←2013-10-21 2013-10-22 2013-10-23→ ↑2013 ↑all
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00:19:00 <Sgeo> http://www.jwz.org/blog/2013/10/today-in-computational-necromancy-2/
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00:20:00 <Bike> "simply transmit the program via the audio jack" is a pretty great phrase
00:20:29 <shachaf> audio jack of all trades
00:20:43 <kmc> nice
00:21:00 <kmc> yes I used to store my TRS-80 Model 100 programs as .WAV files on my parents' Windows 95 machine
00:22:46 <kmc> the MIT intro signal processing class has a lab where you transmit data using speaker and microphone: https://github.com/keithw/onepingonly
00:23:02 <Bike> cool :o
00:25:42 <pikhq> Nice.
00:40:52 <kmc> there's also http://www.araneus.fi/audsl/
00:42:40 <pikhq> Pity it can't do V.90.
00:44:26 <kmc> yeah
00:44:40 <kmc> i wonder what's the fastest "real modem" standard you can implement with a sound card
00:45:30 <pikhq> Almost certainly waaay faster than v.90. That's what winmodems *are*, so.
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00:47:50 <kmc> I'm having trouble believing that you can go from 44.1k 16-bit samples per second to way more than 56 kilobits per second
00:48:00 <kmc> i don't really know though
00:48:10 <kmc> do winmodems really offload everything besides the DAC/ADC?
00:48:24 <Jafet> > 44100 * 16
00:48:25 <lambdabot> 705600
00:48:34 <kmc> (I guess I'm using the word "offload" backwards of its usual meaning)
00:49:33 <pikhq> Common soundcards often surpass 44.1k 16-bit samples (for no good reason)
00:49:38 <kmc> well true
00:50:31 <kmc> but anyway this AuDSL does 96 kbps so clearly I'm wrong and it is possible
00:50:33 <Jafet> Yet distort the input
00:51:12 <pikhq> The reason for 56kbps is pretty simple, FWIW. The audio channel it's going over is (effectively) 7-bit 8k mu-law PCM.
00:51:13 <kmc> er I guess that just comes from 4-level amplitude modulation * 48 kHz sample rate
00:51:25 <pikhq> i.e. 56k.
00:51:32 <kmc> pikhq: the POTS is?
00:51:35 <pikhq> Yes.
00:52:08 <pikhq> POTS is *actually* 8-bit 8kHz, but the low bit is stolen for in-band signalling on a regular basis, making it hard to use.
00:52:10 <kmc> AuDSL doesn't seem to have any error correcting code
00:52:58 <kmc> pikhq: tricky
00:54:06 <pikhq> So yeah. 56kbps is the limit because that's literally the rate that POTS guarantees over digital switching.
00:54:25 <Bike> huh, that's neat to know.
00:54:28 <kmc> yes
00:54:40 <kmc> and the analog last-mile is good enough that you don't lose very much there?
00:54:44 <Jafet> Does that mean that you can read the signalling by taking the low bits off your telephone line
00:54:47 <pikhq> kmc: Yup.
00:55:12 <pikhq> Which is also why you only get 56kbps down. Because it only actually works when you can control the PCM coming out.
00:55:17 <pikhq> Jafet: I.. think so?
00:55:31 <kmc> what do you mean by that?
00:55:52 <pikhq> The end point of a 56k modem line isn't hooked up via analog last-mile.
00:56:23 <kmc> the end at the service you're dialing into, you mean?
00:56:26 <pikhq> Yes.
00:56:27 <Bike> maybe this will inspire me to try figuring out the ethernet on my FPGA board again
00:56:46 <kmc> okay, but I still don't see why that makes down different from up
01:04:24 <zzo38> Do you see the same problem I see with this chess problem? http://www.chessvariants.org/problems.dir/chaturangadehaas.html
01:07:29 <zzo38> Actually I think there is another problem too.
01:09:02 <zzo38> No, probably just one.
01:14:11 <zzo38> How can I pattern match rose trees, for example A(B C(D E) F G(H(I))) and I want to match A(? C(*) F G(?)) or whatever and then use the parameters received to do a replacement or some other program
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01:22:00 <zzo38> I have tried to ask anyone but nobody can know this yet.
01:24:21 <zzo38> Do you know?
01:24:43 <zzo38> I may also want to match it elsewhere in the tree, rather than only the top.
01:25:12 <zzo38> The tree is stored in a SQL table with one record per node, although if I can match in C that is good enough; such thing can be made to provide to SQL.
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01:29:58 <shachaf> HION
01:30:34 <ION> HACHAF
01:30:58 <shachaf> oh
01:31:04 <shachaf> idon'tparticipateinthat
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01:40:46 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/c2bc96625b70798ce816820ab3af7625/tumblr_muuav0Erwl1s1y5f6o1_500.png meanwhile in something bitcoin
01:42:03 <zzo38> Do you participate in not spaces day instead?
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02:00:00 <kmc> *international* caps lock day? sounds communist
02:00:39 <kmc> american caps lock day is 4 months later to avoid such associations
02:01:37 <kmc> Bike: the anarcho-libertarian sausage shop in Berkeley didn't seem to accept Bitcoin :/
02:01:42 <kmc> i didn't have the guts to ask though
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02:17:40 <Sgeo> :( DrRacket seems to like freezing when I make an infinite loop in what should be a different thread
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02:29:48 <Sgeo> Syncing on system-idle-evt seems to be working now, hmm
02:29:55 <Sgeo> Nope, just froze
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02:53:34 <kmc> aw man you can't "actually" jump to the legacy vsyscall page at 0xffffffffff600000 on modern Linux
02:53:41 <kmc> it claims to be mapped executable but this is a lie
02:54:05 <Bike> D:
02:55:16 <kmc> the kernel traps it and emulates the old behavior because MUST NOT BREAK USERSPACE ABI EVER
02:55:28 <kmc> this also means that the old way of making an extra fast syscall is now extra slow
02:55:36 <Jafet> "WAI"
02:55:46 <kmc> i guess a 100x performance regression doesn't count as breaking userspace ABI
02:56:13 <Bike> oh, wait, is this linux-gate.dso or whatever
02:56:24 <kmc> it's the old version of that
02:56:35 <Bike> oh
02:56:36 <kmc> which is just raw machine code mapped at a fixed address
02:56:37 <Bike> mysterious
02:56:43 <Bike> sounds sensible
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02:57:05 <Jafet> I wonder why the page apparently has three syscall instructions followed by rets
02:57:08 <kmc> this is nice and simple but also very useful for exploit writers, to have a SYSCALL; RET sequence at a known address
02:57:16 <Jafet> Isn't one enough
02:57:29 <kmc> Jafet: this is the stuff for implementing clock_gettime() / gettimeofday() / etc. in userspace
02:57:32 <kmc> so there's one per call
02:57:37 <kmc> it's not the generic syscall path
02:57:55 <kmc> on AMD64 you make a syscall using the SYSCALL instruction directly
02:57:59 <Jafet> Oh, the polling thing
02:58:19 <kmc> it's only on i386 that you go through the vDSO for all syscalls
02:58:21 <kmc> polling thing?
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02:58:34 <Jafet> Is this the one where linux writes the time into the page itself
02:58:41 <kmc> something like that yeah
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02:59:25 <kmc> anyway the legacy fixed-address thing is deprecated and so the code sequences were reverted to real syscalls in order to be less useful to exploit writers
03:00:25 <kmc> the new (not that new) vDSO is an ordinary ELF shared object; the kernel maps it into memory and then passes its address to the dynamic linker, which links it like any other .so
03:00:48 <kmc> and that means its address can be randomized as well
03:01:35 <kmc> I feel kinda dumb talking about this trivia because it's just trivia
03:01:59 <Bike> it's a cool thing though. i like linkers even if i don't understand then
03:02:10 <kmc> maybe I can't solve hard problems and I just collect trivia instead but both seem to be useful so w/e
03:02:44 <kmc> Bike: http://www.iecc.com/linker/ is cool
03:03:56 <kmc> i should (re)read more of it
03:04:39 <Bike> oh yeah i've seen that
03:04:55 <Bike> some cool php errors maybe i should actually read it instead of uh *looks at tabs* something about tunicates
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03:13:07 <kmc> it's weird that many of the people campaigning for affordable housing in SF also want no new housing built anywhere
03:13:14 <kmc> they just want all the people they don't like to stop trying to live here
03:13:30 <kmc> or they want the govt to magically make housing cheap without a tax base of rich tech workers to draw on
03:13:48 <kmc> (not that the current city govt would be remotely capable of doing that in an efficent way, anyway)
03:13:59 <Bike> did you see that thing i retweeted about silicon valley seceeding
03:14:03 <kmc> maybe
03:14:22 <Bike> it was pretty great that a journalist took it seriously
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03:21:58 <kmc> otoh it's not clear that building a bunch of new luxury apartments will help
03:22:12 <kmc> it might result in people like me moving out of the historically lower income areas, causing rents to fall there
03:22:24 <kmc> or it might result in more of us moving to the city from elsewhere
03:23:35 <kmc> economics of housing are fucking weird and it's one of the areas where simple supply/demand analysis is most wrong
03:24:22 <Bike> i actually know the few things i do about housing prices from a microeconomics class (since rent controls make for a good example)
03:24:28 <kmc> cool
03:24:31 <kmc> what things do you know
03:24:39 <Bike> less than you!
