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00:16:39 <Lyka> ++++++++[>++++[>++>+++>+++>+<<<<-]>+>+>->>+[<]<-]>>.>---.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<.+++.------.--------.>>+.>++.
00:17:11 <Sgeo_> !bf ++++++++[>++++[>++>+++>+++>+<<<<-]>+>+>->>+[<]<-]>>.>---.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<.+++.------.--------.>>+.>++.
00:17:13 <ais523> Sgeo_: !bf doesn't logread
00:17:24 <Sgeo_> ais523, I was testing if that was the correct command
00:17:31 <ais523> also, it's the return of Schrödinger's Cat!
00:17:37 <ais523> there are a few that work
00:17:45 <ais523> I forget what settings !bf uses
00:17:55 <fizzie> I think 8-bit cells and [something].
00:18:04 <ais523> Lyka: the thing is we couldn't exactly check if you were alive or not, for fear it would kill you
00:19:02 <fizzie> All of !bf, !bf8, !bf16 and !bf32 call into the same script, which sets BW from the command name, defaulting to 8, and then calls egobfi$BW.
00:19:31 <ais523> !bf ++++[>++++++++<-]>+>-[<.>-]
00:19:32 <EgoBot> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
00:19:44 <ais523> should be 256 exclamation marks there in an 8-bit wrapping impl
00:19:59 <ais523> (it'll measure the cell size in other impls too, but that'd be too many exclamation marks to fit onto one line)
00:20:06 <fizzie> And egobfi defaults to EOF-0, wrapping (actually, "wrappong", according to the README).
00:21:07 <ais523> fizzie: did I tell you I made a BF implementation which saturates at -1 going downwards, has bignums going upwards, and uses -1 for EOF?
00:21:19 * Lyka wishes she understood at least half of what you talk about here
00:21:24 <ais523> that doesn't run because it's written in an unimplemented language and compiles into another unimplemented language?
00:21:25 <fizzie> wrappong is a version of pong where, if your opponent misses, the ball wraps around, and the score isn't affected.
00:21:30 <fizzie> It's kind of like zen pong.
00:22:43 <fizzie> ais523: No, but it sounds like an interesting choice. I guess you can clear any cell with something like [--+]?
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00:23:11 <ais523> but [--+] is shorter, come to think of it
00:23:18 <fizzie> Possibly less efficient.
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00:23:45 <fizzie> The "two steps forward, one step back" method. Or maybe it's the other way around.
00:24:37 <ais523> Lyka: what did you expect that to do?
00:24:39 <fizzie> I think you want one initial + there.
00:24:52 <ais523> current tape element starts at 0, then the loop doesn't run because outputting it doesn't change the value
00:25:15 <ais523> fun fact: that BF program is the main reason that this channel is +C
00:25:29 <Lyka> i do not understand
00:25:35 <fizzie> And I think outputting a 0 might cut the output short on EgoBot.
00:25:36 <ais523> it could be that EgoBot can't output NUL
00:25:41 <EgoBot> ......... \ ..................... !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~
00:25:50 <ais523> NUL is used as "end of string" by many languages
00:26:10 <shachaf> Which is a scow convention, by the way.
00:27:53 <fizzie> ^bf ,....>.<....!same here
00:28:11 <fizzie> If I recall correctly, that's the STRN fingerprint using 0 as a terminator.
00:28:23 <ais523> hmm, Wiktionary defines "scow" as "A large flat-bottomed boat, having broad, square ends.", plus a verb "To transport in a scow."
00:28:28 <ais523> neither of these meanings seem relevant
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00:28:53 <ais523> now I want to try thutubot but don't think it /has/ a BF interp
00:29:01 <shachaf> pikhq knows what it means.
00:29:47 <ais523> yep, just Underload and Haskell
00:30:51 <pikhq> It's true, I know what it means.
00:31:48 <shachaf> "the scow of X" is something like the worst specimen of X
00:32:59 <shachaf> pikhq: I'm curious whether the word "victory" has made its way into the lexicon.
00:33:16 <shachaf> Probably it wouldn't happen before the next sauzzle.
00:33:18 <pikhq> I've not heard it.
00:33:54 <shachaf> Although the next sauzzle is never very far away...
00:34:31 <pikhq> For now, I am deeply contemplating a nap.
