←2016-01-05 2016-01-06 2016-01-07→ ↑2016 ↑all
00:00:11 <ais523> fizzie: in what language? allegedly English?
00:00:31 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, but only very approximately.
00:00:55 <oerjan> `words --help
00:00:58 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
00:01:02 <ais523> now I wonder what words approximate English has
00:01:05 <ais523> typos, perhaps?
00:01:08 <oerjan> `words -l
00:01:11 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
00:01:22 <ais523> `words --eng-all
00:01:30 <shachaf> Is that the same as the approximate words that English has?
00:01:33 <oerjan> that uses the WordData, i take
00:01:38 <ais523> yes
00:01:44 <ais523> which is heavily ngrammed IIRC
00:01:48 <ais523> `` words --eng-all 10
00:01:53 <shachaf> `words --hebrew 10
00:01:54 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
00:01:56 <shachaf> oops
00:01:59 <shachaf> `` words --hebrew 10
00:02:05 <HackEgo> shal
00:02:07 <fizzie> It works with a single ` (when it works).
00:02:14 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
00:02:22 <ais523> `echo test
00:02:25 <HackEgo> ​המיי והסגר אונטו להטעמ סטפל ונתי בתוקפס אופמל שהורמציא שקפת
00:02:25 <HackEgo> ​ומא הנבי ותו והלו קיבלת בגרמו התשוב ולתפ מדכתבואנט ארשתי
00:02:26 <fizzie> The script does its own argument splitting if it only gets a single argument that contains spaces, or some-such.
00:02:27 <HackEgo> test
00:02:29 <HackEgo> med hmmerial prae marit patro ress beau dez oxb olsen
00:02:36 <fizzie> Just being laggery, apparently.
00:02:45 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined.
00:02:59 <ais523> now I'm wondering what happens if you put hackego `words output into an online translator
00:03:04 <Taneb> That's an interesting interleaving
00:03:04 <ais523> `words --german 20
00:03:06 <HackEgo> bilisen hocherksto joyaisorgangift beiten abwehrbund alitätenpaß leben perichenfandar gestwärtne verabzügen torischwing schlagenwein pferia hufernzugenerandel metrat mannen fache maeclaviaturbeisener nidiposumker hilfe
00:03:17 <ais523> at least one of those is a real word
00:03:21 <fizzie> "German - detected".
00:03:28 <shachaf> `words --hebrew 20
00:03:30 <HackEgo> ​יאמצני ונתגדו וקל מטפו ונכר ועבד קסיסמא וביז שחששו ותח וישאל בכונת שהקולין ההזיולם טוטיפותר ומספי במלח והמפו כשנמר הזדים
00:03:54 <ais523> most were left alone
00:03:58 <ais523> some were capitalized in various ways
00:04:06 <ais523> e.g. beiten → BEITEN
00:04:23 <fizzie> It also translated abwehrbund to "defense bund", leben to "live", schlagenwein to "beat wine", fache to "times" and hilfe to "Help".
00:04:24 <ais523> "abwehrbund" translates to "defense bund", apparently
00:05:05 <ais523> the translations of leben and hilfe are actually correct, apart from possibly capitalization
00:05:11 <oerjan> leben and hilfe are correct, anyway
00:05:12 <ais523> `words --french 20
00:05:15 <HackEgo> ​étaire kovt lix lacic lirmat locailr hocquité fuvre plicoppe cba ems sylloukhostrie brabort fandres réinsurs litères eduimamiti deredaireronné koiserlartine befulat
00:05:24 <shachaf> Ewige Blumenwein Und Ewige Schlangenwein
00:05:51 <oerjan> shachaf: schlagen, not schlangen hth
00:06:00 <ais523> wow, only one change on the French (litères → Literes)
00:06:00 <oerjan> pretty sure that's different
00:06:13 <shachaf> oerjan: schangenkraft, not schagenkraft hth
00:06:15 <shachaf> oops
00:06:19 <shachaf> i messed that up
00:06:23 <shachaf> schlangenkraft
00:06:42 <ais523> `words --italian 20
00:06:43 <HackEgo> sballere inendo carla predierò curerò procura all'offuma attimbre redeno fruschi spell'augura rapandosi sonacano faccendi abbagliente appandoccusa trasbottammo marrete consavamo riatenere
00:06:47 <shachaf> snake wine is the fancy version of snake oil
00:07:00 <oerjan> shachaf: oh i assumed you were starting from the schlagenwein
00:07:14 <shachaf> i was combining schagenwein and schlangenkraft
00:07:18 <shachaf> look
00:07:25 <shachaf> why'd you have to make me go and type it out like that
00:07:28 <fizzie> The headlines of the biggest Finnish newspaper today mentioned how Google Translate was translating "Російська Федерація" (Russian Federation) in Ukranian → Russian mode to Мордор (Mordor).
00:07:31 <ais523> we have some words there, "curerò procura" becomes "heal attorney"
00:07:34 <fizzie> The perils of machine learning.
00:07:51 <shachaf> snake wine salesmen tend to be snobs
00:07:52 <ais523> fizzie: intentional Googlebomb? or some sort of crazy accident?
00:08:13 <ais523> (also, is the input being given there spelled in Russian or in Ukranian?)
00:08:29 <fizzie> I think it's in Ukranian, but I'm certainly no expert.
00:08:30 <ais523> shachaf: is snake wine fermented snake oil?
00:08:38 <shachaf> Perhaps.
00:08:58 <shachaf> fizzie: did you know the meaning of "sgtm" a year ago
00:09:00 <fizzie> I think our official comment is that it's just an accident, and not really all that crazy either.
00:09:29 <oerjan> the russian is Российская Федерация
00:09:42 <fizzie> shachaf: I think so, but I'm not 100% sure. Certainly it feels now as if I'd always known it.
00:09:54 <oerjan> russian no longer uses і
00:10:16 <shachaf> I used it in another channel and someone deduced my employment history from it.
00:10:32 <shachaf> And I looked in my email history and apparently I never used it before 2013.
00:10:37 <ais523> shachaf: I don't know what it stands for, altough I'm guessing "sounds/seems good to me"
00:10:42 <ais523> from reverse etymology
00:10:43 <shachaf> But now I think it was always common.
00:10:53 <shachaf> So who knows.
00:11:06 <ais523> at Agora, very occasionally, people will write a message entirely as an acronym, and sometimes people figure out what it was meant to be
00:11:08 <shachaf> ais523: Yes.
00:11:17 <shachaf> ais523: That's also true in this channel.
00:11:25 <shachaf> <oerjan> ityarfo
00:11:25 <fizzie> shachaf: Today was my first Googleversary.
00:11:28 <shachaf> <oerjan> sptm
00:11:30 <ais523> well this channel and Agora have quite an overlap
00:11:43 <shachaf> fizzie: did you get balloons?
00:11:47 <ais523> theory: "scow" is actually an acronym but nobody knows what it stands for
00:11:57 <fizzie> Just ones in an email.
00:11:57 <shachaf> I know the etymology of "scow".
00:12:12 <shachaf> You didn't get who balloons?
00:12:25 <shachaf> Or teams balloons or whatever that thing is called.
00:13:06 <shachaf> Maybe you also got ASUs or something.
00:13:37 <fizzie> I don't think I looked at my Teams page.
00:13:51 <fizzie> If that's where something should've been.
00:14:00 <shachaf> @time fizzie
00:14:01 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Wed Jan 6 00:14:00 2016
00:14:06 <shachaf> TOO LATE
00:14:07 <oerjan> <ais523> we have some words there, "curerò procura" becomes "heal attorney" <-- google messes up the grammar, that should be "i will heal". although it might be ungrammatical without an article... izabera?
00:14:35 <ais523> oerjan: so it's "I will heal the attorney" except that "attorney" is a subject rather than an object?
00:14:55 -!- mauris has joined.
00:15:21 <Taneb> I, an attorney, will heal?
00:16:04 <boily> I'll attorney your wounds.
00:17:51 <Taneb> I was trying to learn Italian but sort of took a break due to exams
00:18:03 <Taneb> Why do I have 5 exams in 4 days? :(
00:18:28 <oerjan> ais523: italian doesn't have noun cases, but i think there should be a "la" in there. except now i check, procura seems to refer to power, not actual persons
00:18:59 <ais523> Taneb: because nowadays exams aren't scheduled for student convenience but for administrator convenience
00:19:13 <shachaf> Taneb: you're being pigeonholed as a student hth
00:19:13 <ais523> I actually noticed a notable decline in timetable quality during my time at school
00:19:18 <ais523> as timetables became more automated
00:19:38 <ais523> shachaf: if you're taking exams, doesn't that kind-of make you a student by definition? I guess you could be an applicant
00:19:53 <fizzie> shachaf: I know Chromium folks also use "sgtm" a lot, so you definitely don't need to be a Google employee to be infected.
00:19:54 <ais523> but most of the time, the purpose of exams is to gauge how much someone has learned, which implies that someone has been teaching them
00:19:58 <fizzie> https://www.chromium.org/glossary
00:19:59 <Taneb> shachaf, I am afraid that I must confess to being a student
00:20:23 <oerjan> sgml sgtm
00:20:24 <shachaf> fizzie: Did you know about https://cs.chromium.org/ ?
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00:20:46 <shachaf> ais523: It could be an exam for a professional certification or something.
00:21:15 <ais523> shachaf: that's why I included "applicant" as the other possibility
00:21:22 <fizzie> shachaf: Yes.
00:21:27 <shachaf> ais523: Oh, I guess so.
00:21:40 <shachaf> fizzie: It's TG. CS is one of the best things.
00:23:01 <fizzie> shachaf: The Chromium one is lacking in layers.
00:23:27 <fizzie> Though the git views are okay.
00:27:51 <shachaf> fizzie: That page has a much better expansion of SGTM than the one I knew.
00:29:05 <fizzie> I didn't know Grok had been kind of open-sourced as "Kythe".
00:29:16 <boily> `? kythe
00:29:17 <HackEgo> kythe? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:29:52 <shachaf> boily: I didn't either.
00:30:45 <Taneb> I don't know what that is
00:30:59 <shachaf> it means "drink" hth
00:31:32 <boily> tdnrh, bigwi.
00:32:31 <shachaf> bigwi?
00:32:52 <boily> But I'll Go With It.
00:38:35 <boily> zzo38: hezzo38. today I had a relapse, and I magicked with my coworkers.
00:38:54 <Taneb> I haven't magicked in a while
00:39:01 <Taneb> I avoid it by not owning any cards
00:39:03 <boily> (magiced? magicqued? maybe even a strong verb, and magunk?)
00:39:06 <Taneb> Or spending any money on it
00:39:23 <shachaf> Taneb: "jammed" hth
00:39:37 <boily> my bro gave me a nice one for Christmas/Birthday. my færies deck is even more annoying :D
00:40:17 <shachaf> Taneb: when are you visiting california to collect a bunch of cards twh
00:40:28 <ais523> I haven't magicked in ages, although I try to stay up to date with it constantly
00:40:39 <Taneb> shachaf, who knows (tm)
00:40:45 <shachaf> I neither play nor stay up to date.
00:40:52 <ais523> this is mostly because Wizards' design goals are sort-of the opposite of those needed to create a good game
00:41:14 <ais523> (basically they try to rewrite the whole thing every six months)
00:41:15 <shachaf> You mean the design goal of making a lot of money forever?
00:41:20 <boily> I wonder if I can get my hands on a copy of Ashes. the atwork looks nice.
00:41:32 <shachaf> boily: Someone tried to play that with me.
00:41:36 <ais523> shachaf: well they state it as, they want to keep the game fresh, so they shake it up repeatedly
00:41:38 <shachaf> But I complained a bunch and they got annoyed.
00:41:56 <ais523> this is basically because it gets stale very quickly because they're iterating so fast that they don't have time to make a deep game
00:42:44 <tswett> Is that how it works, now?
00:43:20 <ais523> tswett: they even got rid of the core set, apparently because they couldn't work out who it was for
00:43:30 <ais523> (answer: it was for people who wanted a well-tested and balanced game)
00:43:37 <boily> huh? like, 2k15 is the last core?
00:43:45 <tswett> boily: Origins is.
00:43:46 <ais523> boily: last core set is called "Magic Origins"
00:44:02 <boily> thwett, this523.
00:44:02 <ais523> they changed their naming scheme for it for some reason
00:44:08 <boily> nonsense.
00:44:30 <ais523> but the core sets haven't really been proper core sets for a while, because they've also been included in the philosophy of shaking things up
00:44:42 <ais523> as opposed to trying to incrementally improve what they had
00:44:58 <boily> I like formats like Tiny Leaders. you have to think hard to build something worthwile and play it well.
00:45:02 <ais523> hmm, I think this is why people like Legacy
00:45:10 <ais523> boily: Tiny Leaders was solved IIRC, or mostly solved
00:45:30 <ais523> being basically Legacy but much more restricted, thus easier to work out the optimal play
00:45:50 <tswett> I'm not familiar with Tiny Leaders.
00:46:13 <boily> tswett: it's Commander, but 50 card deck, and everything must have a CMC <=3.
00:46:53 <boily> you start with 25 hp, no rules about your commander doing a specific amount of damage, and it costs 2 colourless more each time you want to recast your commander.
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00:49:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46087&oldid=46079 * Albedo * (+34) /* Bitwise operations */ pipe and ! rendering
00:49:41 <tswett> I wonder what the most expensive Modern common cards are.
00:50:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46088&oldid=46087 * Albedo * (+1) /* Global stack (gstack) instructions */
00:51:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46089&oldid=46088 * Albedo * (+17) /* Global stack (gstack) instructions */
00:52:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46090&oldid=46089 * Albedo * (+51) /* Arithmetic operations */
00:52:28 <tswett> Looks like that'd be Serum Visions.
00:53:24 <ais523> the joke is, serum visions isn't even a good card
00:53:27 <ais523> just all the better ones got banned
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01:19:44 <boily> `wisdom
01:19:46 <HackEgo> indonesia/Indonesia is a large island country in Asia and the world's most populous muslim country. Its major export is rayon textile from the Indonesian fnord.
01:20:19 <boily> something went wrong somewhere in that, but I can't pinpoint it.
01:22:30 <Phantom___Hoover> `? fnord
01:22:31 <HackEgo> ​? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:25:01 <zgrep> `ls
01:25:03 <HackEgo> ​:-( \ (* \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ butwhatifichangesomething \ canary \ cat \ close \ *) \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dict-words \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ loudly é \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
01:25:13 <zgrep> `cat
01:25:20 <zgrep> `cat cat
01:25:24 <HackEgo> Meow~~ >^.^<
01:25:29 <zgrep> :D
01:25:44 <HackEgo> No output.
