←2016-07-10 2016-07-11 2016-07-12→ ↑2016 ↑all
00:07:31 <quintopia> shachaf: do you have the slanted apostrophes keymapped or something?
00:08:27 <oerjan> <FireFly> beware of the børg <-- resistænce is futile. yøu will be åssimilæted.
00:09:24 <oerjan> quintopia: maybe he's using an apple product and he can't _avoid_ making them
00:09:35 <quintopia> oerjan: wat
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00:09:50 <quintopia> is that really a thing
00:10:13 <oerjan> didn't you see the complaint about getting smart quotes when cutting and pasting JSON.
00:10:33 <oerjan> quintopia: well, in spirit of exaggeration, at least.
00:11:01 <quintopia> no
00:11:10 <oerjan> (or wasn't that on this channel? i think it was here, but i could be confusing with reddit.)
00:11:30 <quintopia> true this channel is like...identical to reddit eh
00:12:04 <oerjan> quintopia: it was \oren\ two days ago.
00:12:29 <oerjan> 11:59:35 <\oren\> We had problems recently with spamert quotation marks showing up in JSON
00:12:32 <oerjan> 11:59:52 <\oren\> because apple are idiots
00:12:35 <oerjan> 12:00:29 <\oren\> who subsitute quotes with smart quotes when you copypaste text from one window to anohter
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00:13:22 <oerjan> quintopia: i've not seen that much MtG discussion on reddit so clearly you are speaking nonsense hth
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00:13:23 <shachaf> quintopia: it's called a backtick hth
00:14:27 -!- oerjan has set topic: The intradisciplinary hub of solidity matrices and esoteric magic card design and deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
00:14:44 <oerjan> now much more accurate.
00:15:16 <quintopia> oerjan: you can tell when i'm being sarcastic when what i'm saying sounds like nonsense hth
00:15:39 * oerjan vaguely suspects the topic may have said something like that before.
00:15:49 <quintopia> shachaf: one of them is. do you call the other one a "forward tick"?
00:15:50 <oerjan> quintopia: hey it didn't seem like _total_ nonsense.
00:16:08 <quintopia> oerjan: i also sometimes flag sarcasm with "eh"
00:16:10 <shachaf> quintopia: Oh, the other one.
00:16:21 <shachaf> `icode ´
00:16:39 <oerjan> quintopia: i just thought you'd been conversing too much with canadians.
00:17:20 <quintopia> oerjan: not enough conversing with canadians, unfortunately. perhaps i shall move to canada to increase the quantity of canadian conversation?
00:17:22 <HackEgo> ​[U+00B4 ACUTE ACCENT]
00:17:23 <oerjan> quintopia: anyway it was the kind of comment that could have been on reddit.
00:17:41 <quintopia> fair enough
00:17:52 <oerjan> quintopia: yes, but that may not always work, see `? oren
00:17:57 <oerjan> `? oren
00:17:58 <shachaf> quintopia: I just have a cute accent.
00:18:05 <HackEgo> oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a.
00:18:37 <quintopia> shachaf: not as cute as pikhcute
00:18:38 <oerjan> shachaf: do you actually
00:18:55 <shachaf> oerjan: Hmm, how can I tell?
00:19:17 <quintopia> shachaf: record yourself. send it to oerjan. i'll accept his judgment.
00:19:23 <oerjan> you probably cannot. this needs a native american english speaker.
00:19:33 <shachaf> Well, some people in this channel have heard my accent.
00:19:43 * oerjan noticed half way through that "english speaker" was not redundant.
00:19:44 <pikhq> I'm not sure what makes an accent "cute" though.
00:19:59 <shachaf> I guess you're saying mine isn't.
00:20:06 <quintopia> oerjan: native americans did not traditionally speak english hth. (their english is also not exceptional or exceptionable.)
00:21:01 * oerjan sicks a purple people eater on quintopia
00:21:03 <oerjan> *sics
00:21:24 <quintopia> sicks [sic]
00:21:31 <quintopia> (why do you think they're purple?)
00:21:49 <shachaf> Don't sic oerjan's spelling.
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00:22:33 <quintopia> can i sick it?
00:23:07 <shachaf> <quintopia> can i sick [sic] it?
00:23:10 <oerjan> sic transit gloria mundi
00:23:59 <quintopia> ...now i want to find a story with a character called gloria mundi who dies in the end
00:24:14 <oerjan> quintopia: i think that pun has been made.
00:24:24 <quintopia> oerjan: in full-length story form?
00:24:47 <quintopia> i wouldn't be surprised, but i want to read it myself
00:24:55 <oerjan> no but apparently as an album https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_Transit_Gloria_Mundi
00:25:53 <quintopia> ideally it would be a story where *no one* comments on the fact that gloria mundi is passing away, everyone is just appropriately sad. bonus points if it is *actually* sad
00:27:22 <oerjan> 'A New York Daily News story about the 1980 state transit bailout was published under the headline "Sick Transit's Glorious Monday."'
00:29:56 <quintopia> ....now that is a glorious pun
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00:30:04 <quintopia> whatever happened to the NYDN i wonder
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00:51:18 <zzo38> I have designed some Magic: the Gathering cards too though
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00:56:52 <quintopia> zzo38: did you do the art?
00:57:33 <zzo38> No, just the text and name. In some cases there is favortext and in some cases there is suggestions for art, though.
00:58:23 <shachaf> favortext?
00:58:33 <shachaf> you're doing us a big favor, writing that
00:59:10 <quintopia> zzo38: have you ever tried to do the art yourself?
00:59:13 <quintopia> or any art?
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01:13:23 <zzo38> No I have not done
01:14:11 <zzo38> But it is OK if other people want to make art, or even other version of favour texts, to write comment on my file.
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02:20:27 <shachaf> oerjan: do you endorse the views of the other #esoteric
02:24:42 <zzo38> Maybe there are more than one views so you have to depend what views?
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02:33:24 <oerjan> shachaf: i still have not checked it out hth
02:34:19 <oerjan> although i suspect i would only endorse a fragment of them.
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03:01:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47345&oldid=47193 * * (+4) /* Factorial */
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03:08:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47346&oldid=47345 * * (-4) /* Factorial */
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03:28:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Calcutape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47347&oldid=47333 * Darkrifts * (+18) /* Sample programs */
03:29:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Calcutape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47348&oldid=47347 * Darkrifts * (+103)
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03:39:15 <zzo38> If you know what such views would be, say so in order to answer such questions more satisfactorily.
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03:40:08 <shachaf> zzo38: Have you invented a better query language than SQL?
03:43:05 <quintopia> whats wrong with set-builder notation as a query language?
03:43:41 <shachaf> It's limited.
03:50:01 <zzo38> shachaf: No I have not done, but I think SQL is working OK. But I have invented extensions to SQL which have not been implemented as far as I know, such as extensions to access RDF data, as well as some other things.
03:52:37 <zzo38> Some features I wanted for SQL have to do with SQLite APIs and not with the SQL code itself; some of these have been implemented but not all. For example, I have more suggestions for features for virtual tables, such as the ability of the module to deal with LIMIT and OFFSET clauses, and the ability of the module to do batch updates and batch deletions.
