←2016-08-25 2016-08-26 2016-08-27→ ↑2016 ↑all
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00:19:06 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, can I call the number 110,000 "eleven hundred hundred"?
00:19:38 <shachaf> 1.1 lakh
00:21:07 <ais523> eleven myriad!
00:24:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:MiniStringFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49644&oldid=49638 * Darkrifts * (+364)
00:28:56 <\oren\> じゅういちまん
00:29:44 <pikhq> 十一万 HTH
00:30:39 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: can you read hiragana?
00:31:07 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Nope
00:31:14 <\oren\> jyuu ichi man
00:31:47 <pikhq> That is some weird romanization.
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00:33:09 <pikhq> "Jūichiman" would be a more normal Hepburn, no?
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00:37:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:MiniStringFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49645&oldid=49644 * Darkrifts * (+47)
00:46:22 <\oren\> pikhq: I'm sort of using wa-puro romaji
00:48:47 <pikhq> That's pretty scow.
00:49:04 <pikhq> Especially when you're inserting literally unnecessary characters in it.
00:49:20 <pikhq> Even with normal-ish wapuro, that'd be "juuichiman".
00:49:33 <pikhq> Or "juu ichi man" I guess.
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02:06:03 <hppavilion[1]> How is circumcision not classified as genital mutilation?
02:06:48 <hppavilion[1]> To some degree, it's like carving a cross or star of david into your child's flesh
02:10:42 <tswett> Dang. /// is more than 10 and a half years old now.
02:12:45 <tswett> About circumcision: yup.
02:13:02 <tswett> Tradition, I suppose.
02:13:22 <tswett> It's been legal for thousands of years and they haven't changed the law yet.
02:13:53 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: you musta been, like, 4 when I came up with ///.
02:15:35 <tswett> Now here's a question.
02:15:48 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Sounds right
02:15:52 <hppavilion[1]> ...wow Mauritania
02:15:53 <hppavilion[1]> Good job
02:15:56 <hppavilion[1]> Great job
02:15:58 <tswett> In ///, how can I compress a big long thing that's very regular, but doesn't actually have much in the way of individual substrings that are repeated a lot, like:
02:16:00 <tswett> 99E99F98E98E98F97E97E97F96E96E96F95E95E95F94E94E94F93E93E93F92E92E92F91E91E91F90E90E90F89E89E89F88E88E88F87E87E87F86E86E86F85E85E85F84E84E84F83E83E83F82E82E82F81E81E81F80E80E80F79E79E79F78E78E78F77E77E77F76E76E76F75E75E75F74E74E74F73E73E73F72E72E72F71E71E71F70E70E70F69E69E69F68E68E68F67E67E67F66E66E66F65E65E65F64E64E64F63E63E63F62E62E62F61E61E61F60E60E60F59E59E59F58E58E58F57E57E57F56E56E56F55E55E55F54E54E54F53E53E53F52E52E52F51E51E51F50E50E50F49E49E49F48
02:16:00 <tswett> E48E48F47E47E47F46E46E46F45E45E45F44E44E44F43E43E43F42E42E42F41E41E41F40E40E40F39E39E39F38E38E38F37E37E37F36E36E36F35E35E35F34E34E34F33E33E33F32E32E32F31E31E31F30E30E30F29E29E29F28E28E28F27E27E27F26E26E26F25E25E25F24E24E24F23E23E23F22E22E22F21E21E21F20E20E20F19E19E19F18E18E18F17E17E17F16E16E16F15E15E15F14E14E14F13E13E13F12E12E12F11E11E11F10E10E10F
02:16:17 <hppavilion[1]> Hm...
02:16:36 <hppavilion[1]> So, you mean....
02:16:39 <hppavilion[1]> I don't see what you mean
02:17:00 <tswett> Well, how could I create a concise /// program outputting that?
02:17:12 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: No, the problem is I don't see the pattern yet
02:17:18 <hppavilion[1]> I can see that there is some sort of pattern
02:17:21 <hppavilion[1]> But I can't tell how it works
02:17:50 <tswett> Essentially, the string consists of "nEnEnF" repeated for each number from about 99 down to about 10.
02:17:51 <hppavilion[1]> Start with a concise program outputting that in a traditional language, for a start
02:18:21 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Except 99E is only once?
02:19:01 <tswett> Apparently. So 98 is the first one where it has the entire nEnEnF.
02:19:19 <hppavilion[1]> Ihttp://esolangs.org/wiki//// may be my favorite URL
02:19:34 <tswett> I know, it's kind of a wonderful URL.
02:19:36 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Well, you're definitely going to need the string #E#E#F
02:19:50 <hppavilion[1]> And # gets replaced with the number
02:20:39 <hppavilion[1]> Well, not sure how to print it
02:21:32 <tswett> Lemme pose a possibly easier question.
02:21:41 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: No, I think I'm figuring it out
02:21:48 <hppavilion[1]> OK, so the pattern has to be a literal, except \ can escape \ or /?
02:21:52 <tswett> Well, for my own benefit, I mean.
02:21:54 <tswett> That's correct.
02:22:02 <tswett> And, of course, \ and / both must be escaped.
02:22:18 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: ...that's what I said
02:23:08 <tswett> So, for my own benefit, here's a new question. Come up with a reasonably concise /// program outputting this:
02:23:16 <tswett> 00_01_02_03_04_05_06_07_010_11_12_13_14_15_16_17_18_19_20_21_22_23_24_25_26_27_28_29_30_31_32_33_34_35_36_37_38_39_40_41_42_43_44_45_46_47_48_49_50_51_52_53_54_55_56_57_58_59_60_61_62_63_64_65_66_67_68_69_70_71_72_73_74_75_76_77_78_79_80_81_82_83_84_85_86_87_88_89_90_91_92_93_94_95_96_97_98_99_
02:23:40 <tswett> Um... there's a hilarious error in the middle of that.
02:23:55 <tswett> See where it says 07_010_11? That should say 07_08_09_10_11.
02:24:52 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, I'm not sure if there's a way to do it concisely
02:25:04 <tswett> Now, here's a trick I learned from the wiki page.
02:25:06 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, there probably is
02:25:09 <tswett> Step 1 is to convert that to this...
02:25:25 <tswett> 00_01_02_03_04_05_06_07_08_09/_0/_1/_00_01_02_03_04_05_06_07_08_09/_1/_2/_00_01_02_03_04_05_06_07_08_09
02:25:27 <tswett> And so on.
02:25:34 <hppavilion[1]> I mean... if you can make a replacement self-replicate somehow, it'd probably work
02:25:47 <tswett> Then you can come up with a shortcut for 00_01_02_03_04_05_06_07_08_09.
02:26:21 <tswett> And then you'll just be left with something looking a lot like...
02:26:46 <hppavilion[1]> So you need to have a normal decrement substitution (like the one in Thue in reverse and decimal rather than binary)
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02:27:06 <tswett> x/_0/_1/x/_1/_2/x/_2/_3/x/_3/_4/x/_4/_5/x/_5/_6/x/_6/_7/x/_7/_8/x/_8/_9/
02:27:06 <hppavilion[1]> Which will definitely have to be at least 10 distinct substitutions
02:28:16 <hppavilion[1]> Then a counter I think...
02:29:22 <hppavilion[1]> Then a method by which the count can be inserted into all occurrences of # in #E#E#F
02:29:33 <hppavilion[1]> Then print it and start over with a decremented count
02:29:57 <FreeFull> Does it have to be terminated by a final _?
02:31:03 <tswett> FreeFull: nope.
02:31:15 <FreeFull> print('_'.join(str(x).zfill(2)for x in range(100))) Is the shortest I can come up with in Python
02:31:26 <FreeFull> I bet there is a shorter version though
02:31:28 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: note you can escape characters other than / and \ as well. that often makes it easier _not_ to substitute things too early.
