20:03:04 <Phantom_Hoover> FreeFull, over whether or not you should heed network policies on channel names?
20:03:05 <shachaf> don't you have to be voted for or something
20:03:23 <shachaf> (the joke is: prime ministered)
20:03:31 <FreeFull> Phantom_Hoover: No
20:03:33 <nooodl> Phantom_Hoover: if i start a new channel and it doesn't have ## will i die
20:03:42 <FreeFull> I do believe it's quite a lot older than the policy
20:03:44 <shachaf> also i watched a bit of yes, prime minister recently so that's probably the reason for the joke
20:03:45 <nooodl> this is my biggest freenode worry
20:03:47 <Phantom_Hoover> nooodl, no it's like
20:04:07 <Phantom_Hoover> if you're the 'official' representative of that name you can have #
20:04:10 <Phantom_Hoover> otherwise ##
20:04:25 <nooodl> fwvo 'official'?
20:04:27 <shachaf> what if the name starts with #
20:04:52 <nooodl> then an official channel is ##hi and an unofficial one is ###hi
20:05:07 <shachaf> what if the name is an infinite sequence of #s
20:05:12 <nooodl> hmm i guess that COULD conflict with like
20:05:16 <nooodl> the unofficial channel for "hi"
20:05:17 <shachaf> then the official and unofficial channels are the same channel
20:05:26 <Phantom_Hoover> no they're not
20:05:37 <Phantom_Hoover> the unofficial channel for hi is the official channel for #hi
20:05:54 <nooodl> shachaf is talking to himself hth
20:06:45 <shachaf> thoooooooodl
20:08:46 <nooodl> wow. the dutch word for "propyne" is pronounced "propene"
20:08:53 <nooodl> the dutch word for "propene" is pronounced "propane"
20:09:12 <nooodl> and the dutch word for "propane" is pronounced "pro-pahn"
20:10:49 <olsner> it's just english that has its vowels wrong
20:15:12 <FreeFull> How is the dutch word for "propahn" pronounced?
20:16:10 <nooodl> hmm "propahn" is a fixed point here
20:18:08 <FreeFull> > words . repeat $ propahn
20:18:10 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `propahn'
20:18:17 <FreeFull> > words . repeat $ "propahn"
20:18:18 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char'
20:18:18 <lambdabot> with actual type...
20:18:22 <FreeFull> > unwords . repeat $ "propahn"
20:18:23 <lambdabot> "propahn propahn propahn propahn propahn propahn propahn propahn propahn pr...
20:18:45 <Phantom_Hoover> nooodl, is there anything that would get shifted to 'y'
20:19:33 <nooodl> not really
20:19:38 <nooodl> man, how is "propyne" even pronounced
20:19:47 <nooodl> pro-pin or pro-pine?
20:20:01 <Phantom_Hoover> pine
20:21:36 <oklopol> it's prpn
20:21:46 <myname> porn?
20:21:54 <nooodl> "propaine" would be pronounced "propyne" roughly
20:22:51 <nooodl> (the same way e.g. "cocaine" is pronounced rougly as "ko-kine")
20:23:01 <oklopol> it is?
20:23:04 <nooodl> the stress is on the /i/ part of the diphthong though
20:23:10 <oklopol> i thought it was pronounced co-cain
20:23:12 <nooodl> "ko-kah-EE-nuh"
20:23:22 <nooodl> (dutch)
20:23:41 <oklopol> wait which language are we talking about
20:24:06 <nooodl> english words pronounced as dutch reinterpreted as dutch hth
20:24:41 <oklopol> but of course
20:33:47 -!- brendalis has joined.
20:34:31 <brendalis> HOLA
20:34:34 <kmc> http://www.freebsd.org/security/advisories/FreeBSD-SA-13:06.mmap.asc 'Due to insufficient permission checks in the virtual memory system, a tracing process (such as a debugger) may be able to modify portions of the traced process's address space to which the traced process itself does not have write access.'
20:34:48 -!- brendalis has left.
20:35:13 <Fiora> ooooh. that's sneaky
20:35:26 <kmc> yeah
20:35:45 <Fiora> so basically, Foo opens a file for read, Bar opens a debugger and connects it to Foo, and Bar abuses its debugger access to modify the file.
20:35:50 <kmc> yep
20:35:56 <Fiora> I'm guessing mmappish?
20:35:59 <kmc> all of which you can do without special privileges
20:36:04 <kmc> yeah Foo mmaps the file
20:36:19 <kmc> so yeah you can write to any file you have permission to read
20:37:07 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:37:40 <Fiora> that's evil
20:37:54 -!- Bike_ has joined.
20:38:53 <kmc> Linux has a history of dumb bugs too, but I feel like this particular one would have been discovered quickly in Linux
20:39:04 <kmc> not sure though
20:39:23 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:39:24 <kmc> ptrace is like an infinite source of privilege escalation bugs
20:39:31 -!- clog has joined.
20:39:49 <Fiora> yeah... I remember seeing it show up a lot
20:39:52 <Fiora> it seems like it'd be super hard to secure
20:39:56 -!- Bike has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
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20:40:06 <kmc> scariest parts of linux: ptrace, backwards compat layers, gpu access, any little-used driver / filesystem / protocol
20:40:12 <kmc> ok that might be most of linux ;)
20:40:37 <Bike_> burn!!
20:41:02 <Fiora> gpu access is probably scary everywhere >_<
20:41:12 <Fiora> I've heard that amd/nvidia drivers are something like as big as the entire linux kernel source tree
20:41:15 <kmc> yeah
20:41:33 <kmc> and the open-source drivers are smaller, but still awful terrible code, plus they're based on an incomplete understanding of the hardware
20:41:33 <Fiora> it's terrifying, it's like, the drivers /just for a single piece of hardware/ are like, bigger than all the other drivers
20:41:42 <Fiora> yeah, I meant like the official ones
20:41:48 <kmc> hey i have a great idea let's make all of that attack surface accessible to untrusted javascript code
20:41:52 <Fiora> XD
20:41:55 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
20:42:43 <kmc> i assume there is also a large amount of code that runs on the card itself
20:43:50 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
20:43:59 <kmc> at this point I basically understand a "computer" to be a network of specialized computers communicating over various buses
20:44:10 -!- Bike_ has joined.