00:35:23 <ais523> I was going to say "well 'victory' is actually a real word", but so is 'scow', I guess
00:39:24 <pikhq> Why am I insufficiently sleeped?
00:40:57 <shachaf> ais523: Would you say "sauzzle" is a real word?
00:41:19 <ais523> shachaf: it's not one I'm aware of
00:41:33 <shachaf> You might be more familiar with an alternate spelling and tense.
00:42:07 <shachaf> I hear "sozzled" is common in the UK.
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01:19:10 <ais523> shachaf: yes, that's common in the UK
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01:55:53 <coppro> ais523: at my school, your degree is not officially awarded until the ceremony
01:56:15 <coppro> you can get it awarded early only if you have an actual need, such as to get a visa
01:56:26 <coppro> (to get a US visa, the customs officials must see your actual diploma)
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01:59:11 <ais523> coppro: hmm, you need a PhD to visit the US nowadays?
02:02:48 <pikhq> ais523: No, but certain visas may require proof of your education.
02:02:49 <coppro> ais523: on a TN work visa, which requires a degree
02:03:12 <pikhq> If you just want to visit and you're from the UK, you just show up.
02:03:15 <coppro> they won't accept "this person is confirmed to get a degree on such-and-such date", they need the actual degree
02:03:25 <coppro> pikhq: don't you need to sign up for a visa waiver dealie in advance now?
02:03:32 <coppro> I thought only canadians could just show up now
02:04:02 <pikhq> coppro: WTF really?
02:04:03 <ais523> I know a Brit who visited the US recently
02:04:08 <pikhq> I hate US immigration even more now.
02:04:09 <ais523> and had to fill out a bunch of forms online in advance
02:04:15 <ais523> meanwhile, when I visited Canada
02:04:23 <ais523> I was allowed to just turn up, but I had to fill out forms while on the plane
02:04:29 <ais523> and was given a short interview by border control when I arrived
02:04:34 <shachaf> coppro: whoa whoa whoa, you're moving to the US?
02:05:26 <ais523> shachaf: I don't think coppro has implied that?
02:05:42 <coppro> Canada will be the same as of next March apparently
02:05:54 <shachaf> I guess "whoa whoa whoa" has multiple meanings.
02:06:24 <coppro> for Canada, it's an online thing that according to the government website is usually approved within minutes, and the total cost is $7
02:06:54 <ais523> the whole "paper-form-on-the-plane-plus-interview" thing must presumably be quite expensive
02:07:14 <coppro> I don't think it cuts out the paper form. Maybe it does?
02:07:38 <coppro> the US one costs $4 to apply and $10 to get approved
02:08:02 <ais523> shachaf: when visiting Canada, I had to fill out a form while physically on the plane
02:08:54 <shachaf> It's possible to avoid that by traveling to Canada first.
02:09:35 <coppro> that's something different
02:09:52 <coppro> the Canadian form he's talking about is the standard customs declaration card, just saying who you are and what you have with you
02:09:58 <coppro> it's common to most countries
02:10:03 <coppro> (in different forms, obviously)
02:10:15 <shachaf> I'm talking about ais523's known Brit.
02:10:18 <coppro> also can you avoid the ESTA by going via Canada? nothing I've seen indicates that you can do that
02:10:38 <shachaf> coppro: If you arrive by land from Canada.
02:10:38 <ais523> shachaf: it was on a website somewhere, I don't really know the details
02:10:44 <shachaf> Or so https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_System_for_Travel_Authorization says.
02:13:29 <shachaf> I traveled from the US to Canada and back by land once.
02:13:43 <shachaf> It was much easier in one direction.
02:14:44 <coppro> let me guess. the to Canada direction.
02:15:35 <pikhq> Well yeah, by leaving AMERICA you've proven you're a muslimterroristantichrist
02:16:15 <coppro> ahhh ok so the ESTA replaces the I-94W form
02:16:35 <coppro> which visa waiver people used to have to fill out after landing
02:17:07 <coppro> I don't know if Canada had a similar form
02:17:19 <shachaf> coppro: But not in advance.
