←2016-07-09 2016-07-10 2016-07-11→ ↑2016 ↑all
00:14:58 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:26:45 <\oren\> `unicode INSULAR
00:27:21 <HackEgo> U+1D79 LATIN SMALL LETTER INSULAR G \ UTF-8: e1 b5 b9 UTF-16BE: 1d79 Decimal: &#7545; \ ᵹ (Ᵹ) \ Uppercase: U+A77D \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+1DD8 COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER INSULAR D \ UTF-8: e1 b7 98 UTF-16BE: 1dd8 Decimal: &#7640; \ ᷘ \ Category: Mn (Mark, Non-Spacing) \ Bidi: NSM (Non-Spacing
00:27:34 <\oren\> hellꙫrjan!
00:30:03 -!- boily has joined.
00:33:31 <\oren\> 今boilyは
00:38:16 <boily> 안녀랜하심니카!
00:42:49 <\oren\> ok I see the "eoraen" in there
00:43:22 <\oren\> (after looking up a chart)
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00:48:01 <oerjan> hellꙫren
00:48:39 <oerjan> boheily
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00:54:30 <boily> բարի իրիգըռյա՛ն:
00:54:48 <boily> `unidecode ꙫ
00:54:50 -!- Shubshub has joined.
00:55:39 <boily> `unidecode ⚇
00:55:41 <HackEgo> ​[U+2687 WHITE CIRCLE WITH TWO DOTS]
00:56:32 <oerjan> Շնորհակալություն Աստծուն, Google թարգմանել
00:57:42 <Shubshub> Hey
00:57:48 <boily> `relcome Shubshub
00:57:56 <Shubshub> I'm not new :P
00:58:02 <boily> aaaargh!
00:58:06 <HackEgo> Shubshub: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
00:58:14 <oerjan> a rare Shubshub sighting
00:58:18 <boily> Shellobshellob it is then!
00:58:20 <Shubshub> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Gopher
00:58:22 <Shubshub> Thats mine
00:58:28 <oerjan> boily: just pretend it means rare welcome hth
00:58:56 <boily> OKAY
00:59:01 <Shubshub> I'm gonna do some code golf
00:59:29 * oerjan sends boily an invoice for an OKAY license
01:08:59 <shachaf> oerjan: how much
01:10:11 <oerjan> that's a trade secret hth
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01:14:02 <shachaf> OKAY
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01:24:04 -!- Melvar` has changed nick to Melvar.
01:28:27 <Shubshub> Attempting to write a new esolang :D
01:59:20 <\oren\> what kind?
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02:00:38 -!- Sgeo has joined.
02:04:21 <boily> Shubshub: is it going to be minimal? line or character based? will it use [REDACTED] and with them twist the fabric of the Universe?
02:15:48 <oerjan> obviously it should use [RETRACTED] instead.
02:16:12 <Shubshub> You'll see
02:16:15 <Shubshub> Once I get it working first
02:16:28 <shachaf> oerjan: good opportunity to make a section-retraction pun
02:16:31 <shachaf> but i can't think of one
02:20:06 <oerjan> indeed, it's hard to think of an epic pun in a split moment
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02:24:00 <oerjan> why does the retraction have to be the left inverse, the opposite would have been more mnemonic
02:25:06 <shachaf> a lection and a retraction?
02:26:39 <oerjan> well a section would have been sinister
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02:26:55 <oerjan> and r* is obvious
02:27:17 <shachaf> ah, of course
02:27:36 * oerjan had to check his mnemonic for free and underlying adjoints again
02:28:28 <shachaf> oerjan: that would have been a good mnemonic
02:28:30 <oerjan> it's also latin-based
02:28:37 <shachaf> but reality detracts from it
02:28:48 <oerjan> *sinister trombone*
02:28:59 <shachaf> What's your menmonic for free and underlying?
02:29:06 <oerjan> "liberty" hth
02:29:34 <oerjan> hah i spent so long typing that word correctly and then you botched it :P
02:29:36 <shachaf> You can always go with 12:42 <byorgey> tswett: often a forgetful functor is called 'U'; if the free functor is called F then it reads like F -| U which in English sounds like a crude insult. "You can't remember which way around a free-forgetful adjunction goes? Well, F -| U !"
02:29:54 <oerjan> O KAY
02:30:03 <alercah> shachaf: do you ever try to explain monads using join rather than bind?
02:30:15 <shachaf> alercah: Only to myself.
02:30:23 <alercah> I wonder if it would be helpful
02:30:30 <shachaf> alercah: I used to not think it was a good approach, but then thinking about Applicative for a while made me think it would be good.
02:30:54 <shachaf> You want to write your do-expressions using Applicative as much as possible, and only using join where you're forced to.
02:31:08 <shachaf> E.g. join (f <$> x <*> y <*> z)
02:31:12 <alercah> yeah
02:31:19 <shachaf> Since join is expensive and special.
02:31:19 <oerjan> shachaf: ApplicativeDo hth
02:31:27 <shachaf> You can think of it as a "choke point" or something.
02:31:34 <ais523> @djinn forall a.a
02:31:34 <lambdabot> -- f cannot be realized.
02:31:36 <shachaf> oerjan: I know, I was a proponent of ApplicativeDo years before it was written.
02:31:42 <alercah> it's the "special" that really gets me there
02:31:44 <oerjan> sweet
02:32:02 <shachaf> copumpkin proposed it in #haskell originally, if I remember correctly.
02:32:05 <shachaf> hi copumpkin
02:32:17 <shachaf> And then I proposed a jammed up version that doesn't use tuples.
02:32:22 <shachaf> I don't know how it actually gets translated...
02:32:38 <alercah> because maybe it would be easier to explain the magicness of IO with join
02:32:44 <oerjan> me neither but i think they wrote a paper about it
02:33:12 <shachaf> `? ørjan
02:33:19 <oerjan> i didn't hth
02:33:28 <shachaf> sounds like we know who the paper expert here is
02:33:51 <alercah> is it noah bennett
02:33:59 <HackEgo> ​Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers without noticing it.
02:34:12 <shachaf> Should I write up my ideas as papers rather than blabbering in IRC?
02:34:17 <shachaf> How does one write papers, anyway?
02:34:19 <oerjan> @djinn forall a. a -> a
02:34:19 <lambdabot> f a = a
02:34:25 <shachaf> I've had some good ideas occasionally.
02:34:25 <oerjan> huh it does support forall
02:34:32 <ais523> oerjan: I was hoping it'd answer undefined
02:34:37 <shachaf> It supports forall, but only in a boring way.
02:34:39 <ais523> which I believe is the only term with that type
02:34:43 <ais523> but maybe it considers it cheating
02:34:48 <shachaf> ais523: That's the one thing I'd hope that djinn wouldn't answer. hht
02:34:52 <shachaf> hth
02:35:01 <shachaf> i guess my coin flipped badly
02:35:19 <shachaf> Actually there are many things I'd hope that it wouldn't answer. Like f = f
02:36:15 <oerjan> shachaf: with LaTeX hth
02:36:48 <oerjan> ais523: djinn will not give answers containing bottoms, afaik
02:36:50 <shachaf> ais523: Djinn is a theorem prover for a consistent logic.
02:36:58 <shachaf> i,i it can even generate a proof of that fact
02:37:11 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
02:38:46 <oerjan> shachaf: somewhere, there's a bullet with your gödel number on it hth
02:39:04 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa
02:39:15 <oerjan> it's a pretty big bullet, i guess.
02:40:18 <oerjan> food ->
02:40:52 <shachaf> oerjan: perhaps https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/DexterAndSinister_HeraldicEscutcheon.png can help with your mnemonic hth
02:41:12 <shachaf> s is on the right
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02:49:21 <Shubshub> http://prntscr.com/bqyvw4 Sneak Peek :D
02:56:40 <oerjan> shachaf: i assume that's viewed from the shield carrier, then.
02:57:08 <shachaf> oerjan: the point is, just think of that picture and your mnemonic will be fine
02:57:19 <oerjan> oKaY
02:57:21 <shachaf> alternatively all your mnemonics will be permanently messed up
02:57:36 <shachaf> `` rgrep sinister wisdom
02:57:59 <HackEgo> No output.
