←2016-04-20 2016-04-21 2016-04-22→ ↑2016 ↑all
00:01:25 <int-e> wait it's not even mine... mumble...
00:01:44 <oerjan> then you must make one </zzo38>
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00:13:04 <int-e> ah, but this one is mine at least: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/kayak/src/sort3.kayak
00:14:36 <int-e> Or perhaps more usefully, http://int-e.eu/~bf3/eso/mergesort.kayak
00:16:15 <Taneb> One thing that I find weird is there was a time when people didn't know about things like mergesort and quicksort
00:16:22 <Taneb> I've *met* the person who invented quicksort
00:17:10 <oerjan> did you grovel properly twh
00:19:13 <FireFly> Taneb: how did they invent it?
00:19:22 <FireFly> did they sit down one day and decide to write a better sort algorithm?
00:19:35 <FireFly> Hm, Hoare
00:19:47 <oerjan> a hoary algorithm
00:19:55 <FireFly> Very
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00:21:50 <int-e> oh back then oerjan went by "Orjan"
00:22:13 <oerjan> i did?
00:22:32 <int-e> well, in one place (real name that went with the email address)
00:22:47 <oerjan> my institute mail address, probably
00:23:08 <int-e> the signature reads =D8rjan (less doesn't do mime decoding ;-)
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00:24:14 <Taneb> FireFly, apparently he was working somewhere and asked "Could you use shellsort to sort these?" to which he said "I bet you a tenner I can do it quicker"
00:24:17 <Taneb> And invented quicksort
00:24:54 <Taneb> (this story has two errors in it)
00:24:57 <FireFly> int-e: probbly Örjan then?
00:25:00 <Taneb> (it was a sixpence bet)
00:25:00 <oerjan> hm or maybe i just had set my realname that way. charsets were brittle back then.
00:25:10 <oerjan> FireFly: don't be ridiculous.
00:25:10 <Taneb> (and he had alrady invented it, while a visiting student in Moscow)
00:25:38 <int-e> FireFly: no, 0xD8 is Ø
00:25:42 <FireFly> Er, right
00:25:45 <FireFly> I meant that
00:25:48 <Phantom_Hoover> quicksort was invented when it was noted that nobody had yet invented a sorting algorithm that was quick
00:25:51 <Phantom_Hoover> the rest is history
00:25:53 * FireFly must be tired
00:25:56 <Taneb> Œrjan
00:26:22 <FireFly> Everyone knows oe is the ASCIIfication of ö though :p
00:26:43 <FireFly> I don't know which of Taneb's and Phantom_Hoover's stories to believe
00:26:56 <Taneb> FireFly, they don't actually contradict each other
00:26:57 <Phantom_Hoover> mine was a lie
00:27:10 <FireFly> Taneb: true
00:27:21 <FireFly> Phantom_Hoover: why would you do that
00:27:28 <Phantom_Hoover> quicksort isn't so named because it's quick at all; after all, it's O(n^2) in the worst case!
00:27:42 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: I don't want to hear your explanation of bucket sort--it's bound to be gross.
00:27:52 <oerjan> now i kind of want to.
00:28:04 <Phantom_Hoover> its name in fact comes from the idiom 'to cut to the quick', a reference to its pivot algorithm
00:29:20 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I thought it was because Tony Hoare was drinking a Nesquik when he authored the algorithm
00:29:57 <Taneb> Anyway, I have to go
00:30:02 <Taneb> I have a bed that needs sleeping in
00:30:51 <Phantom_Hoover> i understand that people can be hired to do that for you
00:30:56 <oerjan> . o O ( what will happen to the bed if not )
00:32:06 <FireFly> Maybe the bed is lonely
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00:44:18 <oerjan> * hppavilion[1] is Judge, Jury, and Instruction Execution Unit <-- . o O ( a CPU based on montesquieu principles )
00:44:51 <prooftechnique> oerjan: Wasn't that the PDP-11?
00:45:07 <oerjan> i don't know?
00:45:36 <prooftechnique> *in the
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00:48:36 <picobit> ahh, good ol' PDP-11.
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01:06:49 <hppavilion[1]> Big-Λ notation is my favorite notation.
01:11:17 <zzo38> Which is doing what?
01:12:19 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Not sure yet. Probably it curries them together
01:13:27 <hppavilion[1]> So $\LAM{\{\lambda x.x, \lambda x.\lambda y.x, \lambda x.\lambda y.y\}} is...
01:13:28 <hppavilion[1]> Hm...
01:13:36 <hppavilion[1]> OK, I'm just bullshitting, it turns out.
01:14:22 <hppavilion[1]> I'm as surprised as you guys
01:30:28 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the one use of big lambdas i remember is in System F, where it denotes a type-level lambda
01:30:41 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Thank you
01:32:03 <oerjan> so e.g. id = \Lambda t. lambda x : t. x is the polymorphic id
01:32:19 <oerjan> * \lambda
01:32:33 <oerjan> or thereabouts
01:33:20 <hppavilion[1]> [http://www.tutorialspoint.com/artificial_intelligence/artificial_intelligence_overview.htm] Artificial Intelligence is a way of making a computer, a computer-controlled robot, or a software think intelligently, in the similar manner the intelligent humans think.
01:33:24 <hppavilion[1]> "The intelligent humans"
01:33:38 <hppavilion[1]> I think that Tutorialspoint may have produced a strong AI
01:33:45 <oerjan> oh that's the first example in wikipedia's article on System F. notation a bit different though.
01:34:02 <shachaf> \LAmbda k. \Lambda t : k. \lambda x : t. ...
01:34:13 <shachaf> this is why there are seven levels in the hierarchy
01:34:55 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Why?
01:35:07 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Shouldn't there be 64 levels?
01:35:22 <hppavilion[1]> :P
01:36:20 <fowl> /j #ruby
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01:37:51 <hppavilion[1]> fowl: ?
