←2013-10-20 2013-10-21 2013-10-22→ ↑2013 ↑all
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05:07:03 <Bike> THis seems this-channel-y. http://imgur.com/a/3XdPg
05:12:00 <mnoqy> yes
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06:05:30 <shachaf> ⱳɦỏả̉, ɗủɗẻ
06:09:31 <mnoqy> yes
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06:15:35 <ion> bike: :-)
06:17:52 <fizzie> fungot: Do you halt on all inputs?
06:17:52 <fungot> fizzie: i just can't pick one. lifes too short to waste on puzzling out that crap. nootropics are better.
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06:18:00 <fizzie> Very pragmatic.
06:18:21 <shachaf> oh, fungot.
06:18:21 <fungot> shachaf: to get a useful answer, now, about what you want
06:18:22 <Bike> good attitude, fungot
06:18:22 <fungot> Bike: _lo__ina__inihili_ili_i_ation ' !hangman lcase-guess' to guess a letter! lambdabot :d. ( which means mzscheme)
06:18:28 <Bike> scary
06:19:56 <shachaf> fungot: you're scary
06:19:56 <fungot> shachaf: that was an awesome game. 10k is plenty of ways to cheat.
06:20:05 <fizzie> fungot: I don't remember writing a hangman game in there.
06:20:05 <fungot> fizzie: ( sounds worse than it was it first.
06:20:21 <shachaf> Bike: did you read _The Mysterious Island_ y/n
06:21:16 <Bike> probably not
06:21:28 <shachaf> why not
06:21:45 <Bike> i forget
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06:22:39 <shachaf> i funget
06:22:51 <shachaf> (btw english makes no sense)
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06:24:32 <mnoqy> yes
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08:43:26 <fizzie> Bike: "Subject: MATLAB Digest | Academic Edition - October 2013" " Adding Fun to First-Year Computer Programming Classes with MATLAB, --"
08:43:44 <fizzie> (That probably needs no comment.)
08:48:54 <NihilistDandy> Maybe they'll change the MATLAB syntax so that'll be a pun
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09:12:50 <fizzie> Fun fact: one of the built-in MATLAB demos is called "funfuns": http://sprunge.us/VgjS
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09:14:29 <fizzie> (The demo is built around the function HUMPS. The function has two humps.)
09:15:33 <fizzie> There's also the FUNTOOL for working with functions.
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10:19:28 <ais523> I just sent myself (and other recipients) an email, to and from my University email account, using University wi-fi, and entirely using University servers for every hop; it took 15 minutes to arrive
10:19:33 <ais523> I wonder how it's getting so delayed
10:19:57 <fizzie> Greylisting somewhere. (Well, likely not. But it's possible.)
10:20:15 <fizzie> You could check the timestamps in the Received: headers to see if a particular hop took a long time.
10:21:33 <fizzie> (Other hypotheticals: long queue in some mandatory transparent virus scan; spam filtering systems configured to wait for DNS blacklist replies and pointed at something that's offline + long timeouts.)
10:21:52 <ais523> fizzie: the last one, by the look of it; all the received headers are within a minute of the initial send
10:22:06 <ais523> perhaps I'm being stupid and that's just how long it took my client to do a send/receive operatoin
10:22:10 <ais523> *operation
10:23:25 <fizzie> IMAP is supposed to be clever (cf. IMAP IDLE) about that kind of stuff. But sometimes it isn't.
10:25:17 <ais523> also, amusing thing I noticed in the headers; my hostname on this netbook/laptop/thing is "desert", and something else along the line is called "camel", meaning that many of the lines end "camel@desert"
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10:33:12 <fizzie> That is considerably more amusing than the identifiers in headers here, which tend to be things like smtp-out-01, mx06, EXHUB03.
10:34:47 <fizzie> (Okay, there's a mail server at the ICS department called "marconi", which is at least thematically appropriate.)
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10:54:59 <oerjan> <fungot> Bike: _lo__ina__inihili_ili_i_ation ' !hangman lcase-guess' to guess a letter! lambdabot :d. ( which means mzscheme) <-- i'll try f, thanks
10:54:59 <fungot> oerjan: but if a is not bound, not a variable
10:55:21 <oerjan> fungot: a is already there!
10:55:21 <fungot> oerjan: not that i know what ensuring hygiene is. try to lurk for a couple shorthand features that make it hard to write
10:55:32 <oerjan> a filthy robot
10:58:26 <oerjan> <fizzie> (The demo is built around the function HUMPS. The function has two humps.) <-- a bactrian function.
11:02:23 <fizzie> Fun MATLAB fact: variables are case-sensitive, but functions are case-insensitive.
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11:02:48 <fizzie> (Presumably because function names derive from file names, and case-insensitive file systems are a thing.)
11:03:37 <oerjan> are you sure it's not just case-insensitive on windows.
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11:05:08 <Taneb> Oh hey, I have calculus homework
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11:07:39 <fizzie> oerjan: I think you are right! Which makes their ubiquitous convention of uppercasing function names in all documentation quite bizarre.
11:07:56 <fizzie> (Because the actual names are lowercase on case-sensitive systems.)
11:08:23 <oerjan> darn you realize a was joking
11:08:26 <oerjan> *i
11:09:37 <fizzie> I thought you were, but then it was true, so I rethought that perhaps you knew something.
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11:12:53 <fizzie> Apparently since R14 it is case-sensitive on Windows too, but there the behaviour on case mismatch is to print out a warning and then call the function.
11:13:05 <fizzie> (While on Linux it prints out an error and suggests the correct case.)
11:13:17 <oerjan> fancy.
11:14:12 <fizzie> Oh, it's error on Windows too, starting from R2011b.
11:15:01 <fizzie> Well then, my fun MATLAB fact was in fact (pun not intended) a not-so-fun MATLAB lie, when talking about modern versions.
11:15:20 <oerjan> is the documentation still bizarre, though
11:15:25 <fizzie> Yes.
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11:16:10 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/aJXS
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14:20:43 <boily> `relcome diva
14:20:46 <HackEgo> diva: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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14:33:42 <shachaf> `olist (925)
14:33:44 <HackEgo> olist (925): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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17:24:17 <Taneb> I've got two weeks to, with two other people, create and present a 15-minute talk on Fourier series
17:24:46 <shachaf> imo talk about adjunctions instead
17:25:09 <Taneb> I have a feeling that that would be on the other hand a very bad idea
17:25:22 <Bike> what about fourier series?
17:25:36 <shachaf> oh, Bike's suggestion is good. talk about fourier series.
17:25:48 <Bike> i mean, what about fourier series are you to talk about.
17:26:09 <Taneb> Bike, an introduction to them, a bit about Fourier himself, and something else about some identity?
17:26:54 <Bike> have you read fourier's original paper? that would probably help for introduction ("dude invented them for the heat equation") and for fourier himself if there's an intro to it ("something something napoleon??")
17:28:37 <Bike> oh right yeah he was in charge of egypt for a while
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17:30:02 <boily> what is an adjunction?
17:30:28 <Bike> some category theory thing that's not very useful for making jpegs
17:31:24 <Bike> @wn adjunction
17:31:25 <lambdabot> *** "adjunction" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
17:31:26 <lambdabot> adjunction
17:31:26 <lambdabot> n 1: an act of joining or adjoining things [syn: {junction},
17:31:26 <lambdabot> {adjunction}]
17:31:31 <Bike> genius
17:31:50 <boily> ...
17:31:55 <boily> ~duck adjunction
17:32:07 <boily> oh hm. my bot is once again dead...
