←2013-06-18 2013-06-19 2013-06-20→ ↑2013 ↑all
00:00:12 <Bike> it's like MBTI except basically t he same as MBTI
00:00:18 <Sgeo> http://www.dejavu.org/1995win.htm
00:01:21 <Fiora> but I like being an INFP
00:01:24 <Bike> Sgeo: that's the same theme as adequacy.org. makes u think
00:01:34 <Bike> Fiora: well i like being melancholic!!!!!
00:01:49 <shachaf> myers.briggs--
00:01:50 <Fiora> are you trying to be
00:01:55 <Fiora> humorous
00:02:07 <Bike> help
00:02:18 <Fiora> :3
00:03:05 <shachaf>
00:03:08 <shachaf> help
00:03:12 <shachaf> what does ":3" even mean
00:03:22 * ion helps. hth
00:03:34 <kmc> in my mind it's like a cute innocent "what did i do" cat face
00:03:38 <kmc> i might be using it wrong
00:03:49 <mnoqy> it's a lot of things
00:03:50 <Bike> that's how i see it
00:03:53 <Bike> thx fiora
00:04:06 <kmc> Thanks, Fiora. Theora.
00:04:13 <Bike> `thanks fiora
00:04:15 <HackEgo> Thanks, fiora. Thiora.
00:04:18 <Bike> oh theora is that codec
00:04:20 <kmc> yes
00:04:21 * Bike Gets the Joke
00:04:24 <shachaf> Ogg Fiora
00:04:27 <ion> Thanks, Fiora. H.264.
00:04:43 <shachaf> Nanny Ogg Fiora????
00:05:08 <Fiora> why is everyone saying thanks? @_@
00:05:18 <shachaf> Have you seen Look Around You?
00:05:19 <Fiora> kmc: no that's about right. I think
00:05:20 <kmc> because it's thanksgiving
00:05:24 <pikhq> Fiora: You need to see Look Around You.
00:05:25 <kmc> somewhere in the world
00:05:40 <shachaf> every day is thanksgiving in #esoteric
00:05:48 <Fiora> Bike: oh geez. that thanks thing just reminded me of this :/
00:05:49 <Fiora> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDajqW561KM
00:05:58 <pikhq> Thanks, giving. Thiving.
00:06:11 <shachaf> Fiora: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x68y4g_look-around-you-module-2-water_fun hth
00:06:21 <Fiora> I saw the calcium one
00:06:34 <Phantom_Hoover> the water one has the genesis of thanks in it
00:07:01 <shachaf> thenesis
00:07:14 <Bike> Fiora: congratulations?
00:07:30 <Fiora> nooooo I'm not shinji
00:07:39 <Phantom_Hoover> so is that why everyone hates evangelion then
00:07:52 <shachaf> ew is that dubbed in english
00:07:54 <mnoqy> Bike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KH2gc11XQU
00:07:56 <Bike> yeah, evangelion would be way improved by making Fiora the protagonist
00:08:30 <shachaf> lots of things would be improved by making Fiora the protagonist
00:08:42 <Bike> mnoqy: good, good
00:08:49 <shachaf> like Macbeth
00:09:04 <shachaf> mnoqy: did you see the super mega update btw,,,, there was a super mega update
00:09:09 <mnoqy> shachaf: yes i saw
00:09:19 <shachaf> did you see it before or after i `smlisted
00:09:27 <mnoqy> yes
00:09:39 <Fiora> I don't think I'd do a good job in a shakespearean tragedy <_>
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00:09:49 <kmc> shaxpear
00:10:19 <Bike> do you think someone's made a parody of shakespeare with shaquille o'neill
00:10:25 <shachaf> mnoqy: the QUESTION is if you saw it before i `smlisted why didn't you tell me...................
00:10:40 <shachaf> Fiora: well if you were the protagonist it wouldn't be a tragedy hth
00:11:22 <shachaf> wait am i mixing macbeth up with another play
00:11:40 <shachaf> help
00:11:40 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe
00:11:43 <Bike> how would we know
00:11:51 <Phantom_Hoover> also, hot potato pop is scotch, puck will make amends
00:11:53 <Bike> macbeth is the one where macbeth kills everyone and then dies
00:12:02 <kmc> spoiler alert
00:12:16 <mnoqy> i hear macbeth is the one with macbeth in it
00:12:23 <Phantom_Hoover> it's the one in scotland
00:12:23 <kmc> The One Where Macbeth Kills Everyone
00:12:24 <Fiora> "mafipulation"
00:12:24 <Bike> that's like 80% of his tragedies anyway let's be real
00:12:28 <shachaf> isn't macbeth in all of them
00:12:42 <Bike> i should read titus andronicus
00:12:49 <Bike> sinc it's gorier than a tarantino film apparently
00:13:22 <Phantom_Hoover> also i think macbeth was partly written as propaganda or something
00:13:25 <kmc> but do the characters stand around talking about fast food when they aren't murderkilling
00:13:42 <shachaf> the worst kind of killing
00:14:05 <Bike> kmc: well they have monologues
00:14:12 <kmc> also have you seen http://www.runleiarun.com/lebowski/
00:14:15 <Phantom_Hoover> they have puns
00:14:26 <shachaf> monologue and epilogue
00:14:32 <Bike> yeah. now if only shakespeare had a foot fetish
00:14:44 <Bike> kmc: awesome
00:15:01 <Fiora> shachaf: I've actually played um. about two games where the protagonist is vaguely fiora-like? or at least kind of felt that way
00:15:06 <Phantom_Hoover> i came so close to googling shakespeare fetish
00:15:14 <Phantom_Hoover> didn't he have a thing for older women though
00:15:29 <shachaf> Fiora: Or maybe you became those-games'-protagonists-like
00:15:39 <Bike> seems likely.
00:15:39 <Phantom_Hoover> fioroid
00:15:53 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: i know jack shit about shakespeare's performance. someone call an english major
00:16:08 <shachaf> Fiora: anyway lots of games are all about identifying with the protagonists and wish fulfillment and "all that jazz"
00:16:20 <Phantom_Hoover> what would an english major be doing on freenode
00:16:35 <Fiora> well, they were games with like, well-defined characters
00:16:36 <Bike> being driven out by horrible nerds, imo
00:16:38 <Fiora> as opposed to blankslateish ones
00:16:40 <Bike> Fiora: so what were the games
00:16:47 <Phantom_Hoover> were they
00:16:49 <Fiora> Bike: atelier ayesha and atelier totori, surppriiiseee
00:16:49 <Phantom_Hoover> japanese
00:17:05 <Bike> shocking
00:17:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, why are they both named after the french for workshop
00:17:14 <Fiora> I only spent like literally weeks fangirling or something
00:17:24 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: they're about alchemists.
00:17:27 <Fiora> atelier is a series where you play as an alchemist
00:17:29 <Bike> also "atelier" is used in english sometimes!!!
00:17:53 <shachaf> i could identify really identify with pac-man
00:18:00 <shachaf> a lot of character depth there imo hth
00:18:17 <Bike> the only characcters i identify with are terrible people
00:18:18 <shachaf> s/identify //
00:18:22 <Bike> maybe is hould play games with princesses
00:18:33 <Fiora> play atelier meruru! the protagonist is a princess
00:18:43 <mnoqy> truly pacman is representative of the human condition
00:19:01 <Phantom_Hoover> i never know if i'm identifying with characters or broad stereotypes
00:19:02 <kmc> "If Pac-Man had affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive electronic music."
00:19:08 <Phantom_Hoover> the traumatic personal influence of sheldon
00:19:35 <Fiora> I might be clinging to "characters who are vaguely similar" since I have so few options anyways :/
00:19:39 <Bike> oh! at orientation i saw a guy with a "Bazinga!" t-shirt.
00:19:40 <Bike> fyi
00:19:47 <kmc> also do you know the reason it was renamed from "Puck-Man" for US release was because they realized every machine would immediately be vandalized to say "Fuck-Man"
00:20:03 <Bike> oh, was he named after pück
00:21:02 <kmc> "If [[Pac-Man]] had affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in [[rave|dark rooms]], munching [[MDMA|pills]] and listening to [[Electronic dance music|repetitive electronic music]]."
00:21:14 <kmc> i enjoy Wikipedia's "explain the joke" role
00:21:36 <Phantom_Hoover> bless you wikipedia
00:21:42 <Fiora> |{protagonists who are girls}| is small, |{protagonists who are girls}∩{protagonists who are quieter, shy, and/or less assertive}| is smaller
00:21:48 <kmc> blikipedia
00:22:06 <Bike> good use of set notation.
00:22:12 <Fiora> I am such a dork :/
00:22:23 <Bike> and yeah i was gonna say (re: "were they japanese") that you're not exactly Faith (nb. have not played mirror's edge)
00:22:45 <Fiora> I should totally play mirror's edge though
00:22:52 <Fiora> I actually like have it on steam from a summer sale for like a dollar or three
00:22:54 <Fiora> and I still haven't played it
00:22:59 <Bike> heh
00:23:02 <Phantom_Hoover> it's apparently `not that good' but it might be fun
00:23:03 <Fiora> but Radiant Historia is fun
00:23:18 <Phantom_Hoover> i do want to try the idea though, i love running around games
00:23:36 <Bike> i've never heard anything bad about mirror's edge really :/
00:23:41 <Fiora> I think opinion on it is kind of split? I've heard a lot of people kind of loved it
00:24:30 <Fiora> while others were like oh no it's not about shooting people!!! and you have to be a ~girl~ and they have cooties gosh no
00:24:30 <Phantom_Hoover> i might have moved in different circles of criticism
00:24:42 <Bike> yeah maybe
00:24:42 <kmc> i hadn't read the version of Two Gentlemen of Lebowski that has footnotes explaining the "shakespearean" language
00:24:44 <Fiora> okay maybe I am being a bit too unfair <.<
00:24:45 <kmc> most excellent
00:24:49 <kmc> i played Mirror's Edge
00:24:50 <Bike> kmc: awesome
00:24:59 <kmc> it's worth a dollar or three for sure
00:25:03 <Phantom_Hoover> the errant signal guy was pretty critical of the crowbarred shooting and i read this complete evisceration of the plot once
00:25:19 <kmc> i didn't finish it but i had some fun
00:25:19 <Bike> isn't the plot like, shiny 1984
00:25:22 <kmc> it can cause motion sickness
00:25:26 <Phantom_Hoover> hopefully for 2 they'll be given more creative control
00:25:40 <kmc> yeah it's set in some kind of ultra-clean dystopian police state
00:25:44 <kmc> like singapore lololol
00:25:51 <Bike> if mirror's edge 2 is more about the arab spring mode of protest that would be kinda cool
00:25:54 <Bike> ~topical~
00:26:54 <Phantom_Hoover> i understand that it's not very obviously dystopian though
00:27:03 <Phantom_Hoover> this was one of the things the guy did not like
00:27:16 <Bike> isn't that like, the point of an ultra clean police state
00:27:37 <Fiora> if a flimsy plot doomed a game to be "eviscerated" I would expect like, every reviewer ever to eviscerate call of duty or something
00:27:38 <kmc> i think by chapter 2 or 3 the politicians are framing your friend for murder
00:27:38 <Phantom_Hoover> what
00:27:47 <Phantom_Hoover> what if i just linked to the thing
00:27:52 <kmc> i don't remember exactly but uh, it seemed pretty obviously dystopian to me
00:28:07 <kmc> the whole conceit is that these badass parkour couriers exist because electronic communications are all tapped
00:28:10 <kmc> i thought
00:28:11 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.chocolatehammer.org/?p=750 <- "the thing"
00:28:15 <kmc> whatever, buy it, play it, don't puke
00:28:28 <kmc> but it's vastly more important that Phantom_Hoover buy System Shock 2
00:28:29 <Fiora> (this is kind of why I don't like game reviewers much, I kind of feel like they come up with an opinion of a game, and then create lots of justifications for why they didn't like it or liked it, after the fact)
00:28:34 <Bike> Fiora: call of duty's plot is hilarious though
00:28:40 <kmc> Fiora: yep! i feel that way about most reviews of things actually
00:28:45 <Bike> it's so much deeper than "russia invades so we can reenact the cold war"
00:28:53 <Fiora> it's the whole "~rationality~" thing of like
00:28:53 <Bike> and by deeper i mean lol
00:28:59 <kmc> Fiora: like every review of Season 4 of Community has to talk at length about how the show is Not The Same after Dan Harmon left
00:28:59 <Phantom_Hoover> it's not really a review but w/e
00:29:03 <Fiora> I am rational, so I use rationality and logic to justify my arbitrary personal feelings
00:29:03 <kmc> and it isn't
00:29:16 <kmc> but also it seems like they were going to say that no matter what
00:29:20 <Bike> "Did that seem confusing or vague? It did?" er not really
00:29:28 <Phantom_Hoover> reading good reviews of things you like is great though!
00:29:41 <Bike> "And come to think of it, does the government really have such a tight grip on everything that rebels can only communicate by snail mail transported by Cirque du Soleil? I mean, I’m no tech expert, but I’m pretty sure there’s some type of electronic communication that can’t be easily intercepted." i um
00:29:46 <Bike> ummmmmm
00:29:49 <Fiora> XD
00:29:54 <Phantom_Hoover> i assume he means crypto
00:29:56 <Fiora> Bike: I still like. gosh, the parody xbox one presentation by that australian dude
00:30:26 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: man you live in a country where the police can arrest you for not giving up your keys :/
00:30:29 <Bike> Fiora: the what?
00:30:40 <kmc> Bike: i assume they can do that in most countries, with a valid subpoena
00:30:43 <Fiora> Bike: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KOxdMQhDMIU#t=2m45s
00:30:47 <Fiora> (just that 5 seconds)
00:30:56 <kmc> also HOLA NSA
00:31:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, that guy
00:31:13 <mnoqy> hola kmc
00:31:14 <Phantom_Hoover> isn't english
00:31:28 <Bike> she said australian!
00:31:29 <kmc> i was reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_political_jokes yesterday
00:31:36 <kmc> there are some really fucking funny ones
00:31:38 <Phantom_Hoover> fuck
00:31:39 <Fiora> my headcanon is that this is actually how everyone in the world sees american shooter game type things
00:31:41 <Phantom_Hoover> he's not australian
00:31:45 <Bike> oh
00:31:58 <kmc> headcannon
00:32:07 <Fiora> oh. he's not? darnit <.<
00:32:25 <Bike> kmc: i meant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_Investigatory_Powers_Act_2000
00:32:29 <Phantom_Hoover> i'd almost forgotten about the english/australian confusion
00:32:31 <Bike> i don't think they need warrants for a lot of it
00:32:52 <Bike> but i don't live in the UK or know about it really.
00:32:56 <Bike> also: russian jokes own.
00:33:19 <Phantom_Hoover> also recently i realised i can tell between australian and new zealand accents
00:33:21 <Phantom_Hoover> that was good
00:33:32 <Bike> Fiora: oh lol that.
00:33:34 <kmc> me too although i don't know if i can tell 'real' ones or just stereotyped ones
00:33:35 <Bike> dogs
00:33:45 <Fiora> "america's in trouble! and... guns."
00:33:47 <Phantom_Hoover> dogues
00:34:03 <kmc> also I learned today that "to squizz" is .au english for "to look at / read / examine"
00:34:11 <kmc> sounds like something much more gross to me
00:34:38 <mnoqy> how do those australians do it
00:34:42 <Bike> «The principle of socialist economy of the period of transition to communism: the authorities pretend they are paying wages, workers pretend they are working. Alternately, "So long as the bosses pretend to pay us, we will pretend to work." This joke persisted essentially unchanged through the 1980s.» ok well that's depressing
00:34:43 <kmc> upside down
00:35:00 <kmc> communism: zero failure modes
00:35:36 <Bike> "No my friend, we will not live long enough to see communism, but our children... poor children"
00:35:58 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: how do I tell the difference between english and australian accents ._. and what about the english in australia and australians and england and agh
00:36:10 <Bike> omg this one
00:36:12 <mnoqy> "Communism was a humour-producing machine. Its economic theories and system of repression created inherently funny situations. There were jokes under fascism and the Nazis too, but those systems did not create an absurd, laugh-a-minute reality like communism."
00:36:21 <Bike> Three men sit in a jail in (KGB headquarters) Dzerzhinsky Square. The first asks the second why he has been imprisoned, and he says, "Because I criticized Karl Radek." The first man responds, "But I am here because I spoke out in favor of Radek!" They turn to the third man who has been sitting quietly in the back, and ask him why he is in jail too. He responds, "I'm Karl Radek."
00:36:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, 'they sound different' i guess? i dunno
00:37:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alternate between british comedies and something australian i guess
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00:38:26 <Fiora> Bike: http://danbooru.donmai.us/data/sample/sample-3d41a11efe619c8899f6594ce6ab2242.jpg ooooh so that's the one this was referencing. I get it now
00:38:38 <Bike> this just reminds me that i know people who say 30s USSR was fantastic, blergh
00:38:49 <Bike> Fiora: lol
00:39:05 <Bike> Fiora: wasn't that a parody of maoist PRC?