02:58:18 <shachaf> also do you recommend the book _Bend Sinister_ twh
02:59:37 <oerjan> no hth
02:59:53 <oerjan> dystopias is so last century
03:00:33 <shachaf> what book do you recommend instead
03:02:07 <oerjan> winnie the pooh hth
03:02:19 <shachaf> already read it hth
03:02:25 <oerjan> ah.
03:02:42 <shachaf> also here's your mnemonic: retractions are free
03:03:13 <oerjan> eek
03:03:13 <shachaf> sections are forgetful
03:03:17 <shachaf> which is why you need a retraction
03:03:34 <shachaf> if you don't like that one, how about: retractions are forgetful, and sections are cofree
03:04:11 <shachaf> oerjan: also, if you compose them in the opposite order -- s . r -- you get an idempotent
03:04:19 <shachaf> and it's the idempotent which is split
03:04:20 <oerjan> `learn Cafreine is the favorite drug of category theorists.
03:04:28 <HackEgo> Learned 'cafreine': Cafreine is the favorite drug of category theorists.
03:04:40 <shachaf> so it's perfectly legitimate to consider the retraction to be on the right and the section on the left
03:04:42 <myname> wat
03:05:49 <shachaf> also a retraction has a right inverse
03:05:53 <oerjan> how is a retraction free, anyway
03:06:01 <shachaf> and a section has a sinister inverse
03:06:04 <shachaf> well, it's a left adjoint
03:06:10 <shachaf> in a boring way
03:06:20 <oerjan> myname: problem?
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03:07:11 <oerjan> . o O ( did trollface get into unicode yet? )
03:07:17 <oerjan> `unicode TROLLFACE
03:07:35 <HackEgo> No output.
03:07:39 <oerjan> `unicode TROLL
03:07:47 <HackEgo> U+1F68E TROLLEYBUS \ UTF-8: f0 9f 9a 8e UTF-16BE: d83dde8e Decimal: &#128654; \ 🚎 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+1F6D2 SHOPPING TROLLEY \ UTF-8: f0 9f 9b 92 UTF-16BE: d83dded2 Decimal: &#128722; \ 🛒 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
03:08:11 <shachaf> it's probably in the norwegian section hth
03:08:24 <shachaf> i retract that statement
03:08:36 <oerjan> wait, does this mean every idempotent is also a monad in a boring way
03:09:42 <oerjan> `` unicode TROLL | grep -i face
03:09:48 <HackEgo> No output.
03:10:58 <oerjan> ...probably.
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03:14:49 <shachaf> oerjan: hmm, i was thinking the answer was yes, but maybe there's something wrong with my reasoning
03:15:20 <shachaf> Since in a discrete category I imagine the only monad is the identity monad.
03:15:25 <oerjan> hm did my stackoverflow answer get linked somewhere?
03:15:28 <shachaf> So what category was I even talking about?
03:15:36 <shachaf> Which one?
03:15:40 <shachaf> stackoverfloerjan
03:15:56 <oerjan> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/32931549/to-what-extent-are-applicative-monad-instances-uniquely-determined/32932140#32932140
03:16:15 <oerjan> i just got a bunch of new votes on it
03:16:24 <shachaf> your stack overfloweth
03:19:08 <zzo38> The number of monads on a category with more than one object is at least one more than the number of final objects of that category.
03:19:14 <shachaf> oerjan: The same questioner asked a duplicate of the same question, and linked to the previous one.
03:19:18 <shachaf> http://stackoverflow.com/users/1333025/petr-pudl%C3%A1k
03:19:27 <shachaf> you can find it in the google cache if you know what search term to use
03:19:42 <oerjan> oh
03:20:12 <shachaf> https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=cache:stackoverflow.com/questions/38272545/are-monad-instances-uniquely-determined-by-their-applicative-instances
03:20:43 <shachaf> I guess the questioner read your addendum and deleted the question or something.
03:20:44 <oerjan> i found it from that pudlak link anyway.
03:21:45 <oerjan> duplicates aren't deleted, although this particular one might be so close it just as well might be
03:21:48 <shachaf> oerjan: do you feel that it's unfair that your answer was voted higher than pigworker's fancy dependent type answer
03:22:04 <shachaf> That duplicate seems to have been turned into a redirect.
03:22:05 <oerjan> shachaf: not really.
03:22:09 <shachaf> Which is as good as deleting.
03:22:44 <oerjan> shachaf: possibly you don't have enough rep to see the original.
03:22:55 <shachaf> Well, I'm not even logged in
03:22:56 <oerjan> (neener neener)
03:23:49 <shachaf> oerjan: I logged in and now I can see the duplicate question.
03:23:55 <shachaf> Are you pleased with yourself?
03:24:48 <oerjan> shachaf: i expect people with slightly less than pigworker's brain (me included) will find my answer more enlightening to start with.
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03:25:06 <shachaf> Oh, pigworker is doing the container thing.
03:25:13 <shachaf> As in http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~psztxa/publ/tlca03.pdf
03:25:42 <oerjan> i said ME INCLUDED, thx
03:25:43 <shachaf> I was all about those things a while ago.
03:26:03 <oerjan> yeah you were a functor pro
03:26:16 <shachaf> pigworker is too good
03:26:54 <shachaf> "Pledge: I will stop doing edits to fix obvious bugs in other people's answers. They're never accepted and I just lose my temper. (Sorry about that last one.)"
03:26:58 <shachaf> look who's retired
03:27:14 <oerjan> <shachaf> Are you pleased with yourself? <-- . o O ( darn, missed )
03:27:54 <shachaf> ?
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03:28:11 <oerjan> shachaf: that was long before i retired. also my stackoverflow retirement could in theory be temporary. if i ever catch up with /r/haskell
03:28:36 <oerjan> and if Haskell doesn't implode before i do it.
03:28:38 <shachaf> why would you want to catch up with /r/haskell
03:28:46 <shachaf> i haven't even looked at it in months
03:28:50 <shachaf> i assume it's gone down the drain
03:28:54 <shachaf> just like everything in the world
03:29:08 <shachaf> things were all better in the good old days, when there was no one on my lawn
03:29:10 <oerjan> well i heard rumors it had.
03:29:44 <oerjan> then i continued catching up anyway.
03:31:21 <oerjan> i do see traces of trolls, mostly deleted.
03:31:47 <oerjan> and of course i only read a small fraction.
03:32:43 <oerjan> i think i'm getting to the point where i should start seeing if the rumors are overblown or not.
03:33:12 <oerjan> (aka mid May)
03:33:57 <shachaf> @google neverhood drain
03:33:58 <lambdabot> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4MARAsx1Vo
03:34:30 <shachaf> just like that
03:34:56 <shachaf> maybe you should join #haskell if you want evidence hth
03:39:24 <oerjan> oh i have no doubt _some_ haskell fora have gone down the drain. i've heard rumors bout twitter...
03:39:35 <oerjan> well, *read
03:39:44 <oerjan> *+a
03:41:02 <shachaf> @wn bout
03:41:04 <lambdabot> *** "bout" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
03:41:04 <lambdabot> bout
03:41:04 <lambdabot> n 1: (sports) a division during which one team is on the
03:41:04 <lambdabot> offensive [syn: {turn}, {bout}, {round}]
03:41:04 <lambdabot> 2: a period of illness; "a bout of fever"; "a bout of
03:41:06 <lambdabot> [5 @more lines]
03:41:11 <shachaf> @more
03:41:11 <lambdabot> depression"
03:41:11 <lambdabot> 3: a contest or fight (especially between boxers or wrestlers)
03:41:12 <lambdabot> 4: an occasion for excessive eating or drinking; "they went on a
03:41:14 <lambdabot> bust that lasted three days" [syn: {bust}, {tear}, {binge},
03:41:16 <lambdabot> {bout}]
03:41:30 <shachaf> None of those are the meaning of "bout" I know.
03:41:34 <shachaf> I guess 2 is the closest.
03:41:49 <oerjan> it's a bout of right
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04:18:37 <Shubshub> Is the bot that interprets esolangs still in this chan?
04:19:32 -!- ybden has joined.