02:18:42 <coppro> now you need to do it in advance of leaving
02:26:30 <ais523> one thing that amused me was that at the airport where I landed in canada
02:26:40 <ais523> there were two sections, one for flights to the US, one for flights to the rest of the world
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02:26:48 <ais523> and the US part seemed to have much tighter security
02:29:02 <coppro> ais523: The US part has customs preclearance
02:29:16 <coppro> there are US customs officers there, and once you are through that you go through security and into a contained area
02:29:26 <ais523> ah right, so the idea is that you don't have to go through customs again in the US?
02:29:34 <ais523> this reminds me of the setup in the Channel Tunnel
02:29:41 <ais523> there are French border guards on the UK side and vice versa
02:29:51 <coppro> it's very convenient for a number of reasons. One of the big ones is getting to fly to smaller US airports
02:30:27 <coppro> since they can do customs clearance on the departure side, they don't need border officials at the other end
02:30:29 <ais523> (apparently we pushed for that several years ago to reduce the number of illegal migrants who managed to get onto a Eurotunnel train via the usual channels and then claimed asylum while on UK soil but before getting through customs)
02:30:41 <ais523> (because nowadays our border officers can say no while the migrant is still physically in France)
02:31:09 <shachaf> coppro: Once we drove to Canada and then flew outside the continent, but going through a US airport.
02:31:27 <shachaf> coppro: So we had to go through US customs, but in Canada, as part of leaving the US.
02:32:03 <coppro> ais523: the segregation also allows them to put weaker security checks on the non-US-bound flights because the US insists on "stronger" security
02:32:43 <ais523> coppro: the US insistence is relative? i.e. "travel to the US must be held to more stringent standards than your usual"?
02:32:59 <coppro> shachaf: no. It's still Canadian security agents.
02:33:06 <shachaf> ais523: Oh, that would be a great system.
02:33:09 <coppro> ais523: The US doesn't give a rat's ass about non-US flights.
02:33:29 <shachaf> "please spend 2/3 of the average resources on screening Canada-bound flights"
02:33:30 <ais523> coppro: unless they go near US airspace
02:33:32 <coppro> but I don't think it's relative, I think it's just that they want things like for a while they wanted shoes scanned, and the like
02:33:50 <ais523> I remember they were asking for US-level security checks on flights to/from Canada that went sufficiently close to US airspace
02:33:57 <shachaf> I no longer need to have my shoes scanned in US flights.
02:33:59 <ais523> presumably on the basis that the plane might be diverted, or something
02:34:15 <coppro> I know that they require copies of the passenger manifest for all flights that go over the US
02:34:38 <coppro> there was a kerfuffle because the Canadian government had to pass legislation to allow it
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03:36:22 <oren> We have all the green stars now
03:39:40 <coppro> I wasn't aware we were missing any
03:39:44 <coppro> now we can do the perfect run
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05:22:38 <zzo38> Now I made up a "Bad at Magic Items" flaw for Dungeons&Dragons game, although the name isn't very good probably I should change it. It is: http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/flaw/bad_at_magic_items
05:23:18 <zzo38> If you know how to play this game you can tell me if there is something wrong with it please.
05:24:30 <ais523> "skills" should be "skill checks", other than that it seems to work rules-wise, but it would be a really big drawback
05:24:37 <ais523> so most players would choose not to take it
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05:25:51 <zzo38> But I don't want to make it too minor either
05:27:44 <ais523> you're erring on the right side there, most flaws are apparently really broken
05:30:46 <zzo38> If you think it is too severe how to changed to make not too minor either though?
05:35:20 <ais523> hmm, the save penalty is probably the biggest effect there
05:35:24 <ais523> if you remove it it's probably too minor
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05:58:38 <zzo38> The name isn't very good either I think
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06:21:06 <hppavilion[1]> What kind of interesting features are there in CLIs?
06:21:59 <zzo38> I think it depend what kind of CLI?
06:26:42 <zzo38> Let's see if I can think of it
06:27:32 <zzo38> You can try, if you have some idea how to design it.
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06:33:06 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Think of any rare-but-useful shell features yet?
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10:03:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:ShortScript]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44044 * YourDeathIsComing * (+76) Created page with "If you have any suggestions for this language please feel free to post them."
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10:36:23 <Ox0dea> Is single-line Befunge-98 Turing-complete?