03:52:54 <shachaf> Cale: If an inner join is a pullback, what are all the other kinds of joins?
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04:02:51 <zzo38> There is now the ability for a SQLite virtual table module xBestIndex method to know which columns are used by a colUsed field, although this field includes even consumable uses, and I would rather that it omitted consumable uses; it would make more sense to me. If this were changed, then sqlite3_vtab_config() should be used to configure this, for purpose of backward compatibility.
04:07:13 <zzo38> Another enhancement would be to allow additional sqlite3_declare_vtab() calls, where the additional ones are CREATE INDEX instead of CREATE TABLE statements. A partial index and index on expression are allowed (and in the case of virtual tables, a CREATE INDEX statement that doesn't use either of these features is probably useless, unless it contains COLLATE clauses too, so that you can create a virtual table that supports multiple collations.)
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04:50:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Calcutape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47349&oldid=47348 * Darkrifts * (+661)
04:54:08 <shachaf> `relcome incomprehensibly
04:54:51 <HackEgo> incomprehensibly: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
04:58:30 <oerjan> i have a feeling i've seen em before.
04:58:55 <shachaf> oerjan: maybe in _The Wizard of Oz_?
04:59:19 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
05:00:34 <zzo38> It says "incomprehensibly" is Micah Johnston.
05:01:02 <oerjan> that is entirely irrelevant to the swatting hth
05:03:32 <quintopia> was em a witch?
05:03:56 <shachaf> quintopia: itym "was ey a witch" hth
05:04:02 <shachaf> hmm, no
05:04:06 <shachaf> quintopia: itym "was e a witch" hth
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05:04:13 <shachaf> so many variants
05:04:26 <oerjan> quintopia: think more familiar hth
05:05:13 <quintopia> nope no idea
05:05:34 <oerjan> well, caun't help you any more.
05:05:48 <quintopia> fair enough
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05:14:59 <zzo38> Is who the witch?
05:16:05 <zzo38> Some Wiccans will call themself witches while others will not (I have heard from someone was with two other people one person introduced another as a witch but then she said she is not a witch she is Wiccan)
05:16:46 <zzo38> Does the number 11 on a rotary telephone in a hotel mean to access the outside line (which is 9 on modern telephones)?
05:17:07 <shachaf> zzo38; Rotary phones are obsolete.
05:18:24 <zzo38> That fails to answer the question. I mean at a time when the Hotel Pennsylvania had a rotary telephone.
05:18:58 <shachaf> Rotary phones have been obsolete my entire life.
05:19:00 <zzo38> Someone I asked about this picture suggested that is what 11 is for.
05:19:12 <shachaf> So they've been obsolete forever.
05:20:49 <zzo38> But there is a picture of the telephone dial on the latest issue of 2600.
05:21:21 <shachaf> The one that published your letter?
05:21:28 <zzo38> Yes
05:21:55 <shachaf> Can I look at it for free?
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05:23:12 <zzo38> If you go to a book store that has it then you can look there I suppose. If you find it at the store and want to buy it, you have to pay $6.95 (United States) or $8.95 (Canadian), plus tax.
05:23:38 <zzo38> You may also find a picture of the covers in their webpages; I don't know, but you can try.
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05:25:50 <zzo38> I don't actually know where this picture came from, but at least it appears to be from Hotel Pennsylvania; it has their telephone number in the middle.
05:27:10 <zzo38> (Their telephone number was (and still is) PENnsylvania 5000, I think in the 212 area code.)
05:27:55 <shachaf> My phone number is SHA-CHAF.
05:28:05 <shachaf> The area code isn't 212.
05:28:23 <zzo38> Do you know of anyone who has kept the same telephone number for longer than them? (This is a question that was asked in a letter in a previous issue.)
05:29:49 <pikhq> Define "obsolete". In much of the US, pulse dialing still works.
05:30:02 <shachaf> pikhq: I mean it in the Google sense, of course.
05:30:22 <pikhq> They are certainly obsolete in the Google sense.
05:30:41 <shachaf> I wish that one comic was public.
05:30:55 * pikhq nods
05:32:34 <zzo38> Pulse dialing ought to still work! A telephone is much simpler to design with pulse dialing (although some functions will not work, such as if you need an extension number, but this is OK); if you have switch, microphone, speaker, bell, it will be enough, I think. Even if it does not actually have a dial, it will work (I have tried it, and yes it does work even without a dial).
05:33:12 <shachaf> Pulse dialing is useful because you can do it yourself when necessary.
05:33:36 <zzo38> Yes
05:34:20 <zzo38> And, I have done it manually without the dial, actually.
05:36:14 <shachaf> zzo38: But I can't do it from my cell phone.
05:36:38 <zzo38> (Why? It is because I wanted to just see if it works; it did work.)
05:36:39 <shachaf> i,i i use two phones to talk to my broker: a sell phone and a buy phone
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05:39:50 <zzo38> But the cellular system is entirely different anyways
05:40:22 <shachaf> Not entirely.
05:40:31 <shachaf> For example, it still uses phone numbers.
05:43:43 <pikhq> Sure, but it's not attempting to present the entire user interface over a low bandwidth analog line.
05:55:05 <Cale> shachaf: Well, those involve NULL in various ways, don't they?
05:55:53 <Cale> You can probably express them in ways involving 1+A and 1+B for the two tables
05:56:59 <shachaf> I guess you would want something like These.
05:57:43 <shachaf> But sum types are too good for SQL, anyway.
06:00:02 <shachaf> What happens when you do an SQL join and some fields are actually NULL? Probably a mess.
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06:42:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Calcutape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47350&oldid=47349 * Darkrifts * (+476) /* Sample programs */
06:43:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Calcutape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47351&oldid=47350 * Darkrifts * (-9) /* Stack control */
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06:53:01 <zzo38> The document for SQLite says a join with null values is treated the same way as = operator with null values.
06:53:28 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like pullbacks?
06:53:55 <zzo38> I don't know
06:54:46 <shachaf> Do you like pushouts?
06:55:21 <zzo38> I don't know
06:55:46 <shachaf> How about equalizers?
06:55:55 <shachaf> Do you like the great equalizer?
06:56:45 <Darkrifts> 52*_*_2-@_3-@5+@ {}
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06:57:26 <zzo38> I don't know
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07:12:25 <zzo38> Once on CBC Debaters they debate about use of American vs British spelling in Canada, but both are wrong because in Canada you have to use Canadian spelling, which uses some of each. Commands in a computer program should be American, although the documentation and GUI and comments can use any and does not even necessarily have to be English.
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07:26:48 <Taneb> Hi everyone
07:26:57 <Taneb> I'm using voice recognition to type again
07:27:10 <Taneb> Because it worked so well last time
07:27:18 <Taneb> Actually it's going pretty well this time
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07:27:31 <Taneb> I guess the technology has improved somewhat
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07:55:36 <zzo38> I made up a program to filter text from stdin using a JavaScript program specified by command-line argument. This program is itself written in JavaScript.