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01:38:20 <fowl> hppavilion[1]: I think there was a space in the buffer
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01:38:49 <hppavilion[1]> fowl: Ah
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01:43:43 <oerjan> FireFly: the danger of asking in #canaima-social is that we might trigger some canaima users to come here for the right purpose... and then we cannot ban it...
01:43:59 <FireFly> Good point
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01:46:19 <oerjan> * hppavilion[1] is learning him a haskell under the promise of it bringing about great good <-- *MWAHAHAHA* i mean, exactly!
01:47:26 <oerjan> there is some blog post which claims LYAH isn't actually that pedagogical, though, and suggests a different path.
01:47:41 <oerjan> (based on some online courses iiuc)
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01:50:31 <shachaf> if it's the post i'm thinking of, i don't recommend that advice too much
01:50:37 <shachaf> but maybe it happens to be correct
01:51:17 <oerjan> one of the courses is called FPsomenumbers iirc
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02:06:28 * hppavilion[1] walks in wearing his swatting shield
02:06:32 <hppavilion[1]> "Full-stack web developer" is a stupid concept
02:06:56 <hppavilion[1]> By the computer-scientific definition of a stack, it holds infinite data, and thus cannot be full.
02:07:40 <picobit> I forgot to laugh.
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02:18:09 * oerjan whacks hppavilion[1] with the saucepan ===\__/
02:18:43 * hppavilion[1] tries to deflect, but he is equipped only for swat-proofing
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03:23:11 <FireFly> Well another channel that does not start with 'es' just had someone looking for #canaima-social join
03:23:30 <FireFly> So I think the theory that the 'es' is the crux of the problem is disproved
03:27:20 <oerjan> ic
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03:28:46 <oerjan> but it's not _every_ channel. never seen any canaimas joining ##nomic.
03:29:16 <FireFly> Mysterious
03:29:34 <FireFly> Well, I don't know what would make #esoteric and #dolphin-emu similar
03:29:47 <FireFly> Except maybe that both are moderately large and not secret?
03:34:49 <oerjan> is anyone else in channels seeing many canaimans (or, if you don't notice the username/domain, people inexplicably speaking spanish)
03:37:03 <oerjan> wild option: it's all just a single troll faking this
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04:07:35 <picobit> well.
04:09:52 <zzo38> Well!???
04:15:47 <coppro> so it turns out that 200 kilofurlongs per fortnight is a reasonable highway driving speed in canada
04:16:19 <picobit> this program to add 1 and 2, print the result, compare it to 1, if 1 is less than 3, print 3, else, print 0.
04:16:30 <picobit> takes up 160 bytes.
04:18:05 <picobit> that's not -too- bad.
04:18:46 <picobit> but it's lame.
04:19:38 <zzo38> coppro: What highway? Different highways will often have different speeds
04:21:42 <oerjan> `frink 200 200 kilofurlongs per fortnight => km/h
04:21:45 <oerjan> oops
04:21:54 <oerjan> `frink 200 kilofurlongs per fortnight => km/h
04:22:57 <HackEgo> No output.
04:22:57 <HackEgo> No output.
04:23:08 <oerjan> `frink 200 kilofurlongs / fortnight => km/h
04:23:08 <picobit> oerjan: it's about 1km/hr.
04:23:15 <picobit> 1.19km/hr
04:23:26 <oerjan> wtf is with HackEgo
04:23:44 <oerjan> fizzie: :(
04:23:49 <HackEgo> No output.
04:23:54 <coppro> eh what?
04:24:08 <picobit> 200 kilofurlongs is around 402 kilometers, one fortnight is 336 hours.
04:24:16 <coppro> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=200+kilofurlongs+per+fortnight+in+km%2Fh
04:24:25 <oerjan> `echo hi
04:24:26 <HackEgo> hi
04:24:29 <picobit> do out the math.
04:24:32 <oerjan> `frink 200 kilofurlongs / fortnight => km/h
04:24:49 <oerjan> am i doing something wrong
04:25:05 <HackEgo> No output.
04:25:06 <oerjan> or is frink beyond HackEgo's resources
04:25:13 <oerjan> `frink 2*2
04:25:30 <picobit> shit, I fucked up a couple decimal places lmao.
04:25:40 <oerjan> `file bin/frink
04:25:53 <HackEgo> No output.
04:25:53 <HackEgo> bin/frink: POSIX shell script, ASCII text executable
04:26:13 <oerjan> did someone break frink
04:26:33 <oerjan> `url bin/frink
04:26:35 <picobit> what's frink?
04:26:36 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/frink
04:26:46 <oerjan> picobit: a programming language with unit conversions
04:26:58 <picobit> nice.
04:27:02 <picobit> useful.
04:27:24 <oerjan> `file lib/frink
04:27:27 <HackEgo> lib/frink: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.15, BuildID[sha1]=0x3d3ad786ec6233455da8a3371b38b238b692f3e1, not stripped
04:27:32 <oerjan> well it used to be when it worked
04:27:55 <oerjan> it is possible i have just forgot the syntax
04:28:27 <picobit> mayhaps.
04:28:45 <oerjan> `frink 2 m/s => km/h
04:29:07 <oerjan> `` ls -l lib/frink
04:29:27 <HackEgo> ​-rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 4586628 Dec 9 04:12 lib/frink
04:29:28 <HackEgo> No output.
04:29:37 <oerjan> `frink 2 m/s in km/h
04:29:56 <oerjan> `frink 2 m/s -> km/h
04:30:17 <oerjan> i guess it shouldn't be taking this long regardless of what the syntax is.
04:30:22 <HackEgo> No output.
04:30:33 <HackEgo> No output.