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17:32:20 <boily> ~duck adjunction
17:32:21 <metasepia> adjoint definition: the transpose of a matrix in which each element is replaced by its cofactor.
17:32:30 <Bike> ~duck adjoint functor
17:32:30 <metasepia> In mathematics, specifically category theory, adjunction is a possible relationship between two functors.
17:32:36 <Bike> lol thanks
17:32:39 <boily> ...
17:32:41 <drlemon> Peit on a rubiks cube
17:32:44 <boily> fungot my life.
17:32:44 <fungot> boily: other than that cfunge is pretty finished, other parts aren't changing or are changing slowly... yesterday. can it get knocked over on their sides ( the structures, not in
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17:34:43 <Bike> ~duck adjoint functors arise everywhere
17:34:43 <metasepia> --- No relevant information
17:36:09 <boily> ~duck fungot
17:36:10 <metasepia> --- No relevant information
17:36:10 <fungot> boily: which repl are you using plt?
17:36:15 <boily> fungot: no, csi.
17:36:16 <fungot> boily: i get it. a closure whose template field is not correctly set. i suspect some people or programs might also like cooking with beer
17:36:55 <boily> fungot: I thought chicken's closures where one of its selling points. and yes, I do enjoy cooking with beer. preferably with the beer inside me.
17:36:55 <fungot> boily: razor-x is sorry for raping you. erections can last for weeks or months. :p it was like a crash course. i'll use elisp macros to generate statements for characters in most scheme systems, so you
17:37:06 <boily> fungot: IIIIEEEEEURGH!
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17:44:36 <FireFly> fungot: what.
17:44:36 <fungot> FireFly: masters degree is supposed to be what they do
17:45:28 <boily> fungot: you are vile, uncouth, and you use elisp macros!
17:45:28 <fungot> boily: destroyer of worlds". exactly. your life will be so fast that you can speak with me i'll just keep on reading, then.
17:46:16 <FireFly> fungot: you better do.
17:46:16 <fungot> FireFly: that's a funny thought. i may tweak it a bit later. it's not physically possible for x&4 to have more fun learn more on the language
17:46:23 <boily> fungot: no. no trans-humanistic upload to the cloud for me, thank you very much. and if you just could *not* destroy the world, I'll be very happy. probably other people too, but yeah. no destruction for you.
17:46:23 <fungot> boily: it's slow, but that's definitely a male. not by far
17:47:01 <boily> fungot: I'm male, but I ain't slow. I'm a Canadian!
17:47:02 <fungot> boily: error while getting interface flags: no such file
17:47:14 <FireFly> boily: are you sure that you exist?
17:47:15 <boily> dammit. Canada unexistence strikes again!
17:47:21 <boily> FireFly: not anymore.
17:47:26 <shachaf> boil: adjunctions are p. good
17:47:38 <FireFly> fungot: are they really, though?
17:47:38 <fungot> FireFly: the 32 one probably looks correct because i practically wrote it. maybe they were busy". and he denies having reading h2g2.
17:47:40 <boily> shacha: you sure?
17:47:47 <fizzie> "not very useful for making jpegs" is the best description.
17:48:14 <Bike> it's true!!!
17:48:26 <boily> FireFly: according to the Fizzian Bot, there are 32 adjunctions total. probably related to the 36 stratagems or something.
17:48:34 <fizzie> fungot: Are you very useful for making jpegs?
17:48:34 <fungot> fizzie: standards change over time.
17:48:48 <FireFly> Very wise
17:49:01 <shachaf> fungot: are you useful for making jpeg2000s
17:49:01 <fungot> shachaf: no, the cond in body not be colored as well, if you use direct slot access is not efficent) is friendly to lisp startups. it
17:49:04 <FireFly> When was the last JPEG standard released anyway?
17:49:24 <FireFly> When were?
17:49:27 <FireFly> hm
17:49:45 <boily> I wonder what will Unicode 7.0 include...
17:49:58 <fizzie> Does JPEG2000 count?
17:50:10 <fizzie> (Or JPEG XR or other such things.)
17:50:35 <shachaf> U+3E8A0 COMBINING ADJOINT TO THE LEFT
17:51:02 <FireFly> I guess not
17:51:33 <fizzie> Apparently the last JPEG standard was released in 2013.
17:51:45 <fizzie> http://www.iso.org/iso/home/store/catalogue_tc/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=59634
17:51:58 <Bike> shachaf: have you considered writing "Irreplaceable" to be about adjunctions
17:51:59 <fizzie> (Part of the "real" JPEG series.)
17:54:22 <boily> “[The Tertiary Ideographic Plane] is reserved for Oracle Bone script, Bronze Script, Small Seal Script, additional CJK unified ideographs, and other historic ideographic scripts.” no mention if that'll appear in 7.0.
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17:55:53 <fizzie> Fun fact: most of the Oracle database system is written in Oracle Bone script.
17:55:55 <fizzie> (It's not.)
17:56:08 <shachaf> fun fact 0 = 1
17:56:17 <Bike> they really call han "ideographic" huh
17:56:30 <boily> they do.
17:56:47 <boily> fizzie: if only it'd be so... the world would be a muche better place imho.
17:57:14 <Bike> i thought using "ideogram" for han was considered bad now
17:57:21 <Bike> since han characters are kind of... not ideas
17:58:12 <boily> (there are some very nice chars in the SIP, e.g. U+20BA7 TELEVISION SET)
17:58:22 <Bike> good character
17:58:26 <boily> 20BA6, says I.
17:58:38 * boily can't count. “1... 2... 5...”
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18:02:19 <Koen_> boily: skipping 4 is okay, people would think you're enumerating prime numbers or fibonacci or whatever. but THREE? you can't miss THREE!!
18:03:20 <boily> Koen_: 3 is complicated.
18:03:46 <Koen_> I know, right? 3 is a crowd.
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18:09:19 <boily> `relcome Rosette
18:09:22 <HackEgo> Rosette: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:10:32 <oerjan> fancy color scheme today
18:11:02 <FireFly> boily: three, sir.
18:11:10 <oerjan> Koen_: you can skip 3 if you're listing powers of 2.
18:11:22 <Rosette> ty
18:11:24 <Koen_> right
18:11:28 <Rosette> thank you
18:13:13 * boily lobs the Holy Fungot of Helsinki over at... uhm... who would fit the killer rabbit the most?
18:13:27 <Bike> lmt
18:13:59 <fizzie> We're in Espoo hth
18:14:16 <oerjan> yes, some people actually care about the difference.
18:14:25 <oerjan> i dunno if any are here, though.
18:16:50 <boily> well, the lazy me lumps Vantaa with Helsinki, but you're right to say Espoo's different.
18:16:59 <boily> the metro doesn't get there yet, for example.
18:23:31 <fizzie> They're digging as fast as they can, though.
18:23:37 <fizzie> (Maybe not quite as fast as all that.)
18:24:09 <zzo38> HELLO
18:24:18 <Bike> hi zzo
18:24:22 <Koen_> hello zzo
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18:24:40 <fizzie> Also, the metro does not get to Vantaa either, and it's not even going to.
18:25:00 -!- Rosette has left.
18:25:53 <fizzie> (Well, I guess they've got a couple of plans, but nothing as concrete as the Espoo extension.)
18:26:25 <Koen_> yeah digging a metro out of concrete is pretty hard
18:28:12 <zzo38> Are knowing a better way to traverse and pattern match rose trees which are stored in a SQL database?
18:28:34 <zzo38> (In a way that can be accessed from within SQL programs)
18:33:12 <lexande> fizzie, Koen_: why bother digging a metro when the suburban railway lines already go that way?
