00:11:31 <shachaf> Ox0dea: printing them out doesn't compress newlines very well at all hth
00:17:38 <boily> Phellontom_Hoover. what makes you say that?
00:21:04 <oren> maybe his bag of bones hands?
00:22:23 <Ox0dea> shachaf: You're right, but A4 paper can fit 842 lines at 1pt.
00:22:46 <Ox0dea> My largest Whitespace program only contains 211 lines.
00:23:19 <mauris__> hey, is there some way to download the entire wiki?
00:23:49 <Ox0dea> mauris__: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Exporting_all_the_files_of_a_wiki
00:24:55 <oren> also his baggy eyes
00:26:08 <oren> although baggy eyes are also common among slavs
00:26:08 <mauris__> fizzie, whence the 'u' in 'mjukvaruproblem'?
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00:30:07 <boily> helooodl. you're Swedish?
00:30:57 <oren> in general though that dude is pale and thin and looks like he's never had a tan. so he has to be from somewhere up north...
00:32:10 <boily> oerjan: as an Up North person, do you corroborate oren's assertion?
00:33:01 <boily> fizzie: I'd ask you, but I fear you're an Even More Up North Like Really North You Wouldn't Believe How Far North person.
00:35:01 <mauris> boily: jag har b?rjat l?ra mig lite svenska, men inte v?ldigt allvarligt.
00:36:15 <mauris> it's a pretty language! i like the rhythm. i have absolutely no connection to sweden
00:36:15 <boily> you ain't Swedish! your question marks lack umlauts!
00:39:05 <fizzie> AIUI, oerjan was north of me even back when I was living in Finland.
00:39:18 <mauris> ais523: i guess to make a really good Huffman dictionary, you need a large corpus of which commands are most common
00:40:00 <Ox0dea> mauris: That doesn't seem like the sort of thing you'd need a heuristic for, though.
00:40:02 <ais523> but even a reasonably bad Huffman dictionary is still often decent
00:40:09 <ais523> or you can use some sort of adaptive huffman
00:42:29 <ais523> haha, I love the edit summary on http://esolangs.org/wiki/International_Esolang_Design_Competition
00:42:35 <ais523> can we keep this page around just for the history
00:42:53 <mauris> i originally wanted to do something like this for gs2. currently all commands are a byte, but i was planning on like, having some of them be 5 bits, some 10, etc
00:43:12 <mauris> however i didn't feel comfortable just making up numbers for the frequencies :(
00:43:24 <mauris> plus huffman codes don't look very easily extendable?
00:48:35 <fizzie> mauris: I don't speak Swedish all that much/well. But I think the special noun forms (including last-vowel elision/mutation) used as "modifiers" are probably remnants from something or other. At any rate, it happens. vara -> varuhus, hälsa -> hälsofarlighet.
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00:49:33 <oerjan> <mauris__> fizzie, whence the 'u' in 'mjukvaruproblem'? <-- swedish seems to do that when forming compounds with -a nouns (originally weak feminine ones), i think it's from the old norse genitive, see e.g. the more well-preserved icelandic declension https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vara#Noun_5
00:51:34 <oerjan> <boily> oerjan: as an Up North person, do you corroborate oren's assertion? <-- only for geeks i think, everyone else seems to have a tan these days. in my youth i occasionally tried, sometimes with catastrophic results.
00:51:45 <fizzie> oerjan: Sometimes they drop the vowel. ficka -> ficktjuv.
00:52:11 <oren> Hmm.. the furthest north place I've been in Canada is RouynNoranda which has the same latitude as, like, Paris. Europe's climate is bullshit
00:55:11 <boily> oren: AAAAAAAAAAAH!
00:55:19 <boily> what the fungot where you doing in Rouin?
00:55:19 <fungot> boily: no wonder you're a bored college guy, you know
00:55:37 <boily> fungot: I don't go to college anymore. I got bored.
00:55:37 <fungot> boily: last time i checked lisppaste is at http://www.common-lisp.net/ paste/ results/ fnord this year and i might
00:55:47 * oerjan cannot look at the word "varuhus" without thinking about Karl-Bertil Jonssons julafton
00:56:18 <oren> boily: I was wtching fireworks wiht my dad and my uncle?