00:39:25 <Fiora> it was a two-part comic, the first part was the soviet union
00:39:30 <Fiora> the second part was maoist PRC
00:39:31 <Bike> oh, good
00:39:48 <Bike> oh 1953 was stalin's death
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00:40:52 <Phantom_Hoover> unfortunately i have now lost my familiarity with scottish accents
00:41:29 <Bike> aren't you scottish
00:42:10 <Phantom_Hoover> yes but i go to university in england
00:42:11 <Bike> unrelatedly i'm watching a boardsofcanada promotional video that seems to be entirely static
00:43:20 <Bike> i guess that's the same as the albums
00:43:29 <kmc> 30s USSR was probably pretty good if you're an urban industrial worker and not being arbitrarily purged by stalin
00:44:07 <Bike> i guess. i'm guessing these jokes were popular, though...
00:44:13 <kmc> yeah
00:45:18 <Bike> "Jokes about Khrushchev are often related to his attempts to reform the economy, especially to introduce maize. He was even called kukuruznik (maizeman)" it's weird how corn wasn't a thing in the old world, man
00:46:02 <Phantom_Hoover> are cornflakes actually made with corn
00:46:08 <kmc> it's weird how many european countries are associated with a national cuisine that couldn't exist in the pre-columbian era
00:46:17 <kmc> tomatoes in italy, potatoes in ireland
00:46:25 <Phantom_Hoover> coffee too, right?
00:46:26 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism_in_20_years it's great how this sounds exactly like transhumanism
00:46:28 <Phantom_Hoover> chocolate definitely.
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00:46:37 <kmc> communism in 20 years, fusion power in 30
00:46:41 <Bike> kmc: according to my book on burma corn got so popular so fast that it is and was considered native
00:46:57 <kmc> they didn't have tobacco in old europe either
00:46:59 <kmc> right
00:47:15 <Bike> "A follower of Sylvester Graham, the inventor of graham crackers and graham bread, Kellogg believed that spicy or sweet foods would increase passions." the invention of cornflakes
00:47:16 <kmc> Bike: meaning what
00:47:22 <kmc> yeah fuck that guy
00:47:45 <Bike> kmc: meaning if you asked a burmese farmer where corn came from they'd probably say their ancestors had been farming it for millenia.
00:47:45 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chute_tobacco.JPG tbh not sure what this guy is smoking is tobacco
00:47:48 <kmc> Bike: haha
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00:48:07 <Bike> i like how traditions are so often untraditional~
00:48:21 <kmc> corn is pretty cool. if you've invented nixtamalization i guess
00:48:27 <kmc> also how the fuck did people come up with stuff like that
00:48:40 <Bike> dude have you seen the grain corn evolved from?
00:48:43 <kmc> let's mix some lye and ash into this food and see if it becomes better
00:48:44 <Bike> i don't even know how people came up with corn
00:48:45 <kmc> good plan bro
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00:48:49 <kmc> Bike: which one is that
00:48:54 <Bike> teosinte
00:49:05 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Teosinte_Jalisco.jpg look at this shit!
00:49:08 <Bike> "yes, let's farm this"
00:49:23 <Phantom_Hoover> hmm
00:49:33 <Bike> i'm just saying there was a fucking crazy mesoamerican agriculturalist back in the day
00:49:35 <Phantom_Hoover> how much of guns germs and steel is bullshit
00:49:47 <Bike> a lot of it
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00:50:23 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Corncobs.jpg pretty
00:50:35 <Bike> (i haven't read it but) from what i understand anthropologists usually consider it to overemphasize geography (because, written by geographer) and they largely don't like geographic determinism, though they do think geography is important obviously
00:51:01 <Bike> and iirc his numbers on spread of different crops are basically pulled out of his ass.
00:51:33 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, each kernel is actually fertilised individually so you can actually use cobs as really neat demonstrations of mendelevian genetics
00:51:39 <kmc> really
00:51:40 <kmc> awesome
00:52:02 <Phantom_Hoover> there are even two sets of really obvious dominant/recessive traits
00:52:18 <Bike> one time my parents accidentally crossed edible corn and indian corn
00:52:26 <Bike> good demonstration of plant breeding (none of the result was edible)
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00:52:56 <Phantom_Hoover> are your parents... farmers?
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00:53:17 <Bike> wannabes
00:53:29 <Bike> it was just a backyard garden
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00:53:54 <Phantom_Hoover> lightweights
00:54:03 <Phantom_Hoover> (are american farmers all the american version of posh?)
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00:54:25 <kmc> i lived down the street from the Pioneer Hybrid experimental corn farm
00:54:53 <Bike> well there's lots of kind of american farming, there's industrial farming and there's my neighbors, you know?
00:55:03 <Bike> i wouldn't describe either as posh
00:55:31 <kmc> in new hampshire and vermont it seemed like a lot of people had basically a suburban house with a small farm, near other suburban houses
00:55:33 <Bike> can you be posh if you know how to operate and repair combine harvesters
00:55:41 <Phantom_Hoover> yes
00:55:51 <kmc> bigger and more farm-shaped than what you would call a 'backyard garden' and they had some livestock too
00:55:57 <kmc> but not enough to live from solely
00:56:09 <Phantom_Hoover> the only tory area in scotland is the one with lots of farmers and not much else
00:56:26 <kmc> you could buy eggs at the store and they would have a handwritten label saying whose chickens they came from and you could go there and say hi to the chickens probably
00:57:06 <kmc> whereas I grew up near a bunch of big industrial farms with buildings very far apart that can only be worked by expensive machines
00:57:28 <kmc> also the industrial pig lots
00:57:30 <kmc> smell fucking awful
00:58:08 <kmc> aiui pigs aren't really inherently dirty, but they aren't picky either
00:58:35 <Bike> i eat eggs from chickens that live in my backyard. am i posh
00:58:40 <Phantom_Hoover> no
00:58:44 <kmc> that's p. cool
00:58:45 <kmc> how many do you have
00:58:47 <Phantom_Hoover> that's a middle-class thing, for sure
00:58:59 <kmc> it's a middle class thing and also a yuppie thing
00:59:02 <Bike> six
00:59:06 <kmc> how often do they lay
00:59:19 <Bike> they used to all lay once a day but they don't any more
00:59:22 <Bike> we're gonna slaughter 'em soon
00:59:24 <kmc> ok
00:59:41 <Phantom_Hoover> hatch an egg from each of them!!
00:59:50 <kmc> going to grow oyster mushrooms at the new place, not any chickens though probably
00:59:55 <Bike> «A frightened man came to the KGB. "My talking parrot disappeared." "This is not our case. Go to the criminal police." "Excuse me. Of course I know that I have to go to them. I am here just to tell you officially that I disagree with that parrot."»
00:59:56 <kmc> you need a rooster for that PH
01:00:00 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: roosters are the actual worst though
01:00:23 <Phantom_Hoover> you're a biologist! work something out!
01:00:51 <kmc> you can't have a rooster in a (sub)urban area
01:01:19 <Bike> "My wife has been going to cooking school for three years." / "She must really cook well by now!" / "No, they've only reached the part about the Twentieth CPSU Congress so far."
01:01:28 <Bike> we're not suburban, we just don't want to deal with roosters >_>
01:01:38 <Bike> the neighbors' are already annoying enough
01:01:39 <kmc> how far is the nearest other house
01:01:41 <kmc> heh
01:01:45 <Phantom_Hoover> do you... live in the country
01:01:48 <Bike> i do
01:02:04 <kmc> also you're in WA, are you going to start growing cannabis
01:02:08 <kmc> does the climate there support it
01:02:18 <Bike> i don't know where cannabis grows actually
01:02:23 <Bike> the climate here is basically: wet
01:02:28 <kmc> i have a video about how to grow weed indoor; it seems like a pretty fun project; I kind of wish I'd done it when I was in college and the risks were minimal
01:03:36 <Bike> Yeltsin's aide approaches him and says, "Mister President, two guests are here to see you: the Pope, and the director of the International Monetary Fund. Who shall I show in first?" Yeltsin thinks for a moment, then says: "Show in the Pope; at least I only have to kiss his ring."
01:04:05 <Fiora> bike, these are terrible
01:04:17 <Bike> mo like awesome
01:04:43 <kmc> yeah you can grow pot in WA i'm pretty sure
01:04:50 <Bike> kmc: i think the main obstacle to growing weed right now is that the licensing system isn't implemented yet
01:04:55 <kmc> a lot of it is grown in norcal (it's 1/3 of the economy in mendocino county)
01:05:04 <Bike> well, main legal obstacle
01:05:05 <kmc> and the #1 cash crop statewide
01:05:13 <kmc> http://www.nwpr.org/post/indoor-marijuana-grows-could-hamper-seattles-climate-change-goals
01:05:15 <Bike> wait. why did i even ask about the climate? they already grow tons of weed up the road
01:05:55 <Bike> kmc: that's like the most seattle thing i've ever seen.
01:06:04 <kmc> says outdoor grows are easier east of the cascades
01:06:15 <Bike> east of the cascades is basically all farms, so
01:07:01 <Bike> it's near-desert, the contrast with the west here is kinda neat.
01:08:09 <kmc> cool
01:09:33 <Bike> the school i'm going to is in the east too, it's farm school as fuck
01:11:52 <Bike> to get there i took this road: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_State_Route_26 which had like three towns in seventy miles, which i took mostly at 100 mph
01:16:15 <kmc> nicu
01:16:17 <kmc> nice*
01:16:54 <kmc> http://labs.spotify.com/2013/06/18/creative-usernames/
01:20:45 <Bike> 8but do they support SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW?
01:22:41 <Bike> wow, that's a nasty attack
01:23:21 <kmc> yep
01:23:56 <shachaf> kmc: did you read the hunting of the snark
01:23:58 <kmc> no
01:24:01 <shachaf> ok
01:24:10 <Bike> can you even reliably fold case across languages
01:24:13 <shachaf> should i paste 12 lines of it in here........................ y/n
01:24:16 <Bike> that seems lie it might be intractable
01:24:18 <Bike> n
01:24:26 <shachaf> y not
01:24:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, turkish, for one
01:24:37 <Bike> that;s a lot of lines
01:25:19 <Bike> http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Case_folding#Turkish_i.2FI_etc. that doesn't seem hard
01:25:34 <Bike> i guess this is called "normalization", oops
01:27:02 <Phantom_Hoover> it seems like the least hassle would just be having people pick an account and display name separately and make the account name publicly accessible
01:27:07 <Bike> that paper i read on burmese unicode involved things like using zero-width spaces to mark syllable boundaries... optionally
01:27:22 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: and the account name has to be ascii?
01:27:34 <kmc> that's what twitter does i guess
01:27:39 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah
01:28:06 * kmc wonders what kind of awesome username he would pick on a site that forced Cyrillic usernames
01:28:06 <Phantom_Hoover> it's not ideal but it does work
01:28:16 <Bike> give everyone a meaningless ID number, and then have a displayed name?
01:28:28 <Bike> kmc: i call "Кракозя́бры"
01:28:36 <kmc> Bike: but when you log in you need to provide some ID
01:28:44 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah
01:28:44 <Bike> well yeah
01:28:56 <Bike> make people remember the number ("but that sucks" "so does everything")
01:29:10 <shachaf> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/13/13-h/13-h.htm hth
01:29:15 <Sgeo> Bike, that's what AW does... not for a particularly good reason though, Unicode names weren't supported until 5.0
01:29:15 <Phantom_Hoover> for people who just flat out don't know ascii you could have a 'create random name' button and tell them to remember it
01:30:02 <Bike> so same as mine.
01:30:02 <kmc> Bike: shitty UX
01:30:02 <Bike> UX?
01:30:05 <kmc> user xperience
01:30:13 <Bike> aw :(
01:30:25 <shachaf> He had bought a large map representing the sea, / Without the least vestige of land: / And the crew were much pleased when they found it to be / A map they could all understand. "What's the good of Mercator's North Poles and Equators, / Tropics, Zones, and Meridian Lines?" / So the Bellman would cry: and the crew would reply / "They are merely conventional signs!
01:30:27 <kmc> sorry but consumer apps will always choose the pleasant UX over the move that theoretically makes certain security holes go away
01:30:30 <Bike> it's like, i already have my SSN and uni ID# memorized, why not pile more onto that
01:30:31 <shachaf> "Other mps are such shapes, with teheir islands and capes! / But we've got our brave Captain to thank:" / (So the crew would protest) "that he's bought us the best— / A perfect and absolute blank!"
01:30:34 <shachaf> oops
01:30:41 <Bike> oh and my phone number i guess
01:30:45 <Bike> basically i hate everything.
01:30:46 <shachaf> two lines got merged into one line "sry"
01:30:50 <shachaf> by lines i mean verses
01:31:14 <Phantom_Hoover> (are there keyboards without ascii readily accessible on them?)
01:31:22 <Bike> the whole of ascii?
01:31:26 <Bike> i can't type control characters
01:31:30 <Phantom_Hoover> yes
01:31:30 <shachaf> Uh, yes you can.
01:31:36 <shachaf> That's what the Control key is for.
01:31:37 <Phantom_Hoover> i started saying ascii instead of latin a while back
01:31:46 <Phantom_Hoover> and i've kind of committed
01:31:56 <shachaf> oerjan: ban Phantom_Hoover hth
01:31:59 -!- Bike has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:32:07 <Phantom_Hoover> help why
01:32:15 <kmc> well 'latin' could include a lot of diacritis and stuff
01:32:20 -!- Bike has joined.
01:32:21 <kmc> or just all of ISO-8859-1
01:32:27 <Phantom_Hoover> 'english' :P
01:32:42 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: but yeah if you have a turkish keyboard or whatever and you don't need "c" it's not gonna be obviously there
01:32:43 <Phantom_Hoover> ofc. if you're going to be a pedant that still includes non-ascii characters
01:33:31 <Bike> i think japanese keyboards maybe usually only allow fullwidth input i dunno
01:33:56 <kmc> i still have a 40 bit WEP key from 2005 memorized
01:34:10 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:800px-KB_Thai_Kedmanee.png
01:34:11 <shachaf> I still have a list of words from third grade memorized.
01:34:13 <shachaf> We all memorized them!
01:34:28 <Phantom_Hoover> wow, not even arabic numbers
01:34:44 <Bike> Maybe this problem would be better attacked by psychologists...
01:34:56 <Bike> have them figure out what can be (a) easily typed (b) easily remembered (c) not easily guessed?
01:35:12 <shachaf> binyan chevel matos orev falafel bateriyot kfitz dam nechashim chol maghetz prachim shvil yeled savta
01:35:19 <Phantom_Hoover> why do you not want it guessed...
01:35:27 <shachaf> I bet every classmate I had in third grade remembers that list.
01:35:32 <Bike> well that's for passwords since that's what i was complaining about earlier.
01:35:41 <Phantom_Hoover> oh
01:35:47 <Bike> Oh, on that note. I got my password reset! I called in and recited my ID# and birthdate.
01:35:50 <Bike> p. secure
01:36:07 <Phantom_Hoover> (do unicode passwords end up being messy? i mean i can't see there being any problems)
01:36:21 <kmc> WEP is so bad
01:36:36 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: there's a lot of potential for false negatives on the password check
01:36:39 <Bike> is WEP the one that's super easily crackable
01:36:46 <Bike> i always get it confused with WPA
01:36:52 <kmc> you have to normalize to prevent that
01:37:02 <kmc> and users might still include invisible characters by mistake
01:37:09 <kmc> Bike: yeah it's the one
01:37:17 <kmc> they used RC4 with a 24 bit IV
01:37:20 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, i'm working on the assumption that people probably aren't going to use crazy alternate glyphs for their own passwords
01:37:23 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:37:25 <kmc> "For a 24-bit IV, there is a 50% probability the same IV will repeat after 5000 packets."
01:37:32 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: they might use different computers and different input modes though
01:37:36 <Bike> yeah that was pretty great.
01:37:38 -!- pikhq has joined.
01:37:44 <shachaf> > 1.2 * sqrt (2^24)
01:37:46 <lambdabot> 4915.2
01:37:47 <shachaf> zomg it works
01:37:51 <Phantom_Hoover> how much scope for difference is there with input modes
01:37:54 <Bike> For instance, in ISO 8859-1 the letter 'ç' can only be represented as the single character E7 'ç', but in a Unicode encoding it can be represented as the single character U+00E7 'ç' or the sequence U+0063 'c' U+0327 '¸'. In HTML it could be additionally represented as &ccedil; or &#xE7; or &#231; (five equivalent representations in total).
01:38:03 <Bike> This is in the web report on normalization; seems like a pretty good example
01:38:08 <kmc> yeah
01:38:17 <shachaf> isn't that 1.2 * sqrt n thing p. great
01:38:19 <shachaf> imo yes
01:38:32 <kmc> why 1.2?
01:38:34 <kmc> what?
01:38:35 <shachaf> and i "h8 apprxmtions"
01:38:38 <kmc> is this a fake logarithm
01:38:43 <Bike> > sqrt (2^24)
01:38:44 <lambdabot> 4096.0
01:38:56 <shachaf> > 1.2 * sqrt 365
01:38:57 <lambdabot> 22.925967809451357
01:39:13 <Phantom_Hoover> why is unicode so fond of alternate glyphs anyway
01:39:15 <shachaf> It's the birthday probability thing for a 50% chance of collision when there are N days.
01:39:24 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: round trip compatibility with legacy encodings
01:39:50 <kmc> this design goal is perhaps regrettable, but it's very useful sometimes
01:39:59 <Bike> what's it useful for
01:40:04 <shachaf> I don't remember the exact derivation...
01:40:04 <kmc> for example it means your programming language can have a single type for "text", and only think about encodings on input and output
01:40:10 <Bike> oh
01:40:22 <Phantom_Hoover> more useful than computer manipulation of some characters being ridiculously fiddly?