07:58:58 <oerjan> Taneb: the vodka is good but the meat is rotten hth
08:13:07 * oerjan looks at freefall and thinks that it's sort of 18 years since his last chapter ended, too
08:13:53 <shachaf> hi Taneb
08:13:58 <shachaf> i can't hear you
08:14:06 <shachaf> so i don't think this voice recognition thing is working very well
08:14:15 * oerjan removes the banana from shachaf's ear
08:14:38 <shachaf> /mode +b ana
08:14:52 <shachaf> ban ananas
08:15:43 <oerjan> on pine of apple
08:16:58 <oerjan> and randall has a new hobby
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09:15:03 <b_jonas> I did eventually manage to solve the pentagon puzzle (on euclid), but my solution is long and ugly
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09:15:15 <b_jonas> I'll try to optimize the move count a bit, while keeping the same principle
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10:05:27 <Boyss> Hello everyone
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10:17:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Onov]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47352&oldid=47343 * * (-35) Deleted elements from the code and corrected the list of steps.
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10:28:13 <ais523> huh, something came up at work that I just realised I know how to do in Haskell, but not OCaml
10:28:16 <ais523> and it's pretty type-eso
10:28:33 <ais523> on the offchance, anyone here that's able to help?
10:28:37 <ais523> <ais523> I have a program that (simplified) works like this: f (a1 : [`x] list) = let a2 = g a1 in let a3 = (h : [`x] list -> [`y] list) a2 in let (a4 : [`y] list) = g a3 in a4
10:28:45 <ais523> <ais523> but now I need to change g so that its argument is a [< `x | `y] list; can I do that whilst asserting that its return value and argument have the same type?
10:28:55 <ais523> <ais523> (the actual example is more complex but follows this general pattern)
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10:35:13 <shachaf> What's that thing in Haskell?
10:35:32 <shachaf> I know so little OCaml that I'm not sure what you're doing, so I probably wouldn't be able to help.
10:36:22 <ais523> shachaf: g :: (SomeTypeClass a => a -> a)
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10:37:08 <shachaf> I don't follow the rest of the example. I guess I should look up OCaml syntax.
10:37:10 <ais523> where the typeclass in question describes the existence of a function whose argument is a and whose return value is a list of an ADT whose constructors are X and Y
10:37:18 <ais523> err, (SomeTypeClass a => [a] -> [a])
10:37:23 <ais523> forgot the list bit :-P
10:38:50 <shachaf> What's [`x], or [< `x | `y]?
10:39:28 <ais523> [`x] is a variant type whose constructors are exactly `x (actually it has to be captialized, so `X)
10:40:12 <ais523> [< `X | `Y] is a variant type whose constructors are some subset of `X and `Y (so there are four possible types there, False, [`X], [`Y], and [`X|`Y])
10:41:20 <ais523> likewise, [> `X | `Y] is a variant type whose constructors are some /superset/ of `X and `Y
10:42:34 <shachaf> Where `X and `Y are nullary constructors?
10:42:50 <ais523> yes
10:43:22 <ais523> you can give them arguments too, e.g. [`X of int], but I didn't because I was trying to come up with the simplest example that illustrated the problem
10:43:46 <shachaf> So [< `X | `Y] behaves like Bool for most purposes, for consumers?
10:44:45 <ais523> shachaf: right
10:45:46 <shachaf> What's the difference between [`X | `Y] and [< `X | `Y]?
10:46:58 <ais523> I think mathematically there isn't one
10:47:17 <ais523> OCaml refuses to treat the types as the same, though, probably because the equivalence doesn't hold once you start giving arguments to the constructors
10:48:34 <shachaf> What's the difference between [< `X of int | `Y of bool] and [`X of int | `Y of bool]?
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10:53:23 <shachaf> I'm missing something about variants but I'll find out what it is another time.
10:53:36 <shachaf> I don't quite see how that example would be translated to Haskell, though.
10:54:26 <shachaf> But I ought to have gone to sleep several hours ago.
10:54:45 <ais523> night then
10:54:45 <ais523> #ocaml seem to have found an answer anyway
10:55:03 <shachaf> What's the answer?
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10:57:15 <shachaf> OK, I guess I see what I was missing about variants.
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11:01:57 <lifthrasiir> shachaf: [< ] and [> ] denotes variance; a value with [< `X | `Y] would be able to be contracted to either [< `X] or [< `Y] when the subsequent check requires that, likewise [> `X | `Y] will allow the extension to, say, [> `X | `Y | `Z]
11:02:53 <ais523> lifthrasiir: you've got that backwards
11:03:12 <ais523> [< `X | `Y] can be expanded to [< `X | `Y | `Z]
11:03:20 <lifthrasiir> I haven't used OCaml for ages, so I might be wrong :p
11:03:26 <ais523> [> `X | `Y] can be contracted to [> `X]
11:03:29 <shachaf> So the type of `X is [> `X], for instance.
11:03:42 <ais523> yes
11:04:00 <ais523> and the type of function `X -> 0 is [< `X] -> int
11:04:03 <shachaf> But [`X | `Y] and [< `X | `Y] have the same number of inhabitants.
11:04:11 <shachaf> And you consume them essentially the same way.
11:04:26 <lifthrasiir> ais523: ah I think I confused because function args should have the *inverted* variance to be checked
11:04:29 <lifthrasiir> yeah
11:04:48 <ais523> yes, OCaml is notorious for not automatically casting between types even when they're mathematically equivalent
11:05:03 <ais523> my codebase has at least one example where I've written the identity function by writing out cases
11:05:17 <ais523> in order to "launder" a variance
11:05:30 <b_jonas> ais523: isn't that because they have a type system where there's no algorithm for determining if the types are equivalent?
11:05:31 <ais523> because OCaml couldn't handle either just using the value directly, or a cast
11:05:37 <lifthrasiir> in turn OCaml has a relatively straightforward type checker, I think
11:05:42 <ais523> b_jonas: right, I strongly suspect that this is to do with keeping the type system decidable
11:06:59 <Sgeo> ais523, congratulations on getting on the NetHack dev team!
11:07:05 <shachaf> Subtyping is complicated.
11:07:19 <ais523> Sgeo: thanks
11:07:44 <shachaf> Sgeo: Have you congratulated the NetHack devteam for getting ais523?
11:08:19 <ais523> `unidecode ←
11:08:57 <HackEgo> ​[U+2190 LEFTWARDS ARROW]
11:09:06 <ais523> `unicode DIAGONAL ARROW
11:09:33 <ais523> English lacks good words for describing diagonals
11:09:54 <shachaf> ais523: You want e.g. "NORTH WEST ARROW"
11:10:03 <ais523> people sometimes use compass directions or times on a 12 hour clock instead
11:10:05 <ais523> right
11:10:23 <ais523> `unicode SOUTH EAST ARROW
11:10:29 <ais523> btw my connection is very laggy atm
11:10:32 <HackEgo> No output.
11:10:37 <HackEgo> ​↘
11:10:41 <ais523> thanks HackEgo
11:11:01 <shachaf> You can also use times on a 24-hour clock.
