←2015-09-03 2015-09-04 2015-09-05→ ↑2015 ↑all
00:01:07 <hppavilion[1]> mauris: A Tape is a Graph where every node has one link except the end, which has none
00:01:15 <hppavilion[1]> Assuming you implement the tape as a Linked List
00:01:32 <hppavilion[1]> Which you should >:(
00:01:44 <hppavilion[1]> s/>:(/>:|/
00:01:55 <hppavilion[1]> That's hard to read
00:02:02 <hppavilion[1]> Is that a fork bomb or something?
00:02:35 <hppavilion[1]> Oh
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00:03:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rewriting]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44028&oldid=35039 * Hppavilion1 * (+4) Linked to Graph Rewriting mauris
00:03:36 <hppavilion[1]> ...
00:03:37 <hppavilion[1]> That wasn't me
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00:13:45 <zzo38> Do you mean directed graphs?
00:14:24 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Me?
00:14:31 <hppavilion[1]> No
00:14:35 <hppavilion[1]> Just graphs in general
00:15:13 <zzo38> If you want to know which direction is the tape then it should be a directed graph
00:15:45 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Ah
00:16:28 <zzo38> I have looked at BANCStar. It is certainly *not* the worst thing ever invented, although there are many bad design stuff in it, it seem like. But many things are not known about it so this wouldn't even be known perfectly; but at least I can try to figure out what some things are expect to be, by looking at the few information available (including the printout of part of one program)
00:17:55 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: It most certainly is
00:18:06 <hppavilion[1]> You do realize people were ACTUALLY REQUIRED TO USE IT, right?
00:18:20 <zzo38> Yes, I do realize.
00:18:26 <hppavilion[1]> Huh
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00:22:33 <zzo38> I have studied it, and it most certainly is not. It looks like more easily to program in than most other kind of machine codes, when use for the domain-specific use. But this would require that you program it by yourself rather than in a team, where such thing would seem unsuitable. Also some of the details described before the printouts were released was wrong or partially wrong as far as I can tell.
00:22:57 <zzo38> Still it has many limitations
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00:26:50 <zzo38> Many of the things I have figured out differ from what is in the esolang wiki article of BANCStar; I mentioned my findings in the talk page.
00:34:16 <zzo38> For example, command 3100 is not mentioned in the article, and it doesn't say what "Future Date 360" mean, although I have some ideas of how various things work, based on how they are used in the available programs.
00:35:28 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I think I gave an answer to your "infinite FSM" question.
00:36:03 <tswett> "Infinite finite state machine" is a contradiction; it'd just be an "infinite state machine". A Turing machine could be said to be a type of "infinite state machine".
00:37:57 <zzo38> Command 8000 uses PC colour codes and not ANSI colour codes. If bit7 is set then the text blinks; if bit3 is set then the foreground uses bright colours.
00:42:45 <Jafet> Not-necessarily-finite state machines
00:43:17 <hppavilion[1]> Thank you, Jafet
00:43:22 <hppavilion[1]> Also, right tswett
00:43:24 <hppavilion[1]> I think you did
00:43:25 <hppavilion[1]> Whoops
00:43:29 <hppavilion[1]> Bad memory sometimes
00:44:28 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making a Combinatory/Functional 2D Language
00:44:29 <hppavilion[1]> :)
00:46:30 <zzo38> I have updated my QUACKVM now all 32 instruction opcodes are defined (the three new ones are: LONGCALC, INTBL, EXTOP), and the Minesweeper game is updated to use LONGCALC for calculating average scores.
00:47:00 <hppavilion[1]> ...
00:47:03 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: You win
00:48:24 <zzo38> I win at what? Minesweeper game? I did win once
00:49:05 <hppavilion[1]> At stuff development
00:49:10 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making a language
00:49:13 <hppavilion[1]> You're making a VM
00:49:16 <hppavilion[1]> You win at thing making
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00:50:05 <zzo38> O, OK
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00:51:58 <izabera> ever played non-flagging minesweeper?
00:52:03 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: No
00:52:17 <zzo38> No
00:52:23 <izabera> it's regular minesweeper but you must never mark bombs
00:52:41 <izabera> the goal of the game is still unchanged, open all the non bomb squares
00:52:56 <izabera> but you have to keep track of the bombs in your mind
00:53:15 <hppavilion[1]> Or, y'know, actually check before clicking
00:53:21 <zzo38> I have not played it but it should be easy enough to modify the Minesweeper game I wrote to do that if you want that
00:53:34 <zzo38> (You are free to make other modifications too; it is all public domain)
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00:54:27 <izabera> oh it doesn't need any modification
00:54:32 <izabera> just don't mark bombs
00:54:56 <hppavilion[1]> Is there any critisism of this community?
00:55:02 <zzo38> Yes, it doesn't need any modification, although if you want to prevent it from allowing you to mark bomb then you can do that.
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00:59:31 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Where can I find this "QUACKVM"?
01:00:44 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/prog/quackvm.zip
01:00:51 <zzo38> Note the documentation is incomplete, sorry
01:00:57 <hppavilion[1]> It's fine
01:01:04 <hppavilion[1]> Better than anything I've ever made xD
01:02:33 <zzo38> To use the assembler, put the input filename on command-line and redirect stdout to the file used for output. To use the runtime, put the ROM filename followed optionally by the disk filename. The current version may require xterm
01:04:31 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
01:05:37 <zzo38> Also, to compile the C source-codes you can use "bash" on them.