01:40:40 <kmc> compared to (say) ruby where the bytes making up a string are observable, and the encoding is stored as metadata that can be inaccurate
01:41:03 <shachaf> Ruby 1.9 is much better than 1.8 about things.
01:41:17 <Bike> i'm not sure you could handle "text" generically in any way that isn't fiddly as hell
01:41:24 <kmc> aren't the cool kids using 2.0 now
01:41:37 <Sgeo> Did Ruby do the dumb thing and kill call/cc yet?
01:41:45 <kmc> yeah I have to imagine you would need some notion of normalization even without the legacy encoding design goal
01:41:52 <kmc> for example what about the order in which combining chars are applied
01:42:01 <Bike> ooh that was in the burma thing too.
01:42:10 <shachaf> Ruby killed callcc and then brought it back,
01:42:12 <shachaf> s/.$/./
01:42:15 <Bike> the normalization scheme involved the pagelong regex i mentioned eariler.
01:42:31 <Bike> "good scheme"
01:44:10 <Bike> "an EBCDIC style sheet being directly applied to an ASCII document, or a font specification in a Shift_JIS style sheet directly used on a system that maintains font names in UTF-16" the horror......
01:44:52 <kmc> i like the hacks where XSS sanitization becomes ineffective if you convince the user to switch their browser to Shift-JIS
01:45:05 <kmc> if an attacker does, I mean
01:45:42 <Bike> have we considered, like, abandoning the concept of writing
01:45:44 <Bike> for security reasons
01:46:15 <shachaf> remember the stripe ctf thing where we had different solutions
01:46:35 <Bike> we can just communicate with hand gestures and grunting
01:46:38 <shachaf> mine was embedding </script> inside some json text
01:47:01 <shachaf> i don't remember your solution
01:47:14 <shachaf> was your solution the fact that there was a bug in the ctf and it just gave you a cookie with secret information
01:47:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, no
01:47:31 <Bike> imo we should consider it.
01:47:36 <Phantom_Hoover> attackers might punch people
01:47:42 <kmc> that was my solution shachaf
01:47:57 <kmc> i didn't know about the </script> trick at the time
01:47:59 <shachaf> good solution
01:48:05 <shachaf> you solved three levels that way right
01:48:13 <kmc> i don't think so
01:48:18 <shachaf> hmm
01:48:22 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: we have robust security protocols for dealing with that though! (shooting them)
01:48:23 <kmc> i think that was the only one where I didn't get the "right" solution
01:48:23 <shachaf> they mentioned that three levels had that bug
01:48:27 <shachaf> ah
01:48:30 <shachaf> v. powerful attack imo
01:48:36 <kmc> it's super effective
01:48:50 <Bike> i wonder if "..." -> "…" could count as normalization
01:48:53 <shachaf> do you identify with the main character in unicode
01:48:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, attackers might goad users into punching them
01:49:11 <shachaf> do you identify with the main character in main is usually a function
01:49:20 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: entrapment!!
01:49:46 <Phantom_Hoover> hey kmc you're all about mushrooms right
01:49:51 <Phantom_Hoover> can you make booze with them
01:50:08 <shachaf> Menlo Park, CA, United States 06/18/2013 6:27 A.M.Out For Delivery
01:50:16 <shachaf> where are my books..........did they die
01:50:47 <Bike> «In some of the following examples, '¸' is used to depict the character U+0327 combining cedilla, for the purposes of illustration. Had a real U+0327 been used instead of this spacing (non-combining) variant, some browsers might combine it with a preceding 'c', resulting in a display indistinguishable from a U+00E7 'ç' and a loss of understandability of the examples. In addition, if the sequence c + combining cedilla were present, ...
01:50:53 <Bike> ... this document would not be include-normalized.» help
01:50:56 <Bike> shachaf: what books
01:51:11 <shachaf> fictional books
01:51:17 <shachaf> they're full of things that never actually happened
01:51:41 <Bike> oh
01:51:54 <shachaf> unless they're double-fictional
01:52:05 <shachaf> kmc: Did you switch to tmux yet?
01:54:51 -!- sprocklem has joined.
01:57:20 <copumpkin> http://www.bitpremier.com/items/view/37
01:58:27 <kmc> shachaf: i switched, now i've switched back to screen mostly
01:58:31 <kmc> because screen stopped segfaulting
01:58:52 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: i don't know about that
01:58:56 <kmc> will ask a friend one sec
01:59:15 <shachaf> kmc: but what about 1D74F MATHEMATICAL BOLD ITALIC PARTIAL DIFFERENTIAL [𝝏]
01:59:36 <Phantom_Hoover> apparently the protein content makes them useless for it
02:00:01 <Bike> oh my god.
02:00:02 <shachaf> good codepoints
02:00:10 <Bike> what have you wrought, unicode.
02:00:15 <shachaf> yay my books
02:00:17 <Bike> why is it not CAPITAL PHI SYMBOL
02:00:19 <Bike> so many questions
02:01:18 <shachaf> ugh
02:01:20 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: she thinks it's unlikely
02:01:29 <shachaf> people who stick those stickers on the backs of books.....................
02:01:51 <kmc> mushrooms don't contain much carbohydrates and when they do, it's usually something like trehalose that generally can't be digested
02:01:56 <copumpkin> kmc: you in CA now?
02:02:05 <kmc> copumpkin: not yet; leaving next thursday
02:02:05 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, damn
02:02:10 <Phantom_Hoover> dwarf fortress is ruined now
02:02:22 <kmc> what happened in df
02:02:36 <Sgeo> Someone posted a huge thing about it in the subreddit?
02:02:48 <shachaf> copumpkin: You should come visit!
02:02:50 <copumpkin> kmc: already have a job or gonna look for one there?
02:02:52 <Bike> shachaf: the worst
02:02:52 <kmc> sounds like they are sometimes used as additives in beer
02:02:53 <Sgeo> I have no idea how that ruins it, but hey
02:02:58 <kmc> copumpkin: I'm going to be working at Mozilla
02:03:00 <copumpkin> shachaf: I'd love to :P competing interests
02:03:03 <copumpkin> oh yeah, forgot
02:03:03 <kmc> working on Servo, the new browser written in Rust
02:03:08 <kmc> should be fun times
02:03:13 <Bike> new browser huh
02:03:14 <copumpkin> cool :)
02:03:18 <Bike> excitin
02:03:22 <Bike> what part will you be working on, do you know
02:03:37 <kmc> Bike: yeah, well, it's just a new rendering engine for now, and they've just progressed to the point where you can, like, click on links
02:03:40 <kmc> so it's still early days
02:03:40 <shachaf> is it big enough that people are working on "parts"
02:03:55 <kmc> but they are pretty serious about it eventually being a real thing
02:04:11 <kmc> shachaf: I think I'm like the second or third full time paid employee working on Servo specifically
02:04:16 <kmc> most of the dev to date has been done by the Rust team
02:04:24 <kmc> also it's all open source so they have various others contributing
02:04:32 <kmc> a bunch of people at Samsung are contributing to Rust and Servo now
02:04:41 <coppro> lolrust
02:04:52 <coppro> also why does kmc have +v
02:05:00 <kmc> seized it in a bloodless coup
02:05:06 <kmc> (all stranglings)
02:05:11 <coppro> I feel like this is unhfairly discriminating against mutes
02:05:18 <kmc> coppro: what do you think of rust
02:05:29 <coppro> kmc: I think it needs to actually be thought about
02:05:32 <coppro> rather than just built
02:06:52 <kmc> mozilla seems like a fantastic place to work
02:07:16 <kmc> also they pay... quite well, especially for being a non-profit
02:08:41 <copumpkin> :O
02:08:45 <copumpkin> omg monies
02:09:10 <copumpkin> what funds them?
02:09:21 <Bike> the google mafia
02:09:55 <kmc> google pays them mad cash to have google be the default search engine in firefox
02:10:06 <Bike> soon capitalism will be replaced by the "get google to pay you" economy
02:10:08 <copumpkin> lol
02:10:10 <kmc> basically yes
02:10:19 <copumpkin> wait, that's it?
02:10:23 <kmc> that's most of their revenue yeah
02:10:26 <copumpkin> holy shit
02:10:33 <kmc> they have similar partnerships with other search engines in other countries
02:10:35 <kmc> i know right?
02:10:36 <copumpkin> don't they employ hundreds of devs?
02:10:53 <shachaf> On 20 December 2011 Mozilla announced that the contract was once again renewed for at least three years to November 2014, at three times the amount previously paid, or nearly US$300 million annually.[11][12] Approximately 85% of Mozilla’s revenue for 2006 was derived from this contract.
02:10:59 <kmc> in their recent deal with google they got 3x the previous rate, thanks to a bidding war between google and msft
02:11:00 <copumpkin> wow
02:11:06 <copumpkin> that's crazy
02:11:08 <kmc> yeah they have over 600 employees total
02:11:11 <kmc> and like a dozen really nice offices
02:11:13 <Bike> totally stable business model, there
02:11:25 <copumpkin> mind blown :)
02:11:38 <kmc> the current contract is locked in until november 2014
02:11:43 <kmc> and they think that if google stops paying, they can get other companies easily
02:11:48 <kmc> unless FF market share takes a nosedive of course
02:11:52 <kmc> so they care a lot about that ;P
02:11:56 <shachaf> does opera make any money that way
02:11:58 <copumpkin> I see why google's putting a lot of weight behind chrome :)
02:12:09 <Bike> where's google get its revenue anyway. is it ads like seems obvious or do they sacrifice children or what
02:12:13 <kmc> mostly ads
02:12:23 <kmc> or so they say... could be laundering money from child sacrifices
02:13:09 <copumpkin> I pay good money to watch gruesome child-death
02:13:22 <copumpkin> don't y'all?
02:13:23 <Bike> Google Royale
02:13:40 <kmc> google's whole business model is about providing services to get more people on the web, and giving stuff away for free so that nobody else can charge for it
02:13:41 <shachaf> copumpkin: no more than five dola
02:13:53 <kmc> because they are the best at ads
02:14:00 <Bike> kmc: that sounds really cynical when you put it that way
02:14:06 <kmc> they don't care if you use gmail or some other webmail that also serves google ads ;P
02:14:16 <kmc> Bike: *shrug* google gotta get paid
02:14:23 <kmc> can't fault them for being a for profit company
02:14:32 <Bike> i mean it's not surprising, i just hadn't thought of it that way
02:15:11 <kmc> this is why they made Android; Apple was on the way to a smartphone monopoly, and if they had that monopoly they could start to undermine Google's whole deal
02:15:19 <kmc> because the Apple model is about paying for content in a walled garden
02:15:47 <kmc> I mean if Apple had such a monopoly they could chip away at the very idea that search and maps etc. should be ubiquitous free services
02:16:21 <Bike> what if a company comes around with a model based on ads being a free service
02:16:25 <Bike> !!!
02:16:31 <kmc> ¡¡¡
02:16:36 <kmc> doom
02:16:36 <Bike> YES
02:16:39 <Bike> oh no
02:17:00 <shachaf> Petronius the Arbiter is a good name for a cat.
02:18:22 <shachaf> While still a kitten, all fluff and buzzes, Pete had worked out a simple philosophy. I was in charge of quarters, rations, and weather; he was in charge of everything else. But he held me especially responsible for weather. Connecticut winters are good only for Christmas cards; regularly that winter Pete would check his own door, refuse to go out it because of that unpleasant white stuff beyond it (he was no fool), then badger me to open a ...
02:18:28 <shachaf> ... people door.
02:18:31 <shachaf> He had a fixed conviction that at least one of them must lead into summer weather. Each time this meant that I had to go around with him to each of eleven doors, hold it open while he satisfied himself that it was winter out that way, too, then go on to the next door, while his criticisms of my mismanagement grew more bitter with each disappointment.
02:19:14 <kmc> `addquote <kmc> doom <Bike> YES <Bike> oh no
02:19:18 <HackEgo> 1054) <kmc> doom <Bike> YES <Bike> oh no
02:21:15 <kmc> Bike: haha Google Royale
02:21:30 <kmc> that reminds me I should watch The Internship, that terrible movie / 2 hour ad for Google that came out recently
02:21:36 <Bike> lol really
02:22:01 <shachaf> have you considered all the alternatives you have to watching it
02:22:04 <shachaf> such as not watching it
02:22:24 <Bike> what's it about
02:22:31 <Bike> beyond "an internship" i guess
02:22:35 <Phantom_Hoover> what... is google royale
02:23:09 <kmc> it's about two old guys who have to compete with a bunch of Kids These Days for an internship at google
02:23:10 <Bike> pun on Battle Royale
02:23:20 <Phantom_Hoover> that
02:23:22 <Bike> which is a japanese movie about kids killing each other
02:23:25 <Phantom_Hoover> is the opposite of a pun
02:23:34 <Bike> your mom is the opposite of a pun
02:28:27 <Sgeo> Do there, in fact, exist programmers that know what they're doing?
02:28:27 <Bike> so i just realized that STEM means basically nothing. how do i deal with this
02:28:34 <Bike> nobody knows what they're doing
02:28:37 <Bike> people don't know things
02:28:39 <Bike> folk psychology
02:28:44 <kmc> i know what i'm doing
02:28:49 <kmc> but also so do most people, roughly
02:29:04 <Bike> the two sides of the debate
02:29:11 <kmc> the truth is in the middle
02:29:14 <kmc> obviously
02:29:39 <coppro> kmc: no the truth is obviously to one side
02:29:43 <coppro> (try applying your doctrine now, hah)
02:30:07 <kmc> the truth is in the 1/4 or 3/4 position
02:30:19 <Sgeo> The truth has an asymtotic curve towards one side.
02:31:22 <Phantom_Hoover> what
02:31:32 <Phantom_Hoover> that doesn't make sense Sgeo
02:31:43 <Bike> the truth doesn't make sense
02:31:54 <kmc> you can't handle the truth
02:31:57 <Phantom_Hoover> you don't make snes
02:32:24 <Sgeo> Truth is center, truth is a side, truth is somewhere between those two except it's to one side, so let's go between those except it's to a side, so...
02:32:40 <Bike> is that a song lyric
02:32:54 <Phantom_Hoover> i hope so
02:32:59 <Phantom_Hoover> otherwise
02:33:00 <Bike> same
02:33:01 <Phantom_Hoover> sgeo...
02:33:06 <Bike> same
02:33:15 <Sgeo> I was under the impression that this entire conversation was silly...
02:33:56 <Bike> whoa
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02:53:06 <kmc> if you're moving to California you have to inspect all of your stuff for gypsy moths
02:53:29 <kmc> i guess
02:53:38 <kmc> this didn't happen the first time I moved to California
02:54:06 <Bike> haven't they always been strict about invasives? when we drove down there a couple years ago they stopped us at the border to search for oranges
02:54:46 <kmc> heh
02:59:02 <kmc> szechuan pepper used to be banned for import to the US because it can carry a citrus disease
03:13:42 <shachaf> How thorough is the inspection?
03:14:02 <kmc> it's a self-inspection
03:14:04 <Bike> we had to open containers and stuff
03:14:09 <Bike> for the guard
03:14:32 <kmc> also it's not everything, they have a checklist mostly of stuff that is stored outside, camping gear, things like that
03:18:39 <kmc> Bike: what do you mean by "STEM means basically nothing"
03:18:56 <Bike> well, what's it supposed to include?
03:19:33 <kmc> science, technology, engineering, and math
03:19:58 <kmc> there are some grey areas, that doesn't mean it's meaningless
03:20:04 <kmc> that's a very STEM attitude ;)
03:20:20 <shachaf> @quote formalist
03:20:20 <lambdabot> SaulGorn says: A formalist is one who cannot understand a theory unless it is meaningless.
03:20:21 <Bike> hardy har. But I mean, the NSF and others define it differently, etc
03:21:51 <kmc> yeah but their definitions are not totally divergent right
03:22:15 <Bike> one's a subset of the other, i guess
03:22:41 <kmc> did this observation come out of a more specific inconsistency between them?
03:23:12 <Bike> well, the reason i was thinking about it is that computational neuroscience counts me as STEM at school, even though i don't think biosciences generally do
03:23:21 <kmc> programming is cool because it's variously considered S, T, E, or M and people will argue forever about which it is
03:23:27 <kmc> how is bioscience not science
03:23:33 <Bike> hell if i know
03:23:40 <kmc> that's very weird
03:23:43 <kmc> who says it isn't?
03:23:59 <Fiora> maybe it's because of that thing where like, "STEM" tends to mean whatever the speaker thinks of as ~real sciences for real men~ type of thing
03:24:05 <kmc> "The NSF uses a broader category to define STEM subjects which includes subjects in the fields of Chemistry, Computer and Information Technology Science, Engineering, Geosciences, Life Science..."
03:24:25 <kmc> yeah
03:24:42 <kmc> after all bioscience can't be nearly as hard as building daily deals sites in rails
03:24:43 <Bike> US ICE doesn't list straight biology as STEM, looks like
03:25:01 <Fiora> like is sociology a STEM?
03:25:03 <Fiora> I mean it's science
03:25:07 <Fiora> is psychology science enough?
03:25:30 <Bike> NSF and ICE list it
03:25:34 <Fiora> or economics? I mean that's math, right? it's like. where do you draw the line?