18:33:16 <boily> hey, maybe the Helsinki Metro will get all the way to Montréal!
18:34:00 <Koen_> lexande: eh, I don't know. I've never understood these nordic people
18:34:58 <fizzie> lexande: You mean, to Vantaa?
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18:36:00 <fizzie> I think the "East Metro" was supposed to go near the coast to Sipoo, the trains don't go there.
18:36:08 <fizzie> Though it does cross a bit of Vantaa there too.
18:37:17 <fizzie> And (just my gut feeling; I'm sure Serious People have spent more Serious Thoughts on this) I don't think there's yet quite enough people living in there to make it worthwhile, but maybe in the future.
18:38:47 <zzo38> Do you know which bits of MSETBL (in the Z-machine) are corresponding to which menus?
18:39:19 <lexande> fizzie: yes, to Vantaa
18:39:46 <fizzie> Right. Well, no, I don't think anyone's planning to extend the subway to Tikkurila or anything, just generally eastwards.
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18:41:17 <fizzie> Though I remember there were originally plans to have the subway branch northwards, there was even a subway station dug in Munkkivuori that was never used for anything.
18:42:17 <fizzie> Done in the 1960s.
18:43:06 <fizzie> There were pictures of the "cave" somewhere, but I can't find any good ones now.
18:44:39 <fizzie> (This is ##UrbanTransportation I'm talking on, right?)
18:44:58 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: channel name invented, I don't know what the real one is.)
18:45:24 <kmc> it's #cslounge-trains
18:46:26 <oerjan> quite easily guessed
18:48:11 <shachaf> ##OerjanTransportation
18:48:33 <oerjan> itym ##feet
18:48:46 <fizzie> "itym ##stinkyfeet" no wait that would be mean
18:49:19 <oerjan> i don't think they're particularly stinky, although that may change when i finally change to my winter shoes
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19:01:11 <boily> kmc: what is cslounge, and why does cslounge-trains exist?
19:01:15 <oerjan> why do these apples have sticky skin, it's appalling
19:01:26 <boily> oerjan, swat yourself.
19:03:18 <oerjan> also it's a bit sour, despite being nominally red. as was yesterday's apple. not very appealing.
19:04:21 <oerjan> maybe they could, like, classify by taste instead of color.
19:04:21 <fizzie> I only eat the sourest green apples they sell in the local shop.
19:04:32 <oerjan> fizzie: gah!
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19:06:03 <fizzie> I also like redcurrants a lot, so possibly it's my fault.
19:06:57 <oerjan> not really a fan here.
19:07:19 <oerjan> despite that we had them in our garden when i grew up
19:08:14 <oerjan> but yeah, i like very little sour food.
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19:08:21 <olsner> how are redcurrants different from blackcurrants except the color?
19:08:51 <kmc> boily: #cslounge is a channel for the extended social group of some people who studied CS at CMU in a particular period of time
19:09:03 -!- Bike has joined.
19:09:11 <oerjan> olsner: completely different taste. blackcurrants are _not_ sour when ripe.
19:09:13 <kmc> they're not that friendly to outsiders
19:09:16 <kmc> but #cslounge-trains is
19:09:26 <kmc> and lexande is the king of that channel or something
19:09:33 <oerjan> (we had those in the garden too.)
19:09:48 <lexande> #cslounge-trains exists because me, yeah
19:10:22 <fizzie> I don't like blackcurrants very much. Because they're not so sour.
19:10:27 <oerjan> of course in norwegian the names are not even related. (redcurrant = no:rips, blackcurrant = no:solbær)
19:10:46 <olsner> they're red and black "wineberries" in swedish
19:10:51 <fizzie> oerjan: "Punaviinimarja", "mustaherukka". (Though "punaherukka" *is* used as an alternative.)
19:10:54 <oerjan> i see they're actually the same genus, though.
19:10:59 <fizzie> olsner: "viinimarja" is "wineberry".
19:11:35 <boily> oh. fr:groseille and fr:cassis.
19:14:05 <oerjan> huh gooseberry is _also_ the same genus, that's the third kind of berry bush we had
19:14:06 <boily> elliott: there's a berry named in your honour → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccinium_elliottii
19:14:20 <fizzie> oerjan: It's kind of the "standard set" of berry bushes here too.
19:16:06 <fizzie> Often combined with some rhubarb.
19:16:10 <olsner> I don't trust gooseberries
19:16:36 <oerjan> fizzie: we had rhubarb. also raspberry and strawberries.
19:17:17 <fizzie> oerjan: How surprising, we (well, not *here* in the city, but the place of my grandparents' in the country) had all of those too.
19:17:18 <boily> blueberries are the best!
19:17:30 <oerjan> other things varied by year, i guess.
19:17:33 <fizzie> Non-wild blueberries are kind of "meh", I believe.
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19:18:10 <Bike> unhip blueberries
19:18:17 <fizzie> I don't think people actually cultivate-grow blueberries very much, but there's certainly a lot of it collected from the wild.
19:18:33 <olsner> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudberry is the best berry I know
19:19:03 <oerjan> i think maybe there were blueberries in the forest nearby until it grew completely dense.
19:19:30 <olsner> bananas are pretty good berries as well
19:19:47 <fizzie> There's even an ongoing scandal about people from Thailand coming to Finland to pick wild berries, because there's a sort of a generic permission to do that on anyone's land.
19:19:59 <kmc> that's a long way to go for some berries
19:20:00 <oerjan> well technically it started out mostly as swamp, which was gradually drained when/after the house was built.
19:20:18 <Bike> if someone was willing to come from thailand to pick blackberries in my yard i think i'd let them
19:20:19 <fizzie> kmc: Allegations of human trafficking this and that, there's some sort of a thing.
19:20:26 <Bike> maybe we could share cobbler
19:22:21 <fizzie> Also there's some cloudberries around the swamp/lake at the summer cottage, though it's not a *terribly* good place for them.
19:22:48 <olsner> scamming foreign berrypickers is a reoccuring scandal in sweden as well
19:24:13 <fizzie> http://www.icenews.is/2013/09/22/thai-berry-pickers-refuse-to-board-flight-out-of-finland/
19:24:14 <oerjan> i've picked cloudberries, although we usually had to go a bit out of the way for those.
19:26:40 <fizzie> olsner: It seems your this year's scandal is pretty much identical to ours.
19:27:09 <olsner> I'm not up to date with this year's scandal afaik, but I assume it's the same as every year
19:28:42 <fizzie> oerjan: "The Norwegian government, in cooperation with Finnish, Swedish and Scottish counterparts, has vigorously pursued the aim of enabling commercial production of various wild berries (Norway imports 200 - 300 tonnes of cloudberries per year from Finland)."
19:29:59 <fizzie> We've put that thing (the berry, not some sort of symbolical reference to Norway importinh them) in our coin too. (Didn't remember that.)
19:30:31 <olsner> hmm, commercial production of wild berries?
19:30:34 <boily> Scotland is a Nordic Country???
19:31:04 <fizzie> boily: Did it say that somewhere?
19:31:18 <fizzie> I mean, "counterpart", I think every place has a government.
19:32:15 <boily> beuh. that's boring.
19:32:30 <fizzie> There was something about Scotland being something, though.
19:32:35 <fizzie> (Very specific, I know.)
19:35:42 * boily is reading Wikipédia's “Scandinavian Scotland” article
19:35:51 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam
19:37:33 <Bike> I have a book of icelandic sagas, one of them is about a guy who among other things sails down to england to help king whatshisname crush northumberland
19:37:36 <Bike> good stuff
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19:37:41 <Bike> by "a guy" i mean "a viking"
19:37:56 <AnotherTest> Hello
19:38:43 <Taneb> Bike, did you know that during the crushing of Northumberland, the church in Hexham was burnt down?