01:27:29 <zgrep> `` cat cat
01:27:30 <HackEgo> Meow~~ >^.^<
01:35:17 <\oren\> ``words --gaelic
01:35:18 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `words: not found
01:35:24 <\oren\> `words --gaelic
01:35:26 <HackEgo> ghuil
01:35:30 <\oren\> `words --gaelic 10
01:35:31 <HackEgo> sgàlla diseaglaide ghòrr teach bhuile miosrat teasadh laid h-inn craoirb
01:35:40 <\oren\> h-inn?
01:37:18 <\oren\> `` words --russian
01:37:21 <HackEgo> ​электади
01:37:24 <\oren\> `` words --russian 10
01:37:27 <HackEgo> ​асновомъ сстверяйте тькиепраштейские сакокладыге подвор полописы бабачившего ходингв прикоа хабастаю
01:39:36 <boily> as egregious Russian consonant clusters are, I highly doubt there are any words that begin with sstv.
01:39:55 <boily> `` words --french 10
01:39:57 <HackEgo> wilit oaso impiusquerenceaux château touesourvi accompli hunt chémont ngit korfage
01:40:20 <\oren\> bhelloily
01:40:24 <boily> château et accompli are legit.
01:40:28 <boily> he\\oren\.
01:40:46 <boily> `` words --french 10
01:40:48 <HackEgo> deki ductionn boursed rhumin aueniaisitabi cableite ble orons fsgt récieriazzo
01:41:03 <\oren\> fsgt?
01:41:23 <\oren\> ble is bleh
01:41:28 <oerjan> `words --norwegian 10
01:41:29 <HackEgo> sparakvaltningen forskningsavgivninjune høgsklæringer udekstrinensjefene førinstingen øybaroleteneseriaste bombyråene floakk formedisjonsbeslut snøbråsilkene
01:42:02 <coppro> hmm I should write that intercal library I wanted to write
01:42:21 <ais523> coppro: make sure you avoid number clashes :-)
01:42:23 <\oren\> floakk!
01:42:45 <ais523> there are still a few groups of 1000 left but I advise you to stick to a group of 100 if you can, it'll save space
01:42:46 <coppro> ais523: no you see
01:42:47 <\oren\> `` words --dutch 10
01:42:48 <HackEgo> Unknown option: dutch
01:42:57 <oerjan> . o O ( bombyråene sounds like something that is just a political mistake away from existing )
01:43:43 <\oren\> floakk sounds to be like a new, inventive swearword
01:43:58 * ais523 waits for the rest of coppro's sentence
01:44:04 <boily> a floakk is an edible pastry.
01:44:05 <oerjan> floakk obviously is a new and upcoming word describing all the overflowing sewers global warming will bring
01:44:14 <coppro> ais523: the goal is to operand overload .4 to return a random number
01:44:28 <ais523> haha
01:44:33 <ais523> you still need some line numbers for that though :-)
01:44:44 <ais523> what's .4 normally used for?
01:44:46 <oerjan> boily: i think you would be hard-pressed to get norwegians to eat something rhyming with kloakk hth
01:44:57 <coppro> ais523: probably as a general-purpose register
01:45:06 <ais523> no, it's one of the argument registers
01:45:12 <ais523> used by stdlib
01:45:18 <ais523> but they tend to be used in fairly consistent ways
01:45:27 <boily> oerjan: I think I can translate that without the help of any machine. bletch!
01:45:28 <coppro> err no wait
01:45:30 <ais523> for full xkcdness I guess you should overload #4
01:45:32 <coppro> not .4, #4
01:45:36 <coppro> yeah
01:45:41 <boily> `? fternooner
01:45:43 <HackEgo> fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
01:45:51 <ais523> so now what I'm wondering is whether you can put a CREATEd operator into an operand overload
01:46:04 <ais523> strikes me as the only way to get nondeterministic overloads
01:46:26 <ais523> my guess is no, although perhaps there's some way to make it work?
01:46:34 <ais523> I need to redo that code anyway to work violin into it
01:46:49 <ais523> oh, there's no reason it wouldn't work for a forward use
01:46:55 <ais523> but what about a reverse assignment?
01:47:04 <coppro> what about quantumly overloading it?
01:47:32 <ais523> that's a CLC-INTERCAL thing which is more like multithreading than anything else
01:47:39 <ais523> `! c-intercal DO READ OUT #4 DO GIVE UP
01:47:40 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/c-intercal: not found
01:47:44 <ais523> `! cintercal DO READ OUT #4 DO GIVE UP
01:47:51 <HackEgo> ​ \ IV
01:48:31 <ais523> `! cintercal DO .1 <- .1/#4 DO .1 <- #5 DO READ OUT #4 PLEASE GIVE UP
01:48:45 <ais523> oh it doesn't run with -v by default
01:48:50 <ais523> need to try this locally
01:49:23 <oerjan> boily: i thought so too
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01:53:00 <boily> `? tea
01:53:01 <HackEgo> tea? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:53:08 <boily> `? fentimans
01:53:09 <HackEgo> fentimans is a delicious beverage out from Hexham, that can be paired with a fresh fternooner for a nutritive midday snack.
02:02:09 <Phantom___Hoover> `?fternooner
02:02:11 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?fternooner: not found
02:02:16 <Phantom___Hoover> `? fternooner
02:02:19 <HackEgo> fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
02:03:02 <zgrep> `? nutritive
02:03:05 <HackEgo> nutritive? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
02:03:30 <zgrep> `? Hexham
02:03:34 <HackEgo> Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico
02:03:44 <zgrep> `? beverage
02:03:47 <HackEgo> beverage? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
02:03:56 <zgrep> `? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
02:03:58 <HackEgo> ​¯\(°​_o)/¯ is a misspelling of ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:04:02 <zgrep> :D
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02:30:21 <oerjan> zgrep: they're not actually identical, although your client may accidentally convert between them when pasting
02:33:51 <oerjan> alas, with myndzi gone the reasons may no longer be obvious.
02:34:44 <FireFly> is it a combining overline vs. non-combining difference?
02:34:52 <FireFly> or some such
02:35:10 <FireFly> or some nonprintable within it maybe
02:35:24 <oerjan> the nonprintable
02:35:52 <FireFly> `` \? hutenosa | unidecode
02:35:54 <HackEgo> No output.
02:36:33 <FireFly> probably would've been too long output either way
02:36:49 <oerjan> `? hutenosa
02:36:50 <HackEgo> hutenosa? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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02:37:25 <oerjan> oh. unidecode doesn't pipe.
02:37:42 <vanila> \o/
02:37:43 <FireFly> oh
02:37:44 <vanila> give my myzinda
02:37:46 <vanila> please
02:37:50 <vanila> \o/
02:37:52 <vanila> \o/
02:37:55 <oerjan> vanila: SORRY
02:37:56 <vanila> whyyy
02:38:01 <vanila> crying face
02:38:03 <FireFly> `` \? z | xargs unidecode
02:38:13 <vanila> \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/
02:38:15 <vanila> myzindi
02:38:17 <FireFly> mm, ZWSP
02:38:28 <FireFly> alas there is no myndzi
02:38:30 <oerjan> i don't think you need xargs.
02:38:33 <vanila> why not
02:38:36 <vanila> what happens ;
02:38:47 <FireFly> vanila: we get signal
02:39:26 <vanila> someobedy set up us the bong
02:39:28 <vanila> lol
02:39:30 <FireFly> oerjan: hm, I have a habit of doing foo | xargs bar instead of bar "$(foo)" for some reason
02:39:47 <oerjan> ah
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02:42:08 <vanila> btw you all probably heard about this but someone did brainfu8ck in printf!
02:42:14 <vanila> i was pretty impressed
02:42:18 <vanila> the %n thing is ridiculous
02:42:38 <vanila> i knew it could be used to start off code exec
02:42:50 <vanila> but this guy did all the computation in a format string
02:44:02 <ais523> vanila: I heard people reference it but didn't see the original
02:44:04 <ais523> link?
02:44:51 <vanila> sure
02:45:16 <ais523> ?
02:45:19 <vanila> https://github.com/HexHive/printbf
02:45:23 <ais523> thanks
02:45:24 <vanila> i have to find it that takes finite time
02:45:40 <ais523> right, just "sure" is a weird way to express that so I was a little confused
02:45:55 <ais523> I thought it might be that you were looking for the link but wasn't sure
02:46:00 <vanila> but yeah i love these "found" computers
02:46:20 <vanila> ROP is my favorite because it's like moss growing in the cracks of a wall
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02:47:58 <ais523> vanila: I was messing about with them even before I'd heard of esolangs
02:48:06 <ais523> called it "alternate programming"
02:48:10 <vanila> thats so cool :D
02:48:18 <ais523> but most of the things I looked at were very sub-TC
02:48:22 <vanila> i don't know if i was befoer i heard about esolangs
02:48:25 <ais523> like MS Paint
02:48:29 <vanila> subTC is really interesting
02:48:54 <ais523> (although now I'm wondering, what if you run it in monochrome mode so that the fill tool does patterns? still subTC but might be more powerful)
02:49:05 <vanila> haha
02:49:06 <vanila> nice
02:49:17 <vanila> probably some modular arithmetic stuff becomes possible with paterns
02:50:30 <zgrep> oerjan: I believe it might.
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02:52:04 <zgrep> Hah, they're not identical! :D
02:52:25 <zgrep> `? ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:52:26 <HackEgo> ​¯\(°_o)/¯ `? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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02:53:06 <vanila> ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:54:17 <zgrep> `? ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:54:18 <HackEgo> ​¯\(°_o)/¯ `? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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02:54:49 <zgrep> oerjan: No, my client does not do that. HackEgo was using ¯\(°​_o)/¯ and I copied that.
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03:00:31 <oerjan> zgrep: oh hm right. i was misremembering which way the wisdom goes.
03:03:44 <mauris__> today i had the sudden realization that "myndzi" is probably pronounced as/derived from "mind's eye"
03:04:22 <mauris__> (i'd been mentally pronouncing it as min-dzee AND I WON'T STOP)
03:05:59 <shachaf> ==mauris__
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03:12:58 <ais523> hmm, that construction relies on printf reading the format string lazily
03:13:08 <ais523> admittedly, most printfs will, there's no reason to scan it in advance
03:13:21 <ais523> other than to prevent specifically that exploit
03:15:09 <ais523> I also suspect it's sub-TC due to stack underflow
03:15:40 <ais523> eventually printf will be reading arguments from stack locations that are before the start of the stack, and even if you have arbitrary control over memory, you still can't write to an unmapped address
03:21:11 <ais523> "nginx rewrote their own version of printf() and removed “ %n ”"
03:21:22 <ais523> haha, that's one way to avoid format string vulnerabilities :-)
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03:29:47 <zzo38> The SQL function "PRINTF" in SQLite also disables "%n"
03:32:06 <zzo38> (The internal code still implements it, it just disables it when the list of arguments is a list of dynamically-typed SQL values)
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05:28:15 <hppavilion[2]> I think I'll create an Esolangs community on Google+
05:28:19 <hppavilion[2]> In fact, I already did xD
05:28:37 <hppavilion[2]> I just published a short article/advertisement of the community on the Programming G+ community
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05:58:56 <zzo38> Do you have other ideas to make custom Magic: the Gathering cards or puzzle or variant rule or whatever else?
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06:22:16 <hppavilion[2]> Yay! Someon reshared my post on Brainfuck!
06:23:13 <ais523> zzo38: one I have made: cost {G}, instant, effect "Look at the top three cards of your library. You may put a land card from among them onto the battlefield. Place the rest on top of your library in any order."
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06:28:50 <zzo38> ais523: OK thanks, what did you call it and do you think it is reasonable?
06:29:13 <ais523> I haven't called it anything yet, and I think it's reasonable: the aim was to create a green cantrip-like spell to compete with the blue ones in Legacy
06:29:20 <zzo38> OK
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06:30:57 <zzo38> Did you make the database or card list file or whatever? Or even posted this idea anywhere else than right here right now?
06:31:55 <zzo38> Also, how can I do in Linux, I want to use the mail system but treat local mail differently from mail received remotely, and also to use a different SMTP server for sending than for receiving messages. For example I do not want the email address to contain local usernames, but if a local user types something like "mail user1" then it is a local username.
06:32:20 <haavard> Make something stronger than Serum Visions but weaker than Ponder and have Wizards pick it up
06:32:24 <haavard> Need something modern legal ;)
06:32:25 <ais523> zzo38: I haven't posted most of my ideas online, that was the first time I posted one I think
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06:32:40 <ais523> haavard: preordain is such a card, but it's also banned in modern
06:32:49 <ais523> there's opt but it's even weaker than serum visions I think
06:35:07 <zzo38> One idea I had is "You may force target player to draw three cards" (a variant of Jace's Ingenuity, except that you can force other players to draw cards too, like Ancestral Recall but costs more and is abortable)
06:35:51 <ais523> zzo38: that's worded "you may have target player draw three cards" I think
06:36:10 <ais523> but the situations in which you'd abort such a spell are very rare
06:36:20 <ais523> so I doubt Wizards would print it because it'd mean extra clicks in Magic Online
06:40:40 <zzo38> I don't expect Wizards of the Coast to really print any of my stuff; it is mainly for use in custom games
06:50:56 <zzo38> Ancestral Recall was originally designed to allow you to force opponent to draw cards as well as you (although it can now be used on teammates too; when it was designed there was no team game). Many cards only work on you and I don't like it much
06:53:34 <zzo38> I do now have the service to post the comments of my custom cards on the webpage, by use of web browser or curl. However, these custom cards are also available as plain text and SQLite database (the SQLite database includes the user comments too).
06:53:36 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, that's a nice card. if it was a sorcery rather than an instant, then it looks plausibly printable.
06:54:25 <ais523> zzo38: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/pointcounterpoint-targeted-card-draw-2012-03-23 http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/pointcounterpoint-targeted-card-draw-2012-03-28
06:54:26 <zzo38> Why don't you write comment on my card yet? We should put it there in the place so that also other people even if on different IRC or not at all can also to read/write comment same including to reply
06:54:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: there are some blue cards that can have anyone draw cards, but they aren't optional (as in "may") usually, and they're rare because it's not worth the extra text over just "Draw three cards."
06:54:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: do you want an instant or a sorcery?
06:54:43 <b_jonas> for card draw, instant sometimes has extra cost
06:54:53 <ais523> zzo38: those are articles by R&D arguing the case for and against card draw spells having targets, respectively
06:55:04 <zzo38> The card I described is an instant, and has the same cost as Jace's Ingenuity, it is what I designed it as.
