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00:15:52 <oren> gragh. my aes key expansion still isn't working
00:27:56 <fizzie> Are you... reimplementing AES?
00:28:06 <oren> yes. In visual basic
00:28:55 <oren> http://hastebin.com/anopomiyay.vbs
00:29:23 <oren> thats what I have so far but the key expansion is not giving the righyt output
00:30:12 <fizzie> I thought you were going to use existing crypto.
00:30:51 <oren> I'll do that if this gets too frustrating
00:31:31 <oren> what's weird is only a few of the bytes of the expanded key are wrong
00:33:00 <oren> (in the particular unit test of the key 00000000000000000000000000000000)
00:33:13 <fizzie> Have you checked the iteration-by-iteration key expansion examples in the standard?
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00:36:00 <oren> that's true, I should just log the same things they did and compare...
00:37:56 <oren> ok never mind I had an off by one error
00:38:18 <oren> hi ProofTechnique
00:38:37 <oren> I'm making AES in Visual Basic
00:38:51 <oren> http://arin.ga/CpcwH6
00:41:53 <oren> It working! I fix it!
00:42:18 <oren> ...on one example. I should add more unit tests
00:42:51 <oren> before counting it as "done"
00:43:35 <oren> however this is a major step towards getting the ssh to work
00:45:58 <hppavilion[1]> Did you just use two different links to the same thing?
00:46:37 <fizzie> I want to go on the record here that despite the suggestion, I'm in no way promoting homebrew cryptography.
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01:28:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pikalang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44015&oldid=41282 * 68.50.42.113 * (+26) /* Commands */
01:29:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pikalang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44016&oldid=44015 * Grotr * (+3) /* External resources */
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01:45:01 <mauris_> <fizzie> I want to go on the record here that despite the suggestion, I'm in no way promoting homebrew cryptography. <-- eh, someone's gotta brew it, right?
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01:46:59 <mauris_> i mean, there are presumably existing, well-tested implementations of AES for visual basic, so i think it's a bit silly to write your own, but like, if oren writes their own and tests it thoroughly as well, i see no reason to trust any existing implementation more than oren's
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01:50:57 <mauris_> (imo i'm not a professional cryptozoologist though so what do i know! i'm definitely interested to find out if there's more to it than "this produced the same output as an existing trustworthy implementation for a couple thousand random inputs, so it's trustworthy")
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02:12:22 <oren> mauris__: there are other problems, relating to the trustworthiness of VB itelf. typically crypto is written in C or even assembly so the compiler hopefully can't introduce weakness
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02:14:23 <oren> in other words just because my code looks right and produces the right output doesn't mean Microsoft's compiler or garabage collector or whatever isn't screwing you
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02:22:02 <hppavilion[1]> How can I make a language which's programs are harder to hack and are more secure?
02:22:31 <hppavilion[1]> 1) Provide well-tested standard libraries for security (no hacky hashing for you!)
02:22:38 <mauris__> oren: oh, like the plaintext lingering around in memory?
02:23:33 <hppavilion[1]> 2) Provide easy mechanisms to catch crashes so that you don't leave something open to kill it
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02:24:53 <oren> 3) provide a nocache storage modifier that disables disk cahing, and a zero() function that takes such a variable and zeroes it
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02:25:20 <Sgeo> Don't C compilers optimize stuff?
02:25:27 <Sgeo> Which is not what you need with crypto
02:25:39 <oren> (modern compilers are known to optimize out the part of an algorithm that deletes that plaintext)
02:26:00 <oren> Sgeo: yes, which is why it needs to move to assumply
02:28:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ingredients-Oriented Paradigm]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44017&oldid=44000 * Hppavilion1 * (+675) Added some stuff and rearranged
02:31:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ingredients-Oriented Paradigm]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44018&oldid=44017 * Hppavilion1 * (+313) Exception Handling
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02:46:08 <mauris__> !tell ais523 WUUI question: "Whenever (to be precise, just after) any expression is evaluated," <-- how many expressions is, say, "x[0]/3"?
02:46:10 <EgoBot> ais523: WUUI: question:: Whenever (to be precise, just after) any expression is evaluated,: <--: how: many: expressions: is,: say,: x[0]/3?:
02:46:21 <mauris__> @tell ais523 WUUI question: "Whenever (to be precise, just after) any expression is evaluated," <-- how many expressions is, say, "x[0]/3"?
02:48:19 <HackEgo> Thanks, walrusman. Thalrusman.
02:49:42 <oren> Ok, how is it even possible that I did the shift rows step wrong?
02:50:59 <oren> well that's solved, bu the output is still worng. back to the drawing beard
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03:00:45 <HackEgo> Thanks, lllllleeeeroooooy_jenkins. Theeeeroooooy_jenkins.
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03:01:47 <hppavilion[1]> I'd like to see a Programming Language which is centred around defining abstract machines (turing, kolmogorov, FSMs, etc) and letting those evaluate for you
03:02:01 <hppavilion[1]> Declarative programming in a nutshell, I suppose xD
03:04:01 <hppavilion[1]> @tell hppavilion[1] you are a walrus. Fear your wrath
03:04:10 <hppavilion[1]> @tell hppavilion[1] you are a walrus. Fear your wrath
03:04:24 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: clear-auto-reply clear-messages clear-topic learn
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03:06:42 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
03:06:49 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
03:06:55 <lambdabot> list [module|command]. Show commands for [module] or the module providing [command].
03:07:18 <lambdabot> system provides: listchans listmodules listservers list echo uptime
03:07:30 <lambdabot> system provides: listchans listmodules listservers list echo uptime
03:07:36 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {ircMsgServer = "freenode", ircMsgLBName = "lambdabot", ircMsgPrefix = "hppavilion[1]!~Lordofthe@133-171-58-66.gci.net", ircMsgCommand = "PRIVMSG", ircMsgParams = ["#esoteric",":@echo \"Walrus Man\""]} target:#esoteric rest:"\"Walrus Man\""
03:09:38 <hppavilion[1]> I should stop before I make someone very powerful* angry
03:11:43 <hppavilion[1]> oren b_jonas rdococ shachaf there are lonely people here
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03:13:24 <oren> So all the sub steps of AES are working perfectly, and yet the ouput is wrong?!! wtf is happenink here
03:13:55 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps fungot does not will that you have encryption
03:13:55 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: ( currycpseid a b). that means there's at the very least, they did. it's in all the shitty languages out there
03:14:19 <hppavilion[1]> fungot fungot fungot <-- I wonder if this prints more than one
03:14:19 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: http://www.schemers.org/ documents/ standards/ fnord/ hallways/ etc?
03:16:42 <oren> I don't think so. In fact my main cipher() function is virtually identical to the pseudocode in the standard
03:21:20 <mauris__> @tell ais523 "An entire program is a single command." <-- I think you either forgot to put {} around the example program, or meant to write "list of commands"
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03:51:14 <oren> FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
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03:52:11 <oren> those... assholes who wrote the standards document store their arrays with columns in sequence!
03:52:35 <oren> What kind of fucking monster does that!
03:57:11 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: i recognize that the idea of doing them like that, it means
03:57:13 <oren> http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/fips/fips197/fips-197.pdf
03:57:40 <oren> look at page 33 how the keyis loaded into the matrix
03:58:28 <oren> 4 bytes of the input goes into each column
03:58:55 <tswett> So I realized that the snub cube has a problem, considered as a die.
03:59:01 <tswett> (Besides the fact that it's not fair.)
03:59:33 <tswett> Now, there are three classes of faces: squares; triangles adjacent to squares ("edge triangles"); and triangles not adjacent to squares ("corner triangles").
03:59:51 <tswett> Every square has an opposite face. Every corner triangle has an opposite face. Edge triangles do not have opposite faces.
04:00:26 <tswett> Each *pair* of edge triangles has an opposite pair of edge triangles, but the two pairs are at a 90 degree angle to each other.