02:32:20 <FreeFull> Python 2 lets you omit one set of () so it's 2 characters shorter
02:34:02 <FreeFull> What's the best language for this?
02:37:23 <tswett> bash is pretty good.
02:37:25 <tswett> for i in {00..99}_; do echo -n $i; done
02:37:37 <tswett> Or...
02:37:57 <tswett> echo {00..99} | sed 's/ /_/g'
02:38:19 <tswett> Of course, if you're okay with spaces instead of underscores, it's just...
02:38:23 <tswett> echo {00..99}
02:39:02 <FreeFull> Hmm, lemme try perl
02:40:20 <FireFly> Hmm
02:41:11 <FreeFull> tswett: tr -d ' '
02:42:05 <FreeFull> echo {00..99}_|tr -d ' ' is the shortest I can come up with without spaces
02:42:10 <FreeFull> In bash
02:43:47 <myname> is seq 00 99 considered correct?
02:44:08 <myname> nevermind, it doesn't pad
02:44:19 <myname> adding a format will be way too long
02:48:10 <FreeFull> I'm having trouble figuring out the perl version
02:49:32 <lifthrasiir> FreeFull: str(x).zfill(2) == '%02d'%x for given range
02:50:14 <FireFly> [ ,'_',.~(_2{.!.'0'":)"0 i.100
02:50:14 <j-bot> FireFly: 00_01_02_03_04_05_06_07_08_09_10_11_12_13_14_15_16_17_18_19_20_21_22_23_24_25_26_27_28_29_30_31_32_33_34_35_36_37_38_39_40_41_42_43_44_45_46_47_48_49_50_51_52_53_54_55_56_57_58_59_60_61_62_63_64_65_66_67_68_69_70_71_72_73_74_75_76_77_78_79_80_81_82_83_84_85_86_87_88_89_90_91_92_93_94_95_96_97_98_99_
02:50:31 <FireFly> Feels rather mediocre, honestly
02:50:49 <myname> and has a trailing underscore
02:50:52 <lifthrasiir> FreeFull: and ('_%02d'*100%tuple(range(100)))[1:] is shorter
02:50:57 <FireFly> I thought that was intended
02:51:08 <FreeFull> lifthrasiir: I forgot about the formatting operator
02:51:09 <FireFly> tswett's original line had one too
02:51:21 <FreeFull> lifthrasiir: How about a Perl version?
02:51:28 <myname> rught
02:51:34 <lifthrasiir> I'm not good at perl golfing :p
02:51:46 <FreeFull> print '00'..'99'; is missing the _ =P
03:02:26 <FreeFull> print map{s/$/_/r}'00'..'99'
03:02:27 <FreeFull> Got it
03:02:51 <FreeFull> Can someone come up with a shorter perl version?
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03:22:15 <tswett> So, little poll.
03:22:32 <tswett> I'm creating a database query tool. I'm thinking of naming it Catabase.
03:22:42 <tswett> What do you think of this name?
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03:25:22 <lifthrasiir> tswett: next time try 'patabase
03:27:08 <myname> i like it
03:45:30 <ais523> tswett: is the first a short or long?
03:46:17 <tswett> Short.
03:46:24 <quintopia> catamountbase
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05:02:11 <zzo38> \oren\: That kind of open protocol and game logic by server is also how I would design some multiplayer online game too such as a card game; in this case hard realtime is not as important. Time limits may be defined but you do not need so much precision
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05:37:19 <hppavilion[1]> I wish customary units were better
05:38:45 <hppavilion[1]> With words for things other than the simple stuff that people cared about in... huh, we don't know how old English Units (the parent of both Imperial and Customary units) are
05:38:58 <hppavilion[1]> They were around during roman colonization in the 0s
05:39:47 <hppavilion[1]> ...wow, the reason we still use Customary here is "Advocates of the customary system saw the French Revolutionary, or metric, system as atheistic."
05:40:44 <hppavilion[1]> ...oh, huh
05:41:03 <hppavilion[1]> On my keyboard, I HAVE TO PRESS shift to turn off capslock suddenly
05:41:05 <hppavilion[1]> ...OK
05:41:59 <hppavilion[1]> 1 furlong, 2 yards
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05:53:03 <hppavilion[1]> Why does nobody use the metre-gram-second?
05:53:38 <shachaf> Seconds are a bizarre unit.
05:55:47 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Why?
05:55:50 <hppavilion[1]> .../dammit/
05:56:06 <shachaf> ?
05:57:13 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, NFM
05:57:16 <hppavilion[1]> *NVM
05:57:17 <hppavilion[1]> I think
05:57:52 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: How are seconds a bazaar unit? And how exactly do you "sell" a second in Mesopotamia?
06:01:03 <hppavilion[1]> ...wow
06:01:15 <hppavilion[1]> When people petitioned the white house for a Metric implementation
06:01:39 <hppavilion[1]> The director of the NIST said that, since customary units were defined in the metric system, the nation is "bilingual" in terms of measurement systems.
06:01:51 <shachaf> Just use natural units.
06:02:09 <pikhq> How many planck lengths tall are you?
06:02:58 <pikhq> I'm about 1.143*10^35 planck lengths tall, personally.
06:03:09 <shachaf> pikhq: The natural unit of length is the smoot.
06:03:43 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: If we do that, we'll at the very least need to define units completely unrelated to planck in name that are always the same multiple of the natural version of what they measure
06:04:01 <pikhq> shachaf: I cannot argue that.
06:04:12 * pikhq has even walked that bridge before
06:04:26 <shachaf> But did you ever walk the planck?
06:04:32 <pikhq> No.
06:06:01 <hppavilion[1]> So, for example, a brick (or whatever) is roughly 0.21765099999999998 kilograms
06:06:11 <shachaf> Then the argument is smoot.
06:07:51 <hppavilion[1]> (If I were to propose a system for the US to use, there would be a unit called the toom that is about a smoot and hope nobody noticed)
06:08:16 <alercah> our inability to objetively define mass is irritating
06:08:30 <alercah> (also symptomatic of our general inability to comprehend gravity)
06:08:58 <shachaf> I should learn about physics.
06:09:05 <alercah> shachaf: if you do let me know
06:09:08 <alercah> I should too
06:09:31 <hppavilion[1]> If we Americans are going to keep our isolationism, we need to stop using those obviously-metric "kilobytes" and "megabytes" and "gigabytes"
06:09:36 <shachaf> The trouble is that physicists have a bizarre perspective on everything.
06:09:48 <hppavilion[1]> What's the most Customary-esque measurement of information?
06:09:59 <shachaf> we are all americans on this blessed day
06:10:09 <shachaf> Information can be measured in semitones.
06:10:10 <alercah> shachaf: yeah, like on what is reasonable mathematics
06:10:14 <shachaf> Or in bels.
06:10:20 <hppavilion[1]> (...august 25?)
06:10:52 <shachaf> https://i.imgur.com/Bxmjwj0.png
06:10:54 <hppavilion[1]> The smallest unit would be 6 bits (called a "letter")
06:10:59 <shachaf> I probably shouldn't've done that.
06:11:04 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: The BTU per Rankine.
06:11:32 <shachaf> ASCII (which is the American Standard) is a 7-bit code
06:11:45 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: But not all of ASCII is letters
06:12:04 <pikhq> At least, that unit has the same dimension as thermodynamic entropy.
06:12:59 <hppavilion[1]> You know what? A letter is 5.70043 bits, not 6
06:13:57 <shachaf> Isn't entropy the negative of information? Or something like that?