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01:06:36 <hppavilion[1]> Ugh
01:06:43 <hppavilion[1]> My computer is so slow
01:06:47 <hppavilion[1]> I need to download more RAM
01:06:48 <hppavilion[1]> xD
01:08:51 <hppavilion[1]> What should I call my function-oriented 2D language?
01:09:40 <zzo38> I don't know
01:09:50 <zzo38> (A lot of things I don't know!!)
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01:19:27 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: now, when you say "functional", do you mean that functions act as ordinary values?
01:20:29 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Yes
01:20:39 <hppavilion[1]> The way python has "functional programming"
01:20:44 <hppavilion[1]> First-class functions
01:20:51 <tswett> I'll tell you what you should name it.
01:20:52 <tswett> One moment.
01:21:38 <tswett> All right. You should name it:
01:21:39 <tswett> fued
01:21:39 <tswett> cntn
01:21:39 <tswett> tnoe
01:21:39 <tswett> iori
01:22:06 <tswett> Or "fued / cntn / tnoe / iori" in contexts where line breaks aren't possible.
01:22:28 <hppavilion[1]> What does that mean?
01:22:29 <hppavilion[1]> xD
01:22:50 <tswett> It's the phrase "function oriented" arranged in a certain way in two dimensions.
01:23:09 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
01:23:15 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett you can't solve all of life's problems with hilbert curves
01:23:29 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
01:23:36 <hppavilion[1]> A Hilbert Curve
01:25:57 <hppavilion[1]> I like that name because it's hard to remember xD
01:26:15 <hppavilion[1]> FCTI for short
01:33:37 <tswett> Nah, you gotta abbreviate it using the diagonal. FNOI.
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01:37:33 <hppavilion[1]> Oh right
01:37:48 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe I should call it Fnord so no one else can name theirs fnord xD
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01:55:29 <MDude> It should have assignment that goes something like "the <variable name> is behind <value>"
01:56:10 <izabera> fwiw this is the random crap generator http://arin.ga/iZe8Kf/raw
01:56:12 <izabera> it's pretty fast
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01:57:24 <izabera> it produces 4gb in less than 19s on my system
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02:06:05 <zzo38> "Bad at Magic Devices" flaw: You get -4 to Use Magic Device checks and -2 to all other skill checks related to magic items. Any magic item you are in contact with, except scrolls, have a 5% chance each round to not function (only roll to check if you are trying to activate it or it provides a bonus that is relevant to the situation). Cannot be selected unless you have at least 1 rank of Use Magic Device.
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02:08:36 <zzo38> I don't know if it is sufficiently severe or if it is too much severe or too complicated or too simple.
02:16:51 <zzo38> Another idea for magic items is that some special abilities of shields and weapons and so on can be suppressed on a commands; a minor curse can be to disallow suppressing them in this way.
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02:34:14 <zzo38> Such effects can include: arrow catching (shield), etherealness (armor), defending (weapon; fixes the AC bonus to max), flaming (weapon), frost (weapon), ghost touch (weapon; always considered incorporeal touch), merciful (weapon), x-ray (ring), cube of frost resistance (wondrous).
02:50:04 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: (I know you are not on) You can't prevent others from naming theirs the same thing; we already have to esolangs called "Clue" in esolang wiki
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03:10:32 <hppavilion[1]> Very Strongly Typed Language: Variables can't change value
03:10:39 <hppavilion[1]> (But it's still imperative)
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03:32:19 <hppavilion[1]> It's funny that Turing himself was a Turing Machine (sans unbounded memory, of course)
03:36:09 <hppavilion[1]> We need a 2D OO Lang! STAT!
03:39:15 <zzo38> OK, try to make one up if you know how
03:39:31 <MDude> There's a language called Fourier, but it's not actually about approximating functions via Fourier series.
03:42:44 <MDude> I think that would be a nice abstraction in that it would allow one to define a function imprecisely.
03:43:44 <MDude> And allow such a foolish thing as lossy compression of code.
03:44:11 <zzo38> OK then make up that one! I like that kind of idea too
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03:52:21 <MDude> I'm pretty sure I'll want functions to be able to have at least two inputs, so I hope the principle behind Fouriers series applies to cymatic patterns.
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04:22:53 <oren> Tell me, Visual Studio, how is "UInteger" simpler than "Uint32"?
04:24:55 <Sgeo_> usize != u32
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06:59:27 <fizzie> http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/sep/02/london-clinic-accidentally-reveals-hiv-status-of-780-patients "We recalled/deleted the email as soon as we realised what had happened." What does that even mean.
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07:00:43 <fizzie> Sending another email asking for the recipients to delete the previous one?
07:01:40 <shachaf> fizzie: Haven't you ever seen an email being recalled/deleted from your inbox?
07:01:45 <shachaf> Clearly it works very well.
07:03:54 <mauris_> classy https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/812f0b604f0d99457ec3cfcb96aa7163c564de01/0_7_840_504/master/840.jpg?w=1920&q=85&auto=format&sharp=10&s=228963e4a63e190b936e19b3fc0a413c
07:04:43 <mauris_> we would like to recall our email with 780 recipients' contact info in it by sending another email with 780 recipients' contact info in it
07:07:36 <fizzie> It also asks everyone to notify them by replying; wonder how many reply-alled, adding more messages like that.
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09:39:26 <Taneb> I had a weird dream, Phantom_Hoover was there
09:39:35 <Taneb> Even though I have no idea what Phantom_Hoover looks like
09:39:37 <Taneb> I just knew
09:39:38 <Taneb> It was him
09:40:49 <Taneb> And we were at a generic campus university
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09:41:25 <Taneb> More grassy and hilly than York's west campus and more cluttered and busy than the east campus
09:41:41 <Taneb> Simon Lane of Yogscast fame was there
09:41:49 <Taneb> As was the robot bunny from Homestuck
09:42:14 <Taneb> There was a zombie apocalypse going on or something
09:42:24 <fizzie> Taneb: Was there a floating "Phantom_Hoover" label above them? It might have been a virtual reality scenario rather than a dream.