06:56:14 <zzo38> Look it the file to see
06:57:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: there's Inspiration; Deep Analysis; Opportunity each of them lets you choose any player
07:03:16 <zzo38> Please look my card (there are some new ones) and write comment too
07:08:35 <hppavilion[1]> How about a language that is ENTIRELY monads
07:08:56 <hppavilion[1]> Not like haskell, which is AFAICT functions with a side of monads (used for side effects)
07:09:03 <hppavilion[1]> Just pure, monady goodness
07:09:09 <hppavilion[1]> Note: I don't actually understand monads
07:10:37 <oerjan> functions are a monad too hth
07:10:48 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh right
07:10:59 <hppavilion[1]> Shit
07:11:07 <hppavilion[1]> xD
07:11:36 <oerjan> also, a lot of the other monads are wrappers over functions
07:11:47 <oerjan> @unmtl State s a
07:11:47 <lambdabot> s -> (a, s)
07:13:35 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Exactly. The idea was to restrict monads.
07:14:13 <ais523> @help unmtl
07:14:13 <lambdabot> unroll mtl monads
07:14:50 <ais523> oerjan: it's not so much a wrapper, as identifying functions that happen to have a monadic form, isn't it?
07:15:37 <oerjan> ais523: it's a wrapper for type inference to find the right arguments
07:15:42 <oerjan> @src State
07:15:43 <lambdabot> Source not found. Are you typing with your feet?
07:15:46 <oerjan> @src StateT
07:15:47 <lambdabot> Source not found. Do you think like you type?
07:15:55 <oerjan> and @src is reliable as always
07:16:39 <oerjan> also, it's ambiguous:
07:17:03 <oerjan> @unmtl ReaderT s (Writer s) a
07:17:04 <lambdabot> s -> (a, s)
07:17:14 <oerjan> same function, different monad.
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07:58:49 <zzo38> ais523: I looked at part of the first one so far
07:59:14 <ais523> zzo38: the first one agrees with you (although possibly has different reasoning), the secondd one disagrees
07:59:30 <zzo38> However as I have shown there are even more possibilities
07:59:51 <zzo38> And I think both kind of card are OK to have in the game.
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08:04:30 <zzo38> I do believe it should be targeted by default though, although nevertheless with many different kind of card available can make the game more diverse.
08:04:58 <myname> lol, there are joke mosquitos
08:06:16 <zzo38> Puzzles are also one point in such diversity, but not the only reason
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08:20:34 <zzo38> I looked at the two versions of "Raging Centaur" in the second article. They say many people prefer the first, although to me I prefer the second, not only because 1 more toughness but there may be possibility of advantage of the ability (which they even admit). However, the second version does have a clear disadvantage in Commander.
08:23:03 <ais523> zzo38: because it's harder to fit into decks?
08:23:19 <ais523> if you're playing BG anyway it's better I think
08:25:40 <hppavilion[1]> So back to my idea about 3-sign numbers for no apparent reason
08:26:01 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: have you seen quaternions?
08:26:05 <hppavilion[1]> ~x, $x, &x. Or something like that.
08:26:07 <ais523> they have 8 signs though
08:26:13 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Yes, hasn't everyone?
08:26:15 <zzo38> Yes, if you are playing both black and green it is better even in Commander.
08:26:33 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I'm pretty sure at least one person hasn't
08:26:36 <zzo38> If you are not playing black then you cannot use it in Commander.
08:26:39 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I'm going for a simple extension of the naturals
08:27:17 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Well yes, we're excluding Roger when we discuss this sort of thing.
08:27:20 <lifthrasiir> do three signs include +?
08:27:24 <hppavilion[1]> *shudder*
08:27:43 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: It's just notation, so you could say it does, or doesn't, or that it doesn't matter in the slightest.
08:30:02 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: what rules do your system obey? for example, is ~0 = $0 = &0 or not?
08:30:35 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: Yes, 0 is signless (or all signs, or its own sign)
08:30:47 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: The craziest thing is that this actually has a use somewhere
08:31:08 <lifthrasiir> what is ~1 + $2?
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08:31:24 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: Still working on that xD
08:31:25 <lifthrasiir> the number system is meaningless without governing rules
08:31:32 <lifthrasiir> heh.
08:32:04 <hppavilion[1]> Specifically, hyperoperations. m[~4]b = m log b, whereas m[&4]b = the mth root of b
08:32:12 <hppavilion[1]> (Why I chose m and b, I have no idea)
08:32:40 <hppavilion[1]> And m[$4]b = m[4]b = m**b
08:33:11 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: I think I'll start with unary operations
08:34:02 <hppavilion[1]> &$1 = ~1, $&1 = ~1, ~$1 = &1, $~1 = &1, ~&1 = $1, &~1 = $1
08:34:19 <hppavilion[1]> And $$1 = &1, &&1 = ~1, and ~~1 = $1
08:35:25 <hppavilion[1]> Hopefully, that's consistent if we substitute x for 1
08:35:33 <myname> so, basically N x Z_3
08:35:46 <hppavilion[1]> myname: ?
08:36:09 <myname> m
08:36:11 <hppavilion[1]> Did I accidentally just invent modular arithmetic with funny notation? xD
08:37:05 <lifthrasiir> myname: since 0 is signless, not exactly equivalent
08:37:25 <myname> well, isomorphic
08:37:35 <hppavilion[1]> ~&$1 = ~~1 = $1
08:37:43 <ais523> myname: how does addition work in N × Z₃?
08:37:54 <hppavilion[1]> ~&$1 = ~$&1, of course
08:38:00 <myname> hppavilion[1]: afair there is only one group with 3 elements
08:38:15 <myname> ais523: depends. couöd be element wise
08:38:41 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Um? Umlaut?
08:38:42 <ais523> right, but that wouldn't act very like normal addition
08:38:53 <myname> could
08:38:58 <ais523> in particular, subtraction wouldn't really work at all
08:39:02 <myname> ö is right next to l
08:39:06 <lifthrasiir> myname: also, if it *were* Z_3, then some sign should behave differently from others (and that would be the identity) but it doesn't seem so
08:39:09 <hppavilion[1]> What does x mean in N x Z₃?
08:39:38 <myname> lifthrasiir: oh, right
08:39:45 <myname> hppavilion[1]: cross product
08:39:46 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: But I probably wouldn't do traditional subtraction; I'd do subtraction adjusted for my weird 3-sign system
08:39:49 <hppavilion[1]> Ah?
08:40:02 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I was basically asing what addition meant
08:40:07 <ais523> myname: not cartesian product?
08:40:20 <myname> ah, yeah
08:40:33 <lifthrasiir> myname: I'm tempting to think it as an extension of GF(4), but not sure, I don't know enough group theory after all
08:41:04 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe (should) $$x = x, ~~x = x, &&x = x
08:41:35 <hppavilion[1]> (The above was a failed attempt to use Haskell-like syntax in speech)
08:43:04 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I never said it was a group or a ring or anything; just that it's numeric and has 3 signs
08:43:32 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: well yes, you still want to define addition and subtractoin in a mostly addition/subtraction-like way, though, don't you?
08:43:33 <hppavilion[1]> It'd probably have its own entirely alien set of operations
08:44:03 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Addition if I can, but subtraction doesn't make sense because x-y = x+(-y)
08:44:26 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: x+y-y=x
08:44:41 <myname> well, you just don't have - then
08:44:41 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Yes, that too
08:44:50 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Exactly
08:44:53 <myname> x ~ y, x $ y
08:45:00 <myname> x & y
08:45:01 <hppavilion[1]> So it should be more the $, &, and ~ subtraction-like operations
08:45:08 <hppavilion[1]> Dammit, you beat me xD
08:46:31 <hppavilion[1]> This will all make hyperoperations much more difficult, not having - xD
08:46:44 <myname> how so?
08:46:44 <hppavilion[1]> And just /imagine/ the order theory 0.o
08:46:59 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Look up the definition of the hyperoperations and note the -
08:47:18 <hppavilion[1]> These 3-sign numbers, btw, are JUST for the hyperoperations index; not for the operands
08:47:22 <hppavilion[1]> (for now)
08:51:26 <myname> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=2253 it's funny 'cause it's true
09:04:03 <zzo38> It looks like the card "Cleansing" even allow you to pay life to protect opponent's lands too.
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09:33:03 <b_jonas> How exactly does Cut the Tethers work? Does first the active player choose which spirits they own to pay for, possibly activates mana abilities and makes all the payments, then the other players make choices after those payments are done, and finally spirits are returned to their owner's hands?
09:33:45 <b_jonas> And what happens if some permanents become Spirits, or new Spirits are put into play (eg. by Forbidden Orchard), or some Spirits change ownership while paying?
09:35:05 <zzo38> Let me to see the rules to see if it mention its working
09:35:43 <zzo38> As far as I know it doesn't seem to mention "for each" effects but I may be misremembering
09:36:25 <b_jonas> Even if not "for each" specifically, there are lots of general rules that may be covering this.
09:37:54 <zzo38> The rules ought to define what "for each" means in order to make it clear.
09:38:13 <b_jonas> There's rule 101.4 and stuff like that
09:42:20 <zzo38> Rule 101.4 describes APNAP order, although it also gives an example, which may be of use.
09:45:06 <zzo38> Does rule 608.2g apply?
09:47:32 <zzo38> It still fails to explain exactly what "for each" means though
09:48:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: I'm asking on efnet/#mtgrules currently
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09:52:46 <zzo38> Maybe it is like this: the active player chooses which Spirits to avoid returning, and then the nonactive player does, and then each player who chose to avoid returning can activate mana abilities, and then the mana is paid, and then all are returned simultaneously. I am not sure though; it may be wrong.
09:55:10 <zzo38> (What I mean is that before that, it is determined which permanents are Spirits and all of those ones are selected)
09:56:18 <zzo38> But it just seems unclear to me.
09:56:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: that would be very hard to imagine, because my payments can influence not only the set of spirits, but also how the opponent can activate mana abilities and/or how much mana he can get from them
09:57:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: so I don't see how you could make all the choices before paying
09:58:43 <b_jonas> efnet/SFT says, without referring to rules, that first the set of spirits is locked in, then the active player makes all choices and does all payment, then the other players do all payment, then the other spirits remembered are returned
09:59:17 <b_jonas> Cleansing is, incidentally, more horrible.
09:59:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46091&oldid=45679 * Rdebath * (+1172) /* Shortest known "hello world" program. */ new section
10:00:39 <zzo38> I did realize that the set of Spirits must be locked in first, as the rules seem to mean that.
10:00:43 <b_jonas> ais523: care to weigh in? The question is how resolving Cut the Tethers works, since when paying mana abilities, the set of Spirits may change.
10:00:53 <ais523> let me look at that card
10:01:38 <b_jonas> "<b_jonas> How exactly does Cut the Tethers work? Does first the active player choose which spirits they own to pay for, possibly activates mana abilities and makes all the payments, then the other players make choices after those payments are done, and finally spirits are returned to their owner's hands?"
10:02:18 <ais523> I'd say you iterate over the spirits in turn in the usual order (I forget what that is) and for each spirit, when you come to it in the iteration, you can pay {3}, if you don't and it's still on the battlefield it bounces
10:02:34 <ais523> not sure though, don't have the rules memorized
10:02:39 <ais523> clearly we should be asking coppro about this
10:03:24 <ais523> (what's the most ridiculous possible situation? I'm trying to figure out a way for a card to become a Spirit as the result of paying a mana ability)
10:03:43 <ais523> (which probably involves sacrificing an animated enchantment that's disabling the creature type somehow)
10:04:32 <b_jonas> Since rule 610.3 and Banishing Light, you can even have new spirits enter the battlefield when activating a mana ability.
10:05:19 <zzo38> ais523: I think the set of Spirits must be initially locked in, and that choices are made in APNAP order; but again I don't know. However, even so, the rest seem unclear to me
10:05:25 <b_jonas> ais523: sacrifice a liquimetal-coated Lignify to a Krark-Clan Ironworks to turn a card back to a spirit
10:05:27 <ais523> ooh, you use opalescence to animate a banishing light, then sacrifice it to phyrexian altar?
10:05:39 <ais523> heh, we had much the same idea there
10:06:08 <b_jonas> ais523: sacrifice a liquimetal-coated Banishing Light to return a Spirit to the battlefield
10:06:56 <b_jonas> oh, there's a Phyrexian Altar? that might be even better! I was using Ashnod's Altar in my examples
10:07:14 <b_jonas> although Ashnod's Altar is cheaper apparently
10:07:19 <b_jonas> because it's uncommon
10:07:31 <zzo38> There may even be situations in the game where you would want to ensure to do something during a mana step in order to avoid state-based actions that would otherwise occur in between the mana abilities being activated.
10:07:40 <ais523> tbf ashnod's altar is probably better too
10:07:52 <ais523> {2} is better than one mana of any colour IMO
10:07:55 <b_jonas> sure, Ashnod's Altar is more powerful in a real game
10:09:22 <b_jonas> ais523: there are also cycles of land that have mana abilities that sacrifice that land, which can (in theory, not likely in real games) affect how much mana an opponent can pay with Exotic Orchard or Felwar Stone
10:09:47 <b_jonas> s/Felwar/Fellwar/
10:10:10 <b_jonas> ok, let's ask coppro
10:10:12 <b_jonas> coppro: ^
10:10:16 <ais523> or reflecting pool
10:10:30 <ais523> actually there are quite a lot of effects like that
10:10:40 <b_jonas> Reflecting Pool is on your own mana
10:10:58 <ais523> still, same problem for this example
10:11:00 <b_jonas> but of course Ahnod's Altar or Krark-Clan Ironworks can directly sacrifice lands or mana-producing artifacts
10:11:14 <ais523> although cut the tethers doesn't care about colour, we can make it care by sacrificing the last colour-producing land
10:11:23 <ais523> (which might be, say, a dryad arbor)
10:11:42 <b_jonas> ais523: color matters because if I no longer own a land that produces any _colored_ mana, then the opponent's Exotic Orchard can't produce mana at all
10:11:48 <ais523> yes, that's what I said
10:12:19 <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Befana YOU PEOPLE DON'T HAVE THIS?!?
10:12:21 <izabera> WTF?!
10:13:14 <b_jonas> let me look this up, there were rules clearly stating that at least for paying the mana costs of a spell or ability, you choose how to pay for everything first, then make the payments all together, but the payments have to be possible, or something
10:13:21 <zzo38> With Cleansing I suppose it might work by first locking the set of all lands, and then the active player chooses which to protect (they don't have to be his own) and pays, and then the nonactive player chooses which to protect (he may choose ones that are already protected) and pays, and then all unprotected lands are destroyed simultaneously. Is that it? I don't know
10:13:41 <ais523> now I'm trying to figure out a set of langs which can't collectively all be tapped for mana, but which can individually all be tapped for mana
10:15:40 <b_jonas> ais523: there are lots of lands that can produce _more_ mana if you sacrifice them, but you can still get fewer mana from them
10:16:14 <ais523> ah right, I didn't mean like that
10:17:16 <zzo38> These kind of thing are reasons why I would intend to design the new card game by writing the rules as a literate computer program with mathematical definitions included, and then the cards also have computer codes associated with them. This way can make the rules much more clear!