04:01:05 <tswett> So if the die lands on an edge triangle, there's no top face; there's instead a top pair of faces, where one of the middle vertices is higher up than the other one.
04:01:24 <oren> So apparently those assholes should have put a Transpose(State) at the start of their pseudocode but couldn't be bothered
04:02:04 <tswett> So you could simply mark those "edge triangle pair middle vertices" with numbers instead of marking the edge triangles themselves with numbers.
04:02:16 <tswett> That's kind of inelegant.
04:03:36 <hppavilion[1]> "So if the die lands on an edge triangle, there's no top face; there's instead a top pair of faces, where one of the middle vertices is higher up than the other one."
04:03:41 <tswett> It does have the number of sides I want.
04:04:04 <hppavilion[1]> So are you going to hunt down and kill the person who suggested a snub cube?
04:04:04 <tswett> I pretty much can't imagine going with a shape that's not either a snub cube or a variant of the snub cube.
04:04:23 <tswett> No, I think the snub cube was a great suggestion, and I'm really grateful to whoever it was.
04:04:33 <tswett> I'm just going to have to alter it a little.
04:05:48 <hppavilion[1]> Well I should get around to finding out what a snub cube
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05:00:25 <oren> http://arin.ga/Gd7e6L
05:00:54 <oren> (also has my very incomplete SSH class)
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05:02:33 <Walpurgisnacht> Explain what monads are in full depth from memory but very simply
05:04:10 <oren> Iv'e heard they're used as a way to encapsulate statefulness away from the pure functional code
05:08:38 <oren> However in addition Haskell represents basically all data structures as monads, for uh... reasons.
05:15:31 <mauris> Walpurgisnacht: the programming definitions: they're a way to chain computations with a certain context together
05:15:56 <mauris> here "context" is a very vague thing, of course!
05:18:25 <mauris> it can mean, "optionally not returning a value" (a -> Maybe b), or "optionally returning many values representing possibilities for some non-deterministic computation" (a -> List b), or "computations using IO" (a -> IO b)
05:19:42 <mauris> in each of these, a monad is essentially some fluff that lets you chain (a -> m b), (b -> m c), (c -> m d), ... together in a way that makes sense
05:20:37 <mauris> (and also, supplies an (a -> m a) computation -- one that "does nothing", but in the context in question)
05:21:08 <mauris> here's a very simple computation that can fail and not return a value:
05:21:29 <mauris> @let halve x = if even x then Just (x `div` 2) else Nothing
05:21:41 <mauris> > [halve 2, halve 3, halve 4, halve 5, halve 6]
05:21:43 <lambdabot> [Just 1,Nothing,Just 2,Nothing,Just 3]
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05:22:37 <mauris> okay, haskell made that confusing. but it's (Int -> Maybe Int), essentially.
05:23:13 <mauris> now, suppose we want to halve a thing three times, but if we fail along the way there, return Nothing
05:23:48 <mauris> we can't do: halve (halve (halve 24))
05:24:04 <mauris> because halve wants an Int, not a Maybe Int!
05:24:16 <mauris> so we use the confusingly-typed:
05:24:21 <lambdabot> Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
05:24:46 <mauris> it takes the result of some computation, and the next step to pipe that value through
05:25:34 <mauris> > halve 24 >>= halve >>= halve
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05:27:00 <mauris> this is much nicer than what we'd have to write otherwise: https://bpaste.net/show/898533b7f3f7
05:28:55 <mauris> Walpurgisnacht: do you know what the type IO a means, in Haskell?
05:30:35 <mauris> ok. it's roughly something like... a recipe for how to get a value of the type 'a' from the outside world
05:30:45 <mauris> :t getChar -- for example
05:31:29 <mauris> the crucial thing to understand about these is that you can't "call" them!
05:32:14 <mauris> (oh, i meant to write: "get a value of the type 'a' from the outside world, optionally doing some other stuff on the side")
05:32:35 <mauris> in fact, the only one that ever gets ran is main :: IO ().
05:34:38 <mauris> when you write a Haskell program, all you're doing is describing how the steps for "main" fit together
05:35:37 <mauris> you can never execute a sub-step (there is no function "IO a -> a"), only combine a bunch of them and call it "main". this is why Haskell is pure!
05:36:14 <oren> but then how do you interleave inputs and outputs to write an interactive program?
05:37:04 <mauris> and as you have probably read somewhere, this "chaining steps together" stuff happens using a monad
05:38:00 <mauris> oren: i'll demonstrate that in a bit
05:38:34 <mauris> the type of (>>=), the "bind" combinator we used before, in the IO monad, is: IO a -> (a -> IO b) -> IO b
05:40:13 <mauris> which means: 'given an IO computation that gets us an "a", and another IO computation that WOULD return a "b" if only we knew which "a" to use, combine them into an IO computation returning a "b"'.
05:40:36 <mauris> the second thing (a -> IO b) might be confusing, but there's a really simple example:
05:41:03 <mauris> this WOULD be an IO String, but it needs to be told which file path to read from first
05:41:18 <mauris> ^ and now it's an IO String.
05:41:45 <mauris> so now we can combine two IO steps together where the second depends on the result of the first
05:41:57 <mauris> :t getLine -- from standard input
05:42:36 <mauris> :t putStrLn -- to standard output, with a dummy result () (think "void" in C-like langs)
05:43:21 <mauris> now we can write a program that reads a line and prints it by piping them together with (>>=)!
05:43:48 <mauris> :t getLine >>= putStrLn -- has the right type to be "main"!
05:44:20 <mauris> we still haven't done any line-getting or string-putting, here. we *only* described a program that does those steps in order -- the second depending on the result of the first
05:45:16 <mauris> :t getLine >>= readFile >>= putStrLn
05:45:49 <mauris> another valid program: "get a line; with the result read a file; with the result write a string."
05:47:01 <mauris> :t (getLine >>= readFile) >>= putStrLn -- for clarity
05:48:22 <mauris> a common case, of course, is that the second step doesn't depend on the first -- we simply want to put them in order
05:48:32 <mauris> there's an operator for that, too:
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05:52:42 <mauris> Walpurgisnacht: oren: https://bpaste.net/show/5525a8366547 <-- here is a more complicated example
05:53:42 <mauris> "\name -> blah" is a lambda. a very common pattern is:
05:54:27 <mauris> someAction >>= (\foo -> ...) -- where ... is some other action that needs the result of the previous one -- which we've called "foo"
05:55:01 <mauris> (in the type "IO a -> (a -> IO b) -> IO b", foo is our "a")
05:55:16 <mauris> (and the whole lambda is the "(a -> IO b)")
05:57:06 <mauris> oren: the program is interactive! we chain the steps "get line; print; get line; print" together to one big "main", but when it gets executed, those steps aren't necessarily done all at once; we can perform the first step without worrying about the third one.
05:58:16 <mauris> now you're thinking: "that looks freaking awful. i don't want to write those pesky >>= and >> and lambdas everywhere! i just want to write my steps in order and be done with it."
05:59:57 <mauris> and the Haskell people agree! there's some syntactic sugar called "do-notation" that lets you do just that: https://bpaste.net/show/7df7e88f4f6e
06:00:12 <oren> Eh. >> is ; and >>= is function composition where unlike C, the functions are written in the order they are executed
06:01:00 <oren> not so awful, just uses symbols in unorthodox ways
06:01:46 <mauris> "p >> q" became "p; q" (you can put semicolons instead of newlines), and "p >>= (x -> q)" became "x <- p; q"
06:02:54 <mauris> do-notation is a bit confusing, because writing "do { line <- getLine; putStrLn line }" looks a *lot* like a bit of imperative code that you can execute. but in reality it's *still* just a pretty way to describe how they fit together!
06:03:59 <mauris> anyway, i'm derailing a bit. understanding do-notation is something you can worry about separately :)
06:04:07 <oren> that seems like a meaningless distiction to me. it executes when you run main, in the order you wrote it, just like in C
06:05:13 <pikhq> oren: That's the goal. The trick is, *not everything in Haskell works like that*.