00:57:05 <oren> I don't really remember the reasons we were there
00:57:23 <oren> other than my dad grew up there
00:57:23 <oerjan> ("Jag har skänkt lite glädje åt dessa olyckliga som inte äger något varuhus")
00:57:53 <boily> oren: good reason. so you're half Québécois?
00:58:07 <fizzie> http://goo.gl/maps/X8BWi is probably about the northest I've been. I don't recall where exactly we went on another Lapland trip.
00:58:14 <oren> more like a quarter.
00:58:34 <oren> my grandma is from Enlgand
00:59:01 <oerjan> fizzie: i suppose i have no real idea why norwegian sometimes inserts an -s- (old genitive too) and sometimes doesn't.
01:00:05 <boily> a quarterbécois, then.
01:00:09 * oerjan laughs and points at oren from the gulf stream
01:01:27 <izabera> have you guys ever used lex/yacc?
01:02:07 * oerjan has looked at it, but possibly not used...
01:02:16 <ais523> and know quite a lot about yacc
01:02:30 <oerjan> ah yes ais523 is writing a replacement
01:02:45 <oren> hmm myndzi has a bigger dick in my font
01:03:06 <izabera> i'd rather not receive dicks from myndzi anymore -_-
01:03:16 <izabera> ok i need help to parse something like this
01:03:35 <ais523> izabera: with escape syntax and all that?
01:03:37 <izabera> "inside strings we can embed brackets( )"
01:03:56 <izabera> (do you call those parentheses or brackets?)
01:04:10 <ais523> ( and ) are normally called parentheses, to distinguish them from [ and ]
01:04:25 <ais523> although all of ( ) [ ] can probably legitimately be called brackets
01:04:38 <ais523> you normally see "parenthesis" or "paren" among programmers for disambiguation purposes
01:04:47 <ais523> (with "square bracket" used for [ and ] if it needs to be unambiguous)
01:04:53 <oren> I call () round brackets, [] square brackets, {} curly brackets
01:05:04 <izabera> "the part inside these (parentheses) is a different quoting context"
01:05:20 <izabera> so i can have something like this: "foo ( "bar baz" ) bat"
01:05:45 <izabera> and inside parenteses you can have other nested parentheses
01:05:52 <oren> so you have to match "foo( )bar( )baz"
01:06:06 <oren> so start by mtahing "foo"
01:06:15 <oren> then match "bar(
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01:06:40 <oren> each as separate tokens
01:06:44 <izabera> it's kinda hard, i'm a beginner
01:07:03 <izabera> ah it looks like $( ) in shell script
01:07:19 <izabera> not sure if you know what i mean
01:07:58 <oren> so parse "foo( )baz" as a STRING_ENDING_IN_ROUND_BRACKET followed by a STRING_STARTING_WITH_ROUND_BRACKET
01:08:31 <ais523> oh, I actually like oren's solution
01:08:47 <ais523> also because terminals in yacc are uppercase by convention
01:08:49 <oren> TOKEN_NAMES_ARE_IN_SNAKE_CPAS_BY_CONVENTION
01:09:54 <izabera> ok lemme try and i'll report back my progresses
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01:20:33 <Ox0dea> izabera: Are you trying to use regular expressions to parse a recursive grammar?
01:21:17 <izabera> i'm trying to parse a recursive grammar, yes
01:21:58 <izabera> i know the limitations of regex
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01:24:28 <oren> that's why the "foo( "bar" )baz" each have to be separate tokens
01:27:45 <ais523> Ox0dea: we're trying to parse a recursive grammar using tools that are intended to parse recursive grammars
01:28:01 <ais523> the problem is that it's one that doesn't have a simple lexing/parsing divide
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01:49:01 <mauris> oerjan, wow i see you found my SO question
01:49:43 <shachaf> http://stackoverflow.com/q/32106435 ?