09:42:47 <Taneb> fizzie, no, I just knew he was Phantom_Hoover
09:42:57 <fizzie> Perhaps that's how it goes in the real world too, then.
09:43:02 <Taneb> I then had another dream where I explained this first dream
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09:43:15 <Taneb> And some other things happened
09:43:18 <Taneb> And then a third dream
09:43:24 <Taneb> Which I have completely forgotten
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09:45:28 <fizzie> I was at the Trinity College Dublin campus a while ago, just being a tourist. They have more pillars than Aalto University.
09:45:48 <fizzie> And a much fancier-looking library, too.
09:45:54 <fizzie> (Also more tourists.)
09:46:11 <Taneb> York doesn't have much in the way of pillars
09:46:15 <Taneb> Well, it has a few
09:46:29 <fizzie> http://irish-net.de/files/trinity_college_bibliothek_1.jpg <- it's like this except full of tourists
09:46:33 <Taneb> But a lot of those were built in the past few years in a modern style
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09:46:38 <fizzie> Actually, I might have a realistic photo of it.
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09:48:12 <Walpurgisnacht> Mmm so many nicks taken
09:48:20 <Walpurgisnacht> Looking for one for me bot ;-;
09:49:02 <fizzie> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4J9OAzXNfZAUGlFYWtZcGxjTWs/view?usp=sharing <- that's what it looks like if you're a pleb.
09:49:15 <fizzie> (And can't get to the balcony or order everyone else out.)
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09:53:24 <Taneb> fizzie, that is a nice photo
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09:58:22 <fizzie> It's a nice place. Although I think the business of having a decreasing shelf height as you go upwards, and meticulously finding just the right-sized books to stuff every shelf, was a bit overdone.
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09:59:50 <fizzie> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4J9OAzXNfZARG92UzdRaURHcFk/view?usp=sharing <- as seen here, although there was another bookshelf that was more extreme about it.
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12:05:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44029&oldid=43994 * 72.74.32.143 * (+209) /* Language Details */
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13:17:08 <fowl> `unicode 🐫🐪
13:17:14 <HackEgo> U+1F42B BACTRIAN CAMEL \ UTF-8: f0 9f 90 ab UTF-16BE: d83ddc2b Decimal: &#128043; \ 🐫 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+1F42A DROMEDARY CAMEL \ UTF-8: f0 9f 90 aa UTF-16BE: d83ddc2a Decimal: &#128042; \ 🐪 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
13:20:02 <oerjan> `unidecode 🐪
13:20:03 <HackEgo> U+1F42A DROMEDARY CAMEL \ UTF-8: f0 9f 90 aa UTF-16BE: d83ddc2a Decimal: &#128042; \ 🐪 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
13:20:24 <oerjan> oh wait it was just 2
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13:36:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44030&oldid=44029 * SuperJedi224 * (+11) /* Comments */
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13:55:06 <ashl> i'll see your camels and raise you 🎑
13:55:12 <ashl> `unidecode 🎑
13:55:13 <HackEgo> U+1F391 MOON VIEWING CEREMONY \ UTF-8: f0 9f 8e 91 UTF-16BE: d83cdf91 Decimal: &#127889; \ 🎑 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
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14:14:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShortScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44031&oldid=44011 * Dennis * (+1)
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14:16:14 <mauris> hmm, i wonder: what's the lowest positive integer n for which the brainfuck program that moves to cell n to the tape and halts is shorter than n bytes?
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14:18:35 <mauris> (possibly modifying the tape, of course)
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14:22:18 <mauris> >-[>[>]+[<]>-]>[>] halts pointing at tape[257] (assuming it's left-bounded, 8-bit)
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14:29:28 <fizzie> I'm sure you could get lower than 257 just by replacing the initial - with some suitably small multiplication that's barely enough to get past the length of the program.
14:29:44 <fizzie> Also, is the first > needed in the "[>[>]" fragment? seems like "[[>]" would be equivalent.
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14:32:32 <fizzie> The Brainfuck constants page might help in that. Your [>[>]+[<]>-]>[>] footer adds about 16 bytes, so you want a lowest constant for value N, length L such that (approximately) N = L+16.
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14:34:36 <mauris> oh, you're right, i don't need that >
14:34:49 <fizzie> (Modulo some fiddling about where the constant value gets left and whether it leaves any cruft on the tape.)
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14:36:38 <fizzie> >-[-[-<]>>+<]>[[>]+[<]>-]>[>] seems to halt on cell 38, and looks shorter than that.
14:37:01 <fizzie> (Used, pretty randomly, the >-[-[-<]>>+<]> constant for 33.)
14:37:20 <fizzie> For the record, I'm not claiming this construction will answer your question, but it's one way to drag the upper bound down.
14:38:08 <mauris> yeah, i was thinking of multiplications, and that looks like a pretty good one
14:38:37 <fizzie> >+[--[<]>>+<-]>[[>]+[<]>-]>[>] halts on cell 33 and is 30 bytes long.
14:38:54 <fizzie> I think that cell 33 is 0-indexed, so let's say 34 instead.
14:41:13 <myname> why isn't [>] an endless loop there?
14:41:31 <mroman> fnird.