03:24:56 <kmc> not sure about that!
03:24:57 <Bike> mostly i remember that rent controlled apartments tend to have ended up in the hands of people who don't need rent control so much
03:25:07 <kmc> i have basically no formal knowledge of economics
03:25:51 <kmc> yeah i'm in a rent controlled unit and so are a lot of my fellow rich tech wanker friends
03:26:15 <copumpkin> :O
03:27:18 <shachaf> hi copumpkin
03:27:25 <copumpkin> hi shachaf!!!!1!11!!1!!!!
03:28:07 <shachaf> ⱳɦỏả, ɗủɗẻ
03:28:23 * pikhq finds rent control... weird
03:28:45 <coppro> ^
03:29:55 <Sgeo> Rent control?
03:30:37 <shachaf> copumpkin: how are the pumpkins
03:30:42 <copumpkin> don't have any :(
03:31:06 <shachaf> when is cohalloween
03:31:15 <copumpkin> beats me
03:32:59 <pikhq> Sgeo: Rent control is a scheme wherein governments mandate that a rent cannot increase by more than a certain percentage at a time.
03:34:05 <pikhq> Particularly nuts when utilities are included with rent.
03:34:41 <pikhq> And you live in New York State. C'mon, NY runs on rent control.
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03:35:06 <Sgeo> I'm still living in the apartment that my dad owns
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03:37:33 <trout> pikhq: SF is worst than NY
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03:38:56 <zhr0> http://www.thevenusproject.com/online-community
03:41:16 <kmc> what about it
03:41:34 <kmc> `rwelcome zhr0
03:41:38 <HackEgo> zhr0: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:43:42 <Bike> well, at least it's not porn.
03:43:59 <Jafet> I was expecting porn
03:44:35 <Bike> Apparently it involves cybernating.
03:44:56 <Bike> But seriously, spamming ain't cool.
03:45:49 <Bike> Books such as 1984 and Brave New World, and motion pictures such as Blade-Runner and Terminator 2 have spawned fear in some people regarding the takeover of technology in our society. The Venus Project's only purpose is to elevate the spiritual and intellectual potential of all people, while at the same time providing the goods and services that will meet their individual and material needs.
03:46:51 <Bike> I wish people wouldn't use nervous system analogies to refer to any distributed system.
03:46:54 <Jafet> Bike seriously, spamming ain't cool
03:47:23 <Bike> I'm not spamming. I'm sharing information with the world.
03:55:15 <kmc> bike seriously
03:55:24 <Bike> What?
03:56:52 <Bike> It's just one paste, that's not actually spamming, I hope
03:58:57 <shachaf> Save often! Floss regularly! Floss meaningfully! Floss athletically! Think happy thoughts! And above all, never forget: who is the Boss of you? Me! I am the Boss of you!
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04:32:49 <oklofok> Bike pls why u keep spammin
04:33:20 <Bike> ;_;
04:33:24 <oklofok> ;)
04:33:28 <oklofok> okokokokokoko
04:33:30 <oklofok> okokokokokokokoko
04:33:31 <oklofok> okokokokokoko
04:33:33 <oklofok> okokokokokokokoko
04:33:34 <Bike> help
04:33:35 <oklofok> okokokokoko
04:33:36 <oklofok> oko
04:33:37 <oklofok> okokokoko
04:33:40 <oklofok> okokokokokokokokokokokoko
04:33:42 <oklofok> okokokokokokoko
04:33:52 <oklofok> i have my first driving lesson tomorrow
04:34:00 <oklofok> eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek
04:34:09 <Bike> it's just like riding a bike
04:35:05 <oklofok> hot
04:35:20 <mnoqy> help
04:35:37 <shachaf> oklofok: i heard driving lessons in finland are basically impossible
04:35:40 <shachaf> might as well give up now
04:35:56 <shachaf> mnoqy: hello, mnoqy.
04:36:01 <mnoqy> hi
04:36:14 <shachaf> do you know about succinct data structures y/n
04:36:31 <mnoqy> probably not
04:36:39 <Bike> man i wish i was succinct
04:37:40 <oklofok> :(
04:37:50 <oklofok> i hate doing impossible things
04:38:20 <shachaf> well, driving in finland is not actually impossible
04:38:26 <shachaf> but braking is equivalent to the halting problem
04:39:20 <Bike> it's true, coming to a complete stop is just asymptote-chasing
04:39:59 <Bike> have you considered just adjusting your reference frame so that you're not moving
04:40:13 <oklofok> oh my god that was the best joke ever
04:40:18 <oklofok> shachaf's i mean
04:40:23 <Bike> thanks
04:40:25 <oklofok> Bike's i haven't read yet
04:40:29 <oklofok> i will read it now
04:40:35 <Bike> feel very good about my humor sense now
04:40:57 <oklofok> okay yours is um
04:41:05 <oklofok> ok 9/10 :)
04:41:14 <oklofok> that's also really good!
04:41:15 <Bike> you don't need to soften the blow
04:41:21 <Bike> i know i;m terible
04:41:25 <shachaf> Please remain seated until the plane has come to a complete stop. Thank you for flying Zeno Airlines.
04:41:56 <shachaf> now my average is 5/10 :'(
04:42:13 <oklofok> :')
04:42:53 <shachaf> : ⓜ )
04:42:57 <shachaf> : ⓝ )
04:43:01 <shachaf> : ⓞ )
04:43:03 <shachaf> : ⓠ )
04:43:06 <shachaf> : ⓨ )
04:43:33 <zzo38> I am unable to do impossible things. It may seem that some impossible things can sometimes happen, but I doubt it.
04:43:51 <oklofok> but isn't it the definition of impossible things that they cannot happen
04:43:53 <shachaf> zzo38: Well, it's impossible for impossible things to happen.
04:44:04 <shachaf> So most people conclude that they never do.
04:44:08 <shachaf> But that's circular logic!
04:44:34 <oklofok> things that have once been described as impossible may well be doable, but then that description, by definition, was wrong.
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04:44:47 <Bike> man i wish i was impossible
04:45:00 <Bike> apparently just braking me is though
04:45:00 <zzo38> oklofok: O, OK, yes I suppose you would be correct about that.
04:45:01 <shachaf> don't worry, Bike. you are
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05:03:43 <shachaf> ais[...]@gmail.com turned out not to be ais523 :-(
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10:06:10 <fizzie> fungot: Even you make more sense than these results.
10:06:10 <fungot> fizzie: maybe its just my lack of a standard.
10:06:16 <fizzie> fungot: Could be.
10:06:17 <fungot> fizzie: lol this game is awesome. fnord, c. a compiled scheme rewrite seems the best way
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11:20:38 <ION> http://www.reddit.com/r/lolphp/comments/1owwcz/pupesoft_a_finnish_erp_app/
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11:51:44 <oerjan> huh lolphp censors nicks?
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11:55:38 <oerjan> ok that was as easy to get around as expected.
11:56:11 <oerjan> i suppose it keeps out the chaff.
11:57:04 <FireFly> HION
12:04:43 <ION> HIREFLY
12:05:54 <fizzie> HireFly, a killer for hire.
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12:18:11 <boily> good croissant morning!
12:19:01 <boily> fizzie: I don't think I did.
12:24:32 <fizzie> Well, you should, to keep up with things.
12:27:18 <boily> my backlog has a backlog backlog, and on top of that I'm piling up this season's series.
12:27:57 <boily> (and I have a bunch of bundles of books and stories to read, sets of albums to listen to, and a bluetooth device to pair.)
12:42:05 <fizzie> At least there's just one of those.
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12:47:29 <boily> fizzie: one device that I still can't pair. why must it be so fscking complex?
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14:08:27 <boily> good my-machine-froze morning!
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14:29:16 <boily> what the fungot is going on. second crash.
14:29:16 <fungot> boily: do you need
14:29:22 <boily> fungot: yes, I do need.
14:29:22 <fungot> boily: if you aren't allowed to put fnord rye-bread in it's place in the world is the best
14:29:33 <boily> ...............wut?
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14:30:06 <boily> fungot: what has knäckebröd got to do with my computer problems?
14:30:06 <fungot> boily: it is implemented in bef86 though.
14:30:18 <boily> fungot: OKAY.