19:38:55 <boily> what is a sampo?
19:38:57 <oerjan> `run WeLcOmE AnotherTest | rainbow
19:38:57 <Bike> I did actually
19:39:00 <HackEgo> AnOtHeRtEsT: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
19:39:27 <boily> `pastewisdom
19:39:28 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
19:39:44 <oerjan> Taneb: it's not a proper viking raid without some church burning
19:41:13 <AnotherTest> oerjan: Question about stabilizers. Could you scetch a proof that the index of the stabilzer of p, G_p, in G is the order of the orbital of G containing p; |pG| = (G : G_p)
19:41:27 <olsner> hmm, for some reason *this* rainbow welcome caused a flashback to the time of writing quickbasic programs printing text in various colors
19:41:34 <olsner> weird that that never happened before
19:41:45 <oerjan> what's the definition of stabilizer again.
19:41:45 <AnotherTest> or is this something very logical? Because in this book I'm reading it's not really proven, and I don't immediately see why that is true
19:42:04 <AnotherTest> oerjan: set of elements that leave p \in G unchanged under a group action
19:42:32 <Taneb> Bike, I'm pretty sure William Wallace burnt the same church down
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19:45:18 <oerjan> AnotherTest: well hm it's probably simple...
19:46:32 <oerjan> wait is G acting on itself.
19:46:48 <AnotherTest> um, not necessairily I think
19:47:01 <oerjan> so p is not necessarily in G.
19:47:01 <AnotherTest> oh wait
19:47:14 <AnotherTest> Yes, it is acting on itself
19:47:41 <oerjan> i'd imagine it's true even if it doesn't.
19:48:47 <AnotherTest> Well, on the other hand
19:48:52 <oerjan> something like this: for every element in the orbital pick an element of G sending p to it; then all elements in G are a unique multiple of the chosen element sending p to the same thing and an element of the stabilizer.
19:48:58 <AnotherTest> I think p \in S not p \in G
19:49:19 <oerjan> so |G| = |pG| * |G_p|
19:50:05 <AnotherTest> So why is the index of G_p in G |pG|?
19:50:06 <oerjan> (i leave it as an exercise to multiply things in the right order :P)
19:50:13 <AnotherTest> oh right
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19:51:15 <oerjan> do you understand the idea of my sketch?
19:52:45 <oerjan> it's about pairing G with tuples from pG, G_p
19:52:47 <AnotherTest> oerjan: not really
19:53:00 <oerjan> a bijection between G and pG x G_p
19:53:39 <AnotherTest> ah and |pG x G_p| = |pG| * |G_p|?
19:53:39 <oerjan> hm i think the stabilizer should be first, assuming the pG notation is what i think
19:53:43 <oerjan> yep
19:54:05 <AnotherTest> pG = orbital containing p
19:54:28 <oerjan> yes, just that you multiply with G elements on the right
19:54:53 <AnotherTest> why is it always possible to pick an element in the orbital so that p -> the element
19:56:39 <oerjan> if you have an element x of pG, then there must be a g in G such that x = pg by definition.
19:57:23 <oerjan> it's not necessarily unique, but you get all the others by multiplying g with something from the stabilizer.
19:57:35 <AnotherTest> oh, right. of course
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19:57:47 <AnotherTest> because the orbital is the equivalence class etc
19:58:07 <oerjan> wait, it is?
19:58:24 <oerjan> i thought it was just an ordinary subset of G or S.
19:59:19 <oerjan> i suppose some of this needs a little checking, which _should_ be nearly trivial.
19:59:30 <AnotherTest> oerjan: according to this book, it is the equivalence class defined by some relation x ~ y <=> x = yg for some g \in G
19:59:54 <oerjan> oh well right.
20:00:39 <oerjan> and yes, the fact that it is an equivalence class is part of what is needed for this to work.
20:01:42 <AnotherTest> by the way, are all of these notions (stabilizer, centralizer and what not) really important in applications like cryptography
20:01:52 <oerjan> no idea
20:01:57 <AnotherTest> or in for example the sector that you work in, not sure what that is
20:02:06 <AnotherTest> although it seems to be related
20:02:33 <oerjan> i'm not working any longer, but when i did, orbit(al)s were a big deal.
20:04:08 <AnotherTest> what about the other things like stabilizers?
20:06:31 <oerjan> our dynamical systems were usually free, which means the stabilizer is trivial.
20:06:45 <oerjan> and i don't recall using the term.
20:07:01 <oerjan> although i did have a small result on non-free systems in my PhD.
20:08:13 <oerjan> the group was usually pretty simple too, Z or Z^2.
20:08:36 <oerjan> oh wait i had a small result with a weirder group.
20:09:18 <mnoqy> those groups dont sound very simple to me :-)
20:09:33 <oerjan> mnoqy: um i mean not complicated
20:09:54 <mnoqy> yes thats my bad joke face
20:09:59 <oerjan> OKAY
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20:10:50 <oerjan> it was like, when i started my PhD the theory for just Z was just proved by my advisor and colleagues, so i looked at various little generalizations.
20:11:10 <oerjan> (also of other aspects.)
20:12:24 <oerjan> but we didn't really use much group theory of the kind AnotherTest is alluding to. although their main theorem used group homology at a crucial step.
20:13:25 <oerjan> and i vaguely recall it was sort of serendipity that led them to find out the step they needed _was_ a result in group homology.
20:13:35 <AnotherTest> well the group theroy I'm asking about all the time might not be so useful in the end, I wouldn't know, I'm just a kid trying to figure this out
20:13:47 <AnotherTest> for no real practical reason
20:13:53 <oerjan> oh i'm sure it's useful for all kinds of things.
20:14:08 <oerjan> just not necessarily all at the same time :)
20:17:08 <`^_^v> does anyone know any good books on formal verification/model checking/static analysis?
20:17:22 <oerjan> i know group theory is extremely important in quantum physics, at least.
20:20:42 <AnotherTest> Anyway, thanks. I'm going to try to complete that proof
20:20:42 <oerjan> i spent a month in ireland once trying to cooperate with this guy who was researching quantum groups (which are _not_ groups but more a kind of "quantization" of them.)
20:21:17 <zzo38> I made up two D&D feats for use with spellcasters (wizard, sorcerer) having a familiar.
20:22:15 <zzo38> Familiar Enhanced Spell [Metamagic] (Requires: familiar) Increases slot level by 2. Familiar must be conscious and within range (5ft/caster level) during entire casting time, otherwise spell fails. Your control/concentration (including dismissal) of this spell is severed if familiar is unconscious or out of range, but is reinstated if consious/range.
20:23:51 <zzo38> You may select one of the effects as you cast this spell: [1] Familiar is targeted as if it is an object or different creature type. [2] Familiar is immune to effects of this spell. [3] Designate familiar as toucher even though not in contact with the caster. [4] Target familiar even if not in normal range of the spell (even personal can be changed to other than touch).
20:24:45 <zzo38> [5] Range is measured starting from familiar. [6] Save DC increase by 2 if familiar in 5ft of target. [7] Familiar's attack(s) against target(s) of spell have +4 attack +2 damage if used within 1 round of casting. [8] Caster has +3 Concentration with this spell while familiar in 5ft of caster. [9] Duration increased by 1d2 rounds for familiar if targeted.
20:24:47 <zzo38> That is all.
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20:25:34 <zzo38> Should the slot level be different perhaps?