11:11:16 <shachaf> You get more precision at a cost of confusing everyone you're talking to.
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11:11:47 <ais523> you can use angles, but only if you've agreed a coordinate system in advance
11:11:53 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah. here in Hungary we have the roads numbered so that 1..8 go roughly to the eight compass directions in order, and all roads have a number whose first digit is the octant, but nobody uses this to describe directions.
11:11:57 <ais523> 315° DEGREE ARROW
11:12:24 <b_jonas> (funnily, there are also road numbers whose first digit is 9 and a road with number 0)
11:12:24 <shachaf> You can communicate a permutation through an ordering, but only if you've agreen on an ordering in advance.
11:12:29 <ais523> b_jonas: the UK has a very similar system, with 9 numbered regions for describing zones
11:12:53 <ais523> six of them radiate from London, three from Edinburgh
11:13:18 <ais523> and the boundaries are the A1, the A3, the A4, the A5, the A6, the A7, the A8, the A9, and the River Thames between 1 and 2
11:13:35 <shachaf> What's common to all those things, anyway?
11:13:41 <ais523> (the A1 goes to both London and Edinburgh, in order to reduce the number of boundary roads needed by 1)
11:13:55 <ais523> "those things" = ?
11:13:56 <b_jonas> It would be nice if road numbers, postal codes, and telephone codes would be numbered in some roughly corresponding way, but no such luck, they're three different systems.
11:13:56 <shachaf> Permutation and total (well?) ordering, linear map/matrix and basis, etc.
11:14:05 <shachaf> I'm slightly incoherent right now.
11:14:10 <ais523> b_jonas: is the number 0 a circular road that goes through all eight zones, by any chance?
11:14:33 <ais523> shachaf: I don't know but have a feeling that the answer has something to do with category theory
11:14:40 <shachaf> For a finite set of size n, there are n! permutations and n! total orders you can put on that set.
11:14:46 <shachaf> But there's no natural isomorphism between those two.
11:15:03 <shachaf> Yes, "naturality" is the first step in an answer.
11:15:29 <shachaf> But I bet they're more connected than that.
11:15:38 <b_jonas> ais523: that's the plan, although it's not a full cycle (possibly not yet a full cycle), and it's actually called M0, and some numbers are used twice, once with M and once without, and M means a motorway/freeway and exactly that.
11:15:42 <shachaf> For example, maybe it's actually a well-ordering you need, not a total ordering.
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11:16:03 <shachaf> "every set can be well-ordered" and "every vector space has a basis" are both equivalent to the axiom of choice. Maybe there's something there?
11:16:22 <b_jonas> ok wait, the M prefix isn't quite an exact system, just rough
11:17:13 <shachaf> Of course, in finite cases you don't need the axiom of choice.
11:18:23 <ais523> b_jonas: the UK road numbering system has a letter prefixed to the road number that indicates the class of road, and numbers are unique only within a class (actually there are a few accidental duplicate numbers but there aren't meant to be)
11:18:39 <b_jonas> ais523: I see
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11:19:20 <ais523> <ais523> b_jonas: the UK road numbering system has a letter prefixed to the road number that indicates the class of road, and numbers are unique only within a class (actually there are a few accidental duplicate numbers but there aren't meant to be)
11:19:39 <ais523> although in the case of motorways, sometimes we suffix the M instead when talking about a motorway upgrade of or bypass to an A-road
11:20:00 <ais523> the A1 and M1 are different roads; the A1(M) is a different road from the M1, and follows the path of the A1
11:20:09 <ais523> but the A1(M) and M1 are both motorways (the A1 isn't)
11:20:30 <shachaf> Do other statements that are equivalent to the axiom of choice have to do with naturality?
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11:56:47 <boily> `wisdom
11:56:52 <boily> @massages-loud
11:56:52 <lambdabot> shachaf said 13h 56m 12s ago: I've forgotten. What are your approximate coördinates and body weigh?
11:57:14 <boily> hellochaf. Montréal, 165 lbs.
11:57:44 <HackEgo> codoctor//P⚭Q ∧ P ∈ 𝔻𝕣 → Q ∈ 𝔻𝕣*
11:58:40 <int-e> ....what.
11:58:51 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/codoctor
11:59:19 <HackEgo> hppavilion[2]
11:59:52 <int-e> `? hg
11:59:55 <int-e> `? cafreine
11:59:59 <HackEgo> hg is dark alchemy used by oerjan to fix things. Like most alchemy, it involves drinking mercury.
12:00:04 <HackEgo> Cafreine is the favorite drug of category theorists.
12:02:05 <int-e> `? abyss
12:02:08 <HackEgo> In Soviet Russia, the abyss gazes into you first. Other than that, it's pretty much the same.
12:02:50 <boily> `? int-e
12:02:52 <HackEgo> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv.
12:07:42 <boily> “Its place of articulation is disputed (see below).”
12:13:35 <int-e> I can't remember where that idea of blowing up the Sun came from.
12:13:58 <int-e> HackEgo: thanks for the reminder!
12:14:19 -!- LKoen has joined.
12:15:59 <boily> `` ls wisdom/{l,}koen*
12:16:13 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/lkoen*: No such file or directory \ wisdom/koen \ wisdom/koen_
12:16:32 <boily> `? wisdom koen
12:16:33 <HackEgo> wisdom koen? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:16:36 <boily> ...
12:16:38 <boily> `? koen
12:16:41 <boily> `? koen_
12:16:41 <HackEgo> Koen vit au haut de la Tour Eiffel (coordonnées approximatives).
12:16:47 <HackEgo> Koen vit au haut de la Tour Eiffel (coordonnées approximatives).
12:16:51 <LKoen> better french would be "en haut"
12:17:12 <boily> t'as rien vu, personne n'a aucune preuve, la la la la la ♪
12:17:51 <boily> `` rm wisdom/koen*
12:18:00 <HackEgo> No output.
12:18:13 <boily> `learn LKoen vivait en haut de la Tout Eiffel, mais il s'est préfixé des L est s'est envolé.
12:18:18 <HackEgo> Learned 'lkoen': LKoen vivait en haut de la Tout Eiffel, mais il s'est préfixé des L est s'est envolé.
12:18:22 <boily> `learn LKoen vivait en haut de la Tout Eiffel, mais il s'est préfixé des L et s'est envolé.
12:18:22 <LKoen> et s'est envolé
12:18:25 <HackEgo> Relearned 'lkoen': LKoen vivait en haut de la Tout Eiffel, mais il s'est préfixé des L et s'est envolé.
12:18:37 * boily can't type
12:18:57 <LKoen> I think I actually had a view on the eiffel tower when this first wisdom entry was made
12:19:00 <int-e> this is not a sequence of letters
12:19:00 <b_jonas> heh
12:19:39 <int-e> now what does "tout" mean...
12:19:46 <boily> int-e: "all".
12:19:55 <boily> `learn LKoen vivait en haut de la Tour Eiffel, mais il s'est préfixé des L et s'est envolé.