04:25:31 <oerjan> no, but HackEgo has a port of most of it
04:25:51 <oerjan> `! unlambda ``.H.ii
04:25:53 <HackEgo> Hi
04:26:36 <oerjan> oh and fungot does brainfuck and underload, of course
04:26:36 <fungot> oerjan: and you call yourself a frog, and ayla... i will not betray my friends! filthy medal! i won't forget this!
04:26:53 <oerjan> fungot: i don't think i generally do, no
04:26:53 <fungot> oerjan: but, we are far outnumbered! clear, too! ayla have fun! i heard you were to be executed, dear!
04:27:09 <shachaf> @ul ``.H.ii
04:27:09 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: url pl
04:27:14 <oerjan> ^ul (Hi)S
04:27:14 <fungot> Hi
04:27:14 <shachaf> help
04:27:24 <shachaf> didn't lambdabot have unlmabda at one point
04:27:26 <shachaf> as written by oerjan
04:27:31 <oerjan> @unlambda ``.H.ii
04:27:31 <lambdabot> Hi
04:27:35 <shachaf> ah
04:27:38 <shachaf> too easy
04:27:59 <shachaf> @unlamba `.øi
04:27:59 <lambdabot> unlambda: Unknown operator '\184'
04:28:33 <oerjan> i don't think it's utf-8 clean.
04:29:03 <oerjan> which was a good thing for my self-interpreter...
04:29:25 <shachaf> lambdabot has a Self interpreter too?
04:29:47 <oerjan> that pun was also too easy hth
04:30:22 <shachaf> it's ok, i have two swats in my scrollback
04:30:30 <\oren\> but does it have a c interpreter?
04:30:31 <shachaf> they'll keep me going
04:30:43 <oerjan> good, good
04:31:05 <oerjan> `! c printf("Hi!\n");
04:31:06 <shachaf> \oren\: do you have any exciting computer science for me today
04:31:33 <HackEgo> Does not compile.
04:31:37 <oerjan> *sigh*
04:32:00 <oerjan> i guess that feature was removed.
04:32:08 <oerjan> `cc printf("Hi!\n");
04:32:09 <\oren\> shachaf: not really, trying, possibly in vain, to generate a ttf that windows thinks is valid
04:32:10 <HackEgo> ​<stdin>:1:1: error: missing terminating " character \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
04:32:20 <oerjan> `cc printf("Hi!\\n");
04:32:23 <HackEgo> ​<stdin>:1:1: error: missing terminating " character \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
04:32:28 <oerjan> gah
04:32:47 <oerjan> i don't think that one has been very well written.
04:32:51 <oerjan> `cat bin/cc
04:32:53 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/sh \ echo "$@" | sed 's/\\/\n/g' | gcc -w -Wfatal-errors -std=c11 -O2 -x c - -o /tmp/a.out && /tmp/a.out
04:33:24 <oerjan> oh hm
04:33:44 <oerjan> ...it replaces \ by \n?
04:33:47 <oerjan> sheesh
04:33:52 <oerjan> `cat bin/c
04:33:52 <HackEgo> cat: bin/c: No such file or directory
04:34:10 <pikhq> I think it's intending to replace "\\" by '\n'.
04:34:13 <oerjan> there may have been yet another variant.
04:34:36 <oerjan> pikhq: yes. that still doesn't sound like a good idea.
04:34:59 <pikhq> `cc int puts(const char*);int main(){puts("Hello, world!");}
04:35:07 <HackEgo> Hello, world!
04:35:21 <oerjan> pikhq: the point is you cannot get an actual \ in there...
04:35:34 <oerjan> which is rather bad for c.
04:35:42 <\oren\> `` gcc -o/tmp/a.out -x c - <<<"int main(){puts("hello\n")}"; /tmp/a.out
04:35:49 <HackEgo> ​<stdin>: In function ‘main’: \ <stdin>:1:17: error: ‘hellon’ undeclared (first use in this function) \ <stdin>:1:17: note: each undeclared identifier is reported only once for each function it appears in \ <stdin>:1:24: error: expected ‘;’ before ‘}’ token \ /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: /tmp/a.out: No such file or directory
04:35:59 <\oren\> `` gcc -o/tmp/a.out -x c - <<<"int main(){puts("hello\\n")}"; /tmp/a.out
04:36:01 <shachaf> it should be s/ \\\\ /\n/, obviously.
04:36:04 <HackEgo> ​<stdin>: In function ‘main’: \ <stdin>:1:1: error: stray ‘\’ in program \ <stdin>:1:17: error: ‘hello’ undeclared (first use in this function) \ <stdin>:1:17: note: each undeclared identifier is reported only once for each function it appears in \ <stdin>:1:23: error: expected ‘)’ before ‘n’ \ <stdin>:1:25: error: expected
04:36:05 <myname> isn't there always digraphs?
04:36:15 <\oren\> `` gcc -o/tmp/a.out -x c - <<<"int main(){puts(\"hello\\n\")}"; /tmp/a.out
04:36:16 <oerjan> \oren\: `! already handles that case.
04:36:21 <HackEgo> ​<stdin>: In function ‘main’: \ <stdin>:1:27: error: expected ‘;’ before ‘}’ token \ /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: /tmp/a.out: No such file or directory
04:36:33 <\oren\> `` gcc -o/tmp/a.out -x c - <<<"int main(){puts(\"hello\\n\");}"; /tmp/a.out
04:36:41 <oerjan> `! c int main(){puts("hello\n")}
04:36:47 <HackEgo> hello
04:36:51 <HackEgo> Does not compile.
04:36:57 <oerjan> dammit
04:37:00 <oerjan> `! c int main(){puts("hello\\n")}
04:37:02 <\oren\> which one compiled?
04:37:04 <HackEgo> Does not compile.
04:37:11 <oerjan> NOW WHAT
04:37:26 <oerjan> `! c int main(){puts("hello\\n");}
04:37:31 <HackEgo> hello
04:37:34 <\oren\> your `! c dhould print the error message
04:38:05 <oerjan> \oren\: it's ported from old EgoBot, which had a feature that made the error message useless.
04:38:19 <oerjan> (namely, it tried to compile in two different ways)
04:39:51 <\oren\> `` gcc -o/tmp/a.out -x c - <<<'int main(){puts("hello\n");}'; /tmp/a.out
04:39:55 <HackEgo> hello
04:40:31 <\oren\> `` tcc -v
04:40:33 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 4: tcc: command not found
04:40:37 <\oren\> bah
04:40:55 <\oren\> with tcc you can have it compile and run in one command
04:41:17 <\oren\> i like tcc
04:41:45 <\oren\> i don't like the ttc
04:42:17 <oerjan> `` cd bin; ls c*
04:42:19 <HackEgo> calc \ card-by-name \ cAt \ catcat \ cats \ cc \ cd \ cdecl \ c++decl \ chroot \ ciol \ ciolf \ cmd \ cmds \ coins \ complain \ complaints \ ctof \ culprits \ culprits-c \ culprits-ng \ cwlprits
04:42:46 <oerjan> `file bin/ciol
04:42:48 <HackEgo> bin/ciol: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.26, BuildID[sha1]=0xac2b92fce7be4950dcebbfde3bfe866b1c1fb9aa, not stripped
04:42:59 <oerjan> i _think_ that's an esolang
04:43:08 <oerjan> `` cd bin; ls *c
04:43:10 <HackEgo> calc \ cc \ culprits-c \ ftoc \ gs2c \ luac \ qc \ rec \ runc
04:43:21 <oerjan> aha
04:43:30 <oerjan> `runc printf("Hi!\n");
04:43:33 <HackEgo> No output.
04:43:37 <oerjan> or not.
04:43:45 <oerjan> `file bin/runc
04:43:46 <HackEgo> bin/runc: Bourne-Again shell script, ASCII text executable
04:43:50 <oerjan> `cat bin/runc
04:43:51 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/bash \ t=`tempfile` \ echo -e "$@" | gcc -trigraphs -o $t -x c - 2>/dev/null && $t \ rm $t
04:44:08 <oerjan> `runc printf("Hi!\\n");
04:44:10 <HackEgo> No output.
04:44:13 <oerjan> oh.
04:44:32 <oerjan> of course that one doesn't allow single instructions either. or print errors.
04:44:58 <oerjan> so we have 3 variants, none of which do that thing.