01:51:02 <mauris> i should go hack at that some more. maybe i can bring out the -XTypeSynonymInstances or something terrifying like that
01:53:19 <mauris> wowowow, -XNewtypeDeriving??
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02:00:03 <oerjan> you mean GeneralizedNewtypeDeriving
02:00:38 <mauris> yes, this is even more magic
02:01:07 <mauris> so now i just try to list every typeclass that exists on earth in this `deriving (...)`??
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02:06:03 <oerjan> shachaf: i think mauris's SO picture beats us both in lifelikeness hth
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02:07:56 <oren> Ok I changed my cgi script to ouput a mtime so that things will be cached
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02:08:53 <mauris> deriving (Bounded, Enum, Eq, Foldable, Fractional, Functor, Integral, Monoid, Num, Ord, Read, Real, RealFrac, Show, Traversable)
02:10:11 <mauris> this is silly. i want to derive (*)
02:10:12 <oerjan> don't forget Applicative hth
02:10:40 <mauris> sadly i need to write that one myself because it has fancy constraints
02:11:00 <oerjan> shachaf: mauris thinks Monoid is fancy
02:11:32 <ais523> are options for "deriving" pluggable? or do they have to be built into the compiler?
02:11:47 <shachaf> mauris: monoids are so easy hth
02:11:58 <oerjan> ais523: they're pluggable with the new DeriveAnyClass extension
02:12:12 <shachaf> You're pretty limited in the instances you can derive with that.
02:12:40 <HackEgo> Monoids are the easy version of categories.
02:12:48 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with a single object.
02:14:07 * oerjan thinks shopping is harder
02:14:22 <Ox0dea> Shopping is hard. Let's go mathing.
02:15:30 <oerjan> edwardk: do you have anything equivalent to newtype Const3 a b c = Const3 { getConst3 :: a } , twh
02:15:38 <mauris> Const3 is reducing basically every instance to monoids
02:16:21 <mauris> instance Monoid m => Category (Const3 m) where
02:16:22 <mauris> Const3 x . Const3 y = Const3 (mappend x y)
02:16:52 <mauris> what is hard though: checking applicative laws
02:16:54 <shachaf> That's not the "category with one object" thing, though.
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02:18:06 <mauris> hmmm, i guess it isn't
02:18:07 <oerjan> shachaf: well it's equivalent to it, maybe
02:18:19 <oerjan> if you take the skeleton
02:18:20 <shachaf> oerjan: well, it has a whole bunch of different objects
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02:18:44 <shachaf> oh, equivalent in that sense
02:19:21 <shachaf> what are the arrows between two different objects?
02:19:23 <Ox0dea> oerjan: Taking skeletons is illegal in many jurisdictions.
02:19:32 <oerjan> mauris: you have Applicative and Category, so you should have Arrow hth
02:20:41 <mauris> yes i'm looking for more (k -> k -> *) -> Constraint thingies, arrow sounds easy
02:21:06 <oerjan> oh hm i'm wondering...
02:21:29 <oerjan> :k Kleisli (Writer Int)
02:26:29 <oerjan> hm my search seems to have hit one of zzo38's haskell packages
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02:26:57 <shachaf> it's too late to back out now
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02:27:49 <oerjan> no it isn't, also it doesn't seem relevant. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/monoidplus-0.1.0.1/docs/Data-Monoid-Plus.html
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02:43:54 <mauris> Profunctor is one thing
02:49:33 <oerjan> they're phantom parameters, so they're both co- and contravariant all ways
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04:01:53 <ais523> hmm, if something is both covariant and contravariant
04:01:57 <ais523> doesn't that imply it isn't used at all?
04:02:02 <ais523> (sort of the opposite of being invariant)
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04:12:41 <zzo38> How can you make ANSI music with xterm?
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05:58:14 <oren> I just bought a laptap based primarily on it being the only one I could find over 2Kg
06:02:42 * Sgeo_ built an ALU :) (not IRL. Using a hardware description language)
06:02:54 <Sgeo_> Also it conforms to specs someone else made
06:02:54 <oren> Sgeo_: Niiice!
