←2016-09-11 2016-09-12 2016-09-13→ ↑2016 ↑all
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00:10:03 <hppavilion[1]> I think the society in My Little Pony have some rather advanced math
00:11:25 <hppavilion[1]> In the second movie, they mention the Pythagorean theorem (they actually SAY the definition- "And the distance between two points is just the square root of the sum of the squares of the difference the offsets of 3-dimensional points" or somesuch)
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00:13:20 <wob_jonas> hpp: it's just square roots, and square roots have been mentioned already in S3 E1. that's not advanced math. even the ancients knew the pythagorean theorem.
00:13:26 <hppavilion[1]> They mentioned a person named "Haycartes" (in the context of "Haycartes' Method", which is probably philosophical rather than mathematical but they still have the quy)
00:13:39 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Yeah, but it's fairly impressive for ponies
00:13:52 <hppavilion[1]> And they just mentioned pre-calculus (thus implying they have proper calculus)
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00:14:04 <wob_jonas> oh yes, sinuses
00:14:16 <wob_jonas> but they have a snout, of course they know about sinuses
00:15:09 <hppavilion[1]> sinuses?
00:15:17 <hppavilion[1]> That have anything to do with sine?
00:15:41 <wob_jonas> no, only the name
00:17:24 <hppavilion[1]> They also had the equations for General Relativity on the chalkboard at one point, which implies they have that (I mean, it's probably just that the animators needed something nopony would understand so no one would get upset, but still)
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00:33:58 <oerjan> @messages-gold
00:33:58 <lambdabot> Taneb said 15h 39m 1s ago: It is not DWFO, it's one being organized by a couple of people in my uni called "STVN"
00:33:58 <lambdabot> Taneb asked 15h 34m 11s ago: hth (shachaf told me to)
00:34:11 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa whoa whoa
00:34:13 <shachaf> very good
00:34:18 <oerjan> @tell Taneb it's really quite simple...
00:35:52 <shachaf> @tell Taneb oerjan says it's really quite simple hth
00:35:52 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
00:36:51 <oerjan> hello̼
00:37:29 <wob_jonas> hi
00:37:50 <wob_jonas> wait, when did you buy a Lambdabot Gold account?
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00:41:37 <oerjan> wellob_jonas
00:44:20 <shachaf> copumpkin: This Nix thing is a mess. :-(
00:44:30 <shachaf> Why is it trying to install binutils and bash and all these things?
00:44:52 <wob_jonas> to build stuff
00:45:18 <shachaf> Why didn't it want them before?
00:45:54 <oerjan> @ask Taneb does that mean it's star trek
00:45:54 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
00:48:42 <wob_jonas> I hate how there's always greasy cooking smell coming in the windows here. I blame the neighbour on the ground floor.
00:52:11 <oerjan> i've heard hungarian cooking is very greasy
00:52:49 <wob_jonas> yeah, usually it is.
00:53:20 <wob_jonas> I prefer it less greasy than average, but that's irrelevant. Nobody likes when they get cooking smell all the time.
00:54:27 <oerjan> pretty sure if anyone tried that in this building they'd set off the fire alarm
00:56:07 <oerjan> (greasy cooking without proper ventilation, that is)
00:56:59 <wob_jonas> He's got proper ventillation, he's ventillating all the smell outside the building. I bet his apartment is all nice and non-smelly. It's coming in through the window in here.
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00:57:57 <oerjan> OKAY
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01:13:21 <oerjan> @tell Slereah <Slereah> what is a trampoline* <-- it is a way to emulate deep recursive calls without a stack, by having each step return directly to a loop at the top, which calls the next step hth
01:13:21 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
01:14:50 <oerjan> @tell Slereah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trampoline_(computing)#High-level_programming
01:14:50 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
01:15:48 <oerjan> <shachaf> quoting people who use <-- is very confusing <-- i don't see why hth
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01:26:12 <FireFly> I like stacking left-arrows for stacked replies
01:26:22 <FireFly> makes for a decent one-message quote tower on IRC
01:26:33 <wob_jonas> I usually use double right arrows instead, like this => =>
01:27:25 <FireFly> I usually use "←"
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01:37:30 <wob_jonas> Maybe we should use other arrows, like ~> or <-|
01:47:29 <hppavilion[1]> If I need to calculate where a line from 0 to a complex number z = a+bi intersects the unit circle a^2+(b*-i)^2 = 1, what equation would I use?