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10:49:20 <ais523> Ox0dea: almost certainly yes
10:49:31 <ais523> people have written "effectively Unefunge" Befunge in the past
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10:49:52 <ais523> and, well, Unefunge itself is considered TC I think and that's basically identical to one-line Befunge-98 except that y coordinates don't exist
10:50:08 <ais523> (e.g. the g/p commands can't be used to read/write off your line)
10:53:13 <Ox0dea> ais523: Hm, information on Unefunge appears to be quite scarce.
10:53:31 <ais523> Ox0dea: it's mentioned in the official docs for Befunge-98, but it's basically just a one-line mention
10:53:42 <ais523> that if you remove the y coordinate, newlines, and all commands that require two dimensions to exist
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10:54:24 <Ox0dea> Sure, but that it remains TC after being gutted so isn't immediately obvious.
10:54:57 <ais523> the only really hard part is loops, and you can use a flying IP for that
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11:17:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ziim]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44045&oldid=38420 * Timwi * (+28) Fix important mistake
11:17:48 <Ox0dea> The mistake itself was important?
11:18:24 <Ox0dea> The changelog message there?
11:18:27 <ais523> ugh, now I'm trying to translate 0x0dea into decimal in my head
11:18:52 <ais523> that rather ruins it, but fair enough
11:19:08 <oerjan> that was the point hth
11:19:11 <ais523> (strangely enough, I'm in the habit of using bash to translate hex into decimal)
11:20:00 <Ox0dea> Oh, never mind; `printf` is a thing.
11:20:53 <ais523> no printf required for hex→decimal (only to convert the other way round)
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12:17:48 <mroman> http://codepad.org/44Cqut5S <- suggestions.
12:17:58 <mroman> I'm trying to come up with an open source license that has privacy restrictions.
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12:20:25 <ais523> mroman: that can't be open source by definition (no restriction on fields of endeavour), although you can make it "like" open source
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12:50:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Malbrain]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44046&oldid=43731 * Paul2520 * (+168)
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13:02:16 <oerjan> yep, Agatha definitely has to go to that family party...
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14:53:01 <int-e> oh right, that TTS update schedule...
14:58:13 <oerjan> oh tuesday-thursday-saturday
14:58:44 <oerjan> int-e: yeah at this rate they should switch to that officially. except then they'll just slip another day.
15:01:38 <oerjan> beausoleil is a bit inscrutable, is he evil or _just_ arrogant
15:01:59 <oerjan> i suppose they make it ambiguous on purpose
15:03:19 <int-e> evil? opportunistic, perhaps, and used to being smarter than most people around him
15:04:28 <oerjan> well my question is whether he was behind any of the assassination attempts. although with the Family involved, he seems redundant.
15:05:05 <int-e> if he was, we'll probably find out
15:05:18 <oerjan> (does the family have any official name? they certainly don't all share a surname)
15:06:33 <oerjan> wait what, girl genius has a cast list?
15:08:53 <int-e> The Sturmvoraus family, I'd call them.
15:09:28 <int-e> And why is it that this is the first time I notice that this is german...
15:11:19 <int-e> let's see, shopping, laundry, lambdabot maintenance that I promised for last weekend... better get busy :)
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16:38:20 <ashl> `thanks things
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16:55:32 <fizzie> `` PERL_UNICODE=SDA thanks 谷風
16:56:22 <fizzie> `` sed -i -e 's/perl/perl -CSDA/' bin/thanks
16:56:52 <fizzie> Although the "algorithm" is still pretty latin-alphabet-only.
16:58:13 <fizzie> Spoilers: it's "if there's any character [aeiouy], replace anything before that by 'Th'; otherwise, replace the first character by 'T'."
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17:07:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Malbrain]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44047&oldid=44046 * Rdebath * (+266) :-)
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17:12:25 <ashl> `` cat bin/thanks
17:12:26 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -CSDA \ $_ = (join " ", @ARGV) || `words`; s/^\s+|\s+$//g; print "Thanks, $_. "; if (/[aeiouyAEIOUY]/) { s/^[^aeiouyAEIOUY]*/Th/; } else { s/^./T/; } print "$_.";
17:13:01 <ashl> perl: the mainstream esolang
17:13:57 <zzo38> Is it possible to program vim so that the delete key does not store deleted text in the register by default (but other commands to delete text in normal mode do store the text in the register)?
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17:15:27 <ashl> :noremap x "_x
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17:20:36 <zzo38> I would still want x and d to save the deleted text, and still want to allow delete key to be used with an explicit register, just to change the default if delete is used instead of d or x or some other command
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17:33:11 <zzo38> Trying :noremap <Del> "_<Del> does not seem to do anything?