06:04:55 <oren> 2.7 kilograms of laptop. because fuck you, macbook-air-using weaklings
06:05:58 <Sgeo_> Just noticed a typo. Tests did not catch it.
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06:31:34 <oren> which operations does you alu support?
06:34:02 <Sgeo_> & and +, with some modifiers on input and output that allow for -, |, and some other stuff
06:35:09 <Sgeo_> So, it's &, +, with options to zero out the inputs, bitwise negate the inputs and bitwise negate the output.
06:35:37 <izabera> my bf interpreter returns 0 on EOF, what's wrong with this line? +[>,----------]+[<++++++++++.]
06:35:43 <izabera> i want to read a line and reverse it
06:36:33 <ais523> izabera: you're running off the end of the tape going leftwards
06:36:43 <Sgeo_> oren, http://nand2tetris-questions-and-answers-forum.32033.n3.nabble.com/file/n95834/alu_worksheet.pdf
06:36:54 <ais523> !bf >,[>,]<[.<]!reverse
06:36:55 <izabera> ais523: aaah dammit, i see
06:36:59 <ais523> ^bf >,[>,]<[.<]!reverse
06:37:08 <izabera> yes but that doesn't stop on \n <.<
06:37:21 <ais523> I know, but the important thing is to look at where the < signs are
06:37:38 <ais523> you need the > at the start to give you an extra 0 at the leftmost end to stop on
06:37:42 <izabera> fixed it ----------[>,----------]+[<++++++++++.]
06:37:44 <ais523> and you need the < at the end of the loop
06:38:06 <ais523> otherwise you're outputting a NUL just before the program ends
06:38:09 <ais523> which looks a bit messy
06:38:22 <Sgeo_> http://nand2tetris-questions-and-answers-forum.32033.n3.nabble.com/Is-the-method-used-to-make-the-Hack-ALU-an-exception-or-the-rule-td4026896.html
06:39:36 <ais523> Sgeo_: that's quite some URL
06:39:54 <oren> hmm, that seems to be a good approach iirc that's how the 6502 ALU works (with the ALU control bits coming from some logic on the opcode)
06:40:58 <shachaf> http://www.5z8.info/how-to-build-a-bomb_a2k7om_myspace-of-sex hth
06:41:04 <Sgeo_> It does mean that there's redundant functions, e.g. two ways to get x out (x&-1 and x+0)
06:42:03 <ais523> shachaf: do you have that URL just saved up as an example of an amusing URL?
06:42:10 <ais523> (unsurprisingly I am not following it)
06:42:19 <shachaf> No, I got it from http://www.shadyurl.com/
06:42:20 <ais523> Sgeo_: I doubt that can be helped, really
06:42:29 <shachaf> It's a short link version of Sgeo_'s URL.
06:42:36 <ais523> shachaf: ah right, you have an amusing URL generator memorized instead
06:42:49 <ais523> Sgeo_'s is more informative, though, I think
06:42:52 <shachaf> I have the existence of one memorized.
06:43:17 <shachaf> @google amusing url generator
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06:43:18 <lambdabot> Title: ShadyURL - Don't just shorten your URL, make it suspicious and frightening.
06:43:36 <oren> cool. I should do all my bookmarks with that
06:43:59 <ais523> in this case, the URL is indeed shorter
06:45:20 <oren> http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00WBXG6ZM
06:46:13 <izabera> did you mean http://www.5z8.info/-php-deactivate_phishing_filter-48-_b9d7ac_nazi
06:47:11 <ais523> the previous shady URL was better
06:47:18 <ais523> that one just doesn't make any sense
06:47:18 <oren> anyway do you like the look of that laptop?
06:47:27 <ais523> (also, is the bit before and after the hex string actually relevant?)
06:47:41 <ais523> it seems to me that such a site would be better if the hex string wasn't part of it
06:48:06 <izabera> the look of the laptop is the same as any thinkpad...
06:49:19 <shachaf> ais523: That reminds me of when I was wondering what the best way to convert some data (say, a private key, maybe a few thousand bits?) to a form which can be memorized relatively easily.