14:30:18 <fungot> boily: you need to be at the " object" metaphor. sue me.). it loses its
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14:35:13 <boily> ~metar CYUL
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14:35:36 <boily> ~metar CYUL
14:35:36 <metasepia> CYUL 221429Z 25018G34KT 8SM -RA BKN015 OVC035 09/06 A2968 RMK SF5SC3 RERA PRESRR SLP052
14:35:42 <boily> ~yi
14:35:42 <metasepia> Your divination: "Bound" to "Providing-For"
14:35:47 <boily> ~fortune
14:35:48 <metasepia> "I thought that you said you were 20 years old!"
14:35:48 <metasepia> "As a programmer, yes," she replied,
14:35:48 <metasepia> "And you claimed to be very near two meters tall!"
14:35:48 <metasepia> "You said you were blonde, but you lied!"
14:35:48 <metasepia> Oh, she was a hacker and he was one, too,
14:35:48 <metasepia> They had so much in common, you'd say.
14:35:48 <metasepia> They exchanged jokes and poems, and clever new hacks,
14:35:49 <metasepia> And prompts that were cute or risque'.
14:35:49 <metasepia> He sent her a picture of his brother Sam,
14:35:50 <metasepia> She sent one from some past high school day,
14:35:50 <metasepia> And it might have gone on for the rest of their lives,
14:35:51 <metasepia> If they hadn't met in L.A.
14:35:51 <metasepia> "Your beard is an armpit," she said in disgust.
14:35:52 <metasepia> He answered, "Your armpit's a beard!"
14:36:08 <boily> useless bot.
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15:00:25 <JWinslow23> What about the Dysfunctional programming language?
15:01:25 <mnoqy> what about it
15:01:39 <JWinslow23> It will be a new programming language I make.
15:01:48 <JWinslow23> Everything is a function.
15:02:24 <JWinslow23> The following could be a Hello, World program.
15:02:27 <JWinslow23> PRINTSTR("Hello, World!")
15:02:31 <JWinslow23> PRINTCHAR(10)
15:02:51 <mnoqy> are "Hello, World!" and 10 functions too
15:03:21 <JWinslow23> No, they are values.
15:03:32 <mnoqy> but then how is everything a function
15:03:37 <JWinslow23> "Hello, World!" and a newline are displayed.
15:04:08 <nooodl_> everything is a function except the values
15:04:18 <JWinslow23> Yeah, that's what I mean.
15:04:47 <mnoqy> so i take it functions aren't values
15:05:07 <JWinslow23> Uhh..yeah.
15:05:18 <JWinslow23> Truth Machine:
15:05:22 <JWinslow23> INPUTNUM(x)
15:05:29 <JWinslow23> LABELIF(EQUAL(x,0),"0","1")
15:05:33 <JWinslow23> LBLDEFN("1")
15:05:39 <JWinslow23> PRINTNUM(x)
15:05:44 <JWinslow23> GOTO("1")
15:05:48 <JWinslow23> LBLDEFN("0")
15:05:49 <mnoqy> is there anything interesting about functions? or by everything being a function do you just mean that you use the thingy(thingy,thingy) syntax
15:05:51 <JWinslow23> PRINTNUM(x)
15:06:07 <Jafet> I think it is "satire"
15:06:11 <mnoqy> can you define INPUTNUM and GOTO and LBLDEFN and LABELIF in your language
15:06:20 <boily> it looks like you are programming a calculator.
15:06:31 <JWinslow23> INPUTNUM inputs a number to a variable as an argument.
15:06:35 <nooodl_> mnoqy: i'm imagining things like
15:06:42 <nooodl_> mapping lbldefn over some values
15:06:47 <JWinslow23> So INPUTNUM(x) inputs something and stores it into x.
15:07:14 <mnoqy> nooodl_: functions aren't values. map would have to be a special form. but there are no special forms. everything is a function.
15:07:19 <JWinslow23> LBLDEFN("labelname") defines a label, and GOTO("label") works in the same way.
15:07:23 <nooodl_> mnoqy: zen
15:08:00 <JWinslow23> LABELIF(conditional,goto_label_true,goto_label_false)
15:08:09 <Jafet> map could be a "value"
15:08:13 <nooodl_> JWinslow23: how are they different from simple keywords, though!
15:08:17 <mnoqy> JWinslow23: i meant, can you write a definition for them in your language. not an english definition. can you write a function that does exactly what INPUTNUM does, but it's written by you, and not a special part of the spec
15:08:34 <mnoqy> nooodl_: see: 08:05:49 <mnoqy> is there anything interesting about functions? or by everything being a function do you just mean that you use the thingy(thingy,thingy) syntax
15:08:38 <JWinslow23> Yeah, you can define your own functions.
15:08:54 <mnoqy> JWinslow23: but can they do the things that INPUTNUM and LBLDEFN and LABELIF do
15:09:01 <nooodl_> mnoqy: i'm going to socratically approach the "these aren't actually functions" wish me luck
15:09:10 <JWinslow23> FUNCDEFN(function_syntax,"codeblockname")
15:09:26 <JWinslow23> That makes a function that does whatever is in the codeblock.
15:09:39 <JWinslow23> CODEBLOCK("codeblockname") defines a codeblock.
15:09:52 <JWinslow23> CODEBLOCKEND("codeblockname") end a codeblock.
15:10:11 <mnoqy> seriously, what do you mean by these things being functions
15:10:31 <JWinslow23> This is partly inspired by spreadsheet syntax in Excel.
15:11:07 <nooodl_> ok i'm caving in: JWinslow23: see, the thing is, these functions are not really functions in a meaningful way, they're just syntax that looks like function calls
15:11:11 <nooodl_> if you write
15:11:13 <nooodl_> goto some_place
15:11:16 <nooodl_> as
15:11:22 <nooodl_> GOTO("some_place")
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15:11:36 <JWinslow23> Then why does Functional exist?
15:11:37 <nooodl_> it's not suddenly a function! functions have real interesting properties
15:12:11 <elliott> dysfunctional programming is already a thing on the wiki. for what it's worth.
15:12:16 <JWinslow23> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Functional should not exist.
15:12:29 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/0x29A http://esolangs.org/wiki/Object_disoriented
15:12:51 <nooodl_> Functional makes the same mistake
15:13:29 <Jafet> I told you it was satire
15:13:54 <JWinslow23> What was "satire"?
15:15:48 <mnoqy> :^)
15:16:10 <JWinslow23> OK, then can anyone help me make something like Brainmaker?
15:16:50 <mnoqy> in what way
15:17:36 <JWinslow23> Like that, but 2 dimensional, maybe?
15:17:58 <JWinslow23> Also, how do you write ACTUAL code in Brainmaker?
15:18:06 <FreeFull> Anyone got any good resources for learning Clean? I want to see what uniqueness types are about
15:18:12 <nooodl_> ooh what's brainmaker
15:18:17 <mnoqy> nooodl_: tehz language
15:18:28 <mnoqy> nooodl_: you're familiar with tehz, right?
15:19:28 <nooodl_> i'm not
15:19:34 <mnoqy> then you're in for a treat
15:19:42 <FreeFull> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainmaker
15:20:44 <nooodl_> i like how it just starts talking about "cells", like,
15:20:53 <FreeFull> JWinslow23: You define a language and then write your code
15:20:54 <nooodl_> "you damn well know this is a bf derivative so let's just get over with it"
15:20:55 <FreeFull> Simple
15:21:30 <FreeFull> Heh, there is no interpreter for it
15:22:17 <JWinslow23> OK, I'll make one. HQ9+, maybe.
15:22:24 <JWinslow23> Be right back!
15:22:27 <boily> uhm. can't we just... like... I don't know, maybe, perhaps like delete all those languages-which-are-very-boring-variations-of-one-another, and languages-which-aren't-even-esoteric-much-less-anything-at-all-i'm-looking-at-you-poison?
15:23:13 <FreeFull> Brainmaker is unique enough
15:23:23 <nooodl_> i think i'd kill people if http://esolangs.org/wiki/poison disappeared
15:23:31 <mnoqy> my favorite part is the terminology tehz invented & made a page about to describe it. mostly the talk page. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Meta_Turing-complete it still hasn't been deleted
15:24:43 <nooodl_> "(unless you are an admin?)" nice
15:25:35 <mnoqy> oh apparently someone else invented it. i'll blame both of em
15:25:45 <boily> nooodl_: re: poison's disappearance: why would that make you violent?
15:27:01 <nooodl_> it's a beautiful page
15:27:22 <mnoqy> who remembers FURscript. who remembers Snack.
15:27:43 <nooodl_> esme... the language with the zombies,,,
15:27:49 <mnoqy> thats snack
15:27:54 <nooodl_> oops i w-- yes
15:27:57 <boily> who will have had to be remembered feather?
15:29:07 * FreeFull performs a Mathes eqaution
15:29:50 * boily backs away from that bunch of demented esötericians...