04:30:46 <oerjan> `` frink "2*2" </dev/null
04:31:03 <oerjan> (just testing if it's connected to reading input)
04:31:07 <HackEgo> 4
04:31:10 <oerjan> huh
04:31:27 <oerjan> `` frink "2 m/s => km/h" </dev/null
04:31:51 <HackEgo> 1 error(s) occurred during parsing. \ Syntax error: frink.expr.b9@45c7efd8, line 1, near column 7
04:32:03 <oerjan> `` frink "2 m/s -> km/h" </dev/null
04:32:31 <HackEgo> ​ Conformance error \ Left side is: 2 m s^-1 (velocity) \ Right side is: 1.5091904506831453200e+36 m^-1 s kg^-1 (unknown unit type) \ Suggestion: divide left side by energy \ \ For help, type: units[energy] \ to list known units with these dimensions.
04:32:51 <oerjan> `` frink "2 m/s -> km/hour" </dev/null
04:33:24 <HackEgo> 36/5 (exactly 7.2)
04:33:26 <oerjan> i certainly seem to recall `frink being faster than this
04:34:01 <oerjan> `frink 200 kilofurlongs / fortnight -> km/hour
04:34:11 <zzo38> Try writing the entire words "kilofurlong/fortnight" and "kilometre/hour" I think is what you need?
04:34:19 <oerjan> km is ok
04:34:20 <HackEgo> 3300000/27559 (approx. 119.7430966290504)
04:34:32 <oerjan> zzo38: nah that was close enough
04:34:57 <oerjan> zzo38: it just was the h it didn't understand (and the => i used, as well as timing out)
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04:35:07 <oerjan> i assuming it interprets h as planck's constant
04:35:08 <zzo38> On my computer I used the "units" program and got 119.74286 (so perhaps it is not quite as accurate? I don't know)
04:35:10 <oerjan> *assume
04:35:34 <zzo38> Maybe frink calculate directly by the fractions so it can be more accuracy
04:35:40 <oerjan> maybe
04:35:55 <oerjan> > 3300000/27559
04:35:56 <lambdabot> 119.7430966290504
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04:39:54 <picobit> so I am faced with a dillema.
04:40:24 <picobit> in this virtual machine, I have no "instructions". everything consists of moving data from one place or another.
04:40:50 <picobit> which means that programs consist of source:destination pairs.
04:40:56 <picobit> as well as some raw data.
04:41:00 <picobit> like constants, etc.
04:41:32 <oerjan> mhm
04:42:10 <picobit> you perform calculations via writing values to specific mapped locations in memory.
04:42:15 * oerjan reminded of MOV-only programming, and also Resplicate.
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04:43:00 <picobit> so your arithmetic logic unit is mapped to one location, your branch unit another.. etc.
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04:43:50 <oerjan> ah. i think that's also a known OISC type
04:44:07 <zzo38> I can say I have once designed schematics for something like that
04:44:08 <picobit> it's a modified transport-triggered architecture.
04:44:32 <zzo38> All instructions were move one register to another register and jump unconditionally.
04:44:59 <zzo38> Hoever the address to read instruction from is not only the address in the previous instruction but there are a few extra bits which are the condition flags.
04:45:25 <picobit> one sec, I'll show an example.
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04:46:11 <picobit> http://ideone.com/cf3d5y
04:46:25 <picobit> uncomment the debug define at the top to show the transfers as they execute.
04:46:44 <picobit> on the one hand, this is stupidly simple.
04:46:59 <picobit> and it's very cool.
04:47:35 <picobit> on the other hand, the "instructions" are pretty large, and something like adding two numbers together requires a bit more overhead.
04:47:58 <picobit> the intention is to form a TIS-100-like mesh of nodes that can pass values to eachother and perform calculations.
04:48:08 <picobit> this is the implementation for a node.
04:48:19 <picobit> (at least, just a small, simple example)
04:48:52 <picobit> btw, line 82 lies.
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04:50:46 <picobit> so. either I go ahead and implement something like a RISC (and make an assumption about the bit-width of the machine), I implement a stack machine (all well and good, save for the odd primitives), or say "fuck it" and accept that dealing with this kind of sizing is kind of required.
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04:53:01 * Marcela_Gandara va a dormir
04:54:46 <picobit> I think it's quite an interesting architecture that rightfully segments things up into functional units.
04:55:03 <picobit> simple on implementation, somewhat simple programming.. generating code for it wouldn't be too hard.
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05:16:36 <picobit> http://ideone.com/cf3d5y
05:17:04 <picobit> this is what it takes to add two arbitrary constants together.
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05:49:03 <zzo38> I set up a Fossil repository and it is much easier than git. One thing is autosync mode, and you do not necessarily have to copy all of the files, also you do not need a directory structure with a lot of files because instead the repository is just one file and it is a SQL database so you can even execute SQL commands on it. The commands are also simpler to operate, and it is just a single executable file.
05:50:33 <zzo38> However the webpage lacks many keyboard commands. I could easily add them for the main menu and ticket menu, but not for the wiki.
05:53:02 <picobit> damn, writing machine code for this thing is.. oddly relaxing.
05:57:42 <zzo38> My design was very different. It used a separate memory for program and data, and the data memory address was also a register and then another register to read/write data at that address. It used separate registers for the result of different arithmetic operations, but most operations shared the same registers for input (a few used the output register also for input).
05:58:30 <zzo38> Also each instruction included half of the address of the next instruction; the other half was a register that you could write to.
06:00:30 <picobit> https://ptpb.pw/046m
06:00:40 <picobit> a simple program to count from 5 to 0.
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06:01:46 <picobit> err, shit.
06:01:54 <picobit> that 'add' should be a 'sub'.
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06:28:26 <picobit> nitrix: ping.
06:33:29 <FreeFull> picobit: Counting from 5 to infinity is nice too
06:33:37 <picobit> FreeFull: :P
06:36:04 <picobit> the MIPS equivalent of that program is 16 bytes. that program is 80. a stack machine equivalent would be 40 bytes.
06:37:33 <picobit> price you pay for simplicity, I suppose. this assumes a 32-bit architecture.
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07:05:08 <hppavilion[1]> Functor:map::?:filter
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07:13:33 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: MonadPlus can fit there, although it's probably too powerful.