01:48:22 <hppavilion[1]> (I suppose maybe I'm just supposed to divide by the absolute value? That works for calculating sgn(x) (barring x=0), which this is a generalization of)
01:48:30 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: yep
01:50:01 <oerjan> note that with a full line, there are two intersections.
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01:52:20 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> ouch I hope none of the punsters on here see this: http://www.mezzacotta.net/pomh/?comic=65 <-- too late, i read that comic hth
01:52:20 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
01:53:00 * oerjan hopes int-e won't misinterpret that due to filthy english grammar. or maybe that would be appropriate.
01:54:35 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Ah, I meant ray
01:55:10 <hppavilion[1]> (Is factorial defined for the Gaussians?)
01:55:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Vitsy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49709&oldid=49706 * Oerjan * (-22) enough of this
01:58:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FuckbeEs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49710&oldid=49705 * Oerjan * (-22) nipping this in the bud
01:58:11 <hppavilion[1]> Clearly, it needs to be based on the relationship between a and b & (a+b)!
01:59:58 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: factorial is generally extended to the complexes with the gamma function. it's probably unlikely to send gaussians to themselves.
02:00:28 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yeah, but I was going for something that doesn't require calculus to understand
02:01:02 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, the gamma function is stupid. Pi function is much better)
02:01:20 <oerjan> well i'm guessing you're unlikely to find something logical, but i dunno.
02:02:23 <oerjan> i'm not sure if there's a rule for (a + i)!
02:02:36 <oerjan> which is what you'd need to make sense of this.
02:04:39 <wob_jonas> oerjan: but you know where to look for such a rule, right? http://dlmf.nist.gov/5.5 . and since it's not there, you can be sure there's no easy rule.
02:05:01 <oerjan> i didn't know that.
02:06:22 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Or you need to know ki! and (a+b)!
02:06:41 <hppavilion[1]> Defining ki! is the hard part, most likely
02:07:20 <oerjan> wat
02:07:54 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: there wasn't any rule for calculating (a+b)! either hth
02:08:07 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh, I hoped there would be
02:08:19 <hppavilion[1]> e.g. (a+b)! = a!b! or something
02:08:30 <oerjan> otherwise you'd really just need i!
02:09:05 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: that's the rule for exp hth
02:09:29 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yeah, it was an example
02:09:35 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose i! is enough
02:10:04 <wob_jonas> isn't there a pole or something there?
02:10:11 <hppavilion[1]> 0! = 1; k! = k*((k-1)!)
02:10:24 <wob_jonas> no wait, there isn't
02:11:49 <hppavilion[1]> (a+b)! = (a+b)*((a+b-1)!) = (a+b)*((a+b-1)*((a+b-2)!))
02:11:51 <wob_jonas> the poles are at ik-1 for every integer k
02:11:54 <wob_jonas> I'm just dumb
02:11:54 <hppavilion[1]> Hm...
02:12:06 <hppavilion[1]> How about just blind experimentation
02:14:05 <hppavilion[1]> Try to find some patterns, see if they generalize
02:14:13 <hppavilion[1]> 3! = 6; 2! = 2; (3+2)! = 5! = 120; 120 = 12*10 = 10*6*2 = 6*5*2*2
02:17:18 <oerjan> wob_jonas: um the poles are at -k for natural k hth
02:17:32 <wob_jonas> oh
02:17:34 <wob_jonas> ok
02:17:41 <wob_jonas> I was holding this thing sideways then
02:17:47 <oerjan> fiendish
02:17:50 <hppavilion[1]> 3*5*2*2*2... a*(a+b)*(a*b) where a > b it seems; if a < b it's 2*(2+3)*(2*3) = 2*5*6 = 60 = 120/2 I guess?
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02:18:49 <hppavilion[1]> 2! = 2; (2+2)! = 4! = 24. 2*(2+2)*(2*2) = 2*4*4 = 32, so that pattern doesn't hold.