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20:47:38 <Bike_> http://24.media.tumblr.com/a0ad2807df0a09e378e1adf7d60ebced/tumblr_molqtoCHcF1qh3h8wo1_500.png PRISM comix
20:47:43 <nooodl> oh hey wow python has "cyclic infinite lists"
20:48:02 <nooodl> a = [1, [2, [3, None]]]; a[1][1][1] = a
20:48:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike_, this is the kind of prism comix i can get behind
20:50:30 -!- Bike has joined.
20:50:40 <Fiora> kmc: it still kind of amazes me that like, this "graphics driver" thing converts things like opengl and directx commands, in crazy ultra fast realtime, into a bunch of like, floating point assembly code that gets run on the gpu
20:50:44 <Bike> nooodl: so uh, the same infinite lists you get in anything with modifiable lists?
20:50:48 <Fiora> and somehow it like, all works, and happens in milliseconds
20:50:48 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: was opposed to what
20:51:03 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean in the general sense
20:51:34 <nooodl> Bike: yup, except they're not actually infinite lists
20:51:46 <Bike> what's not infinite about it
20:51:48 <nooodl> a contains itself but isn't a sublist of itself
20:51:51 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: i don't get it
20:52:15 <Bike> nooodl: well that's because you're using arrays in that way.
20:52:20 <Bike> if you define "sublist" appropriately...
20:52:25 <nooodl> you have to use a as a "linked list" kinda thing. there's no way to actually construct [1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, ...]
20:52:53 -!- Bike_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
20:54:02 -!- Bike_ has joined.
20:54:27 <Bike_> fucking hell
20:56:55 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:57:06 <Fiora> you should use an IRC bouncer thing <.<
20:57:53 <shachaf> or an irc client running on a server thing
20:57:57 <kmc> that one
20:58:24 <Fiora> isnt that like the same thing? or...
20:58:43 <Bike_> sounds complicated
21:00:05 <kmc> sort of the same thing
21:00:33 <kmc> with a bouncer you run a local IRC client that connects to the bouncer
21:00:40 <kmc> somehow
21:00:52 <kmc> i think it's simpler to just run irssi on the server and ssh/mosh in
21:00:57 <kmc> but i haven't tried the bouncer approach
21:01:06 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
21:02:08 <Fiora> ah
21:02:15 <Fiora> I've only done the latter thing
21:11:41 -!- clog has joined.
21:12:42 <quintopia> it would be simple if bitlbee hadn't just utterly broken around when my iptables rules disappeared
21:13:16 <quintopia> wtf
21:13:30 <quintopia> myndzi sent me messages and i don't know what they are about
21:13:38 <ion> Also check out Minbif.
21:13:48 <quintopia> i think he must be replying to messages i sent a million years ago
21:20:57 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
21:24:33 -!- Bike has joined.
21:32:19 <fizzie> You can also do the thing where the irssi on the server *is* the bouncer you connect to.
21:32:56 <kmc> oh?
21:33:00 <fizzie> There's an irssi module called "proxy" for that.
21:33:09 <fizzie> Though it's been kind of sucky at times; I don't know how it is nowadays.
21:33:13 <kmc> odd
21:33:36 <kmc> hm bouncer method seems less secure too, unless you bother tunneling it over ssh
21:33:48 <fizzie> I think it's for people who have a shell account somewhere and irssi there, but also want to use a GUI client when at home.
21:33:53 <kmc> you may trust the connection from your server to freenode more than random laptop public wifi
21:34:04 <fizzie> Or you do SSL; I think most bouncers support that.
21:34:10 <fizzie> Mine does authentication with client certs.
21:34:13 <kmc> then you have to juggle certs :(
21:34:16 <kmc> well ok
21:34:17 <Fiora> quassel supports SSL, it seems?
21:34:22 <kmc> I'm biased because Mosh ;P
21:34:48 <kmc> i knew a guy who ran all of his laptop network traffic through OpenVPN in UDP mode
21:34:57 <kmc> so all of his local clients would roam
21:35:08 <kmc> it was pretty sweet
21:35:33 <fizzie> I think 99% of my talk through the bouncer these days comes through the irssi running on the same server as the bouncer; I just had this period of trying out a number of clients, and the bouncer made that easier.
21:35:48 <fizzie> (The last percent is that Android IRC client thing.)
21:37:34 <Bike> client+server+bouncer is kind of an odd architecture...
21:37:58 <fizzie> Sometimes it's client-client + client-server + bouncer + server.
21:38:35 <fizzie> Though maybe people who use clients that involve a separate server component don't do bouncers?
21:39:34 <kmc> i'm talking to you right now by typing on a keyboard which emulates a 1980s keyboard protocol to talk to an X server which sends those keystrokes over a UNIX socket to another program which emulates a 1970s terminal and sends them on to another program which encrypts them and sends them out in UDP packets to another program emulating a 1970s terminal, running on an OS derived from a hobbyist's recreation of 1980s UNIX, which is actual
21:39:41 <kmc> ogram inside that terminal then talks to freenode
21:39:57 <Bike> so, computers are dumb
21:40:03 <kmc> no they are the best
21:40:22 <Bike> it is cool how "building on the ruins" it obviously is
21:40:28 <kmc> yeah
21:40:38 <kmc> soon Linux and x86 will just be a compatibility layer
21:40:43 <Bike> especially during boot~
21:40:47 <kmc> providing none of the actual services they were designed to
21:41:04 <fizzie> "-- which is actual" "ogram inside --" there seems to be a bit of a discontinuity there.