06:14:59 <pikhq> shachaf: Thermodynamic entropy = (-1) * information theoretic entropy
06:15:03 <hppavilion[1]> A line is 50 letters, a page is 36 lines (though there's conflict; most government entities are supposed to use a 72 line page (as they assumed both sides), but common usage is 36)
06:15:31 <hppavilion[1]> (Yes, I grabbed the nearest book and counted the lines on the page I had open)
06:16:58 <hppavilion[1]> (what's a common unit of information?
06:16:58 <hppavilion[1]> )
06:18:32 <pikhq> Common? The bit.
06:19:13 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Common as in colloquial
06:19:27 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: When explaining that there's a lot of data somewhere, what do you use for comparison?
06:19:56 <pikhq> The KJV Bible?
06:20:00 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Sure
06:20:26 <hppavilion[1]> Searched "KJV bible length in characters". Received "9"
06:22:04 <lifthrasiir> correct
06:22:09 <lifthrasiir> > length "KJV bible"
06:22:12 <lambdabot> 9
06:24:53 <hppavilion[1]> The most recent release of Ubuntu (64-bit desktop) is, if my torrent client is correct, 146503 page
06:25:20 <adu> hppavilion[1]!
06:25:24 <adu> hi hppavilion[1]!
06:25:49 <adu> hppavilion[1]: how have you been?
06:26:12 <hppavilion[1]> hadu
06:26:15 <hppavilion[1]> Good
06:26:42 <adu> I had a 30 minute tele-conference with my company's competitor today :D
06:27:08 <hppavilion[1]> :D
06:27:09 <hppavilion[1]> Why?
06:27:17 <hppavilion[1]> Are you stealing trade secrets!? :)
06:36:02 <adu> Yes.
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07:05:10 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll try and get Congress to pass a law improving the Customary system; if we can't switch to metric, we can at least make it easier
07:06:23 <hppavilion[1]> Define the metric prefixes (plus hella- and hello-) as acceptable modifiers of unit (so kilofoot and millipound are words that government organizations can use)
07:06:40 <hppavilion[1]> And add some new units that Metric already has single units for but Customary doesn't
07:10:38 <hppavilion[1]> (there's no simple word for a Customary Newton or Pascal or any such thing)
07:11:06 <hppavilion[1]> And maybe even some shorthands for concepts (like speed and acceleration)
07:11:42 <hppavilion[1]> But the REAL reason I do this is for an evil purpose- it mixes in my system of naming, and establishes it as compulsory for marketing
07:11:48 <hppavilion[1]> (for information)
07:17:17 <zzo38> I think in United States, legal documents are already allowed to use metric.
07:17:23 <zzo38> Such a law has already been passed.
07:18:47 <zzo38> (You don't have to use metric)
07:18:52 <pikhq> The major issue is, in certain contexts you're not allowed to *exclusively* use metric.
07:19:31 <pikhq> For instance, packaging for food is generally not allowed to use metric exclusively.
07:19:44 <zzo38> O, so that is how it is.
07:19:46 <pikhq> (but is required to use metric in addition to US customary units)
07:20:05 <zzo38> OK
07:20:18 <izabera> why is it an issue?
07:20:24 <zzo38> I do not really see much of a problem with that though.
07:20:33 <pikhq> It's not a huge one, except some manufacturers would like to stop caring.
07:20:57 <pikhq> Fortunately, there's no requirement that your goods be a round number of units in one system or another.
07:21:33 <pikhq> So e.g. it's perfectly valid to sell 4L of milk, just so long as it's 4 L (135 fl oz)
07:23:59 <hppavilion[1]> . o O ( One hertz-second (Hz⋅s) is a useless unit... I wonder if we make stuff more confusing with it )
07:29:05 <hppavilion[1]> The best strategy to secure our borders and keep out ISIS trying to get in through Mexico is, in my opinion, to (1) help fix Mexico so it's not a shitty place to live that makes the US much more appealing (2) form a "North American Union" of sorts (NAU- like the EU) and (3) Impose strict regulations on travel into NAU member states, but travel between NAU member states is allowed and easy (but you don't necessarily get government
07:29:05 <hppavilion[1]> benefits for the country you're in)
07:30:20 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: This is because you're thinking about effective policy, not racism.
07:30:27 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: ...Oh right
07:31:08 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Well, if we get enough mixed-race couples then Mexicans and Whites will slowly become indistinguishable
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08:45:44 <hppavilion[1]> Hm...
08:45:55 <hppavilion[1]> Is it possible to have a measurement along the lines of m^1/2?
08:48:15 <izabera> eu has like 25 members
08:48:18 <izabera> nau would have 2
08:48:25 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: 3
08:48:32 <izabera> that's not north
08:48:35 <hppavilion[1]> i
08:48:42 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: canada
08:48:50 <izabera> canada and us
08:48:56 <izabera> mexico isn't north
08:48:58 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: And Mexico
08:49:04 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Mexico is in North America
08:49:11 <izabera> whatever
08:49:13 <izabera> 25 to 3
08:49:18 <hppavilion[1]> North America as opposed to South America
08:49:20 <hppavilion[1]> The continents
08:50:25 <Taneb> Also the EU currently has 28 members
08:50:46 <izabera> is that before or after brexit?
08:50:53 <Taneb> Before
08:51:14 <Taneb> We're seeing how long we can procrastinate brexit before everyone forgets about it
08:56:27 <fizzie> I was real Brexit-sad at Heathrow again when using the "UK and EU passports" lane.
08:56:44 <shachaf> `welcome fizzie
08:57:05 <fizzie> Also the automatic ePassport gates refused to like my passport -- Brexit consequences manifesting in advance?
08:57:07 <shachaf> Brazil is exiting?!
08:57:18 <fizzie> (The ones in Finland liked it just fine.)
08:58:48 <Taneb> Lizzie,
08:58:50 <Taneb> ...
08:59:04 <Taneb> fizzie, I had that in Heathrow
08:59:14 <Taneb> But not in Venice
08:59:26 <hppavilion[1]> So what is the square root of a unit? What's sqrt(kg) or sqrt(s) or sqrt(m)?
09:01:50 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: Apparently fracture toughness values are typically in units of MPa sqrt(m), as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fracture_toughness#Example_values
09:02:19 <hppavilion[1]> m^i
09:02:23 <hppavilion[1]> I'll show myself out
09:03:13 <hppavilion[1]> I'm really just looking for a physical interpretation, if such a thing can possibly exist
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10:12:19 <b_jonas> wow, this is unexpected
10:50:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourier]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49646&oldid=49164 * Beta-Decay * (+336)
11:02:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourier]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49647&oldid=49646 * Beta-Decay * (+0)
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13:37:49 <b_jonas> fungot: a Nyuszi gondoskodott a vitaminról
13:37:50 <fungot> b_jonas: too late to change design philosophy. it only teaches the new language
13:37:54 <b_jonas> ah, he's back!
13:56:07 <b_jonas> fungot: a lepke őt és mindhármukat én.
13:56:07 <fungot> b_jonas: and now he's going to switzerland to a winter solstice ritual in a " symbol", and you can rotate the picture in all 4 compass directions
14:04:57 <FreeFull> Both racism and discrimination against the poor are stupid
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15:00:34 <oerjan> > chr$72+29+9
15:00:37 <lambdabot> 'n'
15:00:45 <oerjan> > chr$72+29+7
15:00:48 <lambdabot> 'l'
15:00:54 <oerjan> hm
15:04:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:]] with an expiry time of 1 year (anonymous users only, account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
15:06:04 <oerjan> another legitimate anonymous edit caught in the filter :(
15:09:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[User:Mtve]]": Spam: Apparently no one noticed back in 2011 when this spam page was (re)created :P
15:11:40 <oerjan> @tell ais523 the "polish" spammers stupidly respammed a page they'd managed to split by us - in 2011 :P
15:11:40 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
15:11:57 <oerjan> @tell ais523 *slip, sheesh
15:11:57 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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15:13:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dimensions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49648&oldid=45598 * Oerjan * (+0) /* Hello World! */ Anonymous legitimate edit caught by filter 9
15:14:52 <oerjan> @tell ais523 Somehow, filter 9 seems to cause more work :(
15:14:53 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
15:19:23 <oerjan> there was also an earlier blocked edit which i don't know if is correct https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:AbuseLog/6629
15:21:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:]] with an expiry time of 1 year (anonymous users only, account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
15:23:24 <\oren\> 10 kiloHertz-seconds is just 10000
15:24:53 <oerjan> shocking
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15:45:43 <lifthrasiir> 10000 what?