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17:58:50 <oren> Using my Wii U, I can watch youtube on my CRT TV
17:59:44 <oren> isn't it comforting to have a raygun pointed at my face?
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18:28:04 <b_jonas> and a lot of homophones that come from initial consonant clusters that English people are lazy to pronounce: write–right–rite–wright, wrap–rap, wrest–rest, knight–night, knot–not.
18:29:14 <zzo38> O, OK yes I suppose I can see them too
18:29:23 <b_jonas> English is full of crazy homophones. there's verbs like sew–sow, raise–raze; mathematical functions sine–sign;
18:30:05 <zzo38> Yes, English is full if stupid stuff like that and others
18:30:42 <doesthiswork> some of those are due to the loss of velar fricatives
18:31:17 <b_jonas> doesthiswork: what? which one?
18:31:35 <doesthiswork> gh is how to voiced velar fricative used to be written
18:35:21 <doesthiswork> (the v is because I temporarily switched to an different keymap and forgot that control-v didn't mean paste)
18:35:27 <doesthiswork> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_velar_fricative
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18:55:28 <oren> what the hell is this? EFCDAB89 isn't representable as a UInt32???
18:59:03 <b_jonas> oh, look, the result of the ICFP contest is now announced!
19:00:33 <zzo38> I thought of a possibility that my "Bad at Magic Items" flaw, to change it so that in addition to attacks/saves/skills it also affects AC and SR, but only penalizes them in situations where magic is involved or to cancel out a magical bonus, and otherwise does not penalize them; and that if activating an item would do nothing anyways then you aren't stunned either. Does this seem to make it better?
19:01:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: um what? I don't understand that whole thing. what are you talking about?
19:01:11 <oren> first place: Team Eel?
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19:01:36 <zzo38> b_jonas: I mean this: http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/flaw/bad_at_magic_items
19:01:41 <int-e> eels are known for their electrical engineering prowess
19:01:45 <zzo38> (I think the name is also not very good and should be improved.)
19:01:59 <int-e> perhaps I should write the first word as EEls.
19:02:11 <oren> int-e: good point
19:02:55 <oren> So a bunch of Japanese Eels, using a lot of languages at once, won the contest.
19:03:40 <oren> We officially declare that C++, Java, C#, PHP, Ruby and Haskell are the programming tools of choice for discriminating hackers!
19:04:37 <zzo38> b_jonas: Do you understand this?
19:04:38 <oren> Ruby is okay ish, but Haskell and C# are the only ones on that list that are functional
19:05:00 <oren> C# is functional specifically if you're using LINQ
19:05:16 <zzo38> oren: I agree PHP isn't very good, nevertheless I have written a few programs in PHP (as well as in various others)
19:05:52 <oren> I have written entire 1000 line web applications in PHP. I still don't like it
19:06:20 <oren> It is easy to use, but... just ugly
19:06:26 <zzo38> Yes, I have written standalone programs in PHP too, still not as good as C and JavaScript and so on
19:06:27 <int-e> Javascript is kind of nice, as long as you don't try to interact with the browser ;)
19:06:36 <zzo38> int-e: Yes, I agree
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19:12:38 <zzo38> I think yesterday it was ais523 who comment about my "Bad at Magic Items" flaw. But I want to know how to make improved, if anyone else has idea too. I believe the name should be changed too, if you know how to make the better name of it
19:15:40 <oren> Aggressivly Mundane?
19:16:08 <int-e> . o O ( Were were you the last 3 rounds? -- Oh, I accidently stumbled into my bag of holding, took me ages to find the way back. )
19:16:33 <zzo38> OK, yes that is one idea of the name, thank you
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19:19:06 <b_jonas> zzo38: um, I don't know, I don't really know much about DnD style magic items in first place, so I can't really tell what this flaw is like
19:20:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: does this mean you can still fire expensive +5 arrows from your non-magical bow without a penalty?
19:20:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: and what does SR mean in first place?
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19:20:36 <zzo38> b_jonas: SR means spell resistance
19:21:23 <zzo38> Also, it does not mean you can fire expensive +5 arrows from your non-magical bow without a penalty; you take a -1 penalty. Although I suppose as worded it doesn't but I need to fix that!