07:13:56 <oerjan> :t mfilter
07:13:57 <lambdabot> MonadPlus m => (a -> Bool) -> m a -> m a
07:15:03 <hppavilion[1]> Huh
07:15:24 <oerjan> Alternative+Traversable might work too, i think
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07:19:03 <oerjan> :t asum
07:19:04 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Alternative f) => t (f a) -> f a
07:20:27 <oerjan> i think you need MonadPlus to keep any structure more complicated than a list.
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07:42:25 <hppavilion[1]> Hm...
07:42:44 <hppavilion[1]> Has anybody Collatzized something >NN?
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07:43:42 <oerjan> makes no sentence your sense
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07:52:20 <hppavilion[1]> @tell oerjan NN is the natural numbers
07:52:20 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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08:24:55 <hppavilion[1]> Most people seem to think logical argumentation is about witty comebacks.
08:25:04 <hppavilion[1]> Usually we would facepalm at how wrong they are
08:25:10 <hppavilion[1]> But let's try going with the flow
08:25:16 <hppavilion[1]> How do you formalize witty comebacks?
08:25:19 <hppavilion[1]> </:P>
08:25:49 <picobit> by realizing them for what they are.
08:25:58 <picobit> an approximation of an argument.
08:26:03 <picobit> not an actual argument
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08:38:51 <mroman> http://codepad.org/4BCgVrxO
08:39:12 <mroman> although variables are kinda unhandy
08:39:28 <mroman> (whilecall, ifcalls don't create a new scope so you inherit the scope)
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11:43:54 <boily> `wisdom
11:44:21 <HackEgo> metar/metar is a service that allows nerds to talk about the weather.
11:57:07 <int-e> @metar lowi
11:57:08 <lambdabot> LOWI 211050Z 25003KT 200V310 CAVOK 20/06 Q1021 NOSIG
11:58:11 <boily> int-ello. enjoying the summer?
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12:02:37 <quintopia> bon matily
12:02:59 <quintopia> @metar katl
12:02:59 <lambdabot> KATL 211052Z 10005KT 10SM FEW180 13/09 A3009 RMK AO2 SLP185 T01280094
12:04:41 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIA!
12:04:56 <boily> you're morningy!
12:05:01 <boily> @metar CYUL
12:05:01 <lambdabot> CYUL 211033Z 16004KT 30SM FEW180 FEW240 02/M03 A3010 RMK AC1CI1 CI TR SLP194
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12:09:02 <quintopia> yes im always up but rarely get on irc
12:09:46 <quintopia> today im in a hotel
12:11:41 <boily> dun dun dun ♪
12:14:30 <fizzie> @metar EFHK
12:14:31 <lambdabot> EFHK 211050Z 28010KT 9999 FEW040 09/M06 Q1011 NOSIG
12:14:55 <fizzie> Not quite summer, but not bad either.
12:15:16 <quintopia> are you always so morningy?
12:15:34 <fizzie> Yesterday there was a bit of sleet.
12:15:56 <fizzie> It's 2:15pm here.
12:16:08 <quintopia> boily
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12:17:53 <boily> quintopia: yeah, between 6:30am and 7:20am.
12:18:20 <quintopia> oh thats mostly too early for me
12:18:27 <quintopia> have a good workday
12:18:38 <boily> I was AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH yesterday!
12:19:29 <boily> good hosteling! and/or whatever you are disappearing at because it'd be weird to not go outside, or something that you the way prefer to be!
12:19:34 <boily> (I need coffee...)
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13:48:54 <izabera> i'm back did you miss me?
13:49:02 <Taneb> Hi, izabera
13:49:07 <izabera> hi
13:50:38 <Taneb> `? Taneb
13:50:58 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of five genders, and voluminous but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
13:52:36 <Taneb> `run sed -i s/five/eight/ wisdom/taneb
13:52:49 <HackEgo> No output.
13:52:51 <Taneb> `? Taneb
13:52:55 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of eight genders, and voluminous but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
13:53:13 <Taneb> I'm feeling a bit more integral
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14:52:40 <quintopia> do the genders have names?
14:53:41 <Taneb> quintopia, no
14:54:03 <Taneb> (I'm probably gender-fluid)
14:55:43 <quintopia> then you should have [1,2] genders. The entire interval.
14:56:20 <quintopia> although, to be more precise, you should have a distribution on that interval
14:56:32 <quintopia> as you're probably not uniform
14:56:49 <Taneb> I'm not a huge fan of applied maths
14:56:58 <quintopia> what about type systems?
14:57:33 <Taneb> They're not applied when I'm done with them
14:58:09 <quintopia> can we say you are Maybe-gendered?
14:59:15 <Taneb> That's probably inaccurate
14:59:44 <quintopia> i don't understand types
15:06:53 <\oren\> idea: a compiler from C into C
15:07:12 <\oren\> with optimization
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17:53:44 * FireFly . o O ( clang → llvm optimizer → llvm-to-C backend )
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17:56:39 <olsner> FireFly: I wonder if that would get better or worse for every iteration
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17:58:00 <FireFly> Only one way to find out
17:58:28 <FireFly> I think/hope it would reach a fixpoint after one iteration
17:58:40 <FireFly> But maybe that's wishful thinking
17:59:15 <coppro> that would be cool
17:59:17 <coppro> do it
17:59:22 <coppro> and subscribe me to your mailing list
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18:02:31 <gamemanj> ...people still use mailing lists?
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18:28:21 <int-e> gamemanj: of course?
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18:41:36 <vanila> hello
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19:37:22 <fizzie> Random thing of the day: Aalto University's electrical engineering building had an oscilloscope showing a fancy vector graphics counter towards first of May. (It's a big holiday-type thing in Finland, especially for students.)
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19:37:59 <Taneb> We have a screen in the CS building's foyer saying when the next buses are
19:38:04 <Taneb> It's quite useful
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19:40:33 <fizzie> We have one of those too.