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14:42:07 <mauris> myname: it seeks the first zero cell, going right
14:42:19 <myname> ah
14:42:32 <myname> yeah, i reversed it in my head
14:42:35 <myname> stupid
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14:44:59 <myname> fizzie: the part about the 34 sounds wrong. the empty program is zero bytes long and moves to 1 and i won?
14:47:57 <mauris> fizzie: >----[[>]+[<]>---------]>[>] is 28 bytes and halts on 30
14:48:19 <mauris> myname: i'm counting from zero. so >>> moves to position 3
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14:55:19 <mauris> fizzie: i found a really elegant one :)
14:56:04 <mauris> +[[->>++<<]>>] is 14 bytes and moves to position 16
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14:56:32 <mauris> by doubling a cell and moving it 8 times, until it hits 256(=0).
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14:59:43 <mauris> this is cool, because i *think* you can just brute-force check all brainfuck programs that are 13 bytes or shorter and satisfy some "obvious" constraints a solution would need
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15:02:09 <mauris> > sum [6^n + (n+1)*(n+2)`div`2 | n <- [1..11]] `div` 2 -- a generous upper bound on the amount of those?
15:02:12 <lambdabot> 217678414
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15:18:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Monkeys]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44032 * Martin Büttner * (+537) Created page with "After some testing, the reference implementation seems to contradict the spec in several ways: 1) the initial setup appears to be transposed and 2) Monkeys are incremented eve..."
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15:32:27 <tswett> Fun fact.
15:32:48 <tswett> In homotopy type theory, there's a type S such that there are infinitely many functions S -> S, but only two of them are invertible.
15:33:34 <tswett> Countably infinitely many functions S -> S, in fact.
15:34:02 <ashl> why?
15:34:04 <mroman> I should continue working on Gulf.
15:37:00 <tswett> Why what?
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15:43:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Knowledge * New user account
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15:51:58 <ashl> why is there such a type :P
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16:26:55 <tswett> Well, the space is generated by one point and one automorphism of that point.
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16:29:06 <tswett> So a function S -> S must map the point in S to a point in S (there's only one option), and the generating automorphism to an automorphism of that point (there are countably many options--they're the integers).
16:31:54 <tswett> `unidecode ℤ
16:31:54 <HackEgo> ​[U+2124 DOUBLE-STRUCK CAPITAL Z]
16:32:27 <ashl> why isn't there only one automorphism of a one-point space
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16:37:33 <ashl> perhaps it's not worth me asking this since i know nothing about homotopy type theory...
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16:54:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44033&oldid=43956 * Timwi * (+3) /* Overview */
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16:58:57 <hppavilion[1]> Hellu
17:00:28 <ashl> hullo
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17:04:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44034&oldid=44033 * Timwi * (+0) /* I/O */
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17:10:03 <hppavilion[1]> Are SKI combinators evaluated from the left or from the right?
17:14:18 <tswett> They're written with application being left-associative.
17:14:21 <tswett> abc means (ab)c.
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17:47:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShortScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44035&oldid=44031 * YourDeathIsComing * (+14826)
17:48:20 <Taneb> tswett, is that like saying there are countably many naturals (including zero) but only one you can negate?
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17:57:45 <tswett> Well, it's very much like saying there are countably many integers but only two that have reciprocals.
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18:29:53 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, lunch
18:30:01 <hppavilion[1]> Hello people
18:36:45 <fizzie> You had people for lunch!?
18:37:25 <hppavilion[1]> Yes
18:37:27 <hppavilion[1]> Yes I did
18:37:37 <hppavilion[1]> They came over and we had a nice lunch
18:37:39 <hppavilion[1]> -_-
18:37:39 <hppavilion[1]> No
18:37:44 <hppavilion[1]> It's currently my lunch hour
18:39:44 <tswett> So I'm thinking about my Amazing Final Computer Language.
18:39:58 <hppavilion[1]> Cool
18:40:02 <hppavilion[1]> Haven't heard of it
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18:40:58 <tswett> Currently, it has two features.
18:41:23 <hppavilion[1]> Which are?
18:41:29 <tswett> You can declare "varieties", and you can declare expressions in varieties.
18:41:34 <hppavilion[1]> Interesting
18:41:51 <b_jonas> tswett: is it final in the sense that it's a high level language that won't turn out to have been a low level language afterall in twenty years when new higher level languages appear?
18:42:01 <tswett> What I'm calling a variety is a variation on this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variety_%28universal_algebra%29
18:42:15 <tswett> b_jonas: well, it's final in the sense that it will effectively have every possible feature.
18:43:02 <hppavilion[1]> I want to design a language based entirely on constructing abstract machines
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18:43:26 <tswett> Now, many but not all kinds of algebraic structure are varieties in my sense.
18:43:41 <tswett> Groups are a variety, rings are a variety, categories are a variety.
18:43:59 <tswett> Cartesian closed categories are a variety. Finitely complete categories are a variety. Finitely cocomplete categories are a variety.
18:44:11 <tswett> Cartesian closed finitely complete finitely cocomplete categories are a variety.
18:44:16 <hppavilion[1]> Should I call it "Builder"?
18:44:23 <hppavilion[1]> No...
18:44:26 <hppavilion[1]> Probably not
18:44:31 <hppavilion[1]> That's a good working name for now
18:44:50 <tswett> Toposes are *not* a variety.
18:45:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44036&oldid=35308 * Timwi * (-3388) /* Hello, World! */ shorter version
18:45:40 <tswett> You could also define a version of the SKI calculus as a variety.