06:05:52 <oren> The parts that aren't IO don't have to be in any order, but that is ALSO true in C with modern compilers
06:06:00 <pikhq> The goal is, you write imperative code, pretty much as imperative code, and then functional code as functional code.
06:07:29 <pikhq> Also worth noting -- IO is not the only monad.
06:07:33 <pikhq> You can write your own.
06:07:41 <pikhq> So, >> is ;, but it's a programmable ;
06:07:48 <oren> still, very nice of the Haskell makers to include an algol-derivative-mode
06:08:49 <oren> if haskell tutorials started with main = do that would make haskell much more popular
06:08:56 <mauris> the goal also is: there's no way to *call* the imperative parts from the functional parts. you can only click functional parts together, or click them onto imperative parts to get bigger imperative parts
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06:12:17 <mauris> Walpurgisnacht: if you got lost at any point, feel free to point that out!
06:12:40 <pikhq> > let foo a = do { x <- a; return (x+1) } in foo [1,2,3]
06:13:12 <mauris> the "real" way to monad enlightenment is: write a lot of code for each individual monad and then see the overarching pattern, because it's very vague
06:13:47 <mauris> the IO and Maybe monads do very different kinds of things in one way, but they're very similar in another!
06:14:39 <pikhq> (yes, a list is also a monad)
06:14:49 <oren> :t Just 1 >> Just 3
06:16:47 <oren> > Just 1 >> Just 3
06:17:36 <mauris> > Just 1 >>= (\valueInsideJust -> Just 3) -- equivalent
06:18:13 <mauris> > Just 1 >>= (\valueInsideJust -> valueInsideTheJust + 3) -- also possible, and if we don't supply a Just to start with:
06:18:15 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘valueInsideTheJust’
06:18:15 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘valueInsideJust’ (line 1)
06:18:22 <mauris> > Just 1 >>= (\valueInsideJust -> valueInsideJust + 3) -- also possible, and if we don't supply a Just to start with:
06:18:24 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M889533674962114763625185’
06:18:24 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘b0’ is ambiguous
06:19:16 <mauris> > Just 1 >>= (\valueInsideJust -> Just (valueInsideJust + 3))
06:19:29 <mauris> > Nothing >>= (\valueInsideJust -> Just (valueInsideJust + 3))
06:20:06 <mauris> for >>= in Maybe, if we start with a failed computation, that failure gets propagated; else we continue with the result.
06:21:19 <mauris> > Just "heya" >>= Just >>= Just >>= Just >>= (\x -> Nothing) >>= Just >>= Just
06:21:39 <mauris> if *any* of the steps go wrong, the whole chain fails
06:22:13 <mauris> (Just is simply (\x -> Just x), so it's a valid right-hand operand to >>=)
06:26:06 <ashl> yay, a monad tutorial
06:26:42 <ashl> the thing to remember is that monads are a lot like burritos
06:39:33 <ashl> here's something depressing:
06:39:38 <ashl> "When the Java 8 library team was designing Optional there was some opposition to the idea that it should contain some useful methods (essentially Optional.map and Optional.flatMap) on the somewhat spurious grounds that they didn't want their Optional to be a Monad."
06:42:38 <oren> The Java team is always trying to restrict what sort of code can be written
06:45:03 <oren> they in particular loathe functions
06:53:29 <ashl> why did they add lambdas then
07:01:15 <izabera> how do i test if $myprogram is faster than $otherprogram if the disk io is the bottleneck?
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07:01:49 <izabera> uhm, i need a fast way to generate pseudorandom crap
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07:04:08 <shachaf> another pleasant interjection from our clear wire friend
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07:10:46 <oren> umtry dd if=/dev/urandom of=temp bs=1048576 count=%nunmber of megabytes%
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07:12:32 <izabera> how do i feed it to my programs without disk being the bottleneck?
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07:15:05 <ashl> prog </dev/urandom :P
07:15:32 <oerjan> <izabera> Great repository names are short and memorable. Need inspiration? How about strident-rutabaga. <-- sorry, but my heart long since decided on "reactive banana" hth
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07:16:41 <oerjan> wait yours doesn't exist, cheater!
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07:17:39 <izabera> i must admit that reactive banana is memorable
07:23:32 <Jafet> `` cc $'#include <stdio.h>\n#include <stdlib.h>\nmain() { srand(time(0)); for(;;) putchar(rand()); } | dd of=/dev/null bs=1M count=1K
07:23:33 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
07:23:38 <Jafet> `` cc $'#include <stdio.h>\n#include <stdlib.h>\nmain() { srand(time(0)); for(;;) putchar(rand()); } | dd of=/dev/null bs=1M count=1K
07:23:40 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
07:25:35 <Jafet> `` cc $'#include <stdio.h>\n#include <stdlib.h>\nmain() { srand(time(0)); for(;;) putchar(rand()); }' | dd of=/dev/null bs=1K count=100K 2>&1
07:25:43 <HackEgo> 102400+0 records in \ 102400+0 records out \ 104857600 bytes (105 MB) copied, 6.6342 s, 15.8 MB/s
07:25:47 <Jafet> That's unusually slow
07:26:10 <izabera> i wouldn't say "unusually"...
07:27:03 <izabera> you're throwing away most of the data you get from rand and you're printing one character at a time
07:32:05 <Jafet> `` cc $'#include <stdio.h>\n#include <stdlib.h>\nmain() { char buf[4096]; for(;;) fwrite(buf, sizeof buf, 1, stdout); }' | dd of=/dev/null bs=4K count=100K 2>&1
07:32:11 <HackEgo> 102400+0 records in \ 102400+0 records out \ 419430400 bytes (419 MB) copied, 5.78028 s, 72.6 MB/s
07:33:38 <Jafet> Oh, syscall overhead
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07:33:50 <Jafet> `` cc $'#include <stdio.h>\n#include <stdlib.h>\nmain() { char buf[1<<20]; for(;;) fwrite(buf, sizeof buf, 1, stdout); }' | dd of=/dev/null bs=1M count=1K 2>&1
07:33:52 <HackEgo> dd: warning: partial read (4096 bytes); suggest iflag=fullblock \ 469+555 records in \ 469+555 records out \ 782241792 bytes (782 MB) copied, 0.911976 s, 858 MB/s
07:34:02 <Jafet> `` cc $'#include <stdio.h>\n#include <stdlib.h>\nmain() { char buf[1<<20]; for(;;) fwrite(buf, sizeof buf, 1, stdout); }' | dd iflag=fullblock of=/dev/null bs=1M count=1K 2>&1
07:34:04 <HackEgo> 1024+0 records in \ 1024+0 records out \ 1073741824 bytes (1.1 GB) copied, 1.17474 s, 914 MB/s
07:50:45 <fizzie> putchar() doesn't really print "one character at a time" unless you specifically get an unbuffered stream.
07:52:11 <izabera> well there's the function call overhead
07:52:58 <fizzie> And HackEgo's performance characteristics aren't probably very good if you're looking for something "normal", since UML.
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07:55:44 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo "$@" | sed 's/\\/\n/g' >/tmp/a.c && gcc -w -Wfatal-errors -std=c11 -O2 /tmp/a.c -o /tmp/a.out && /tmp/a.out
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07:59:20 <stalem> that's pretty convenient
08:00:21 <fizzie> I don't like it using a useless temporary file for the source.
08:00:43 <EgoBot> sh xargs printf "%s: "; sed 's/.*# *//g' interps/$1
08:01:01 <stalem> fizzie: what would you have it use instead?