19:40:46 <fizzie> But it's just a boring LCD monitor.
19:40:58 <fizzie> An oscilloscope is much nicer.
19:41:20 <gamemanj> if only
19:41:44 <fizzie> I'd share this video I took of it if I could figure out how to remove the audio by just fiddling with this phone the right way.
19:42:59 <gamemanj> step 1: download an x86 VM
19:43:08 <gamemanj> step 2: install arch linux & ffmpeg
19:43:18 <gamemanj> step 3: ...(I think you can see where this is going)
19:43:57 <fizzie> Yeah, no. If that's the alternative, I'll just wait a few days until I'm at a computer.
19:45:04 <gamemanj> fizzie: Well, you don't have to use a VM. If you have a box you can SSH into, then you can use SCP to copy the file there and do it.
19:45:10 <hppavilion[1]> Would the proper way to make a font format for Windows
19:45:28 <hppavilion[1]> Be to produce a DLL with a callable function renderString(char* s[])
19:45:35 <fizzie> I've gotten the impression U-tube has an editor of some sort, which might work.
19:46:07 <hppavilion[1]> That returns an array of bitmaps representing each character in the string as a rasterized image in a pre-set font?
19:46:26 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: that's the proper way to produce malware
19:46:39 <gamemanj> here, have this "font"
19:46:57 * gamemanj gives hppavilion[1] a DLL which, upon loading, destroys the universes
19:47:03 <gamemanj> (all the universes)
19:47:40 <Taneb> That's a lot of universes
19:47:53 <int-e> or perhaps only one
19:47:56 <gamemanj> also, the Microsoft-Approved Naming Scheme for functions seems to be FirstLetterOfEachWordIsACapitalLetter
19:48:08 <fizzie> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4J9OAzXNfZAcWdOdFY4eDFLT2s/view?usp=drivesdk is a still image, though the animation was kind of nice.
19:48:58 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Oh
19:49:00 <int-e> inaccessible.
19:49:11 <fizzie> Huh.
19:49:22 <int-e> related: https://mobiforge.com/research-analysis/the-web-is-doom
19:49:28 <fizzie> I tapped "share link".
19:49:30 <int-e> fizzie: not enabling javascript :P
19:49:37 <fizzie> Maybe that wasn't enough.
19:49:38 <hppavilion[1]> (Well, a tagged union of bitmaps OR grayscale OR RGBAmap)
19:49:45 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: What /is/ the proper way to do it?
19:51:41 <fizzie> int-e: There's a lower-level link-to-file thing that I believe doesn't involve javascript, but maybe that's not what happens by sharing from the Android app. :/
19:52:06 <int-e> truetype is already turing complete... (meta reference: https://yahoo-security.tumblr.com/post/123981052855/font-parsing-vulnerabilities )
19:52:30 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: OK, and?
19:53:01 <int-e> fizzie: actually one of the links that noscript helpfully extracts worked
19:53:39 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: I'm not sure what problem with existing vector font formats you identified that needs to be solved.
19:53:57 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: There isn't a problem; it's just an attempt to understand computers
19:54:25 <fizzie> Good. It's probably the one I normally get from the command-line gdrive tool.
19:54:52 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: there's value in not exposing turing-complete machines (and in the worst case, actual machine code) in data formats.
19:55:06 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Huh?
19:55:12 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: Other than the points int-e has raised, nobody sane uses DLLs to store resources.
19:55:14 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: I'm a bit confused
19:55:24 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I'm not encoding the fonts as DLLs
19:55:49 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I'm talking about how one makes a renderer /for/ a font
19:56:01 <hppavilion[1]> *font format
19:56:02 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: Oh. That wasn't the question you described above, but OK.
19:56:10 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I must have misspoken
19:56:20 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: oh. "make a font format" is ambiguous.
19:56:24 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Ah
19:56:27 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: I see the issue now
19:56:55 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: I'm making a thing that accepts a font in a format (or, well, the name) and a string and produces the bitmap for the string
19:57:19 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Or, well, I might make such a thing
19:57:38 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: anyway in that case... I suspect the OS wants to be able to cache glyphs.
19:57:46 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: True
19:58:16 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: How exactly do I go about it though?
19:58:36 <gamemanj> Well, modern font rendering is complex
19:58:43 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I imagine so
19:59:06 <gamemanj> There's ligatures, subsitutions, RTL, kerning, spacing, all the different types of curves,
19:59:20 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Yes, correct
19:59:21 <gamemanj> and 0x10000 characters. Before we get into Emoji.
19:59:28 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I know
19:59:43 <fizzie> I think you generally don't. Because if it's not part of the "system" (FSVO), every program wanting to take advantage of it would have to do so separately, and they wouldn't.
19:59:50 <gamemanj> Which means it really depends what font format you're trying to render.
19:59:59 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: OK, and?
20:00:17 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I'm inventing a simplistic format as a project. Let's say it's for school.
20:00:41 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: And let's pretend that said school assignment has 3+ years to be completed.
20:02:10 <gamemanj> It depends on how much you want to cover.
20:02:20 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Not much. Yet.
20:02:45 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I want to build it slowly; not as a single monolithic program that has all features right off the bat
20:03:05 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Nobody is going to ever /use/ this /seriously/, so it doesn't have to be spectacular
20:03:07 <fizzie> If you don't have any practical goals, you could as well implement your format as an extension to FreeType, which already supports a number of formats.
20:03:11 <gamemanj> Unifont, for example, is a bitmap font that more-or-less handles the Unicode BMP, and can be easily rendered.
20:03:47 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: My font format is a rather primitive vector-based thing.
20:04:27 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I just need to know what kind of file I use to make an easily-renderable font that can be used by things /other/ than applications which include the entirety of the renderer code packaged with them
20:04:55 <gamemanj> ...Ok, now I'm confused
20:05:06 <gamemanj> Are you asking about making a font or making a font renderer?