03:25:47 <Bike> (man why does the DHS even have this list. immigration policy is so fucked)
03:25:56 <kmc> Bike: i know right
03:26:14 <kmc> "welp you got your degree and could start a lucrative business now so GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE COUNTRY"
03:26:27 <Bike> "Digital Communication and Media/Multimedia" is STEM
03:26:39 <kmc> i don't really have an opinion on whether social science should be included in "STEM"
03:26:41 <kmc> i just... don't care
03:26:57 <Bike> well mostly i think that like, the whole policy it's based around is pretty stupid regardless
03:27:12 <kmc> it depends on context i'm sure. like people often talk about getting young kids interested in STEM, and in that case it's more about some fundamental skills that are applicable in lots of fields
03:27:15 <Bike> like what's the idea? we need more engineers but not more doctors so let's put more money into engineering education?
03:27:16 <kmc> like, you know, math
03:27:24 <kmc> and about making it seem exciting
03:27:43 <kmc> Bike: what's wrong with that kind of government policy
03:27:56 <kmc> if you think their reasoning for needing more engineers is wrong, that's one thing
03:28:07 <Bike> well it might work if you were more specific, but just science in general seems pretty vague?
03:28:15 <Bike> you could just fund postsecondary education at that point
03:28:26 <kmc> there are a lot of things that are clearly not STEM
03:28:31 <kmc> i dunno
03:28:35 <Fiora> culinary sciences
03:28:37 <Fiora> is that STEM? XD
03:28:41 <kmc> 'molecular gastronomy'
03:28:49 <Bike> wow they list four different "Computer Programming" programs
03:28:51 <kmc> i hear that term was invented to secure space at a scientific conference
03:29:00 <Bike> Fiora: no, but food science is
03:29:14 <Fiora> "food science"?
03:29:30 <Bike> no idea, this just has names
03:29:57 <Bike> Ceramic Sciences and Engineering
03:30:06 <Bike> (this is all the list for immigration)
03:30:24 <Bike> aw yiss they list mechatronics. i need to get in on that
03:31:22 <shachaf> `welcome Gracenotes to california
03:31:24 <HackEgo> Gracenotes: to: california: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:31:25 <Bike> Packaging Science. ?????
03:31:35 <shachaf> There. That's how you welcome people!
03:32:12 <Bike> What do air, cars, laptops, plants, knee-replacements and lunch have in common? They all can be and are packaged! Students majoring in packaging science learn all about the design, engineering, science, innovation, research and business that make up this diverse industry. For more then 20 years, Clemson has been thinking outside of the box and producing career-ready graduates who are ready to solve the problems of tomorrow. Clemson is ...
03:32:18 <Bike> ... one of just seven schools in the U.S. that offer a degree in packaging science. Our program is unique as it blends together biology, chemistry and physics so when you graduate you can fill a need within industry. Since this is a very hands-on major, you’ll get to work with package design and graphics, food and health care packaging and advanced materials.
03:32:51 <kmc> "outside of the box" I GET IT
03:33:08 <Bike> that's the kind of thinking you'll learn in this program, kmc
03:33:21 <kmc>
03:33:30 <Gracenotes> Amazon hired package scientists to design its new ecofriendly packaging tape, I'm sure
03:33:36 <Bike> i wonder what the hell biology has to do with it though.
03:33:50 <shachaf> more like ▣
03:33:50 <Bike> like... dealing with rotting, maybe?
03:34:02 <Bike> i like how WHITE SQAURE is black on my terminal
03:34:13 <Bike> typo*
03:34:42 <Bike> Strategic Intelligence is STEM... that sounds like a military thing
03:34:56 <Bike> General Intelligence is too and i have no idea what that is. can you major in being smart?
03:35:27 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/ggZ5yAJ.png ok when it comes down to it, I'm a pretty immature guy
03:36:01 <shachaf> What do you call a function when for any x there's some n such that f^n(x) = f^{n+1}(x)?
03:36:05 <Bike> really need to petition for combining penis again
03:36:34 <Bike> hm, good question.
03:37:49 <kmc> Bike: character is already in use http://achewood.com/index.php?date=07022008
03:38:56 <Bike> all i can think is that it's not continuous which isn't really helpful
03:39:23 <Bike> kmc: i'll start the petition right away
03:39:25 <shachaf> Why not continuous?
03:39:34 <kmc> so iterating on every input eventually reaches a fixed point?
03:39:38 <kmc> rather than some kind of cycle
03:39:45 <kmc> or infinitely flying off somewhere
03:39:58 <kmc> there's probably a term for this in chaos theory / dynamical systems
03:40:03 <kmc> that's where i would look anyway
03:40:31 <shachaf> Right.
03:40:55 <Bike> yeah it's sort of like a limit set but not
03:42:05 <shachaf> "eventually idempotent" is a term that comes to mind...
03:42:48 <shachaf> Oh, apparently someone else has used that term, too.
03:43:00 <shachaf> http://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~phorum/pdf/roa_823.pdf
03:43:15 <shachaf> ew linguistics :'(
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03:54:03 <Bike> shachaf: i checked with a dynamics guy and he couldn't think of a special term for it...
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03:55:50 <shachaf> I will continue to use "eventually idempotent", then.
03:56:13 <Bike> yeah, seems descriptive enough.
03:57:39 <kmc> seems good except in a setting where you already have an important notion of time
03:57:50 <shachaf> True.
03:57:54 <Bike> Maybe you could say that there aren't any cycles of period > 1.
03:58:30 <kmc> that is necessary but not sufficient for an infinite codomain
03:58:42 <Bike> oh, duh, yeah.
03:58:55 <kmc> i made the same mistake :)
03:59:30 <kmc> oh, biodegradable packaging :)
03:59:42 <Bike> er?
03:59:54 <kmc> is what biology has to do with packaging science
04:00:00 <Bike> yeah that's what i was thinking
04:00:15 <shachaf> kmc: model checking is "p. cool huh"
04:00:37 <kmc> shachaf: i think so, haven't done any in a long time tho
04:00:54 <mnoqy> keep-the-food-fresh packaging "the biology is for what the heck is that food doing in there what makes it spoil"
04:01:02 <kmc> have you looked at Alloy? http://alloy.mit.edu/alloy/
04:01:07 <kmc> it's like model checking but not
04:01:09 <kmc> interesting stuff
04:01:16 <mnoqy> ??model checking but not??
04:01:19 <shachaf> kmc: a monad is like a biodegradable package hth
04:01:24 <kmc> >_<
04:02:18 <kmc> imo all packaging should come pre-inoculated with oyster mushroom spawn
04:02:54 <Sgeo> Apparenty, PHP is case-insensitive for functions, but case-sensitive for variables.
04:03:00 <shachaf> or maybe a monad is like a room where the walls keep moving in and you can't escape and you get crushed
04:03:06 <shachaf> why am i doing the thing i hate
04:03:12 <Bike> Sgeo: probably so that constants work?
04:03:34 <kmc> Sgeo: hilarious
04:03:44 <Bike> i.e. somebody really wanted a variable called $_post
04:04:08 <kmc> imo death to php
04:04:11 <shachaf> I,I casein-sensitiive
04:04:20 <shachaf> s/ii/i/
04:04:28 <shachaf> Why is my keyboard producing double letters?
04:04:36 <shachaf> It started when I spilled some liquid in it.
04:04:44 <shachaf> I think? I never noticed it before.
04:04:50 <Sgeo> I mean, I don't have an opinion in the great case-insensitive vs case-sensitive debate, but I think straddling the line is probably the worst of the options
04:04:53 <shachaf> Or maybe I'm making things up.
04:05:10 <Sgeo> Is there a name for the golden mean fallacy applied in the situation where the mean is in fact the worst possible option?
04:05:19 <shachaf> Sgeo: very courageous of you to suggest that php does something badly
04:05:24 <shachaf> in here
04:05:51 <kmc> Sgeo: i would describe that result as 'worst of both worlds' but that doesn't specifically invoke the fallacy
04:06:45 <Sgeo> kmc, that phrase also implies that it's the negative features of each side that are prominent, when it's really just the inconsistency
04:06:50 <kmc> hmm
04:06:51 <kmc> true
04:07:19 <kmc> 'shifting the overton window in programming languages' would be a good title for probably a bad article
04:07:26 <Sgeo> Also, there has to be something worse. Maybe case-sensitive if compilation starts on an even second of the minute, case-insensitive otherwise?
04:07:30 <kmc> :)
04:08:43 <kmc> it could be an interesting article but i don't have any ideas on how to actually do that so i won't write it
04:09:16 <shachaf> CoYoneda . Is = (->)
04:09:18 <shachaf> isn't that great ht
04:09:20 <shachaf> h
04:10:14 <shachaf> what are some good non-functor types to give to CoYoneda
04:14:10 <Bike> :t Is
04:14:11 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Is'
04:14:11 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `In' (imported from Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Trusted)
04:14:28 <Bike> wait that was dumb. oh well
04:14:31 <kmc> is that your leibniz equality thing agai
04:14:32 <kmc> n
04:14:35 <shachaf> no
04:14:38 <shachaf> just gadt equality
04:14:41 <kmc> ok
04:14:43 <shachaf> well it doesn't matter here
04:14:49 <shachaf> @let data Is a b where Refl :: Is a a
04:14:49 <lambdabot> Parse failed: GADTs is not enabled
04:14:54 <shachaf> elliott...................
04:15:06 <shachaf> @let data Is a b = (a ~ b) => Refl
04:15:06 <lambdabot> Parse failed: TypeFamilies is not enabled
04:15:12 <Bike> lol
04:15:12 <shachaf> elliott..........................................................
04:15:27 <shachaf> Well, it hardly matters.
04:15:36 <shachaf> Yes, it's Leibniz equality.
04:15:44 <kmc> by elimination :)
04:15:54 <shachaf> @let newtype Is a b = Is { subst :: forall p. p a -> p b }
04:15:54 <lambdabot> Parse failed: TypeOperators is not enabled
04:16:04 <shachaf> elliott..............................................................................................................................................................................
04:16:23 <Bike> you already knew typeoperators wasn't enabled.
04:16:39 <kmc> what does TypeOperators have to do with it?
04:16:42 <shachaf> I wasn't using TypeOperators. I was using RankNTypes.
04:16:48 <shachaf> I think it isn't seeing forall as a keyword.
04:16:53 <shachaf> (And instead seeing . as an operator.)
04:16:54 <Bike> i thought you used it before, o well
04:17:07 <kmc> try ∀ instead, hth
04:17:46 <shachaf> Ȁ
04:17:47 <shachaf> help
04:17:51 <kmc> hjälp
04:18:08 <shachaf> ḧël̈p̈
04:18:24 <kmc> what language uses LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A WITH DOUBLE GRAVE
04:18:44 <mnoqy> imo all of them
04:18:46 <shachaf> a dead language hth
04:19:05 <shachaf> (THE JOKE IS GRAVE)
04:19:08 <shachaf> (DOUBLE GRAVE)
04:19:11 <shachaf> (BECAUSE IT DIED)
04:19:12 <kmc> more like, the joke is dire
04:19:13 <shachaf> (TWICE)
04:19:25 <kmc> has shachaf finally snapped? tune in next week
04:19:29 <mnoqy> theres a double joke whereby "hth" is a dead horse (RIP)
04:19:46 <shachaf> oerjan: ban mnoqy hth
04:22:57 <kmc> when does a monqy become a mnoqy
04:28:20 <Bike> where the heck other than the US do you have a program in "Joint Command Task Force Systems"; relatedly i'm feeling pretty bitter how much of the immigration "STEM" is military
04:28:37 <kmc> sigh
04:28:54 <kmc> i bet in german they have a single word for that
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04:29:03 <shachaf> but is it any shorter
04:29:10 <Bike> there's also "Undersea Warfare" which is definitely onewordgermanic
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04:46:52 <shachaf> (I was originally wondering about the idempotence thing because of that creative-usernames thing, for what it's worth.)
04:47:40 <Bike> oh. heh.
04:47:54 <kmc> ah yeah
05:04:51 <shachaf> `welcome´
05:04:52 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcome´: not found
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05:12:54 <Bike> «For example, finding all occurences of «homogenos» [sic] allowing two errors in a one megabyte bibliographic text takes about 0.4 seconds on a SUN SparcStation II, which is about twice as fast as running the program egrep (which will not find anything because of the misspelling)» programmers sure are cheeky sometimes
05:13:08 <Bike> «We actually used this example and found a misspelling in our text.»
05:20:45 <mnoqy> sun sparcstation ii..sounds aight..
05:21:08 <Bike> fastest chip in the west
05:21:11 <shachaf> mnoqy: what does "aight" mean
05:21:22 <Bike> a(lr)ight with a sexy accent
05:21:42 <shachaf> what does "a(lr)ight" mean
05:24:28 <Bike> what does anything mean
05:28:19 <kmc> alalr(1)ight
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06:54:20 <fizzie> Hey, I remember reading that thing. From agrep something, right?
06:54:37 <Bike> Yeah.
07:08:15 <shachaf> kmc: good mmap bug
07:08:25 <kmc> thx
07:08:56 <kmc> 'more of a ptrace bug imo'
07:10:06 <shachaf> 'well yes'
07:10:17 <shachaf> 'but mmap is shorter than ptrace and communicated what i meant just as well'
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07:10:27 <shachaf> 'which was "a bug involving mmap", not "a bug in mmap"'
07:10:28 * kmc wonders if the freebsd ptrace interface is saner than the linux one
07:10:33 <kmc> iirc os x's is even worse
07:10:34 <shachaf> these savings are now wasted on this metadiscussion
07:11:06 <shachaf> In OS X ptrace can't do half the things you want it to, right?
07:11:11 <shachaf> So there's some Mach-specific API.
07:11:11 <kmc> someone was telling me how OS X doesn't (or didn't) provide a way to ptrace the child after a fork
07:11:14 <kmc> right
07:13:08 <shachaf> would unboxed sum types improve ghc
07:13:47 <kmc> maybe
07:13:51 <kmc> would unboxed lazy vectors improve ghc
07:14:02 <Bike> how do you do unboxed lazy?
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07:28:14 <shachaf> imagine a function that e.g. returns a Maybe not actually allocating anything
07:28:42 <Bike> what a wonderful world such would be
07:29:19 <shachaf> the best of all possible worlds
07:29:27 <Bike> Maybe
07:29:57 <shachaf> eq :: (Typeable a, Typeable b) => Maybe (Is a b)
07:30:02 <shachaf> Should I push for that in base?
07:31:04 <Bike> Anyone know a basic sparse array representation I can learn quicklike?
07:31:20 <Bike> is it "basically a hash table"
07:32:04 <fizzie> It's an array of (index, value) tuples.
07:32:36 <shachaf> radix tree hth
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07:35:02 <Bike> uh, using what for branching? ranges?
07:35:36 <shachaf> Branching?
07:35:47 <Bike> of the tree.
07:36:00 <Bike> um, i was thinkin the keys would be integers, not strings, so.
07:36:09 <shachaf> integers = strings of bits hth
07:36:23 <Bike> i guess that's ranges
07:36:25 <Bike> that hs
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07:43:46 <shachaf> whoa, dude, free -h
07:44:37 <Bike> youre welcome
07:45:37 <kmc> Bike: my idea for unboxed lazy arrays is that each cell is either a pointer to a thunk or an unboxed value
07:45:44 <kmc> so they are sized to the larger of the two
07:45:49 <kmc> and you have a bitmap or something to tell you which is which
07:45:59 <shachaf> kmc: could you implement that reasonably without changing ghc itself
07:46:14 <shachaf> the main problem would be the gc i guess?
07:46:17 <kmc> if the unboxed value is smaller than a pointer then you can avoid taking up extra space for that bitmap
07:46:48 <kmc> Bike: for your sparse array how about a trie
07:48:10 <shachaf> radix tree = trie with an optimization for long prefixes
07:48:33 <Bike> yeah, i'm doing a radix tree 'cos of that.
07:48:35 <shachaf> IntMap is an example
07:48:48 <kmc> ok
07:49:21 <shachaf> have you seen Data.Map's code it's too scary :'(
07:49:27 <shachaf> shouldn't code like this be simple or something :'(
08:04:03 <Bike> what's a good way to get the position of the least significant bit not shared by two integers, i'm blanking
08:04:18 <kmc> read Hacker's Delight, hth
08:04:28 <Bike> right zero count of the xor i guess?
08:04:30 <kmc> xor them and then yep
08:04:59 <Bike> one am is not the time to be reading hacker's delight, i think
08:05:12 <kmc> gcc Built-in Function: int __builtin_ffs (unsigned int x): Returns one plus the index of the least significant 1-bit of x, or if x is zero, returns zero.
08:05:24 <Bike> ffs indeed
08:06:19 <Bike> wait, isn't that the same as builtin_ctz
08:06:28 <Bike> oh except for the defined zero
08:06:33 <kmc> oh yeah
08:06:42 <Bike> and uh plus one probably
08:06:43 <Bike> god i'm tired
08:07:08 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_trailing_zeros how convenient
08:07:10 <kmc> @oeis 1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4
08:07:40 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: <<timeout>>
08:07:52 <Bike> wow, this is in posix? i had no idea
08:08:23 -!- surma has joined.
08:08:31 <kmc> me either
08:08:33 <Bike> ok posix has ctz but not clz
08:08:34 <kmc> that's cool
08:08:35 <Bike> wtf
08:09:41 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackfin reading this stuff takes you to weird places
08:09:53 <kmc> http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?37827-Greetings-from-GE-Canada
08:09:54 <Bike> (this has hamming weight as an instruction, apparently)
08:10:02 <Bike> ONES
08:10:21 <Bike> kmc: well i'm terrified.