10:17:42 <ais523> I have had thoughts about trading card game design
10:18:12 <ais523> that are designed to eliminate memorized information (i.e. all information about the gamestate is conveyed by the position of the cards), and yet be reasonably flexible in how the rules work
10:18:58 <zzo38> (I would also probably intend to design a new literate programming system for this purpose, one thing being to arrange sections in the way which is more suitable for this kind of document. Also probably it will compile into a new VM called CardVM made for this purpose, so it is even a new VM too)
10:21:55 <b_jonas> there's strange lands like Lake of the Dead
10:24:50 <zzo38> ais523: That does look like reasonable I suppose, although it doesn't seem to address the kind of issues that I address?
10:25:11 <ais523> zzo38: well there's nothing inherently open-source or closed-source about rules
10:25:54 <ais523> it'd also have a streamlined computer interface compared to Magic because most of the decisions you could make would be small numbers of choices from large sets, rather than large numbers of choices from small sets
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10:31:57 <zzo38> Maybe you miss the point. While these things I am suggesting would be open-source, it is not the point I am trying to make.
10:33:08 <ais523> zzo38: you think they should be in a programming language not natural language so that they're clearer to enforce
10:33:09 <b_jonas> ais523: right, it should somehow make sure not to have to ask for choices from both players very frequently that are irrelevant for the game most of the time, such as the order triggers go to the stack, the order objects simultanously entering a zone get their timestamps, which replacement effect is applied when there is more than one possible, etc.
10:33:20 <b_jonas> \ such as the order triggers go to the stack, the order objects simultanously entering a zone get their timestamps, which replacement effect is applied when there is more than one possible, etc.
10:33:21 <ais523> zzo38: but Hearthstone and MTGO both work like that, just the rules are closed-souce
10:33:27 <ais523> *closed-source
10:34:06 <b_jonas> Apparently there are lots of lands from before modern that sacrifice themselves for mana, and I didn't really know about them.
10:34:07 <zzo38> ais523: I can see that, and yet it is a kind of problem, since then it is difficult to know the rules of the game. I don't mean enforcing the rules, I mean even just knowing the rules!
10:34:13 <ais523> b_jonas: probably the biggest choice I made was to not have replacement or triggered abilities; rather, all abilities are activated (for drawback abilities your opponent can activate them for you)
10:34:50 <b_jonas> Sixth edition has a cycle of uncommon lands like Svyelunite Temple that tap for M, or tap and sacrifice for MM;
10:34:50 <ais523> also activated abilities that work from the graveyard only work on the top card in the graveyard
10:35:15 <zzo38> That idea about the top card of graveyard I have actually had too
10:35:59 <b_jonas> Odyssey has a cycle of uncommon lands like Seafloor Debris that tap for M, or tap and sacrifice for one mana of any color.
10:36:07 <ais523> instead of death triggers, basically you just activate the card once it reaches the graveyard
10:36:28 <zzo38> But some of my other ideas would include that the game is design to work whether or not a computer is in use, and that CardVM is completely independent of the user interface and server and client and so on; it only implements game rules and nothing else.
10:36:38 <b_jonas> Invasion has a cycle of common lands like Ancient Spring that tap for M or tap and sacrifice for DE in allied colors.
10:37:14 <zzo38> ais523: Maybe you may also intend that the stack (if any) is only for cards and not activated abilities? It seem to fit what you have said earlier
10:37:19 <haavard> I'm trying to understand what's being discussed here
10:37:27 <haavard> Are you designing a new card game?
10:37:28 <b_jonas> And apart from these three cycles, there are several individual lands like this: Archaeological Dig is an uncommon in invasion that taps for 1 or taps and sacrifices for one mana of any one color.
10:37:42 <ais523> zzo38: yes, in order to activate an ability you move the card itself to the stack
10:37:54 <ais523> haavard: we're discussing potential designs that new card games could use
10:37:56 <b_jonas> Crystal Vein is a strange land that taps and sacrifices for 2.
10:38:17 <zzo38> ais523: Ah, OK, yes that works too
10:38:38 <ais523> and the ability tells you where to put the card once it resolves
10:38:51 <ais523> you can whether it's a cast or an ability by where the card is on the stack
10:39:07 <b_jonas> There are so many cards in Magic and I'm learning about them in a slow pace, and can't keep up with how fast they're published.
10:39:11 <zzo38> Such as if it is placed forward or turned right do you mean?
10:39:14 <ais523> (this also means that most activated abilities can only be cast in response to something, which adds strategy to the ame)
10:39:14 <haavard> I see. And why is b_jonas and zzo38 looking for sac-lands? :P
10:39:27 <ais523> zzo38: no, it's based on whether it's the bottom of the stack or higher
10:39:45 <ais523> also you can only respond to your opponent's actions, not your own (this greatly reduces the number of priority passes)
10:39:56 <zzo38> Yes, that is something to do too
10:40:09 <zzo38> They are interesting ideas
10:41:21 <ais523> you can prevent your opponent activating abilities by just not doing anything, but this is probably a bad idea because you're basically giving your opponent free attacks
10:41:32 <b_jonas> haavard: I'm looking for sac lands because some of those seem to be practically usable so I should buy them, but also they are lands with tap mana abilities that sacrifice a permanent immediately, which has strange rules consequences, somewhat similarly to Krark-Clan Ironworks, Ashnod's Altar, Phyrexian Altar.
10:42:02 <zzo38> Yes I like this you can design such card game too
10:42:36 <haavard> What kind of strange rules consequences are these, b_jonas?
10:43:03 <b_jonas> (At least the latter ones don't have a tap in them, so they don't trigger "a land is tapped for" rules, although their abilities can still be copied to a land with Quicksilver Elemental or Experiment Kraj and so they can affect Fellwar.)
10:43:43 <b_jonas> Mind you, there's also Phyrexian Tower, which is a land that taps and sacrifices any creature for mana, so it's ruleswise the most horrible.
10:44:12 <ais523> the phyrexians are like that
10:44:49 <b_jonas> haavard: strange rules consequences because you can often activate mana abilities in strange times, like while a player is resolving a spell or ability, or when paying for attack restrictions.
10:44:55 <haavard> Should get Datatog in here.
10:45:00 <zzo38> b_jonas: That means you can even sacrifice a creature during a mana step
10:45:13 <haavard> Ah, I see..
10:45:22 <b_jonas> But I looked up those common and uncommon lands because I should consider buying some of them. They are cheaper than the Vivid lands.
10:45:46 <zzo38> If you can active multiple mana ability, even to avoid state-based action in between if doing it during a mana step
10:45:59 <ais523> b_jonas: so say you have yet another æther vortex in play, and you sacrifice a panglacial wurm on top of your library to phyrexian tower to pay for itself
10:46:03 <haavard> Sort of like how Selvala also has weird interactions if she fails to produce enough mana
10:46:32 <ais523> haavard: I think the public Magic rules question answering services ended up vetoing selvala + panglacial wurm questions after a bit
10:48:08 <haavard> That's the one where you search your library, right?
10:48:28 <haavard> And you reveal at the same time, and end up having to reverse everything etc.
10:48:52 <ais523> haavard: it's the one that can be cast from your library while you're searching it
10:48:56 <zzo38> I would completely rewrite the rules for what can be reversed and what happens if impossible
10:49:30 <ais523> actually the main complexity here is that selvala lets you draw a card while you're searching your library, so you need to have kept the library in order during the search
10:49:50 <zzo38> Doing so requires introducing the concepts of "entropy" and "transactional controller"
10:49:53 <ais523> (luckily you can't draw the panglacial wurm itself because I think it's on the stack at that point? which also answers my æther vortex question)
10:50:26 <zzo38> ais523: It seem clear to me how it works, although outside of a puzzle it may be less clear what to do about it I suppose
10:51:23 <zzo38> And also "automatically losing on time"
10:52:23 <ais523> well in a tournament, you play 5 turns after time runs out, it's a draw if nobody wins in that time
10:52:34 <ais523> that's because it's normally very hard to determine who's responsible for the game going slowly
10:52:48 <ais523> with all the priority passes involved
10:54:45 <zzo38> That is also unimportant in puzzles, although I happen to just like the puzzles much more than actual play game anyways
10:57:46 <ais523> I don't really like the gameplay either, I just like the mental exercise of thinking about the game
10:57:53 <ais523> mostly in terms of hypothetical mental deckbuilding
10:58:21 <zzo38> Look at my puzzles and see if you can figure it out!
10:58:58 <haavard> zzo38: puzzles?
11:00:32 <zzo38> Yes I made many puzzles of Magic: the Gathering. (Other people have also made many)
11:00:51 <haavard> Neat, got a link? Sounds like fun
11:01:41 <zzo38> Yes. They are http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.1 up to puzzle.6 (although puzzle.1 isn't very good, the rest are better)
11:02:42 <zzo38> (You can look up card texts on Gatherer or something else)
11:03:01 <zzo38> Do you know rules of Magic: the Gathering? If you do not, then it is difficult.
11:03:44 <haavard> I'm pretty familiar with the rules, yeah
11:03:55 <haavard> I'll check these out later when I'm off work :)
11:04:16 <zzo38> OK
11:05:51 <zzo38> I also made up several custom cards (none are used in the puzzles though, nor are these custom cards necessarily fixed), in case you have interest in such thing as that too
11:10:35 <haavard> I don't really find custom Magic interesting unless it's joke cards or something like that
11:13:10 <zzo38> I did make joke cards too but I keep it in a separate file
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11:30:11 <b_jonas> "<ais523> so say you have yet another æther vortex in play, and you sacrifice a panglacial wurm on top of your library to phyrexian tower to pay for itself" -- I don't think that works, because you have to move the card to the stack before deciding how to pay for it.
11:30:29 <ais523> b_jonas: right, I noticed that later
11:30:49 <b_jonas> what's this "selvala"?
11:31:38 <b_jonas> "<ais523> (luckily you can't draw the panglacial wurm itself because I think it's on the stack at that point? which also answers my æther vortex question)" - ah good
11:32:31 <ais523> b_jonas: selvala has a mana ability where everyone reveals-and-draws a card and you add mana to your mana pool equal to the number of lands revealed
11:32:51 <ais523> which IMO is one of the worst mistakes from a rules perspective ever made
11:32:54 <ais523> in M:tG
11:33:26 <ais523> might be the number of nonlands revealed, can't remember which, but lands makes more sense really
11:33:38 <b_jonas> oh, Selvala: Explorer Returned from Conspiracy?
11:33:43 <ais523> yes
11:35:06 <b_jonas> Why is that much worse than mana abilities that let you sacrifice any creature or any artifact? Sacrificing an artifact can cause permanents to return to play, lots of characteristic changes, and also players losing the game.
11:35:56 <zzo38> In my opinion the problem is the rules about rewinding, which could be fixed much better, and avoid some of these problems
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11:37:44 <ais523> b_jonas: because you can't tell with certainty how much mana you're going to get
11:37:55 <ais523> like, you could cast llanowar elves or something like that with only selvala to pay for it
11:38:15 <b_jonas> Oh, I see, the problem is that it adds a variable amount of mana to your pool, so you can't decide how to pay and then do all the payments.
11:38:16 <ais523> then turns out you get 0 mana off the mana ability, but now everyone has looked at the top card of their library
11:38:18 <ais523> right
11:38:49 <ais523> IMO that ability should have been restricted to being cast at instant speed
11:39:02 <ais523> there's really no reason to be able to do it at mana ability speed; the cases where that matters are really obscure
11:39:02 <b_jonas> Yes, that is a problem, but it isn't a big problem, in the sense that it can be fixed easily with a rules change on 605.1 to turn that ability not a mana ability.
11:39:27 <b_jonas> ais523: they can still fix that by changing the comprehensive rules or the oracle text of that card
11:39:29 <ais523> (some kind of mana leak effect with split second would do it)
11:39:32 <zzo38> I would do very differently fixed
11:39:34 <ais523> b_jonas: right, and I hope they do
11:40:17 <ais523> although you can get variable mana payments even without selvala, can't you? sacrifice something that doubles mana output as a means of generating mana
11:40:26 <ais523> the difference there is that it's not a random factor, you know in advance that it's going to happen
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11:40:49 <zzo38> If you don't have enough mana, the player in the process of casting the spell concedes if he has not already seen the top card of his opponent's library.
11:41:00 <zzo38> That is how I would write the rules
11:41:05 <b_jonas> Have there already been a way, before Selvala, to find out about hidden information during a mana ability? I think there probably has been, but I wonder how.
11:41:44 <b_jonas> Even if it's a mana ability where you know exactly what mana it will give.
11:42:03 <ais523> b_jonas: mana abilities that draw cards as a side effect while lantern of insight is in play
11:42:11 <ais523> (there are a few mana filterers that also draw cards)
11:42:15 <zzo38> There are some mana ability to draw cards, and there are also replacement effects that can cause various stuff
11:43:11 <b_jonas> ais523: (a) what mana ability draws cards as a side effect, and (b) no, I think there's a specific rule for drawing cards to stop this,
11:43:39 <zzo38> (The Gatherer rulings tell you not to look at those cards, although the rules of the game seem to say no such thing; my proposed way of fixing the rules would be that if you do choose to look at the card that makes it unreversible and forces you to concede if there is no other possibility)
11:43:42 <b_jonas> 401.5 although that's restricted.
11:43:52 <ais523> b_jonas: chromatic sphere
11:44:12 <ais523> rulings say it's a mana ability (which makes sense, as it has no targets and generates mana), but it draws a card
11:44:34 <b_jonas> Ah right, Chromatic Sphere.
11:45:31 <b_jonas> 401.5 covers only the time while a spell or ability is being played, which might be enough, becuse those are the times when a transaction that may have to be reversed is active.
11:45:59 <b_jonas> And 401.6 says the same about the top card of the library
11:46:01 <zzo38> Such thing may also force the transactional controller's teammates to concede, depending on situation, in my proposed rule changes.
11:46:43 <b_jonas> ais523: I think because of 401.5 and 401.6 that example won't cause a player to learn any hidden information while casting a spell,
11:47:04 <b_jonas> although you're right that it can cause information to be learnt while you're paying for an effect, but in that case it's not a problem.
11:47:28 <ais523> b_jonas: so what if you use two chromatic spheres on the same spell
11:47:36 <ais523> with lantern of insight in play
11:47:43 <ais523> does the opponent get to see the second card you draw, and if so, when?