02:19:19 <hppavilion[1]> (s/a > b/a >= b/ or it doesn't work for any even numbers)
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02:20:02 <oerjan> good luck outpatterning euler and gauss hth
02:20:10 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: ty
02:21:13 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose it's probably impossible or really really weird, really, as (1) (k+0)! has to equal k!, so unless (a+b)! really just is a!b! (which I have a feeling I'll disprove with the first example) that doesn't work
02:22:18 <hppavilion[1]> and (2) there are a LOT of different ways to write k as a sum
02:23:12 <hppavilion[1]> Just to test if (a+b)! = a!b!, (2+3)! = 5! = 120; 2! = 2, 3! = 6, 6*2 /= 120
02:24:13 <hppavilion[1]> 3!(2^2)! = 6*24 = 144
02:25:00 <hppavilion[1]> (3*2)! = 6! = 720
02:26:05 <hppavilion[1]> (I keep seeing patterns, but I'm not sure where they're coming from; 720=144/2*10)
02:26:41 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: f(a+b) = f(a)f(b) on the reals holds _only_ for exponentials hth
02:26:51 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yeah, figured
02:27:12 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: n! is kind of a not-quite-but-frustratingly-close-to exponential, isn't it?
02:27:12 <oerjan> (well, assuming an even slightly nice function - there are axiom of choice counterexamples)
02:27:23 <oerjan> IF YOU SAY SO
02:29:56 <oerjan> hm s/reals/rationals/ and its completely true.
02:30:54 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, (n+1)! = n!*(n+1) apparently
02:31:06 <hppavilion[1]> (wait, what?)
02:31:38 <hppavilion[1]> 4! = 24; 6*4 = 24
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02:32:06 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, that is pretty obvious
02:32:17 <hppavilion[1]> It's some algebration of the definition given above that everyone has memorized
02:32:23 <hppavilion[1]> (Low battery)
02:33:31 <shachaf> ugh: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CsG6MSpWAAAdTob.jpg
02:33:44 <shachaf> this one is irritating
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03:23:42 <hppavilion[1]> What is the best notation for subfactorial?
03:24:20 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, should n! just be considered to equal Gam(n-1) at this point? The same way we didn't need a new sign for + when we went from integers to reals?)
03:24:40 <hppavilion[1]> (or is it n+1?)
03:28:05 <hppavilion[1]> And presumably, there's some equivalent to the gamma function (Maybe we should just call it L(x) where L is an approximate upside-down gamma?) for derangement- L(x) = (n-1)(Γ(n-1)+Γ(n-2))
03:31:07 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, gamma is defined for complex numbers
03:32:52 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, and i! is irrationally complex, of course
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03:42:49 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: s/Γ/L/g
03:45:02 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yeah
03:45:15 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I just noticed that
03:45:22 <hppavilion[1]> `? inory
03:45:29 <HackEgo> Inorically, inory is when you say something is irony that really isn't. Someone who does this is an inorite.
03:46:02 <hppavilion[1]> `culprits inory
03:46:07 <HackEgo> No output.
03:46:18 <hppavilion[1]> `culprits wisdom/inory
03:46:20 <HackEgo> oerjan hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1]
03:47:03 <oerjan> the functions with the property f(n) = (n-1) (f(n-1) + f(n-2)) are obviously exactly the linear combinations of n! and !n
03:47:54 <oerjan> which makes it strange if only one of them had a complex extension. but the wikipedia page doesn't list one.
03:48:24 <oerjan> or wait hm
03:49:30 <quintopia> what is !n
03:49:48 <oerjan> subfactorial
03:49:57 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derangement
03:50:12 <quintopia> yes
03:52:12 <hppavilion[1]> Not really a fan of !n notation because it's liable to be confused with ~n
03:52:25 <oerjan> wat
03:52:40 <hppavilion[1]> "Why are you using 2's complement for anything but computers?"
03:53:11 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: 2-adic numbers hth
03:53:49 <quintopia> yes
03:54:00 <quintopia> we can use 10's-complement for everything else
03:54:04 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: ssssssshhhhhhhhhh
03:54:17 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: ~n and !n are totally different HTH
03:54:20 <oerjan> quintopia: 10's-complement doesn't give a field, you philistine
03:54:41 <pikhq> quintopia: Um, the base 10 analogue for 2s complement is 9s complement.
03:55:07 <oerjan> pikhq: oh! then i guess 10's complement _does_ give a field. smashing!
03:55:33 <wob_jonas> how do I filter the duplicates out?
03:55:56 <oerjan> pikhq: um wouldn't 9's complement correspond to 1's complement?
03:56:11 <oerjan> wob_jonas: which duplicates?
03:56:12 <pikhq> Maybe my memory's messed up.
03:56:37 <oerjan> pikhq: i mean, purely from the naming. it wouldn't be the first time mathematical naming is messed up.
03:57:02 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a 3's complement?