08:10:33 <kmc> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/19/nuke_plants_to_keep_pdp11_until_2050/
08:11:03 <kmc> Bike: me too, but I'm also glad they don't rewrite it every 2 yeras
08:11:11 <Bike> granted
08:11:17 <Bike> it seems like a weird thing to commit to, though
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08:23:01 <Taneb> `slist just now
08:23:06 <HackEgo> slist just now: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
08:26:40 <kmc> our nuclear power plants are 100% agile, we use node.js and scrum methodology
08:27:46 <Bike> kmc no ;_;
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09:11:56 <Taneb> Help I think I'm building GHC as a stress relief
09:12:34 <Taneb> No! I must stop!
09:12:46 * Taneb breathes
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09:21:34 <olsner> Taneb: how does building GHC relieve stress?
09:21:55 <Taneb> olsner, I realised it doesn't, so I stopped
09:22:06 <olsner> ah, makes sense
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10:03:59 <cpressey> https://github.com/aardappel
10:04:22 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/node/The%20Aesthetics%20of%20Esolangs.html
10:06:02 <cpressey> and i haven't heard anything more from jsvine so i'll assume he didn't get anything publishable out of the interview. but i'll ask him if he's willing to contribute his befunge program to the examples archive.
10:08:06 <cpressey> @tell zzo38 hey, i see your Please Porige Hot page is 403 forbidden. it would make me really happy if it was not forbidden!
10:08:07 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
10:11:04 <cpressey> @tell oerjan well then *i* flubbed.
10:11:05 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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10:59:39 <benuphoenix> hi
10:59:46 <mnoqy> hi
11:00:38 * benuphoenix thinks it is cool that he is running Xubuntu 13.04 (installed from a 12.10 stick and immediately upgraded) on an 8gb class-6 sdhc card.
11:02:27 <benuphoenix> so, could someone point me to a page with the brainf*ck language info?
11:02:27 <mnoqy> yeah that happens
11:02:32 <mnoqy> oh uh
11:02:38 <mnoqy> info?
11:02:59 <benuphoenix> like, commands
11:03:08 <mnoqy> try http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck
11:05:44 <benuphoenix> thanks
11:12:51 * benuphoenix thought bf would make little sense. instead, he found that unlambda makes it look normal.
11:14:10 <mnoqy> they're both pretty normal.. what makes little sense is the hype around bf
11:14:55 <benuphoenix> it's the name
11:16:05 <elliott> mnoqy: unlambda isn't very normal
11:16:13 <elliott> have you seen the details of d and c
11:16:27 <elliott> d is very not normal
11:16:29 <mnoqy> i forget what d is like but i know c
11:17:19 <mnoqy> i guess c isnt "normal"..
11:17:27 <elliott> http://www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/#delay
11:18:13 <mnoqy> ah
11:18:24 <mnoqy> dang evaluation order tricks
11:19:14 <Sgeo> thank you Taneb
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11:28:15 <Taneb> No problem, Sgeo
11:34:22 <nooodl> "and F evaluates to d (for example when F is d)"
11:34:23 <nooodl> cute
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11:36:32 <Taneb> BUT WHEN F IS NOT d!
11:36:41 <Taneb> F shall NEVER evaluate to d!
11:36:43 <Taneb> Hahahaha!
11:36:49 <Phantom_Hoover> fuck
11:36:53 <Phantom_Hoover> what happened to taneb
11:37:23 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I'm a bit stressed with exams
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11:38:00 <Phantom_Hoover> which exams
11:38:46 -!- augur has joined.
11:43:24 <Phantom_Hoover> whoah
11:43:35 <Phantom_Hoover> system shock 2 comes with a manual
11:44:31 <Taneb> A-levels
11:44:35 <Taneb> I've got two exams left
11:44:42 <Phantom_Hoover> which exams
11:49:28 <olsner> A-levels, he already said that
11:49:41 <Phantom_Hoover> which two a-levels!
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11:58:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the last two
11:58:25 <Phantom_Hoover> oh
11:58:42 <oerjan> no, three!
11:58:54 <Phantom_Hoover> you can get a-levels in dance
11:58:59 <Phantom_Hoover> i'll say no more
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12:05:27 <oerjan> wrong window :(
12:07:05 <elliott> hi oerjan
12:08:03 <oerjan> <Taneb> F shall NEVER evaluate to d! <-- SORRY INCORRECT HTH
12:10:48 <oerjan> <kmc> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/19/nuke_plants_to_keep_pdp11_until_2050/ <-- for a fraction of a second i read that as php, fortunately i realized before completely panicking
12:13:50 <oerjan> that's enough logs for today
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12:25:50 <oerjan> elliott: um right, hi
12:26:05 <elliott> hi
12:26:09 <oerjan> hi
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12:29:59 <elliott> if ais523 doesn't replace the featured langauge soon I will have no choice but to admin oerjan and tell him to do it.
12:30:09 <Phantom_Hoover> admin me
12:30:22 <ais523> elliott: but I'm concentrating on other things
12:30:58 <elliott> ais523: tell that to oerjan!!
12:31:32 <oerjan> but i have a back ache :(
12:31:57 <oerjan> probably shouldn't be on the computer at all
12:38:10 <elliott> make an esolang based on back ache, hth
12:41:17 <oerjan> a dialect of lifescript, i take
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12:57:47 <oerjan> Taneb: do _you_ understand today's lightning made of owls? :/
12:58:24 <Taneb> No, I do not
12:58:53 <oerjan> good, good
13:03:35 <nooodl> how's the hexham weather
13:03:44 <Taneb> Warnm
13:05:03 <elliott> its very warnm in hexham right now yes
13:05:12 <oerjan> is that like the temperature of doom
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13:13:29 <Taneb> notice how Warnm backwards is mnraW
13:13:40 <Taneb> Which is like MN raw
13:13:47 <Taneb> What is MN? Nobody knows
13:13:48 <elliott> as raw as minnesota
13:14:04 <Taneb> What is MN? elliott knows
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13:15:03 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott
13:15:07 <Phantom_Hoover> buy system shock 2
13:15:11 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm not playing it alone
13:16:00 <elliott> iaaven't even played system shock 1
13:16:02 <elliott> except maybe i did once
13:16:15 <elliott> or maybe it was 2
13:16:18 <Phantom_Hoover> you don't need to play system shock 1
13:16:29 <Phantom_Hoover> aiui it has aged awfully
13:16:54 <elliott> sort of like you
13:17:13 <Phantom_Hoover> sort of like your mum
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13:35:55 <nooodl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_nonsense cute
13:37:41 * oerjan chases nooodl through a diagram with the swatter -----###
13:37:52 <elliott> oerjan: the daily commute?
13:38:11 <nooodl> elliott :')
13:38:14 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
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15:56:30 <oklopol> so apparently all the results in the DLP paper rely on heuristics
15:57:13 <Bike> "People talk as they ride bicycles - at a rush - without pausing to consider their surroundings."
16:02:45 <Bike> http://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/portable-devices/echolocation-by-smartphone-possible wow
16:11:40 -!- oerjan has joined.
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16:12:28 <oerjan> oklopol: what's DLP?
16:12:57 <oklopol> discrete logarithm problem
16:13:07 <oerjan> aha
16:13:33 <Bike> yeah, the paper shachaf and kmc were talking about is heuristastic.
16:14:04 <oerjan> somehow i've forgot to check the box to reconnect the wireless automatically, i hope this will improve things
16:14:25 <oerjan> (not doing it, that is)
16:14:52 <olsner> not forgetting, or not checking the box?
16:16:15 <oerjan> dammit
16:16:50 * oerjan buries olsner under an avalanche of iterated negations
16:17:15 <olsner> nooooooooooo
16:26:06 <oerjan> exactly!
16:26:33 <oerjan> now pizza
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18:57:48 <hiato> Hi guys :)
18:58:09 <elliott> hi
18:58:14 <kmc> `welcome hiato
18:58:17 <HackEgo> hiato: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:58:38 <elliott> kmc: why you gotta use the only boring welcome
18:58:40 <elliott> `relcome hiato
18:58:43 <HackEgo> hiato: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:58:53 <hiato> heh, hey elliott
18:59:23 <hiato> Wow, so I haven't been here for a very, very long time.
18:59:32 <hiato> It was making me sad, really.
18:59:39 <elliott> i remember you!!
18:59:44 * hiato thinks u gaiz are the best
18:59:48 <quintopia> hiato's hiatus
18:59:51 <hiato> elliott: ;)
19:00:03 <hiato> quintopia: :P
19:00:23 <hiato> Yep, I was here when I was a young one, which would have made elliott a toddler practically
19:00:31 <hiato> well, it's all relative I suppose
19:00:34 <ais523> re-welcome hiato!
19:00:46 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't remember hiato
19:00:56 <elliott> now i am an old man
19:00:59 <hiato> ais523: Heh, why thank you :) I still remember that time you helped me with my silly maths homework
19:01:16 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: oh, but I remember you <creepy laugh>
19:01:41 <olsner> I don't remember
19:02:01 <hiato> olsner: I'm not *that* memorable.
19:02:27 <olsner> that's ok, not everyone has to be memorable
19:02:32 <quintopia> wb ais523
19:02:39 <elliott> i remember you because you used fucking delphi or whatever
19:02:43 <hiato> I think I was here mostly around 2007/8 or so
19:02:44 <elliott> like some kind of alien
19:02:55 <elliott> ok i remember you for other reasons too
19:02:58 <elliott> but that's like #1 or #2
19:03:01 <hiato> elliott: haha, yeah, that was all I knew at that stage.
19:03:03 <olsner> `quote hiato
19:03:04 <Bike> "also used snobol"
19:03:05 <HackEgo> No output.
19:03:05 <ais523> I remember hiato for the electricity rationing
19:03:15 <ais523> I hope that's got better, at least
19:03:26 <elliott> i remember that too
19:03:51 <hiato> ais523: oh, wow, I don't even remember telling you about it. Well, nope, not really. At least, it's winter now and there hasn't been one for some time, but I suppose it was at it's worst back then
19:03:52 <Phantom_Hoover> where's hiato from?
19:03:55 <Phantom_Hoover> .za?
19:03:57 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: South Africa
19:04:01 <Phantom_Hoover> ahhhh
19:04:51 <hiato> I guess it would be rather silly of me to ask, but I'll try anyway: what's been happening?
19:05:07 <ais523> not a lot, sadly, esolang development's been kind-of slow
19:05:13 <Bike> the channel got interviewed by a WSJ reporter for some reason
19:05:17 <ais523> yeah, that was fun
19:05:17 <nooodl> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etbcKWEKnvg wow good
19:05:20 <elliott> i took over the world and a guy from the wall street journal interviewed cpressey over irc and made hexham jokes
19:05:22 <hiato> I checked back on the wiki recently and it's exploded in size since I remember it
19:05:24 <ais523> also we grouped together to make Radixal!!!!
19:05:28 <elliott> and additionally someone else came here from hexham, completely randomly
19:05:32 <ais523> elliott: what, seriously?
19:05:41 <elliott> ais523: what the fuck
19:05:42 <elliott> how many times
19:05:43 <hiato> nice, that's pretty awesome! Gar, I missed a channel interview
19:05:46 <elliott> have you forgotten that taneb is from hexham
19:05:53 <elliott> it's not even funny any more
19:05:53 <ais523> elliott: no, I thought you meant someone beyond taneb
19:05:55 <elliott> oh
19:05:57 <elliott> no i meant taneb
19:06:13 <elliott> maybe hiato wasn't there for the "hexham craze"
19:06:17 <nooodl> were "hexham jokes" even a thing before taneb turned out to also be yeah
19:06:27 <hiato> elliott: hexham craze?
19:06:30 <ais523> well when I first knew elliott he didn't even live in hexham
19:06:31 <Taneb> `pastelogs Hexham
19:06:37 <ais523> internet-knew
19:06:39 <olsner> oh, I thought we already had a third hexham
19:06:42 <ais523> so obviously there couldn't be hexham jokes then
19:06:44 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5982
19:06:48 <olsner> not sure who, but someone
19:06:53 <Bike> is "hexham" what you call a person from hexham.
19:06:54 <hiato> ais523: so haha, I though you were excited about radixal. It turns out the !!! is part of the name.
19:06:55 <Bike> that's p. good
19:06:55 <Phantom_Hoover> when was The Hexham Epiphany again
19:07:04 <ais523> hiato: four exclamation marks
19:07:11 <ais523> we chose that because we thought three was the highest justifiable value
19:07:17 <hiato> whoops, wouldn't want to understate it
19:07:18 <Bike> it's just that radix
19:07:35 <elliott> ais523: er
19:07:37 <Phantom_Hoover> ah, 2011-07-16
19:07:40 <elliott> you first knew me in 2007 right
19:07:42 <elliott> I was in hexham then
19:07:46 <ais523> elliott: not sure
19:07:51 <elliott> I was in hexham in 2004
19:08:00 <hiato> elliott: yeah, you were going to move iirc
19:08:03 <ais523> I seem to remember you living in a hamlet near hexham with a name nobody could remember
19:08:04 <elliott> hiato: I live in hexham which is a pretty small rural down (pop. like 11k)
19:08:13 <Phantom_Hoover> hiato, http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-07-16#160048PhantomHoover
19:08:20 <Phantom_Hoover> ignore elliott, this is a much funnier way to find out
19:08:24 <Bike> hexham lite
19:08:40 <elliott> context for Phantom_Hoover's link: he previously mentioned living in northumberland
19:08:43 <elliott> (hexham is in northumberland)
19:08:50 <elliott> and then oerjan joked that taneb would turn out to be my next-door neighbour.
19:08:57 <elliott> (note: northumberland is a lot bigger than hexham)
19:09:13 <nooodl> why was taneb's line a clue for ph to jump to that conclusion though
19:09:31 <Bike> "he's this kid who refused to meet me a few weeks ago" the plot thickens
19:09:37 <nooodl> was it just the "my town"
19:09:39 <ais523> nooodl: because elliott "famously" came from hexham
19:09:45 <Phantom_Hoover> nooodl, because he made it clear he lived in a tiny shithole of a town
19:09:50 <Phantom_Hoover> in northumberland
19:09:53 <hiato> right, ok, reading now
19:09:54 <nooodl> hmm yeah
19:09:55 <elliott> nooodl: divine inspiration
19:09:55 <Phantom_Hoover> hexham fits all these criteria
19:10:10 <Taneb> Hexham is awesome though
19:10:13 <Taneb> We've got a field
19:10:16 <elliott> pretty sure jesus just came down from the heavens and pushed the knowledge into Phantom_Hoover's head
19:10:20 <Bike> i fucking love fields
19:10:22 <Phantom_Hoover> and an abbey!
19:10:26 <Phantom_Hoover> don't forget your abbety
19:10:28 <Phantom_Hoover> *abbey
19:10:36 <Bike> hey that reminds me of A Thing
19:10:53 <Bike> the school i'm enrolled in it super hilly, to the extent that there's a place called Johnson Flats, which is not flat and is on a hill
19:11:04 <Bike> positively british naming sense, i must say
19:11:15 <nooodl> 16:09:37: -!- monqy has joined #esoteric.
19:11:18 <ais523> Birmingham has lots and lots of little hills
19:11:19 <nooodl> this log is gonna get good
19:11:24 <ais523> to the extent that horizontal flat land is rare
19:11:38 <ais523> although there are few hills that impress people who come from, say, Sheffield
19:11:59 <ais523> my favourite example: there's a car park that you can enter at ground level, go up 8 floors, and come out at ground level
19:12:08 <Bike> sweet
19:12:10 <Phantom_Hoover> edinburgh has a bunch of hills
19:12:34 <elliott> nooodl: no it gets bad shortly afterwards
19:12:36 <Phantom_Hoover> there's a wp article on "the seven hills of edinburgh" which lists a bunch of sets of seven hills people call "the seven hills of edinburgh"
19:12:37 <Phantom_Hoover> it's great
19:12:38 <elliott> because cheater starts talking
19:12:43 <nooodl> "16:18:15: <oklofok> that proves nothing, you could've edited every school's wp page at that time."
19:12:43 <Taneb> I forgot my user page redirects to High Middle Ages
19:12:44 <hiato> Haha, ok, so that is hilarious! :D Why would oklopol give Phantom_Hoover such a hard time about this?
19:12:47 <nooodl> oklopol...
19:12:58 <Taneb> As in, I can't remember it ever having redirected there
19:13:05 <elliott> wasn't it taneb who was given a hard time...
19:13:05 <Taneb> Why would I do that
19:13:17 <hiato> elliott: yes, by oklopol ?
19:13:30 <elliott> ok but you said Phantom_Hoover!!
19:13:37 <hiato> elliott: whoops, yes, Taneb
19:13:49 <nooodl> <Taneb> My next door neighbours are Mr Snowdon and the Bradshaws!
19:13:58 <Taneb> They still are
19:14:19 <Phantom_Hoover> huh, oko was explaining path-connectedness to me?