08:01:38 * stalem suddenly remembers show n tell
08:02:10 <oerjan> i'm not sure we have/had that in norway
08:02:27 <stalem> be glad you didn't/don't
08:02:59 <fizzie> `` sed -I 's{>/tmp/a.c &&}{|};s|/tmp/a.c|-x c -|' bin/cc
08:03:00 <HackEgo> sed: invalid option -- 'I' \ Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \
08:03:11 <fizzie> `` sed -e 's{>/tmp/a.c &&}{|};s|/tmp/a.c|-x c -|' bin/cc
08:03:12 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 37: unterminated `s' command
08:03:13 <stalem> i don't even get the whole point of it. 'look at my stuff, this is what i own'?
08:03:44 <fizzie> `` sed -e 's,>/tmp/a.c &&,|,;s|/tmp/a.c|-x c -|' bin/cc
08:03:44 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo "$@" | sed 's/\\/\n/g' | gcc -w -Wfatal-errors -std=c11 -O2 -x c - -o /tmp/a.out && /tmp/a.out
08:03:57 <fizzie> `` sed -i -e 's,>/tmp/a.c &&,|,;s|/tmp/a.c|-x c -|' bin/cc
08:05:56 <oerjan> stalem: wikipedia suggests it's to "teach public speaking", which is admittedly something no one ever taught me afair.
08:06:04 <fizzie> `cc #include <stdio.h> \ main(){puts("you ok?");}
08:06:08 <oerjan> so maybe i should regret we didn't have it
08:06:43 <stalem> fizzie: haha good point!
08:07:15 <stalem> oerjan: that's a pretty valid reason, but then again i must be the exception to the rule or that system doesn't work
08:07:34 <stalem> imo there are far better ways to teach public speaking than showing off material things your parents got you
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08:12:49 <fizzie> Our `cc is much less convenient than ##c's candide's ,cc, which does all kinds of intelligent stuff, like having an automated list of includes, handling #include <x> without manual newlines, wrapping a main automatically if not present (even extracting other functions out of the wrapper if you have mixed functions and code), supporting input, automatically printing local variables and the last ...
08:12:55 <fizzie> ... statement's value if you don't output anything, and so on and so forth.
08:12:58 <fizzie> I mean, compare `cc #include <stdio.h> \ int main(void) { printf("%zu", sizeof (int)); } vs ,cc size_t s = sizeof (int); which adds includes, wraps in main and auto-prints s.
08:13:24 <ashl> how is candide implemented?
08:13:24 <shachaf> fizzie: you should improve it twh
08:14:00 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> I should stop before I make someone very powerful* angry <-- maybe too late, according to /whois, walrus has a redhat cloak.
08:14:02 <fizzie> I don't think we need all of that, but maybe I could add the "automatically include standard headers" + main-wrapping parts.
08:14:16 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo "$@" | sed 's/\\/\n/g' | gcc -w -Wfatal-errors -std=c11 -O2 -x c - -o /tmp/a.out && /tmp/a.out
08:14:34 <fizzie> ashl: Huge gobs of Perl parsing code with regexps + lots of plumbing to run the stuff in a separate qemu VM.
08:14:52 <fizzie> Oh, and gdb for the "print locals and last statement" parts.
08:15:16 <fizzie> (You can also call into gdb from the code, to e.g. print types and such.)
08:15:34 <shachaf> Can't we just have candide join this channel?
08:15:42 <shachaf> That's what we do with all the other bots.
08:16:21 <oerjan> fizzie: `interp's cc already does a lot of that stuff, doesn't it?
08:16:34 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/cc: not found
08:16:40 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/gcc: not found
08:17:13 <fizzie> oerjan: Badly, but it does make an attempt, yes.
08:18:31 <fizzie> It broke for some things, although I don't exactly remember what.
08:20:04 <fizzie> `! c main(){ printf("%d", f(42)); } /* at least for this, though I guess you quite rarely need an explicit main */
08:20:20 <fizzie> It's supposed to try to compile both with and without the wrappings, but there was something wrong about that.
08:20:27 <fizzie> Oh, and the error messages are atrocious.
08:21:21 <oerjan> yes, what's wrong is that gcc these days supports putting essentially anything inside main, so the test for an error doesn't work
08:21:43 <oerjan> and there's no option to disable this
08:22:31 <oerjan> ! c main(){ printf("%d", f(42)); }
08:22:39 <oerjan> !c main(){ printf("%d", f(42)); }
08:22:45 <fizzie> Oh, I forgot the f() in there.
08:22:50 <fizzie> Well, *that* wouldn't compile anyway.
08:22:56 <fizzie> (It was left from an earlier test.)
08:23:06 <oerjan> !c main(){ printf("%d", 42); }
08:23:15 <fizzie> Huh, would you look at that.
08:23:19 <oerjan> `! c main(){ printf("%d", 42); }
08:23:22 <fizzie> Although it's still probably using the wrapper.
08:23:44 <fizzie> Also I have no idea how to use preprocessor directives with !c, since I don't know how to make a newline in it.
08:23:45 <oerjan> maybe we found some workaround that i've forgotten
08:24:56 <oerjan> doesn't it also use the \n trick
08:25:48 <oerjan> !c #include <stdio.h> \n int main(void) { printf("%zu", sizeof (int)); }
08:26:08 <oerjan> !c int main(void) { printf("%zu", sizeof (int)); }
08:26:20 <oerjan> `! c #include <stdio.h> \n int main(void) { printf("%zu", sizeof (int)); }
08:28:05 <fizzie> Yeah, I remember getting "No output." from it quite often.
08:29:10 <zemhill__> shachaf: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
08:29:10 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
08:29:36 <oerjan> is zemhill__ still broken
08:29:43 <zemhill__> shachaf: "!zjoust progname code". See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for documentation.
08:31:06 <fizzie> "SyntaxError: Unexpected end of input" on the web. Should probably look into fixing it.
08:31:23 <shachaf> spot of the SyntaxError, governor?
08:32:35 <fizzie> "shachaf.hi" did end up in the hill log.
08:32:49 * oerjan does an oots spot check
08:32:58 <fizzie> Maybe I'll just restart it.
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08:33:23 <fizzie> bfjoust@selene:~/bfjoust$ ./zhillbot.rb hill
08:33:23 <fizzie> /usr/bin/env: ruby: No such file or directory
08:33:32 <HackEgo> twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
08:33:55 <oerjan> fizzie: someone stole your precious minerals?
08:34:34 <shachaf> oerjan: what's your latest olist predicton
08:34:55 <fizzie> oerjan: I'm confused. There's no sign of ruby on the system, but it's worked before.
08:35:34 <oerjan> are you sure you didn't move servers
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08:38:20 <shachaf> oerjan: this vampire gaze thing seems p. powerful
08:38:21 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure, because I just ^c'd the bot and tried to run the same command from the bash history.
08:38:35 <shachaf> oerjan: apparently the only thing you can do is succeed in a will save
08:38:48 <shachaf> so maybe the vampire will keep using it every turn until it works
08:38:50 <fizzie> I did upgrade Debian releases, I think it lost ruby 1.9 and I had explicitly asked for that, so it didn't install 2.1 instead.
08:38:54 <shachaf> would make for a good storyline
08:41:36 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa whoa whoa, running water is anti-vampire
08:41:50 <fizzie> On the positive side, in the meanwhile the matrix library I was using (that kepts segfaulting etc.) has graduated from version numbers 0.0.x to 0.2.0, which maybe might make it not crash any more.
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08:43:03 <zemhill> fizzie.hi: points -31.05, score 3.57, rank 47/47
08:43:51 <fizzie> I remember spending hours and doing a really crazy distcc trick to get the matrix lib installed on the previous server, because it didn't have enough memory to compile the native parts.
08:44:06 <fizzie> At least this one has fully half a gig.
08:44:19 <fizzie> That's, like, one sixth of my phone's RAM.
08:46:00 <oerjan> shachaf: i keep wondering if anything could happen to free the trapped real durkon
08:46:25 <shachaf> who's to say what's real hth
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08:46:31 <fizzie> shachaf: I think so, yes. It seems like a strange but popular number.