15:30:13 <elliott> nooodl_: I wasn't an admin at the time
15:30:24 <elliott> I'm not allowed to be that rude to people now that I am
15:30:30 <elliott> actually I am but I feel worse about it
15:30:33 <nooodl_> um you're -- yes
15:30:36 <mnoqy> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Apple3.14
15:31:00 <elliott> actually it's painful to read me being mean to people
15:31:16 <boily> mnoqy: what. the. fungot. is. that.
15:32:30 <nooodl_> mnoqy: nice
15:32:44 <mnoqy> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unusable
15:34:21 * boily runs far, far away “I AM SANE! I AM SAAAAAAAANE!”
15:36:40 <mnoqy> http://esolangs.org/wiki/6ix this language (with variations on syntax) seems to be quite popular
15:37:12 <JWinslow23> OK, I could not possibly implement the Q command, so instead, I made a Hello, World! program.
15:37:24 <JWinslow23> H : ++++++++++
15:37:28 <JWinslow23> e : [?'!>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-&]>
15:37:33 <JWinslow23> l : +
15:37:37 <JWinslow23> o : .
15:37:41 <JWinslow23> , : >+.+++++++
15:37:45 <JWinslow23> : ..+++.>++.
15:37:50 <JWinslow23> W : <<+++++++++++++++
15:37:55 <JWinslow23> r : >.++
15:38:00 <JWinslow23> d : .------.---
15:38:04 <JWinslow23> ! : -----.>+.>.
15:38:04 <JWinslow23>
15:38:08 <JWinslow23> Hello, World!
15:38:19 <mnoqy>
15:38:22 <JWinslow23> That was it.
15:42:53 <nooodl_> i have an esolang idea... "inspiration"...
15:43:39 <JWinslow23> Lay it on me...
15:44:09 <boily> oh, sexy esolanging action!
15:44:30 <nooodl_> i'll just implement it. i think it might be boring, but i have to write it down and do some stuff in it first.
15:44:50 <JWinslow23> Just make the esolang page, and I'll make examples.
15:45:03 <JWinslow23> Just go! Run as fast as your little CPU can carry you!
15:45:54 <Bike> wow, 6ix is even more boring than a brainfuck derivative, impressive
15:46:34 <boily> there should be a language so abstrusely boring for the records. something like a sort of “Able Line” of Esolangs.
15:47:01 <Bike> "I can't respond to this until you tell me if you've misplaced the '?'s." i like this guy
15:47:54 <Bike> boily: honestly i'm ok with sticking with http://esolangs.org/wiki/Most_ever_Brainfuckiest_Fuck_you_Brain_fucker_Fuck
15:48:21 <boily> Bike: oh. in that case, my wish is fullfilled.
15:48:28 <boily> `thanks Bike
15:48:33 <HackEgo> Thanks, Bike. Thike.
15:48:37 <boily> `thanks oklofok
15:48:39 <HackEgo> Thanks, oklofok. Thoklofok.
15:49:30 <JWinslow23> `? I
15:49:32 <HackEgo> i love monoids
15:49:40 <JWinslow23> `? colour
15:49:43 <HackEgo> Colour is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu.
15:49:43 <Bike> i actually have two ideas for esolangs right now, which is a first, but it'll be a while before i can write them up adequately
15:49:51 <elliott> Bike: a first and second, surely
15:49:58 <JWinslow23> Just go! Run as fast as your little CPU can carry you!
15:50:08 <Bike> no it's the first time i've had two ideas!!
15:50:12 <JWinslow23> Sorry to quote myself, but I'm excited.
15:50:17 <Bike> what are you excited about
15:50:27 <JWinslow23> The new languages!
15:50:37 <JWinslow23> really, I'm in a slump for ideas.
15:50:45 <Bike> well neither of them can really run on proper CPUs so uh sorry
15:50:58 <JWinslow23> What? Why?
15:51:19 <JWinslow23> What about nooodl_'s idea, "inspiration"?
15:51:30 <Bike> one involves real numbers and the other would technically need a dedicated physics simulator i suppose
15:51:44 <Bike> what's inspiration
15:52:50 <JWinslow23> To quote nooodl_, "i have an esolang idea... inspiration..."
15:53:44 <JWinslow23> I can make something that looks like a poem...
15:54:10 <JWinslow23> RhymeScheme, or Verses?
15:55:04 <JWinslow23> I have to go. I only got a few hours for lunch.
15:55:19 <JWinslow23> You need to get the pages on esolangs.org, though!
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15:55:41 <Bike> i don't even know how to deal with enthusiasm
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15:56:35 <nooodl_> wow i actually don't know how i should properly handle reading both code and input
15:56:38 -!- nooodl_ has changed nick to nooodl.
15:57:15 <nooodl> read a code file from a command line argument and input from stdin i guess
15:59:15 <Bike> ^bf ,[.,]!liek thse
15:59:15 <fungot> liek thse
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16:33:50 <nooodl> http://bpaste.net/show/WgkDbwNiGLAgVkQgWt1D/
16:34:09 <nooodl> http://bpaste.net/show/6VJTQXq9diM71mx3IQ4N/ hello world
16:34:28 <nooodl> http://bpaste.net/show/XqnBhVRiUArmBdZzNFT7/ a loop that prints the lowercase alphabet
16:36:15 <nooodl> i have no idea what this is capable of but writing anything in it is really annoying!
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16:37:37 <nooodl> oh those should be code[y][x] in the command descriptions, of course
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16:55:20 <fizzie> It seems quite capable.
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16:58:44 <fizzie> The kind of thing one writes a brainfuck translation to.
16:59:19 <boily> there should be an unbrainfuckable language.
17:03:05 <mroman> Madbrain .
17:05:15 <boily> helloman.
17:05:18 <boily> long time no see!
17:06:51 <mroman> long time no see you too
17:07:01 <mroman> I can't even remember if i've ever seen you at all.
17:07:44 <boily> probably. I managed to compile the language you were working on on my machine.
17:07:56 <mroman> oh
17:07:58 <mroman> burlesque?
17:08:07 <boily> that's the one.
17:09:09 <mroman> neat
17:09:20 <mroman> it requires a bunchload of haskell packages :)
17:09:58 <boily> that I know, you vile dependenter!
17:10:10 <mroman> well
17:10:16 <mroman> a lot of those are for statistics functions I think
17:10:42 <mroman> oh
17:10:44 <boily> (according to the Fizzian Graphs, we overlapped in Summer 2012 and February 2013)
17:10:44 <mroman> yeah
17:10:58 <mroman> and haskeline mtl and digits
17:11:03 <mroman> and web-encodings
17:11:14 <boily> web-encodings were hairy to get online, iirc.
17:11:19 <mroman> yes
17:11:23 <mroman> it's now deprecated :)
17:12:00 <fizzie> nooodl: http://sprunge.us/iSXR there's an (untested) translation from brainfuck to that.
17:12:16 <FireFly> Where are these fizzian graphs located?
17:12:27 <fizzie> FireFly: http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/
17:12:35 <fizzie> (Which reminds me, should update them.)
17:13:27 <boily> “Fizzian Graph”... doesn't it sound like the title of a thriller?
17:14:22 <fizzie> Graphs: uptodated.
17:15:44 <mroman> burlesque has gotten quite messy
17:15:50 <mroman> and still too many features are missing
17:15:52 <mroman> :)
17:16:14 <FireFly> http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/fig/charfreq_z_20y.png mhm
17:16:16 <mroman> wd{{ri}f[}m[f:sp
17:16:22 <mroman> that's still too long for my taste
17:16:38 <fizzie> FireFly: 2005 was well-known as the year of the z.
17:16:42 <shachaf> `olist (926)
17:16:44 <HackEgo> olist (926): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
17:17:08 <boily> źź :: źź
17:17:20 <nooodl> http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/people_presence.html who do i kill to get on this list
17:17:30 <zzo38> nooodl: You.
17:17:42 <mroman> well
17:17:49 <mroman> with the newest version it's wd{:ri}m[f:sp
17:17:54 <zzo38> Does include uppercase "Z", and does it count multiples if there is multiple "z" in one message?
17:17:56 <boily> nooodl: you need to get a quote homologated in the PDF.
17:18:02 <mroman> that's much better
17:18:18 <FireFly> Thanks shachaf
17:18:36 <zzo38> Is source-codes of this quotes PDF still available all the time?
17:18:55 <boily> zzo38: it is. private github repo :D
17:19:06 <FireFly> fizzie: there should probably be a terms graph for 'hth'
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17:19:25 <nooodl> boily: why is the repo private? (admittedly, i feel cool about being part of the cool club)
17:19:32 <fizzie> zzo38: It does include uppercase "Z", and it does count multiples. (In other words, it's (total amount of Z's)/(total amount of characters).)