20:28:44 <zzo38> The other feat is: Wise Familiar [General, wizard can select as bonus feat] (Requires: familiar, caster level at least 2, spend 1 XP to select this feat) Int and Wis of familiar +2, but not exceed your own. If this results in their Int at least 10, they can 1/day as a spell-like ability, cast a 0-level spell you have available to cast, without expending the slot, at caster level 1. Cannot be used with spells having XP cost, expensive M/F component,
20:30:03 <boily> hmm... there needs to be a Summon Fungot spell.
20:30:17 <zzo38> boily: What will be that spell level, duration, etc?
20:30:57 <Bike> pretty sure that's epic-level
20:31:10 <boily> Bike: I was thinking along the lines of summon imp...
20:31:30 <boily> but then, I don't know about fungot's physical form.
20:31:30 <fungot> boily: mathematica has a fox! wonderful! :) gay fnord fnord)
20:31:50 <boily> Bike: a small woodland creature, it seems.
20:31:51 <zzo38> Do you think these two foots^Wfeats may be good, or a possible adjustment to make?
20:32:05 <Bike> foots?
20:32:14 <zzo38> I do not expect fungot to have a physical form.
20:32:15 <fungot> zzo38: how did you do make a scheme based wiki, then you can't test for equality with floating point
20:32:48 <oerjan> no one expects the fungot with a physical form
20:32:48 <fungot> oerjan: if you're open minded, go for it offby1! you don't specify what multiplication is.
20:32:52 <zzo38> ... Why does a wiki software need floating point? ...
20:33:04 <boily> zzo38: random page.
20:33:07 <oerjan> zzo38: for unit conversions?
20:33:16 <Gregor> Why does selecting a random page require floating point?
20:33:24 <boily> the fungot cannot be stopped by that summoning alone!
20:33:24 <fungot> boily: and french is _not_ my favorite language. you're just saying that there's something wrong
20:33:52 <boily> fungot: eille! c'est quoi que t'as contre le français, espèce de bot dégénéré?
20:33:52 <fungot> boily: then if you use ' is', then
20:34:14 <zzo38> oerjan: OK, maybe for unit conversions, but would you need to test for equality in that case?
20:34:32 <boily> fungot: bin, c'est comme évident que j'utilise «être». c'est comme que genre le verbe le plus important?
20:34:32 <fungot> boily: but does it really teach programming?...
20:34:46 <boily> fungot: ouais, vaguement. mettons que c'est pas vargeux par moments.
20:34:46 <fungot> boily: so i made my point. where the action gets fnord. the two theses licenses are too weird, tusho
20:34:54 <oerjan> zzo38: maybe not.
20:35:07 <boily> fungot: c'est pas parce que t'as raison que t'es obligé d'être méchant envers les francophones. non mais. tsé.
20:35:40 <zzo38> What are you thinking of these feats? Should a slight adjustment be made?
20:36:03 <boily> they seem pretty good, imo. and besides, nothing like playtesting them.
20:37:04 <zzo38> Yes, although I would have to select them to playtesting them and do not intend to do so right away and if is no good should be adjusted. There are too many possible situations to test so you have to make a thought-experiment at least would be one thing.
20:37:44 <zzo38> I mean if it is a bit too powerful possibly then it might be better to increase the slot level by more than 2 or to add further restrictions, or something like that
20:37:45 <boily> geD&Dkenexperiment.
20:38:55 <zzo38> For example by comparing it to existing things and thinking of what would make them too powerful
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20:40:53 <zzo38> Maybe it should also say, familiar is not allowed to do other things (such as attacking) during casting time.
20:42:53 <Phantom_Hoover> `seen elliott
20:42:56 <HackEgo> 2013-10-19 22:25:10: <elliott> haha, you can pay through bitcoin
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21:22:22 <fizzie> @tell boily It's this mythical machine that makes endless amounts of grain, salt and money. Haven't you read the Donald Duck story?
21:22:23 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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21:23:26 <oerjan> fizzie: wait what
21:23:54 <fizzie> oerjan: He asked about the sampo.
21:23:59 <oerjan> aha
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21:24:39 <fizzie> (And the story is "The Quest for Kalevala", by Don Rosa.)
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21:25:02 <fizzie> It has some nice scenes with recognizable locations in Helsinki.
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21:33:18 <oerjan> "The publication of this story created a national sensation in Finland where Donald Duck and the Kalevala are important aspects of culture."
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21:35:21 <oerjan> i think don rosa appeared at approximately the time when i stopped reading donald duck...
21:36:57 <fizzie> I don't think I was ordering the magazine when most of his stories came out, but I've got several of the separate books.
21:38:49 <kmc> wait what
21:38:57 <kmc> Donald Duck is an important aspect of culture in Finland?
21:39:09 <fizzie> I think that's a reasonably fair statement.
21:39:30 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_duck#Nordic_Countries
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21:41:14 <olsner> huh, it's "Donald Duck" in norwegian?
21:41:22 <oerjan> yep
21:41:28 <kmc> confusing
21:41:34 <fizzie> oerjan: That's kind of lazy.
21:41:42 <kmc> 'Finnish voters placing "protest votes" typically write "Donald Duck" as the candidate'
21:41:45 <kmc> awesome
21:42:10 <olsner> I thought norwegians were highly anti-english about anything that could have norwegian words
21:42:13 <oerjan> indeed. most other character names are translated, though.
21:42:25 <olsner> kmc: you don't do that?
21:42:36 <fizzie> The number of Donald Duck votes is mentioned sometimes after elections.
21:42:39 <oerjan> olsner: well in _theory_...
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21:43:22 <kmc> we had a student government constitutional crisis after someone wrote in "God" and someone else wrote in "Fake Shawn's Bike". also this was on a ballot where "No" is already an official option
21:43:45 <fizzie> They don't release official statistics of disqualified votes, I think, but there are some smaller-scale extrapolations.
21:44:11 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, were those... the only votes?
21:44:20 <kmc> not quite
21:44:39 <kmc> no, the crisis was over whether voting for someone who isn't a student / doesn't exist / is a bicycle would invalidate your whole ballot or whether those entries would simply be removed from the preference ordering
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21:45:03 <Fiora> but Bike is a student
21:45:12 <Phantom_Hoover> and the reason people didn't just go for the latter was...?
21:45:12 <fizzie> http://static.iltalehti.fi/presidentinvaalit/liput22401HL_pd.jpg that's one vote-counter's personal count of discarded votes.
21:45:16 <shachaf> Right, that's why kmc had to specify "is a bicycle" separately.
21:45:22 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: well you have to interpret what the constitution says!!!!
21:45:24 <fizzie> Donald Duck ("Aku Ankka") is third from the top.
21:45:27 <kmc> you can't just decide arbitrarily
21:45:35 <kmc> that would make a mockery of the whole concept of student government!
21:45:39 <oerjan> daisy duck is translated as "dolly", which is different from the original yet clearly english.
21:45:43 <fizzie> (Presidential election of 2012.)
21:46:13 <kmc> http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2008/11/23/so_why_would_someone_for_the_lizard_people "A man who claims to be the voter behind the infamous Lizard People ballot in the U.S. Senate race recount has come forward."
21:46:36 <fizzie> And the right column is listing how many votes had some additional graphics (hearts, smileys or so) in addition to the number of an actual candidate, which is also grounds for disqualifying the vote.
21:47:00 <kmc> http://images.publicradio.org/content/2008/11/19/20081119_lizardpeople_33.jpg
21:47:23 <kmc> fizzie: haha
21:47:41 <zzo38> Obviously they voted lizard people because they don't like any of the other candidates. Same reason someone vote Mickey Mouse, I suppose.