21:41:20 <kmc> actually compiled to run as a virtual machine on another OS I don't have access to, and the program inside that terminal then talks to freenode
21:41:29 <kmc> sorry, i was copy-pasting from a description i gave earlier elsewhere
21:41:35 <kmc> because damn if I can be bothered to type that all again
21:41:49 <kmc> it's like that interview question "You type google.com at a browser and hit enter. What happens?"
21:42:06 <Bike> if i'm ever asked that i swear i'll answer with monadology
21:42:14 <kmc> i hope so
21:42:27 <kmc> someone told me that good candidates start with switch debouncing
21:42:43 <Bike> "Perfect! We've been looking for philosopher to join the DogBook team"
21:42:43 <fizzie> How about the people who start scribbling down the wave function of the enter key?
21:43:03 <kmc> one of these days i should learn how transistors work
21:43:15 <Bike> oh i'm taking "design of logic circuits" this semester
21:43:22 <Fiora> That sounds cool
21:43:24 <Bike> is that remotely electronicy, or more like vhdl
21:43:33 <Bike> probably the latter i guess
21:43:35 <fizzie> It doesn't sound very electronicy.
21:43:43 <fizzie> But of course you can't trust names.
21:43:47 <Bike> i hope i can take a good course on circuitry sometime
21:43:53 <Bike> i think i do have elctrodynamics at some point so that's nice.
21:44:16 <kmc> i really blew off freshman E&M
21:44:20 <kmc> sometimes i regret it, a little
21:44:21 <fizzie> We had some obligatory eletronics, but it was mostly just calculating numbers in circuits with op-amps in them.
21:44:28 <Bike> boo.
21:44:40 <Bike> i might have to take electrophysiology at some point. now that's something to look forward to
21:44:59 <fizzie> (Some people seem to consider op-amps quite holy.)
21:45:10 <Bike> "so you know how capacitors work, right? well a cell membrane is like a capacitor. but ALSO like a resistor. Plus it varies across the surface"
21:45:44 <kmc> transmission lines are also that
21:46:05 <kmc> you know what's kind of weird? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect
21:46:31 <Bike> that is weird
21:46:33 <fizzie> You know what's kind of weird? Physics.
21:46:36 <Phantom_Hoover> i love that kind of thing
21:46:47 <Phantom_Hoover> it feels so... topological? geometric?
21:46:48 <Bike> from what i can tell electrophysiology doesn't work with basic electrodynamics very well
21:47:01 <Bike> since you have like, proteins transporting individual calcium ions
21:47:08 <kmc> i was at MITERS and they were using braided conductors for some kind of scary high voltage and/or high current project
21:47:11 <Bike> how do you even get a voltage out of that
21:48:04 <kmc> actually do you know what the REALLY high current "crush metal objects with magnetic fields" project used for a conductor? copper pipe with coolant flowing through it
21:48:07 <Bike> kmc: wow transmission lines look hard
21:48:43 <Phantom_Hoover> hey Bike i heard the hairy ball theorem has applications in cell electrowhatevers
21:49:05 <Bike> ugh it probably does
21:49:23 <Phantom_Hoover> why ugh!
21:49:28 <Phantom_Hoover> hairy ball theorem is best theorem
21:49:30 <kmc> http://everything2.com/user/iceowl/writeups/No+user+serviceable+parts+inside classic story
21:49:31 <Bike> because it's just another cool thing i don't understand
21:50:26 <Bike> i get up to http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/5/e/c/5ec607907b2588dc038c1ef0168475dc.png and my eyes glaze over
21:50:59 <Bike> kmc: that's kind of cool to see after i drove past bonneville yesterday.
21:51:15 <kmc> ?
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21:51:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, jesus
21:51:51 <Phantom_Hoover> (the proof isn't that bad!)
21:52:14 <Bike> kmc: just, i drove through the columbia gorge, which is full of damns and massive fucking power lines
21:52:31 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: wow fuck i just realized that's a fourth derivative ;_;
21:52:35 <kmc> oh cool
21:52:51 <kmc> communism is Soviet power plus the electrification of the whole country
21:52:53 <Bike> it's kind of neat to think that i get most of my power from a historic dam
21:53:03 <Phantom_Hoover> re electricity, i direct you to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmOfxuI_gXg
21:53:07 <Bike> even if everyone here hates the administration
21:53:13 <kmc> i guess that's why there's a hydro plant on the seal of north korea
21:53:19 <Bike> heh
21:53:31 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: whoa ._.
21:53:36 <Phantom_Hoover> wait
21:53:41 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqgNrj6oEdc was the one i was looking for
21:54:05 <Bike> "You can actually help the electric company supply the world. Your electric meter runs backward and you suspect you've just discovered a great way for the university to save money through the totally inefficient, indirect generation of power through diesel generators." lol
21:54:14 <kmc> the trollybuses in SF say "ZERO EMISSIONS VEHICLE" which I thought was kind of bullshit until I realized the electricity comes from the Hetch Hetchy hydroelectric plants
21:54:32 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: i'm amazed the cameraperson didn't fucking bolt
21:54:50 <Phantom_Hoover> there's a diagram of the yangtze
21:54:54 <kmc> oh yeah those are the best Phantom_Hoover
21:55:04 <Phantom_Hoover> where it's like an elevation map and it has all the dams drawn on it
21:55:23 <itsy> Has anyone designed their own tshirt with a program printed on it? I'm just trying to now via several online t-shirt studios... Unfortunately they're all a bit of a pain (not supporting monospace fonts, etc).
21:55:58 <kmc> i used Zazzle once and uploaded a huge-res png
21:56:01 <kmc> worked fine
21:56:13 <kmc> i think they take PDF too but I wanted to do the rasterization myself just in case
21:56:13 <Phantom_Hoover> i liked it because it made me realise that hydro power is basically just a matter of mass flow and potential difference along the river's course
21:56:56 <Bike> huh, i wonder if they use that to teach how electrical current works.
21:57:09 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah, that's the standard analogy
21:57:19 <Bike> well water yeah
21:57:21 <Phantom_Hoover> well, gravity is
21:57:22 <Bike> hydropower though?