04:45:15 <oerjan> (at least)
04:45:25 * oerjan sits back in lawn chair.
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06:37:42 <\oren\> oh geez, #KSPOfficial just became the trainspotting channel
06:38:37 <shachaf> \oren\: isn't that #trains
06:39:04 <\oren\> it is, but for some reason KSPOfficial isn't talking about KSP
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09:07:44 <Shubshub> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Gopher Add an Interpreter to one of the bots :3
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09:36:44 <fizzie> Yeah, our set of C-running things is pretty deficient.
09:37:36 <fizzie> That said, `! c *does* allow for "single instructions", sometimes.
09:37:39 <fizzie> `! c printf("hello");
09:37:44 <HackEgo> hello
09:38:44 <oerjan> wat
09:38:55 <oerjan> why didn't my version work...
09:39:32 <izabera> `! printf("Hi!\n");
09:39:34 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/printf("Hi!: not found
09:39:39 <izabera> `! c printf("Hi!\n");
09:39:42 <HackEgo> Does not compile.
09:39:45 <izabera> `! c printf("Hi!\\n");
09:39:51 <HackEgo> Hi!
09:40:04 <oerjan> hm i somehow never tried that with that command.
09:41:01 <fizzie> Any objections to fetching the https://github.com/izabera/candide stuff and replacing `cc with that?
09:41:12 <izabera> no lol
09:41:22 <fizzie> `fetch https://raw.githubusercontent.com/izabera/candide/master/configure
09:41:31 <HackEgo> 2016-07-10 08:41:24 URL:https://raw.githubusercontent.com/izabera/candide/master/configure [863/863] -> "configure" [1]
09:41:37 <fizzie> `fetch https://raw.githubusercontent.com/izabera/candide/master/candide-to-conf
09:41:39 <shachaf> `` type -a cc
09:41:40 <HackEgo> 2016-07-10 08:41:34 URL:https://raw.githubusercontent.com/izabera/candide/master/candide-to-conf [755/755] -> "candide-to-conf" [1]
09:41:42 <HackEgo> cc is /hackenv/bin/cc \ cc is /usr/bin/cc
09:41:50 <shachaf> cc doesn't seem like a good name hth
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09:41:56 <fizzie> It's fine.
09:42:02 <oerjan> well there's also runc
09:42:04 <fizzie> Nobody needs the actual cc for anything.
09:42:13 <fizzie> Yes, but it's called ,cc on ##c. :p
09:42:19 <oerjan> OKAY
09:42:31 <shachaf> i can think of a use for the actual cc
09:42:40 <fizzie> Then you can put in the full path.
09:42:56 <fizzie> `` bash ./configure
09:43:00 <oerjan> ok one objection: does it save files frequently
09:43:07 <HackEgo> ​/dev/fd/0:31:19: fatal error: uchar.h: No such file or directory \ compilation terminated.
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09:43:42 <fizzie> I don't think it does.
09:44:15 <fizzie> It has this fancy precompiled-headers trick that needs doing first. And also needs a bit of editing to get stuff from the command line.
09:44:15 <oerjan> well that went well.
09:44:40 <fizzie> I'll fix it. But I need to do breakfast now, apparently.
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09:47:45 <fizzie> (We've got some houseguests.)
09:51:08 <shachaf> @time fizzie
09:51:11 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Sun Jul 10 09:51:08 2016
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09:57:55 <fizzie> `` mv configure candide-to-conf share/
09:57:59 <HackEgo> No output.
09:58:14 <fizzie> `` sed -i -e '/uchar.h/d' share/configure
09:58:17 <HackEgo> No output.
09:58:30 <fizzie> `` ( cd share; bash ./configure )
09:58:47 <HackEgo> No output.
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09:59:48 <izabera> good thing you did it in a subshell
09:59:50 <fizzie> `` chmod a+x share/candide
09:59:52 <izabera> think of the consequences
09:59:52 <HackEgo> No output.
10:00:57 <fizzie> `` sed -i -e /^c=/s/.*/c="$*"/ share/candide
10:01:01 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 24: unknown option to `s'
10:01:21 <fizzie> `` sed -i -e '/^c=/s/.*/c="$*"/' share/candide
10:01:25 <HackEgo> No output.
10:01:48 <fizzie> `` ./share/candide 'printf("hello");'
10:01:51 <HackEgo> gcc: error: printf("hello");: No such file or directory
10:02:27 <izabera> u breakd it
10:03:06 <izabera> `paste ./share/candide
10:03:09 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/share/candide
10:03:26 <fizzie> Oh, it also uses the args on the command line.
10:04:23 <fizzie> Would be nice to support stuff like `cc -x -y --bloo printf("meh");
10:05:19 <fizzie> But that'd involve actual work, so I think I'll just drop that.
10:05:36 <izabera> do you want to pass those options to the compiler or to the compiled program?
10:05:45 <fizzie> The compiler.
10:05:49 <fizzie> That's how ,cc works.
10:06:08 <fizzie> `` sed -i -e 's/"${@--O0}"/-O0/' share/candide
10:06:11 <HackEgo> No output.
10:06:16 <fizzie> It'd look different, anyway, so can be done later.
10:06:22 <fizzie> `` ./share/candide 'printf("hello");'
10:06:30 <HackEgo> hello
10:08:28 <shachaf> Why not build in /tmp?
10:08:45 <shachaf> All these commits seem unnecessary.
10:08:52 <shachaf> Oh well, at least it's not autoconf.
10:08:59 <shachaf> By /tmp I mean tmp/.
10:09:00 <fizzie> I think you mean /hackenv/tmp.
10:09:02 <fizzie> Right.
10:09:10 <fizzie> Because it sticks the $PWD inside the resulting "binary".
10:09:26 <fizzie> As the location of the precompiled headers.
10:10:24 <fizzie> And `` mv tmp/foo share/foo is probably still the same as `` rm tmp/foo, which I probably would've forgotten when finished.
10:11:51 <shachaf> I think you`d´ve remembered.
10:15:55 <fizzie> `` c='-O2 --std=c99 printf("muh")'; args=""; while [[ "$c" =~ ^(-[^ ]*)\ (.*) ]]; do args="$args ${BASH_REMATCH[1]}"; c="${BASH_REMATCH[2]}"; done; echo "code [$c] args [$args]"
10:15:56 <HackEgo> code [printf("muh")] args [ -O2 --std=c99]
10:16:43 <fizzie> That looks at least plausible, if not particularly pretty. Though maybe a shifty thing would be better.
10:22:16 <fizzie> `` sed -i -e '12s/^/args=""; while [[ "$c" =~ ^(-[^ ]*)\\ (.*) ]]; do args="$args ${BASH_REMATCH[1]}"; c="${BASH_REMATCH[2]}"; done\n/' -e 's/-O0/${args--O0}/' share/candide # bleh
10:22:20 <HackEgo> No output.
10:22:37 <shachaf> why not sled
10:23:18 <fizzie> `` ./share/candide -O2 --std=c99 printf("I'm C99");
10:23:19 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: `./share/candide -O2 --std=c99 printf("I'm C99");'
10:23:28 <fizzie> `` ./share/candide '-O2 --std=c99 printf("I'm C99");'
10:23:29 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
10:23:37 <fizzie> I brokeded it again.
10:24:04 <fizzie> Oh, no -- I just can't quote.
10:24:12 <fizzie> `` ./share/candide '-O2 --std=c99 printf("whatever");'
10:24:18 <HackEgo> ​/dev/fd/0:1:48: error: one or more PCH files were found, but they were invalid \ /dev/fd/0:1:48: error: use -Winvalid-pch for more information \ /dev/fd/0:1:48: fatal error: headers: No such file or directory \ compilation terminated.
10:24:25 <fizzie> That's nice.
10:25:03 <fizzie> In retrospect, I'm not entirely sure about this precompiled trickery. At least it should have the fallback.
10:27:08 <izabera> yeah, the fox and the grapes
10:27:22 <fizzie> `` sed -e '1,+2d' -e '/SOURCE/,$d' share/configure > share/headers
10:27:26 <HackEgo> No output.
10:27:37 <izabera> y u no write it on your machine
10:27:47 <fizzie> `` ./share/candide '-O2 --std=c99 printf("whatever");'
10:28:10 <HackEgo> whatever
10:28:11 <fizzie> I didn't think there'd be this much to do, honestly.