18:46:06 <hppavilion[1]> I like the SKI calculus
18:46:19 <hppavilion[1]> I prefer Lambda Calculus though
18:46:27 <hppavilion[1]> Even though I barely understand either xD
18:46:40 <hppavilion[1]> Well
18:46:50 <hppavilion[1]> I don't exactly "prefer" one over the other
18:47:21 <tswett> The definition would essentially be the following:
18:48:09 <tswett> "There are things called terms. S is a term. K is a term. I is a term. If x and y are terms, xy is a term. If x is a term, Ix = x. If x and y are terms, Kxy = x. If x, y and z are terms, Sxyz = xz(yz)."
18:48:54 <shachaf> tswett: "I am a term" hth
18:48:59 <tswett> os
18:49:06 <shachaf> what is os
18:49:11 <tswett> `? os
18:49:11 <HackEgo> Os is the accusative plural of us. Also a municipality in Norway.
18:49:50 <tswett> So, that's an example of a variety where equality is uncomputable.
18:57:34 <tswett> Now, you can use varieties to define data types. For example:
18:57:51 <tswett> "There are things called booleans. True is a boolean. False is a boolean."
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18:58:42 <tswett> Presumably you should be able to build data types on top of other data types, but I haven't figured out how that would work yet.
19:05:05 <tswett> This variety could represent a sum type:
19:05:39 <tswett> "There are things called left-values. There are things called right-values. There are things called sum-values. If x is a left-value, Left(x) is a sum-value. If y is a right-value, Right(y) is a sum-value."
19:08:37 <tswett> As for *how* it could represent a sum type...
19:10:01 <MDude> Not sure if I should go with discrete Fourier transform or discrete cosine transform for the language.
19:10:55 <tswett> You can fuse varieties together by taking two varieties and saying that one sort (or more!) from each variety must be the same underlying sort.
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19:11:34 <tswett> So if you have a variety meaning "a group" and a variety meaning "a monoid", you could stick them together and get a variety meaning "a group, a monoid, a third sort, and functions from the group and the monoid to the third sort".
19:11:39 <MDude> SInce discrete cosine transform is what jpeg uses.
19:11:43 <tswett> Which totally sounds summy.
19:12:17 <tswett> Well, Wikipedia says...
19:12:18 <tswett> "DCTs are equivalent to DFTs of roughly twice the length, operating on real data with even symmetry (since the Fourier transform of a real and even function is real and even), where in some variants the input and/or output data are shifted by half a sample."
19:12:20 <MDude> I could also make something where instead of describing waves at all, each function is a bitmap.
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19:12:48 <MDude> And you just send it an x and y coordinate, with the return being the luminosity at that point.
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19:14:44 <MDude> But I think that goes against the idea of making it easy to have programs that tend towards using smooth functions.
19:15:10 <tswett> Nb: I have no idea what you're doing.
19:16:36 <stalem> what's going on?
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19:28:03 <fizzie> Keep it real, go with DCTs.
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19:37:41 <MDude> So each function would be described a seris f waves, or wave pairs for two-input functions.
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19:38:58 <hppavilion[1]> I have a new thing to add to my shit-to-do list
19:39:22 <hppavilion[1]> An esoteric story about a superhero called Walrus Man written in dynamic hypertext
19:39:30 <hppavilion[1]> Interactive, no less
19:39:31 <MDude> Each wave set set just being the offset, frequency, and amplitude of each cosine wave.
19:45:22 <nortti> idea: program stack. a subroutine call is implemented by copying its code into the program stack
19:46:01 <MDude> I'll call it Codesign, so people will mispronounce it as "Co Design" instead of "Co(de)sine".
19:46:17 <nortti> so, like, you have A() { B(); C(); }, and the main prog is like A(); D(); → B(); C(); D();
19:46:49 <MDude> Oh wait, it'd be spelled Codesine.
19:47:08 <nortti> s/main prog/code stack/
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19:55:13 <hppavilion[1]> Instead of linear progression, a many-dimensional graph
19:55:22 <hppavilion[1]> Instead of the traditional Dramatic Structure
19:55:35 <hppavilion[1]> Its structure will extend into the complex plane
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20:42:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Codesine]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44037 * MDude * (+716) Created page with "Made because Fourier has nothing to do with Fourier transforms, but uses discrete cosign transfomrs to "keep things real". The primary idea of codesign is to have functions ..."
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20:42:44 <MDude> I should mart it as a stub.
20:44:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Codesine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44038&oldid=44037 * MDude * (+13)
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20:46:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:MDude]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44039&oldid=23980 * MDude * (+72)
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20:48:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Codesine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44040&oldid=44038 * MDude * (+23)
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20:50:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Codesine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44041&oldid=44040 * MDude * (+11)
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20:59:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Codesine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44042&oldid=44041 * SuperJedi224 * (+0)
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21:19:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Codesine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44043&oldid=44042 * MDude * (+258)
21:20:28 <MDude> I'm thinking I should maybe just ditch the previous function definition syntax in favor of this.
21:22:01 <MDude> Yeah I do that. Plus I need to include how variables work?
21:22:59 <MDude> Now that I think about if, mayube I should have a way to let variables represent something other than coordinates, like passing in the amplitude or frequency values as variables.
21:23:11 <ais523> I have revived The Underlambda Project (now in titlecase!)
21:23:32 <ais523> so far I have most of three specs, and a brainfuck compiler I have no way of running, nor any way of running the output
21:23:59 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:24:02 <ais523> @tell mauris 1, and oops
21:24:02 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
21:24:09 <ais523> hi oerjan
21:24:22 <oerjan> hi ais523
21:24:34 <ais523> I seem to have got really back into esolanging recently
21:24:36 <ais523> first WUUI
21:24:41 <ais523> and now I'm working on Underlambda again
21:24:43 <oerjan> aha
21:24:59 <oerjan> unlike me
21:25:18 <ais523> I don't think anyone else is working on Underlambda yet
21:25:30 <oerjan> i'm more than a month late at browsing Recent Changes
21:25:49 <oerjan> ...