08:46:40 <fizzie> Wikipedia claims it does.
08:47:25 <oerjan> and also i'm still wondering if the other priests will assist somehow
08:47:40 <fizzie> Although people at work have been recommending we'd explicitly not get Nexus devices for normal phone use, because our alpha test population is really skewed compared to the rest of the world.
08:48:05 <oerjan> and the freak probability of belkar showing up once more
08:49:17 <fizzie> What was the 'huh?' about?
08:49:31 <oerjan> hm, i never found that azure city new year celebration
08:53:06 <oerjan> right there http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0315.html
08:57:45 <shachaf> not sure what you're getting at twh
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09:00:44 <oerjan> shachaf: the calendar thing
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09:03:42 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa whoa whoa, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html
09:03:48 <shachaf> evidence that the world won't be destroyed
09:03:54 <oerjan> well still not much. it doesn't exactly say how long after solstice it is
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09:10:14 <shachaf> oerjan: hmm, durkon still needs to return home posthumously
09:10:23 <shachaf> so it seems unlikely that he'd be resurrected
09:10:43 <shachaf> though i suppose you could count everything as posthumous, even after resurrection
09:11:36 <shachaf> but he also needs to bring death and destruction when he returns home
09:11:43 <shachaf> all signs point to vampire
09:14:39 <fizzie> Sorry, that sign doesn't
09:15:00 <oerjan> what death and destruction
09:15:38 <oerjan> i do not recall that part.
09:15:57 <shachaf> that was the prophecy in book 0
09:16:14 <shachaf> now available for the first time in digital pdf format from gumroad
09:16:34 <fizzie> Do you get a cut or something?
09:17:21 <shachaf> admittedly it wasn't an oracle prophecy in particular
09:17:25 <oerjan> i will have none of your fake prophecies
09:18:12 <oerjan> i shall define canon as "only what i don't need to pay for" hth
09:18:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SPBCL]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44019 * Notjohnconway * (+1815) Created page with "'''Simple program-based computing language''' (SPBCL) is a Turing-complete [[esoteric programming language]] developed by [[User:Notjohnconway]] that are based off of the simp..."
09:19:27 <shachaf> oerjan: what about all the time investment hth
09:20:13 <oerjan> not relevant to my bank account hth
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09:33:23 <oerjan> GG prediction: finding that doctor will require Agatha to go to martellus's grandmother's party
09:35:57 <mauris> ^8ball is this always No.
09:36:13 <oerjan> fungot: thanks for clearing that up.
09:36:14 <fungot> oerjan: well, except fnord ( heh) hi yome! how's going the work on threading in gambit, but i prefer things to be potentially confused about. introduce it only after you are certain that they are not
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10:00:35 <b_jonas> how do I ask git to tell me the names of config files it uses?
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10:53:00 <fizzie> ^8ball is completely deterministic.
10:53:13 <fizzie> ^8ball And I mean more by that than just saying it's always no.
10:53:29 <fizzie> Anecdotally, it seems a bit no-biased.
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11:03:40 <oerjan> i detect a unique fixpoint hth
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11:27:26 <stalem> ^8ball has a Maybe answer?
11:28:01 <stalem> can i pipe arguments to `c? and if so how?
11:28:50 <stalem> e.g. `c main(args){...} | args...
11:29:05 <fizzie> There's no `c -- there's !c and `cc.
11:29:13 <fizzie> I don't think either supports command line arguments.
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11:29:17 <fizzie> Or standard input, for that matter.
11:29:21 <fizzie> They could easily, though.
11:29:35 <oerjan> you have gcc itself, anyway.
11:30:23 <fizzie> Candide ,cc lets you do -input=[...] at the end of the line, and the rest of the line will become the stdin. If not specified, stdin reads from `fortune`.
11:30:24 <stalem> hmm i thought `c was used earlier today, as short notation for `cc, but maybe that was !c?
11:30:57 <fizzie> Discounting spaces, digits, punctuation etc. (because all these letter frequency tables omit them), it looks like the ^8ball yes/no distribution should be 56.832% vs. 43.168% biased against one or another.
11:31:28 <oerjan> EgoBot's !c supports standard input if you use the !addinterp mechanism.
11:32:25 <stalem> there's a lot of commands and options and fun in this channel
11:32:25 <oerjan> stalem: that was probably `! c which is a port from EgoBot to HackEgo
11:32:33 <stalem> my brain is going to overload
11:33:52 <fizzie> That's a port of `thanks from HackEgo to fungot.
11:33:52 <fungot> fizzie: uh, sorry, i'll give you that
11:34:07 <fizzie> fungot: No, no, it's cool.
11:34:07 <fungot> fizzie: i can fnord on?" fnord fnord" fnord" fnord worried that there were more
11:34:15 <stalem> hah, soon i'm gonna need to write down a cheat sheet
11:34:16 <fizzie> fungot: You seem to be fnording on quite well.
11:34:16 <fungot> fizzie: hey bitwize :) good luck :) yeah, well, hrmm. i don't
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11:36:37 <stalem> hm so we have two bots, having multiple commands doing the same thing
11:36:43 <fungot> Thanks, tanks. Thanks.
11:37:11 <fizzie> Some of them were added as backups when one or the other bot was down/away.
11:37:11 <fungot> Thanks, tom thanks. Thom thanks.
11:37:45 <stalem> ah yes, backups are always a good option i reckon
11:37:57 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
11:37:59 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
11:38:02 <EgoBot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
11:38:12 <stalem> it'd be fun getting them to talk to eachother
11:38:18 <stalem> damn that's quite a handful
11:38:36 <fizzie> Of those, thutubot, metasepia, blsqbot probably aren't here any more.
11:38:40 <myname> the bots prefix messages with a zero width nonbreaking space
11:38:48 <fizzie> myname: Well, some of them.
11:39:02 <fizzie> E.g. fungot doesn't, it just has a hardcoded ignore list.
11:39:02 <fungot> fizzie: be a dear and pass on a multiple-values value in a range of ways to make the wings grow, i heard the name.
11:39:06 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|metasepia|ruddy|preflex|evalj|idris-bot|passwordBOT|jconn|applybot|blsqbot|fnordbot)!
11:39:14 <fizzie> Botloops are a proud tradition of the channels.
11:40:20 <fizzie> That ignore list is even more out of date.
11:40:58 <stalem> well, there's really no reason to clean it up innit?
11:41:09 <fizzie> No, I just keep appending to it.
11:41:15 <stalem> and if nothing else, it can serve as a piece of nostalgia
11:41:39 <fizzie> It's an owner-only command, since it also allows modifying it.
11:41:42 <stalem> aaah the good old times
11:41:44 <fizzie> It's technically not a list, it's a single regex.
11:41:58 <stalem> a regex with a list of matches?
11:42:11 <fizzie> Yes. So I guess it's still a list.
11:42:26 <stalem> hm but now you got me thinking is it really?
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11:42:46 <fizzie> Hard to say. The ! is part of the regex, and certainly not list-like.
11:42:51 <stalem> isn't it more of a boolean expression? or maybe it doesn't become that until the items are matched against the test string
11:43:20 <stalem> i think you were right the first time; it's simply just a regex!
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15:07:33 <tswett> I think that the ^8ball command is completely deterministic.
15:08:07 <tswett> Indeed, I know for a fact that the ^8ball command is completely deterministic if and only if the Riemann hypothesis is true.
15:10:51 <coppro> deterministic with respect to what inputs?
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15:34:39 <Taneb> ^8ball Am I Taneb?
15:34:49 <Taneb> ^8ball Am I Taneb?
15:42:20 <int-e> ^8ball did Taneb invent the 8ball?
15:42:40 <int-e> ^8ball Or did Taneb invent the 8ball?
15:43:03 <int-e> I just remembered... it uses the parity of the length of the input string.
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15:44:25 <Taneb> So, the Riemann hypothesis is true?