12:20:01 <HackEgo> Relearned 'lkoen': LKoen vivait en haut de la Tour Eiffel, mais il s'est préfixé des L et s'est envolé.
12:20:02 * boily sucks at typing
12:20:11 <int-e> so it wasn't intentional... okay
12:21:44 <boily> are there any other dumb typos lingering in that?
12:24:00 <LKoen> I would've said "mais il s'est préfixé d'un L" rather than "des L"
12:26:03 <boily> I think the pun works better with "des L", as they usually come in pairs.
12:26:16 <boily> `learn LKoen vivait en haut de la Tour Eiffel, mais il s'est préfixé d'un L et s'est envolé.
12:26:25 <HackEgo> Relearned 'lkoen': LKoen vivait en haut de la Tour Eiffel, mais il s'est préfixé d'un L et s'est envolé.
12:26:25 <LKoen> oh
12:26:37 <int-e> ""
12:26:37 <int-e> third-person singular imperfect indicative of vivre
12:27:01 <int-e> still stuck on that... AND WHY DOES FIREFOX ADD A NEWLINE IN FRONT WHEN I SELECT A WHOLE LINE!?!! grrr.
12:27:11 <LKoen> int-e: "used to live"
12:28:41 <int-e> I don't think I'm ever going to learn that language.
12:29:45 <boily> je vis, tu vis, il cloue... conjugation is easy!
12:30:37 <b_jonas> there's a pun?
12:30:46 <b_jonas> you're doing french puns now?
12:31:23 <int-e> `? oren
12:31:27 <HackEgo> oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a.
12:31:33 -!- spiette has joined.
12:31:54 <izabera> hey
12:32:02 <izabera> settimeofday({1476087005, 0}, NULL) = 0 in strace i see this
12:32:09 <izabera> but it doesn't set the date
12:32:18 <izabera> maybe ntp is involved, maybe not
12:32:20 <izabera> how do i fix it?
12:32:34 <boily> b_jonas: :D
12:32:41 -!- boily has quit (Quit: STAIRS CHICKEN).
12:32:43 <int-e> `` sed -i 's/.$/ and other shady characters./' wisdom/oren; cat wisdom/oren
12:32:49 <HackEgo> oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a and other shady characters.
12:33:30 <int-e> `cat bin/sled
12:33:32 <HackEgo> ​[[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo 'usage: sled file//script'; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || { echo 'Rosebud!'; exit 1; }; sed -i "$value" "$key" && { echo -n "$key//"; cat "$key"; }
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13:00:22 <mroman> b_jonas: How's that force going you were bruting?
13:00:54 <b_jonas> mroman: that can't work, and I've started to wonder that maybe there's no strategy that beats random
13:01:03 <b_jonas> I'm not sure really, I'll still try to think more of it
13:01:35 <int-e> strategy, hmm
13:01:35 <b_jonas> it reminds me a bit to a favourite maths problem, but definitely not the same
13:01:36 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
13:01:38 <b_jonas> the Chameleon one
13:01:55 <b_jonas> I don't think I told you that one ever
13:02:29 <mroman> I've never heard about chameleons from you.
13:03:18 <b_jonas> Let me tell that one, it's an interesting problem with no elementary solution.
13:04:24 <b_jonas> The story is this. A toy company releases a new line of toys: toy chameleons that can change their color. As sold in the unopened boxes, every chameleon has a unique color, different from every other chameleon.
13:04:24 <mroman> I'm pretty certain that there's no strategy that beats random.
13:04:32 <mroman> that's what my empirical data and intuition tells me so far.
13:06:15 <b_jonas> You can touch two chameleons of different color, and that makes one of the two become the color of the other, while the other doesn't change, so they are the same color afterwards. However, there's no way to tell which of the two chameleons will change color, and regardless of what happened before and what chameleons you touch, there's exactly 1/2 probability for one or the other.
13:06:59 <mroman> what
13:07:05 <b_jonas> Was that truncated?
13:07:11 <mroman> the left chameleon is blue, the right is red
13:07:14 <b_jonas> yes
13:07:18 <mroman> ok
13:07:31 <mroman> so I can touch the left blue one
13:07:41 <mroman> either the left blue one changes to red or the right red one changes to blue
13:07:48 <mroman> either way I know which one has changed color.
13:07:49 <b_jonas> If you touch the two chameleons to each other, then with 1/2 probability, both chameleons will be blue after, and with 1/2 probability, both will be red afterwards.
13:07:56 -!- spiette has joined.
13:08:00 <b_jonas> mroman: sure, but you can't tell in advance which will change
13:08:08 <mroman> oh. yeah.
13:08:09 <b_jonas> you can tell after
13:08:11 <mroman> no I can't that
13:08:29 <mroman> but
13:08:38 <mroman> let's say you are not allowed to learn what number the opponent picked
13:08:49 <mroman> you only know whether your number was larger, smaller or equal
13:08:59 <b_jonas> Um, can't I finish the chameleon thing first?
13:09:03 <mroman> you ca
13:09:05 <mroman> *go ahead
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13:09:31 <b_jonas> You play this game: you start with N chameleons (N is a natural number), each a different color, and in each step, you touch two chameleons of different color (you never touch two chameleons that are of the same color).
13:09:40 <b_jonas> The game ends when all N chameleons are the same color.
13:09:46 <b_jonas> There are four questions:
13:10:14 <b_jonas> (A) Prove that the number of steps of the game (from start to end) has a finite expected value.
13:10:29 <b_jonas> No wait, start that one over.
13:10:39 <b_jonas> (A) Prove that no matter what strategy you follow, the number of steps of the game (from start to end) has a finite expected value.
13:10:59 <b_jonas> (B) Prove that the expected value of the number of steps is the same regardless of what strategy you follow.
13:11:08 <b_jonas> (C) What is this expected value exactly?
13:11:52 <b_jonas> (D) Prove however, that the strategy you follow can change the distribution of the number of steps of the game (at least if N isn't too small).
13:12:30 <b_jonas> Of these, (A) and (D) have elementary solutions, but (B&C) doesn't (I believe).
13:15:21 <b_jonas> mroman: go on, you can tell abou tthe numbers thing if you want
13:17:17 <int-e> b_jonas: what happens when you touch teh chameleons...
13:17:34 <b_jonas> int-e: see above.
13:17:47 <b_jonas> You can touch two chameleons of different color, and that makes one of the two become the color of the other, while the other doesn't change, so they are the same color afterwards.
13:18:04 <b_jonas> However, there's no way to tell which of the two chameleons will change color, and regardless of what happened before and what chameleons you touch, there's exactly 1/2 probability for one or the other.
13:19:19 <int-e> okay.
13:19:33 <int-e> (sorry, small window...)
13:25:08 <b_jonas> M:tG rules. The ability of Eradicate looks at the name of the creature as it was on the battlefield, but in contrast the ability of Deicide looks at the name of the card in exile, right?
13:25:39 <mroman> in each step you touch two chameleons together?