21:25:51 <ais523> that person with the nick that's "esowiki" and a bunch of hex is testing boundaries, that's about it though
21:26:03 <ais523> in terms of things that need admin attention
21:26:24 <oerjan> i found a bit of copyvio by Phase in my slow catchup
21:26:51 <ais523> oh, well caught
21:26:59 <ais523> sorry, I haven't been as vigilant for copyvios as I should have been
21:42:09 <oerjan> @tell mauris <mauris> this is cool, because i *think* you can just brute-force check all brainfuck programs that are 13 bytes or shorter and satisfy some "obvious" constraints a solution would need <-- itym 14
21:42:09 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
21:44:02 <ais523> oerjan: context?
21:44:10 <ais523> (if you tell me what day I can look for it in the logs)
21:44:38 <oerjan> smallest number such that there exists a shorter brainfuck program that moves to that cell number, then halts
21:45:07 <ais523> ah right, sort-of like a busy beaver
21:45:16 <oerjan> <mauris> +[[->>++<<]>>] is 14 bytes and moves to position 16
21:45:20 <ais523> that requires the use of a wrapping impl, though
21:45:53 <ais523> the brainfuck-to-underlambda-in-underlambda-parser-framework compiler I just wrote (untested because both the implementation and target language are unimplemented)
21:46:04 <ais523> uses cells that go down as far as -1 (and saturate there), and up to infinity
21:46:26 <oerjan> OKAY
21:46:54 <ais523> ugh, yesterday's logs contain invalid UTF-8 in some lines and UTF-8 in others
21:47:06 <ais523> meaning my browser refuses to show them in anything but Latin-1
21:47:18 <ais523> (err, anything useful, I could set it to like latin-5 or something)
21:47:44 <oerjan> hm Timwi is back
21:47:56 <b_jonas> ais523: what? won't the browser still show it in utf8 if you ask nicely, with the non-utf8 characters shown as replacement characters?
21:48:14 <ais523> b_jonas: no, it tries to download the page instead for some reason
21:48:27 <ais523> presumably because it detects it as "not a text file" due to being misencoded
21:49:31 <b_jonas> huh ok
21:49:42 <oerjan> not very good for irc logs
21:50:36 <ais523> actually, isn't being misencoded the /only/ reliable indicator that something isn't a text file?
21:51:07 <oerjan> clearly there is no reliable indicator hth
21:51:30 <oerjan> there is shell code after all
21:51:30 <ais523> huh, zemhil is working again?
21:51:44 <ais523> oerjan: I'd claim the ASCII version of that is a text-binary polyglot
21:52:45 <oerjan> !zjoust apparently +[>+]
21:52:45 <zemhill> oerjan.apparently: points -43.31, score 0.49, rank 47/47
21:52:53 <oerjan> pretty fast
21:53:17 <oerjan> i guess running off the hill does that
21:53:30 <oerjan> !zjoust apparently []
21:53:31 <zemhill> oerjan.apparently: points -31.05, score 3.57, rank 47/47 (--)
21:53:38 <ais523> !zjoust growth <
21:53:38 <zemhill> ais523.growth: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-42)
21:53:50 <ais523> !zjoust growth2 http://sprunge.us/LTKQ
21:53:51 <zemhill> ais523.growth2: points 20.69, score 52.84, rank 1/47
21:53:58 <ais523> ooh, it's top of /both/ hills
21:54:06 <ais523> now if I could only remember how it worked :-P
21:54:40 <ais523> Lymia: the reign of nyuroki is over!
21:55:07 <ais523> oh good, I documented it already
21:55:11 * ais523 reads own docs
21:55:30 <oerjan> fizzie: zemhill is too fast, it'll make HackEgo jealous
21:55:39 <oerjan> possibly also EgoBot
21:55:47 <oerjan> !bfjoust apparently []
21:55:55 <EgoBot> ​Score for oerjan_apparently: 6.1
21:56:05 <ais523> oerjan: is that a pessimized version of nop.bfjoust?
21:56:20 <oerjan> hm i guess
21:56:45 <ais523> at least it automatically does at least as well as any other program that doesn't contain + or -
21:57:08 <ais523> !bfjoust slightly_better_nop (>)*9(+)*128
21:57:11 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_slightly_better_nop: 0.8
21:57:24 <ais523> haha, I know why that scores less than nop does
21:57:30 <ais523> !bfjoust slightly_better_nop (>)*9[(+)*128]
21:57:32 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_slightly_better_nop: 6.5
21:57:34 <ais523> that's better
21:58:03 <ais523> growth2 has four losses
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21:58:25 <ais523> omnipotence, both cupnoodles (which are identical), and stealth2
21:58:52 <ais523> mroman: could you delete mroman_'s copy of cupnoodle from the !zjoust hill? you currently have two effectively identical programs up there
21:59:57 <Sgeo_> Who was it who like Evillious, oren or nortti, I keep forgetting? I think https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOyp3qNqiTE&lc=z13wszjjroipfpvky23kyvrqtwetij2om04 dragonkeeper's reply to Yui the yandere makes a lot of sense (as a criticism of The Evillious Chronicles)
22:00:12 <ais523> also, if you want to see something unlike any other BF Joust strategies, see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/breakdown/#ais523.margins
22:00:19 <ais523> I've been slowly working on an improvement to margins but it's hard
22:00:30 <nortti> Sgeo_: it was me
22:00:37 <ais523> actually the score against space_hotel is my favourite
22:00:40 <ais523> one of the best programs of all time
22:00:44 <ais523> and it gets just marginally beaten
22:01:20 <nortti> Sgeo_: do you mean to link to a youtube comment there? I can't display them
22:01:34 <Sgeo_> nortti, yes. I'll paste it into a pastie
22:02:07 <fizzie> I should fix up those hill visualizations and make them run on the same system zemhill does, and automatically -- if not quite after every change, then at least every now and then if there have been changes.