11:47:43 <zzo38> Anyone who deliberate takes advantage of these rules that force someone to concede or to help his teammates, is disqualified.
11:48:00 <b_jonas> ais523: no, because of 401.6
11:48:23 <ais523> but normally if you draw two cards with a "reveal the top card of your library" effect in play, the opponent sees both
11:49:59 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, do you mean whether they see the spell later, after all the reversible stuff ends?
11:50:16 <b_jonas> I don't know
11:50:24 <ais523> b_jonas: right
11:50:55 <ais523> I'm vaguely reminded of the questions involving unexpectedly having a sylvan library trigger when you brainstormed earlier in the turn
11:50:59 <ais523> although I forget what the setup is
11:51:28 <ais523> (it suddenly becomes relevant which cards you drew off the brainstorm, which the opponent isn't entitled to know and yet you have to prove)
11:52:02 <b_jonas> I'm sure nobody gets to see the cards _during_ playing any spell or ability, even if that's not the spell or ability relevant for paying, because there's nested Panglacials involved.
11:52:29 <Taneb> :(
11:52:41 <Taneb> My exam this morning (on linear optimization and game theory) did not go well
11:52:51 <Taneb> Largely because I forgot how to do both linear optimization and game theory
11:52:52 <b_jonas> By the way, even though Panglacial used to look really scary to me, I'm starting to think it doesn't really cause any serious rules problems that you wouldn't have otherwise.
11:53:14 <ais523> the only real influence it has is that you can't reorder your library while searching it
11:53:51 <zzo38> Also with my propsed rules: If an action that involved a library being shuffled must be rewound, what happens depends on the history of the game.
11:54:20 <ais523> are there any mana abilities that cause a player to shuffle their library?
11:54:21 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, and also that the cards you found when searching stay in the library (in the same place) until something actually causes you to move them.
11:54:55 <b_jonas> ais523: Lich's Mirror I think
11:55:09 <ais523> b_jonas: haha, beautiful
11:55:14 <b_jonas> (sorry)
11:55:17 <ais523> that screws things up much more than just the library shuffle I think
11:55:23 <b_jonas> why?
11:55:29 <b_jonas> it still doesn't cause to reveal any information
11:55:38 <ais523> well it also shuffles your hand and all your permanents into your library and draws you seven cards
11:56:05 <ais523> which is a pretty screwy effect for a mana ability to have
11:56:08 <b_jonas> even regardless of mana abilities causing players to lose as a side effect (eg. by saccing a Platinum Angel), it has always been the case that players can leave the game at basically any time by conceding
11:56:31 <b_jonas> why is it a screwy effect?
11:56:47 <ais523> just a large change to the gamestate, there's a lot of zone changes involved
11:56:48 <b_jonas> as in, more screwy than just sacrificing permanents
11:56:57 <ais523> although admittedly most of them can be done individually (sacrifice, card draw)
11:57:10 <b_jonas> wait, card draw?
11:57:12 <b_jonas> oh damn
11:57:24 <b_jonas> oh right, card draw
11:57:27 <b_jonas> like with Chromatic Sphere
11:57:35 <b_jonas> hmm
11:58:14 <b_jonas> all that while you're still searching your library and you cast a Panglacial?
11:58:26 <b_jonas> as in, you move cards to your library while searching?
11:58:29 <ais523> this is probably the only way to move a card from your graveyard to your hand at mana ability speed though
11:58:57 <ais523> b_jonas: hmm yes, enlarging the library mid-search is a little screwy
11:59:09 <b_jonas> not counting reverting a move from the hand to the graveyard?
11:59:52 <b_jonas> right, that doesn't really count.
11:59:53 <b_jonas> hmm
11:59:56 <b_jonas> crazy
12:00:35 <ais523> so let's see: I have lich's mirror in play, play a card that lets me search for (say) two lands, I find one, cast panglacial wurm by paying my last point of life to generate mana, panglacial wurm's on the stack but the land I found ends up in my hand naturally, then I find another land that was previously in my graveyard
12:00:44 <ais523> or does that not work? and if so, why not?
12:01:14 <ais523> when searching, do you do panglacial wurm casting before or after you find things, or both? before makes the most sense rules-wise
12:01:41 <b_jonas> ais523: no, you don't lose from 0 life until state-based actions are ran
12:01:54 <ais523> oh right
12:02:00 <ais523> any way to lose faster than that?
12:02:09 <ais523> (other than conceding which would disrupt the rest of the "combo")
12:02:11 <b_jonas> hmm
12:03:31 <b_jonas> dunno
12:03:45 <b_jonas> you could lose a Platinum Angel, but that might not be enough for anything
12:04:09 <b_jonas> maybe I was wrong and you can't lose the game immediately from a mana ability, other than by conceding?
12:04:17 <b_jonas> (in comprehensive rules)
12:05:29 <Taneb> Is there anything like AWK for working with binary data?
12:05:48 <b_jonas> ah
12:05:53 <b_jonas> ais523: Forbidden Crypt
12:05:55 <ais523> Taneb: perl with use open IO=>':bytes' is pretty close
12:06:22 <ais523> b_jonas: that works I think
12:06:25 <Taneb> ais523: my goal with this is 70% making my friends look at me funny
12:06:32 <ais523> replacement effect so it copies the speed of the card draw
12:06:35 <b_jonas> and possibly Nefarious Lich if you can somehow get damage dealt during
12:06:37 <Taneb> I guess I could use strings of 1s and 0s
12:06:53 <ais523> Taneb: well that'd be good for making your friends look at you funny
12:07:18 <boily> Taneb: is your data aligned on bytes, or is it a bitstream?
12:07:19 <b_jonas> can you deal damage while activating mana abilities?
12:07:30 <Taneb> boily: it's aligned on 108-bit chunks
12:07:37 <zzo38> b_jonas: I believe some ways to do so yes
12:09:10 <zzo38> Some mana abilities deal damage to their controller
12:09:32 <zzo38> (This damage may be redirected)
12:09:59 <b_jonas> Taneb: that might depend on which implementation of awk you take, but for some awk it is definitely possible, because http://pts.szit.bme.hu/muzcat-mini-latest.tar.gz handles binary data and has a gawk version
12:10:23 <boily> Taneb: eep.
12:11:43 <b_jonas> hmm
12:11:47 <b_jonas> I might actually be wrong
12:12:04 <b_jonas> maybe the gawk version doesn't actually work.
12:12:17 <Taneb> I think it'd be fine for me to use strings of 1s and 0s
12:13:09 <b_jonas> There's a compile_gawk.sh but it's not mentioned in the README and it doesn't seem to be actually supported in muzcat.c so I don't think it works.
12:13:13 <b_jonas> I'll have to ask PTS about this.
12:14:01 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh right
12:16:21 <Taneb> The issue is I want to do bitwise logic on these to some extent
12:17:43 <Taneb> Oooh, Gawk supports that!
12:18:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: let me recap. while resolving a tutor, you cast a Panglacial from your library, and to pay for it, you tap a Skyshroud Forest, replace its damage with Nefarious Lich, mirror the loss with Lich's Mirror, and that gets cards into your library.
12:18:35 <b_jonas> Wait wait
12:20:30 <b_jonas> Lich's Mirror has you shuffle all permanents you own into your library? So if I am so gracious as to Bazaar Trader a Lich's Mirror to an opponent, he can use it repeatedly to replace game loss?
12:20:37 <b_jonas> That's nice of Lich's Mirror.
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12:20:50 <Taneb> Although and("1110", "1011") prints 82
12:20:55 <Taneb> I'm not entirely sure what's going on
12:20:56 <b_jonas> It doesn't cause any rules problem, just wondering.
12:21:18 <Taneb> 82 in binary'd be 1010010 right?
12:22:32 <Taneb> brb
12:22:35 <b_jonas> Taneb: yes, but the and function in awk operates on numbers, and just like perl, awk automatically converts strings to numbers by interpreting them as decimal, unless they have a 0x or something
12:22:40 <lifthrasiir> Taneb: 1110 & 1011 in decimal *is* 82
12:22:50 <Taneb> Aaaargh
12:23:06 <b_jonas> oh dear...
12:23:10 <b_jonas> I didn't want to know this
12:23:11 <Taneb> Right
12:23:14 <Taneb> I see what I'm doing now
12:23:25 <b_jonas> awk has a variable like perls' $# but BACKWARDS, controlling conversion from number to string
12:23:48 <b_jonas> no wait
12:23:49 <b_jonas> it doesn't
12:23:50 <b_jonas> whew
12:24:11 <b_jonas> CONVFMT of gawk is just the same as $# of perl: it controls converting numbers to strings
12:24:15 <b_jonas> still scary enough
12:24:16 <b_jonas> but less so
12:25:11 <b_jonas> although apparently locales might be involved, depending on moon phase and stuff
12:25:16 <b_jonas> I don't want to know the details
12:25:33 <b_jonas> anyway, in simple cases, auto-conversion from string to integer in awk will read decimal
12:25:42 <b_jonas> (I don't generally do awk)
12:26:17 <fizzie> The man says it always just does strtod, but I can't get it to accept hexadecimal floats for some reason.
12:27:06 <b_jonas> ais523: wait wait
12:27:38 <ais523> fizzie: does strtod do hexfloats on your system? (and does it depend on compiler flags?)
12:28:02 <fizzie> ais523: My 'man strtod' claims it does, but I didn't verify that.
12:28:28 <fizzie> C11 strtod certainly is supposed to.
12:28:34 <fizzie> (As is the C99 one, I think.)
12:28:35 <ais523> parsing some things you previously didn't parse is a backwards compat change
12:29:25 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, if Panglacial isn't involved, does this mean that while paying the costs of a spell you're playing, you may have to shuffle your library in such a way that most of its cards are still hidden, but that you can revert the shuffling if the playing fails?
12:29:31 <fizzie> I vaguely recall that it might've been a C99 addition.
12:29:37 <b_jonas> that's technically possible, but would be very ugly to do in practice.
12:30:03 <ais523> b_jonas: I guess yes, you could set off a shuffle and draw while playing a spell
12:30:06 <b_jonas> probably you'd postpone physically shuffling the library till later
12:30:25 <ais523> then activate selvala (who was under a banishing light) /after/ that and discover you didn't have enough mana :-)
12:30:49 <ais523> you'd have to shuffle immediately because you need to randomize the top card of your library for the lich's mirror draw and for selvala's ability
12:30:54 <b_jonas> ais523: you don't need Selvala, just a player conceding can be enough to cause you to revert the stuff
12:31:09 <ais523> selvala lets you pull it off in a 2p game
12:31:11 <ais523> but good point
12:31:12 <b_jonas> ais523: you don't have to physically shuffle for that, you can randomize without that
12:31:21 <b_jonas> ni fact
12:31:24 <ais523> this doesn't need panglacial /or/ selvala
12:31:35 <b_jonas> you can probably put off the card drawing till later too
12:31:44 <b_jonas> because nobody can look at the drawn card anyway
12:31:56 <b_jonas> do you'd postpone the physical act of (shuffling and drawing card)
12:32:01 <ais523> what if you're discarding the (face-down) cards for mana
12:32:02 <b_jonas> even if it happens from a game perspective
12:32:19 <b_jonas> ais523: that 4??.? rule regulates that too
12:32:25 <b_jonas> it counts as having no characteristics while it's hidden
12:32:32 <ais523> to try to get enough after your exotic orchards got turned off by an opponent conceding
12:32:55 <ais523> b_jonas: no, I mean is there no ability that lets you simply discard cards to generate mana? (possibly with an extra t in the cost)
12:32:59 <ais523> with no requirements on them?
12:33:24 <b_jonas> ais523: um... I don't think so
12:33:51 <b_jonas> ais523: there's the Spirit Guide but that doesn't help here
12:33:58 <b_jonas> because you can't activate it until the card is revealed
12:34:37 <b_jonas> oh samn
12:34:38 <b_jonas> there is
12:34:42 <b_jonas> ais523: Bog Witch
12:34:57 <b_jonas> oh, and also Lion's Eye Diamond (duy)
12:35:01 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, I was going to use another chromatic sphere + chains of mephistopheles
12:35:07 <ais523> lion's eye diamond definitely works too
12:35:13 <b_jonas> and Overeager Apprentice
12:35:14 <ais523> wait, no
12:35:22 <ais523> lion's eye diamond is restricted to instant speed
12:35:22 <b_jonas> and Skirge Familiar, the simplest
12:35:39 <ais523> (it's a mana ability but with a timing restriction
12:35:41 <ais523> )
12:35:45 <b_jonas> wait, how does Skirge Familiar work?
12:35:58 <ais523> skirge failiar's just a regular mana ability though
12:36:13 <b_jonas> a creature with "Discard a card: Add {B} to your mana pool." and no drawback?
12:36:21 <ais523> it costs 5
12:36:23 <b_jonas> that seems horribly overpowered even for an Urza's card
12:36:24 <ais523> that's a drawback
12:36:26 <b_jonas> even still
12:36:37 <b_jonas> I mean, that's like Channel level broken, isn't it?
12:36:46 <b_jonas> yes, you can't play it first turn
12:36:47 <ais523> no, it's harder to get 19 cards than 19 life
12:36:47 <b_jonas> but still
12:36:55 <b_jonas> hmm
12:36:59 <b_jonas> ok, I guess that's true
12:37:12 <b_jonas> ok, it's not _that_ broken then
12:37:19 <b_jonas> not more than Ashnod's Altar
12:37:57 <b_jonas> It wouldn't be printed now, but you're right that it's not too broken
12:38:31 <b_jonas> ok, so the question is what happens if you use Skirge Familiar to discard a card you just drew with Chromatic Sphere, all while paying for a spell?
12:39:11 <ais523> here: I cast an expensive spell, filter a mana with chromatic sphere, the draw gets replaced by forbidden crypt and causes me to lose (empty graveyard), which gets replaced by lich's mirror, then I discard the resulting 7 cards to a skirge familiar that came back from under a banishing light (or that an opponent owns but I control), then I try to pay the remaining mana with a shimmering pool that came back from under a different banishing light
12:39:21 <ais523> but in response, my only opponent who controls any colour-producing lands concedes
12:39:48 <ais523> and so I'm short one mana for the spell
12:39:55 <ais523> (without concessions I would be guaranteed to have enough)
12:40:08 <ais523> (also the forbidden crypt gets shuffled in by the lich's mirror so doesn't affect the subsequent card draws)
12:42:33 <b_jonas> SirCmpwn: what's a "shimmering pool"?
12:42:52 <ais523> weird misping there
12:43:00 <b_jonas> ouch
12:43:04 <ais523> I mean the land that generates opponent-coloured mana
12:43:08 <b_jonas> probably a mistap and a tab
12:43:11 <ais523> did you somehow typo ais as si?