13:25:44 <mroman> sorry afk for a moment
13:26:16 <mroman> neat
13:26:34 <mroman> because chameleons that have changed color might change back
13:27:16 <mroman> so you can't just line them all up.
13:27:48 <mroman> If I have 4 chameleons, I can get two pairs of same colored ones.
13:27:56 <b_jonas> mroman: yes, in each step you touch two chameleons that are (before that step) different color to each other.
13:28:05 <mroman> can I touch chameleons again and again?
13:28:08 <mroman> until they take the color I want?
13:28:20 <mroman> oh wait I can't do that.
13:28:21 <b_jonas> yes, but not just the same two chameleons right after the other of course
13:28:33 <mroman> because I loose colors :(
13:28:36 <b_jonas> you can later touch the same two pairs of chameleons if they changed since
13:28:51 <mroman> well the same two would be pointless
13:28:54 <mroman> because the'll have the same color
13:29:38 <mroman> ok
13:29:51 <mroman> I have 4 chams with colors ABCD (upper case letters are colors)
13:30:06 <mroman> I pair AB and CD so I get AACC (or BBCC or whatever, doesn't really matter)
13:30:27 <mroman> Now I pair the ones in the middle which gives me AAAC or ACCC
13:30:43 <mroman> let's assume I get AAAC
13:30:47 <mroman> I will pair the two right most
13:31:04 <mroman> which leaves me with AAAA or AACC at which point I'm at the same point as a few steps above
13:31:11 <mroman> so I just repeat the process until I get AAAA
13:31:55 <mroman> so it's at least possible
13:33:23 <mroman> It's basically like tossing coins an that point
13:33:38 <mroman> with a 50:50 chance you either go back to AACC or get AAAA
13:34:09 <mroman> but that's not finite
13:35:06 <mroman> probably disproving A
13:36:01 <b_jonas> mroman: that sounds right about what happens with this strategy, but why do you think the expected value of steps is not finite? I think it is finite in this case.
13:36:21 <mroman> because you repeat a 50:50 chance event over and over again
13:36:54 <mroman> there's no finite number of steps that guarantees you that you win at least once when tossing coins?
13:38:16 <mroman> after 10 steps you have a 1/1024 chance of not yet having all chameleons the same color
13:39:36 <int-e> right, you can get unlucky and then the game will go on forever, at least when there's more than 2 chameleons initially.
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13:41:39 <b_jonas> mroman: yes, but luckily I didn't ask for a finite number of steps that guarantees that the game ends.
13:42:28 <b_jonas> (and I think you don't win when the game ends, you lose, since the toys you payed good money for no longer provide you entertainment value.)
13:42:55 <b_jonas> (but that's irrelevant for the maths problem)
13:43:13 <int-e> good news for the manufacturer
13:43:18 <b_jonas> int-e: yep
13:43:57 <mroman> oh
13:44:11 <mroman> so once you end up at the same colors again the game is finished?
13:44:35 <mroman> well.
13:44:46 <mroman> in the first step you get rid of half the colors.
13:45:01 <b_jonas> yes, the game ends when all chameleons are the same color.
13:45:19 <mroman> then it might never end
13:45:29 <b_jonas> (the chameleons still have some value, because you can play with them again if you buy more chameleons, but again you don't do that in the maths problem)
13:46:52 <b_jonas> As for toy manufacturers, this Pokemon Go game that everyone is talking about, is this compatible with other pokemon video games in the sense that you can transfer pokemon to or from Pokemon Go?
13:47:36 <mroman> no
13:47:39 <mroman> you can't
13:47:57 <b_jonas> Ok.
13:48:58 <FireFly> It's really just pokemon-branded glorified geocaching, similarly to how Ingress sorta was too (but in a different way and without the pokemon theme)
13:49:10 <b_jonas> That seems a bit uncharacteristic for a Pokemon video game, but maybe that will change later.
13:49:27 <b_jonas> FireFly: won't it still have pokemon battles or something?
13:49:54 <FireFly> No idea, maybe?
13:50:06 <fizzie> Ingress was from the same developers, right?
13:50:09 <FireFly> Yes
13:53:32 <b_jonas> Apparently there are battles (fights)
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14:05:24 <zzo38> Apparently the battle implementation is like a proper kind of pokemon game though, it is too simplified and differences as far as I have been told
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14:32:52 <myname> the battles are boing
14:32:57 <myname> and no pvp
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14:33:27 <myname> you basically tap your opponent to death
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14:47:59 <izabera> you can dodge
14:48:11 <b_jonas> "you basically tap your opponent to death" => sometimes older pokemon games look like that too
14:48:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: I wonder if they're going to roll some of the features, and possibly even a story, later
14:48:46 <b_jonas> I mean, it's a young game, and can be updated later
14:49:38 <b_jonas> Hmm. Apparently that game doesn't have trading yet.
14:54:25 <FireFly> <b_jonas> "you basically tap your opponent to death" => sometimes older pokemon games look like that too ← https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgcZP-uv60A#t=2h0m35s e.g.
14:54:39 <FireFly> (top-left screen)
14:55:28 <b_jonas> FireFly: yes, like that
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15:04:57 <myname> it is worse
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16:38:19 <int-e> b_jonas: it turns out that the random strategy is optimal for mroman's number game... if you think of the players as interacting to create a permutation pi mapping the first player's numbers to the second player's numbers, note that you still get a random permutation if the first player gets to specify which value of the permutation to fix next... and the scoring only depends on the resulting...
16:38:25 <int-e> ...permutation (pi(i) is compared to i, for all possible i).
16:40:19 <int-e> (and it was hard to find the right angle on this... I actually wrote a program that does the brute force computation trying to beat the random strategy... because I couldn't find the right angle)
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16:47:54 <b_jonas> int-e: hmm... that is probably the right explanation, yes
16:48:07 <b_jonas> int-e: thanks
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17:04:44 <b_jonas> Ah! So Urza's Destiny has a tight cycle of uncommons reprinted in Betrayers of Kamigawa that exile an object and then exile all cards with the same name from its controller's graveyard, hand and library. It consists of: Scour, Quash, Eradicate, Sowing Salt, Spliter.
17:05:05 <b_jonas> No wonder I didn't know about this.
17:05:15 <b_jonas> But it's good to know.
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17:19:10 <\oren\> b_jonas: so that means a deck with those in it is best fought by not having four of each card you want
17:21:07 <\oren\> hmmm although i dunno how I would decide which card is powerful enough that I want to get rid of it that badly
17:23:05 <\oren\> I suppose this is a good way to kill a combo deck
17:23:55 <zzo38> Some cards they have equivalent or nearly equivalent one with different name, so you can have the ones with different names instead of all same name.
17:28:59 <b_jonas> \oren\: I'm not sure. for most decks, the effect of searching is usually minimal.
17:32:29 <b_jonas> Anyway, because of meld cards, I was trying to search for cards that exile a permanent, follow it to exile, and then do something with the exiled card. Many cards just put the exiled card to the battlefield later.