15:45:50 <lifthrasiir> we need a unit for non-dimensional constants
15:45:54 <lifthrasiir> for the consistency
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15:47:19 <icomefromSPACE73> hi everyone!
15:48:18 <oerjan> `relcome icomefromSPACE73
15:48:19 <HackEgo> icomefromSPACE73: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
15:48:44 <icomefromSPACE73> so are we programming the universe here?
15:48:52 <oerjan> rarely
15:49:04 <oerjan> oh that
15:49:05 <icomefromSPACE73> who's fault is it that i'm on planet earth?
15:49:26 <icomefromSPACE73> and how do i get my fusion drives working so i can get off this planet?
15:49:48 <icomefromSPACE73> my mechanic died in plasma conduit malfunction
15:49:53 <oerjan> ic
15:49:59 <icomefromSPACE73> yes yes..
15:50:18 <oerjan> `? space
15:50:19 <HackEgo> space? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
15:50:47 <icomefromSPACE73> that's right.. i come from a planet called Superion... it's awesome, i want to get back
15:51:24 <icomefromSPACE73> healp mah
15:52:02 <oerjan> i think the book "The little Prince" has some advice at the end hth
15:52:35 <icomefromSPACE73> hmmm does it show you how to fix a fusion drive?
15:52:59 <oerjan> nope, it's too old to know about those.
15:53:20 <icomefromSPACE73> yeeesch.. well i like the burritos here so that's something
15:53:31 <icomefromSPACE73> and cats.. they're cool
15:53:32 <oerjan> anyway, you could ask those ITER guys.
15:53:38 <icomefromSPACE73> ITER?
15:53:43 <oerjan> `? burrito
15:53:44 <HackEgo> Burritos are like Monads, according to Joe. See https://byorgey.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/abstraction-intuition-and-the-monad-tutorial-fallacy/
15:53:58 <oerjan> icomefromSPACE73: earth's main fusion project hth
15:54:11 <icomefromSPACE73> gotcha
15:54:19 <icomefromSPACE73> does earth not already have fusion drives?
15:55:08 <oerjan> nope. all our attempts to use fusion keep pushing back to 30 years in the future, somehow.
15:55:33 <oerjan> we're pretty good with fission, though.
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16:00:53 <oerjan> `le/rn space/Humans come from space. In particular, the part of space that has Earth in it.
16:00:54 <HackEgo> Learned «space»
16:02:38 <myname> is earth only the word for this planet in english?
16:02:52 <oerjan> i considered reverting that to make it start with "space", but it didn't feel right.
16:03:21 <oerjan> myname: i should think so.
16:03:58 <oerjan> except perhaps english-based creoles
16:04:06 <\oren\> myname: some science fiction refers to it as "Terra", but general english calls it "the earth" or "earth"
16:05:02 <myname> in german there is "erde" which can be either the name of this planet or that brown stuff you plant plants in
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16:05:32 <oerjan> in norwegian "Jorda" (or "jord" for the brown stuff)
16:06:38 <oerjan> (those are all cognates)
16:06:46 <b_jonas> \oren\: yeah, and some science fiction calls the sun "Sol" and the humans "terrans", see http://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/116820/4918
16:07:59 <b_jonas> oh man, I'm connected to eight different irc networks. again.
16:08:09 <b_jonas> crazy stuff
16:08:19 <b_jonas> on any but freenode, I only want to access very few channels
16:08:20 <oerjan> "In its earliest appearances, eorðe was already being used to translate the many senses of Latin terra and Greek γῆ (gē): the ground,[n 9] its soil,[n 10] dry land,[n 11] the human world,[n 12] the surface of the world (including the sea),[n 13] and the globe itself.[n 14]"
16:10:01 <\oren\> The earliest citation for "Terra" as a name for the planet Earth is from an 1871 lecture "Science & Revelation" by Robert Payne Smith:
16:11:18 <\oren\> so, relatively new term
16:12:02 <oerjan> in english, that is.
16:12:06 <\oren\> however, Terra fits in better with the Latin names we use for the other planets
16:12:22 <oerjan> of course the romans didn't consider it a planet.
16:13:32 <\oren\> true,but still, you have these latinate names for the other planets, and then the odd one out is earth with its th sound
16:14:27 <b_jonas> no, the odd one out is Moon
16:14:54 <\oren\> well, that too. Luna
16:16:12 <oerjan> and Sun.
16:16:18 <\oren\> Sol
16:16:32 <\oren\> as in the Solar System
16:17:36 <oerjan> norwegian has it easy there, our word for sun is sol.
16:19:11 <\oren\> A similar problem occurs in japanese where the other planets end in 星 (star) while earth is 地球 (dirt ball)
16:19:47 <oerjan> huh, the difference between "sun" and "sol" stem from PIE grammar - the word had different forms in different cases.
16:19:52 <oerjan> *stems
16:20:16 <\oren\> suppletive forms
16:20:21 <oerjan> \oren\: hey, isn't that just japanese humility :P
16:21:17 <\oren\> the also had to cram in neptune and uranus after the other planets used the five lements
16:21:50 <\oren\> 天王星 sky king star 海王星 sea king star
16:22:07 <oerjan> all the germanic, latin and greek words for "sun" seem to be cognate.
16:22:34 <oerjan> (also russian, i recently learned)
16:23:15 <b_jonas> \oren\: oh right, those other five elements, the ones in the Chinese system. I don't know how that system works.
16:24:56 <oerjan> while the moon's name seems to be different in all three
16:25:21 <\oren\> mercury is water, venus is metal, mars is fire, jupiter is wood, and saturn is earth
16:26:18 <oerjan> saturn is earth? those crazy chinese
16:26:32 <\oren\> earth star
16:26:45 <\oren\> or, soil star?
16:27:42 <\oren\> 土星
16:28:49 <\oren\> and the sun is pretty crazy too: 太陽 (fat yang)
16:28:56 <\oren\> ...yeah
16:29:20 <b_jonas> I only know the classical alchemical correspondence: Sunday/Dimanche/Sun/gold, Monday/Lundi/Moon/silver, Tuesday/Mardi/Mars/iron, Wednesday/Mercredi/Mercury/mercury, Thursday/Jeudi/Jupiter/tin, Friday/Vendredi/Venus/copper, Saturday/Saturn/lead. Makes much more sense.
16:29:59 <\oren\> b_jonas: thes sort of used those for the days of the week in Japanese
16:30:28 <b_jonas> There's also an alchemical correspondence to basically any set of seven things you can think of, plus also any set of five or six or eight or nine or ten or eleven or twelve things just shoehorned on somehow.
16:30:58 <\oren\> like thursday is wood-week-day
16:31:01 <b_jonas> In the modern day, few do alchemy, so it's astrology that has to listen to these corespondences.
16:31:33 <oerjan> b_jonas: which disney dwarf corresponds to which planet?
16:31:38 <b_jonas> I say we should just cut out the roman gods and name the names of weeks from the classical metals in first places.