17:19:34 <Bike> elliott's some kinda fucked up cave
17:19:54 <nooodl> (the Clubbe of Secret Wisdomme \LaTeX{})
17:19:57 <fizzie> FireFly: It wasn't really such a hot topic when the graphs were first made, but that's certainly true.
17:20:01 <boily> nooodl: because I can.
17:20:08 <mroman> also I couldn't convince many people to golf in it on golf.shinh.org :(
17:20:23 <elliott> Bike: I like how I stopped sleeping sometime in 2009 for a bit
17:20:27 <mroman> three or so golf
17:20:58 <boily> zzo38: packaging the source for you.
17:21:29 <zzo38> boily: Do you have raw links for source files so that someone knowing the URL can check for updates?
17:21:59 <Bike> elliott: inorite
17:22:15 <zzo38> (That way it is not necessary to do it manually)
17:23:19 <elliott> oerjan's is really trippy
17:23:30 <elliott> not even I can manage that kind of slant
17:23:44 <boily> zzo38: well, I'd say the github repo is your best source. it has update times and stuff and commits.
17:24:16 <boily> zzo38: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/the-pdf.tar.bz2
17:24:39 <zzo38> I don't have access to private github repo though
17:25:17 <boily> zzo38: I'd very much like to add you, but you don't seem to exist. it's very Canadian of you, but pour les besoins de la cause, you'll have to materialise an account.
17:26:09 <zzo38> Well, I don't have any nor intend to add some; GitHub always runs very slowly and sometimes crashes so I don't use it.
17:26:15 <mroman> ah
17:26:19 <mroman> tu parles francais?
17:26:48 <boily> mroman: il semblerait que je suis le francophone résident du channel. (d'ailleurs il faut que je convainque Roujo de revenir)
17:27:28 <boily> Koen aussi parle français, y'a Taneb qui nie parler français, d'autres qui font des horreurs avec google translate plutôt cocasses (I'm looking at you oerjan).
17:27:34 <mroman> I haven't spoken french in like 6 years
17:27:41 <mroman> I barely remembery anything.
17:27:44 <mroman> :(
17:27:51 <boily> at least you conjugate your verbs :D
17:27:57 <mroman> I studied it for 8 years
17:28:04 <mroman> 8 years for nothing
17:29:29 <mroman> on doit conjuguer les verbes.
17:29:42 <boily> don't you worry. French is a drug in which it is very easy to relapse.
17:29:55 <boily> je suis, tu es, il est, nous sommes, vous êtes, ils sont...
17:30:06 <mroman> yeah
17:30:17 <mroman> conjugation isn't really the problem
17:30:26 <mroman> you just learn the few regular ones
17:30:30 <mroman> learn a few irregular ones
17:30:38 <mroman> and assume everything you don't know is in fact regular :)
17:31:11 <mroman> well
17:31:18 <mroman> maybe I should start learning vocabulary again
17:31:33 <mroman> but currently I have to learn spanish
17:31:34 <mroman> so
17:31:42 <mroman> quelle domage!
17:31:49 <boily> ow.
17:31:51 <mroman> *dommage
17:31:53 <boily> «quel dommage».
17:31:54 <mroman> *quel
17:31:55 <mroman> se
17:31:57 <boily> dommage is masculin.
17:31:57 <mroman> *see
17:32:22 <mroman> jái oublie
17:32:29 <mroman> and my terminal fucks up unicode again
17:32:41 <boily> ~duck jái
17:32:41 <metasepia> --- No relevant information
17:32:58 <mroman> j'ai oublié?
17:33:02 <mroman> that oughta be correct
17:33:05 <boily> it is so.
17:33:08 <mroman> haha
17:33:23 <mroman> je suis rigolé
17:33:35 <boily> euh... attends un peu pour celle-là...
17:33:47 <boily> «je suis en train de rire», peut-être?
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17:34:12 <mroman> je ne sais pas :(
17:34:27 <boily> what is your original intended sentence?
17:34:53 <mroman> i'm laughing?
17:35:06 <boily> (I found that the most important thing to say when learning a language is “I forgot”. well, second most important after “One pint, please”)
17:35:09 <mroman> is je suis rigolé past?
17:35:18 <mroman> oh no
17:35:22 <mroman> it's with avoir
17:35:26 <boily> j'ai ri.
17:35:34 <mroman> and I forgot the distinction between parfait and imparfait
17:35:43 <boily> it means “I laughed”.
17:35:46 <mroman> and the conjugation of imparfait anyway
17:36:09 <boily> imparfait in French is a misnomer. it's used for just about anything except what should be true imparfait.
17:36:10 <mroman> tengo que estudiar mucho.
17:36:30 <boily> pienso que el español es más facíl que el frances.
17:36:42 <mroman> The way I remember it imparfait describes past conditions
17:36:43 <mroman> like
17:36:48 <boily> but, as you said, I forgot just about everything from Spanish.
17:36:49 <mroman> "It was cold"
17:36:53 <mroman> and parfait describes action.
17:36:57 <boily> «Il faisait froid».
17:37:01 <mroman> oui
17:37:10 <mroman> Il faisait trés froid cette nuite!
17:37:19 <boily> oooooh, un «nuite»!
17:37:23 <mroman> *nuit
17:37:25 <mroman> what's nuite?
17:37:25 <boily> spoken like a True Quebecker!
17:37:50 <boily> a mispronunciation dating to 17th Century French.
17:37:56 <boily> nuitte, frette, icitte, litte...
17:38:09 <boily> (night, cold, here, bed)
17:41:05 <mroman> you really say icitte?
17:41:21 <mroman> bizarre, monsiour
17:41:26 <mroman> trés bizarre
17:41:27 <mroman> monsieur
17:41:46 <mroman> My ultimate goal is to speak 4 languages
17:42:01 <mroman> German, French, Spanish, English
17:42:12 <mroman> and Swiss German, as it is my native language :)
17:42:51 <Gregor> I see you've listed the language in order of increasing utility.
17:42:55 <Gregor> *languages
17:43:09 <mroman> exactly
17:43:33 <mroman> that's why I said swiss german last
17:43:37 <mroman> because it's most useful.
17:43:56 <mroman> the most useful
17:44:14 <mroman> la choose le plus utile
17:44:20 <mroman> or however comparision were done again in french
17:44:34 <Bike> i thought the germans were mutually intelligible.
17:45:13 <mroman> hm?
17:45:20 <mroman> what's that supposed to mean?
17:45:31 <mroman> all germans understeand each other?
17:45:36 <mroman> I'm not even german
17:45:38 <Bike> that a german speaker from switzerland could understand one from germany.
17:45:52 <mroman> Bike: definitely not.
17:45:56 <Bike> shame
17:46:02 <mroman> unless they speak the standard german
17:46:06 <mroman> otherwise no
17:46:28 <mroman> even all german speakers of switzerland don't understand each other
17:46:47 <mroman> some dialects are just too different
17:47:14 <mroman> in some regions you just switch to the most common variation of swiss german to communicate
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17:47:48 <mroman> due to modernization and big cities those dialects intermix to new dialects
17:47:53 <mroman> which are much closer together
17:51:03 <mroman> and the ones that can't be understood by everyone are slowly mourir
17:51:24 <mroman> descending into the state of not being spoken anymore
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17:53:57 <boily> aaarughghgh! sudden meetings!
17:54:57 <zzo38> Why did you include my client address in the quotation of the quit message even though not included in the other messages? Would it be more clear just include the address once in the appendix or something like that?
17:55:24 <boily> zzo38: that's how it was logged in the `quotes. I can change it for your convenience.
17:55:53 <zzo38> I don't intend you to change it only for my convenience; I was simply asking why it is logged like that in HackEgo.
17:56:17 <zzo38> It doesn't seem the best way to do it as far as I am concerned. If you disagree you can say so of course.
17:56:19 <boily> if things are as they are, it's because they were so.
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17:56:34 <boily> that, and I'm one lazy bum.
17:56:42 <fizzie> Is it possible to find out what kind of things you can stream from, say, Netflix, without making an account?
17:56:57 <fizzie> I know they've got some kind of a "first month is free" thing, but still.
18:03:51 <nooodl> oerjan's people_presence chart kinda looks like it bifurcates in 2011
18:04:11 -!- _grotr has joined.
18:04:18 <boily> `relcome _grotr
18:04:22 <HackEgo> _grotr: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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18:05:13 <nooodl> <boily> dommage is masculin.
18:05:33 <boily> nooodl: oui? et? puis? que?
18:05:35 <nooodl> i didn't know this :(
18:06:21 <nooodl> les genres et moi... ça ne marche pas
18:07:10 <boily> à moins d'être né dans un milieu francophone, c'est à peu près certain que le monde vont faire des erreurs de genre.
18:08:22 <boily> anecdote: les gens de Montréal disent «le bus» (/lə.bʌs/), et à Québec c'est «la bus» (/la.bys/).