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17:36:58 <b_jonas> The interesting cases I found are these: Otherworldly Journey returns cards with a +1/+1 counter (straightforward, and called out explicitly in the set faq). Gift of Immortality returns the exiled card and _later_ tries to return itself (from the graveyard? I dunno) tbf attached to that creature.
17:38:10 <b_jonas> Deicide (and probably no other card) follows a card to exile and looks for its subtype and name there, I dunno how that works for a melded permanent. Oubliette and a few other old cards exile a permanent together with its auras and then later return it tbf together with its auras.
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17:40:27 <b_jonas> (Yes, Gift of Immortality follows itself to the graveyard, in exactly the cases outlined in rule 400.7e.)
17:53:49 <b_jonas> OH! Wow
17:55:10 <b_jonas> Eldritch Moon has an aura called "Imprisoned in the Moon" that can overwrite a permanent's type to _land_, without overwriting its name. This makes some of the rules shenanigans easier to give examples to, and maybe even lets new types of rules stuff happen.
17:55:43 <zzo38> Maybe you can use with a candelabra?
17:57:14 <b_jonas> what candelabra?
17:57:25 <b_jonas> the Candelabrum of Invocation?
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17:59:40 <zzo38> No! The other kind! The kind with candles!
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18:01:49 <b_jonas> Oh, there's another interesting card about meld: Extraplanar Lens.
18:02:05 <b_jonas> (Also Invader Parasite.)
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18:24:33 <int-e> boo, the line translation tool doesn't work as usual on level 25 (possibly due to the undefined point bug?)
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18:43:57 <int-e> no, the reason is different... the tool is actually implemented in the corresponding .ggb data
18:50:48 <int-e> Oh well, at least it probably never worked differently.
19:03:16 -!- espes has joined.
19:15:55 <int-e> okay, that's one more gold medal :)
19:16:58 <int-e> and a slightly surprising isosceles triangle
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19:35:07 <moon_> `` bash -c "SET y='() { :;}; echo vulnerable,y '; y; env x='() { :;}; echo vuln x'; x;"; echo y; y
19:35:48 <moon_> huh? is hackego here?
19:36:14 <HackEgo> bash: SET: command not found \ bash: y: command not found \ bash: x: command not found \ /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: y: command not found \ TERM=linux \ http_proxy= \ HACKENV=/hackenv \ PATH=/hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin \ PWD=/hackenv \ LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ SHLVL=2 \ HOME=/tmp \ _=/usr/bin/env \ x=() { :;
19:36:15 <int-e> HackEgo is slow.
19:36:28 <moon_> looky there
19:37:06 <moon_> someone discovered that playing around with hbot
19:38:22 <myname> http://gizmodo.com/sore-legs-become-pandemic-as-pokemon-go-players-acciden-1783402931 lol
19:38:27 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shellshock_(software_bug)
19:38:37 <int-e> moon_: it's not a new thing
19:38:41 <moon_> hbot runs the LATEST version of debian tho
19:38:58 <moon_> shellshock should certainly be fixed by now
19:39:33 <moon_> `` bash --version
19:39:37 <HackEgo> GNU bash, version 4.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) \ Copyright (C) 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html> \ \ This is free software; you are free to change and redistribute it. \ There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law.
19:40:53 <moon_> Where in that code does it fetch all the environment variables and print them then int-e?
19:41:53 <moon_> seshell shock is code injection
19:42:01 <moon_> *shellshock is code injection
19:42:08 <moon_> not 'get all the mem variables!'
19:42:14 <int-e> `` env foo=bar
19:42:16 <HackEgo> TERM=linux \ http_proxy= \ HACKENV=/hackenv \ PATH=/hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin \ PWD=/hackenv \ LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ HOME=/tmp \ SHLVL=1 \ _=/usr/bin/env \ foo=bar
19:42:40 <moon_> oh the env command
19:42:41 <moon_> well then
19:42:42 <int-e> so I'm wrong, it's a failed attempt to test for shellshock
19:44:40 <int-e> `` env x='() { :; }; echo HI!' bash -c "echo THERE!"
19:44:42 <HackEgo> HI! \ THERE!
19:44:48 <int-e> that's how it works.
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19:46:35 <int-e> `` env x='() { echo "OOPS!"; }; echo HI!' bash -c 'echo "THERE!"; x'
19:46:36 <HackEgo> HI! \ THERE! \ OOPS!
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21:52:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbolge Unshackled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47353&oldid=47303 * Malbranche * (+715) /* Sample programs */ cat program
21:54:12 <shachaf> Taneb: Was I rude just then in the other channel?
21:54:17 <shachaf> I didn't intend to be rude.
21:54:29 <Taneb> Not as rude as you've been in the past in some channels
21:54:56 <shachaf> :-(
21:55:11 <shachaf> Maybe I misunderstood the question.
21:55:33 <shachaf> How ought I not've been rude?
21:55:45 <shachaf> Also what past rudeness are you thinking of?
21:56:10 <Taneb> In this instance, googling from outside the channel and saying something like "I think so... hang on / Yes, https://github.com/xyncro/aether"
21:56:25 <Taneb> And I have a poor memory for specifics of rudeness I am afraid
21:56:34 <shachaf> Really? I think that's less helpful.
21:57:01 <wob_jonas> Hopefully not as rude as I sometimes am.
21:57:23 <shachaf> Is using @google to answer a question rude?
21:57:37 <Taneb> It seems so to me
21:57:43 <shachaf> If I paste the link directly, it implies that I have some previous knowledge of that project.
21:58:28 <wob_jonas> shachaf: that depends. Sometimes people ask tricky questions where if you search you get answers for a similar sounding but different question, in which case it might be rude.
21:58:49 <shachaf> Well, I searched first outside the channel to make sure it would find the right link.
21:59:07 <shachaf> But then pasting the link seems like the wrong thing to do.
21:59:19 <shachaf> Note that I think lmgtfy.com is quite rude.
21:59:26 <Taneb> shachaf, to me, using @google is like "I am SO SURE that this is SO OBVIOUS the first link on google is going to help you"
21:59:39 <shachaf> Was that link not helpful?
21:59:54 <Taneb> It was helpful, yes
22:00:07 <wob_jonas> How can you even be sure it will give the same answer in channel? Google can give different results for the same query depending on the interface language, search history, account, phase of moon, etc.
22:00:13 <Taneb> But I think by using @google you're coming across as more arrogant than you would by just pasting the link
22:00:27 <shachaf> Well, that's a problem.
22:00:38 <shachaf> Unless I actually am that arrogant, in which case maybe it's not a problem.
22:00:42 <shachaf> But I don't think I am.
22:01:17 <wob_jonas> The interface language has such a high effect that I specifically sometimes search from http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en and sometimes from http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=hu depending on what I want.
22:02:34 <shachaf> wob_jonas: I suspect phase of moon is the most significant.
22:02:55 <shachaf> "phase of moon" might mean something like "which data center served your query"
22:03:29 <shachaf> Taneb: I apologise for my rudeness.
22:03:48 <Taneb> It is OK
22:03:51 <shachaf> (You can tell it's serious when I spell "apologise" with an s.)