16:31:53 <\oren\> and then sunday is day-week-day and monday is moon-week-day
16:31:55 <b_jonas> oerjan: http://www.xkcd.com/1417/
16:32:05 <oerjan> b_jonas: that's what i was referring to
16:32:50 <oerjan> `quote ais.*obscure
16:32:50 <HackEgo> 1243) <ais523> (on another note, I love the way that the standard way to indicate that you get a reference is to make a different obscure reference to the same thing)
16:33:22 <oerjan> `botsnack Zippy!
16:33:23 <HackEgo> ​>:-D
16:35:14 <b_jonas> There's also the seven wonders and the hét honfoglaló vezér, of whom there are different contradictory lists of which seven, so very likely everyone is just fudging the lists to make sure it comes out to seven after the fact when they find out more.
16:36:43 <oerjan> Alexander, Caesar, Genghis Khan, Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin
16:37:05 <oerjan> and Ramses whatever-his-number-was
16:38:22 <b_jonas> The hét vezér in particular are either ((Álmos|Árpád), Előd, Ond, Kond, Tas, Huba, (Töhötöm|Tétény)) based on the list by Anonymus, or a completely different sounding list with some overlaps and family relationships with the previous one.
16:38:28 * oerjan cannot say he's ever noticed lists of seven conquerors, anyway.
16:38:42 <oerjan> ah. they have to be hungarian.
16:39:10 <b_jonas> There are three primary sources giving three different lists, plus extra sources with no list but talking about some of the individual people.
16:39:54 <oerjan> hm maybe Mehmed 2(?) fits better.
16:41:09 <oerjan> far too many conquerors in the world as a whole.
16:53:01 <\oren\> seven empires: British, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, German, and Russian
16:53:21 <\oren\> (at least, those are the ones from Age Of Empire 2)
16:53:25 <\oren\> (at least, those are the ones from Age Of Empire 3)
16:53:58 <\oren\> stupid fingers, stop typing the button bedide the one I want
16:54:27 <\oren\> age of empires also has the ottomans but they suck
16:56:11 <\oren\> theres also the "group of seven" canadian painters
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17:09:47 <Lymia> fizzie, git cloning the zem.fi hill is broken again
17:09:47 <Lymia> fyi
17:28:32 <fizzie> Hurbl. I thought I fixed that.
17:29:46 <fizzie> Maybe I just thought about it.
17:31:22 <fizzie> I did fix that thing that was previously wrong (not running git update-server-info in the post-update hook).
17:32:58 <fizzie> I can't even find the URL you're supposed to clone any more.
17:34:23 <fizzie> Apparently https://zem.fi/bfjoust/hill.git/ and cloning it seemed to work now.
17:34:44 <fizzie> Of course I made the mistake of manually running update-server-info, so if it was broken before that, I have no way of knowing.
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17:45:41 <Lymia> !zjoust meowmeowmeow <
17:45:41 <zemhill__> Lymia.meowmeowmeow: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
17:45:57 <Lymia> It doesn't work
17:54:03 <fizzie> Mhm. Looks like the same problem of not auto-running that thing, but I have no idea why.
17:54:44 <fizzie> Oh, duh.
17:55:12 <fizzie> !zjoust how_about_now <><
17:55:12 <zemhill__> fizzie.how_about_now: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
17:55:27 <fizzie> Now it's fixed.
17:55:44 <fizzie> In other news, though, "it doesn't work" is a horrible bug report.
17:55:54 <fizzie> Please clearly state expected and actual behaviour.
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18:05:08 <int-e> that program looks a bit fishy
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18:13:09 <fizzie> int-e: You're just carping.
18:13:35 <Lymia> !zjoust meow :3 <( meow! )
18:13:36 <zemhill__> Lymia.meow: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
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18:14:31 <fizzie> The food chain in action.
18:19:29 <Lymia> <fizzie> In other news, though, "it doesn't work" is a horrible bug report.
18:19:30 <Lymia> <fizzie> Please clearly state expected and actual behaviour.
18:19:33 <Lymia> Expected behavior: It works
18:19:37 <Lymia> Actual behavior: It doesn't work
18:26:09 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
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18:30:35 <\oren\> Expected behaviour: it behaves as expected.
18:30:51 -!- jaboja has joined.
18:30:58 <\oren\> Actual behaviour: it behaves in an unexpected manner.
18:33:24 <fizzie> In that case, it's working as intended.
18:41:02 <\oren\> do british people who move to France have to refit their cars with a steering wheel on the other side?
18:41:03 <zzo38> Is there a simple way to forge the reply-to message-ID in Heirloom-Mailx?
18:42:00 <Taneb> \oren\, I don't think so
18:44:39 <zzo38> So that I can reply to messages that I have not received.
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19:07:31 <hppavilion[1]> Is kg^-1... the measurement of percentage? So U-235 has a value 0.0072 kg^-1 in pure uranium?
19:10:28 <Lymia> fizzie, How computationally expensive is markov scoring?
19:10:43 <Lymia> Is it unreasonable to try and compute it on ~9000 programs
19:16:55 <zzo38> On the floor inside of the boat they should add a compass with aft/fore/port/starboard so that you can know which way to go inside of the ship. Some of the boats can go in either direction, so in that case, to add lights on the wall inside to tell you which way.
19:21:51 <hppavilion[1]> My english teacher this year is scow
19:21:54 <hppavilion[1]> Prescriptivist scum
19:22:44 <Taneb> For English as a foreign language, I think that would be preferable
19:23:02 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Everybody in this class speaks english as a first language
19:23:09 <Taneb> Hmm
19:25:23 <shachaf> What, you prefer the American teacher?
19:41:01 <\oren\> English class in Canada is a mixture of prescriptivism to high class dialect, literature studies on Canadian authors, and political propaganda.
19:43:44 <\oren\> oh, and shakespeare, lots of shakespear
19:44:38 <Taneb> Gotta shake that spear
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19:53:21 <hppavilion[1]> He also said that the singular they isn't a thing (on the grounds that languages change... and nobody uses it any more? Not even the solid 80% of English speakers who use it regularly without even thinking about it?)
19:53:51 <hppavilion[1]> "adjective" is pronounced without the c sound (bullshit; that isn't even an archaic pronunciation, it just isn't a real thing)
19:54:58 <hppavilion[1]> And "dream" (the kind that happens while you sleep), "think", "ponder", and "imagine" are all synonyms (even if the connotations may be different, he says they're all exactly the same word)
19:56:00 <hppavilion[1]> And "seventh" in "seventh graders" is an adjective- when I tried to point out that you'd be looked at like you were crazy if you just said "graders", he said that "graders" (as in "people who grade papers") means that isn't true
19:56:07 <hppavilion[1]> Even though that's clearly an entirely different meaning
19:56:24 <hppavilion[1]> ("seventh graders" aren't a type of "grader")
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20:05:18 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: yep, that's the high school experience all right
20:05:33 <hppavilion[1]> Can somebody get me the link to the comic 2 before http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/you-are-loved
20:05:46 <hppavilion[1]> The one immediately before includes the word "fetish" so my school blocks it because bullshit
20:05:52 <\oren\> don't worry, http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/adam39s-rib
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20:11:46 <shachaf> `quote reasonable
20:11:47 <HackEgo> 112) <zzo38> Some people are reasonable, some people who are not reasonable insist on changing things so therefore progress depends on not reasonablepeple \ 529) <fizzie> One reasonable approach for the image->color case could be to take the mean (possibly in the RGB space, it doesn't have the hue discontinuity problem) of the most likely Gaussian
20:12:11 <shachaf> `quote 529
20:12:11 <HackEgo> 529) <fizzie> One reasonable approach for the image->color case could be to take the mean (possibly in the RGB space, it doesn't have the hue discontinuity problem) of the most likely Gaussian distribution to have yielded the image pixels, considering each pixel as an independent sample. <fizzie> Wait, that'd just be the mean. Never mind.