18:10:45 <nooodl> ouais, en néerlandais le genre est aussi un bon «shibboleth». les deux articles sont «de» et «het» mais les non-néerlandophones ont l'air de dire «de» partout
18:12:09 <boily> hm. il faudrait que j'apprenne le néerlandais. le plus proche que j'ai été était la fois où on était en vacances en famille à Aruba.
18:12:47 <boily> mais ça devra patienter. dans l'ordre, il faut que je me remette au japonais, que j'apprenne des bases de mandarin et de cantonnais, faire un détour par l'estonien, puis après ça on verra bin.
18:15:03 <nooodl> il paraît que c'est la galère, apprendre le néerlandais!
18:16:29 <zzo38> Maybe we should add some wisdom files for other esolangs too.
18:19:48 <nooodl> speaking of: a map of genders for countries in russian http://i.imgur.com/rEHizAI.png
18:20:41 <boily> the French version → http://i.imgur.com/PTZjh8V.jpg
18:21:16 <Taneb> I think a lot of the ones that are plural in Russian are plural in English too?
18:21:38 <Taneb> United States, United Arab Emirates, the Philipines?
18:21:41 <boily> zzo38: how? it sounds interesting.
18:22:09 <nooodl> i think zzo38 means `learn befunge (blah blah blah)
18:22:56 <nooodl> anyway: wow. what are all of these article-less countries
18:22:56 <boily> hmm... that'd deserve a split with its own chapter...
18:23:04 <nooodl> madagascar...
18:23:08 <boily> cuba.
18:23:12 <nooodl> yemen?
18:23:21 <nooodl> oh oman
18:23:25 <zzo38> Yes I mean add `learn befunge and whatever other esolangs they have
18:23:27 <boily> we don't say «La Cuba», just «Cuba».
18:23:45 <boily> what languages are there already?
18:23:50 <boily> piet, ursala...
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18:23:55 <nooodl> `? brainfuck
18:23:57 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs.
18:24:24 <fizzie> fungot: Write an entry for Befunge, please.
18:24:24 <fungot> fizzie: i prefer to get in...
18:24:29 <fizzie> `? fungot
18:24:29 <fungot> fizzie: but i'll wait 10 years and hopefully be able to contact you fnord from the for loop
18:24:31 <HackEgo> fungot cannot be stopped by that sword alone.
18:24:38 <fizzie> fungot: You're *already* in.
18:24:39 <fungot> fizzie: i'm just a beginner :) :) :) :)
18:24:54 <boily> `? chess
18:24:56 <HackEgo> Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation.
18:25:02 <boily> ↑ that one was fun. :D
18:25:34 <Taneb> `? go
18:25:36 <HackEgo> Go is a common verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in the strategic territories of East Asia.
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18:28:16 <FireFly> But how many points are said territories worth?!
18:29:47 <boily> ~duck Taneb's worth
18:29:47 <metasepia> --- No relevant information
18:33:49 <boily> Taneb: how many points are you worth? how tall is imhotep? what is the capital of Canada?
18:34:41 <Taneb> 17, 6 foot 8, Yellowknife
18:35:10 <boily> ...
18:35:31 <boily> that may be the most creative answer I have seen about Canada's capital...
18:36:17 <FireFly> fungot: what do you think is the capital of Canada?
18:36:17 <fungot> FireFly: you can kill yourself easily :) the two rules are pretty simple themselves
18:36:28 <FireFly> Hm
18:36:36 <FireFly> I think fungot thought I was asking about Go instead
18:36:36 <fungot> FireFly: hmmmm. when i did it
18:36:42 <olsner> oh, "Yellowknife is the capital and largest city of [...] Canada."
18:36:56 <olsner> I don't think I knew that before
18:36:57 <zzo38> And then you have other stuff in the `? too, not only esolangs you could make up a lot of stuff including Imakuni?'s pokemon cards (which makes your own active pokemon card confused), and the Dungeons&Dragons
18:37:39 <FireFly> zzo38: I think I've asked you before, but I don't remember the answer, so: have you played Pokémon Card GB2?
18:37:58 <zzo38> FireFly: Yes I have done
18:38:01 <boily> that “[...]” seems very evil. its aura emanates silenced and tortured paragraphs...
18:38:54 <FireFly> zzo38: oh, okay. I wish they'd do a sequel of it for the 3DS
18:39:03 <olsner> boily: thousands of informations of canada crying out in terror
18:39:34 <zzo38> I happen to like the old rules though; I think the new rules and cards damage the positional nature of the game. However, a thing I would like to see is Limited format play.
18:42:49 <olsner> my keyboard needs a bath :/
18:42:52 <zzo38> FireFly: Did you make up any other Pokemon card puzzle?
18:43:02 <FireFly> zzo38: nope :(
18:43:34 <zzo38> I would like to see, though. Have you seen my puzzle.5?
18:44:10 <FireFly> Oh, I agree about preferring older rules. I stopped playing the TCG around when the EX sets were first released
18:44:19 <FireFly> I don't think I have
18:44:41 <FireFly> zzo38: where do I find puzzle.5?
18:44:48 <zzo38> Look at it now if you want see if you understand it. http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_card/puzzle.5
18:45:59 <zzo38> I also wrote terminology.txt in the same directory
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18:47:58 <zzo38> I also mentioned different tie breaking rules which I prefer rather than the ordinary ones.
18:50:09 <zzo38> FireFly: I think your puzzle is economical. Mine tend not to be.
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18:51:16 <FireFly> I don't even remember my puzzle, haha
18:51:28 <zzo38> (Yours is puzzle.4 if you want to review it)
18:51:46 <zzo38> Can you figure out puzzle.5 yet?
18:53:49 <FireFly> I didn't really check it out yet, let me see
18:54:26 <olsner> fungot: do you bathe?
18:54:26 <fungot> olsner: i think i'm forgetting my japanese". fucking read what i've said about fnord i plan to ( fnord fnord) ( gcc version 3.3.3 ( suse linux)) 1
18:55:52 <nooodl> fucking read what i've said about fnord
18:56:05 <fizzie> fungot: You don't have to be so aggressive, dude.
18:56:05 <fungot> fizzie: i don't think that is an issue with my example code. the more projects try to emulate it or something like that
18:57:51 <zzo38> Do you like this game?
18:58:22 <FireFly> oh, hm, resistance against fighting
18:58:42 <zzo38> Yes, I put that in there on purpose.
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18:59:23 <FireFly> So the straightforward approach with using kabutops' first move on gengar is a no-go
18:59:31 <zzo38> (Also notice most of your own cards have the wrong energy; that is also on purpose.)
18:59:48 <zzo38> FireFly: Correct; it doesn't work. Try again.
19:01:45 <FireFly> Hm
19:06:12 <zzo38> Did you check all of the cards in hand?
19:06:27 <FireFly> Yes
19:06:46 <FireFly> Empty draw pile means I have to win this turn (or somehow put cards back in the draw pile), right?
19:06:48 <quintopia> the halting problem is solvable for FSMs and LBAs right?
19:06:58 <zzo38> FireFly: Yes.
19:07:28 <FreeFull> Clean doesn't seem to have a REPL
19:08:26 <FireFly> Oh, hmm
19:09:03 <boily> the halting problem is solvable for flying spaghetti monsters and logical block addressing???
19:10:07 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:10:19 <boily> fungot: who or what do you believe in?
19:10:19 <fungot> boily: are you saying that there's something odd about the irc protocol
19:10:26 <boily> fungot: yes I am.
19:10:26 <fungot> boily: stop apologizing. that's just m- and m-, and yes.
19:10:36 <FireFly> zzo38: I think I'm too tired for this :P but I think it isn't possible to solve this turn, so you'd have to grab the maintenance and put two cards in the draw pile
19:10:52 <FireFly> whose order somehow is unimportant
19:11:17 <quintopia> boily!
19:11:20 <zzo38> FireFly: Do you want some other kind of hint?
19:11:25 <quintopia> there was no package for me at andover
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19:25:19 <boily> quintopia!
19:25:21 <boily> I know :(
19:25:52 <boily> I still have the box.
19:27:53 -!- NihilistDandy has joined.
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19:33:48 <quintopia> then just send it to my home
19:34:08 -!- shikhin_ has changed nick to shikhin.
19:34:09 <quintopia> i won't get there for 2 more weeks, but then, you aren't going to send it by then either!
19:34:32 * boily is ashamed
19:35:24 <quintopia> i have your thank you postcard already...
19:36:06 * boily is guilty, and has pictures of an anime character receiving words through his heart
19:36:07 <boily> ow.
19:36:51 <boily> quintopia: tonight. I'm printing your address and having it delivered.
19:37:40 <boily> shall I andover it now, or should I forward it to your home?
19:37:57 <quintopia> i am no longer in me
19:38:03 <boily> oh.
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19:38:56 <boily> oerjan: welp. I screwed up, and now quintopia is angry!