10:29:19 <fizzie> The one thing it still needs is some way to do newlines (for preprocessor stuff) but one that fires only outside string/character literals.
10:30:34 <fizzie> `` rm share/configure share/candide-to-conf # hopefully won't need these any more
10:30:40 <HackEgo> No output.
10:37:08 <fizzie> `` c='#include <meh> \n #include <feh> \n printf("zuul\nbuul");'; echo "$c" | sed -e 's/\("[^"]*\)\\n\([^"]*"\)/\1~n\2/g' -e 's/\\n/\n/g' -e 's/\("[^"]*\)~n\([^"]*"\)/\1\\n\2/g'
10:37:09 <HackEgo> ​#include <meh> \ #include <feh> \ printf("zuul\nbuul");
10:37:14 <fizzie> Wonder if that would be good enough.
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10:40:46 <fizzie> Wouldn't work with multiple \n's inside a string literal, though. :/
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11:17:28 <izabera> can i get some feedback? https://github.com/izabera/inutility
11:18:00 <izabera> 24 mini programs so far, 1625 lines of code including the makefile
11:18:35 <int-e> . o O ( why are you reinventing busybox? )
11:18:42 <izabera> for fun!
11:18:55 <izabera> and profit if someone wants to pay me for it
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11:21:47 <int-e> somebody please stop me from playing that euclid game.
11:21:59 <izabera> int-e: stop playing that euclid game
11:23:14 <int-e> (progress: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/euclid.png ... and I'm not sure that all of these gold medels are actually possible since there is a bug that can be exploited to count fewer moves than have actually been made.)
11:23:22 <int-e> medals.
11:24:06 <int-e> (red numbers were added with gimp and indicate the target score)
11:25:47 <myname> i am surprised how it steadily gets better
11:26:58 <myname> there was a state where you could actually produce a perpendicular line by dividing a straight line in half
11:27:17 <int-e> Hmm, "it".
11:27:23 <int-e> ah.
11:28:11 <int-e> so there *is* reason to distrust those records, thanks.
11:28:53 <myname> you could also find the center of a circle by copying the cirle two times
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11:32:02 <int-e> though irritatingly the records I'm missing are the ones using just primitive tools... you'd think those would be more reliable. (I have not seriously thought about the regular pentagon yet)
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11:59:00 <\oren\> U-A684 HOW CAN I DRAW THIS
12:02:55 <int-e> it's a combination of з and ж isn't it.
12:03:52 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhwe agrees
12:05:42 <shachaf> ørꚅn
12:06:02 <shachaf> (that's intended to be oerjan, not \oren\, of course)
12:06:15 <shachaf> (maybe it's distorted enough to be ambiguous)
12:06:59 <int-e> `unidecode ꚅ
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12:07:54 <HackEgo> ​[U+A685 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER ZHWE]
12:08:15 <shachaf> oerjwhen?
12:08:38 <shachaf> børgeois
12:10:14 <FireFly> beware of the børg
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13:14:23 <\oren\> `u8tbl 0x3220 0x3230
13:15:20 <HackEgo> ​㈠㈡㈢㈣㈤㈥㈦㈧㈨㈩㈪㈫㈬㈭㈮㈯ \ ㈰
13:25:03 <izabera> did they add (character) for every possible character?
13:25:37 <\oren\> no, just a lot of them
13:25:42 <\oren\> also circles
13:26:10 <\oren\> http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U3200.pdf
13:27:03 <\oren\> http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U3300.pdf
13:28:00 <\oren\> those are the two blocks of "ridiculous characters for compatibility with JIS and KS standards"
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14:13:10 <\oren\> I'm going to generate a new ttf now
14:14:52 <fizzie> int-e: "GeoGebra - Error: Please check your input: Undefined variable pointRight"
14:19:06 <izabera> yeah int-e fix yo shit
14:19:39 <int-e> fizzie: you can click those away and continue playing. (also it's not my code)
14:19:54 <int-e> but yes, these popups are really annoying.
14:21:14 <int-e> (since they basically appear every time you click)
14:21:47 <fizzie> So far it's only been happening in one level.
14:22:01 <fizzie> Also I'm going to be unhappy if I end up getting equally hooked up on this game.
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15:07:46 <int-e> wee I broke a record
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15:14:01 <newbie> hello?
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15:24:33 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAARGH!
15:24:43 <boily> missed a `relcopportunity...
15:38:58 <int-e> so borry
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15:56:17 <\oren\> ugh, damn fontforge
16:05:32 <boily> he\\oren\. what are red characters?
16:06:34 <boily> also, there's something fishy going on with 南 and 西 in your mahjongcharacters hth
16:15:37 <int-e> `unidecode 
16:16:01 <HackEgo> U+F813 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: ef a0 93 UTF-16BE: f813 Decimal: &#63507; \  () \ Uppercase: U+F813 \ Category: Co (Other, Private Use) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
16:16:31 <int-e> boily: perhaps all red characters are private use ones
16:17:07 <int-e> `unidecode 𝔆
16:17:17 <HackEgo> U+1D506 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: f0 9d 94 86 UTF-16BE: d835dd06 Decimal: &#120070; \ 𝔆 (𝔆) \ Uppercase: U+1D506 \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned)
16:17:31 <int-e> hmm, not that one.
16:17:57 <int-e> red could also be a fading out green :P
16:19:26 <\oren\> they're all either private use or nonexistent
16:22:59 <boily> `unidecode 𐀀
16:23:02 <HackEgo> ​[U+10000 LINEAR B SYLLABLE B008 A]
16:30:53 <\oren\> IT CRASHED
16:31:31 <int-e> maybe you drew a bad character that needed to be punished
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17:00:20 <wob_jonas> Wow. SGDQ amazing this summer.
17:00:44 <wob_jonas> Seriously good runs.
17:00:50 <wob_jonas> (Also a few bad ones.)
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17:29:22 <\oren\> YAY FONTFORGE DID NOT CRASH!
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17:34:09 <gamemanj> ...this is april 1st, right?
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17:54:50 <zzo38> I think not.
17:56:35 <fizzie> int-e: Bluh. Is there any way to see of your existing medals whether they're primitive or not?
17:56:57 <wob_jonas> what medals?
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17:57:55 <int-e> fizzie: only when you have two of them
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17:58:12 <int-e> (then the left one is the all tools one)
17:58:34 <fizzie> Meh. I can't remember whether I've done some primitives-only. Though I guess most likely not.
18:01:21 <int-e> oh and for most levels you can compare the scores to the best known ones
18:02:03 <wob_jonas> um, what's this?
18:02:12 <fizzie> wob_jonas: http://euclidthegame.com/
18:02:46 <fizzie> I have a 3-move medal for level 4 but also no recollection of how it happened, and when I went to revisit it again, I always seem to take 4 moves now.
18:05:30 <wob_jonas> how does that thing work?
18:06:15 <wob_jonas> I mean, how do you draw a circle with a given length?
18:06:19 <int-e> click click click curse click click click
18:06:49 <int-e> you have to pick a radius by selecting two points (or creating them)
18:07:16 <wob_jonas> int-e: um, but I select three points in what order?
18:07:25 <wob_jonas> I want a center and a distance that doesn't start from the center
18:07:28 <wob_jonas> to copy a segment
18:07:34 <int-e> wob_jonas: you'll get that later
18:07:57 <wob_jonas> wait, I need to unlock a tool to get a fucking compass?
18:07:58 <int-e> the primitive circle is a collapsing circle... it can't copy lengths.
18:08:01 <wob_jonas> how is it even euclid that way?
18:08:10 <wob_jonas> I mean, I know it can be emulated with a collapsing compass
18:08:10 <int-e> err, compass.
18:08:15 <wob_jonas> but then they shouldn't call it euclid
18:08:23 <wob_jonas> because that's not the primitives Euclid decided are canon
18:10:25 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compass-and-straightedge_construction "The compass is assumed to collapse when lifted from the page, so may not be directly used to transfer distances."
18:10:30 <fizzie> See, even Wikipedia thinks that's canon.
18:10:38 <wob_jonas> whoa...