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20:14:10 <\oren\> `quote mean
20:14:11 <HackEgo> 6) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 58) <oklopol> Warrigal: what do you mean by 21? \ 69) <ais523> so a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.com might be self-relative, but a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com always means a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com.? \ 121) <nooga> i think of languages as tools,
20:15:09 <wob_jonas> hpp: I also dislike teachers that try to use the student's yet ignorance and trust to tell their style preferences as if they were rules or accepted best practices. I wasn't too much scarred from them, because I'm always a self-learner who prefers to learn from books over presentations, but still, I dislike it by principle.
20:15:37 <\oren\> `` quote mean | sed -e 's/\(^[^)]*\)).*/\1/'
20:15:38 <HackEgo> 6 \ 58 \ 69 \ 121 \ 154 \ 184 \ 193 \ 234 \ 250 \ 286 \ 326 \ 331 \ 351 \ 353 \ 366 \ 451 \ 477 \ 491 \ 500 \ 529 \ 536 \ 567 \ 626 \ 639 \ 644 \ 666 \ 703 \ 733 \ 760 \ 781 \ 819 \ 840 \ 860 \ 866 \ 904 \ 963 \ 975 \ 1046 \ 1056 \ 1058 \ 1091 \ 1106 \ 1139 \ 1189 \ 1261 \ 1279
20:15:38 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Yep
20:15:50 <wob_jonas> I don't mind people forming their own preferred style, or even teaching them as a starting point, but they should always make it clear which parts are generally accepted rules and which are just their preferences.
20:15:57 <\oren\> hey, it worked first try! yay
20:16:27 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Like teachers saying the Oxford comma is always right or always wrong, with no mention that it's rather debated at the moment?
20:16:29 <\oren\> `quote 121
20:16:29 <HackEgo> 121) <nooga> i think of languages as tools, there is no holy grail of languages <olsner> even if there's no holy grail, that doesn't mean cups of crap is ok
20:16:38 <\oren\> `quote 154
20:16:39 <HackEgo> 154) <Sgeo> How much do mainframes cost these days? I mean, they're obsoleteish, right? My notebook's much more powerful? So surely, they're cheap?
20:17:21 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: I prefer no commas in those cases
20:17:30 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: As in, none at all?
20:17:34 <\oren\> I ate bread eggs and milk for breakfasr
20:17:43 <\oren\> yeah
20:18:01 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: I was originally taught to not use the oxford comma, but when I learned that it's actually not just an absolute rule I decided that it should be used
20:20:57 <wob_jonas> As for punctuation, Hungarian has very different and strict and simple rules for where to use comma (or other punctuation, as in colon or semicolon or dash or parenthesis). One of the important differences is that Hungarian always has punctuation between any two subclause. (That isn't the only rule, there are commas in other places too.)
20:21:24 <wob_jonas> I'm not *using* those rules for English, but I'm sometimes sort of influenced by them, and I probably use somewhat strange and unusual rules in English.
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20:23:01 <Lymia> <hppavilion[1]> The one immediately before includes the word "fetish" so my school blocks it because bullshit
20:23:14 <Lymia> This is when you pull out all the web filter bypass techneques.
20:24:04 <\oren\> or just use your phone
20:24:08 <wob_jonas> hpp: oh by the way, do they also block all urls matching /ad/ for ad-blocking?
20:24:16 <wob_jonas> because I think I've seen that filter
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20:26:25 <APNG> some esolangs are based on PNG
20:26:42 <APNG> why are there no supporters of the EPNG format? https://gist.github.com/SoniEx2/60a025d5901f67b2e549dca4a0ba7d46
20:27:10 <APNG> (technically a PNG extension, not a format)
20:27:51 <APic> Why, oh why, did not i take the blue Pill?
20:28:36 <APNG> please support EPNG ^^
20:28:46 <APNG> anyway
20:29:01 <APNG> do minecraft command blocks count as an esoteric programming language?
20:29:22 <wob_jonas> APNG: yes
20:29:30 <APNG> why?
20:29:38 <wob_jonas> just like OTTD signals
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20:30:12 <wob_jonas> APNG: you can program them, but it's kind of hard because they weren't really designed for that.
20:30:32 <APNG> uh ok
20:31:01 <wob_jonas> Admittedly, some of the redstone logic stuff was *probably* added with the intent that geeks program it, but not for the complicated projects some people use them.
20:31:04 <wob_jonas> So it's debatable.
20:31:11 <wob_jonas> Probably not as esoteric as dwarf fortress I guess.
20:31:51 <APNG> well I basically once programmed a whole (music) tracker using command blocks https://minecraft.curseforge.com/projects/wireless-note-block-song-player
20:32:17 <wob_jonas> Maybe it's sort of like TeX, which Knuth designed to be programmable, but not really to be easy to write general programs in, and many of the hacks he and other people wrote in it abuse the language way more than it was intended.
20:32:35 <APNG> TeX... heh
20:32:51 <APNG> didn't someone make an ATeXMel or something?
20:34:05 <APNG> this https://gitlab.brokenpipe.de/stettberger/avremu/tree/master#README
20:34:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49649&oldid=49177 * Tripl3dogdare * (+15) /* S */
20:34:06 <APNG> ?
20:34:52 <Taneb> I believe that since 1.8 Minecraft sans command blocks is TC
20:35:16 <APNG> Taneb, 1.8 added slime blocks right?
20:35:20 <Taneb> Yeah
20:35:37 <APNG> ah
20:35:51 <Taneb> I reckon you can use slime block flying machines as registers for a Minsky machine
20:36:09 <Taneb> With players carried to keep the chunks loaded
20:36:14 <APNG> I bet you can simulate protein folding with slimeblocks
20:36:35 <APNG> I don't feel like trying tho
20:38:38 <Taneb> Me either
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20:54:27 <Taneb> I do wish I understood how to design Minecraft flying machines, though
20:58:17 <\oren\> hmm there should be a multiplayer dwarf fortress
21:01:10 <fizzie> Lymia: Google famously computes it for the Internet (as in, it's more or less like PageRank), so doing 9000 programs shouldn't be impossible. Done the iterative way, it's just a matter of repeatedly multiplying a vector by a 9000x9000 matrix (which I assume should be a quadratic operation), stopping when you're converged enough.
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21:11:58 <zzo38> I do TeX programming too
21:14:19 <wob_jonas> zzo: do you count it as an esolang when you do that?
21:14:33 <zzo38> A little bit
21:19:15 <Lymia> fizzie, *shrug*
21:19:23 <Lymia> As long as it's not O(n^3) or something
21:19:29 <Lymia> O(n^2) matchups between programs is nasty enough
21:22:21 <wob_jonas> I think some of the esoteric features I find strange in TeX and Metafont might not have been unusual back at that time, they only seem unusual now:
21:22:55 <wob_jonas> As in, those languages have rules such that they really can't be compiled, only interpreted as token strings at runtime, because how the token things are parsed can change at runtime. That doesn't cause a problem in normal programs where you don't abuse that, but it also always makes it possible to write obfuscations.
21:23:32 <wob_jonas> Now clearly that's not how people make programming languages now, because people want to be able to analyze and optimize and compile programs. But back then, it was normal, at least APL was like that, probably more.
21:24:20 <\oren\> Perl is also one of those
21:24:29 <wob_jonas> \oren\: no, not really
21:24:50 <wob_jonas> \oren\: in perl, more or less every subroutine is compiled to a clean op-tree once.