21:47:44 <kmc> and what's "haavsto" and "ninistö"
21:48:02 <kmc> (or whatever words those are)
21:48:02 <fizzie> kmc: "Haavisto" and "Niinistö", names of the two actual candidates.
21:48:06 <kmc> ah
21:48:10 <zzo38> As well as anything else you would vote for, if you don't like any of the other candidates, you will vote for the remaining one, whether or not it is one of the choices.
21:48:28 <fizzie> I think this is from the second round when only two candidates are left.
21:48:32 <kmc> clearly if you're running for office it's advantageous to have a name with no dots in it (harder in finnish!)
21:48:56 <fizzie> http://www.iltalehti.fi/presidentinvaalit/2012012415112887_pd.shtml has a couple of samples of actual discarded votes, too.
21:49:07 <shachaf> zzo38 for president
21:49:08 <fizzie> (There's one number 2 with a heart, for example.)
21:49:08 <zzo38> No dots in it?
21:49:20 <Jafet> Is that why "Hussein" gets dropped
21:49:23 <oerjan> <kmc> that would make a mockery of the whole concept of student government! <-- now i'm thinking of that quote from terry pratchett's The Last Continent.
21:49:29 <shachaf> kmc: easier in turkish??
21:49:41 <zzo38> shachaf: I am not one of the candidates either, sorry.
21:50:21 <fizzie> The "EI HOMOILLE" text in one (voting for #6) means approximately "NO GAYS"; the other candidate (#2) was a gay man.
21:50:21 <shachaf> zzo38: i just nominated you "checkmate"
21:50:54 <fizzie> I see there's also one "bullshit we can believe in" Obama sticker.
21:51:19 <kmc> hm so you vote by writing a name or a number in the "N:o" circle?
21:51:26 <fizzie> A number.
21:51:47 <kmc> hm there's an election next month, maybe I should register to vote
21:51:59 <fizzie> There's a list inside the voting cubicle if you've happened to forget the number.
21:52:01 <kmc> oh today is the last day for doing so
21:52:02 <kmc> oh well
21:52:42 <fizzie> We don't have any voter registration here -- they just mail the papers to everyone eligible.
21:53:15 <oerjan> you americans and your silly vote registration and having to fill in your own tax forms
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21:53:28 <kmc> looks like I can vote for.... city attorney, treasurer, and assessor-recorder, all of whom are incumbants running unopposed
21:53:31 <fizzie> Not that the turnout is terribly great. There's a noticeable correlation with the turnout and how nice the weather is.
21:53:36 <kmc> and some Propositions
21:53:41 <oerjan> and checks, mustn't forget checks.
21:53:45 <kmc> two (related) of which are actually controversial
21:53:53 -!- augur has joined.
21:54:14 <kmc> regarding whether or not to build http://8washington.com/
21:54:17 <fizzie> Yeah, that's the other thing, you've got so many of them elections.
21:54:25 <fizzie> I don't think we average even one per year.
21:54:28 <kmc> (yes, SF zoning laws are so fucked that the only way to build anything is to get direct approval from voters)
21:55:18 <olsner> if you count the three parts of each normal election, sweden might even reach 3/4 elections per year
21:55:24 <kmc> and yet the people who want no new development also want rents to be much lower
21:55:30 <kmc> as though the supply of housing has nothing to do with the price
21:55:46 <fizzie> There's the presidential one with a 6-year interval, the EU parliament one with a 5-year one, the Finnish parliamentary elections every four years, and the muncipal thing every fourth year also.
21:55:54 <fizzie> I guess that averages out to little less than one.
21:56:03 <olsner> hmm, EU something, I guess we have those too probably
21:56:09 <Jafet> America, bastion of democracy
21:56:48 <fizzie> Though the presidential election often (almost always?) has two rounds.
21:56:50 <fizzie> > 2/6 + 1/5 + 1/4 + 1/4
21:56:51 <lambdabot> 1.0333333333333332
21:56:56 <fizzie> I guess that's a bit more than one, then.
21:57:36 <oerjan> we usually just have the parliamentary and municipal/county ones, unless you count church elections and the saami parliament which are only for some people.
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21:57:59 <fizzie> Oh, I think there's a church thing too.
21:58:03 <fizzie> But that's only for members, I think.
21:58:25 <oerjan> i could vote in the church ones if i cared, but i'm not saami.
21:58:41 -!- Bike has joined.
21:58:49 <fizzie> And also the Åland Islands hold their own votes for their governing body.
21:59:41 <olsner> > 1/5 + 3/4
21:59:42 <oerjan> referendums are rare in norway, usually just every time we decide not to join the EU. although the capital had one this year for whether they should try to get the winter olympics.
21:59:42 <lambdabot> 0.95
22:00:23 * kmc keeps forgetting that norway isn't in the EU
22:00:30 <fizzie> oerjan: We've had a total of two so far. (1931, to abolish prohibition, and 1994 to join the EU.)
22:00:49 <kmc> California has a tradition of absurd ballot measures
22:00:59 <fizzie> oerjan: I guess if we hadn't joined, we'd also keep on doing it. Though they're all very non-binding to the parliament, so it's mostly just a formal opinion poll.
22:01:19 <kmc> like Proposition 65
22:01:26 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:01:38 <kmc> which requires basically every object and location in the state to be labeled as containing hazardous chemicals
22:01:43 <kmc> quite cumbersome
22:01:52 <Fiora> kmc: my apartment complex has signs warnin it may cause cancer
22:01:55 <Fiora> *warning
22:01:58 <kmc> yep
22:02:23 <oerjan> i'm not sure if norway maybe had some prohibition-related referendum once. we did have prohibition.
22:02:27 <shachaf> Living in California may cause cancer, I hear.
22:02:29 <olsner> oh, is that the "known by the state of california to cause cancer" stuff?
22:02:32 <kmc> olsner: yes
22:02:59 <oerjan> fizzie: they're not binding in norway either.
22:03:17 <olsner> it's an odd sentence ... how does it know? can a state even have knowledge?
22:03:39 <shachaf> Can a window have knowledge?
22:03:56 <Bike> what if the window is full of tardigrades
22:04:02 <fizzie> Heh; 70.6% of the votes over the whole country in 1931 were for abolishing prohibition; but in Åland the corresponding number was 98%.
22:04:09 <fizzie> I guess they don't have very much to do out there.
22:04:40 <shachaf> Bike: if that's a pun i must be missing it :'(
22:05:14 <Bike> no i mean literal tardigrades.
22:05:17 <kmc> how long did prohibition last in finland
22:05:19 <oerjan> ok norway has had 6: one to separate from sweden, one to stay a monarchy, one to introduce prohibition, one to repeal prohibition, and two to stay out of the EEC/EU.
22:05:24 <fizzie> oerjan: Do you have a government monopoly on all things booze-related too?
22:05:26 <oerjan> (6 nationwide, that is.)
22:05:32 <oerjan> fizzie: yes.
22:05:39 <fizzie> kmc: 1919-1931.
22:06:04 <shachaf> Bike: well i meant a literal ledge
22:06:26 <fizzie> I guess that matches quite closely the US.
22:07:03 <Bike> yes, literal tardigrades in a literal window
22:07:05 <fizzie> "1907 to 1992 in Faroe Islands; limited private imports from Denmark were allowed from 1928" well it's nice to see some people sticking to their principles.
22:08:17 <fizzie> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/The_Drunkard%27s_Progress_-_Color.jpg that's how it goes.
22:08:20 <oerjan> norway was 1919-1925 so we got out a bit earlier.