18:10:39 <wob_jonas> strang
18:10:52 <fizzie> "The modern compass generally does not collapse and several modern constructions use this feature. It would appear that the modern compass is a "more powerful" instrument than the ancient collapsing compass. However, by Proposition 2 of Book 1 of Euclid's Elements, no power is lost by using a collapsing compass."
18:11:16 <wob_jonas> ok
18:11:22 <wob_jonas> I didn't know Euclid worked that way
18:11:35 <fizzie> int-e: There's something wrong. I did level 4 with "all tools" in 3 moves, and it said "perfect, minumum number of moves", but my medals still say "(3) (4)".
18:12:05 <wob_jonas> this is giving me error messages
18:12:10 <wob_jonas> on level 5
18:12:13 <fizzie> Two of the levels did.
18:12:24 <int-e> fizzie: the bar only updates when you switch levels
18:12:56 <fizzie> int-e: I did. It's still that way. But I guess the (3) is then the all-tools, and maybe I got confused and thought otherwise.
18:13:22 <wob_jonas> crazy game
18:13:27 <wob_jonas> thank you for linking to it
18:13:29 <int-e> fizzie: the first one is the all tools number, yes
18:14:55 <int-e> (which, irritatingly, requires at least one of the advanced tools to be used)
18:15:56 <wob_jonas> level 6 is the first where I'd really want to use a non-collapsing compass
18:15:59 <wob_jonas> would be so much easier
18:17:18 <int-e> wait till you get to level 11
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18:18:13 <wob_jonas> I can't imagine how I do this level 6 without a collapsible compass in only 4 moves of primitives (probably pretty obvious in hindsight)
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18:19:32 <fizzie> I just tried to add a primitive-moves solution to 6, and used 7 moves. I'm not sure I can be bothered to finish all-primitives.
18:20:24 <wob_jonas> also, can't I make a full line through two points in one step?
18:20:28 <wob_jonas> that's just strange
18:20:39 <int-e> wob_jonas: agreed
18:24:05 <fizzie> Also presumably from Euclid's list of postulates.
18:24:08 <wob_jonas> the interface is quite well done though
18:24:28 <fizzie> It's well done when it's not throwing up error messages on every operation.
18:24:32 <wob_jonas> yes
18:25:25 <int-e> wob_jonas: the lines thing leads to some awkward moments, for example in level 8, where the optimal solution, as far as I can tell, requires moving the initial points around
18:26:02 <wob_jonas> int-e: you can move the canvas, and even zoom, it seems
18:26:18 <int-e> you can move the points themselves
18:27:42 <int-e> panning and zooming was to be expected...
18:28:04 <\oren\> I've uploaded a new version
18:28:26 <fizzie> It links to https://www.geogebra.org/ which is I guess the toolkit it's built on.
18:28:35 <wob_jonas> huih, it says "well done" but doesn't offer me to move to the next level
18:28:39 <wob_jonas> from level 8
18:29:11 <fizzie> It says "well done" occasionally for individual points, if that's what you're seeing.
18:29:28 <wob_jonas> ah!
18:29:33 <wob_jonas> I actually have to draw the segment
18:29:43 <wob_jonas> even if there's already a half-line there
18:29:59 <fizzie> Well, that's a bit silly.
18:30:21 <fizzie> I wouldn't know, the only way I've done level 8 is the silly way.
18:32:35 <\oren\> thenew characters:
18:32:37 <\oren\> ㋀㋁㋂㋃㋄㋅㋆㋇㋈㋉㋊㋋㉈㉉㉊㉋㉌㉍㉎㉏㉐㍿㎍㎎㎏㎐㎑㎒㎓㎔㎕㎖㎗㎘
18:32:40 <\oren\> ㏠㏡㏢㏣㏤㏥㏦㏧㏨㏩㏪㏫㏬㏭㏮㏯㏰㏱㏲㏳㏴㏵㏶㏷㏸㏹㏺㏻㏼㏽㏾
18:32:43 <\oren\> ㊀㊁㊂㊃㊄㊅㊆㊇㊈㊉㊊㊋㊌㊍㊎㊏㊐㈠㈡㈢㈣㈤㈥㈦㈧㈨㈩㈪㈫㈬㈭㈮㈯㈰
18:32:46 <\oren\> ꝽꝾꝿꞀꞁꞂꞃꞄꞅꞆꞇꞈ꞉꞊ꞋꞌꞍꞎꞏꞐꞑꞒꞓꞔꞕꞖꞗꞘꞙꞚꞛꞜꞝꞞꞟꞠꞡꞢꞣꞤꞥꞦꞧꞨꞩꞪꞫꞬꞭꞮꞰꞱꞲꞳꞴꞵꞶꞷꟷꟸꟹꟺꟻꟼꟽꟾꟿ
18:32:50 <\oren\> ꙞꙟꙠꙡꙢꙣꙤꙥꙦꙧꚀꚁꚂꚃꚄꚅꚆꚇꚈꚉꚊꚋꚌꚍꚎꚏꚐꚑꚒꚓꚔꚕꚖꚗꚘꚙꚚꚛ։֊ՙ՚՛՜՝՞՟
18:32:53 <\oren\> ⎾⎿⏀⏁⏂⏃⏄⏅⏆⏇⏈⏉⏊⏋⏌⏍⏎⏏⏐⏑⏒⏓⏔⏕⏖⏗⏘⏙⏚⏛⏜⏝⏞⏟⏠⏡⏢⏣
18:33:09 <fizzie> Théoden Ednew.
18:33:16 <fizzie> (Just free-associating from "thenew".)
18:34:35 <wob_jonas> ah great, so level 9 is to do a non-collapsible compass
18:34:40 <wob_jonas> I hope it gives that as a tool then
18:36:38 <wob_jonas> argh! why isn't the reset button on the toolbar? it keeps putting down points when I try to click there
18:36:41 <int-e> yes it does, fully functional after level 11
18:41:56 <\oren\> with these characters you can give the date: ㍻28年㋆㏩㈰
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18:43:53 <wob_jonas> gold medal is difficult
18:44:44 <wob_jonas> um
18:44:52 <wob_jonas> is there an interface to go to the first level I haven't solved yet?
18:45:01 <wob_jonas> because it lists only the levels I solved on the left sidebar
18:45:36 <int-e> you can guess the link: http://euclidthegame.com/Tutorial/ http://euclidthegame.com/Level<nnn>/
18:45:37 <wob_jonas> I can type the number in the url, but there should be an easier way
18:45:42 <int-e> yes!
18:45:59 <int-e> but it assumes that you can only reach a level if you have solved the previous one
18:46:12 <int-e> I initially missed the tutorial that way.
18:50:27 <wob_jonas> is there a midpoint or mid-perpendicular level? there could be one early
18:51:02 <wob_jonas> hmm, level 16 doesn't say "well done" when I construct the center of the circle
18:51:25 <wob_jonas> I can't resize the canvas, right?
18:51:59 <int-e> you can... shift+scroll wheel of the mouse?
18:52:08 <wob_jonas> oh, there is a midpoint
18:52:24 <wob_jonas> int-e: that seems to zoom for me
18:52:31 <wob_jonas> not resize the area on the screen
18:52:51 <int-e> sorry.
18:53:01 <wob_jonas> I'm using a lot of non-primitives. it feels like cheating
18:53:12 <int-e> too much geometry; the effect is "similar" ;-)
18:54:46 <int-e> actually zooming the whole page works for me (firefox)
18:54:55 <wob_jonas> ah
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18:57:56 <wob_jonas> ah, first interesting level
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19:06:16 <wob_jonas> second interesting level
19:08:58 <int-e> the one that was most rewarding to solve, so far, was the primitive version of the incircle one
19:09:21 <int-e> (level 15)
19:09:31 <wob_jonas> int-e: I see
19:10:01 <wob_jonas> I'm doing level 24, any any of these so far are easy if you just want any solution, not a low move count one
19:10:29 <wob_jonas> but I think that will change in higher levels
19:11:11 <wob_jonas> are there keyboard shortcuts for the tools?
19:12:06 <wob_jonas> ah! regular pentagon (level 25)
19:12:09 <wob_jonas> getting nontrivial
19:12:29 <int-e> 25 is the last one though
19:13:38 <wob_jonas> is it? aren't there like 60 levels?