21:25:27 <wob_jonas> in APL or Metafont or TeX, everything is left as a token string, and which part of the token string are functions that act on which other parts is decided dynamically and may change at runtime depending on how variables are assigned
21:26:52 <wob_jonas> But most languages aren't like that, they can be compiled to at least optrees, even the old languages like algol, fortran, smalltalk, basic, and some variants of lisp (but not emacs lisp).
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21:28:37 <wob_jonas> I mean, in perl, you can compile a function at runtime, but once you compile it, the interpreter knows from the optree which words are functions and which are barewords and what are variables and what the precedence and calls are etc. Compiling each function can happen somewhat late, because you routinely run perl code in BEGIN blocks before other
21:28:37 <wob_jonas> code gets compiled (unlike ruby).
21:29:14 <wob_jonas> But even in perl, you don't usually get functions recompiled again and again. There are only a few mechanisms for that, like eval, or abusing do-file, or s///e, or starting a new perl interpreter, etc.
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21:29:29 <wob_jonas> It's not like you have to keep everything a token string.
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22:02:52 <zzo38> You can tamper with the category codes in TeX to parse some other kinds of files, is also one thing that can be done.
22:04:11 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yeah, some people do strange things in TeX. Sometimes I don't understand why they try to stick to pure TeX instead of delegating some task to non-TeX programs.
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22:04:44 <wob_jonas> I want to use the best tool for each task, and that often means mixing multiple languages. That's no problem. Good languages are meant to interoprate with other languages in various ways.
22:04:44 <zzo38> There is also stuff that can be done with \uppercase and \lowercase and one thing I have done with this is the ability to output binary specials rather than only ASCII text in specials.
22:05:45 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yeah, those are magical, sometimes people use them (and \roman I think) for things where they don't even need to translate characters, they just use it for the strange side effects on the TeX mouth that you can't get otherwise or something.
22:05:51 <wob_jonas> I don't really understand how it works.
22:05:55 <wob_jonas> (I understand metafont even less.)
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22:06:36 <zzo38> One advantage to write purely in TeX is that you do not need another program; TeX is designed to be the same on all computers, so the program will work everywhere (the possible exception is an out of memory error, but that's all).
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22:07:45 <zzo38> You can also use \romannumeral-` to get rid of a } that follows
22:07:46 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sure, but I can also write other programs that are more or less portable, and also, I can distribute the intermediate results (like an index of a book) that you can then TeX on your own computer.
22:09:01 <zzo38> You can do that yes. Although, I have also made the program entirely in TeX to make the index, too.
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22:09:19 <zzo38> (I have made many considerations to reduce the amount of memory each index entry takes up.)
22:11:06 <zzo38> One thing I often use is things like this: \def\ecall#1{\begingroup\edef\next{\endgroup#1}\next}
22:12:34 <zzo38> The stuff built-in to Plain TeX that defines \next for a temporary purpose can interfere with other uses of \next; my way does not cause this interference.
22:12:57 <\oren\> I prefer writing things in C that generate HTML
22:13:15 <wob_jonas> zzo38: um, can't you just use some other token than \next instead then?
22:13:18 <zzo38> That can work if you are trying to make HTML
22:13:43 <zzo38> wob_jonas: But if they are multiple uses of the same command, that won't work; they will interfere with itself.
22:15:44 <wob_jonas> I sort of feel that other software is finally catching up to TeX in the typography and math formula typography aspect, so maybe in another decade we'll no longer need to use TeX for anything, and won't need to deal with the language part that comes with it.
22:16:42 <zzo38> I still prefer TeX over much of the new stuff anyways.
22:16:45 <wob_jonas> Sort of like how I finally no longer need to depend on libraries written in fortran to do numerical computation stuff, because the newer software has caught up with the huge advantage that the numeric libraries written in fortran had
22:17:03 <wob_jonas> (and the fortran libraries got sort of obsolate because they weren't written with modern cpu and caching in mind).
22:17:24 <wob_jonas> zzo38: right now, sure. I'm saying I think it will happen in like a decade. The software haven't quite caught up with TeX yet.
22:17:56 <wob_jonas> (As in, all the technology is replicated, but they're not put together to good usable tools for all tasks yet.)
22:19:41 <zzo38> If you do not like TeX another alternative is troff, which has its own output format but it can convert to DVI (as well as other formats, such as man page view).
22:20:25 <Lymia> Isn't he "modern" answer to TeX .pdf and WYSIWYG editors anyway
22:20:48 <zzo38> I don't like PDF and WYSIWYG and I think TeX does it better than those anyways.
22:21:07 <zzo38> One feature of TeX I really like is custom output routines; I don't know what others will do such thing.
22:21:19 <wob_jonas> Lymia: no, I don't think so. I like pdf, but it's not the wysiwig editors that I'm missing, I'm not that sort of gui guy really.
22:21:37 <Lymia> My technical writing classmates can't make something look pretty in a WYSIWYG editor.
22:21:46 <Lymia> I doubt they can get TeX to output anything at all.
22:22:14 <wob_jonas> Lymia: oh sure, some people make crap with any tool, and they don't care what anything look like. that's not really my problem.
22:22:20 <wob_jonas> I'm not working for them.
22:22:22 <wob_jonas> Sorry.
22:23:50 <wob_jonas> On the other hand, I'd like to have access to all the modern infrastructure with fonts and unicode and alternate glyphs and stuff, and it's sort of incompatible with TeX, as in, neither can you use all features of Metafont fonts in modern stuff, nor can you use all features of new text rendering infrastructure in TeX.
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22:24:10 <Lymia> I'd probably just use some sort of gui editor if I needed to typeset something.
22:24:13 <wob_jonas> But I think eventually (in a decade) you just won't need TeX, because the modern stuff will take all the good features.
22:24:20 <Lymia> Better iteration time for messing with layout and such.
22:24:24 <wob_jonas> Lymia: sure, and gui editors do exist, and they will get better.
22:24:36 <Lymia> Unless I need to autogenerate something from code, I guess.
22:24:45 <Lymia> That's a use case for TeX-type stuff still.
22:24:54 <wob_jonas> You need both gui editors and programmability, and they need to interoperate, but we have a lot of that already (for non-TeX stuff)
22:26:07 <wob_jonas> Oh, and the gui editors (including the MS office, mind you) take the appearance part of LaTeX syntax, like, you enter formula as \frac{\varphi}{2}, simply because many mathematicians do that. They don't really run any sort of TeX, just steal the names and the outward appearance of the syntax,
22:26:25 <Lymia> mathml?
22:26:43 <Lymia> nope
22:26:47 <wob_jonas> just like how javascript and lots of other languages steal some bits of C syntax, like the spelling of operators and the control statements.
22:27:44 <wob_jonas> Lymia: IMO mathml is not a source format. It is a representation format, which you should sort of compare to DVI or PDF, only the viewer can change a lot of things with it (varying page size and fonts and font size etc) which makes sense because readers now use browsers instead of paper journals.
22:28:17 <wob_jonas> But mathml is a good thing, and I wish more browsers would support it well.
22:28:26 <zzo38> You can look at this file http://zzo38computer.org/barps/main.tex to see some of the stuff that is done, to resolve cross-references and create a table of contents and index without needing to run it twice or use an external program for these things. One thing it does not currently do is to output SQL although I intend to later make it to also output SQL to another file.
22:28:30 <wob_jonas> At least as far as I've seen it. I don't know too much about it.
22:28:44 <wob_jonas> zzo38: scary
22:28:52 <wob_jonas> zzo38: you actually have to run it only once?
22:28:58 <wob_jonas> not, like run it a constant number of times?
22:29:16 <wob_jonas> like, even if I want the table of contents on the front? do I have to rearrange the pages of the dvi later?