03:57:05 <oerjan> (and of course, this makes ternary impossible to speak of)
03:58:47 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: problem is, with binary you speak of both 1's and 2's complement, which means if you try to extend it to all bases you get overlapping meanings...
03:59:25 <hppavilion[1]> Oh
03:59:57 <hppavilion[1]> So the 1's complement in base 3 is different from the 1's complement in base 2?
04:00:00 <pikhq> Erm, I'm wrong. 9's and 1's are analogous, 10's and 2's are analogous.
04:00:19 <quintopia> oerjan: i think 10's complement as I meant it is the same as 10-adic numbers? I know that ...99999 is -1, for instance
04:00:20 <hppavilion[1]> That's... a little disconcerting
04:01:00 <pikhq> The 1's complement base 3 would be, what, the 3's complement minus 2?
04:01:08 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Not really sure
04:01:19 <oerjan> quintopia: yeah i understood what you _meant_
04:01:22 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: What would 3's complement be
04:01:37 <quintopia> oerjan: and yes it doesn't give a field, because rational numbers aren't a field either
04:01:59 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: 3's complement would be _either_ for base 3 or base 4, with different meanings
04:02:01 <pikhq> 3's complement base 3 is 3^n - y where y is the number and n is the number of digits.
04:02:06 <hppavilion[1]> Like, how do you invert the trits of a 3-digit number?
04:02:22 <oerjan> quintopia: um rational numbers are a field hth
04:02:38 <pikhq> (because the radix complement in any base is b^n - y where b is the base, n the number of digits, and y is the number, apparently)
04:04:59 <quintopia> oerjan: erm, sorry. not the rationals. rather, the subset of rationals representable using at most k digits after the point in base b.
04:05:36 <oerjan> quintopia: the way you make p-adics a field are by allowing finite number of digits after the point, and infinite before
04:05:47 <oerjan> this does not work for non-prime p.
04:05:57 <oerjan> *is
04:06:10 <quintopia> eh, who cares whether its a field
04:06:50 <hppavilion[1]> (unary: mits, marks; binary: bits; ternary: trits; quaternary: tits (tetra- instead of quat-; not qits to avoid confusion with qubits); quinary: pits (again, can't use q, so swapped roots); senary: snits; octal: oits (pronounced "wits"); decimal: dits/digits; dozenal: zigits (so as not to use "zits"); etc.)
04:07:44 <pikhq> Base 256: octets HTH
04:10:40 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Is the 16's complement of higits/hits (hexadecimal) numbers the same as the 2's complement of the binary equivalent?
04:11:51 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: ah, wolfram.com has a formula using the incomplete gamma function http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Subfactorial.html
04:13:58 <pikhq> I dunno for sure, but it intuitively seems like it should be.
04:15:49 <pikhq> Hrm. The 16's complement of n is 16^n-digits_16(n), while the 2's complement of n is 2^n-digits_2(n). 16=2^4, digits_16(n)=floor(digits_2(n)/4)...
04:15:52 <pikhq> Hmm.
04:16:17 <hppavilion[1]> Phinary is a thing
04:16:34 <oerjan> a phine base indeed
04:18:43 <pikhq> Ah, no wonder I'm confused here, I wrote things wrong.
04:19:06 <pikhq> 16^digits_16(n)-n, 2^digits_2(n)-n. Those are the expressions I should be looking at.
04:20:47 <pikhq> digits_2(n) = 4 * digits_16(n). So, 2^digits_2(n) = 2^(4*digits_16(n)) = 16^digits_16(n).
04:21:23 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Yes, the 16's complement of a hexadecimal number is the same as the 2's complement of the same number in binary.
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04:23:27 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: apparently the incomplete gamma function is harder to extend to complex numbers than the usual one, it can become multivalued.
04:23:37 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incomplete_gamma_function
04:24:46 <oerjan> in the case of subfactorial, because of a factor (-1)^s
04:25:03 <shachaf> helloerjan
04:25:16 <shachaf> Where can I find a definition of the differential forms thing you were talking about the other day?
04:26:09 <oerjan> hello̼
04:26:29 <oerjan> doesn't wikipedia have this stuff
04:27:00 <shachaf> i,i אוריין
04:27:05 <shachaf> Probably. Which article?
04:27:23 <oerjan> "Differential form"?
04:27:39 <oerjan> it's not like i've looked.
04:28:25 <oerjan> although i vaguely recall once having had this explained in university, i have no idea if there even was a book involved.