19:14:59 <wob_jonas> hmm... let me think, how do I construct one of these beasts
19:15:22 <int-e> there are 50 medals, 2 per level (minus 1 for level 1, plus 1 for the tutorial)
19:15:53 <wob_jonas> I did get a medal for level 1
19:15:57 <wob_jonas> or at least it shows up
19:16:03 <wob_jonas> a gold medal in fact
19:17:21 <wob_jonas> I'm still trying to think of how to construct a regular pentagon without going insane with a hundred of points on the screen
19:17:30 <wob_jonas> (don't spoil it)
19:18:57 <wob_jonas> the record is 10, so there has to be a way
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19:21:43 <wob_jonas> If I look up something in a geometry book for it, is that cheating?
19:21:58 <wob_jonas> I mean, it's on my shelf just right here
19:30:09 <int-e> it's up to you
19:30:27 <int-e> I remembered a construction, that's not really better than looking one up :P
19:30:55 <wob_jonas> I could do this procedure, but then I wouldn't naturally end up with the pentagon in the given circle, so I'd have to copy the angle
19:32:23 <wob_jonas> no wait, I could construct it so the angle appears there
19:32:45 <wob_jonas> is this one of those levels that give an error message each step?
19:32:50 <fizzie> Yes.
19:32:59 <wob_jonas> damn
19:33:25 <fizzie> 5 and 25.
19:43:08 <wob_jonas> I'm still trying to beat 2
19:43:09 <wob_jonas> 25
19:43:39 <int-e> do you have any opinion on solvability of level 14 (tangent at a point) in 4 primitive steps?
19:43:55 <fizzie> (I didn't realize until now that you could move the initial points.)
19:44:11 <wob_jonas> int-e: that says the record is 4
19:44:11 <int-e> err, in 3... I can do 4.
19:44:12 <wob_jonas> um
19:44:15 <wob_jonas> the record is 3
19:44:16 <wob_jonas> that yes
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19:44:55 <int-e> And I'm having a really hard time believing that is possible.
19:45:08 <wob_jonas> int-e: let me see
19:45:34 <fizzie> I haven't really managed any optimal primitive solutions ('cept levels 2 and 3).
19:45:41 <fizzie> So I don't feel qualified to have an opinion.
19:46:25 <wob_jonas> Does it give any obvious feedback somewhere for whether I've used only primitive tools?
19:46:35 <wob_jonas> It prints the number of moves, but not whether they're primitive
19:46:47 <int-e> no, it doesn't.
19:48:04 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/euclid.png is my progress (I've been on this since Tuesday, I think... spent way too many hours thinking about these things)
19:48:45 <fizzie> int-e: What does the red scribbled 5 mean for level 12?
19:49:02 <int-e> that the official record is worse than my own solution
19:49:48 <int-e> (but I moved one of the initial points... if one doesn't, it's one more step)
19:50:21 <int-e> (otoh, some of the best solutions seem to require moving the initial points... so... I guess 4 would be accepted)
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19:50:55 <wob_jonas> I have moved points, but I haven't done solutions where that's required yet
19:51:26 <int-e> the best primitve solution for level 8 would be my first candidate... pretty sure it's required there
19:51:27 <wob_jonas> and if you have a mouse that can move to complex coordinates, you probably never need to move
19:52:02 <int-e> (but the branching factor of these constructions is surprisingly big so my intuition may have pruned some viable route of attack)
19:52:21 <wob_jonas> there's one level where you would have to move, but the default placement is good so you don't have to
19:53:19 <int-e> (in level 8 the problem is that you only have a short segment of what ought to be a line... and the final result needs to be an actual segment. you can save one ray by moving the initial points)
19:53:41 <FireFly> hm, I think I've played this before
19:54:11 <wob_jonas> ah, I see, level 8 might be helped by moving I guess
19:54:12 <wob_jonas> let me try
19:56:17 <wob_jonas> I dunno
19:56:22 <wob_jonas> I should solve the pentagon first
20:01:21 <wob_jonas> argh! I keep not getting a pentagon
20:02:08 <wob_jonas> oh right
20:08:54 <wob_jonas> no, this doesn't work either
20:08:58 <wob_jonas> I have to find some other way
20:09:49 <wob_jonas> oh I see, I'm stupid, it can't work
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20:20:01 <wob_jonas> argh! frustrating
20:21:48 -!- tromp_ has joined.
20:23:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Boyss * New user account
20:24:26 <wob_jonas> 25 is HARD!
20:24:35 <wob_jonas> I know there's supposed to be an easy way, but I can't figure it out
20:24:53 -!- Boyss has joined.
20:25:44 <Boyss> Hello
20:26:48 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:29:59 <\oren\> `relcome Boyss
20:30:57 <Boyss> I have created a language but my skills in english aren't great. Will it be very bad if article on the wiki will contain some issues?
20:31:19 <izabera> it's a wiki, people can fix it
20:31:34 <HackEgo> No output.
20:32:08 <Boyss> k thx
20:33:14 <\oren\> HackEgo: YOU TRAITOR
20:34:08 <\oren\> `` ls bin/relcome
20:34:13 <HackEgo> bin/relcome
20:34:22 <\oren\> `` cat bin/relcome
20:34:24 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | rainwords
20:34:31 <wob_jonas> oren: it's just timeout, redo it
20:34:39 <\oren\> `relcome Boyss
20:34:40 <wob_jonas> oren: process was killed for timeout, that's why no output
20:34:43 <HackEgo> Boyss: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
20:34:48 <wob_jonas> ARGH MY EYES
20:35:34 <myname> THE GOGGLES, THEY DO NOTHING
20:36:02 <\oren\> I remember "is it a good idea to microwave this"
20:36:06 <wob_jonas> myname: yes
20:48:08 <gamemanj> Is it a good idea to microwave the server on which HackEgo runs on as punishment for the rainbow?
20:49:33 <izabera> it sure can't slow it down
20:52:10 <int-e> wob_jonas: I'm not sure there's an easy way... all constructions of the regular pentagon that I've seen do something with the golden ratio.
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20:53:37 <int-e> wob_jonas: I mean look at this list: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/TrigonometryAnglesPi5.html
20:55:35 <Boyss> is there yet a language where the whole code is only names of variables?
20:55:52 <wob_jonas> int-e: well sure it has to do with the golden ratio
21:04:48 -!- spiette has joined.
21:04:52 <zzo38> Boyss: Make one up.
21:04:56 <zzo38> (If you know how)
21:05:35 <wob_jonas> Boyss: do the one-instruction computers where all the arguments are memory addresses count?
21:05:42 <wob_jonas> s/argument/operand/
21:06:13 <Boyss> @zzo38 that's the plan i was only wondering if it would be cool to name it like "only names of variables"
21:06:13 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
21:06:52 <Boyss> zzo38: that's the plan i was only wondering if it would be cool to name it like "only names of variables"
21:07:04 <zzo38> wob_jonas: I thought of that, but that includes jumps too, so I don't know if it is how Boyss wants; also if they have self-modifying codes
21:08:11 <Boyss> wob_jonas: idk (yet) but thanks for trace
21:08:17 <wob_jonas> zzo38: you can get one without jumps if there's an implicit loop around the whole thing (and possible conditional execution but that's not necessary), though it might be ugly and feel cheating (such as if it's based on a single instruction that does too many things or uses magical memory addresses)
21:08:24 <zzo38> Also if it uses relative addressing, it look like it isn't really just variable names, to me.
21:08:52 <zzo38> However, I do believe that such a programming language that Boyss is asking for would be a OISC, just not the existing one.
21:08:52 <wob_jonas> zzo38: my undocumented stupid single-instruction language uses absolute addressing, but it also has special registers
21:09:14 <wob_jonas> um, special memory-mapped registers that is
21:09:19 <zzo38> Document it please.
21:09:31 <wob_jonas> nah, it's a stupid one
21:09:33 <wob_jonas> I should make a better one
21:09:46 <zzo38> O, OK, then make a better one and document the better one please.
21:09:50 <wob_jonas> maybe
21:10:51 <wob_jonas> doesn't one of ais's languages, like 3SP or those permutation thingies, already work though?