22:29:36 <wob_jonas> (I've sliced and catenated dvi pages once. No problem. Just asking how this works.)
22:29:56 <wob_jonas> (Or maybe it was PDF pages? I dunno.)
22:31:21 <zzo38> Yes, you only have to run it once to create the output.
22:31:35 <zzo38> The table of contents is already on the front.
22:31:42 <wob_jonas> Wow.
22:31:52 <zzo38> Yes you will get the table of contents on the front even if you only run it once.
22:32:09 <wob_jonas> And you'll get the rest of the document too?
22:32:36 <zzo38> Yes, as well as an auto-generated auto-sorted index, with all cross-references (both backward and forward) resolved.
22:33:19 <wob_jonas> Isn't that even theoretically impossible?
22:34:41 <wob_jonas> I mean, a page number in a cross-reference can change form 99 to 100 which is wider and that could affect page breaks and page numbers later so you have to find a fixed point for cross-references (which might not even exist in really pathological cases).
22:37:32 <zzo38> Yes, but it is unlikely. There are ways to deal with that if needed though.
22:38:17 <Lymia> !ztest meow (>)*9((+)*15[-]>)*4([>{((+)*15[-]>)*-1}])%3
22:38:18 <zemhill__> Lymia.meow: points -25.31, score 5.03, rank 47/47 (--)
22:38:21 <wob_jonas> Sure, you can always just tweak the document a little manually if there's no fixed point, and in practice you usually hit a fixed point the third iteration.
22:38:27 <Lymia> !ztest meow ++(>)*9((+)*15[-]>)*4([>{((+)*15[-]>)*-1}])%3
22:38:28 <zemhill__> Lymia.meow: points -26.00, score 6.05, rank 47/47 (--)
22:38:43 <Lymia> !ztest meow ++(>)*9((+)*15[-]>)*-1
22:38:44 <zemhill__> Lymia.meow: points -23.24, score 11.99, rank 26/47 (+21)
22:38:55 <Lymia> kiseki definitely effs up the ladder. :D
22:39:51 <wob_jonas> And if you want a nice-looking document, then there are tons of other things that you may have to tweak manually to improve the looks and that you can't predict until after you render and look.
22:40:14 <zzo38> OK
22:41:53 <wob_jonas> But anyway, yes, doing that in one run of TeX is impressive, even if it's sort of an esoteric goal.
22:45:21 <\oren\> Hmm, some of my CGI is still in sh, I should convert it to C
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22:48:47 <zzo38> Sometimes an external file is used to store cross references, but this won't work if the page is not being shipped out and also may cause problems with interpreting the output as input differently (although sometimes, you would want that), so what I did is to add an insertion class, and put into the insertion, marks and penalties interleaved, and then use \vsplit to extract the marks.
22:48:49 <\oren\> I'm not entirely certain that doing CGI in C is safer, or even faster, but it does put the C back into it.
22:49:24 <zzo38> (This can also be used to substitute for multiple classes of marks if you need that feature.)
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23:07:46 <\oren\> I've now reimplemented the allfiles.htm in C
23:08:50 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/listall.c.htm
23:09:40 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I see
23:10:50 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/listall.sh.htm is the original in sh
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23:14:26 <\oren\> `? cgi
23:14:27 <HackEgo> cgi? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:15:06 <wob_jonas> `? minpoijjikop
23:15:06 <HackEgo> minpoijjikop? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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23:17:12 <\oren\> `le/rn cgi/CGI stands for uh... C, goblin, interface?
23:17:13 <HackEgo> Learned «cgi»
23:19:10 <\oren\> `? wob
23:19:11 <HackEgo> wob? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:19:16 <\oren\> `? wob_jonas
23:19:16 <HackEgo> wob_jonas? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:20:02 <\oren\> `learn wob_jonas is b_jonas in disguise, so that he can do magic tricks.
23:20:04 <HackEgo> Learned 'wob_jona': wob_jonas is b_jonas in disguise, so that he can do magic tricks.
23:20:24 <\oren\> `? b_jonas
23:20:25 <HackEgo> b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek.
23:21:19 <Zarutian> Common Gateway Interface if you must know
23:22:06 <\oren\> bah what a meaningless acronym
23:23:22 <\oren\> It should be "RPFWR" running programs for web responses
23:26:45 <pikhq> It's a shame that CGI is designed such that it's often not practical to e.g. pass the file descriptor for the connection to the CGI program.
23:27:30 <Lymia> <zemhill__> web.minpoijjikop: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-44)
23:27:31 <pikhq> Mind, that's the least of CGI's issues.
23:27:46 <Lymia> There was a program named minpoijjikop a long time ago. It turned out to be... I think margins3 with random characters removed.
23:27:51 <Lymia> I guess someone decided to kill it.
23:28:14 <pikhq> (well, okay. Issues if you're concerned about maximally simple implementation. It's really not an issue if you don't mind a mild complexity bump and don't mind the inefficiency of CGI, anyways.)
23:28:48 <Taneb> Contente generaté interactifemente, it's French
23:29:09 <Taneb> (disclaimer: I do not know French, at all)
23:30:24 <shachaf> How should web programs work?
23:33:12 <pikhq> The web is scow. Complex apps on the web should be done via a simple bytecode spec with sandboxed implementation. ("simple" as in "you can easily *prove* your sandbox's security guarantees")
23:33:31 <Lymia> <shachaf> How should web programs work?
23:33:37 <Lymia> In a way that doesn't involve C.
23:34:03 <Lymia> pikhq, too late for that.
23:34:47 <Lymia> At least for web development purposes, there's stuff like Scala.js or Coffeescript or whatever.
23:34:56 <Lymia> So you don't have to use Javascript.
23:38:37 <Lymia> !zjoust <
23:38:37 <zemhill__> Lymia: Program name () is restricted to characters in [a-zA-Z0-9_-], sorry.
23:40:04 <Lymia> !zjoust <
23:40:04 <zemhill__> Lymia: "!zjoust progname code". See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for documentation.
23:41:41 <fizzie> That's a little confusing.
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23:43:14 <Lymia> hmm
23:43:37 <fizzie> It does a message.split(' ', 3) to split it into (command, name, code) triplet.
23:45:00 <fizzie> Then verifies that the name doesn't contain anything outside that set and is at most 48 characters long (wonder where that number came from).
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23:50:37 <hppavilion[1]> Word of the day: Monopolyamorous
23:50:58 <hppavilion[1]> You get to sleep with lots of people, but they can only ever sleep with you
23:51:12 <hppavilion[1]> (also, you're always the giver, they're always the receiver)
23:51:49 <Lymia> eew
23:52:01 <hppavilion[1]> . o O ( "The Giver" (the Lois Lowry book) just got a lot sleazier )
23:52:33 <Lymia> Wait, you mean that wasn't thinly veiled yaoi?
23:53:41 <hppavilion[1]> Lymia: I would say "yes", but now that you mention it I'm not sure
23:54:36 <hppavilion[1]> (If you were to edit the giver to be much more vague about how memories are passed, it would definitely be thinly veiled yaoi, with an appetizer of Paedophilia and a side of May-December)
23:55:37 <fizzie> Re the ladder, yeah, I'm not sure what to do about the Kiseki Problem. I like that a proof-of-concept thing like that exists and is somehow acknowledged to, but on the other hand it does quite a job on the scores. I could just manually remove it, but that's not particularly elegant either. And I don't think I'm up for doing any sort of particularly elaborate restructuring, like multiple hills ...
23:55:43 <fizzie> ... or whatnot.
23:57:25 <Lymia> I'm working on it
23:57:36 <Lymia> So it actually works on unknown programs somewhat too. :V
23:57:58 <Lymia> What do you think I want the zemhill repo for
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