19:14:33 <elliott> oh wait
19:14:43 <elliott> oerjan made the neighbour prediction before taneb said he lived in northumberland
19:15:12 <olsner> I think tswett is the one I keep expecting to live in hexham but never does
19:15:26 <Phantom_Hoover> he lives in australia you idiot
19:15:31 <Taneb> Doesn't tswett live in Finland/Australia/Antarctica
19:15:32 <hiato> <Taneb> I cannot think of a way to prove that I am in Hexham -- this conversation is incredible
19:16:25 <hiato> Taneb: wow, you really wanted to prove this
19:16:46 <Phantom_Hoover> i also like how the discussion of topological connectedness is interposed with iti saying some shit about vectors
19:17:16 <Bike> I found list of spells of D&D game including "Explosive Familiar" it makes the caster's familiar explosive, and "Feign Invisibility" which causes others to believe the caster is invisible even though they can clearly see the caster, they must think they can see him somehow even if he is invisible.
19:17:26 <elliott> are you zzo38
19:17:37 <Bike> i just saw that and thought it was funny.
19:17:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, it makes them think they can see through invisibility spells
19:17:45 <Phantom_Hoover> duh
19:17:52 <ais523> elliott: it's a literal quote from zzo38
19:17:54 <Phantom_Hoover> could be useful
19:18:05 <nooodl> <elliott> who's itidus20 btw
19:18:07 <nooodl> oh my god this was
19:18:12 <ais523> `? itidus20
19:18:14 <HackEgo> itidus20's entry has been censored.
19:18:15 <nooodl> the same day??
19:18:19 <elliott> 18:09:09: <Taneb> I will stand next to the abbey in site of the Hexham Courant Webcam for a while with a sign saying "I AM TANEB"
19:18:20 <Phantom_Hoover> `? itidus21
19:18:21 <Phantom_Hoover> `? itidus22
19:18:22 <HackEgo> itidus21 just made some instant coffee.
19:18:22 <elliott> 18:09:12: <Taneb> But not today
19:18:23 <elliott> Taneb: you still have to do this
19:18:23 <HackEgo> itidus22? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:18:32 <Phantom_Hoover> `? itidus19
19:18:34 <HackEgo> itidus19 disappeared into a space-time anomaly
19:18:44 <Taneb> elliott, I know
19:18:46 <ais523> "some day, maybe next Friday"
19:18:58 <Phantom_Hoover> hiato, are you up to speed on the channel in-jokes yet
19:19:03 <olsner> elliott: he'll show up at your house with a sign that says "I AM TANEB AND I LUV U"
19:19:08 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: I'm getting there :P
19:19:17 <elliott> i luv u 2, Taneb
19:19:17 * ais523 keeps quiet
19:19:32 <elliott> speaking of channel in-jokes
19:19:33 <elliott> ais523: op me
19:19:36 <ais523> bleh, now I'm going to have to ask zzo38 what overmate is
19:19:39 <ais523> elliott: I did
19:19:51 <elliott> i mean the other kind of op me
19:20:37 <olsner> which kind of op me is that?
19:20:46 <elliott> the one where you do it via /msg chanserv access!
19:20:53 <nooodl> 22:07:05: <Taneb> I got famous last year for wearing a dressing gown and joining a political organization
19:21:03 <nooodl> this log is so good
19:21:04 <Taneb> nooodl, that is a true story
19:21:15 <Taneb> Except it is no longer last year
19:21:19 <Taneb> It is like ages ago
19:21:20 <olsner> famous enough for elliott to see it and provide independent confirmation of it?
19:21:23 <hiato> Taneb: you are an endless source of amazing quotes
19:21:32 <Taneb> Yup
19:21:55 <Phantom_Hoover> fuck you Taneb
19:22:02 <Phantom_Hoover> my claim to fame is wounding a man with a spoon
19:22:22 <olsner> you did?
19:22:29 <ais523> hiato: I have to be careful when reading the entire quotes database
19:22:35 <ais523> sometimes I can't breathe I laugh so much
19:22:36 <ais523> anyway
19:22:39 <ais523> `pastequotes Taneb
19:22:45 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17667
19:22:45 <ais523> you can do that for anyone in here :)
19:23:00 <hiato> `pastequotes hiato
19:23:06 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27697
19:23:19 <hiato> yeah, I think that functionality was implemented sometime after me
19:23:22 <hiato> oh, wait
19:23:34 <ais523> yeah, there aren't any hiato quotes in the list
19:23:35 <hiato> yeah, it's blank
19:23:37 <ais523> because nobody's added any
19:23:54 <ais523> oh, Taneb used to be called Ngevd
19:24:14 <hiato> yeah, I don't recall this being a feature. In any event, I will continue to read Taneb quotes and that log because you sir, are amazing
19:24:25 <Taneb> I'm not that great
19:24:25 <hiato> I remember Ngevd, yeah, I think.
19:24:40 <nooodl> i keep forgetting when i joined #esoteric
19:24:40 <Taneb> `? ngevd
19:24:42 <nooodl> (i'm looking it up)
19:24:49 <HackEgo> 6TxB%JE"d*@_&k@KC\<
19:24:53 <hiato> Taneb: as ais523 described, I had to literally stop reading to allow for breathing
19:24:55 <elliott> `seen hiato
19:24:56 <elliott> oh wait
19:24:57 <elliott> that wont work
19:24:59 <HackEgo> 2013-06-19 19:24:53: <hiato> Taneb: as ais523 described, I had to literally stop reading to allow for breathing
19:25:00 <elliott> fr pastseen
19:25:33 <nooodl> oh wow cool
19:25:35 <nooodl> 2012-10-21.txt:02:40:28: <elliott> <ion> nooodl: 1, 1, …? Everyone knows the Fibonacci sequence begins with 89, -55.
19:25:36 <nooodl> 2012-10-31.txt:00:36:49: -!- nooodl has joined #esoteric.
19:25:51 <Taneb> `pastequotes Ngevd
19:25:57 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.30517
19:26:33 <Taneb> We haven't told hiato about Facekicker
19:26:57 <hiato> please, I don't know that I can handle more hilarious logs this evening
19:27:03 -!- sprocklem has joined.
19:27:19 <elliott> @time hiato
19:27:20 <lambdabot> Local time for hiato is Wed Jun 19 21:22:20 2013
19:27:29 <elliott> is south africa really utc+1
19:27:30 <elliott> weiiiird
19:27:34 <elliott> or uh maybe it's bst
19:27:36 <elliott> so that would be utc+2
19:27:46 <hiato> elliott: yeah, GMT+2
19:28:00 <olsner> shouldn't you be on winter time/standard time/non-summer time now though?
19:28:02 <Taneb> elliott, should we tell hiato about Facekicker
19:28:20 <elliott> Taneb: that is up to you
19:28:31 <elliott> olsner: it's june!
19:28:32 <hiato> olsner: in this country, the government saves energy by randomly shutting off power to suburbs. No need for pesky daylight savings.
19:28:34 <Taneb> But I can't tell it in a funny way!
19:28:40 <olsner> hiato: aah, clever
19:28:51 <olsner> sounds more reliably energy saving too
19:29:07 <hiato> olsner: 100% energy saved on grids, gauranteed!
19:29:18 <elliott> south africa sounds like a weird place
19:29:28 <Taneb> hiato, basically, for a few hours I thought elliott kicked one of my friends in the face but it turned out to be a different Elliott Hird
19:29:32 <hiato> elliott: you should see what it /looks/ like then
19:29:41 <hiato> Taneb: lolwut
19:29:42 <olsner> they say daylight savings time saves like 1% of power, but I think that was before they invented air conditioning
19:30:03 <hiato> Taneb: How many Elliotts are there in Hexham?
19:30:08 <elliott> ais523: i see how it is
19:30:12 <Taneb> hiato, I can think of three
19:30:18 <hiato> Taneb: haha, wow
19:30:31 <ais523> elliott: why would it be summertime in winter?
19:30:32 <Taneb> Nobody knows what happened to Facekicker for the past 8 years, though
19:30:55 <Taneb> hiato, Hexham's got almost 12000 people. That's like 0.025%
19:30:57 <hiato> Taneb: also, what on earth leads someone to kick someone else in the face? Was the guy kicking really flexible, or suffering giantism?
19:31:00 <ais523> actually, "it turned out to be a different Elliott Hird" is almost as weird as the multiple-hexhamites thing
19:31:06 <Taneb> hiato, he was standing on a table
19:31:15 <hiato> Taneb: ah, makes more sense now
19:31:19 <kmc> i've never even hird of the surname "hird" before this channel
19:31:23 <elliott> ais523: i'm still dubious
19:31:29 <elliott> i seriously doubt there are other elliott hirds
19:31:33 <elliott> probably it was actually me
19:31:34 <hiato> this channel is home to the most ridiculous Hexham-centred stories I have ever heard
19:31:37 <hiato> *hird
19:31:40 <Taneb> One of my friends went to first school with someone called Elliott Hird
19:32:07 <Taneb> In a small village close to Hexham but closer to Prudhoe
19:32:13 <ais523> hiato: well hexham-centered stories aren't very common
19:32:19 <hiato> ais523: oh, wait, I completely missed the "different"
19:32:20 <quintopia> i think every man in hexham that none of us has met yet is called elliott hird
19:32:24 <hiato> wow, ok, now this story is ridiculous
19:32:33 <hiato> I didn't realise elliott 's surname was also Hird
19:33:08 <Phantom_Hoover> it's not even like it's that common a name
19:33:12 <nooodl> elliott: are you suuuure you never kicked anyone in the face
19:33:28 <Phantom_Hoover> if you google elliott hird it's a mix of elliott and a kitchen planner
19:33:29 <elliott> nooodl: i probably have
19:33:31 <nooodl> P.S. maybe you're related and it's just another elliott in the Hird family
19:33:38 <hiato> (and there I was thinking facekicker would be some sort of in joke about a facebook derivative or some such)
19:33:42 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, idk, kicking people in the face is q. hard
19:33:50 <elliott> i think i got kicked in the face once
19:34:05 <ais523> what if the victim is lying down?
19:34:10 <elliott> well
19:34:13 <elliott> actually i don't remember
19:34:17 <nooodl> elliott: you deserved it for kicking someone in the face though
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19:34:18 <Taneb> Facekicker was standing on a table
19:34:18 <elliott> i think that's why one of my teeth is chipped at least
19:34:27 <elliott> no wait
19:34:33 <elliott> that one was from walking into the glass
19:34:34 <olsner> maybe the story is the wrong way around and Taneb's friend kicked elliott
19:34:43 <hiato> Taneb: Facekicker <---> Kingslayer. Any connection in naming scheme?
19:34:52 <elliott> oh i mixed up getting a hole in my head with chipping my tooth i think
19:34:53 <Phantom_Hoover> yes
19:35:02 <Phantom_Hoover> in that they both consist of a thing and then what they did to that thing
19:35:12 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: why thank you
19:36:28 <nooodl> elliott: yikes are you even still alive
19:36:56 <Phantom_Hoover> how did you get a hole in your head
19:37:03 <Phantom_Hoover> p. sure you can't get that from kicking
19:37:13 <elliott> nooodl: no
19:37:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i fell on some toy thing when i was young
19:37:27 <elliott> when i say hole i mean
19:37:28 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, trepanation
19:37:32 <elliott> it was incredibly tiny
19:37:35 <ion> I have a number of holes in my head.
19:37:37 <elliott> all i know is they put some kind of glue thing on it
19:37:37 <Phantom_Hoover> was this toy a big metal spike
19:37:40 <elliott> and then it repaired itself
19:37:41 <hiato> ais523: so radixal!!!! looks kinda cool, nice job
19:37:50 <nooodl> this reminds me of a good childhood story when i was like 11
19:37:55 <ais523> hiato: thanks
19:37:59 <Taneb> elliott, I had something similar, but it was a bridge
19:38:00 <nooodl> and i was really pissed about something, i don't remember what it was
19:38:08 <nooodl> and i decided to solve my anger issues by kicking something
19:38:17 <nooodl> but the closest thing was a stone wall
19:38:22 <Phantom_Hoover> i once pushed my sister into a drawer or something by accident
19:38:33 <Phantom_Hoover> and then my mum had to staple her head back together
19:38:46 <Phantom_Hoover> hmm, i may be making myself sound like a psychopath here
19:38:50 <nooodl> Phantom_Hoover: yes :(
19:38:59 <nooodl> me too though
19:39:24 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, for at least two generations in my family, the elder brother has pushed the second brother off a bed, causing a permanent scar
19:39:30 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: but at least you're not the one who stapled your sister's head?
19:39:33 <nooodl> anyway it's more embarrassing/haunting than it sounds; why did i kick a fucking wall? what was wrong with me
19:39:43 <Phantom_Hoover> well she used a medical stapler
19:40:24 <nooodl> "medical staplers" look very badass thanks google
19:40:28 <ion> When you injure someone with an object, you can always say “well, it was a medical $foo”
19:40:39 <Taneb> What's that song that goes "Doo, dee, do-doo; Doo, dee, do-da"?
19:40:57 <ion> taneb: Meshuggah – Bleed
19:41:06 <Taneb> Thanks
19:42:12 <ion> Medical stapler http://youtu.be/baNBRs_Wafs
19:42:20 <ion> while drunk
19:42:58 <ion> “Haiers Medical-Circular Stapler For Rectal Prolapse And Hemorrhoids.wmv” /me refrains from clicking
19:43:27 <olsner> good choice
19:44:21 <ion> Yes, i’m pretty happy about it.
19:50:34 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_).
20:10:37 <oklopol> trrndn trrndn trrndn trrndn trrndn trrndn trrndn trrndn trrndn trrndn trrndn
20:12:15 <tswett> Taneb: I do live in F/A/A, yes.
20:12:26 <Taneb> Totally called it
20:13:36 <oklopol> <zzo38> Once I start a business I might release some information on internet, such as telephone
20:13:44 <oklopol> is this business up and running?
20:13:50 <oklopol> oh he's not here.
20:14:58 -!- Tritonio has joined.
20:15:47 <Taneb> `welcome Tritonio
20:15:49 <HackEgo> Tritonio: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:16:15 <kmc> i want to know about zzo38's business as well
20:16:27 <Bike> zzology
20:17:14 <ais523> kmc: given that it's zzo38, that line does not imply that he's planning to start a business
20:17:19 <ais523> just that, if he did, that's what he might do afterwars
20:17:22 <ais523> *afterwards
20:17:28 <kmc> true
20:21:56 <ais523> `pastequotes kmc
20:22:02 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.8517
20:22:15 <Bike> cocks
20:22:51 <kmc> always with the cocks
20:23:14 <olsner> oh, kmc was well quoted
20:23:33 <shachaf> i thought you couldn't have those in (sub)urban areas
20:24:44 <kmc> Gregoooooooor
20:24:47 <kmc> fix your encoding header
20:25:19 <Bike> the pokémon theme
20:25:42 <ais523> kmc: well IRC doesn't have a sane encoding
20:25:51 <kmc> ok but this channel uses UTF-8 by convention
20:25:56 <ais523> the default is "UTF-8 if the line happens to be UTF-8, otherwise Latin-1"
20:26:09 <shachaf> but that's a bad default
20:26:23 <shachaf> utf-8 is the good default
20:26:27 <coppro> Bike: was that UTF-8 or Latin-1?
20:26:32 <elliott> op campaign: I would kick anyone who didn't use utf-8 except oklopol
20:26:41 <kmc> there is no code but unicode and utf-8 is its transport
20:26:41 <FreeFull> UTF-8 is good
20:26:47 <FreeFull>
20:26:55 <oklopol> i still don't know what i use
20:27:02 <Bike> ♫ domain name system ♫
20:27:11 <coppro> ♫
20:27:12 <kmc> `run echo é | iconv -t iso8859-1
20:27:14 <HackEgo>
20:27:24 <coppro> kmc: ok good I'm in utf-8
20:27:27 <oklopol> i changed my irc client because i just couldn't get mirc to work, but i doubt i'm using utf8 now either
20:27:29 <FreeFull>
20:27:33 <FreeFull> That's what I saw
20:27:37 <kmc> Unterbrechung während des Betriebssystemaufrufs
20:27:37 <FreeFull> A question thing
20:27:37 <oklopol> to work = to use utf8
20:27:50 <FreeFull> Tmux doesn't do iso8859-1
20:28:00 <shachaf> oklopol: so far you are, but only the lowest 128 codepoints hth
20:28:03 <Bike> "wait isn't kmc the guy who runs that one pizza shop and night club and used to be a programmer"
20:28:13 <oklopol> joo jöö
20:28:20 <kmc> "Betriebssystemaufrufs" is kind of an awesome word for "syscall"
20:28:28 <kmc> but i bet actual german haxors just say "die Syscall"
20:28:35 <Fiora> German has wonderful words
20:29:08 <Fiora> Rindfleischetikettierungsuberwachungsaufgabenubertragungsgesetz!
20:30:12 <Bike> gesundheit
20:31:27 <oklopol> <oklofok> "<itidus20> on a related idea. i had this idea of a game of life sort of thing which makes connected clusters of dots have a mass and hence a gravity and to affect each other" <<< can i steal this idea and try to do something cool with it next week?
20:31:34 <kmc> beef something
20:31:40 <oklopol> oh that's where that idea came from
20:31:45 <kmc> Donaudampfschifffahrtselektrizitätenhauptbetriebswerkbauunterbeamtengesellschaft
20:31:56 <Bike> `pastequotes bike
20:32:00 <oklopol> we almost wrote an article on that :P
20:32:02 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28416
20:32:02 <Bike> wanna see if the encoding fixed on this somehow.