19:39:10 <quintopia> angry?
19:39:14 <quintopia> ANGRY????
19:39:28 <quintopia> WHY WOULD I BE ANGRY???????!!!??!!???
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19:44:50 <oerjan> <boily> fungot: what has knäckebröd got to do with my computer problems? <-- let's just say eating knekkebrød close to a computer keyboard may not be optimal.
19:44:51 <fungot> oerjan: 2) session timeouts? :p ( heh, guess so. it's nothing like the fnord
19:45:02 <oerjan> boily: OKAY
19:45:21 <oerjan> i might get around to that part eventually, the logs are big today.
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20:00:26 <quintopia> oerjan: the halting problem is solvable for LBAs, right?
20:00:30 -!- asie has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com).
20:00:37 <oerjan> <mnoqy> so i take it functions aren't values <-- that _does_ sound dysfunctional.
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20:00:53 <Taneb> quintopia, yeah
20:01:09 <Taneb> The number of states they have is proportional to some function of the length of the program
20:01:20 <quintopia> so it occurs to me that something like "Super BILF" could actually have been implemented
20:01:42 <quintopia> if it had three outputs: 1) halts 2) loops 3) overflows memory
20:01:54 <oerjan> quintopia: yes. the space hierarchy theorem of complexity is basically proved by showing you can solve the halting problem for a machine with a bound on the space with a machine with a _slightly_ higher bound, proving that they are all distinct classes.
20:02:45 <oerjan> so linear can be solved by O(x^1.2), e.g. (or something like that, i don't quite recall how small the steps are.)
20:03:06 <quintopia> oerjan: and the proof looks like "simulate the machine and track its memory history, halt if it halts or repeats a state from its history"?
20:03:44 <oerjan> something like that. basically just modify the usual halting theorem proof, i think.
20:04:02 <oerjan> erm wait
20:04:04 <oerjan> i mean, yes.
20:05:26 <oerjan> the usual halting problem proof is modified to prove the classes are distinct. i assume, it's been a while since i read this stuff.
20:06:02 <oerjan> and i'm not sure i literally read that proof, but this stuff is afaik "obvious if you know the principle".
20:15:13 <oerjan> <mnoqy> who remembers FURscript. who remembers Snack. <-- who could _forget_ snack.
20:15:45 <Taneb> That reminds me...
20:15:55 <Taneb> @ask ais523 How's Underlambda going?
20:15:55 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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20:16:26 <Taneb> @tell Phantom_Hoover Remind me to send you the fortress
20:16:26 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
20:17:34 <oerjan> * boily runs far, far away “I AM SANE! I AM SAAAAAAAANE!”
20:17:37 <oerjan> `? mad
20:17:39 <HackEgo> ​"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
20:18:10 <Taneb> You know, I've got commit access to the dreaded PDF
20:18:22 <boily> Taneb: indeed.
20:18:24 <Taneb> If I could think of anything evil to do, I'd do it
20:18:41 <Taneb> Maybe put nefarious referrals in it
20:18:57 <boily> nefarious? what kind of nefarious?
20:19:10 <Taneb> Devilish
20:19:51 <boily> try me :p
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20:24:18 <FireFly> @ask ais523 How's Feather going?
20:24:18 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
20:24:36 <Taneb> FireFly, Feather is already completed
20:24:54 <FireFly> did it retroactively complete itself?
20:25:10 <Taneb> It was the first ever programming language, first implemented in 1821
20:25:33 <olsner> why did it retroactivate itself into 1821 instead of now?
20:26:00 <Taneb> olsner, ais523 thought it'd be funny
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20:31:36 <fizzie> "p must be an inetger less than n"
20:34:00 <boily> let's define a point P, and call it Q.
20:39:30 <fizzie> I don't know what it is about radio, but there's something that makes it fancy. (Been listening to websdr again.)
20:41:00 -!- boily has quit (Quit: dook dook dook dook dook dook dook dook dook dook...).
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20:50:27 <Taneb> Wow, tomorrow I'll see people like Neil Mitchell and Phil Wadler
20:54:22 <kmc> original gangstas
20:57:00 <nooodl> fizzie: i saw your brainfuck-that thing translation. looked pretty neat!
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20:57:13 <kmc> "Users of the Paperclip gem are encouraged to upgrade to the latest version of Cocaine." https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/ruby-security-ann/3XTGFbAJoTg
20:57:50 <kmc> reminds me of a folder I had back in my windows days "Alcohol 120% With Crack"
21:01:40 <Fiora> oh gosh, I remember that program back when I was a terrible pirate in high school I guess xD
21:02:09 <kmc> @yarr
21:02:09 <lambdabot> Aye Aye Cap'n
21:02:34 <shachaf> fun fact: @yarr and @arr are two different commands with a different collection of replies
21:02:41 <shachaf> fun fact 0 = 1
21:03:13 <FireFly> fun fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
21:03:21 <FireFly> There are lots of fun facts
21:05:09 <FireFly> @arr
21:05:09 <lambdabot> Yeh scurvy dog...
21:05:24 <FireFly> @yard!
21:05:24 <lambdabot> I'll crush ye barnacles!
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21:20:19 <kmc> does Linux have a syscall for bulk stat() of many files, I wonder
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21:25:10 <olsner> would that be worthwhile?
21:26:30 <kmc> well some programs (like git) do thousands of stats in a row, and the results should mostly be cached in the kernel
21:26:42 <kmc> so the system call overhead might be significant
21:26:45 <kmc> but i don't know really
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21:37:52 <olsner> for(int i = 0; i < 100000000; i++) syscall(__NR_getpid); takes 9s on my system (11 million syscalls/s?)
21:38:17 <Fiora> gosh, that's fast
21:38:28 <olsner> with fstat(0, &st) instead it takes 15s
21:42:29 <olsner> stat("foo", &st) on a (constant) filename in the working directory took 37s
21:42:32 <olsner> on a longer path with a couple of directory components, 70s
21:45:18 <olsner> so file name lookup is slower than system calls? (fstat might be special though - file descriptors could have a direct pointer to their stat data for example)
21:46:09 <oerjan> @tarr
21:46:09 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: yarr arr
21:46:20 * oerjan cackles madly
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21:46:58 <shachaf> hi oerjan
21:47:24 <shachaf> do you know about Elias-Fano encoding
21:47:29 <oerjan> no.
21:47:36 <oerjan> food ->
21:48:16 <Fiora> isn't file name lookup a system call? so like, it's a system call + some other things
21:49:30 <kmc> olsner: ~100 ns for a syscall is about in line with what I've heard, yeah
21:49:34 <kmc> SYSCALL instruction is pretty damn fast
21:50:11 <shachaf> imo SYSENTER
21:50:18 <olsner> Fiora: no, system calls usually take paths... and besides actually opening a file (which requires read access at least), there's no "resolved file name object" thingy
21:50:28 <kmc> shachaf: have you seen http://semipublic.comp-arch.net/wiki/SYSENTER/SYSEXIT_vs._SYSCALL/SYSRET
21:50:58 <fizzie> olsner's for loop test takes 3.716s real time (0.452s user, 3.256s sys) here.
21:51:03 <shachaf> I think so.
21:51:17 <kmc> well a "resolved file name object" would just be a file descriptor/description yeah?
21:51:38 <kmc> and there tend to be calls for those to e.g. fstat(), fchdir()
21:51:44 <kmc> mkdirat()
21:51:48 <kmc> mk_dire_rat()
21:52:05 <shachaf> Well, readdir() or similar doesn't give you a file descriptor.
21:52:50 <Fiora> olsner: so like, looking up a file name doesn't go to the kernel?
21:53:24 <shachaf> Looking up a file name in what?
21:53:40 <fizzie> Fiora: Names are not looked up separately, is I think the point here.
21:54:00 <fizzie> (Except for the aforementioned file-descriptor-taking syscalls.)
21:54:31 <Fiora> ahhh
21:56:01 <fizzie> I'm sure you could systemtap-or-something out how much of the time spent inside a single syscall is taken by name-lookup-related operations, but it's still happening inside the call.
21:56:55 <fizzie> (The syscall underlying readdir (getdents) is, incidentally, a bit more bulk-style interface, since it takes a struct linux_dirent * and a count, and returns multiple entries at one go.)
21:59:30 <fizzie> (And the dirent structure includes a type field for the block device/character device/directory/fifo/socket/symlink/file distinction, which I suppose could have been put there to cut down the number of stat calls necessary.)
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22:12:28 <olsner> fizzie: why are syscalls 3x faster for you?
22:12:39 <olsner> (fwiw I have a http://ark.intel.com/products/33923/)
22:13:52 <Fiora> maybe somethingwith like, XSAVE and XSAVEOPT?