22:02:13 <Sgeo_> http://pastie.org/private/eewazf5wi5lmh4faca
22:02:51 <Sgeo_> Also, did you see the new songs I linked a while ago which I mistakenly pinged oren for?
22:02:54 <fizzie> I think that would involve omg-optomizing them from the scipy/numpy/matplotlib to something a bit less memory-intensive.
22:03:02 <nortti> Sgeo_: yea, I agree
22:03:06 <nortti> Sgeo_: I did not
22:03:13 <ais523> when did you last run them manually? I'd be a little interested in how the hill looks atm
22:03:26 <fizzie> Quite long ago. I'll kick them off now, but it'll take a while.
22:03:37 <ais523> also, perhaps we should make submissions go to both hills? I can't see much of a reason why you'd want to submit to one hill and not the otehr
22:04:15 <ais523> also, thutubot used to turn up when I was online and someone requested it
22:04:16 <oerjan> that may be hard given there's a web submission form
22:04:19 <ais523> nobody's requested it in a while
22:04:22 <ais523> oerjan: oh right, good point
22:04:37 <ais523> how does the web submission form do authentication?
22:04:55 <fizzie> It doesn't, everyone submitting there is under the nickname "web".
22:05:19 <ais523> right, that makes sense
22:05:43 <fizzie> Having a letter in "web" that's not legal might have made slightly more sense, in retrospect, to keep the namespaces distinct.
22:05:51 <fizzie> Not legal for IRC nicks, I mean.
22:06:26 <oerjan> Web is registered, but not used since 2013
22:06:49 <ais523> right, because people on IRC can delete web programs
22:06:59 <ais523> fizzie: btw your front page contradicts itself about whether web submissions are eligible for the scoreboard
22:07:35 <fizzie> Oh, the "won't get your name" was referring to the "web." prefix.
22:07:41 <Sgeo_> nortti, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIaAnbMaCG8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL_YZsbE3Ro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGrdGXDcoGU
22:07:44 <fizzie> I guess you can still get your name by putting it in the program name.
22:07:48 <fizzie> It's not terribly clear.
22:08:07 <nortti> Sgeo_: ah, nice
22:08:21 <nortti> from the new album
22:09:24 <Sgeo_> I think those are the three new songs
22:09:34 <Sgeo_> If there are other news songs, I didn't notice
22:09:41 <fizzie> Gah, my mouse situation is really annoying. The old one I have keeps dropping things in the middle of drag-and-dropping, and doubleclicking when single-clicking; the new one from Amazon (same model) that arrived to day instead scrolls by itself maybe one page up or down every third time you release the mouse wheel after using it. (It's one of those freewheel Logitech mice, and there's ...
22:09:47 <fizzie> ... something wrong with the balancing, causing it to rotate to some particular orientation when at rest.)
22:09:54 <nortti> I remember there being 3 new ones, too
22:10:58 <Sgeo_> There were also other new songs a while ago I also think I linked oren, like Drug of Gold
22:11:18 <Sgeo_> For all I know you both like Evillious so I should be pinging both of you
22:12:45 <fizzie> Why is ais523.growth2 not appearing when I git pull.
22:12:57 <fizzie> It's visible in the gitweb.
22:13:09 <fizzie> Maybe I changed the URL.
22:13:10 <ais523> fizzie: you're pulling from the wrong repo or the wrong branch
22:15:46 <fizzie> That's what I'd assume, but it certainly doesn't look that way.
22:17:14 <fizzie> "git log --oneline" in the (bare) repository the URL in .git/config:[remote "origin"] is supposedly pointing at is 21 commits ahead, "master" is the only branch there (and gitweb also says head of master is your growth2 change), but "git pull origin master" says "already up-to-date".
22:17:41 <fizzie> And the local repository is also on branch master, and doesn't seem to be in any sort of weird detached head thing.
22:17:47 <ais523> what commit is HEAD?
22:18:35 <fizzie> "git log origin/master" (and git rev-parse origin/master) both say c9df5d1.
22:19:16 <fizzie> It's like it's just not fetching the remote refs, but that's just weird.
22:19:45 <ais523> the file isn't already there, I take it?
22:20:53 <fizzie> Nnno. And according to timestamps, it is updating e.g. the .git/refs/remotes/origin/master file, but it's not the same that's refs/heads/master in the remote repository directory.
22:21:07 <fizzie> Maybe it's actually not pointing at the directory I think it's pointing.
22:21:57 <fizzie> Oh.
22:22:10 <fizzie> Missing "git update-server-info" + dumb HTTP server.
22:22:16 <fizzie> I thought I had gotten that done right.
22:22:31 <fizzie> Well, that's more like it.
22:23:32 <fizzie> "generating tournament-wide plots ... /usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/numpy/ma/core.py:790: RuntimeWarning: invalid value encountered in less_equal"
22:23:55 <fizzie> Didn't bother to print a stack trace for it.
22:24:11 <fizzie> Well, if some of the plots look really weird, I'll know what to blame.