20:05:28 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I don't care about the code I'm putting into the file, I just care what I need to do to make it usable by external programs (that support it in their code)
20:05:56 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Once I know what kind of file I'm producing, I can find how to make it online
20:06:15 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: I'd look at http://www.cairographics.org/manual/cairo-User-Fonts.html for inspiration
20:06:17 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: It boils down to: Is making the renderer a DLL the right way to go for windows?
20:06:26 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: No.
20:06:33 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: OK, then what is?
20:06:36 <gamemanj> Make a TTF. FontForge can make it, but Birdfont also works (but is a bit of a mess)
20:06:51 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: The goal is a custom format.
20:06:51 <int-e> (I wouldn't expect it to solve all problems... but it's something smart people have worked on.)
20:07:12 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: The goal isn't to make a font. It's to make a format for encoding fonts.
20:07:17 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: This isn't a practical thing.
20:07:21 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: This is a fun thing.
20:07:50 <gamemanj> So, basically, your question boils down to "If I am inventing my own format, and using it in multiple applications, should I put loading/rendering code into a DLL?"
20:07:50 <int-e> (and I'd call it a "font renderer" instead of a "font format")
20:08:00 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: OK
20:08:05 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Yes.
20:08:09 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: That is the question.
20:08:27 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: And if it shouldn't be a DLL, what should it be?
20:08:35 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: Keep your font format (your data) separate from your font renderer (your code) and you'll be fine.
20:08:45 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Yes, that's the goal.
20:09:03 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: The renderer is the demonstration of the format.
20:09:03 <int-e> I like it when (academic) spam comes right to the point. Subject: Publish your papers
20:09:33 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: The renderer should read the font data from a file - having the DLL be the font is a great way to stop you from ever having more than one font.
20:09:37 <Zoroaster> Cannot seem to get GLUT and GL to work on gcc with MinGW...
20:09:46 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Well duh.
20:09:52 <hppavilion[1]> Zoroaster: Neither can I
20:10:05 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I don't want to make the DLL the font
20:10:09 <Zoroaster> hpp: Has anyone?
20:10:15 <hppavilion[1]> Zoroaster: Probably.
20:10:24 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: So now I'm confused as to why there was any question about it in the first place. It seems you have your plan in order and correct.
20:10:41 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Yes, I was just confirming that it /was/ correct
20:10:42 <fizzie> int-e: Do these "get any degree in 5 weeks" emails count as "academic spam"?
20:11:10 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: If they're accurate, yes.
20:11:34 <int-e> fizzie: I suppose
20:11:36 <Zoroaster> Hm... is there, however, an alternative, hpp?
20:11:38 * int-e is not getting those
20:11:43 <hppavilion[1]> Zoroaster: I don't know
20:11:58 <hppavilion[1]> Zoroaster: I never got it to work. I might get it working in the future.
20:11:59 <fizzie> "No examination! No study! No class!"
20:12:06 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: The question was "Am I doing this right", it wasn't "How do I do this".
20:12:10 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Then no.
20:12:13 <int-e> fizzie: haha, at least the last one is accurate
20:12:26 <fizzie> I'm not sure what you spend the 5 weeks doing. Paying, I guess.
20:12:43 <Zoroaster> hpp: When you do it, could you ping me? Thanks.
20:12:50 <hppavilion[1]> Zoroaster: OK
20:13:01 <fizzie> int-e: It's also "100% confidential".
20:13:11 <hppavilion[1]> Zoroaster: But I'm not going to be able to help you any time soon, so find someone more qualified.
20:13:24 <fizzie> I think that means they send the papers in an unremarkable envelope.
20:13:44 <int-e> fizzie: perhaps you have to keep them confidential too
20:13:51 <gamemanj> welp, too late
20:14:10 * gamemanj copies out this conversation and pastes it to a remote server
20:14:47 <fizzie> I just sent my thesis pre-examiner the finished book by snail mail, and it weighed 508g, while the postage cost class boundary was at 500g.
20:15:39 <coppro> that reminds me I need to order a printout of my thesis
20:16:04 <fizzie> How large are your printouts?
20:16:18 <fizzie> In numbers of copies, I mean.
20:16:24 <gamemanj> fizzie: maybe you should have taken some scissors to one of the pages
20:16:54 <gamemanj> or, better, taken some scissors to all of the pages, cut off a little margin from each...
20:17:08 <fizzie> I printed 80, because someone from the department said the previous ones had been 60 and 100.
20:17:50 <fizzie> gamemanj: I think I could've just removed some bubble wrap, but it was all taped shut at that point.
20:18:22 <gamemanj> nefarious bubble wrap
20:18:42 <gamemanj> it's like clothes store manniquins - eevil
20:19:08 <fizzie> Hmm, helium-filled bubble wrap...
20:19:22 <gamemanj> Why not hydrogen?
20:19:40 <fizzie> There might be a rule about shipping that.
20:20:06 <gamemanj> There might be a rule about making the postmaster sound like a chipmunk.
20:20:39 <fizzie> Oh. You can't mail helium either, I just checked.
20:21:24 <int-e> well you'd need to displace about 8l of air...
20:21:26 <fizzie> Or, rather, you need to do something special about that, not just stuff it in a regular consumer envelope.
20:21:39 <fizzie> That's a bit much.
20:22:08 <fizzie> The envelope thickness must be <= 30 mm as well.
20:23:34 <gamemanj> And presumably it can't contain flattened human - there goes my vacation plans, certain kinds of biscuits - there goes my backup-backup-backup business plan - or any form of bicarbonate of soda - there goes my semi-evil plotting plans.
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20:41:42 <earendel> backup-backup-backup business pla
20:41:49 <earendel> i know what you mean,
20:42:17 <APic> Ok.
20:42:26 <earendel> have such too. it's a mess. i'm afraid to delete them.
20:42:47 <APic> Masses ♥
20:45:48 <gamemanj> Aha! A Unicode Heart! I must frame this!