20:32:09 <Bike> nnnnnope
20:32:44 <Bike> why does ^B make it download
20:33:05 <oklopol> (we made a CA where there's a special state * such that if there are finitely many * then they group together)
20:33:26 <ais523> oklopol: hmm, interesting
20:33:28 <ais523> that's not really a CA any more
20:33:33 <ais523> it's definitely some sort of automaton, though
20:33:49 <oklopol> my definition of a CA is that it's shift-commuting and continuous
20:34:03 <oklopol> this is a property that a CA may or may not have
20:34:06 <oklopol> not a new definition
20:34:38 <oklopol> and we found a CA with such a property, a CA such that one of the states has this curious property
20:34:44 <ais523> `pastequotes Bike
20:34:49 <quintopia> is it simple?
20:34:50 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5095
20:34:54 <quintopia> what is the rule?
20:34:59 <kmc> which was the multiocular O of countries?
20:35:01 <ais523> oklopol: oh, right
20:35:04 <kmc> oh, liechtenstein
20:35:07 <oklopol> it's very simple if the configuration is 0-finite
20:35:10 <ais523> for some reason I thought you had a CA where if you had consecutive * on the tape
20:35:16 <oklopol> (has a finite amount of non-0 cells)
20:35:18 <ais523> some of them just vanished, shrinking the tape to match
20:35:55 <oklopol> you can have states 0, 1 and *, and 1's spread left and down, forming a quarterplane full of 1s, and the *s move northeast on it
20:36:01 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: too cold to function).
20:36:06 <oklopol> they reach the northeast corner and then they are grouped
20:36:21 <ais523> oh, 2-D CA?
20:36:27 <ais523> I assume 1D unless someone states otherwise
20:36:34 <oklopol> but this can be cheated to not work if there's an infinite amount of 1
20:36:35 <oklopol> oh sorry
20:36:47 <oklopol> well it's strictly easier in 1d
20:36:53 <quintopia> ais523: i assume the opposite
20:36:54 <ais523> but that works much the same in any number of dimensions
20:37:01 <ais523> quintopia: I even made a 1D Sokoban
20:37:16 <oklopol> most of our stuff is in 1d, but this one was kind of boring in 1d
20:37:19 <ais523> basically because the Enigma advertised them as an April Fool's joke, so I thought I'd make one
20:37:20 <quintopia> ais523: sounds really easy
20:37:25 <ais523> quintopia: well it had a bunch of teleporters
20:37:37 <oklopol> dunno if it's very interesting in 2d either, and i don't think we'll even try to publish it
20:37:37 <ais523> that opened and closed on a timer so you could choose not to use them if you wanted to
20:38:02 <quintopia> oh
20:38:09 <quintopia> that makes it interesting
20:38:40 <Taneb> Hmm
20:39:22 <quintopia> oklopol: what happens to the * that are northeast of all 1s?
20:39:37 <oklopol> oh 1s start spreading from them
20:39:41 <Taneb> What would a CA look like that was on Sierpinski carpet
20:39:45 <Taneb> Would that even work
20:39:53 <Taneb> s/carpet/triangle/
20:40:08 <quintopia> oh
20:40:31 <ais523> Taneb: those are some of the most common patterns for random CAs to generate, beyond the boring ones
20:40:45 <Taneb> ais523, I mean on one
20:40:46 <elliott> you can get sierpinski in life easily
20:40:51 <Taneb> Instead of on a plane or line
20:41:57 <oklopol> "<oklofok> there's a local rule that tells you what changes are legal. now, to every sequence s in {"E", "U"}^N partitions S^Z we get a subset of points from which the game goes on forever, say for EUEUEUEU... this means from x, for some choice of new cell values by E, for any choice of any cell by U, for some choice of..."
20:41:57 <oklopol> erm
20:42:06 <oklopol> this sounds like our newest article
20:42:52 <oklopol> is this an actual log for one day of ircing or is this a collection of stuff that SHAPED MY LIFE
20:43:34 <oklopol> it actually turned out that the sequence where the game goes on forever is itself a sofic shift if you start with one
20:43:37 <ais523> `addquote <oklopol> is this an actual log for one day of ircing or is this a collection of stuff that SHAPED MY LIFE
20:43:42 <HackEgo> 1055) <oklopol> is this an actual log for one day of ircing or is this a collection of stuff that SHAPED MY LIFE
20:43:45 <oklopol> which is cool
20:43:50 <oklopol> if you care about sofic shifts
20:44:05 <elliott> great to find out that oklopol is sad enough that his entire life is contained in statements about cellular automata from one single day!!!!
20:44:13 <elliott> one day you'll run out of stuff from that log
20:44:16 <elliott> and you'll have no ideas ever again
20:44:27 <oklopol> well i also started smoking that day
20:46:44 <olsner> do you still smoke? I hear that stuff's bad for you
20:47:21 <oklopol> sometimes
20:47:22 <Bike> what do you smoke
20:47:31 <oklopol> well you know tobacco
20:50:37 <ais523> `pastequotes oklopol
20:50:43 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.10951
20:51:07 <oklopol> lol suddenly i start proving theorems of basic topology
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20:52:09 <oklopol> <elliott> clue is a language for beauty, not usefulness <elliott> or ability to run at all <oklopol> ability to run at all is not even close to a design goal, no
20:52:14 <oklopol> i should make a better clue
20:52:15 <oklopol> mmmm clue
20:54:06 <oklopol> <oerjan> <oklofok> (for instance all metric spaces are hausdorff and all bounded metric spaces are compact) <-- BZZZT WRONG. *complete, totally bounded
20:54:10 <oklopol> haha ownd
20:56:59 <oklopol> finally finished
21:00:55 <`^_^v> which of these textbooks should i read next? Types and Programming Languages, Syntax and Semantics of Programming Languages, An Introduction to Database Systems, AI: A Modern Approach, Introduction to Automata Theory, Basic Category Theory for Computer Scientists, Virtual Machines
21:01:15 <Bike> three men in a boat
21:01:30 <elliott> `pastelogs `^_^v
21:01:34 <shachaf> TaPL and Programming Languages
21:01:35 <kmc> of those i've only read TaPL but it's good so, TaPL
21:01:42 <Taneb> star smashers of the galaxy rangers
21:01:45 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17514
21:02:57 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:12:41 <elliott> `pastelogs \`\^\_\`\v
21:12:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29447
21:13:42 <`^_^v> dont escape me bro
21:14:25 <elliott> `pastelogs [`]\^[_]\^[v]
21:14:39 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.6438
21:15:12 <elliott> wow it worked
21:15:53 <nooodl> did Phantom_Hoover awaken `^_^v
21:24:38 <elliott> http://www.theonion.com/articles/wikipedia-users-surprised-nobodys-made-page-for-jo,31815/
21:27:24 <Phantom_Hoover> yo
21:27:48 <Phantom_Hoover> what the FUCK Gregor doesn't have VOICE
21:28:23 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Gregor.
21:47:15 <ais523> that wasn't me that time
21:47:20 <ais523> I think I know woh it was though
21:47:22 <ais523> *who
21:47:33 <ais523> hmm… I have a sequence that starts 1, 3, 6, and the next element is at least 10
21:47:53 <ais523> however it isn't the triangular numbers, because I have a lower bound on it that's O(2^(n/2))
21:56:21 <Phantom_Hoover> @oeis 1 3 6
21:56:27 <Phantom_Hoover> wait
21:56:30 <lambdabot> Triangular numbers: a(n) = C(n+1,2) = n(n+1)/2 = 0+1+2+...+n.[0,1,3,6,10,15,...
21:56:55 <Bike> good effort.
21:57:18 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, http://oeis.org/A006128?
21:57:28 <Phantom_Hoover> http://oeis.org/A003945?
21:57:39 <Phantom_Hoover> http://oeis.org/A005043?
21:57:42 <Bike> that first one sure doesn't look exponential.
21:57:52 <Phantom_Hoover> mm
21:58:04 <Phantom_Hoover> surely someone's written a better oeis search tool by now
21:58:07 <ais523> oh, I have a lower bound of 20 on the fifth element too
21:58:28 <ais523> also, it's bounded above by 2^n-1, and by 2^n-2 for all the elements but the first two
21:59:12 <ais523> so it's not 5043, that breaks the upper bound
22:02:25 <ais523> it's quite an annoying problem to determine elements, I was thinking about it in my head for hours last night
22:02:36 <ais523> perhaps I should write a computer program to brute-force the first few elements
22:02:46 <Bike> so
22:02:47 <Bike> what is it
22:03:01 <ais523> so basically, you want to construct a directed graph
22:03:10 <ais523> where each vertex has two edges going out from it
22:03:33 <ais523> and where you can get from any vertex to any other vertex, going only forwards along edges, in n steps
22:03:52 <ais523> and the question is, what's the largest number of vertices you can have in such a graph, for a given n
22:03:57 <ais523> obviously if n=0 you can only have one vertex
22:03:57 <Bike> n being a property of the graph?
22:04:03 <ais523> no, n is given
22:04:21 <ais523> and you have to find the largest graph such that you can get from any vertex to any other vertex along a path of length n
22:04:29 <ais523> where each vertex only has two edges leaving it
22:04:30 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
22:04:43 <ais523> for n=1, you can have three vertices, joined in both directions in a triangle
22:05:35 <ais523> for n=2, you have ABCADADFCFEBED = six vertices
22:05:44 <ais523> (7 can be proved impossible)
22:06:40 <ais523> for n=3, the best I've found is ABCDEAFAFJEJIDIHCHGBGF
22:06:40 <Bike> ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degree_diameter_problem ?
22:06:41 <elliott> but what about eight
22:07:00 <Bike> This doesn't mention direcctedness, though.
22:07:23 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:07:29 <ais523> elliott: well 7 being impossible doesn't imply 8 being impossible, but you can label each edge as being A or B so that one A-edge and one B-edge comes from each vertex
22:07:44 <ais523> then from any given vertex there are only 7 possible paths: (no movement), A, B, AA, AB, BA, BB
22:07:50 <ais523> the first leads to the vertex itself
22:07:54 <Bike> i like how graph theory has so many stupid words that there's a "glossary of graph theory" wikipedia article.
22:07:56 <ais523> so there can be at most 6 other vertices
22:07:59 <ais523> = 8+ is impossible
22:09:28 <Bike> i think finding wikipedia articles may be the most useful skill i have
22:09:51 <coppro> ais523: why is 7 impossible?
22:10:09 <ais523> coppro: OK, so imagine you have a solution to 7
22:10:17 <ais523> then pick any vertex, it doesn't matter which
22:10:27 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_the_largest_known_graphs_of_a_given_diameter_and_maximal_degree implies that this is a pretty hard problem
22:10:31 <ais523> your 6 other vertices are reachable via A, B, AA, AB, BA, BB
22:10:48 <ais523> now, consider the paths from A to the other vertices
22:10:50 <Bike> alt. a problem nobody cares about.
22:11:24 <ais523> obviously, AA and AB are the directly reachable vertices, so the other four (B, BA, BB, and 0) must be AAA, AAB, ABA, ABB in some order
22:11:40 <kmc> if you like graphs and numbers and shit you might like http://adventure.cueup.com ? or maybe not, whatever. it's all right
22:11:44 <ais523> without loss of generality assume that AAA = 0
22:12:18 <ais523> now AAB can't be B or you'd have AAAB = AAB, which means you can't reach all 7 vertices from AA
22:12:49 <ais523> and if ABA or ABB is B, then you're stuck with the other one being either BA or BB, which gives a similar contradiction
22:13:17 <ais523> hmm… <ais523> for n=3, the best I've found is ABCDEAFAFJEJIDIHCHGBGF ← the eodermdrome representation of graphs is surprisingly useful
22:14:28 <fizzie> How do you do arbitrary directed graphs in eodermdrome representation?
22:14:44 -!- Koen_ has joined.
22:15:28 <ais523> fizzie: you can't
22:15:29 -!- Koen_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:15:33 <fizzie> Aw.
22:15:40 <ais523> but it works for any graph where any vertex is accessible from any of the others
22:15:42 <ais523> (or any but one)
22:15:45 -!- Koen_ has joined.
22:16:18 <Bike> http://inkfish.fieldofscience.com/2013/06/moths-wait-until-bats-lock-on-then-jam.html "Moths Wait until Bats Lock On, Then Jam Their Sonar"
22:16:25 <quintopia> doesnt that mean "strongly connected" ais523
22:16:35 <Bike> i'm starting to think i could formulate a cheeky aphorism. anything humans have done, animals have evolved at some point
22:16:43 <kmc> except wheels
22:16:44 <ais523> quintopia: not sure how strongly connected works with directed graphs, but probably
22:16:54 <Bike> kmc: flagella!!
22:16:58 <kmc> kind of
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22:17:09 <quintopia> its either strongly or weakly
22:17:14 <quintopia> i forgot the difference
22:17:21 <quintopia> but its on the digraph wiki page
22:17:42 <fizzie> "A directed graph is called strongly connected if there is a path from each vertex in the graph to every other vertex." (I had it open.)
22:17:48 <fizzie> (For obvious reasons.)
22:18:08 <Fiora> what does weakly connected mean? Oh, I guess for an undirected graph, the two are the same?
22:18:09 <elliott> Bike: what abour irc
22:18:11 <elliott> t
22:18:18 <fizzie> Fiora: The underlying undirected graph is connected.
22:18:26 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:18:39 <Fiora> ahhh
22:18:57 <quintopia> and "tournament" means "the underlying undirected graph is complete" iirc
22:19:02 <Bike> elliott: mycorrhizal networks hth
22:19:30 <elliott> Bike: what about biologists
22:19:31 <kmc> yep
22:19:33 <elliott> too awful to evolve
22:19:45 <Koen_> fizzie: that's a weird definition. with the graph A -> B <- C, A and C are not connected at all and yet the graph would be weakly connected?
22:19:52 <kmc> found another mushroom in my yard
22:19:59 <Bike> was it on #esoteric
22:20:00 <elliott> #drugz
22:20:06 <fizzie> Koen_: See, there's still lines between them.
22:20:12 <Koen_> yeah ok
22:20:12 <quintopia> kmc: exactly
22:20:15 <kmc> don't know what kind it is yet
22:20:16 <quintopia> what
22:20:19 <Bike> btw my dorms apparently don't disallow growing things in your dorm
22:20:25 <kmc> but probably not drugz kind
22:20:31 <quintopia> stupid microphone button
22:20:36 <Bike> not specifically mentioned so totally safe
22:20:37 <kmc> CA has a much better climate for finding those
22:20:40 <kmc> Bike: haha
22:20:49 <Bike> i'm kind of curious what they'd do if i set up a cannabis farm or something
22:20:50 <kmc> and you're in WA so............................
22:20:51 <Koen_> but my first intuition would have been "for every unordered pair, there exists a path from one of the two vertices to the other"
22:20:52 <kmc> yup
22:20:53 <Bike> maybe if i was an agsci student
22:21:10 <Bike> "brb, hotboxing the greenhouse"
22:21:13 <elliott> Bike: do it; take photos; report back
22:21:48 <elliott> i mean what have you got to lose except your career as a biologist
22:21:56 <elliott> you can only gain!
22:22:03 <kmc> you're making the weed plants smoke weed?? that's cruel
22:22:14 <fizzie> Koen_: Apparently, according to some people[weasel words], that's what it means for a digraph to be just plain "connected".
22:22:15 <Koen_> fizzie: so with my definition A -> B -> C would be weakly connected but A -> B <- C would not
22:22:16 <quintopia> cannabisalism
22:22:27 <Bike> i wonder if i could just like, walk out into the palouse, find an empty area, plant some hemp
22:22:27 <elliott> give weed lsd #whoa #drugz
22:22:30 <fizzie> Koen_: (According to some other people, "connected" digraph just means "strongly connected".)
22:22:30 <Bike> that's how farming works, right
22:22:44 <Koen_> yeah that's what's weird with math
22:23:01 <Koen_> "integers" means "natural integers"
22:23:07 <kmc> elliott: i've heard rumors of growing psychedelic mushrooms in soil with various chemicals to get them to produce variants on psilocin / psilocybin
22:23:09 <Bike> probably some ag students are already doing this and i should just get in on their ring.
22:23:09 <Koen_> so relative integers are not integers
22:23:13 <kmc> don't think it's really a thing
22:23:16 <Koen_> weakly connected graphs are not connected graphs
22:23:18 <Bike> kmc: that sounds impossible but cool.
22:23:26 <Koen_> a blue car is not a car
22:23:36 <elliott> kmc: this is your mushrooms, this is your mushrooms on drugs, etc.
22:23:36 <Bike> and you are he as we are he and we are all together
22:23:38 <kmc> also I stopped paying attention for a while and there are all these new designer drugs I've never heard of
22:23:45 <Koen_> well, a blue ray is not a ray, ok
22:23:48 <elliott> designer drugs on the drugs catwalk
22:23:50 <kmc> 25I-NBOMe? JWH-122? LSZ? come on. kids these days.