21:57:25 <kmc> it was a shirt that says "Beweis: klar. □" in LaTeX / Computer Modern
21:57:33 <Phantom_Hoover> i dunno
21:57:49 <Bike> maybe they do around here. hmmmmm
21:58:03 <itsy> kmc: I might try that, thanks...
21:58:18 <Phantom_Hoover> you could definitely do a good demonstration with it
21:58:23 <Bike> yeah
21:58:26 <Bike> also, awesome field trip
21:59:35 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-UTYzfNjKM
21:59:56 <Bike> it's weird how "Computer Architecture" and "Electromagnetic Fields and Waves" are both EE...
22:00:12 <kmc> at MIT they put EE and CS in the same major even
22:00:24 <kmc> although you can declare like a concentration within Course VI
22:00:41 <Bike> really, i thought they'd split them up by now.
22:00:50 <fizzie> kmc: The Helsinki metro advertises itself visibly as zero-emission in the regional-public-transit-route-finder guilt-trip emissions-for-different-modes-of-transit tables produced along the routes; that's because the electricity comes from "Finnish hydropower". (They don't give more details on that.)
22:00:50 <Bike> kmc: also: i'm never going to look at substations the same way again ;_;
22:00:58 <Bike> "that was cool"
22:01:26 <fizzie> Also I think the trams too.
22:01:54 <fizzie> (Oh, there's the details. "When you travel by tram or metro in Helsinki, you are using electricity produced by Finnish hydropower supplied by Helsingin Energia. -- HKL purchases the electricity needed for the tram and metro services from Helsingin Energia as certified hydropower, which means that the electricity is certified to have been produced by hydropower. Helsingin Energia produces ...
22:02:00 <fizzie> ... electricity by hydropower at the Mankala, Ahvenkoski, Klåsarö and Ediskoski hydropower plants located by the River Kymijoki as well as at the Kemijoki power plant.")
22:02:18 <Bike> oh nice, there's an undergrad course covering ASIC
22:02:26 <Bike> and FPGAs
22:02:41 <kmc> Bike: did you see there's a Coursera course on how to write your own VLSI design/layout tools?
22:02:44 <kmc> sounds insanely hardcore
22:02:53 <Bike> jesus
22:03:17 <Bike> why the hell is "Introduction to Computer Networks" (covering protocol layers, etc) in EE...
22:03:33 <Bike> oh it's crosslisted.
22:03:40 * Bike excited for school, sorry
22:03:44 <kmc> i was wondering the other day if say Intel uses standard tools to design their processors
22:03:44 <fizzie> Bike: Because there are ELECTRONS in the COPPER.
22:04:01 <kmc> or if they have their own in-house stuff that's more capable than anything on the market
22:04:03 <Bike> "really, why isn't everything in the physics department"
22:04:26 <Bike> oh, the other thing about the gorge is that there are a ton of wind turbines
22:04:26 <fizzie> Except real maths, presumably.
22:04:26 <kmc> we had a lot of CS/EE and CS/Ma cross listing
22:04:44 <Bike> i don't know what they're powering, because nobody lives out there, but whatever
22:04:50 <kmc> and some CS/Ph and maybe CS/APh (physics, applied physics)
22:05:09 <kmc> i'm amused that Ph 125 was quantum and Ch 125 was quantum for chemists and Pl 125 was philosophy of quantum
22:05:16 <Bike> lol
22:05:25 <Bike> relativistic quantum chemistry is p. terrifying
22:05:40 <fizzie> There were quite a few wind turbines up in the Alps in Switzerland. (I guess it's windy?)
22:05:40 <Bike> starting with the name
22:05:44 <kmc> also somebody pointed out that quantum field theory and general relativity classes were scheduled at the same time
22:05:47 <kmc> so they conflicted
22:05:48 <Fiora> relativistic quantum chemistry is amazing
22:05:56 <Phantom_Hoover> it's p. great
22:06:03 <Bike> i'm glad quantum effects aren't really relevant to neuro because god
22:06:15 <Fiora> like "gold is shiny and yellow because of contraction caused by relativistic electron motion" askdjfls
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22:06:55 <kmc> the GR textbook is a massive (heh) black book that says "GRAVITATION" on the cover
22:07:04 <kmc> http://www.amazon.com/Gravitation-Physics-Series-Charles-Misner/dp/0716703440
22:07:17 <kmc> whereas the advanced number theory text is a slim yellow volume titled "Introduction to Arithmetic"
22:07:40 <Bike> physicists have the best PR
22:08:26 <Phantom_Hoover> i still haven't visited my university library and every time i remember that it troubles me
22:08:36 <Bike> why would you not
22:08:41 <Bike> those things are the best
22:08:45 <shachaf> ==Bike
22:08:50 <Phantom_Hoover> i've... not needed any books i guess
22:09:08 <kmc> i tended to buy the textbooks that looked cool rather than the ones for the courses i was taking
22:09:12 <Fiora> Bike is like the master of devouring university libraries
22:09:14 <Fiora> he's pretty amazing
22:09:45 <Bike> needed??
22:10:00 <Bike> i literally bought a book by kolmogorov, during orientation, on a subject i'll never use in my life
22:10:13 <Bike> (because "wow, kolmogorov". i'm shallow)
22:10:30 <Bike> "Explore applications, including pulsars and neutron stars, cosmology, the Schwarzschild geometry and gravitational collapse, and gravitational waves" yeah those are good applications
22:10:43 <kmc> Build Your Own Neutron Star In 21 Days
22:11:04 <kmc> collapse the false vaccum in your spare time using household materials
22:11:22 <Bike> learn how to overcome the schwarzchild limit with this one weird old trick
22:11:22 <Fiora> Discover the Astounding Properties of Nuclear Matter!