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22:25:14 <ais523> hmm, at one point one of my plans for Underlambda, the way it compared them was to take two to the power of each of the integers, then for one of the integers, made a lookup table of subtractions from that integer
22:25:20 <ais523> then looked the other integer up in the table
22:25:36 <ais523> then I decided that that would probably be far too slow in a non-optimizing implementation
22:27:48 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/egostats/ should now be up to date for growth2.
22:29:30 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making "A Hypertext Fairy Tail"
22:29:33 * ais523 looks
22:29:34 <hppavilion[1]> What should it be about?
22:29:48 <ais523> anthropomorphic animals, most likely
22:29:50 <ais523> most fairy tails are
22:30:22 <ais523> fizzie: to be fair I'm mostly interested in margins
22:30:29 <ais523> it is, as usual, hilarious in statistics
22:30:47 <ais523> huh, I didn't realise omnipotence would like short tapes though
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22:31:34 <ais523> I like the way that the dendrogram has a cluster for "good" programs, that's pretty much inevitable given how it's created
22:33:26 <ais523> also, I like the way that anticipation2 shows up clearly as a vibration program, because its "average value of opposing flag at end of game" value is so high (almost 90)
22:34:05 <fizzie> I keep thinking I should do something more clever about the clustering. I'd play around with our internal machine learning stuff, but somehow I don't think I'd be able to get *that* running on the zemhill VPS.
22:34:28 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow).
22:34:39 <ais523> hmm, if I were mentally clustering programs, I'd cluster them by strategy
22:34:51 <ais523> what they do in each phase of the game (decoy phase / rush phase / lock phase), for example
22:35:25 <ais523> I wonder how you identify the phases, too
22:35:46 <ais523> (misidentifying them is a common reason for programs to lose, incidentally; but if you have perfect knowledge of the tape it's much easier)
22:36:07 <fizzie> Sadly, they don't exactly unambiguously output their strategy in a machine-readable form. But people do impressive semantic stuff for languages and images and all that. I'm sure deep neural nets is the answer.
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22:36:52 <ais523> I think a program that deduced the strategy of jousters from watching them play might be fun to think about/write
22:38:07 <ais523> oh wow, so /this/ is why growth2 is doing so well: http://zem.fi/egostats/plot_p14_ptapeheat.png
22:38:24 <ais523> it has a much higher chance than I expected of successfully figuring out where the enemy flag is first try
22:39:53 <ais523> this also implies to me that growth2 can be reliably beaten via purposely screwing up your clear to start at the wrong place
22:40:02 <ais523> although that'd make your win rate worse against programs generally
23:00:39 <nortti> Sgeo_: do you know where it says it was eve who did the toragay poisoning and eluka is not actually eluka?
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23:05:21 <nortti> 01:10 < Sgeo_> There were also other new songs a while ago I also think I linked oren, like Drug of Gold ← you linked that to me
23:06:31 <shachaf> ais523: Any news on your thesis?
23:06:46 <ais523> shachaf: it's "online" but not public until December for some reason :-(
23:06:56 -!- Patashu has joined.
23:06:58 <ais523> I think there's some official date where I officially get a PhD and before then they're not allowed to officially acknowledge it
23:07:07 <shachaf> Can I bribe someone to get an early copy?
23:07:38 <ais523> come to think of it they're probably holding back the physical copies for the same reason
23:07:56 <ais523> I spent over 4 years with it, so I don't really mind waiting a bit longer
23:08:39 <shachaf> What will you be doing after you get a PhD?
23:08:48 <shachaf> Do you write more theses or what? I don't know how these things work.
23:09:04 <ais523> currently I have a job working on a research compiler (related to my PhD work)
23:09:11 <ais523> in fact I've already cited my own PhD in code comments
23:09:20 <shachaf> Which compiler?
23:09:23 <ais523> an old version of the compiler's online
23:09:29 <ais523> http://www.veritygos.org/
23:09:31 <ais523> (not my website)
23:09:52 <ais523> I didn't write it singlehandly but it's over 90% my code, I think
23:10:45 <shachaf> You worked with Satnam Singh on this thing?
23:10:56 <ais523> shachaf: yes, mostly to do with recursion
23:11:11 <ais523> the situation was that we wanted to claim to be the first to do something, and that's a pretty bold claim
23:11:20 <ais523> Satnam was one of the few people in the best position to know whether it had been done earlier
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23:17:18 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, finding previous research can be difficult
23:18:03 <b_jonas> there's a theorem I proved, then found out that there were three earlier proofs given in the seventies.
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23:52:00 <Sgeo_> nortti, http://theevilliouschronicles.wikia.com/wiki/Elluka_Chirclatia#Legacy seems like not one of the songs (for the Elluka isn't Elluka one)
23:52:29 <nortti> ah, ok. I did read the wiki, but it's not very good with referencing
23:53:04 <nortti> or, rather, with notes like "this was revealed in X"
23:53:06 <Sgeo_> http://theevilliouschronicles.wikia.com/wiki/Margarita_Blankenheim says the Eve thing but having trouble finding reference
23:53:54 <Sgeo_> I think the end of the world occurred in one of the books (Seven Crimes and Punishments), that saddens me because I was hoping for a song of it.
23:54:13 <nortti> :/
23:54:22 <nortti> any idea if it's been translated yet
23:54:23 <nortti> the book
23:54:31 <Sgeo_> It always feels like mothy was building up to some big reveal song regarding the end of the world, and now it's happened?
23:54:35 <Sgeo_> nortti, don't know
23:54:40 <Sgeo_> I haven't read it, do want to
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