12:43:21 <b_jonas> no, I probalby just tried to press a tab
12:43:24 <b_jonas> "a" and then tab
12:43:33 <b_jonas> but instead pressed "s" followed by tab
12:43:55 <b_jonas> do you mean a Reflecting Pool? or some other card?
12:44:28 <ais523> I think I meant Exotic Orchard
12:44:32 <b_jonas> there'll be a Mirror Pool in the next expansion, but it doesn't seem relevant
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12:45:12 <ais523> not sure how I got that confused
12:45:18 <ais523> anyway, almost out of battery, and it's lunchtime
12:45:19 <ais523> bye everyone
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12:46:03 <b_jonas> (There's multiple cards with Shimmering, and two of them can give any color.)
12:51:30 <SirCmpwn> b_jonas: what?
12:51:49 <Taneb> AWK seems to use 53 bit integers
12:52:05 <Taneb> gawk, at least
12:53:14 <Taneb> Ah, you can set that
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13:18:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: efnet/Athildur claims (without rule proof) that if there's a Chromatic Lantern otb and I use two Chromatic Spheres while casting a spell, then after the spell is successfully cast, opponents get to look at both cards.
13:20:49 <zzo38> How is that?
13:21:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: no wait
13:22:16 <b_jonas> right, he has already seen the first card anyway, before the spell, and will see the next card on top of my library after casting, and the question was whether he sees the second card I draw.
13:23:36 <b_jonas> I also asked what happens if there's no chromatic lantern, but while casting an elephant, I draw a card with Chromatic Sphere and then discard it to Skirge Familiar. They say it's probably permitted, but no answer yet on why you can't look at it.
13:24:52 <zgrep> s/(...)ch/out-\1/fizz
13:25:07 <zgrep> Oh, no regex replacement bot, right.
13:28:38 <zzo38> I just believe that rule 717 needs to be entirely rewritten in order to avoid such problems.
13:29:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: rule 717 should be rewritten for clarity, but I don't think it can be rewritten in such a way to avoid these kinds of problems.
13:30:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think that rule should say that to revert actions, first you revert the whole game state, then any player who had conceded during the transaction leaves the game, with all its consequences, then you continue the game.
13:36:43 <zzo38> I have many ideas about how to fix it though, although it is complicated.
13:38:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jbs1010 * New user account
13:38:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: would the fix have observable rules consequences even when nobody concedes or leaves the game or loses the game even during the actions that are reverted?
13:39:56 <zzo38> The steps you mentioned are part of it, although there would also be a lot of things about what can be reversed and how, and that the transactional controller is forced to concede if reversing it is impossible (with the consequences for conceding you mentioned above)
13:40:54 <zzo38> b_jonas: Let me to think about it; I am not sure
13:48:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: is there anything that's actually impossible to reverse, even with rules fixes that should be done, eg. on Selvala?
13:48:41 <b_jonas> And rules fixes on the Chromatic Sphere plus Skirge Familiar situation.
13:48:54 <b_jonas> And I mean in the comprehensive rules, not in tournament rules.
13:49:15 <b_jonas> The tournament rules have to handle mistakes that can't be reversed, such as accidentally looking at cards that the rules wouldn't allow you to look at.
13:49:23 <b_jonas> (It does handle them.)
13:50:14 <zzo38> My proposed fixes would not alter that rule; Selvala could still be used as is, and Chromatic Sphere plus Skirge Familiar could also still be used as is, although if reversing is necessary then the new rule 717 is taken into effect to determine what happens; this depends on whether or not you looked at those cards, as well as on other things.
13:50:44 <b_jonas> Oh wait
13:50:49 <b_jonas> there's the infinite loops thing
13:52:01 <b_jonas> I found earlier than the rule about infinite loops that a player can terminate does have impossible and undefined consequences.
13:52:18 <b_jonas> And that does interact with reverting stuff.
13:52:27 <zzo38> Shuffling a library is no longer always impossible to reverse, but in some cases it is impossible.
13:54:05 <zzo38> Same with drawing a card; if you choose not to look at the drawn card, or if you would have already known what the top card of your library was and all players knew this, then it can safely be reversed, otherwise it isn't. But you are not prohibited from looking at the drawn card (you are not forced to either though).
13:55:58 <b_jonas> In the sense of explaining a rules situation, what's the easiest way to cast any card at instant speed? Teferi and Isochron Scepter work only on particular sets of cards.
13:56:42 <b_jonas> I don't mean any card, just any card that can be cast, i.e. a card that's not a land and not of a type that is always in the command zone.
13:56:57 <b_jonas> And I'd like to cast it face up.
13:58:59 <b_jonas> Hmm, as for invented cards, would it make sense to have an instant that simply says "Choose a card from your hand. You may cast that card." ? What would that have to cost?
13:59:05 <b_jonas> no wait, it would have to say nonland
13:59:14 <b_jonas> "Choose a nonland card from your hand. You may cast that card."
14:04:01 <b_jonas> Ah right, Ice Cauldron lets you cast any nonland card immediately. It's the most flexible solution I think.
14:05:57 <b_jonas> Ah no.
14:06:04 <b_jonas> Ice cauldron doesn't let you cast the spell immediately.
14:06:15 <b_jonas> It only lets you cast from a different zone with normal timing.
14:08:00 <b_jonas> what the heck?
14:10:20 <b_jonas> Is there ANY way to cast some enchantment of my choice, say Holy Strength, face up at instant speed, provided I own it?
14:12:01 <coppro> what are you asking me about?
14:12:13 <coppro> b_jonas: vedalken orrery?
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14:13:31 <b_jonas> oh!
14:13:35 <b_jonas> Vedalken Orrery, right
14:13:38 <b_jonas> I always forget about that one
14:14:34 <b_jonas> Teferi is a much more memorable character, even if I think the Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir card in TSP is a disappointing representation of him.
14:14:50 <b_jonas> He's represented much better on other cards, like Ovinize and Disruptive Student.
14:18:02 <b_jonas> ais523: efnet/Athildur claims (without rule proof) that if there's a Chromatic Lantern otb and I use two Chromatic Spheres while casting a spell, then after the spell is successfully cast, opponents get to look at both cards.
14:18:54 <coppro> why?
14:19:26 <b_jonas> ais523: they also claim that while casting an elephant, it's possible to draw a card with Chromatic Sphere and discard it with Skirge Familiar, and that it *should* presumably still be hidden with no characteristics in the gy during casting the spell, but the comp rules apparently doesn't say that.
14:19:31 <ais523> hmm, what if it was a single ability that said "draw two cards"
14:20:15 <b_jonas> ais523: 120.2
14:20:16 <ais523> also, Lantern of Insight is the card I said, not Chromatic Lantern :-)
14:21:07 <b_jonas> ah right, sorry. Not Chromatic Lantern, but either Lantern of Insight or Goblin Spy.
14:21:26 <b_jonas> (Goblin Spy controlled by me.)
14:21:55 <b_jonas> coppro: why which one?
14:22:05 <ais523> lantern of insight came to mind because it's actually part of a tier 2 modern deck
14:22:14 <ais523> cards that are played in major decks are easier for me to remember, probably for obvious reasons
14:22:57 <coppro> why would they be able to see the card
14:23:01 <coppro> oh lantern of insight
14:23:23 <ais523> under normal circumstances, lantern of insight means you see every card your opponents draw
14:23:26 <coppro> technically what happens is
14:23:30 <coppro> when you draw the first card
14:23:30 <ais523> so the question is, if they draw two at mana ability speed, what happens
14:23:31 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, there are like six cards that cause you to play with the top of your library revealed, but Lantern of Insight is the best because it doesn't have too many extra rules that complicate the matter, and it's a not too old not too expensive card (5DN uc).
14:23:38 <coppro> it goes to hand face down and the top card is revealed
14:23:43 <ais523> b_jonas: and the mill is very relevant
14:23:48 <coppro> and then the second one goes to hand and the next is revealed
14:23:55 <ais523> coppro: right, that's what I thought would happen
14:24:00 <coppro> since there's no rule preserving the face-down library card when you draw during casting
14:24:02 <ais523> so the card's face down but everyone knows what it actually is
14:24:08 <coppro> right
14:24:20 <coppro> the crib rule for chromatic sphere is imperfect, which sucks
14:24:33 <b_jonas> coppro: but the top card isn't revealed during a transaction (during while a spell or ability is being played) because of 401.6
14:25:04 <coppro> oh
14:25:09 <coppro> huh, I never knew about that
14:25:09 <coppro> still
14:25:23 <coppro> I would rule the cards are revealed
14:25:25 <b_jonas> The cards 401.{5,6} refer to aren't actually face down, are they? They're just hidden and have no characteristics.
14:25:30 <coppro> yeah
14:25:44 <coppro> those rules are cribs to deal with an utterly dysfunctional card
14:25:47 <b_jonas> "face down" has a rules meaning.
14:26:03 <coppro> the point is "you don't get hidden information from chromatic sphere during casting/activation"
14:26:44 <b_jonas> but it's more than one card. Chromatic Sphere isn't the only one, is it? and Chromatic Sphere isn't such a bad card actually, I like its design, it's just mistamplated, it should cause you to draw the card later as a trigger or something.
14:26:46 <coppro> huh
14:26:47 <coppro> http://canada.pch.gc.ca/eng/1445028439342
14:26:53 <coppro> b_jonas: it is the only one
14:26:56 <coppro> Chromatic Star is the fix
14:26:59 <ais523> b_jonas: see Chromatic Star
14:27:08 <b_jonas> Besides Lich's Mirror and Chromatic Sphere, what cards can cause you to draw a card?
14:27:09 <ais523> which is almost exactly Chromatic Sphere but with timing fixes to not be stupid
14:27:12 <ais523> b_jonas: selvala!
14:27:14 <b_jonas> yes, Chromatic Star is a fix.
14:27:18 <b_jonas> oh right, Selvala.
14:27:27 <ais523> I have been mentioning her repeatedly all conversation :-)
14:27:29 <b_jonas> well, Chromatic Star is actually also better
14:27:32 <zzo38> Right now I will sleep but I will later explain how my replacement for rule 717 will fix all of these things, without affecting what the cards do.
14:27:50 <b_jonas> because you still draw a card if it dies in some other way
14:27:58 <coppro> b_jonas: it's not possible to lose while casting a spell, though
14:28:11 <ais523> coppro: <ais523> here: I cast an expensive spell, filter a mana with chromatic sphere, the draw gets replaced by forbidden crypt and causes me to lose (empty graveyard), which gets replaced by lich's mirror, then I discard the resulting 7 cards to a skirge familiar that came back from under a banishing light (or that an opponent owns but I control), then I try to pay the remaining mana with an exotic orchard that came back from under a different
14:28:13 <ais523> banishing light, but in response the only opponent with color-producing lands concedes and now I'm one mana short
14:28:25 <ais523> coppro: it is, forbidden crypt triggering on chromatic sphere, we worked this out earlier
14:28:28 <ais523> took a while though
14:28:33 <coppro> oh, not counting the sphere I mean
14:28:58 <coppro> because, as discussed, that card is broken
14:29:05 <ais523> selvala irritates me, I could tell it was a nightmare the instant it was printed
14:29:08 <ais523> (also it's pretty recent)
14:29:29 <coppro> oh right, yeah
14:29:30 <coppro> screw that card
14:29:34 <ais523> like, just put a "play this ability only any time you could play an instant" on her, it won't hurt any of its intended uses and makes the corner cases much less cornery
14:29:44 <coppro> they don't want to actually put that on text though
14:29:50 <b_jonas> ah, Odyssey has a cycle of artifacts like Skycloud Egg which also draw a card in a mana ability
14:29:59 <ais523> but the self-quote above is a similarly screwy situation that b_jonas and I came up with earlier
14:30:12 <ais523> which AFAICT causes you to have to undo a shuffle of your library, and there's no sequencing/shortcutting tricks to get around it
14:30:43 <ais523> b_jonas: the modern deck that was based around chromatic sphere/star and mass artifact reanimation was called "eggs"
14:30:57 <b_jonas> ais523: there totally is. you just delay the physical shuffle for later as a shortcut.
14:30:58 <ais523> eventually some of its major pieces got banned because the deck was slowing down tournaments
14:31:12 <ais523> b_jonas: but you have to draw seven cards off lich's mirror then discard them
14:31:15 <ais523> after the shuffle
14:33:13 <b_jonas> coppro: there are actually at least two ways to lose without conceding while casting a spell: Chromatic Sphere + Forbidden Crypt, or Skyshroud Forest + Nefarious Lich.
14:33:26 <b_jonas> so it's two cards you should curse. but the lich is probably already quite cursed, being a lich.
14:34:05 <ais523> b_jonas: is mill delayed until state-based actions? or is that instant too?
14:34:11 <ais523> I think it's delayed but am not sure
14:34:13 <b_jonas> ais523: what mill?
14:34:22 <ais523> b_jonas: trying to draw from an empty library
14:34:26 <ais523> (colloquially, loss by milling)
14:34:29 <b_jonas> losing from drawing? that's delayed to sba too
14:34:42 <b_jonas> 104.3c
14:34:56 <ais523> what about winning from drawing with labotory maniac?
14:34:58 <b_jonas> and loss from poison counters is delayed too
14:35:09 <ais523> I can't remember how it's worded (nor how it's spelled, that was my fourth attempt and it still looks wrong)
14:35:17 <b_jonas> Laboratory Maniac? hmm
14:35:28 <b_jonas> "If you would draw a card while your library has no cards in it, you win the game instead."
14:35:29 <ais523> aha, "laboratory", that has rather more letters than I thought
14:35:31 <ais523> no wonder I couldn't spell it
14:35:33 <b_jonas> damn
14:35:33 <ais523> so replacement
14:35:44 <ais523> that should be instant then
14:35:50 <b_jonas> ok, then three ways
14:36:29 <b_jonas> And Laboratory Maniac might even be one that isn't already cursed by flavor, unlike the crypt and the lich.
14:39:49 <b_jonas> (But it's probably a mad scientist.)
14:42:20 <b_jonas> As for rules, can I have non-MTG rules nitpick questions too?
14:43:33 <b_jonas> In a C or C++ program, I call raise on a signal that isn't handled or ignored (as if SIG_DFL or as the process starts), isn't blocked, and causes the process to die (with or without coredump) or stop. Is it guaranteed that the function won't return (and the thread continue execution) before the program dies or stops? There might be other signals delivered at the same time, and the program may be multithreaded.
14:43:50 <b_jonas> s/delivered/pending/
14:45:04 <b_jonas> The OS needn't be Linux.
14:46:46 <int-e> http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/raise.html
14:47:07 <int-e> "If a signal handler is called, the raise() function shall not return until after the signal handler does."