22:11:27 <Fiora> ..... XD
22:11:42 <kmc> haha
22:11:44 <Fiora> ... oh gosh that reminds me of this thing
22:11:44 <Fiora> http://www.oneweirdkerneltrick.com/
22:11:51 <kmc> yeah that's the best
22:11:59 <kmc> it was made by some people the csloungers know
22:12:01 <kmc> for SIGBOVIK
22:12:27 <kmc> "The possibility that we are living in a false vacuum has never been a cheering one to contemplate. Vacuum decay is the ultimate ecological catastrophe; in the new vacuum there are new constants of nature; after vacuum decay, not only is life as we know it impossible, so is chemistry as we know it.
22:12:32 <kmc> However, one could always draw stoic comfort from the possibility that perhaps in the course of time the new vacuum would sustain, if not life as we know it, at least some structures capable of knowing joy. This possibility has now been eliminated."
22:12:49 <Bike> snort
22:12:54 <Bike> i read a sci-fi novel about that once
22:12:56 <Fiora> "What is Kim's secret to keeping off the pounds while pregnant?? The blogs say Kim eats corn one kernel at a time. But we're talking of another kind of weird kernel trick!! "
22:12:58 <Bike> guess it needs to be updated!
22:13:10 <Fiora> wasn't there like, some sci-fi novel where um... they were like, on a spaceship fleeing a vacuum collapse-esque thing?
22:13:19 <shachaf> Bike: which novel
22:13:21 <Bike> yeah, that's the one
22:13:24 <Bike> schild's ladder
22:13:29 <Taneb> Fiora, is it going to turn out that Kim stays slim while pregnant by contributing to Linux?
22:13:32 <Bike> by egan, so, weird
22:13:37 <Bike> wrong sense of "kernel" taneb
22:13:38 <Fiora> and another where the far future denizens of the heat death universe sent messeners back in time to cause a vacuum collapse to spawn new universes rather than forever inhabit a dead one
22:13:42 <Bike> good guess though!
22:14:01 <Fiora> (that's um... gah. what was it...)
22:14:22 <Bike> huh, optics for EE is 500-level...
22:14:35 <Bike> "524 Advanced Computer Architecture 3 Instruction set architectures, pipelining and super pipelining, instruction level parallelism, superscalar and VLIW processors, cache memory, thread-level parallelism and VLSI." seriously how is that EE
22:14:40 <kmc> what year are you Bike
22:14:46 <shachaf> oh the book i was thinking of was _Time_ by Stephen Baxter
22:14:49 <Fiora> it's not Darwin's Radio...
22:14:51 <Bike> junior by credits
22:14:52 <Fiora> Oh! That might have been it
22:14:54 <shachaf> Such an event would be one possible doomsday event. It was used as a plot device in a science-fiction story in 1988 by Geoffrey A. Landis,[16] in 2000 by Stephen Baxter,[17] and in 2002 by Greg Egan.[18]
22:14:58 <Bike> i mean i'll never be taking these things, but still
22:15:02 <Bike> fun to look at
22:15:08 <Taneb> I once read a sci fi book where they had a space ship powered by American "chedder" that someone had put in a particle accelerator for a laugh
22:15:12 <Fiora> Manifold: Time?
22:15:22 <shachaf> I remember that book!
22:15:24 <Taneb> Except the space ship was just a Boeing 747
22:15:35 <shachaf> I think I read _Time_ and _Space_.
22:16:07 <Fiora> the Xeelee books were really cool
22:16:09 <Bike> the coolest class i could probably take is biomechanics: "Methods for analysis of rigid body and deformable mechanics; application to biological tissue, especially bone, cartilage, ligaments, tendon and muscle. "
22:16:13 <Fiora> especially the civilization on a neutral star one *_*
22:16:16 <Fiora> *neutron star
22:16:17 <Bike> for the Unreal Tournament factor
22:16:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, didn't dragon's egg already do that
22:16:34 <shachaf> I don't think I read anything else by him.
22:16:36 <shachaf> Should I?
22:17:11 <Fiora> ummm... I don't know
22:17:12 <Bike> it's ok if there's more than one book about neutron star civilizations, imo
22:17:35 <Fiora> shachaf: it tends to be like... totally crazy idea-filled books that are heavy on the silly sci-fi speculation and kind of light on the characters and stuff
22:17:45 <Fiora> so um, if you like that kind of thing it can be fun
22:17:48 <shachaf> Fiora: Sounds right.
22:17:48 <Bike> hard sci-fi as it were
22:17:50 <Fiora> Vacuum Diagrams was really cool though
22:18:00 <Bike> do i get ostracized for liking soft sci-fi more
22:18:01 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, no read banks you fuck
22:18:02 <shachaf> i love sci-fi
22:18:05 <shachaf> it is so easy
22:18:06 <Fiora> I loved the short stories in that one, I think his ideas kind of work better as short stories than longer ones
22:18:22 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: huh? who's banks......
22:18:24 <Fiora> my favorite ever was one the one where members of the resistance end up being caught by the Qax and are fleeing the solar system on a starship
22:18:28 <Fiora> but a missile ends up going after them
22:18:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, tell shachaf to read banks, leverage democracy
22:18:36 <Fiora> and the missile reconfigures itself over time to accelerate faster and faster
22:18:44 <Taneb> Bike, my sci-fi is softer than your sci-fi
22:18:55 <Fiora> and so they have to make more and more sacrifices, eventually brain-uploading when the missile accelerates to like 1000Gs
22:18:56 <Bike> oh yeah well my sci-fi is so soft it's actually victorian romance!!!
22:19:14 <Fiora> and they finally deal with the missile by passing by a rotating black hole, stealing energy from it in the process, catching the missile in the ergosphere
22:19:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, *jolts to like 1000gs
22:19:23 <Fiora> .... only to find they're now going so fast they can't ever slow down
22:19:25 <Taneb> Well, mine's a cold war era spy novel!
22:19:33 <Bike> oh, laundry?
22:19:33 <Fiora> and it's been 10 million years in an unmoving reference frames
22:19:34 <kmc> the hardest sci-fi is arxiv papers
22:19:34 <Fiora> *frame
22:19:40 <Bike> lol.