15:44:46 <int-e> It depends on how you ask, and how much meaning you attach to fungot's answers...
15:44:46 <fungot> int-e: when i go out to dinner with me? 3 messages in 36 seconds is too many.' will always be than o(1) vector access?
15:44:58 <fungot> int-e: i find both topics fnord expect more topics like befunge than sex/ gender/ tg ones...
15:45:05 <int-e> fungot: never mind
15:45:05 <fungot> int-e: something like 3 euros.
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15:45:58 -!- int-e has set topic: The fnord never strikes twice in the same phrase | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
15:48:47 <stalem> it's always a nice surprise when your code doesn't do what you expected, but the results are great anyway http://imgur.com/a/JDEar#3
15:49:30 * stalem goes on to turn it into a proper gif
15:52:54 <stalem> fungot: what do you think, is it a good idea?
15:52:54 <fungot> stalem: are we trying to do with the repl? why does it take to get scheme48 support :) then i love it
15:53:16 <fungot> stalem: ( i.e. flatt)) is cadr
16:08:40 <HackEgo> olist 1002: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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16:37:34 <stalem> fungot: do you enjoy coffee?
16:37:34 <fungot> stalem: nothing should be imposed upon other programmers due to the negative connotations associated with the word made ( though whether or not an rdbms, you're going to release next cfunge very soon.
16:37:51 <stalem> fungot: whoa ok nvm i asked
16:37:51 <fungot> stalem: which gets executed from the ram, spamd, mysqld and apache eat the rest argument list?
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16:50:34 <stalem> i find i'm quite ambivalent towards it. at least it's modern
16:51:56 <stalem> plus nowadays their doodles are quite entertaining
16:52:10 <stalem> like the minimoog one on moog's birthday iirc
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16:55:59 <Taneb> `quote natural numbers
16:56:01 <HackEgo> 395) <oklofok> god created the natural numbers, the rationals were done by man and the work was finally completed (topologically) by satan himself
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16:59:18 <int-e> ("God made the integers, all else is the work of man." - Leopold Kronecker)
16:59:41 <int-e> (But of course he didn't say it in English. Are translated quotes still quotes?)
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17:01:29 <HackEgo> 6) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 57) <fungot> ehird: every set can be well-ordered. corollary: every set s has the same diagram used from famous program talisman with fnord windows to cascade, someone i would never capitalize " i" \ 123) <cpressey> Never ever use a quot
17:02:06 <HackEgo> 123) <cpressey> Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb). \ 560) <monqy> never ever do bacon floats or i will hunt you down and kill you augh my leg
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17:47:07 <HackEgo> 1174) <shachaf> pippi långstrump's name is translated as "gilgi" or "bilbi" usually <ion> Does she have a ring of power?
17:47:38 <oerjan> power she has. if it's from a ring she hides it well.
17:48:30 <Taneb> ^8ball Are you Taneb?
17:48:45 <tswett> The fact that there are no quotes about onions is flamingly unacceptable.
17:54:38 <oerjan> tswett: does it bring tears to your eyes?
17:56:36 <fungot> oerjan: sounds odd. i can't use
17:56:53 <oerjan> oh wait it has to be first in the privmsg
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17:58:35 <oerjan> i guess the oracular geometry is the same, regardless of spelling
17:59:22 <shachaf> the first one is oracular trigonometry
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18:01:28 <oerjan> <int-e> I just remembered... it uses the parity of the length of the input string. <-- i don't think it's length...
18:05:52 <oerjan> ah looks like the priests won't be helping.
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18:08:11 <shachaf> oerjan: oh, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html is the other honorable soul thing i was looking for hth
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18:32:59 <nortti> idea: esoteric chat protocol. character encoding should be ita2 (with NUL) padding. thought about having even stuff like backspaces sent real-time, but then discovered ITA2 has no backspace/DEL char
18:33:35 <HackEgo> nortti boy. very nortti boy.
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18:34:31 <nortti> also thought about limiting communication to half-duplex so it could be implemented over some rather fun systems, and having either all clients in a network, or just servers, be connected in a ring topology
18:34:54 <nortti> so, if one drops, all communication dies
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18:35:44 <myname> so you cannot add clients?
18:36:08 <nortti> you can, but you must have two other clients agree to add you between them, and a network downtime
18:37:42 <myname> sending realtime together with token ring would basically make using it impossible
18:37:49 <myname> how do you deal.with that?
18:38:12 <fizzie> tswett: spoiler it's parity
18:38:21 <tswett> Of the sum of the characters or something?
18:38:52 <nortti> myname: maybe have it have something like "block channel until message has been sent" or like?
18:38:57 <quintopia> ^8ball Does this work by finding the parity of the character sum?
18:39:08 <quintopia> ^8ball Does this work by finding the parity of the sum of characters?
18:39:18 <tswett> Hey, let's get these out of the way.
18:39:26 <tswett> ^8ball Does he love me?
18:39:29 <tswett> ^8ball Does she love me?
18:39:32 <myname> nortti: maybe a ring without a token may be possible
18:39:35 <tswett> ^8ball Do they love me?
18:39:40 <tswett> ^8ball Does it love me?
18:39:52 <tswett> ^8ball Does ey love me?
18:39:53 <quintopia> ^8ball Is the answer to this question "No"?
18:40:12 <tswett> ^8ball Do you love me?
18:41:25 <tswett> ^8ball Does e love me?
18:41:29 <tswett> ^8ball Does hu love me?
18:41:36 <tswett> ^8ball Does peh love me?
18:41:39 <tswett> ^8ball Does per love me?
18:41:44 <tswett> ^8ball Does thon love me?
18:41:52 <tswett> ^8ball Does jee love me?
18:41:53 <myname> it's basically only a matter of time until somebody writes a script to reformulate sentences to get the desired answer
18:41:59 <tswett> ^8ball Does ve love me?
18:42:01 <tswett> ^8ball Does xe love me?
18:42:06 <tswett> ^8ball Does ze love me?
18:42:08 <tswett> ^8ball Does zhe love me?
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18:42:32 <tswett> Man, there are a lot of SGNPPs.
18:43:12 <myname> so basically every "even" letter is neutral
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18:43:51 <quintopia> but "s" is not even, so "he" is better than "she"
18:44:21 <myname> yeah. also, 0 seems to be no
18:44:31 <myname> hence the missing difference between x and xx
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18:48:22 <quintopia> so no script necessary. if you don't get the answer you want, add another ?
18:49:10 <myname> so, you ask that with two question marks and you are fine
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18:51:13 <HackEgo> [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE]
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18:52:04 <myname> it's pretty hard to type, though
18:52:19 <myname> i like the question mark better
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19:22:57 <myname> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.onemanband.thesequence looks like it qualifies as a bullying automaton
19:25:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J--]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44020&oldid=43931 * Oerjan * (+281) wikify
19:33:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hack VM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44021&oldid=43524 * Oerjan * (-2784) Undo revision 43524 by [[Special:Contributions/Phase|Phase]] ([[User talk:Phase|talk]]) (Copyvio: I can find no evidence the web page is public domain)
19:34:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] revision * Oerjan * Oerjan changed visibility of revisions on page [[Hack VM]]: Copyright violation
19:35:48 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: iirc a bully automaton can have long-distance effects in one step
19:36:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Jolf]]": Author request: content before blanking was: "A planned [[pyth]] variant in pure javascript for code golfing. --[[User:JayCampbell|JayCampbell]] ([[User talk:JayCampbell|talk]]) [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:2015]] [[Category:Unimplemented]]"
19:38:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ℒight]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44022&oldid=43528 * Oerjan * (+6) add some required darkness
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19:43:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44023&oldid=44009 * Oerjan * (+0) /* Partially Silly Ideas */ grm
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19:50:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[K]]": Copyright violation: Most of the content from the KONA Github. Also, not technically esoteric.
19:51:48 <oerjan> am i going to have to double check Phase's edits...