20:45:55 <gamemanj> [♥]
20:46:24 <gamemanj> there, now it's framed and going in my collection of Unicode letters
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20:47:22 <prooftechnique> ╔♥╗ I prefer a nice pedestal
20:48:45 <APic> Ok
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20:49:37 <prooftechnique> I did not know that the couple emojis were composed of combining characters. 👨❤️👨
20:50:38 <gamemanj> well done, prooftechnique, selecting your text creates a weirdness field now (because combining chars)
20:51:32 <prooftechnique> `unicode U+1F399 U+20E0
20:52:11 <HackEgo> No output.
20:53:15 * gamemanj was reading a feed one day and found out that someone had adopted the unicode character "CIRCLED DIGIT NINE" U+2468
20:53:53 * gamemanj is not curious as to the choice of character, but more curious as to why on earth a character can be adopted
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20:54:20 <prooftechnique> Why can a highway be adopted?
20:54:36 <gamemanj> Can they???
20:54:38 <gamemanj> And why???
20:54:57 <prooftechnique> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adopt-a-Highway
20:55:39 <prooftechnique> It's free labor and maintenance for an indeterminate amount of time for no guaranteed benefit.
20:55:45 <prooftechnique> Just like raising a child!
20:56:00 <prooftechnique> s/free/volunteer
20:58:36 <fizzie> The thing about adopting a character is that many people can adapt the same character.
20:59:06 <prooftechnique> That seems like it would make holidays very stressful
20:59:11 <gamemanj> see "チルノ": http://www.unicode.org/consortium/adopted-characters.html
20:59:21 <fizzie> Unlimited amount of people on the bronze tier, 5 on the silver tier and 1 on the gold.
20:59:29 <gamemanj> I haven't that much of a clue who チルノ is...
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21:00:46 <fizzie> If it didn't cost actual money, I'd recommend for #esoteric to officially adopt the multiocular o (ꙮ).
21:01:02 <nergis> nitrix: shutting idiots out won't allow them to improve, they'll just keep making people facepalm. It's a lose-lose. By letting us in, we can improve and in the long run make a win-win situation of it all
21:01:13 * gamemanj mumbles "and a hundred dollars at that, which isn't even money I understand"
21:01:20 -!- nitrix has left ("WeeChat 1.4").
21:01:30 <gamemanj> (and the best way to handle money you don't understand is not to spend it)
21:01:37 <prooftechnique> gamemanj: I think チルノ is an ice fairy
21:01:45 <gamemanj> ha...ha...ha...
21:01:54 <gamemanj> Ice fairies don't exist, last I checked.
21:02:04 <shachaf> fizzie: Bronze adoption is only $100.
21:02:27 <prooftechnique> Well, her emblem is a nineball
21:02:43 <fizzie> `quote ꙮ
21:02:44 <HackEgo> 1136) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
21:03:50 <prooftechnique> I don't think I get it
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21:04:17 <gamemanj> you can't rhyme with unicode chars
21:04:37 <gamemanj> in the same way that most people can't jump over bars
21:04:40 <prooftechnique> Oh, I guess none of them rendered
21:04:52 <gamemanj> But if you end up with some doubt
21:04:56 <gamemanj> remember what life is all about
21:05:12 <prooftechnique> Make 'em laugh?
21:05:21 <gamemanj> ...no idea
21:06:28 <int-e> `unidecode ꙮ
21:06:34 <int-e> it does rhyme
21:06:41 <int-e> that *is* the joke.
21:07:36 <shachaf> Well, the original limerick didn't use the Unicode character.
21:07:44 <shachaf> But it was quickly improved.
21:07:47 <prooftechnique> Oh, good. It just didn't show for me. That's much funnier
21:08:29 <prooftechnique> Of all the weird characters for Pragamata not to have :/
21:08:49 <prooftechnique> *Pragmata
21:11:03 <APic> pragma in ##C hates me B-(((
21:11:22 <APic> pragma-, sorry.
21:13:32 <hppavilion[1]> Hm...
21:13:43 <vanila> use /ignore to turn off his messages
21:15:22 <prooftechnique> Even weirder, it only doesn't display in tmux :/
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21:16:25 <int-e> тск.
21:19:02 <hppavilion[1]> A fully-featured programming language, modulo the basic stuff you need to do anything
21:20:07 <hppavilion[1]> So it has things like FOR loops and IF-THEN and a poweful type system
21:20:13 <hppavilion[1]> But it doesn't have, say, an integer type
21:20:18 <hppavilion[1]> Or tuples
21:20:32 <hppavilion[1]> So you have to Church Construct everything
21:20:42 <hppavilion[1]> (Or some other construction)
21:21:13 <hppavilion[1]> In fact, pattern match everything, how about?
21:21:53 <hppavilion[1]> (Even BF has an integer type, but this would not)
21:22:04 <hppavilion[1]> On a related note, λ-fuck
21:23:20 <hppavilion[1]> λ-calculus with antiapplication
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21:25:05 <hppavilion[1]> (λy.λz.Kz(yz))⟡K = λx.λy.λz.xz(yz)
21:25:17 <hppavilion[1]> Where ⟡ is antiapplication
21:25:50 <hppavilion[1]> (complex-argument function? Rather than natural-argument?)
21:27:53 <hppavilion[1]> Hm... is there an automated online tool that allows you to select the best programming language for a project?
21:28:09 <hppavilion[1]> If not, someone should engineer that.
21:29:39 <hppavilion[1]> It'd be based on a generalization of the `take 2 [Fast, Good, Cheap]` model
21:45:22 <shachaf> fizzie: https://twitter.com/unicode
21:45:24 <shachaf> I kind of want to adopt a code point with a name longer than 140 characters.
21:48:50 <int-e> they'll just put the name on the image then
21:49:36 <int-e> (well, they certainly could, I can't say whether they would)
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22:17:03 <shachaf> int-e: It's scow how Twitter encourages people to put text in images.