22:19:41 <kmc> there's a paper on arxiv about how to build a self-replicating intergalactic exploration probe
22:19:43 <shachaf> kmc++
22:20:00 <kmc> another paper about what to do to save earth when the sun blows up in 5 billion years or so
22:20:08 <kmc> it does require a fair amount of advance planning
22:20:09 <Fiora> kmc: gosh that "neutron stars might actually be GUT-powered proton combustion chambers" was the best thing
22:20:14 <kmc> Fiora: what
22:20:15 <Bike> wat
22:20:21 <Fiora> http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2009arXiv0912.0520D
22:20:22 <Taneb> wt
22:20:24 <Fiora> electroweak stars
22:20:30 <kmc> here's the "how to save the earth" paper http://arxiv.org/abs/0811.4052
22:20:35 <Fiora> like really that paper is so cool
22:20:42 <Taneb> Anyway, Space scares me. Msg me when you have it sorted out
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22:20:52 <Bike> K
22:21:02 <Fiora> basically its that at the core of a neutron star density could get so high it'd be like, 2 earths in the volume of an apple
22:21:12 <Fiora> and the energy'd be so high that it'd hit electroweak unification levels
22:21:19 <Bike> "The source of energy in the core that can at least temporarily balance gravity are standard-model non-perturbative baryon number (B) and lepton number (L) violating processes that allow the chemical potential of B+L to relax to zero" help
22:21:20 <Fiora> and that'd allow proton burning
22:21:31 <Bike> kmc: "gigayears"
22:21:39 <kmc> proton burning...
22:21:43 <Taneb> Saying that, being in the front of fast cars scares me
22:21:44 <kmc> what do you get when you burn a proton
22:21:45 <Fiora> which would provide a completely insane amount of energy
22:21:51 <Taneb> I'm easily scared
22:21:52 <Fiora> annihilation basically I think?
22:21:52 <Bike> ArtSun, omg
22:21:56 <Fiora> so like, conversion to pure energy
22:22:01 <kmc> oh
22:22:04 <Bike> this really is sci-fi, nothing but sci-fi has such shitty names
22:22:04 <Taneb> kmc, an oxidated proton, of course
22:22:16 <Fiora> neutrinos + gamma rays or I guess I don't remember what it generates >_<
22:22:40 <Fiora> but because it's at the dead center, the redshift is so huge and neutrino capture is so huge that like, most of the energy won't really escape
22:22:59 <Bike> hm, what department's classes should i check next...
22:23:16 <Taneb> Hmm
22:23:27 <Fiora> then there was like the um. oh right. the one about how if antiparticles repel matter (unlikely but not ruled out), black holes should serve as massive antineutrino guns
22:23:28 <shachaf> Fiora: should i read banks y/n
22:23:31 <kmc> i like the part where they propose to adjust the earth's orbit by flinging asteroids past us repeatedly
22:23:32 <Bike> "Gods, Spirits, Witchcraft and Possession" is a good course title
22:23:33 <Taneb> I'm gonna go on a ramble to highlight how much I suck at physics
22:23:39 <Fiora> banks is super cool! I started with Look to Windward
22:23:39 <Bike> ready, taneb
22:23:46 <Bike> Fiora: that is just the weirdest idea, the antigravity thing
22:23:50 <kmc> "Although the `swing-by'- idea is an elegant method it will have some inherent problems which must be mentioned, for instance, such as the problem of a collision of the `swing-by' asteroid with Earth."
22:23:54 <Taneb> Well, burning is sort of adding oxygen
22:24:04 <Taneb> So, if you burn a proton, you add oxygen
22:24:06 <Bike> kmc: gonna need to remember that next time i see "elegant" in programming.
22:24:11 <Fiora> I think burning here is a metahpor... xD
22:24:18 <kmc> one problem with these million near schemes is that civilization will probably collapse in the meantime
22:24:18 <Taneb> Which would get you Fluorine
22:24:22 <kmc> million year*
22:24:30 <Bike> kmc: see, that's why we need soft sci-fi!!
22:24:35 <Taneb> The most common isotope of Oxygen has 16 neutrons
22:24:39 <Fiora> soft scifi is cool too! I like soft scifi
22:24:40 <Taneb> F-16 is unstable
22:24:57 <Bike> civilizational changes in the long term are often sadly neglected
22:25:03 <shachaf> what about victorian romance
22:25:10 <Bike> vinge was ok at it, weirdly
22:25:23 <Taneb> it decays into O-15
22:25:25 <Bike> in the future we don't have programmers, everything has software already so we just have archaelogists reverse engineering everything
22:25:32 <kmc> ;_;
22:25:40 <shachaf> hey y'all should i read _The Mote in God's Eye_ y/n
22:25:41 <kmc> that is pretty close to true already
22:25:45 <Bike> yeah
22:25:58 <Taneb> Now, O-15 is also unstable, and it decays into N-15
22:26:00 <Fiora> yeeeesss the motie books are fun
22:26:11 <shachaf> y/n
22:26:12 <Taneb> N-15 is stable
22:26:13 <Bike> but that's the sort of thing i wonder about
22:26:26 <Bike> since in terms of millions of years, i mean, humans have only had civilization for a few thousand
22:26:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:26:48 <Bike> who knows what happens next. maybe disco could come back into fashion. anything's possible
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22:27:02 <Taneb> So, burning protons gives you Nitrogen
22:27:12 <Taneb> And a proton
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22:27:20 <Bike> " folk concepts of sexual anatomy in traditional cultures in Western science" ooh la la
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22:27:54 <Fiora> kmc: but like yeah if I didn't actually post it here before
22:27:58 <Fiora> the electroweak star thing is cooool
22:28:00 <Taneb> Okay, how much did I suck at physics
22:28:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, i thought you were good at physics
22:28:35 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I'm better at physics than I am at, eg, Chemistry
22:28:46 -!- sacje has joined.