22:03:51 <Taneb> I forgive you
22:04:16 <shachaf> I'll reconsider my @google behavior
22:04:38 <shachaf> Taneb: Is part of the rudeness that it seems like I'm suggesting that you didn't even bother to look it up on the Google before asking?
22:04:55 <Taneb> I think so
22:05:41 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I actually think the interface language is the most significant
22:06:02 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Try running your search query in Tor and see if you get the same result.
22:07:01 <wob_jonas> Ok, maybe the interface language just used to be the most significant. Maybe search history is more significant these days.
22:08:15 <shachaf> Well, I do all my searches in Incognito Mode in Chrome, of course.
22:09:52 <wob_jonas> shachaf: do you think that's enough for Google not recognizing you enough to tilt the search results a little?
22:10:06 <shachaf> I don't know whether Google recognizes you.
22:10:12 <shachaf> But I expect they wouldn't let on.
22:10:15 <wob_jonas> It doesn't have to make a certain identification for some tuning.
22:13:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47354&oldid=47346 * Sesshomariu * (+90) /* Examples */
22:29:09 <\oren\> @duckduckgo befunge
22:29:09 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
22:29:13 <\oren\> boo
22:29:33 <\oren\> @bing befunge
22:29:33 <lambdabot> pong
22:29:39 <\oren\> ARGH
22:30:38 <shachaf> blatant favoritism on the part of the judges
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22:44:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Verbose]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47355&oldid=40476 * Poolala * (+13) What was 2013 me thinking
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22:51:37 <FireFly> @ddg
22:51:37 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: msg id do bug
22:51:40 <FireFly> aw
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22:59:10 <int-e> `? metasepia
22:59:33 <int-e> I believe that was our duckduckgo bot
22:59:52 -!- jaboja has joined.
22:59:58 <int-e> HackEgo come on, you can do it!
23:01:06 <HackEgo> metasepia knew the weather at your nearest airport, and also something about ducks.
23:01:20 <boily> int-ello.
23:01:26 <boily> one day I'll remetasepia hth
23:02:27 <FireFly> I never met a sepia
23:03:08 <boily> Firellofly.
23:03:20 <boily> I think that pun was already punned by shachaf...
23:03:35 <shachaf> HireFly
23:03:50 <int-e> boily: is the code buried or do you lack a place to host it?
23:04:28 <boily> it's very dusty, relied on outdated haskell libs, broke when 7.8 came out, stuff like that...
23:04:55 <myname> is FireHi considered valid?
23:05:37 <int-e> Haskell, hmm. I really need to update lambdabot.
23:06:09 <shachaf> FireFly: are you considered valid
23:07:08 <int-e> `? warranty
23:07:15 <HackEgo> warranty? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:07:47 * boily checks FireFly for UPCs or a VIN...
23:09:20 <FireFly> myname: works for me
23:09:33 <FireFly> I think I might be out of warranty
23:10:51 <int-e> . o O ( is this funny enough? `le/rn warranty/HackEgo comes without warranty, express or implied, and is unfit for any purpose, including the purpose of being unfit for anything. Its warranty has expired. )
23:12:45 <boily> it is self-referential enough. probably include a fixed point somewherer?
23:12:57 <boily> s/r\?/?/
23:14:28 <int-e> boily: I can't provide you with any fixed points; you'd just use them to move Earth out of orbit.
23:14:34 <int-e> `le/rn warranty/HackEgo comes without warranty, express or implied, and is unfit for any purpose, including the purpose of being unfit for anything. Its warranty has expired.
23:14:48 <HackEgo> Learned «warranty»
23:15:07 <int-e> `` cd wisdom; echo *fix*
23:15:12 <HackEgo> goofix prefixes
23:15:21 <int-e> `? goofix
23:15:24 <HackEgo> Goofix is an antropomorphic canine arithmetic notation.
23:15:36 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/goofix
23:15:50 <HackEgo> b_jonas
23:18:18 <\oren\> `unidecode ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:18:45 <\oren\> LOW LINE!
23:19:48 <\oren\> Somehow my Mac displays it with a nonzero-width space between the degree sign and the low line
23:19:56 <pikhq> Huh, why the zero width space?
23:20:51 <\oren\> and why does mac osx's Terminal display it as a regular space?
23:21:35 <\oren\> hmm it might be an error in my font. I shall investigate soon.
23:21:42 <int-e> pikhq: probably something to do with myndzi
23:22:00 <int-e> ^celebrate
23:22:01 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
23:22:03 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:22:13 <int-e> (but the script is no longer active)
23:22:22 <wob_jonas> WHAT? I don't remember that was me
23:22:28 <wob_jonas> maybe it was someone else with my nick
23:24:03 <\oren\> AHA!
23:24:11 <\oren\> yes, the error is in http://www.orenwatson.be/u8.h.htm
23:24:45 <\oren\> in u8.h I neglected to account for some zero width control characters
23:25:24 <int-e> oh, myndzi used color code in the dance replies? ... so glad I never saw that.
23:25:56 <\oren\> hence when the ttf sanitizer rewrites the character widths, it doesn't do those
23:28:01 <\oren\> and it seems that Terminal might rely on the font knowing the width of characters/?
23:29:07 <\oren\> Um... hmm I set my font to Times new Roman and that didn't fix the bug
23:30:28 <\oren\> I wonder what the CJKwidth of U-200B is
23:36:39 <\oren\> it's narrow. Maybe osx Terminal is doing this completely naively
23:37:26 -!- hydraz has changed nick to storkel.
23:37:31 <\oren\>
23:37:38 -!- storkel has changed nick to hydraz.
23:37:41 <\oren\> test
23:37:51 <\oren\> `unidecode t
23:38:20 <\oren\> `unidecode t‪‫‬‭t
23:38:57 <\oren\> what the hell?
23:39:22 <\oren\> Why is Terminal drawing three t's? there's only two!
23:39:38 <shachaf> There are only two.
23:39:45 <shachaf> Try resizing the window.
23:39:59 <\oren\> well in osx Terminal there are three
23:40:18 <\oren\> I resized it, there's still three
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23:41:47 <shachaf> I'm using the same program. Only two ts.
23:41:52 <shachaf> But the rest of the screen is messed up.
23:41:54 <shachaf> thanks oerjan
23:43:46 <\oren\> Wait now there're only two. wut
23:44:26 <\oren\> hold on I can fix this
23:47:20 <\oren\> `unicode 202D
23:47:21 <HackEgo> ​‭
23:47:28 <\oren\> `unicode 202D
23:47:30 <HackEgo> ​‭
23:47:32 <\oren\> there
23:47:55 <\oren\> `unicode 202C
23:47:57 <HackEgo> ​‬
23:48:03 <\oren\> asdasdasd
23:48:07 <\oren\> `unicode 202D
23:48:10 <HackEgo> ​‭
23:48:24 <shachaf> you're really messing up my terminal #scow
23:49:21 <\oren\> well at least now there shouldn't be anything in the RTL stack
23:49:39 <\oren\> because I popped it
23:50:36 <\oren\> I think working through a tmux and a screen negated the damage to my own terminal
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