19:21:31 <zzo38> Thank you for noticing that!
19:23:03 <b_jonas> So is this a flaw that a character would have if they're a barbarian or druid who doesn't rely much on items, but does martial arts bare-handed or with an ordinary quarterstick, or leads other people or animals to a fight?
19:24:16 <zzo38> Or if you use mundane items much more than magical
19:24:16 <b_jonas> Or could a sorcerer or psion take this reasonably, if they don't want to use permanent magic items, but instead manage all the magic themselves or at most use scrolls and potions?
19:24:46 <b_jonas> Does reading scrolls come with a use magic device check?
19:25:11 <b_jonas> Or does the “activate any magic item other than a spell completion item” cover a scroll or a magic potion?
19:25:21 <zzo38> Reading scrolls sometimes requires a use magic device check; it does if you could not otherwise figure out the spell
19:25:36 <zzo38> A scroll is a spell completion item. A potion is not; it does cover potions.
19:26:18 <zzo38> If you scribed the scroll yourself you could always figure it out though.
19:26:31 <zzo38> Scribing scrolls yourself is expensive though!
19:26:54 <b_jonas> but you don't scribe the scroll, that would need you using a magic item, namely a magic marker
19:27:11 <b_jonas> sure, it's also expensive, it requires xp and feats and stuff
19:27:32 <zzo38> Yes, it does require those things.
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19:35:23 <zzo38> Now many possible changes have been figure out; do you think it can be good enough with all of these changes?
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19:48:34 <zzo38> OK, I made many changes now (including the filename)
19:54:25 <izabera> http://imgur.com/gallery/TWY4LbE this
19:58:07 <zzo38> I have some idea that if you make PDF viewing program, to have default mode which mostly ignores the restrictions of operations, and also compliance mode which follow the restriction as specified in the file. Even in default mode though a lock icon is shown for operations that are marked as restricted, but they work anyways; for user-specified colors, the option now in addition to "When document does not specify" and "Always" is also "When document
20:00:28 <zzo38> Annotations and forms and so on would not be loaded by default if the document restricts these functions, but can still be used if the user explicitly selects them by menu or command-line.
20:01:50 <zzo38> Do you agree with these kind of thing?
20:02:09 <izabera> your message was cropped after 'in addition to "When document does not specify" and "Always" is also "When document'
20:02:35 <zzo38> for user-specified colors, the option now in addition to "When document does not specify" and "Always" is also "When document does not restrict"
20:03:27 <pikhq> zzo38: This sounds similar though not identical to the approach taken by mupdf.
20:03:52 <pikhq> mupdf intentionally omts several of those features because they're terrible. :)
20:05:12 <zzo38> I have seen information about another program which has an option to turn on/off whether these restrictions are applied, but I think my way would make it more useful, so that even if you want to print it anyways, you can still know if the author was trying to prevent you from printing it.
20:06:05 <pikhq> Oh, huh, mupdf did implement them. Optionally.
20:06:31 <pikhq> (note that mupdf is mostly a PDF *library* though; it ships with some utils, but they're pretty rough UI-wise)
20:06:59 <zzo38> Due to what is in the document it might require its own colors, that is why there should be three choice for such reason
20:09:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, and you should be able to switch the colors at run-time for just a document if you want
20:10:32 <b_jonas> just like how I normally set my browsers to use the fonts I choose only, but on oren's bitmap font demonstration page I temporarily want to allow his font
20:17:30 <fizzie> int dir = (i % 2 == 0 ? 1 : -1); for (int pol = dir > 0 ? 0 : 1; dir > 0 ? pol <= 1 : pol >= 0; pol += dir) ... in retrospect, coming back to this snippet after a year, I'm not quite sure this was the best way of expressing "iterate alternatingly 0,1 or 1,0".
20:18:12 <fizzie> Also I have absolutely no idea *why* it needs to do that.
20:20:54 <fizzie> ...oh, I start to vaguely remember. But that's horrible, and doubly so is not to put a comment here.
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20:31:40 <int-e> hmm, int pol = i % 2; for (int c = 0; c < 2; c++, pol ^= 1)...
20:32:15 <int-e> pol = i & 1 <-- would be more in line with the xor.
20:32:58 <fizzie> int-e: For the record, it was part of gearlanced.c, and it needs to alternate because executing a single match has the side effect of flipping the right program's polarity.