22:23:52 <elliott> latest 2013 drug fashion
22:24:02 <elliott> jehovah-122
22:24:10 <Bike> wasn't that the plot to Robocop
22:24:20 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysergic_acid_2,4-dimethylazetidide 'distributed on blotter paper or in liquid solution under names such as "diazedine" and "λ"'
22:24:21 <elliott> how long until they find EVERY drug
22:24:30 <elliott> haha "λ"
22:24:34 <kmc> elliott: a long time, there are only a few labs working on it
22:24:36 <elliott> fuck you i'm naming my drug a greek letter
22:24:48 <Bike> do drugs support unicode, important question
22:24:55 <Bike> god, i'm going to have to do organic chemical nomenclature
22:24:58 <kmc> like I think the Nichols lab at Purdue has been involved with most new psychedelics this decade
22:25:00 <Bike> elliott you can have all my stuff when i die
22:25:02 <elliott> "so what's this new drug called" "well uh... do you know greek"
22:25:08 <kmc> and Shulgin was involved with most of the new ones in the previous few decades
22:25:09 <elliott> Bike: thx, i'll come to your funeral
22:25:13 <elliott> Bike: and throw out the biologist crap
22:25:22 <Bike> plot twist: it's all biologist crap
22:25:24 <Bike> i'm typing this on bark
22:25:39 <elliott> you can't co-opt bark, it would exist with or without filthy biologists!!
22:25:48 <elliott> kmc: phd in drugz
22:25:53 <Bike> "It was developed as a rigid analogue of LSD with the diethylamide group constrained into an azetidine ring in order to map the binding site at the 5-HT2A receptor" hm yes, those are words
22:25:56 <fizzie> `words --drugz 10
22:25:59 <HackEgo> Unknown option: drugz
22:26:03 <fizzie> Aw.
22:26:11 <elliott> disappointed the LSZ article doesn't tell you what it's like
22:26:15 <elliott> maybe erowid does
22:26:22 <Bike> wtf, why does the wikipedia article finger a specific guy
22:26:25 <fizzie> ("25I-NBOMe? JWH-122? LSZ?" <- that's exactly the sort of thing that'd come out of `words.)
22:26:26 <kmc> there are probably a lot of really interesting undiscovered ones, an example is that there's one known 5HT psychedelic that has a strong effect on perception of sound and music
22:26:31 <ais523> `words
22:26:35 <HackEgo> cylar
22:26:42 <elliott> Bike: can't trust him
22:26:44 <fizzie> Cylar is so a street name for a drug.
22:26:47 <ais523> fizzie: I disagree
22:26:54 <Bike> oh, it's the missile silo guy.
22:26:55 <ais523> actually, my first reaction was "isn't that a real word?"
22:27:00 <ais523> but I don't think it is
22:27:01 <ais523> `words
22:27:02 <elliott> man erowid is so #drugz
22:27:05 <HackEgo> jute
22:27:11 <elliott> possibly the most #drugz thing ever to exist
22:27:12 <kmc> elliott: in that it's a large website entirely about drugs? yes
22:27:15 <ais523> didn't it used to output more than one word at a time?
22:27:16 <ais523> `words
22:27:19 <fizzie> ais523: I mean the sort of thing that'd come out of `words --dataset with a proper dataset.
22:27:19 <HackEgo> sprologie
22:27:21 <Bike> hm
22:27:21 <kmc> erowid trip reports are great
22:27:22 <fizzie> `words 10
22:27:23 <elliott> kmc: see, that's pretty drugz
22:27:24 <ais523> fizzie: right
22:27:25 <HackEgo> beth cnuough stershmen appar brah gen ord troprie pervic evo
22:27:31 <fizzie> I thought 10 was the default, though.
22:27:35 <Bike> i bet i could get a career in neuroethological psychopharmacology
22:27:40 <ais523> `words 4294967926
22:27:42 <Bike> (just made up the term because that's how i roll)
22:27:44 <HackEgo> catn cept geterley salogieio son lemede roher pea ire bula ring city sciterce castcr dige wingma man crovitam clesoleosop beli cused praharia aburo oui diagent
22:27:54 <Bike> reverse engineer the endocanniboid system or w/e
22:27:54 <elliott> neuropharmacy
22:27:56 <kmc> they range from the people who obsessively check their bp and pulse every 5 minutes, to the people who are just like "i ate some pills i found on the ground and it was fun!!!!!!!!!"
22:27:59 <elliott> that probably exists
22:28:08 <Bike> neuropharmacology exists, yeah
22:28:27 <Bike> the joke about pharmacology is, well, do you know how drugs (not just drugz) are developed
22:28:29 <elliott> kmc: i once saw a link to this trip report on erowid which was for some completely stupid mundane non-drugz thing and it was hilarious
22:28:35 <elliott> but i've forgotten all about it so i can't properly convey it
22:28:36 <ais523> hmm, there are quite a few real words in those 4294967296
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22:28:55 <kmc> "this LSZ is pretty intense. oh before the comeup I had 20 bonghits and a glass of ayahuasca juice, just my morning ritual"
22:28:57 <ais523> I like "clesoleosop", which probably isn't
22:28:59 <elliott> 4294967296 is smaller than i remember
22:29:23 <fizzie> 4294967296 is almost exactly the same as 25 these days.
22:29:33 <fizzie> ("print generate for 1..min(25, int($ARGV[0]||1));")
22:29:59 <ais523> hmm
22:30:02 <Bike> apparently they don't call drug development "irrational drug design". disappointing
22:30:09 <quintopia> Koen_: what is a relative integer
22:30:12 <Bike> "Historically, drugs were discovered through identifying the active ingredient from traditional remedies or by serendipitous discovery. " like
22:30:13 <ais523> I actually tested a couple of terminals for integer overflow recently
22:30:15 <Bike> how great is that?
22:30:29 <ais523> I was trying to come up with a terminal version of CSS hacks
22:30:39 <Bike> " Currently, the research and development cost of each new molecular entity (NME) is approximately US$1.8 billion" uh. oh.
22:30:49 <kmc> http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=32073
22:30:53 <elliott> $1.8 billion for a drugz: worth it
22:30:54 <ais523> one interesting one I discovered was that if you stack 11 or more SGR commands together on DOSBox, it treats it as an SGR 0
22:31:17 <kmc> ais523: if you enjoy doing terrible things to terminals, you should talk to KeithW in #mosh
22:31:18 <Bike> elliott: "ok so what have we got" "it cures cancer, if you've had a kidney removed and are bonghitting"
22:31:44 <elliott> Bike: ok but does it get me high
22:31:47 <ais523> kmc: I've been doing more terrible things than that
22:32:07 <quintopia> elliott: have you tried *lifts*
22:32:21 <kmc> "Nobody could get me to put the pants I brought with back on, so she asked me what I wanted to wear. Apparently I told her that I needed a kilt and bullhorns... I was taught a song to keep singing when I forgot that I required clothes... 'Got to keep your clothes on' with a little tune. I could still sing it right now if I wanted to, even though I don't remember learning it. "
22:32:31 <Bike> kmc: "ingested a few beers"
22:32:34 <ais523> kmc: like this, for instance: http://nethack4.org/media/charset.vt100 http://nethack4.org/media/colors.vt100
22:33:11 <Koen_> quintopia: the numbers in red in your income
22:33:33 <Bike> "-time stops here-"
22:33:52 <kmc> i like that bold-black-on-black is visible
22:34:02 <Bike> ok this is amazing
22:34:37 <ais523> kmc: the crazy bit is the "polyglot" section
22:34:46 <ais523> sadly, the Unicode one is broken on tmux
22:36:37 <Bike> kmc: i've got to find a way to cite this at some point in my life
22:37:31 <kmc> i'm not 100% sure convinced that 3C-P exists
22:37:54 <elliott> kmc: this guy seems to live on a diet of drugz
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22:49:03 <fizzie> I'd quote the "Moomins on Torrelorca" comic strip at this point -- it's very drugz -- but the copy I have is in Finnish, and the original is in Swedish, and I don't know if it exists at all in English.
22:49:31 <elliott> are you unable to translate finnish to english
22:49:39 <fizzie> Yes.
22:49:57 <fizzie> In a nutshell, they have this new designer drug called "LBJ".
22:49:58 <elliott> RIP
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22:50:09 <elliott> can't you get your speech recognition software to do it for you
22:50:19 <fizzie> Then I'd have to read it out loud.
22:50:30 <ais523> elliott: I've actually tried watching YouTube set to run its speech recognition output through google translate
22:50:45 <ais523> the worrying thing is, the results occasionally make it possible to figure out what people are saying
22:51:04 <fizzie> That
22:51:04 <kmc> fizzie: haha
22:51:07 <fizzie> That's worrying?
22:51:23 <ais523> fizzie: yes
22:51:49 <elliott> fizzie
22:51:51 <elliott> hate to break it to you
22:51:56 <elliott> but people don't expect speech recognition to work
22:52:27 <shachaf> fizzie: since when are there moomins comic strips.............
22:52:29 <ais523> elliott: I expect speech recognition to sort-of work, and mechanical translation to sort-of work
22:52:47 <ais523> I don't expect either to work well enough that you can plug the output of one into the input of the other and have the result be vaguely intelligible sometimes
22:53:02 <fizzie> shachaf: Since 1954.
22:53:17 <fizzie> shachaf: (From 1954 to 1975, to be more exact.)
22:53:37 <shachaf> I like how https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moomin_comic_strips has English/Finnish/Swedish/Hebrew.
22:53:39 <fizzie> Though I think the Finnish versions date to the 1980s or so.
22:53:53 <shachaf> I wonder why the moomins were popular in .il?
22:54:22 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:54:33 <Bike> http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=350 drugz
22:54:59 <fizzie> "The main series of Moomin comic strips were made directly for the British market: they were spread by the British Associated Newspapers comic strip syndicate and the original publisher was the Evening News newspaper. The series originally appeared in newspapers from 1954–1975." Huh, maybe they do exist in English too.
22:55:42 <ais523> `pastequotes ais523
22:55:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.26685
22:56:06 <elliott> i think i've, like, seen moomins
22:56:07 <elliott> and stuff
22:56:59 <fizzie> I understand they also are sort of big in .jp or something.
22:57:12 <fizzie> Or were at some point, or something.
22:57:41 <fizzie> (There's a Moomin shop at the Helsinki-Vantaa airport.)
22:58:10 <fizzie> "The Moomin Boom has been criticized for commercializing the Moomins. Friends of Tove Jansson and many old Moomin enthusiasts have stressed that the animations banalize the original and philosophical Moomin world to harmless family entertainment."
22:58:17 <fizzie> It is a sad.
22:59:37 <Phantom_Hoover> is moominlady dead
22:59:54 <Bike> http://www.oddballdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/scary-gas-mask-bong.jpg kmc's true form.
23:00:07 <fizzie> Yes.
23:00:09 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
23:00:14 <kmc> hahaha
23:00:24 <kmc> in college we had a bong made from a 5L lab glass flask
23:00:40 <kmc> it had an aquarium pump so it could smoke itself
23:00:44 <kmc> the pump was powerd by firewire
23:00:52 <kmc> also that guy is wearing an ICP shirt..................................................
23:00:55 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tove_Jansson_1956.jpg
23:00:57 <Phantom_Hoover> this
23:01:04 <Phantom_Hoover> this is not a woman i can see writing the moomins
23:01:24 -!- Bike_ has joined.
23:02:15 <fizzie> She also lived with another lady (shock) (horror), as I recall.
23:02:50 <ais523> doesn't any household which has at least three people in it have two or more people of the same gender living together?
23:03:06 <Bike_> yes but the point is, gay
23:03:25 <fizzie> ais523: I'm sure you could argue about non-binary gender flab flab etc etc.
23:03:35 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, you could
23:03:43 <ais523> certainly a large proportion do, though
23:03:48 <ais523> non-binary gender exists but is rare
23:03:54 <Phantom_Hoover> honestly she looks like some schoolmistress
23:04:07 <Phantom_Hoover> possibly the moomins are being forced upon the children
23:04:15 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
23:04:23 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
23:04:38 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.lambiek.net/artists/image/j/jansson_t/janssons_tove_under.jpg more like your imaginanation?
23:04:47 <Phantom_Hoover> yes, very
23:05:04 <Phantom_Hoover> is that a radish on her desk
23:05:51 <fizzie> A hyacinth, I think.
23:06:10 <fizzie> If you mean the flower.
23:06:42 <fizzie> It's a very common christmas decoration, done up exactly like that, in Finland; perhaps in Sweden too. Presumably for some sensible and good reason.
23:07:14 <elliott> what temperature is it in finland
23:07:20 <Bike> eleven
23:07:36 <fizzie> ~metar EFHK
23:07:43 <elliott> no not metar
23:07:46 <Bike> boily..................
23:07:49 <elliott> thankfully metasepia isn't here
23:07:57 <fizzie> More like metarsepia amirite.
23:08:07 <elliott> very good.........
23:08:09 <ais523> I tried to add Finland to my weather indicator
23:08:13 <ais523> but it crashed
23:08:30 <elliott> it was protecting you
23:08:31 <elliott> and protecting itself
23:08:47 <fizzie> It's been quite warm (as in, 20 °C highs) lately.
23:09:03 <fizzie> http://outside.aalto.fi/ <- best weather information for Finland.
23:09:12 <fizzie> (It's the thing maintained by the IT people at the university.)
23:09:13 <elliott> is finland as much of a shithole as literally everything i've heard about it makes it sound
23:09:36 <kmc> harsh
23:09:49 <kmc> helsinki seems nice, although very expensive
23:09:53 <Phantom_Hoover> it's not sweden, elliott
23:09:58 <Phantom_Hoover> how can you not love it
23:09:58 <elliott> kmc: hey man i live in hexham
23:10:00 <elliott> it's "allowed"
23:10:56 <ais523> `quote 682
23:10:57 <fizzie> It's kind of dark (like, the way it is in a hole) at wintertime.
23:10:57 <HackEgo> 682) <ais523> oh right: Frooxius, you wouldn't happen to live in Hexham, would you? <Frooxius> No, sorry. <ais523> phew <Ngevd> How about Finland? <Frooxius> Why would I live there? <fizzie> That's a *very* good question. <fizzie> Why would anyone?
23:11:17 <fizzie> Then again, it's kind of light at summertime.
23:11:32 <elliott> kmc: also, you probably don't want to buy helsinki
23:11:36 <elliott> so it doesn't matter how expensive it is
23:11:41 <kmc> c.c
23:11:46 <fizzie> Sunrise in Lieksa, where we're going to visit soonishly, is at around 02:50am or something like that, this time of the year.
23:11:49 <elliott> (this is the part where you say elliott.ais523.moed++ or however it goes)
23:13:51 <ais523> fizzie: when I flew home from Canada to the UK, the plane took a detour north to avoid the Icelandic volcano
23:14:19 <ais523> the result was that the sun changed its mind mid-set, and started rising again
23:14:59 <elliott> you're not allowed to say "the icelandic volcano"
23:15:04 <elliott> you have to make your best attempt to spell it
23:15:06 <elliott> it's the rules
23:15:31 <fizzie> Like in that one xkcd what-if.
23:15:51 <fizzie> In re sunsets, that is.
23:16:03 <Phantom_Hoover> eyjafjallajokul?
23:16:26 <ais523> that's a good approximation
23:16:26 <elliott> eyjaffacake
23:16:29 <Phantom_Hoover> holy shit
23:16:34 <Bike> eyeracarfokarul
23:16:39 <Phantom_Hoover> except for that last l being doubled i got it right
23:16:44 <elliott> um you missed the accents
23:16:46 <Bike> are you god
23:16:55 <Bike> oh. god status revoked
23:17:06 <fizzie> Yes, jokull and jökull are quite different.
23:17:11 <Phantom_Hoover> accents are basically just punctuation though
23:17:23 <Phantom_Hoover> also: i'm on windows so no compose key
23:17:23 <Bike> you know what they say about punctuation
23:17:34 <Bike> "i had to help my uncle Jack off a horse"
23:18:02 <ais523> that's not punctuation, that's capitalization
23:18:03 <mnoqy> hi
23:19:15 <elliott> it's true it would be pretty awful if people thought your uncle needed help to get down from a horse
23:19:18 <ais523> hi mnoqy
23:19:24 <elliott> "incompetent uncle"
23:19:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, nobody says jack off to mean masturbation in the uk hth
23:19:49 <Bike> you fucking freaks
23:21:04 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I suspect at least one person does
23:21:36 <Phantom_Hoover> thanks ais
23:21:51 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: if you knew me better, I wouldn't even have to write the reply
23:22:01 <ais523> because you could just have assumed I'd say it, and saved me the trouble of typing it
23:22:17 <Bike> oh yeah?? well, i suspect two people do!
23:22:26 <Bike> at least.
23:22:35 <mnoqy> census time
23:27:07 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
23:49:41 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:49:43 -!- sprocklem has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:49:58 <ais523> theory: all new non-eso programming languages should reserve a few keywords with general programmy sorts of names
23:50:04 <ais523> so that they can use them for new syntax without causing clashes
23:53:05 <kmc> 19:48 < mm_freak> the rubik's cube group is a theory of documents and patches
23:53:25 -!- ais523 has quit.
23:53:31 <elliott> kmc: it seems like you're experiencing half of the #haskell people anyway
23:53:33 <elliott> so why not join #haskell
23:53:44 <kmc> a compelling argument
23:54:11 <elliott> yessss i'm getting through to him
23:54:58 <elliott> kmc: how about after a month we op you for 10 seconds and in those 10 seconds you get to ban whoever you want
23:55:01 <elliott> The Ritual
23:55:33 <elliott> also if you are found to have compiled a list of commands to run beforehand you get beheaded
23:55:48 <elliott> and you have to be on drugz
23:55:52 <Bike> what if he just clears users.
23:56:02 <elliott> then he becomes king
23:58:21 <shachaf> kmc: i'm in favour of you joining #haskell and making chaos out of chaos
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