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20:02:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Phase]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44024&oldid=43328 * Oerjan * (+479) /* Copyright */ new section
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20:15:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tangle bracket language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44025&oldid=43566 * Oerjan * (+10) case, rephrase
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21:01:57 <b_jonas> Question on notation. Who or what introduced the notation in mathematical formulas where simultanously the bitwise and operator is written as & and the bitwise xor operator is written as ⊕ ?
21:02:52 <b_jonas> This is used in, I believe, Knuth volume 4, and Warren: Hacker's delight,
21:05:00 <b_jonas> and I like the idea, because it puts together the strengths of two notation: the one from C where they're written as & and ^ resp, and the old one where they're written as ∧ and ⊕, or ∧ and ∧overline resp.
21:05:09 <b_jonas> What's the unicode for ∧overline?
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21:05:46 <b_jonas> hmm wait, maybe it's not ∧overline, but something similar
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21:09:01 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 1d 14h 30m 32s ago: Have any improvements been made to Potion of Confusing since I last played it?
21:09:24 <zzo38> shachaf: I am not sure actually
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21:16:43 <zzo38> My new Dungeons&Dragons character has both blindsense and darkvision. The rules about blindsense says that it cannot be used to read stuff, does not subject you to gaze attacks, does not remove concealment miss chance, and that you do not generally have to make a Spot or Listen check to notice something that you cannot see, but some things are not explained including interaction with spells and with objects/creatures behind you and so on.
21:22:44 <b_jonas> zzo38: does he also have normal vision?
21:23:02 <zzo38> And also low-light vision
21:23:25 <b_jonas> does D&D even have such a thing
21:24:43 <zzo38> The way we play it can matter.
21:25:18 <Taneb> One D&D game I'm in the DM forgot that most of the party could see in the dark
21:25:36 <b_jonas> Just to be sure, low-light vision just means good eyes with large lens so it's more sensitive to low light, darkvision is some sort of active light-based sensing that lets you see in what would be pitch black but in a way similar to vision (possibly somewhat lower frequencies), and blindsense is what many eyeless creatures have so they can tell where to attack even if you're not adjacent, right?
21:25:51 <zzo38> All character have normal vision too by default. It seems unusual to have both blindsense and darkvision, as everything else I have checked in the book does not have both, but the rules seems to say that my character does have both
21:26:20 <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't know actually
21:26:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: are there many monsters that have both blindsense and normal vision in first place?
21:26:36 <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't know that either.
21:27:02 <b_jonas> I thought blindsense was mostly for eyeless monsters, though they _could_ coexist if you really want to.
21:27:57 <zzo38> I know that darkvision does not let you to see colors and does not work in magical darkness, but it does subject you to gaze attacks, and I expect allows reading too. You can still see colors in daylight though
21:28:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think that's because darkvision works in the infrared frequency range
21:28:24 <b_jonas> so the colors are very different
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21:28:39 <zzo38> Yes, I thought of that too
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21:30:22 <zzo38> Taneb: That almost had happened once I think, although it was a game where I was the only player (no other players are available) and none of the NPCs in my party could see in dark
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21:31:04 <b_jonas> maybe darkvision just lets you detect the thermal emissions in some of the near infrared range
21:31:31 <zzo38> Darkvision seem clearly enough in this game.
21:32:36 <zzo38> The limitations of blindsense aren't quite clear enough though, although it says some things, such as you cannot read and miss chance for concealment still applies.
21:33:52 <zzo38> But I would assume, blindsense can still be used while blindfolded but darkvision does not work while blindfolded
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21:35:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, I think darkvision is in your eyes, blindsense is on most of whole skin
21:36:02 <b_jonas> or most of the body surface, whatever it's made of
21:36:16 <b_jonas> or... I dunno for incorporal monsters
21:37:19 <Taneb> zzo38, the DM was had a great idea for this horrifying session
21:37:23 <Taneb> And it was a great idea
21:37:30 <zzo38> It says blindsense allows noticing things that you cannot see, and can be based on such thing as hearing and smell and so on
21:37:34 <zzo38> Taneb: What idea is that?
21:38:07 <Taneb> Very dark mansion, with something attacking us and running away before we could work out what it was
21:38:30 <Taneb> But because the barbarian and paladin could both see in the dark, it was like "Oh, it's a minotaur"
21:38:45 <Taneb> Which is still frightening, when you're level 2
21:38:50 <Taneb> But not actually horrifying
21:38:55 <Taneb> In quite the same way
21:40:20 <Taneb> Turns out the minotaur was someone wearing a cursed helmet
21:40:36 <Taneb> Which I almost wound up with
21:42:11 <Taneb> Well, I did wind up with it
21:42:14 <Taneb> I almost put it on
21:42:21 <Taneb> And had to struggle to get rid of it
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21:45:29 <b_jonas> Taneb: ah right... I think the rule in nethack is that minotaurs can wear helmets of soft materials (eg. leather or cloth), but not of hard materials (metal or wood), because of their horns
21:46:00 <b_jonas> still, a minotaur with a helmet sounds strange to me
21:46:11 <b_jonas> wouldn't that make it difficult for him to use his horn?
21:46:21 <b_jonas> he doesn't _want_ to wear it, probably
21:46:54 <Taneb> b_jonas, it was a polymorph curse
21:47:33 <b_jonas> I mean, D&D has some pretty nasty cursed equipment, even ones that are worse than that, but still
21:47:48 <b_jonas> does it at least polymorph you to something that can wear a helmet?
21:48:00 <Taneb> No, into a minotaur
21:48:02 <myname> i'd be fine being a minotaur
21:48:17 <b_jonas> ah, specifically a minotaru
21:52:20 <Taneb> It's got some mental cursey things too
21:52:36 <Taneb> iirc the horns were part of the helmet
21:52:37 <zzo38> A minotaur is a large size though, sometimes it mean you cannot fit somewhere else
21:53:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: exactly, and you can't fit in your body armor
21:53:02 <zzo38> So it can sometimes cause problems.
21:53:12 <b_jonas> which can _really_ hurt some characters who rely on it
21:53:19 <b_jonas> for others, it won't matter
21:54:02 <zzo38> There are many kind of curses and I have had some of my own kind of idea too
21:55:17 <zzo38> One I have seen in a book though is that a hit by a blessed crossbow bolt instantly kills whoever wears this item (this does not prevent the item from being removed normally though).
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21:55:52 <zzo38> But one of my idea can be, like in many computer game, a cursed item being worn cannot be removed; it must be uncursed or destroyed in order to remove it, but otherwise it is normal item.
21:56:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: how do you identify such a curse?
21:56:46 <b_jonas> like, that crossbow bolt one
21:56:48 <zzo38> But I thought of a further variant of that; in addition, the curse also improves the item's durability while it is being worn, making it more difficult to destroy (although the improved durability can be an advantage too, it can also be disadvantageous)
21:57:42 <zzo38> b_jonas: The one with crossbow I expect only if you can figure it out with a spell or something like that, or if you create the item with the curse so that in case anyone steals it you can kill them with a blessed crossbow bolt.
21:59:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: if you created such a thing, wouldn't you make it so you can kill them with a use-once password instead? or would that cost more to create?
22:00:08 <zzo38> I don't know; possibly.
22:01:09 <zzo38> But even if they can identify it, then they might not know that you have a crossbow, and maybe you also have a spell or something else to protect you from a crossbow
22:01:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: one of the curses that I like is one that reverses the magic of the item from an advantage to a drawback, eg. a ring of protection that would normally give you +2 AC is cursed so it gives you -2 AC, but if it's rare enough kind of magic, it can be cheaper to uncurse that ring than to acquire a new similar uncurse ring.
22:02:39 <b_jonas> someone who has ready access to uncurse spells could even trap their own magic items, so that if they're removed from their inventory, they're cursed. then if someone steals them or takes them in a battle, they're cursed, but their magic isn't lost, he can uncurse them if he gets them back.