22:08:25 <oerjan> oops
22:08:28 <oerjan> *1926
22:08:51 <oerjan> also in norway it was just hard liquor.
22:09:08 <kmc> Fiora: otoh my friends live next to the Middlefield-Ellis-Whisman EPA Superfund site and there aren't any signs up about that
22:09:22 <kmc> trichloroethane in the groundwater
22:09:37 <kmc> thanks to Fairchild, Intel, and Raytheon
22:09:44 <olsner> maybe if you pay someone they can forget a few things that were previously known to cause cancer
22:09:44 <Bike> now i'm remembering that there's a literal plague outbreak in madagascar right now
22:09:46 <shachaf> is there an EPA EPA Superfund site
22:09:53 <kmc> shachaf: probably, let me look
22:10:05 -!- shikhin__ has quit (Read error: No route to host).
22:10:41 <fizzie> oerjan: The 1931 referendum had three options; abolish entirely, allow only mild drinks, or keep as-is. 70.6% for first and 28.0% for last, but only 1.4% for the middle road. I suppose we didn't want to do something a bunch of Norwegians already tried out.
22:10:54 <Bike> «A team of researchers in India has retracted their 2012 paper in PLoS One on botulinum toxin for plagiarism — while blaming the journal for failing to use its “soft wares” to catch the plagiarism.»
22:11:15 <kmc> not sure actually shachaf
22:12:03 <Bike> would an EPA EPA Superfund site be a place where the EPA destroyed the environment?
22:12:12 <shachaf> it would be in East Palo Alto
22:12:17 <kmc> right
22:12:31 <Bike> ohhhhh.
22:13:02 <Bike> http://www.epa.gov/region9/superfund/cooley/index.html
22:13:25 <oerjan> finally got around to the last continent quote: "It lies on the Lassitude River, where an annual Regatta is held that attracts a lot of attention. Usually consisting of a race of wheeled boats pulled by camels on the sand, it was cancelled during the events of The Last Continent. It was felt that a river full of water made a mockery of the whole event."
22:13:43 -!- shikhin has joined.
22:13:44 <oerjan> actually that's not a quote
22:13:57 <fizzie> Bike: Somehow that reminded me of the Sacrifice Zones from Snow Crash.
22:13:57 <oerjan> but a wiki description. gets the gist though.
22:14:26 -!- nisstyre has joined.
22:14:57 <shachaf> fizzie: i hear lakka liqueur is popular in .fi
22:15:00 <Bike> fizzie: well that's basically what a superfund site is, except that nominally it will be cleaned up in the future, except the EPA doesn't actually have the budget.
22:15:05 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:15:25 <fizzie> shachaf: I... guess. I'd wager a guess it's not as popular as, say, Koskenkorva.
22:15:35 <Bike> Fiora: https://twitter.com/mc_hankins/status/392390498943381506/photo/1 "I know stats!"
22:15:55 <shachaf> fizzie: well actually i've never had the liqueur but i like the berries
22:16:06 <shachaf> and by popular i just mean i like them
22:16:41 <fizzie> shachaf: I'm sure it's popular-er here than in many other places, though. It's the kind of thing you'd take for dessert. (Perhaps even in the dessert.)
22:16:49 <kmc> oh yeah, the lake where I went sailing weekend before last used to be "544 acres of junkyard, hog farm, two substandard dumps, low lying flood plains, and a sewage treatment plant"
22:18:08 <kmc> http://www.shorelinelake.com/about/history.htm they imported 2400 tons of fill per day for 13 years
22:18:21 <Bike> fizzie: i actually live about an hour's drive from the most radioactive site in the united states, which is kind of weird.
22:19:02 <Fiora> Bike: which one's that?
22:19:15 <fizzie> The place I did my civil service year in, they distributed a paper to all homes officially disrecommending eating anything picked up nearby, there was an old lead processing plant nearby which was kind of an environmental disaster.
22:19:21 <Bike> site w, it's where they made the plutonium for the manhattan project.
22:19:26 <Fiora> SL-1? ohhh
22:19:33 <Bike> as you might imagine they didn't know how to make a reactor that wasn't messy as hell.
22:19:37 <Fiora> I guess you're probably still a bit far from idaho
22:19:55 <Fiora> wow. that is messy
22:19:57 <shachaf> > 2400*365*13
22:19:58 <lambdabot> 11388000
22:20:00 <Fiora> "53 million gallons of waste"
22:20:08 <Fiora> "25 million cubic feet of solid waste" @_@
22:20:09 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 24.0/20130910160258]).
22:20:11 <kmc> didn't know how, or didn't care because they were in a hurry and there was a war on
22:20:12 <olsner> how many squash courts is that?
22:20:29 <Bike> Fiora: i've seen pictures where there are just whole barrels of radioactive waste from the 40s sitting underwater without tops
22:20:36 <Bike> kmc: true
22:20:38 <kmc> or didn't know what the long term effects of radiation are
22:21:20 <Bike> i didn't think of SL-1. i'm right near the idaho border, but the lab is on the other side of the state, it seems
22:21:28 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
22:21:59 <oerjan> "In Sweden voters often voted for Donald Duck or the Donald Duck Party as a nonexistent candidate until a 2006 change in voting laws, which prohibited voting for nonexistent candidates." <-- my mind boggles at the idea that swedes are so law-abiding that the law made them _stop_ doing this. (i assume the votes would be discarded in any case, both before and after.)
22:22:21 <Bike> to be fair hanford is in one of the emptier parts of the country
22:22:43 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hanford_High_School.jpg but then,
22:22:44 <olsner> hmm, did that actually change the frequency of donald duck votes? I haven't heard about that law
22:23:04 <fizzie> There was someone wandering around the place I work at, looking for a nuclear reactor.
22:23:31 <fizzie> (The Otaniemi research reactor, which is about to be completely deactivated, is somewhere there.)
22:23:42 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Spent_nuclear_fuel_hanford.jpg ah yeah, there's the photo
22:23:50 <kmc> 'Marshall later conceded that, "I had never never heard of atomic fission but I did know that you could not build much of a plant, much less four of them for $90 million. A single TNT plant that Nichols had recently built in Pennsylvania had cost $128 million.
22:23:59 <kmc> Nor were they impressed with estimates to the nearest order of magnitude, which Groves compared with telling a caterer to prepare for between ten and a thousand guests.'
22:24:28 <Bike> engineers strike again
22:24:33 <kmc> more like physicists
22:24:44 <Bike> can't get my joeks straight :(
22:24:54 <fizzie> "There is a small research reactor located in Otaniemi, Espoo; a TRIGA Mark II, built for the Helsinki University of Technology in 1962." "TRIGA Mark II" sounds fancy.
22:25:28 <fizzie> The kind if thing you'd expect a family to have in the basement in an outdated sci-fi.
22:26:24 <Bike> TRIGA is the model at my school too :3
22:27:04 <kmc> "One of Groves' early problems was to find a director for Project Y, the group that would design and build the bomb.... Compton recommended Oppenheimer, who was already intimately familiar with the bomb design concepts. However, Oppenheimer had little administrative experience, and, unlike Urey, Lawrence or Compton, had not won a Nobel Prize, which many scientists felt that the head of such an important laboratory should have."
22:27:10 <kmc> that's a tough job requirement
22:27:17 <Bike> lol.
22:27:29 <kmc> "There were also concerns about Oppenheimer's security status, as many of his associates were communists"
22:28:04 <Bike> the number of communist physicists who worked on the project is a bit sad
22:28:49 <kmc> communism was cool back then right
22:29:01 <Bike> i mean, sad in that they apparently didn't think about the politics of what they were doing
22:29:30 <Bike> until afterwards when they all joined or started antiwar organizations, i mean
22:31:24 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SL-1 this thing is scary
22:32:46 <Fiora> "whoopsies our 3 megawatt reactor just output 20 gigawatts"
22:33:17 <fizzie> Every time I go to some slightly related page, I end up doing a Wikipedia binge on nuclear "incidents" (nice word).