22:19:08 <fizzie> olsner: I have no idea. (And a http://ark.intel.com/products/75047/)
22:21:07 <fizzie> I'd test on the workstation at work too, but it's got 400 CPU% of MATLAB whirring, and I'm afraid that'd skew the result somehow.
22:21:10 <Fiora> XSAVEOPT is only on sany bridge and ltaer I think? maybe that has something to do with it
22:21:30 <Fiora> *sandy bridge and later
22:22:31 <Fiora> it's like, a thing that only saves the parts of the processor state that have been used?
22:22:35 <fizzie> Zany Bridge, Intel's rehash for clowns.
22:22:46 <Fiora> I think
22:23:29 <olsner> fizzie: that's nice and newer, maybe they optimalized something
22:27:20 <Bike> current matlab joke: mat=ones(s1,s2); [~,j] = find(mat==1); for i=i:length(j): ...code that doesn't touch j but assigns to mat(:, i) every iteration... end
22:29:25 <olsner> afaik, linux does the lazy saving and restoring of floating point registers so I think it shouldn't be a big part of the syscall overhead
22:29:54 <olsner> though it might've changed recently (there was some discussion about dumping it, since it causes an extra interrupt when you do need to save/restore them)
22:30:00 <Fiora> does that work for like, SSE/AVX registers though?
22:30:09 <Fiora> I don't know if there's a way for the OS to know whether they've been changed
22:30:44 <kmc> i think they count as touching floating point
22:31:06 <Bike> and it branches twice every iteration to check how far in the iteration it is because of course it does
22:31:08 <Fiora> like I mean is there a way for the kernel to know if an SSE register was changed by user code...?
22:31:14 <fizzie> Bike: That ones-and-find-==1 idiom is kind of strange.
22:31:14 <olsner> when switching process you set a flag that disallows usage of fpu/sse/avx/etc registers, then when the new process tries to use them you get an interrupt
22:31:21 <Fiora> ooh
22:31:49 <Bike> fizzie: yeah so's the part where it writes m×n columns of an n column matrix.
22:32:01 <Bike> is matlab just suppressing all those bad accesses
22:32:05 <Fiora> http://lwn.net/Articles/391972/ is this related?
22:32:13 <Bike> because, like, i'm not cool enough to know about them.
22:32:44 <fizzie> Bike: It should complain. I guess there mst be Circumstances.
22:33:07 <Bike> well i replaced it with for i=i:s2 and i don't see any difference.
22:33:10 <Bike> damned thing
22:33:34 <fizzie> You can extend a matrix silently.
22:33:44 <Bike> it's not extending though, it's just ugh
22:33:47 <fizzie> >> x = [1 2 3]
22:33:47 <fizzie> x =
22:33:47 <fizzie> 1 2 3
22:33:47 <fizzie> >> x(5)=2
22:33:47 <fizzie> x =
22:33:49 <fizzie> 1 2 3 0 2
22:34:29 <fizzie> (It's a very slow thing to not preallocate, though.)
22:34:48 <Bike> yeah i'm gonna be fixing up some preallocations later. apparently this isn't extending it though.
22:35:52 <Bike> which is... mysterious, since it sure looks like it ought to be doing so.
22:36:13 <Bike> oh, no, i see. it works because of the branching.
22:36:42 <Bike> so, it does m×n iterations, but past n it so happens that there's never an assignment to mat(:, i).
22:36:53 <Bike> so i guess it can just spin that whole time. cool
22:40:07 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> anecdote: les gens de Montréal disent «le bus» (/lə.bʌs/), et à Québec c'est «la bus» (/la.bys/). <-- did you know trondheim is the only [citation needed] city in norway where the word "bil" (en:car) is feminine.
22:40:07 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:46:44 <olsner> Fiora: it gets a bit interesting on multiprocessor machines though - you could find cpu0 trying to resume a thread whose fpu state is on cpu1 (and was never saved to memory)
22:46:52 <oerjan> @tell boily also it's _only_ in the city, not the rest of the region.
22:46:52 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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22:56:30 <Fiora> olsner: huh, how does that work?
22:57:01 <olsner> you mean how to work around it, or how the situation happens?
22:58:13 <Fiora> like, how they work around it?
22:58:26 <Fiora> I thought the fpu states were saved in memory with xsave or something (?)
23:00:18 <olsner> it seems that linux originally just disabled the lazy fpu state thing for SMP, now they might send an interrupt to the processor it needs fpu state from
23:08:34 <oerjan> <olsner> my keyboard needs a bath :/ <-- http://www.mezzacotta.net/postcard/?comic=1721
23:09:12 <oerjan> (no there's not supposed to be a picture.)
23:09:54 <olsner> is the page broken or is there's really not supposed to be a picture?
23:10:44 * oerjan taps his fingers
23:11:08 <oerjan> there's really not supposed to be a picture.
23:13:41 <FireFly> http://www.mezzacotta.net/postcard/about.php now I'm sad
23:14:10 <oerjan> FireFly: i recommend reloading.
23:14:52 <FireFly> now I'm confused
23:14:58 <olsner> I'm confused and somewhat upset by this page
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23:15:49 <fizzie> I'm confused that you're confused about it; it's not like the "comic" has not been discussed here previously.
23:16:02 <olsner> I haven't seen it before
23:16:54 <Bike> i've never seen it before either.
23:17:21 <fizzie> Didn't I even do some plots about a weird random number generation details for the about page, or something?
23:17:24 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
23:18:02 <oerjan> hm quite possible. i'm sure we tried to discover all the variations.
23:18:27 <fizzie> And then I asked on the forums, and got some sort of a response.
23:18:32 <fizzie> It was time-related, I think.
23:18:41 <fizzie> And perhaps a non-uniform distribution.
23:18:54 <oerjan> ah yes you did.
23:19:12 <fizzie> (My sprunge pastes about it have died, though.)
23:19:24 <oerjan> how rude.
23:19:27 <FireFly> I guess it was completely coincidental then that the first thing I got on the about page was "On behalf of [list of companies] all images on this website has been taken down" then
23:19:33 <FireFly> s/then$//
23:19:40 <shachaf> s/ $//
23:19:42 <zzo38> Anyone figure out the puzzle.5 yet? I asked earler but have to leave so now I am elsewlere so could not answer completely
23:19:43 <shachaf> hth
23:19:46 <FireFly> s/shachaf//
23:19:50 <Bike> FireFly: i got the same one, excitingly enough.
23:19:51 -!- shachaf has left.
23:20:05 <FireFly> s/.*/shachaf/
23:20:55 <oerjan> FireFly: that one is itself inspired by http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1526.html
23:21:17 <oerjan> (you might note the date on that.)
23:21:25 <fizzie> I put a 10 second interval in my getter script, and got an almost repeating sequence out of the 11 different variants, because the randomness was based on the second-resolution timestamp, is I think what happened.
23:21:37 <FireFly> Oh
23:23:06 <fizzie> http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/mezza.png -- frequencies of the 11 different variant.
23:23:57 <Bike> now... enhance
23:24:11 <fizzie> http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/mezzoseq.png -- and that's the sequence of variants.
23:24:26 <fizzie> (Permuted appropriately.)
23:26:18 <fizzie> Okay, I caught up in the log. The selection "algorithm" turned out to be "time()%11", and the hypothesis for uneven distribution was that... actually, never mind, it's not all that interesting.
23:26:44 <fizzie> The point, however, was that everyone should've noticed this was going on, because it was spread out over several days.
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23:27:15 <elliott> I want to know the h ypothesis.
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23:30:36 <fizzie> I had my sampling done with a "while true; do fetch; sleep 10; done" loop, and some variants of the page were larger than others so therefore had higher likelihood of causing a longer-than-appropriate delay (and consequently a discontinuity in the otherwise ordered sequence of variants received), which skewed the distribution.
23:33:38 <Phantom_Hoover> what are the haps etcl
23:33:44 <Phantom_Hoover> *etc,
23:33:46 <Phantom_Hoover> *etc.
23:33:57 <olsner> `? haps
23:33:59 <HackEgo> haps? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:34:42 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell Taneb remind me to remind you to remind you to give me the fortress when i'm online
23:34:45 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:34:46 <fizzie> @wn hops
23:34:47 <lambdabot> *** "hops" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
23:34:49 <lambdabot> hops
23:34:51 <lambdabot> n 1: twining perennials having cordate leaves and flowers
23:34:53 <lambdabot> arranged in conelike spikes; the dried flowers of this
23:34:55 <lambdabot> plant are used in brewing to add the characteristic bitter
23:34:57 <lambdabot> taste to beer [syn: {hop}, {hops}]
23:35:04 <fizzie> Those are the hops.
23:35:09 <fizzie> Oh, haps. Sorry.
23:36:57 <oerjan> `? hips
23:36:59 <HackEgo> hips? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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23:37:34 <fizzie> `? NIPS
23:37:36 <HackEgo> NIPS? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:37:41 <fizzie> (It's a conference.)
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