22:29:07 <Taneb> But when I have a physics problem I have a list of people to defer it to
22:29:15 <Taneb> I think you are pretty high up on the list
22:30:32 <Taneb> Anyway, I am off to bed now
22:30:34 <Taneb> Goodnight!
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22:30:55 <kmc> nathan van doom
22:31:08 <Bike> i wonder if western civilization will collapse and wikipedia will be like Natural History. or maybe it won't collapse, it'll just change gradually into something very different
22:31:18 <Bike> i guess that's what "collapse" is anyway
22:31:29 <kmc> we'll upload our brains into a 24/7 cyber orgy
22:31:40 <kmc> which will last until the power runs out or the computers break for some dumb reason
22:31:45 <Phantom_Hoover> hmm
22:31:46 <kmc> then that will be the end of humankind
22:31:52 <Bike> been readin too much sci-fi
22:31:56 <Phantom_Hoover> on the one hand, system shock 2 is only 5 and i am bored
22:32:04 <kmc> have you not played it?
22:32:12 <Bike> though that reminds me i should read uh
22:32:14 <Phantom_Hoover> on the other hand, i don't think i have the nervous fortitude to play system shock 2
22:32:15 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: imo read non-banks
22:32:32 <Bike> that one neuroscientist who proposed wireheading and mind control for society
22:33:27 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: you could read, uh, the short stories book kmc was reading
22:33:31 <shachaf> kmc: did you finish it
22:33:37 <kmc> not yet
22:34:06 <Bike> "Anthropology of Epidemic Disease and Bioterrorism" now that sounds fun
22:34:15 <Bike> maybe i could go sit in...
22:34:53 <Bike> "Anthropology of Life and Death" is one for the album names list
22:36:23 <shachaf> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1949537745/armikrog
22:36:28 <shachaf> last chance for the $20 thing
22:37:19 <shachaf> assuming it gets funded........
22:37:45 <Phantom_Hoover> the $5 reward is... a desktop image
22:40:04 <shachaf> kmc: there are actually several algorithms for it, but obviously people don't just blab about it
22:40:15 <shachaf> oh wait, i'm thinking of the discreet logarithm problem
22:40:15 <Phantom_Hoover> for what
22:40:24 <Phantom_Hoover> oh
22:40:35 <Bike> the discreet logarithm problem sounds fun
22:40:45 <Bike> go out to a strip club, do some logs on the fly
22:41:00 <shachaf> Bike: What's discreet, the logarithm or the problem?
22:41:12 <Bike> i don't know you said it
22:41:36 <shachaf> yes so you get to turn it from nonsense into something meaningful
22:41:49 <kmc> this is re https://twitter.com/pbarreto/status/347115211259514880 new algorithm for discrete logarithm problem
22:41:58 <Phantom_Hoover> huh
22:42:02 <Bike> oh nice.
22:42:02 <shachaf> you lucky human-powered, pedal-driven, single-track vehicle, you
22:42:20 <Bike> ok well the logarithms being discreet is too obvious since that's like the whole point of crypto anyway
22:42:23 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how you never hear about discrete logarithm-based cryptography because it's so much harder to describe than primes
22:42:25 <Bike> so i guess it must be the problem itself
22:42:46 <Fiora> Isn't diffie-hellman discrete log?
22:42:51 <Phantom_Hoover> yes
22:42:59 <kmc> DH is so easy to describe
22:43:04 <Phantom_Hoover> sorry, i mean in like popular cryptographic texts
22:43:04 <Fiora> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Diffie-Hellman_Key_Exchange.svg I always found that bit easier to understand thatn like, RSA <.<
22:43:09 <Phantom_Hoover> by which i mean the code book
22:43:09 <Fiora> *than like
22:43:26 <Fiora> does this mean DH is broken? @_@
22:43:42 <Bike> wait, the ffrench for "abstract" is "resumé"?
22:43:50 <Bike> blowing my mind here
22:43:56 <kmc> doesn't it mean like "summary"
22:44:01 <Phantom_Hoover> are you using stupid irc encoding Bike
22:44:04 <Bike> yeah now that i think about it it must
22:44:08 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: um i don't think so
22:44:11 <Phantom_Hoover> is this what it's been for everyone else when i said unicode characters
22:44:13 <Phantom_Hoover> er
22:44:19 <shachaf> ŕéśúḿé
22:44:21 <Phantom_Hoover> you know what i mean
22:44:22 <kmc> and "curriculum vitae" means like "life curriculum"? guessing
22:44:25 <shachaf> h́t́h́
22:44:41 <Bike> kmc: probably "curriculum" means something else
22:44:48 <Phantom_Hoover> 'curriculum' is something to do with deeds
22:44:55 <Bike> Fiora: only for small characteristic fields, and i don't know if DH does that
22:44:55 <Phantom_Hoover> so i guess it's your life's deeds?
22:45:14 <Fiora> so like, their complexity argument fails for larger fields (?)
22:45:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora that diagram is so confusing
22:45:39 -!- mnoqy has joined.
22:45:51 <Bike> Fiora: i think it's exponentially slower the higher the characteristic
22:46:12 <Phantom_Hoover> oh wait it makes sense now
22:46:22 <shachaf> `WeLcOmE mnoqy
22:46:25 <HackEgo> MnOqY: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
22:46:33 <mnoqy> hi
22:46:39 <shachaf> no i asked for WeLcOmE not for wElCoMe
22:46:44 <shachaf> get it right HackEgo...........
22:47:07 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: it's basically like. alice and bob agree on a paint. they each add their secret colors to the paint, and trade the mixtures. then they add their secret color to the mixture they just got. now they both have the same paint again
22:47:20 <Phantom_Hoover> i know, i read the article
22:47:23 <Bike> the weird thing is, it's possible to unmix paint.
22:47:25 <Phantom_Hoover> words are underrated
22:47:25 <Bike> imo fucked up
22:47:26 <kmc> this is one of those analogies that works as long as you forget everything you know about paint
22:47:32 <Fiora> XD
22:47:43 <shachaf> paint, more like pain't
22:47:47 <kmc> Bike: chromatography for the win
22:47:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, how do you unmix paint
22:48:00 <olsner> mix it backwards duh
22:48:02 <Phantom_Hoover> oh, chromatography (but that's not really unmixing!)