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22:44:16 <oerjan> @messages-
22:44:16 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 14h 51m 55s ago: NN is the natural numbers
22:44:27 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Perfect timing
22:46:03 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: oh, in that case the answer is yes: you can easily generalize it to 2-adic integers. unfortunately then it also gets trivially false - you have both cycles (because you can solve equations) and non-repeating sequences (because the cardinality is too big for there not to be)
22:46:28 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I forgot what I was discussing
22:46:34 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: What can be generalized?
22:46:34 <oerjan> collatz.
22:46:47 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, yes
22:46:56 <hppavilion[1]> Scrollback went back far enough, AITO
22:47:09 <oerjan> e.g. 3x+1=8x has a solution in the 2-adics
22:47:39 <oerjan> (exactly one, because you can divide by 5)
22:50:18 <oerjan> hm should be doable by hand...
22:51:05 <hppavilion[1]> Ugh
22:51:23 <hppavilion[1]> I want a statically-typed 2JS language with operator overloading. Does such a thing exist?
22:53:10 <oerjan> > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 205 ""
22:53:12 <lambdabot> "11001101"
22:53:21 <oerjan> hm not repeating enough
22:53:42 <oerjan> > iterate (*16) 1
22:53:43 <lambdabot> [1,16,256,4096,65536,1048576,16777216,268435456,4294967296,68719476736,10995...
22:53:51 <hppavilion[1]> > binBoolOp 1 True False
22:53:52 <lambdabot> False
22:53:53 <oerjan> um not good
22:53:57 <hppavilion[1]> > binBoolOp 1 True
22:53:58 <lambdabot> <Bool -> Bool>
22:54:02 <hppavilion[1]> > binBoolOp 1 True True
22:54:04 <lambdabot> True
22:54:43 <oerjan> > 2^64
22:54:44 <lambdabot> 18446744073709551616
22:55:11 <oerjan> > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit (2^64 - (2^64-1) `div` 5) ""
22:55:12 <lambdabot> "1100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001101"
22:55:49 <oerjan> there you go, it's that pattern extended leftwards
22:56:10 <oerjan> (i guess this wasn't really by hand)
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22:58:16 <vanila> haha
22:58:20 <vanila> the number repeats forever
22:58:25 <oerjan> btw in case you didn't know, 2-adic integers are essentially 2's complement arithmetic with infinite bitsize
22:58:54 <vanila> is there any interest in p-adic integers that are 'rational' vs irrational
22:59:44 <oerjan> vanila: the rationals embed in the p-adic field, so they're really just the normal rationals in a different surrounding space.
22:59:58 <oerjan> aka "it's a field of characteristic 0"
23:00:09 <vanila> im only talking about the integers though
23:00:26 <vanila> like ...11001100110011001101
23:00:27 <oerjan> in that case you have m/n where p does not divide n
23:00:32 <vanila> vs ...1010001010111110101100001
23:00:46 <oerjan> and i think they're indeed the ones that repeat that way
23:02:18 <oerjan> i don't know enough about p-adic integers to know whether there are any particular irrational ones that are considered "interesting" (although the obvious guess would be someone thinks so)
23:02:39 <hppavilion[1]> Inductive Logic Programming
23:02:49 <oerjan> i think there's a theory of algebraic ones
23:03:19 <vanila> oh yeha for number theory
23:04:00 <oerjan> i vaguely recall something about limits behaving nicer in the p-adics than in the reals in some circumstances
23:08:22 * oerjan realized today that girl genius has a lot of dungeons
23:08:56 <oerjan> in the wide sense
23:11:41 <Taneb> Castle Stormvarus or whatever, Castle Heterodyne, the library in Paris...
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23:12:12 <Taneb> Underneath Paris
23:12:20 <Taneb> The monk's place with the trains
23:12:24 <Taneb> I can't think of any others?
23:13:09 <oerjan> maybe the mechanicsburg cathedral
23:13:52 <oerjan> well maybe not so many, but they've spent a lot of time on them
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23:15:33 <oerjan> bohily
23:16:22 <oerjan> Taneb: oh there were _two_ sturmvoraus castles
23:16:34 <Taneb> Oh yes!
23:17:09 <boily> hellørjan. what?
23:17:12 <oerjan> sturmhalten and the one they used the portal to
23:17:17 <boily> oh.
23:17:22 <boily> Tanelle!
23:17:27 <oerjan> boily: we're discussing how many dungeony places there are in girl genius
23:18:35 <boily> I kind of lost track. I'm taking the wait-for-a-decade-and-get-things-sorted-out-then route.
23:18:57 <oerjan> perhaps the tunnels near mechanicsburg where the jägers took agatha
23:19:06 <Taneb> I forgot about the one they took the portal to
23:20:59 * oerjan wonders if the dreen are manipulating events so that they can get to go home
23:22:24 <oerjan> i wonder if they're inspired by the heptapods in story of your life
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23:22:51 <oerjan> (not in appearance but in behavior)
23:22:51 <boily> Taneb has heptapods in his life?
23:23:04 <Taneb> I do?
23:23:14 <oerjan> boily: "story of your life" is the name of a story hth
23:23:30 <boily> tdh.
23:23:45 <oerjan> hm it's being filmed
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23:26:02 <oerjan> that wikipedia synopsis already sounds different than the original story.
23:26:27 <oerjan> hope they didn't mess up the basic premise
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23:29:04 <oerjan> <Taneb> I'm feeling a bit more integral <-- just two? how boring.
23:29:40 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa whoa whoa, i read that story
23:29:42 <shachaf> and also the book
23:29:47 <shachaf> it was p. good
23:29:59 <oerjan> well someone here linked me the story
23:30:30 <oerjan> s/me //, it may been just logreading
23:30:34 <oerjan> *+have
23:31:29 <shachaf> I know I linked copumpkin to another story in that book.
23:31:38 <shachaf> Several times, in fact.
23:31:44 <shachaf> copumpkin:
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