14:47:12 <b_jonas> int-e: I looked at POSIX, it says that if the signal is _handled_, the handler will be executed before the function returns.
14:47:20 <b_jonas> But there's no handler installed in this case.
14:48:46 <int-e> I see.
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14:49:58 <b_jonas> But there might be some text about signals in general that specify this.
14:50:05 <b_jonas> eg. in http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/basedefs/signal.h.html
14:50:19 <b_jonas> or even in the C11 standard or something
14:50:33 <fizzie> For POSIX, you'll be wanting to look through 2.4 Signal Concepts in the General Information section of System Interfaces.
14:50:42 <fizzie> Though I didn't see anything obviously relevant there.
14:50:43 <b_jonas> (part of the behavior of signals is specified in C, part in POSIX, and part is OS-dependent)
14:51:27 <b_jonas> fizzie: 2.4 where? do you have a link?
14:51:42 <fizzie> http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/functions/V2_chap02.html#tag_15_04
14:52:34 <fizzie> (The "System Interfaces" volume is divided to "General Information" and "System Interfaces" sections, the latter of which is the function reference.)
14:54:21 <fizzie> It's slightly suspicious that the description for raise explicitly mentions only "if a signal handler is called", and not something more generally about the "action", but I haven't seen anything explicit about it yet.
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14:56:01 <fizzie> Although that part seems to be copied over from the C standard.
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14:57:03 <b_jonas> fizzie: doesn't the C standard also have SIG_DFL and SIGABRT which is fatal normally? even if it doesn't have signals that stop (suspend) the process.
14:57:47 <fizzie> It has a SIG_DFL, but the default handling seems to be very implementation-defined.
14:58:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, but it doesn't _require_ that SIGABRT has a signal handler, so the question still arises what happens if you raise(SIGABRT) and your program doesn't handle it.
14:59:08 <fizzie> Yes, I don't see any explicit requirement for that to terminate the process.
14:59:23 <b_jonas> that is, per C standard, the libc _could_ handle that signal and exit the process in some impl-defined way other than by signals, but it needn't do that.
15:00:18 <fizzie> A call to abort() does need to "[return an] implementation-defined form of the status /unsuccessful termination/ [] to the host environment by means of the function call raise(SIGABRT)", though.
15:00:21 <b_jonas> in any case, http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/toc.htm does say that the default action for SIGABRT terminates the process ("with additional actions", that is, a core dump) if you SIG_DFL it
15:00:49 <fizzie> Yes, POSIX is more explicit. But it doesn't seem they fully define whether raise may return before that.
15:02:35 <mroman> > 38 * 38
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15:02:37 <lambdabot> 1444
15:03:00 <fizzie> I was hoping for the default actions to be specified with something like "as if a signal handler that did X was installed", but that doesn't seem to be the case.
15:03:30 <fizzie> (Because in that case you could have relied on the bit in the description of raise.)
15:04:03 <int-e> odd
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15:05:02 <b_jonas> It seems that the POSIX description of sigsuspend is more explicit: at http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/functions/sigsuspend.html it seems to say that it won't return if the signal it lets through terminates the process,
15:09:10 <b_jonas> I don't want to do complicated things with signals, but I would like to trust raise to not return in those sane circumstances.
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15:30:08 <b_jonas> In M:tG, what is the cycle of not very rare artifacts in some pre-modern set that produce or color three colors of mana?
15:30:21 <b_jonas> And have illustrations of some sort of flat disk with some design on them.
15:30:43 <ais523> b_jonas: three-color artifacts are IIRC borderposts
15:30:44 <b_jonas> I don't know what exact set they are, or what mechanic they do exactly.
15:30:57 <ais523> wait no
15:31:05 <ais523> those are two-colour
15:31:08 <b_jonas> ais523: the obelisks are in Alara. these are older
15:31:12 <ais523> but it's got to be either alara block or khans block
15:31:18 <b_jonas> eg. Obelisk of Esper
15:31:19 <ais523> oh, pre-modern
15:31:38 <ais523> there's a cycle of lands in homelands that produce three colours
15:31:41 <ais523> they are almost incomprehensibly bad
15:31:46 <b_jonas> definitely not land
15:31:51 <b_jonas> they're artifactgs
15:31:54 <b_jonas> non-creature artifacts
15:32:58 <b_jonas> I think I might be misremembering something.
15:33:56 <ais523> b_jonas: Rith's Attendant?
15:34:30 <b_jonas> ais523: no, the illustration at least definitely shows some inanimate abstract thingies
15:34:35 <b_jonas> possibly disks
15:34:56 <b_jonas> the illustration is what I remember the most, the mechanics are probably wrong
15:35:10 <ais523> it's the only pre-modern artifact with {R},{G},{W} in its rules text but not {U} or {B}
15:35:44 <b_jonas> hmm... maybe they produce only two colors of mana, or don't produce mana, or something
15:35:48 <b_jonas> I'll continue searching
15:40:47 <b_jonas> ah, I found it! and my description was wrong in multiple places
15:41:46 <b_jonas> or at least I might have found it. the Talisman of Progress cycle in Mirrodin. modern, and produces two colors.
15:41:55 <b_jonas> I might be conflating different cards.
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15:42:29 <b_jonas> These are definitely disk-shaped artifacts at least.
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15:47:29 <b_jonas> Not surprisingly, the Invasion block has lots of different colored mana producers.
15:48:34 <b_jonas> Wow, there's Multani's Harmony, which is like Paradise Mantle but an aura for {G}
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16:12:24 <Taneb> Helping someone learn formal languages and automata
16:13:28 <vanila> cool
16:15:01 <Taneb> I need to figure out how to explain the pumping lemma for regular languages
16:15:10 <vanila> ill show you how to explain pumping lemma
16:15:15 <vanila> just giv eme a sec to draw it
16:15:53 <Taneb> I've given him some problems to work on converting between regular languages and FSAs
16:16:11 <Taneb> So you've got some time
16:17:17 <vanila> http://i.imgur.com/sddYwEt.png
16:17:51 <haavard> zzo38: I think I solved your first puzzle, but I feel like it's wrong
16:17:58 <Taneb> Thanks
16:18:36 <b_jonas> try a book?
16:19:02 <Taneb> His exam is in less than two hours
16:19:07 <b_jonas> ouch
16:19:16 <b_jonas> um, an online book or something_
16:19:23 <b_jonas> I don't know what good books are there for this
16:19:24 <Taneb> Actually, I have a book
16:19:27 <Taneb> Just it's at home
16:19:29 <Taneb> And I'm not
16:20:27 <b_jonas> Does he already know that regular languages can be defined with *nondeterministic* finite automata without null moves?
16:20:37 <b_jonas> as opposed to just deterministic ones?
16:20:46 <b_jonas> or maybe it's the opposite way?
16:20:47 <b_jonas> I dunno
16:20:51 <b_jonas> I don't know how this works
16:20:53 <Taneb> I think so
16:21:05 <Taneb> I don't know how hard the questions I've given him are
16:21:40 <vanila> I put too many dots :|
16:21:53 <vanila> well it doesn't matter
16:23:29 <vanila> it would be kind to teach derivatives
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16:54:52 <b_jonas> `wisdom
16:54:54 <b_jonas> `dateu
16:55:19 <HackEgo> 2016-01-06 16:54:58.117220000+00:00
16:55:23 <HackEgo> grue/grue is the colour of the trees and the ocean
16:55:36 <b_jonas> `? bleen
16:55:38 <HackEgo> bleen? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
16:55:59 <b_jonas> `learn bleen is the color of the ocean and the trees
16:56:04 <HackEgo> Learned 'bleen': bleen is the color of the ocean and the trees
17:04:03 <int-e> hmm, bleen... vexxar?
17:06:55 <quintopia> Taneb: this is less useful for trivia, as it is much more widely known.
17:07:05 <quintopia> (referring to the universal number)
17:07:56 <int-e> `? grey
17:07:58 <HackEgo> grey? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
17:07:59 <int-e> `? gray
17:08:00 <HackEgo> gray? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
17:08:30 <Taneb> Ugh
17:08:40 <Taneb> This syllabus calls what I call "regular languages" "rational"
17:08:42 <int-e> . o O ( Grey is a common misspelling of gray. / Gray is a common misspelling of grey. )
17:09:11 <Taneb> Put a Taneb invented it in Grey and a Taneb did not invent it in Gray
17:09:13 <int-e> I've seen that before (rational languages)
17:09:44 <int-e> But I don't know where that terminology comes from
17:10:33 <int-e> Hmm. "Taneb disinvented it."
17:11:00 <int-e> `? deniability
17:11:01 <HackEgo> deniability? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
17:11:16 <int-e> `learn Deniability was not invented by Taneb.
17:11:20 <HackEgo> Learned 'deniability': Deniability was not invented by Taneb.
17:11:43 <Taneb> Plausible.
17:12:44 <Taneb> Ah
17:12:55 <Taneb> I know roughly half of the exam this guy is sitting
17:13:00 <Taneb> In 48 minutes
17:13:32 <int-e> uh good luck
17:14:26 <Taneb> What does it mean for a monoid to recognize a language
17:14:39 <vanila> a monoid huh
17:14:49 <vanila> maybe it acts on a set of states
17:15:47 <quintopia> is "Taneb invented it" now a synonym for "Taneb approves it"?
17:16:19 <Taneb> quintopia: I don't think so
17:16:39 <quintopia> Taneb: are there any numbers in reverse alphabetical order besides "one"
17:16:52 <Taneb> quintopia: I don't think so but couldn't say for sure
17:18:47 <vanila> it is recognized by some finite monoid, meaning it is the preimage of a subset of a finite monoid under a homomorphism from the free monoid on its alphabet[note 7]
17:19:03 <vanila> that's equiv to regular language? neat
17:19:23 <Taneb> Said friend seems to have disappeared while attempting to refill his water
17:19:24 <vanila> is anyone a wikipedia editorL
17:19:24 <vanila> ?
17:24:54 <MDude> I haven't edited WIkipedia in a few years.
17:25:57 <vanila> feel like making an edit ??
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17:31:30 <Phantom_Hoover> vanila, can you not make the edit
17:31:59 <vanila> i dont have an account
17:33:23 <Phantom_Hoover> you don't need an account unless they've really clamped down on anonymous editing in the last few years
17:34:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tonoco]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46092&oldid=46077 * Keymaker * (+4) Fixed truth-machine spelling and linked it to its page.
17:51:01 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: actually there's a new level of protection that's lower than semiprotection that's used on articles that anonymous people keep screwing up
17:51:10 <ais523> so it's a bit less clamped down than it used to be
17:51:26 -!- p34k has joined.
17:51:28 <ais523> it delays showing the edits to other anons until someone with perms manually checks them
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17:56:58 <Phantom_Hoover> ah, is that what revisionapprove turned into?
17:57:11 <ais523> yep
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18:03:15 <quintopia> ais523: can registered users see them?
18:04:00 <ais523> quintopia: yes, actually anyone can by clicking a link
18:04:10 <ais523> just it's default to show most recent for registered, and most recent approved for anons
18:04:27 <quintopia> ah
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19:46:36 <Taneb> ais523 mentioned tiny leaders being solved earlier, anyone have a source
19:47:33 <Taneb> I...
19:47:42 <Taneb> I just heard someone say "monoids are easy"
19:47:46 <Taneb> Outside the context of Haskell
19:48:52 <shachaf> They're not as easy as you might think.
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20:34:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Fizzie]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46093&oldid=40332 * Fizzie * (+0) Post-upgrade edit test for 1.26.2.
20:35:22 <fizzie> There was some transient weirdness about logging in and session storage, but it seems to have maybe cleared up on its own.
20:35:29 <fizzie> @tell ais523 Just as a heads-up, updated esolangs.org to MediaWiki 1.26.2, in case you want to have a look, see if I broke something.
20:35:29 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
20:35:32 <fizzie> @tell oerjan Just as a heads-up, updated esolangs.org to MediaWiki 1.26.2, in case you want to have a look, see if I broke something.
20:35:32 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
20:36:51 <fizzie> I seem to have broken at least the images for the bottom-right corner CC0 and MediaWiki links.
20:42:44 <int-e> devious
20:43:06 <fizzie> They seem to have gone to /w/resources which wasn't part of the nginx configuration.
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20:53:18 <b_jonas> Hello people.
20:59:21 <vanila> hi
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21:07:08 <b_jonas> “<Taneb> This syllabus calls what I call "regular languages" "rational"” -- that terminology actually makes sense, and I can explain why, although it's a bit bad since "rational" is a VERY overused word.
21:08:23 <vanila> i would like to know
21:08:29 <vanila> also b_jonas how about adding to wikipedia?
21:08:35 <b_jonas> Some textbooks introduce regular languages in such a way that they consider the set of languages (over a fixed alphabet) a semiring with unit,
21:09:09 <vanila> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_language#Equivalent_formalisms -- they don't mention a language is regular iff it has finitely many derivatives. Someone please add this!
21:09:32 <b_jonas> where the addition is the union of two languages, and the multiplication is elementwise concatenation. (The zero is the empty language, the unit is the language containing only the empty string, often notated by epsilon.)
21:09:53 <vanila> omg that's beautiful!!
21:09:54 <b_jonas> It is not hard to verify that this satisfies the axioms of semirings.
21:09:57 <vanila> i see what you mean
21:10:06 <b_jonas> There is a use for this description,
21:10:16 <vanila> would chomsky context free languages be algebraic?
21:11:12 <b_jonas> namely it is used to prove in an understandible way the nontrivial theorem that every language defined by a nondetrministic finite automaton (with null states) can also be defined by a regular expression (an expression made of finite sets, monoid operations, and the star closure).
21:12:12 <b_jonas> You prove this in a constructive (but exponential time) way: from the finite automaton, you write a left regular BNF form, which formally looks like a set of "linear" equations in this monoid,
21:12:40 <b_jonas> where there is a variable for each state of the automaton, which has the value of the language accepted if starting from that state,
21:13:02 <b_jonas> and the equations are originally derived from the translation rules and final states.
21:13:45 <b_jonas> Then you transform these linear equations in a way somewhat similar to gaussian elimination.
21:14:35 <b_jonas> Namely, you keep the equations of a form where the left side is always a variable, and the right side is a regular expression with variables in them,
21:15:17 <b_jonas> then if an equation contains the lhs variable inside the rhs, then you transform this in a certain way which introduces the star closure,
21:15:40 <b_jonas> and if the equation does not contain the lhs variable inside the rhs, then you eliminate that equation and variable by substituting it everywhere else.
21:16:18 <b_jonas> I have heared this description, although not the terminology "rational language", but it makes total sense.
21:16:56 <b_jonas> However, I would not recomment "rational language" as a name, because "rational" is overloaded, and "regular language" or "Chomsky L0 language" are both well known terms that mean this.