22:33:32 <Fiora> me too, it's kind of like with plane crashes >_<
22:33:47 <Fiora> or like how someone links to something about stellar remnants and I spend a day reading about supernovae
22:34:43 <fizzie> Ending up in the Therac-25 page is also always a bummer.
22:37:36 <Bike> "Previous models had hardware interlocks in place to prevent this, but Therac-25 had removed them, depending instead on software interlocks for safety. The software interlock could fail due to a race condition." eesh.
22:39:25 <Bike> i think Goiânia is the worst i know of, it's like some kind of fucked up heist film
22:41:21 -!- augur has joined.
22:41:29 <Bike> "He inserted the screwdriver and successfully scooped out some of the glowing substance. Thinking it was perhaps a type of gunpowder, he tried to light it, but the powder would not ignite" for example
22:42:37 <fizzie> There's also the "demon core".
22:43:14 <fizzie> "While attempting to stack another brick around the assembly, Daghlian accidentally dropped it onto the core and thereby caused the core to go critical, a self-sustaining chain reaction."
22:43:23 <olsner> accidents involving people actually working with it seem less grave though
22:43:24 <fizzie> That must've been also quite a sinking feeling.
22:43:28 <Fiora> fizzie: and the Slotin incident
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22:46:21 <Fiora> the experiment slotin was doing is ridiculously terrifying, holding the reflector above the core with a *screwdriver*
22:46:52 <olsner> that sounds a bit like a stupidly constructed experiment
22:47:12 <Fiora> "Slotin, who was given to bravado, became the local expert, performing the test almost a dozen separate times, often in his trademark bluejeans and cowboy boots, in front of a roomful of observers. Enrico Fermi reportedly told Slotin and others they would be "dead within a year" if they continued performing it."
22:48:06 <Bike> did he die
22:49:06 <fizzie> Yes.
22:49:15 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:49:16 <fizzie> Within a year, I think.
22:49:23 <Bike> well done
22:49:43 <fizzie> Well, Fermi did have one of them Nobels.
22:50:44 <kmc> Nobel Prize for Not Dying
22:50:45 <olsner> I think one of my favorite accidents is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windscale_fire
22:50:53 <fizzie> (I mean, he died nine days after the accident; it's not listed very clearly in the source how long before that the Fermi warning was, but I doubt it was more than a year.)
22:51:26 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tickling_the_Dragons_Tail.jpg
22:51:29 <Fiora> just, wow
22:52:00 <kmc> BuzzFeed: 12 Most EPIC FAIL Nuclear Accidents
22:52:10 <kmc> animated cat gif for each
22:52:45 <fizzie> I don't think Finland really has had (knocking on wood) any proper nuclear accidents.
22:52:59 <Bike> Fiora: shudder
22:53:11 <Fiora> Bike: like, even knowing that's a simulation, it's terrifying to just look at that
22:53:18 <Taneb> Man, I love the fact that Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download exists
22:53:55 <Phantom_Hoover> criticality excursions are always fun
22:54:08 <Fiora> "excursion" makes it sound like some sort of trip
22:54:16 <Fiora> "where are we going today, ms. frizzle?"
22:54:22 <Fiora> "we're going on a criticality excursion!"
22:54:50 <Fiora> "awwwwww, I knew I should have stayed home today!"
22:54:53 <Bike> glad it's not just me
22:54:59 <kmc> bahahaha
22:55:10 <Bike> fizzie: did you have RTGs in the arctic or anything
22:55:22 <kmc> Real Fast Nora's Criticality Excursion 3: Shear Disaster Download
22:55:37 <kmc> Bike: oh yeah the Soviet Union left a bunch of RTGs lying around the far arctic unattended
22:55:42 <kmc> sometimes people steal them
22:55:43 <Bike> right, that's what i was thinking
22:55:46 <kmc> or try to cuddle with them for warmth
22:55:46 <Bike> get yo lighthouse on
22:55:49 <shachaf> y'all should learn about wavelet trees too
22:55:53 <kmc> one time they dropped one into a lake by accident
22:55:53 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/wavelet.txt
22:56:04 <kmc> but they also crashed a nuclear reactor into Canada that one time
22:56:06 <kmc> which seems worse
22:56:07 <Taneb> shachaf, I'm too sad that Google Wave didn't catch on
22:56:22 <shachaf> wavelet trees are unrelated to Google Wave
22:56:28 <shachaf> and mostly unrelated to wavelets
22:57:14 <kmc> shachaf: "Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8" pls
22:57:17 <shachaf> maybe they're related to wavelets?? they're a bit like a progressive encoding of a string in an arbitrary alphabet
22:57:22 <Fiora> Bike: I love how like. the US pu-238 (I think?) RTG fuel units are totally non-radioactive
22:57:27 <shachaf> kmc: :'(
22:57:33 <Fiora> so you could actually cuddle them (minus the whole, like, 500 celcius thing)
22:57:46 <Bike> hooray cuddles
22:57:57 <Phantom_Hoover> well they're alpha sources, aren't they
22:58:03 <olsner> is that RTG as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator ?
22:58:15 <Taneb> I'm thinking about next term taking an introduction to Dutch module
22:58:23 <fizzie> Bike: Not that I know of.
22:58:38 <Phantom_Hoover> and anyway an RTG is designed to absorb as much of its own radiation as possible, that's the whole point
22:58:42 <olsner> Taneb: are Dutch modules related to D-modules?
22:58:49 <fizzie> Bike: I was trying to Google for any nuclear mishaps in Finland, but only got some decidedly paranoid-looking rambling.
22:58:52 <Taneb> olsner, what the hell did you think the D stood for
22:58:58 <fizzie> Bike: "I have also made notice of that there is triangle shaped thunderstorms which reach Estonian. This isnt natural that they are triangle shaped. And also, always coming above the nuclear plant. So my theory is that nuclear radiation causes electrical phenomenom in atmosphere that raises serious thunder."
22:59:07 <Bike> fizzie: nice
22:59:10 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fueling_of_the_MSL_MMRTG_001.jpg
22:59:11 <kmc> triangular shaped radiation
22:59:16 <shachaf> Taneb: ngevD?
23:00:05 <Phantom_Hoover> does anyone remember the Great Reddit Nuclear Accident of 2012
23:00:15 <zzo38> Ask someone if they can understand the "sideways reasoning" puzzle I asked to Dungeons&Dragons game.
23:00:49 <Taneb> shachaf, fool, how nïave
23:01:18 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I wish I couldn't remember what I had for breakfast
23:01:53 <Taneb> (the milk had gone off... I don't have very good luck with milk)
23:02:48 <olsner> where did the milk go off to?
23:03:21 <Taneb> Majorca
23:03:23 <fizzie> Bike: Went to read of the Goiânia thing, hit the "the guard in charge of daytime security -- did not show up to work, using a sick day to attend a cinema screening of Herbie Goes Bananas with his family" bit.
23:04:56 <Phantom_Hoover> poor guy
23:05:36 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
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23:11:43 <Taneb> Aaaah I'm suddenly remembering some really awful Haskell code I wrote when I was just learning the language
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23:13:28 <Taneb> I want to travel back in time and hit myself and shout "Don't bother, this ways kind of really dumb"
23:13:41 <Taneb> But then maybe I needed the learning experience
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