04:28:39 <shachaf> Well, I want this vector space that you were talking about.
04:28:45 <shachaf> Oh, maybe "exterior algebra".
04:29:35 <oerjan> hm that does look promising
04:31:00 <shachaf> Is this "unordered set of basis elements" basis used anywhere?
04:31:22 <shachaf> (Or is it a non-empty unordered set?)
04:31:24 <shachaf> Cale might know.
04:32:48 <oerjan> shachaf: it'd be empty for the 0 components case i guess.
04:33:12 <oerjan> for n components, you need sets with n elements
04:36:17 <oerjan> apparently the correct term is "n-vector"
04:37:43 <wob_jonas> maybe Taneb invented them?
04:38:03 <izalove> who invented taneb?
04:38:15 <oerjan> `? cis
04:38:16 <HackEgo> The CIs are a secret society led by David Morgan-Mar, bent on conquering the world from Sydney with web comics and unsolvable puzzles. They invented Taneb.
04:38:21 <oerjan> hth
04:39:12 <oerjan> `slwd cis//s/web c/webc/
04:39:13 <HackEgo> Rosebud!
04:39:14 <wob_jonas> `? april
04:39:15 <HackEgo> april? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
04:39:19 <oerjan> `slwd ci//s/web c/webc/
04:39:20 <wob_jonas> `? january
04:39:21 <HackEgo> wisdom/ci//The CIs are a secret society led by David Morgan-Mar, bent on conquering the world from Sydney with webcomics and unsolvable puzzles. They invented Taneb.
04:39:22 <HackEgo> january? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
04:39:36 <oerjan> hm
04:39:44 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/password
04:39:46 <HackEgo> ​-rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 40 Aug 2 03:16 wisdom/password
04:39:55 <oerjan> `? password
04:39:56 <HackEgo> The password of the month is Strindberg
04:41:44 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is au cœur de septembre
04:41:46 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is au cœur de septembre
04:47:47 <Cale> shachaf: What?
04:48:06 <shachaf> Well, you missed the conversation the other day.
04:48:22 <shachaf> I think oerjan was talking about the definition of multivectors?
04:48:34 <izalove> oerjan: how does `learn know to update the password in that case?
04:48:55 <oerjan> izalove: it ignores articles
04:49:00 <izalove> nice
04:49:03 <shachaf> Or some thing that has some complicated ordered basis or something.
04:49:34 <oerjan> shachaf: the "Duality" section in that wikipedia article seems closest to what i said
04:50:10 <oerjan> (about universal property. the "Universal property" section is a different view.)
04:51:40 <oerjan> shachaf: oh and the basis is also shown in another section. (no mention of unordered sets though)
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04:57:22 <izalove> hey, any mtg player?
04:57:45 <izalove> i found a gilt-leaf seer
04:57:48 <shachaf> `? mtg
04:57:49 <HackEgo> mtg? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
04:57:52 <izalove> magic
04:57:58 <shachaf> `card-by-name gilt-leaf seer
04:57:59 <HackEgo> Gilt-Leaf Seer \ 2G \ Creature -- Elf Shaman \ 2/2 \ {G}, {T}: Look at the top two cards of your library, then put them back in any order. \ LRW-C
04:58:15 <izalove> how much would you pay for it?
04:59:28 <izalove> ah i see, according to this site it's worth up to a whopping $0.80 http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/search_result.asp?Set_Name=Lorwyn
04:59:57 <shachaf> Why are you selling it?
05:00:15 <izalove> because i don't play this game
05:00:36 <zzo38> I rarely play Magic: the Gathering but I do know all of the rules
05:00:42 <shachaf> You can build your starter deck around it.
05:00:43 <izalove> the card is in italian and i found it in a book
05:00:53 <shachaf> Do you want deck-building tips?
05:00:58 <izalove> sure
05:01:00 <izalove> why not
05:01:04 <izalove> they could come in handy someday
05:01:05 <shachaf> I recommend including at least one basic land.
05:01:11 <izalove> ok that sounds good
05:01:14 <izalove> what's a land?
05:01:17 <shachaf> That's a type of card.
05:01:20 <zzo38> Land is one of the types.
05:01:24 <izalove> i see
05:01:44 <shachaf> There are very few decks that don't use land.
05:01:45 <zzo38> How to built deck can differ based on whether it is standard or vintage or draft or whatever, too.
05:02:03 <izalove> how much is it gonna cost me?