20:33:28 <myname> (dir, pol) = (1 - pol, 1 - dir)
20:34:16 <myname> haskell, with leading let also rust
20:34:27 <int-e> in haskell that will bottom out
20:35:04 <fizzie> Though by convention it would be written without the parentheses, I think.
20:35:25 <myname> iterate (\(x, y) -> (1-x, 1-y)) (1, 0)
20:35:34 <int-e> ml, but that also needs a let.
20:36:00 <int-e> cycle [(1,0),(0,1)]
20:36:25 <int-e> but the iterate could be more efficient if it fuses
20:37:56 <int-e> as far as I understand, the cycle *will* allocate a two-element cyclic list on the heap, at least with ghc; the compiler isn't smart enough to see the structur. with fusion, the iterate version can end up with x and y in registers, being negated in each iteration.
20:39:28 <fizzie> I just replaced it with int sieve = i % 2, kettle = !sieve; to get either 0,1 or 1,0; it used to be convoluted because it had to go in order as it was putchar'ing, but now it's writing to two separate arrays. (I'm making it a bit more easily extendable as preparation for being able to use the fancy don't-recompile hill stuff also for getting the visualization statistics. Trying to reach new ...
20:39:34 <fizzie> ... levels of premature optimization, here.)
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20:59:30 <int-e> (I'm not quite certain how to pronounce that)
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21:04:58 <zzo38> I cannot install a print server downstairs because a different router is used, but I had the other idea is the computer with the printer is the client instead, and then if it is turned on and enter the password it can download the PCL file from my computer and send it to the printer.
21:05:51 <zzo38> I wonder if it is possible to do this with FreeDOS so that it does not take too long to start up the computer.
21:07:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: um, how would FreeDOS help compared to a linux with most of the time-consuming stuff at boot disabled?
21:08:13 <b_jonas> I mean, in my experience, when I boot my PC, it takes 30 seconds to even get to the beginning of the boot loader, then between 30 and 40 seconds to boot up from that. But with a stripped down linux where you don't start much stuff, it would take only 10 seconds, so
21:08:16 <zzo38> I don't know much about how Linux is booting, but I know that FreeDOS boots very fast
21:08:30 <b_jonas> at that point it doesn't matter whether you make it 10 second or 5 second, because the 30 seconds before that is what takes most of the time.
21:08:39 <zzo38> Less than ten seconds even
21:08:42 <pikhq> Linux proper boots practically instantly; it's the distros that make it suck.
21:08:54 <b_jonas> Sure, I know DOS boots instantly, especially if you use that magical switch in the config.sys so it doesn't deliberately sleep for one second
21:09:06 <b_jonas> unless you're using a slow hard drive that is
21:09:36 <b_jonas> the magical switch is SWITCHES=/F by the way
21:09:56 <b_jonas> and it's a 2 second sleep, not one seconds
21:10:05 <b_jonas> that applies to MS-DOS, I don't know about FreeDOS
21:11:25 <zzo38> I have used FreeDOS so I have figured out how to speed it up.
21:14:02 <zzo38> On one computer I installed FreeDOS and a database program; the database program is ready before the CRT is ready if both are turned on at the same time.
21:15:14 <zzo38> This database program was designed to be used on a XT computer with floppy disks, but I had a much more modern computer and with a hard drive and FreeDOS, and past the year 2000, and yet it still works fine.
21:15:50 <zzo38> (The only problem I found is it would not let me to enter telephone numbers with a 778 area code, and I did not figure out how to fix that.)
21:17:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: is it running natively, or emulated under some other operating system?
21:17:12 <b_jonas> I no longer run DOS natively
21:17:20 <b_jonas> I run it emulated for games and similar
21:17:33 <zzo38> That computer ran DOS natively. I do not know if it is still in use since I do not work there anymore.
21:17:44 <b_jonas> I did run it natively for quite a long time though
21:18:50 <zzo38> Now I run Linux on my own computer so I use an emulator to run various DOS games such as ZZT and Jazz Rabbit and so on.
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21:41:30 <int-e> nice quote, "It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code." (found on haskell-cafe)
21:41:48 <int-e> (attributed to Bill Harlan)
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21:53:44 <hppavilion[1]> The maximum number for a 2 byte instruction name is FEFE (in hex), right?