06:49:30 <oren> it isn't the same as this flimsy thing:
06:49:32 <oren> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad#/media/File:Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Ultrabook.jpg
06:49:43 <shachaf> Or even just a secret key, 128 or 256 bits, would be a good start.
06:50:33 <ais523> shachaf: well, the people who have memorization world records start by having a code for the individual things you're encoding (say nybbles in this case), mapping them onto reasonably general concepts that are distinct and memorizing that mapping
06:51:28 <ais523> and then they form a story which uses the concepts in the sequence that they're trying to memorize, preferably an amusing one because that's more memorable
06:51:56 <izabera> that's the just a basic method of loci...
06:52:17 <ais523> izabera: I'm not claiming that this is some big secret or whatever
06:52:35 <izabera> i used to be decent at this a few years ago...
06:53:01 <shachaf> I'd rather transform the data into a form which is easy for people to remember than transform people into a form which is well-suited for memorizing data.
06:53:04 <izabera> in 2009 i had a national record for multiple blindfolded rubiks cube solving
06:53:56 <izabera> oh look my memory is so good that i had to check and it was 2010
06:55:10 <ais523> I, um, was top 8 in the UK at the Pokémon video game championships in 2011? that's some sort of achievement
06:56:02 <ais523> I think doing multiple rubik's cubes blindfolded is more impressive
06:56:19 <ais523> there's a bunch of memorization and strategy in both, but in Pokémon, what you have to memorize doesn't change much from game to game
06:56:32 <ais523> (other than things you've observed the opponent do earlier in the game, and I often forget that…)
06:57:44 <izabera> it was only 5 cubes and it took me 43 *minutes*
06:57:54 <izabera> by today's standards it's crap
07:03:25 <ais523> but at least they ended up in the right arrangement?
07:03:34 <ais523> I doubt I'd be able to keep track of just the one cube while blindfolded
07:04:00 <izabera> oh it's not that hard, can you solve it?
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07:04:41 <ais523> there are a couple of situations that I keep forgetting the solutions to
07:04:47 <ais523> (one of which is fairly common)
07:04:55 <ais523> but I used to be able to solve it pretty reliably
07:05:08 <ais523> I don't know what "t perm" stands for / refers to, it's possible I know the concept but not by that name
07:05:29 <izabera> it's just a permutation that swaps two edges and two corners
07:06:02 <ais523> oh, in that case I remember seeing it but don't use it
07:06:31 <ais523> I've seen multiple notations but they all use much the same language
07:06:37 <ais523> RLFBUD is one I know, yes
07:06:56 <izabera> the t perm swaps the RU and LU edges, and the RFU and RBU corners
07:07:15 <izabera> you can use that to solve the whole cube
07:07:45 <ais523> oh, and that's why it took 43 minutes :-)
07:07:54 <izabera> no solving is relatively fast
07:08:40 <izabera> e.g.: let's solve an edge 3-cycle
07:09:06 <izabera> just random edges, doesn't matter
07:09:09 <ais523> do you do edges first, corners first, or a bit of both?
07:09:24 <izabera> edges first, eventual parity, corners
07:10:20 <ais523> my "current" (as in last time I solved it) approach to parity is "try to solve most of the cube, if the parity is wrong do a sequence to fix it", but that's slow
07:11:05 <izabera> anyway, to solve that cycle: move BL to UL without messing with UR, URF or URB (this is called a setup move), then tperm, then invert the setup move
07:11:18 <izabera> then setup DR to UL, tperm, anti-setup
07:11:27 <izabera> then setup FU to UL, tperm, anti-setup
07:11:28 <ais523> right, I use setup moves for top corners
07:11:35 <ais523> but then my technique is from an old guide
07:11:43 <ais523> which does top edges, top corners, middle edges, bottom corners, bottom edges
07:11:58 <izabera> that's not a good method for blindfolded solving
07:12:17 <ais523> it's not a good method for any other purpose eitehr
07:12:18 <shachaf> Something like two edges being flipped?