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21:19:43 <b_jonas> Although this linear equation formalism isn't really necessary for the proof, it helps understanding. I don't know how well it's known.
21:19:52 <b_jonas> (And in case it's not clear, this is a commutative semiring.)
21:24:11 <b_jonas> Taneb: did you succeed explaining?
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21:32:27 <fizzie> Looked up "sgsdgdfsfsh.org" at a domain registration place (random mashing just to see their prices), and they intelligently suggested I might be interested in "sgsdecigramdfsfsh.com" instead.
21:35:50 <b_jonas> heh
21:36:59 <FireFly> Well, are you?
21:37:14 <fizzie> Not really. I mean, decigrams.
21:37:17 <fizzie> Incidentally, I thought WHOIS privacy protection things were predominantly a standard service, but it seems they quite often now are priced separately instead.
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21:41:00 <b_jonas> wait, *decigram*? that's not even a real used unit of measurement, is it? that is, the rules that restrict the use of the centi, deci, deka, hecto forbid it, don't they?
21:41:04 <b_jonas> let me look that up
21:41:21 <b_jonas> I don't know all of those rules by heart.
21:41:36 <b_jonas> s/deka/deca/ in English apparently
21:43:12 <b_jonas> Hmm, where do I find those rules?
21:47:14 <FireFly> I've never seen it used before I think, but I don't know if it's actually forbidden
21:48:27 <b_jonas> FireFly: forbidden by SI, as in, much of the metric units and prefixes were in use somewhat before SI, but SI restricts them a bit more, apart from restricting the use of non-metric units.
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22:30:07 <onetwothree4life> Holy crap I am here.
22:30:16 <Taneb> Hi
22:30:22 <onetwothree4life> Hello.
22:30:24 <onetwothree4life> One time I had two dogs that got hit by three cars for life.
22:30:36 <Taneb> `welcome onetwothree4life
22:30:38 <onetwothree4life> How was your life?
22:30:50 <onetwothree4life> Thankyou Taneb
22:31:00 <onetwothree4life> How was your life?
22:31:05 <HackEgo> onetwothree4life: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
22:31:16 <onetwothree4life> Wow.
22:31:20 <onetwothree4life> I have arrived.
22:31:35 <int-e> @uptime
22:31:36 <lambdabot> uptime: 25m 8s, longest uptime: 1m 10d 23h 44m 29s
22:31:37 <int-e> pity
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22:31:48 <b_jonas> Taneb: hi. did the cs teaching work?
22:32:01 <Taneb> b_jonas: to some extent
22:32:20 <Taneb> Someone else came along and explained the bits to him that I didn't know
22:32:29 <Taneb> And the exam is at 9 tomorrow, not 6 tonight
22:33:47 <b_jonas> I see.
22:35:42 <vanila> onetwothree4life hi
22:39:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, hmm i thought i was going to york in february but turns out it's leeds
22:39:17 <Taneb> Hmm, it's nearby
22:39:23 <Taneb> Why are you venturing my way?
22:39:33 <Phantom_Hoover> underwater hockey tournament
22:40:36 <Taneb> Ahaha!
22:40:38 <Taneb> How long for?
22:42:20 <fizzie> Is that at all like Blitzball?
22:42:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, saturday, probably leaving early sunday afternoon
22:43:00 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, no b/c giant floating balls of water don't exist irl
22:43:28 <fizzie> It could be a non-floating half-sphere, and be half like blitzball.
22:45:30 <Phantom_Hoover> anyway no, you use a sinking lead puck in a flat pool
22:45:35 <Phantom_Hoover> well, flat in theory
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22:45:45 <Phantom_Hoover> in practice it's like playing football on a hill
22:46:23 <fizzie> Are you completely submerged, or only just partially?
22:46:36 <Phantom_Hoover> you play with a snorkel, so both
22:46:53 <fizzie> The Final Fantasy wikia's blitzball page linked me to Underwater Rugby.
22:47:07 <Phantom_Hoover> we play that when we're sick of underwater hockey
22:49:12 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: what's the context? are you a spectator, a player, or a referee/umpire?
22:49:24 <b_jonas> Or perhaps a coach.
22:49:35 <Phantom_Hoover> a player
22:49:57 <Phantom_Hoover> it's not a real sport so we don't have proper referees, just pedantic players with a special hat
22:50:02 <b_jonas> This is on which continent? I know there's at least one underwater hockey club in Hungary, but it's not a very popular sport.
22:50:15 <Phantom_Hoover> and you can't really see what's going on because of all the water so there are no spectators
22:50:23 <Phantom_Hoover> b_jonas, the UK
22:50:33 <Phantom_Hoover> it's also apparently very big in new zealand
22:50:41 <b_jonas> by "not a real sport", do you mean you play casually, not in a very competitive way, just like how many people play casual football without professional referees?
22:50:52 <b_jonas> rather than playing in tournaments that is.
22:50:55 <Taneb> I could quite easily come and watch if such a thing were possible
22:51:59 <b_jonas> "you can't really see what's going on because of all the water so there are no spectators" -- probably. but some people watch surprisingly weird sports that I would think aren't worth to watch, especially if they are friends or family with players.
22:52:28 <Phantom_Hoover> well yeah, you do get friends and family along
22:52:35 <Phantom_Hoover> though normally they get roped into being refs too
22:52:52 <b_jonas> it's only natural that some parents are interested since adolescent children play the sport too
22:54:46 <zzo38> haavard: Are you on? Then you can reply to me about the puzzles?
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22:57:25 <Phantom_Hoover> b_jonas, ill have you know that were respectable adults thank you very much
22:57:51 <zzo38> Why have the skins other than Vector been deleted from esolang wiki?
22:58:11 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: ok
22:58:30 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, b/c the other ones look like shit?
22:58:30 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: but even if you're respectable adults, some of you might have sons practicing underwater hockey
22:58:51 <Phantom_Hoover> b_jonas, here now that's a very pessimistic view of our teen pregnancy rates
22:58:54 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: by the way, where does your nick come from? is there a public reason?
22:59:07 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought it was funny when i was ~12 i think
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23:03:27 <int-e> `? Phantom_Hoover
23:03:37 <HackEgo> Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman, hatheist, and completely out of the loop.
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23:04:59 <boily> one day, I'll have a child. I hope he can swim better than me.
23:06:23 -!- puck1pedia has changed nick to puckipedia.
23:06:39 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: I see
23:07:06 <fizzie> @tell zzo38 It was a semi-unintentional side effect of updating to a new MediaWiki version -- it doesn't enable all installed skins by default (like the old version did), and I only just quick-fixed it by re-enabling the standard one. I will look into enabling the others -- I was wondering whether some of our users were actually using them.
23:07:06 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:09:25 <b_jonas> I guess the main reason why underwater hockey isn't very popular here as a casual sport is that it needs a suitable swimming pool and there's few of those.
23:09:33 <b_jonas> So it would be expensive.
23:10:03 <b_jonas> More so than water polo, which is popular, but might have more choice in swimming pools.
23:10:49 <b_jonas> Obviously the other part why it's not popular is that it's not suitable as a spectator sport and so few people know about it.
23:11:31 <Phantom_Hoover> it's not that expensive, at least in the club i play at
23:11:42 <Phantom_Hoover> general sports membership + £6
23:12:03 <fizzie> Seems that the user_properties table has 2 instances of 'cologneblue', 4 instances of 'modern', 4 instances of 'monobook', 1 instance of 'simple' and 11 instances of 'standard'. Only CologneBlue, Modern, MonoBook and Vector seem to be part of the installation now.
23:12:15 <Phantom_Hoover> i think it's mostly obscure because it was invented by a diving club in the 50s and has spread from there
23:12:34 <b_jonas> um, what does "general sports membership" mean, GBP 6 per what (month person, week person, occasion person), and traveling to the swimming pool is part of the cost.
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23:12:58 <Phantom_Hoover> £6 buys you club membership for a year, you can play with only that
23:13:34 <oerjan> @messages-
23:13:34 <lambdabot> fizzie said 2h 38m 2s ago: Just as a heads-up, updated esolangs.org to MediaWiki 1.26.2, in case you want to have a look, see if I broke something.
23:13:45 <Phantom_Hoover> general sports membership means buying access to the university's sports clubs, which is an extortionate £90 or so but is also necessary to do the mainstream sports
23:14:32 <b_jonas> Even water polo isn't cheap, since it needs reserving some lanes in a swimming pool of length at least 25 m, and there aren't many such swimming pools available, since it's actually very expensive to maintain one.
23:15:19 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: I see. Is there an additional requirement of some relation with the university to that? And what else does that membership buy you? And is it GBP 90 per person year?
23:16:06 <b_jonas> (quickly checking, 1 GBP = 430 HUF approx currently)
23:17:03 <Phantom_Hoover> it's £96/year basically but if you want to do water polo or football or any other sport that £90 is already necessary
23:17:10 <fizzie> @tell zzo38 I have re-enabled the three other ones that were still bundled as part of the 1.26 installation (Cologne Blue, Modern, MonoBook). I believe the other two skins that people had historically used (standard, simple) had already been removed in 1.22, the previous version.
23:17:10 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:17:18 <Phantom_Hoover> for local clubs it's genrally £4 a night
23:17:35 <b_jonas> That would result in 8 GBP per month person in average, which seems cheap for a swimming pool access if you go regularly throughout the whole year.
23:18:15 <b_jonas> I pay more than that for swimming, and most of that cost is actually for the swimming pool access.
23:19:09 <b_jonas> What are the requirements for the swimming pool for underwater hockey? Can you practice in a pool with a slanted floor? Floor slanted in half of the pool? Size and depth limits?
23:19:29 <b_jonas> For regular casual practice that is, not for a match.
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23:23:12 <oerjan> fizzie: the Recent Changes preferences changed a bit, and when i fixed that the Save button strangely took me from https to http, telling me i had to log in (i was already logged in on https).
23:23:19 <Phantom_Hoover> b_jonas, yeah, you just work around slopes in the pool
23:24:07 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: do you need an entire swimming pool, or are two or three lanes in a sloped pool enough?
23:24:08 <fizzie> oerjan: I had some logged-in/not-logged-in weirdness initially too. Don't think I remembered to check whether that was due to http/https differences.
23:24:25 <oerjan> somehow jumping back and forth in history then got me logged in on http too
23:24:36 <oerjan> without afair giving the password.
23:24:46 <fizzie> I'm wondering if it's something to do with the memcache stuff.
23:24:56 <Phantom_Hoover> b_jonas, depends, lanes are normally too narrow though
23:25:29 <Phantom_Hoover> you can play widthways quite easily though
23:25:40 <fizzie> Hmm. We've got wgServer set to "http://esolangs.org" -- I think that should be just "//esolangs.org", really.
23:25:42 <oerjan> fizzie: i fact since i became admin i've been making a point of _not_ being logged in on just http, so i don't really want this...
23:25:48 <fizzie> At least as far as I can tell from https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgServer
23:26:09 <b_jonas> Sure, but it's hard to reserve part of a public swimming pool widthwise, whereas it's easy to reserve two or three lanes. Water polo practices are often done in lanes here.
23:26:22 <b_jonas> Especially so in big swimming pools.
23:27:06 <fizzie> oerjan: I tried setting it to the protocol-agnostic thing. Hopefully that should mean links should stay in the scheme you were on.
23:27:56 <fizzie> (Also set $wgCanonicalServer to https:// -- the documentation says it'll use that for links in things like emails.)
23:29:39 <fizzie> I think that'll have a side effect of switching to https:// links in the on-channel edit notifications.
23:31:53 <oerjan> good, as i've been editing that manually
23:32:15 <fizzie> Oh.
23:32:35 <fizzie> No wonder this felt familiar: I had in fact done exactly the same change before.
23:32:48 <fizzie> (Except with $wgCanonicalServer set to http:// instead.)
23:33:09 <fizzie> Turns out I fixed it on the server, but not in the canonical copy of the configuration where I take it from when updating.
23:33:21 <oerjan> heh
23:34:57 <fizzie> I also seem to have managed to rollback the captcha questions (from the single 0x29A to the old, larger set) due to the same sort of thing.
23:35:16 <fizzie> Wonder if I should redo that change as well, it must've been changed for a reason.
23:36:08 <oerjan> fizzie: also most links did seem to already stay in the same scheme, it was just the Save button that behaved weirdly.
23:37:30 <Phantom_Hoover> b_jonas, the clubs i've been at have just booked the entire pool very late in the evenin
23:37:31 <Phantom_Hoover> *g
23:38:08 <oerjan> fizzie: afair we changed the captcha to just one because it was easier to change when the spambots managed to get one, and seemed just as effective...
23:38:29 <fizzie> Well, I restored it back to the 0x29A it most recently had been.
23:38:51 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: yes, that works for smaller or worse pools
23:38:58 <oerjan> i did see a spammer recently. haven't checked the actual abuse log.
23:39:01 <fizzie> And yes; most in-page links probably would have worked if they are just normal relative ones, I assume it just needs a fully qualified URL for some more special things.
23:39:11 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: what size of pools? 20, 30, 33, 50 meter?
23:39:15 <b_jonas> um,
23:39:20 <b_jonas> 20, 25, 30, 33, 50 meters
23:39:31 <b_jonas> (25 meter is actually the most common length)
23:39:46 <Phantom_Hoover> varies but the local club in coventry has a 50m pool
23:39:54 <b_jonas> nice
23:40:13 <b_jonas> Indoor or outdoor? Can you even do underwater hockey in an outdoor pool?
23:40:19 <Phantom_Hoover> that's split into 2 though, so ~25m would be a typical length
23:40:35 <b_jonas> Does underwater hockey need good lighting (lamps) for the pool?
23:40:36 <oerjan> doesn't look like any spambots triggered the filters recently.
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23:40:57 <Phantom_Hoover> if the bottom's flat and you can see then outdoors would be fine, i'm sure
23:41:07 <Phantom_Hoover> there are not many outdoor pools in the uk though
23:41:33 <oerjan> the last three users to get hits were regulars
23:41:55 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: right, warm water in pools is somewhat of a special advantage here
23:42:24 <b_jonas> as in, there are lots of natural warm water springs, and as a result, many swimming pools have warm water, whereas I hear this isn't true in most other locations
23:47:12 <oerjan> that recent spammer would not have been got by any filter, anyway, it was a single edit that looked plausible except that the link domain was _slightly_ fishy so i visited it.
23:47:42 <oerjan> https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=CAT&diff=prev&oldid=46055
23:48:19 <b_jonas> I understand that in a lot of other countries, many children swim in warm neoprene suits, whereas that's rare here.
23:48:50 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah you'd generally wear a wetsuit to swim outdoors here
23:48:58 <Phantom_Hoover> for diving most people wear drysuits
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