21:57:17 <oren> that would be 65536 possibilities
21:59:15 <oren> Where can I find test data for SHA
21:59:26 <int-e> (that's 341664 in base 7, if my calculation is correct)
21:59:47 <hppavilion[1]> I'll just hope it's right and add the rest manually if not
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22:04:29 <hppavilion[1]> An instruction keeps consuming arguments until it meets an END instruction (which would be 0000, probably)
22:05:33 <myname> so, how do you multiply by 0?
22:06:44 * hppavilion[1] patents that idea and makes a million billion dollars (long system, of course)
22:18:51 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: lucky you :)
22:18:53 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: i do this.
22:18:54 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: i was fnord before. when do _you_ use assigment? does doing so make you feel like drawing something. requests/ ideas anyone?
22:19:52 <hppavilion[1]> As fungot trancends our primitive ideas of gender and actual existence
22:19:52 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: the worst one was in the ' artic circle'. you just get numbers. you can have a proof like that
22:20:27 <shachaf> Where are the quotes fungotten?
22:20:28 <myname> based on different styles
22:20:28 <fungot> shachaf: he appears to be completely missing.
22:21:40 <myname> well, naive idea would be goto
22:23:18 <hppavilion[1]> CALL a b c d would probably call a then b then c then d
22:27:14 <myname> well, it depends on your overall idea
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22:27:27 <myname> something like what,c does
22:27:58 <myname> i.e. having a call that returns different values depending on the thread you are in
22:29:39 <myname> you are talking about something existing?
22:30:25 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Every input has a value of itself-1 <-- then there will be a possible large argument value missing instead hth
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22:34:20 <hppavilion[1]> if argc == 1, zero reg args[0] to 0. Else, set reg args[0] to args[1], reg args[0]+1 to args[2], etc. for length of arguments.
22:38:41 <hppavilion[1]> It's bugging me 'cause it'll mess up printing of the chr(0xFF) character
22:40:51 <hppavilion[1]> Then to multiply by 0 you do <multins> <firstnum> FF 00 00
22:41:25 <hppavilion[1]> I'm just bouncing ideas off of people and need to alert them to respond xD
22:42:01 <oerjan> <int-e> . o O ( Were were you the last 3 rounds? -- Oh, I accidently stumbled into my bag of holding, took me ages to find the way back. ) <-- istr living things cannot survive in bags of holding
22:42:55 <oerjan> well C has similar problems printing \0's...
22:43:07 <hppavilion[1]> Of course, escape chars are /pretty/ complex for an ISA
22:45:19 <hppavilion[1]> So oerjan, what's a better idea: Escape chars or varlength args?
22:45:48 <oerjan> varlength seems less evil
23:01:01 <oerjan> not if you can fake one...
23:08:45 <hppavilion[1]> Should I provide builtin floating point operations?
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23:13:48 <shachaf> so much vertical space tdnh
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23:17:21 <oerjan> PROVIDE ALL THE THINGS
23:18:40 <oerjan> hm is ordinary sin/cos/tan elliptic or parabolic
23:18:51 <oerjan> and whichever it is, what's the third kind
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23:20:13 <hppavilion[1]> And despite my limited knowledge, based on some snazzy diagrams I've seen on wikipedia, I would think it's elliptic given the circle shown
23:20:28 <oerjan> STOP MISUNDERSTANDING ME
23:20:45 <oerjan> i may not be making sense, but that is NO excuse
23:21:03 <oerjan> hyperbolic was the first one, which you mentioned
23:25:13 <hppavilion[1]> I've got the registral, Arithmetical, Trigonometric, and Hyperbolic/Trigonometric
23:33:11 <oren> heyppavilion can you try to keep each sentenc on one line please twh?
23:34:40 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1] -----###
23:35:04 <oerjan> of course not, with a swatter
23:35:07 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6' by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
23:35:43 <hppavilion[1]> I currently have 1E instructions (which I don't want to dehex)
23:37:58 <shachaf> please optimize your use of irc vertical space
23:38:17 <hppavilion[1]> https://github.com/hppavilion1/IndeterminantVM/blob/master/setdocs.txt
23:39:30 <hppavilion[1]> I probably should've put off the trigonometric functions until later
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23:42:05 <oerjan> it's like a comedy show at this point
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