22:48:28 <Bike> no, it's not chromatography
22:48:29 <kmc> i remember chromatographying some inks and paints as a kid
22:48:33 <Bike> olsner's actually got it, let me find a video
22:48:34 <kmc> with just like some paper
22:49:17 <Fiora> is that the thing you do with um... like, water climbing up the strips or whatever?
22:49:26 <olsner> Bike: if it's the video I'm thinking of, that's not paint they're mixing (and they don't mix it like paint is mixed either)
22:49:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, yes but s/water/solvent/
22:49:56 * Bike greps logs. "Mexican people don't eat sugar, especially when it's a mixture of lice and tiger DNA"
22:50:17 <Phantom_Hoover> it started off racist and then went weird
22:50:27 <olsner> fungot: do you eat lice and tiger DNA?
22:50:27 <fungot> olsner: oh good, i'm quite sure that's what you get when you fnord...
22:50:45 <Bike> yeah, it is.
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22:52:00 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Whom_God_Should_Not_Have_Created:_Persians,_Jews,_and_Flies came up in the same log
22:52:26 <Bike> Aha, found the video!
22:52:27 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3YZ5veN_Bg
22:52:40 <Phantom_Hoover> "steve spangler science"
22:52:47 <Phantom_Hoover> this is almost... informercially
22:53:22 <Bike> but they're only selling science (probably, i don't watch this show)
22:54:23 <Phantom_Hoover> agree with olsner also
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22:59:29 <olsner> if they say it's "never been done on tv" you can be pretty sure it's stupid
22:59:39 <Bike> it's legit
23:00:02 <Phantom_Hoover> it's legit in a seedy way
23:00:15 <Phantom_Hoover> meanwhile: i attempt to find an IPA for 'vajradhara', fail miserably
23:01:25 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:01:43 <olsner> perhaps it's considered too obvious
23:03:31 <Phantom_Hoover> the problem with ipa'ing is the vowel sounds
23:03:45 <Phantom_Hoover> you know where you are with consonants but the vowels are so fiddly
23:03:51 <Phantom_Hoover> and really, who even gives a shit about them
23:04:14 <Bike> fuckers with their alphabets
23:04:16 <Bike> abjads for all
23:04:24 <kmc> abadabadoo
23:07:49 <Bike> i think half the things i use my email for is password resets. i'm the least secure person ever
23:08:12 <kmc> the true single sign-on solution
23:08:49 <Bike> that's pretty much how i use it ;_;
23:10:32 <Phantom_Hoover> i do that but also i use the same three passwords for everything
23:10:37 <Phantom_Hoover> double insecurity
23:11:31 <kmc> three > one
23:12:18 <Bike> i think i'd probably be better off if my passwords could all be quotes from books or something
23:12:23 <Bike> easier to remember than muscle memory
23:14:37 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah it kind of seems like that'd be more convenient and about as secure as littering numbers around the place
23:15:37 <Bike> it seems more likely that people will lose passwords to phishing than dictionary attacks anyway
23:16:30 <Bike> whatever, i'm not a security guy, can i just hire an intern to remember things for me
23:20:27 <Phantom_Hoover> huh
23:20:41 <Phantom_Hoover> i still have the three whom god etc. article open in a tab
23:21:09 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how they bother making distinct racial charictures
23:21:29 <Bike> so, other question, why are they called "discrete logarithm" and "modular exponentiation"
23:21:40 <Bike> instead of both calling them modular (or both discrete, i guess)
23:22:39 <Phantom_Hoover> i note that regular logs still work in modular arithmetic
23:23:26 <Bike> er, they do?
23:23:34 <Phantom_Hoover> sure
23:23:46 <Bike> do you mean thea algorithms or
23:23:49 <Phantom_Hoover> with appropriate extensions to everything
23:24:02 -!- itsy has left.
23:24:58 <Bike> oh man school has an intro to xenobiology, though they don't call it that
23:25:21 <Bike> er, was it called "xenobiology" or "astrobiology", i forget
23:34:10 <oklopol> you can study astrobiology in turku
23:34:17 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: i'm confused by what you mean though, like, modular exponentiation and exponentiation admit the same algorithms
23:35:16 <oklopol> http://www.nordicastrobiology.net/Turku.shtml
23:35:36 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean normal log for normal bases
23:36:01 <Phantom_Hoover> oh forget it it was a confused point to begin with
23:36:09 <Bike> ok, sorry
23:38:36 <oklopol> Bike: maybe it is because modular exponentiation is just exponentiation modulo p, while discrete logarithm has nothing (presumably) to do with the logarithm of the corresponding real number
23:39:05 <oklopol> but i agree with you, the terms should mirror each other
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23:45:02 <Sgeo> http://vanilla-js.com/
23:47:54 -!- sebbu has joined.
23:48:25 -!- Bike has joined.
23:48:38 <ion> heh
23:49:37 <Phantom_Hoover> huh, gunpoint made some large amount of money
23:49:42 <Phantom_Hoover> that's pretty cool
23:50:30 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/duplicates/1gkw2j/vanilla_js_is_a_fast_lightweight_crossplatform/
23:50:33 <shachaf> you know what else is p. cool?
23:50:40 <shachaf> `smlist 405
23:50:42 <HackEgo> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
23:51:12 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/:/${@:+ }$@:/' bin/smlist
23:51:16 <HackEgo> No output.
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23:58:13 <kmc> programmer. humor.
23:58:23 <kmc> how often do they have an argument about whether it should be ProgrammerHumour instead
23:58:52 <kmc> ProgrammeurHumeraux
23:59:21 <mnoqy> programmer humer....sounds bad
23:59:47 <Bike> i hope Programmer Humour is about the humour theory of personality
23:59:56 <mnoqy> me too
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