07:12:24 <ais523> other than feeling like you're making progress
07:12:42 <izabera> no, it's when you have both an odd permutation in edges and corners
07:12:42 <ais523> shachaf: well flipping two edges has patterns that fix it, but it's quite long
07:12:53 <izabera> i mean, both edges and corners have an odd permutation
07:13:17 <shachaf> I think I solved it top corners, top edges, middle edges, bottom corners, bottom edges.
07:13:35 <izabera> yes but you need to keep track of the state of the cube
07:13:46 <shachaf> Not good for blindfolded solving.
07:13:56 <izabera> blindfolded methods do this by solving one or two pieces at a time and leaving the rest as it is
07:14:37 <shachaf> To some degree you could use the bottom edge/corner methods for the top edges and corners.
07:15:08 <izabera> well i think most people use the fridrich method...
07:15:25 <izabera> basically the first two layers are built intuitively, then oll and pll with fast algorithms
07:16:43 <izabera> aka "complete the yellow face" and "complete the yellow layer"
07:17:01 <shachaf> It's been probably more than ten years since I last thought about this.
07:17:52 <shachaf> I remember that I liked how you could use the same method that you use for rotating/flipping top corners/edges for the bottom layer, as long as you did it twice, one of them in reverse.
07:18:42 <izabera> well yes that's fun but a bit slow <.<
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07:46:53 <shachaf> Oh, "intuitive" has a technical meaning here.
07:48:12 <izabera> all f2l "algorithms" can be derived easily with a little practice
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08:49:30 <ashl> i derived mine using GAP (http://www.gap-system.org/) ._.
08:50:00 <ashl> now i can't remember them or find the code
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09:53:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Undergroundmonorail * New user account
10:03:34 <ais523> that probably isn't a spambot
10:03:45 <ais523> more of an esoteric transport system
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10:27:09 <izabera> i assume all of you have seen ex machina
10:27:16 <izabera> suppose you become a billionaire for some reason
10:27:26 <izabera> and buy this really large house with a huge garden
10:27:39 <izabera> well that's not even close to ex machina but that's the idea
10:28:00 <izabera> how do i stop phone companies to provide cell phone coverage on that area?
10:28:32 <ais523> izabera: well whether you get coverage depends mostly on whether you have line of sight to a cellphone mast
10:28:41 <ais523> (range also matters but not nearly as much)
10:29:19 <ais523> so I guess you'd need to figure out which cellphone masts are visible, then find new locations for them that cover the same areas except not your garden
10:29:43 <izabera> that's easier than i thought
10:29:46 <ais523> and then somehow convince the people who own the land where the new locations would be to let you build cellphone masts there
10:29:51 <int-e> izabera: afair it was in the mountains, and the property was huge (wasm"we've been flying over his property for a few hours now"?)
10:30:07 <int-e> s/wasm/wasn't there a line like... /
10:30:09 <ais523> alternatively you could build a big metal wall around your garden to block the signals
10:30:15 <izabera> yeah the helycopter guy said something like that
10:30:34 <izabera> a big metal wall would ruin the view
10:31:25 <ais523> well it depends on whether the view you care about is the entire surrounding countryside, or just your garden
10:31:36 <ais523> if the garden is big enough you wouldn't even really be able to see the wall
10:31:59 <izabera> that'd mean to live in a prison -_-
10:32:11 <izabera> a large prison is still a prison
10:32:33 <ais523> well, are you keeping yourself in, or the world out
10:32:41 <ais523> it'd probably be you who had the keys to any gates in it
10:32:42 <izabera> wait, i got it. i could build a wall around everything else
10:33:12 <izabera> i'd laugh about people being caged
10:34:06 <ais523> isn't that equivalent?
10:34:18 <ais523> the wall's in the same place either way :-)
10:34:43 <int-e> Mmm. Reminds me of Aeon Flux
10:34:46 <izabera> of course it is physically equivalent but my version is much more satisfying
10:35:01 <int-e> (not people being caged, I'm still on the "big garden" thread)
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10:50:17 <fizzie> How about satellite phone coverage?