21:11:37 <wob_jonas> Boyss: does it have to be Turing-complete or something? or would a language with the power level of about HQ9+ count?
21:11:52 <zzo38> I like TOGA computer, but that one must include instruction labels as well as variable names
21:12:12 <Boyss> wob_jonas: ofc it would be pretty easy if it didn't have to be TC
21:14:02 <zzo38> However I think that a harvard TOGA computer could be implemented by 74xx series without so much difficulty (it won't be Turing-complete of course); you need a presettable binary counter, the ROM, RAM, clock input, and a few other gates.
21:15:04 <wob_jonas> wait
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21:15:55 <wob_jonas> Boyas: would it count if the source code is all variables separated by spaces or newlines, so that there are multiple instructions that are chosen from how many variables are on a line? like, a one-arg instruction, a two-arg instruction, a three-arg instruction, and a four-arg instruction?
21:17:01 <zzo38> O, so in that case then it isn't OISC
21:17:20 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yes, but OISC isn't strictly what Boyss asked
21:17:41 <wob_jonas> you could also have non-oisc by having the first appearance of the variable be special (like it's a definition, and later it's a use)
21:19:24 <zzo38> I know that
21:19:27 <wob_jonas> more easily, if there are pre-defined primitives, but none have special syntax, so each could be defined in the language under another name, and maybe even the name can be shadowed by other names, then do those names count as variables?
21:19:36 <zzo38> I made a mistake by saying it must be OISC
21:20:31 <zzo38> But I was thinking that the program would simply consist of a list of variable names, where a variable name is like a JavaScript symbol value
21:20:32 <int-e> let the first variable be application, the second be S and the third be K...
21:20:54 <int-e> (cheating... but what, exactly, is the definition of a variable name?)
21:23:04 <int-e> you could even make it a bit more interesting by allowing definitions of new combinators A S K I A A S K K (A=application, S = S, K = K, I = S K K, ...)
21:24:08 <int-e> also, something forth-like could work
21:24:47 <wob_jonas> int-e: I was thinking of First, but it has too much syntax built-in to make me count everything a variable
21:25:19 <wob_jonas> hmm, is First not on the wiki? or do I know the name wrong?
21:25:40 <wob_jonas> name's first, and it's not on the wiki yet because it's in the todo at http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:B_jonas
21:31:47 <wob_jonas> int-e: otoh, eodermdrone without input would need two different separators, but it would still count as an oisc
21:32:06 <wob_jonas> I mean eodermdrone without input or output
21:32:41 <quintopia> those permutation thingies? MiniMAX?
21:33:18 <wob_jonas> wait
21:33:49 <wob_jonas> how about a non-self-modifying string rewriting language? still two separators, but you could count the characters in the strings variables, and it's still an oisc
21:34:05 <wob_jonas> with fixed string replacement
21:35:52 <shachaf> oerjan: is the rot13 of ø ̷b ?
21:36:46 <quintopia> are we trying to minimize number of symbols?
21:37:39 <quintopia> oh trting to make it all variable names
21:37:40 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I think the rot13 of ø is ø and if you have a text with lots of numbers or ø or other characters that rot13 passes through then you should use a different substitution cipher
21:37:57 <quintopia> id say 3sp does qualify
21:38:16 <shachaf> > map (\x -> (x + 13) `mod` 10) [0..9]
21:38:18 <lambdabot> [3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2]
21:38:30 <shachaf> Obviously that's how you rot13 digits.
21:39:09 <quintopia> obvi
21:39:53 <wob_jonas> quintopia: 3SP is not known to be Turing-complete, but I think it might not count even if we know it was
21:39:54 <quintopia> although, rot5 would more in the spirig of the cipher
21:40:49 <quintopia> why not bjonas?
21:40:55 <wob_jonas> Boyss: I think you nerd sniped me with that simple question
21:41:21 <wob_jonas> quintopia: I'm not sure, maybe it would actually count
21:41:50 <Boyss> wob_jonas sorry I'll try to make it easy soon
21:42:44 <wob_jonas> quintopia: ok, I guess I'm stupid, 3SP would count if we knew it was Turing-complete
21:43:24 <quintopia> wob_jonas: its totally a semantic question. do we distinguish between "variable name" and "memory address" or not?
21:45:03 <quintopia> it is almost certainly tc
21:45:14 <wob_jonas> quintopia: I dunno
21:47:26 <quintopia> i think alex has like 95% of a bct to 3sp compiler
21:47:54 <wob_jonas> "95%" hehe
21:49:18 <Boyss> is there a proper name for binary "digits" in english?
21:49:31 <wob_jonas> bits
21:49:34 <Boyss> oh
21:49:44 <wob_jonas> or do you mean digit numerals?
21:49:45 <Boyss> thanks thats the one
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21:52:25 <wob_jonas> some people call hexadecimal digits "hexits" so maybe we could call binary ones "binits"
21:53:27 <myname> lol @ name for binary digits
21:53:36 <FireFly> I'd just call them digits
21:56:27 <Boyss> thanks
21:58:28 <izabera> @tell fizzie people said you wrote this, can you explain it? #define container_of(ptr, type, member) (type *)((char *)(1 ? (ptr) : &((type *)0)->member) - offsetof(type, member))
21:58:29 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:00:39 <shachaf> @tell boily I've forgotten. What are your approximate coördinates and body weigh?
22:00:39 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:01:38 <izabera> @tell fizzie nevermind, they showed me the logs
22:01:38 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:05:29 <myname> i alsondisagree with rot5. since 13 and 5 are both relatively örime, there should be an X with rotX satisfying both digits and letters
22:07:42 <int-e> seriously, you want rot-65?
22:11:20 <Boyss> Is there an easy way to format my whole code to code on wiki (with spaces at the left)? Should i even paste the implementation in the article?
22:13:23 <myname> int-e: why not?
22:21:53 <int-e> I'm sure there's a good reason, give me a couple of years to come up with one...
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22:23:03 <wob_jonas> Boyss: just put a space before each line? usually works, depending on what's in your code. if it's not enough, add some <nowiki></nowiki> around parts that are interpreted as wiki syntax
22:24:44 <Boyss> thank you i meant like without clicking bc it's not that short. I have done that by hand but in the preview it doesn't show my double '
22:25:19 <wob_jonas> Boyss: use <nowiki></nowiki> for that
22:25:47 <Boyss> i get it now thanks
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22:30:54 <kozisyr> How does one choose a programming paradigm that best solves a problem---what's a good strategy, method, to follow?
22:31:34 <myname> don't do oop. done.
22:31:36 <wob_jonas> kozisyr: just use the latest and greatest fancy magic bullet paradigm, it solves everything
22:32:32 <kozisyr> heh heh
22:32:44 <kozisyr> but seriously
22:33:03 <wob_jonas> I dunno
22:33:10 <wob_jonas> maybe you need a good meta-paradigm
22:33:17 <wob_jonas> I don't have those
22:33:17 <Boyss> in a article I made a list of steps like how does the language work and in the preview all my newlines are gone <nowiki> doesn't help. How to fix that? I looked at other articles and there it worked
22:33:52 <wob_jonas> Boyss: do not indent if you want newlines to work
22:34:12 <wob_jonas> just use starting * for bullet list, or starting # for numbered list
22:34:20 <wob_jonas> or some html tags work too
22:36:04 <Boyss> I'll try that
22:38:08 <Boyss> Could you please show me an example of a numbered list?
22:38:20 <wob_jonas> #foo
22:38:21 <wob_jonas> #bar
22:39:50 <Boyss> oh god sorry i forgot to erase my <nowiki> from there ... Thank you for help
22:46:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Onov]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=47342 * Boyss * (+3712) There is a language called ONOV
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22:51:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Onov]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47343&oldid=47342 * Boyss * (+0) Added more information about which lenghts of code will produce infinite cat programs
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22:53:38 <Boyss> Thank you all for helping me I finished the article it would be cool if you checked it out
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23:39:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Motoku * New user account
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23:41:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47344&oldid=47298 * Motoku * (+99) added link to brainfuck interpreter
23:47:44 <oerjan> <shachaf> I think you`d´ve remembered. <-- my experience says one always remembers - 1-10 seconds too late.
23:49:26 <shachaf> oerjan `neener´
23:49:30 <shachaf> :
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