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22:05:18 <zzo38> There are also many curses listed in Arms and Equipment guide which includes the one with the crossbow mentioned above; another, for items that must be activated, is sometimes it uses up two charges instead of just one; sometimes both charges functions but sometimes only one charge function and one is wasted
22:06:51 <zzo38> Another idea is a flaw that you can select, if you select this one then magic item don't work so well for you, such as only one wearable magic item at a time and activated magic items have a 5% chance to fail each time it is activated, and -2 to Use Magic Device.
22:08:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: there's also vain items, ones that don't let you use other items of the same class while they're in your inventory (or at least gives a high penalty when you're using them), eg. a cursed sword that doesn't let you use other melee weapons, so if you meet the one kind of monster against which the sword doesn't work well, you have a problem
22:09:06 <b_jonas> This is easiest for weapons, because many characters want to have two weapons with them.
22:09:55 <zzo38> If it does not also have a curse to prevent you from removing it, then you could try to throw it out, but then you won't have it anymore
22:10:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, but you might meet multiple monsters at once
22:10:30 <b_jonas> if you throw it out, something could happen with it
22:10:31 <zzo38> Yes that is possible
22:11:54 <b_jonas> Munchkin has a sword that I think is somewhat overpowered, which has only one drawback, namely that you can't fight an octopus with it (you must run away if you meet one)
22:12:07 <b_jonas> some very rare kind of monster
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22:13:41 <b_jonas> This seems a very weak drawback compared to other equipment with a comparable bonus. Those other equipment typically take up too many slots (eg. they're two-handed or large) or are restricted to a class or race.
22:16:59 <b_jonas> There's also something like that backwards, a vorpal sword that insta-kills monsters whose names start with "J".
22:17:53 <zzo38> Another kind of curse, for activated items only, can be when activated you take -2 AC for 1 minute, or something like that.
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22:18:33 <b_jonas> a worse version is one that paralyzes you for some time after you activate it
22:18:54 <zzo38> Yes, although either way the effect otherwise still works
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22:23:27 <izabera> is there any utf8 expert here?
22:23:39 <zzo38> izabera: What is it that you need?
22:24:03 <izabera> well i have 4 different wc's (one of which i wrote) that report 4 different number of utf8 characters for the same file
22:24:37 <mauris> i can think of many reasons why that would happen
22:24:48 <zzo38> izabera: I would just not count bytes in the range 0x80 to 0xBF, that is a simple way
22:25:29 <izabera> well that's chopping away a lot of characters
22:26:20 <zzo38> Some flaws given in this book include: Feeble = -2 to Str/Dex/Con ability checks and skill checks; Frail = -1 HP per level; Inattentive = -4 Listen, -4 Spot; Meager Fortitude = =3 Fortitude; Noncombatant = -2 melee attack roll; Slow = half of your base land speed; Vulnerable = -1 AC.
22:26:54 <zzo38> I would want to make up some of my own too, one which make you cannot use magic items so effectively, is one of my idea.
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22:27:20 <mauris> zzo38: some would argue that \x61 \xCC \x81 is one UTF-8 character á
22:28:00 <fizzie> Some would argue that wc would be expected to count code points.
22:28:27 <mauris> it's all really messy! why are people so interested in "the length of a string" anyway imo
22:28:55 <zzo38> I would expect you should need a different program for counting codepoints as for counting bytes anyways, such as "wcutf8" instead of just "wc" can be used.
22:28:56 <izabera> `` printf '\x61\xCC\x81' | wc -m
22:29:45 <fizzie> `` unidecode $(printf '\x61\xCC\x81')
22:29:46 <HackEgo> [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0301 COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT]
22:30:35 <zzo38> Maybe "wc -m" is also locale-specific though; it seem that with C locale it is 3
22:31:03 <zzo38> But you could also use "utftovlq 18 | wc -c" to count UTF-8 codepoints.
22:31:07 <fizzie> izabera: Anyway, zzo38's method succeds in counting code points because all UTF-8 code point encodings are either (a) one byte between 0x00..0x7f, or (b) multiple bytes, of which exactly one (the first one) is 0xc0 or higher.
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22:32:50 <izabera> do i have to include 0x80 and 0xBF ?
22:33:17 <zzo38> No you do not count them
22:33:35 <zzo38> All bytes 0x80 up to 0xBF inclusive are not counted.
22:33:45 <mauris> this method breaks for invalid utf-8 strings, but honestly, what doesn't?
22:34:50 <zzo38> Yes, although if it is invalid then what you have to do depend much on what you are trying to make anyways, so it doesn't matter here.
22:34:57 <zzo38> Use separate program to verify if you need it
22:35:37 <stalem> now soothe your souls with https://vimeo.com/138247957 , my way of friday fun
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22:37:44 <mauris> import sys; print(len(sys.stdin.buffer.read().decode('utf-8'))) # wcutf8.py
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22:38:19 <zzo38> Yes that is another way, if you are using Python
22:38:21 <mauris> please use something like that instead of a nasty byte-level hack :<
22:38:58 <mauris> (oh yeah, it's python 3, specifically; i don't think it will work on python 2)
22:39:25 <zzo38> I just used "utftovlq 18 | wc -c" to count UTF-8 codepoints, it is a hack too but can use an existing program (although not a common one; it is one I wrote)
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22:46:17 <zzo38> Also how much memory would your Python program use though?
22:48:58 <mauris> oh, .read() does make a big byte string, probably a bad idea for very huge files
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22:50:54 <zzo38> Yes it is why, I used the other way instead.
22:51:28 <hppavilion[1]> What is why you used what other way instead of what?
22:51:38 <zzo38> It is a program I wrote for a different purpose but now we can use for this purpose too.
22:51:48 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: See the recent logs in case you do not know the context
22:54:57 <hppavilion[1]> Can you just give me a brief description of what you're making?
22:56:04 <zzo38> Counting how many UTF-8 character of input.
22:56:39 <zzo38> I used "utftovlq 18 | wc -c" since it is program I already have.
22:57:36 <idris-bot> (input):1:1: error: expected: ":",
23:10:04 <mauris> (shachaf: i don't think this scow idiom exists outside of "things shachaf says on irc" :( are they remarkably shitty boats?)
23:10:42 <mauris> maybe it's from hebrew twei
23:10:43 <shachaf> But the origin is related to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_scow
23:11:18 <shachaf> "the scow of X" means something like "the worst specimen of X"
23:11:29 <shachaf> Something can be a scow, or it can just be scow. Or utter scow.
23:11:45 <shachaf> I shouldn't be saying this in a logged channel.
23:12:01 <shachaf> Don't want it in Google search results.
23:12:35 <zzo38> Then program the robots.txt of the logs to not be use with Google, if that is how you want
23:12:56 <shachaf> I'm not the one keeping the logs.
23:13:57 <mauris> i found one result on google for "the scow of" that i *think* uses it in that sense, from the 50s
23:14:21 <shachaf> Unlikely. That sense was invented in 2013 as far as I know.
23:16:13 <mauris> where'd you pick it up from? (also is this stuff top secret, twewydwiigsr)
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23:28:05 <oren> hppavilion[1]: I'm home now
23:29:10 <hppavilion[1]> If one were to create a language in which one can define a potentially infinite FSM
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23:30:15 <mauris> do you know what the F in FSM stands for
23:31:48 <mauris> also, that sounds plausibly TC, yeah, every possible tape state for a TM corresponding to a state in the state machine
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23:52:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Graph rewriting]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44026 * Hppavilion1 * (+112) Created Page
23:52:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Graph rewriting]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44027&oldid=44026 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Fixed a link
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23:57:13 <stalem> just me, but i was just about to head to sleep
23:57:26 <mauris> "Rewriting denotes a form of computation where a data structure is replaced by a modified form of itself, sometimes repeatedly."
23:58:04 <mauris> that sounds vague! i mean isn't that all computations on a tape ever, in a way
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