10:50:49 <ais523> you'd need to block LOS to the satellite, or disable the satellite somehow
10:52:06 <fizzie> Completely unrelated, but might be of interest to some: someone told me the SIGGRAPH 2015 proceedings are available for downloading (without any ACM subscription) for a limited time ("maybe a week") at http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2809654&_sm_au_=iVV25TfRTPr0jbK6
10:54:38 <ais523> there's such a weird scale of journal publishers
10:55:03 <ais523> all the way from "outright evil" to "aware they probably shouldn't be that evil but it's a habit right now" to "gives the impression of genuinely trying to do the right thing, just sucks at it"
10:57:39 <boily> on a scale from one to Elsevier, where would you put the ACM?
11:00:34 <fizzie> A paper I was involved was just published under SpringerOpen. I don't know where that fits, because it's all open-access, but it's still a part of the Springer conglomerate.
11:00:57 <ais523> boily: probably somewhere in the middle
11:01:30 <ais523> (also, I like the way that we both instinctively identified Elsevier as the most evil end of the scale, even if I didn' t say it)
11:01:34 <fizzie> They've got an "open access waiver fund" that covers the open access fees for authors in countries "classified by the World Bank as Low-income economies or Lower-middle-income economies as of September 2014, and which have a 2013 gross domestic product of less than 200 billion US dollars". I guess it's a good thing, but it's still a bit arbitrary.
11:02:24 <ais523> fizzie: AFAICT the "typical" way for large conglomerates to do open-access is to work out how much people in total are willing to pay to make any given paper open access
11:02:30 <ais523> then charge that, regardless of the actual cost
11:02:45 <ais523> I've heard rumours that it's in the thousands of dollars range
11:03:02 <fizzie> It was something with four digits for an IEEE journal.
11:03:18 <ais523> (ACM actually called some other journals out for doing this and then charging for the open-access stuff as part of a subscription bundle anyway)
11:04:53 <fizzie> I kind of like that SpringerOpen just wants you to apply a CC-Attribution license to your paper instead of signing some custom dozen-page legal thing that does whatever.
11:05:32 <ais523> well, isn't creative commons' entire purpose to come up with correctly legally worded licenses for some specific common special licensing cases?
11:05:52 <ais523> not taking advantage of that is basically arrogance, you're claiming that you have better lawyers than creative commons
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11:06:41 <fizzie> Apparently the SpringerOpen journal "my" paper is in charges $1105 (or EUR 900, or £705) per article.
11:07:27 <ais523> OK, that's less than I thought but nonetheless ridiculously high
11:07:43 <ais523> the cost of editing and reformatting is nonzero but not that large
11:08:03 <ais523> the cost of proofreading and peer review is effectively zero because they make academics do it for no pay
11:08:36 <ais523> (I remember there was a movement a while back to boycott publishing in the shadier-business-practice journals; IMO that doesn't make sense, the correct thing to do is to boycott peer review for them as they're basically profiting off your unpaid work)
11:09:41 <boily> there's always Arxiv...
11:10:53 <ais523> arxiv is a good solution to some of these problems
11:11:11 <ais523> (it's only allowed the pre-peer-review versions of the papers, though, which normally contain errors because they haven't been peer reviewed yet)
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13:22:15 <oren> if arxiv added a comment and rating system, limited to academics, then would we need peer review?
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13:28:33 <ais523> oren: you'd still need to encourage people to review, I think
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13:28:46 <ais523> also that would sort-of miss the reality of how conferences work (but maybe not journals)
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20:46:25 <olsner> @tell boily ah, the mother modem, that is swedish and hilariously wrong
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21:11:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Undergroundmonorail]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43832 * Undergroundmonorail * (+127) Created page with "I'm undergroundmonorail and I'm deeply disturbed by the fact that I can't get rid of the uppercase U in the title of this page."
21:12:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Undergroundmonorail]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43833&oldid=43832 * Undergroundmonorail * (+7) clarity
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21:30:26 <fizzie> olsner: Apparently it's a kind of a Thing in Swedish computery forums.
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21:56:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Undergroundmonorail]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43834&oldid=43833 * Oerjan * (+14) EMERGENCY LIFESAVING USERPAGE EDIT
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