05:02:06 <shachaf> Sometimes non-English cards are worth more than English cards.
05:02:30 <shachaf> But that particular card is probably not going to be very valuable no matter what.
05:02:40 <zzo38> Basic lands I think you can get not costing as much as other cards, because they are very common and you can get in all sets.
05:03:03 <pikhq> Yes, only unique variants of basic lands end up being costly.
05:03:05 <shachaf> I'll give you a basic land card for free.
05:03:16 <izalove> i also found this black lotus thingy, is it worth anything?
05:03:25 <pikhq> (but those are in no way superior)
05:03:29 <shachaf> Blacker Lotus is worth more.
05:03:29 <zzo38> Black Lotus is worth a lot; it is on the reserved list meaning they can't reprint it.
05:03:39 * izalove is being funny
05:03:41 <pikhq> izalove: Either you're fucking with me, or you're not aware that that is a really expensive card.
05:03:42 <zzo38> However, it is restricted in Vintage and banned in all other formats.
05:04:17 <zzo38> Therefore, unless you play Vintage or like to collect it (whether to keep or to resell), it might not be worth as much to you.
05:04:26 <pikhq> What's the going price for a Black Lotus these days, 30k?
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05:04:46 <shachaf> Surely not.
05:04:48 <izalove> 7.5k http://www.ebay.it/itm/like/262597320477?lpid=96&chn=ps
05:04:58 <izalove> why does ebay.com redirect to .it
05:05:03 <izalove> stupid localization
05:05:27 <pikhq> Ah, 30k is probably going price for a mint Alpha Black Lotus, not a Black Lotus in general.
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05:05:54 <shachaf> Oh, I'd believe that.
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05:08:11 <shachaf> pikhq: You should start an investment management company that provides Magic: The Gathering ETFs.
05:08:23 <pikhq> Hah.
05:08:53 <shachaf> I might buy some shares in your 3x Bull Power Nine ETF
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05:09:43 <oerjan> `learn MTG is short for Money Tapping Game.
05:09:46 <HackEgo> Learned 'mtg': MTG is short for Money Tapping Game.
05:10:27 <shachaf> oerjan: Is that supposed to be a pun on "tapping", a frequent action that can be applied to objects on the battlefield in Magic: The Gathering?
05:10:39 <shachaf> (Can you ever tap or untap something that isn't on the battlefield?)
05:10:55 <zzo38> shachaf: No. Only permanents can be tapped/untapped.
05:11:24 <zzo38> (Any object on the battlefield is a permanent.)
05:11:31 <shachaf> I forgot the word "permanent".
05:11:38 <oerjan> shachaf: not really, i'd have used a better word if i could think of one.
05:12:03 <shachaf> I wish there was a Magic: The Gathering Online eXchange
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05:12:21 <shachaf> `welcome aloril
05:12:22 <HackEgo> aloril: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
05:12:23 <zzo38> Also, only permanents can be destroyed, sacrificed, attached to other objects/players, have status, etc
05:12:52 <shachaf> But a permanent can be phased out.
05:13:17 <zzo38> Yes; only permanents can be phased out (and most effects ignore them while phased out).
05:13:39 <pikhq> Thankfully nothing can go in the phased out zone anymore.
05:13:56 <shachaf> There was a phased out zone?
05:14:01 <pikhq> Yes.
05:14:08 <zzo38> There used to be. Not any more.
05:14:15 <pikhq> Phasing has had many, *many* hacks to make it work in the past.
05:14:17 <shachaf> I guess it was just a phase.
05:14:20 <pikhq> One of those hacks was a zone.
05:14:34 <zzo38> (A custom card I made up some time ago got a different function due to them changing this rule actually.)
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05:15:42 <oerjan> <shachaf> I wish there was a Magic: The Gathering Online eXchange <-- all it takes is one big bitcoin investment hth
05:15:45 <zzo38> If not playing in an official tournament, you may also use proxies, by agreement of players involved; and custom cards, by agreement of players involved. So purchasing the cards is not always necessary. If playing Limited format tournament, you need not bring your own cards (it won't help anyways); you can purchase cards as part of the entry fee.
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05:17:53 <zzo38> I always keep track of rule changes to Magic: the Gathering, far more often than I play, actually.
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05:40:19 <oerjan> very sound logic in today's girl genius.
06:19:46 <izalove> i bought a pair of headphones that are so unconfortable they're killing my ears
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06:19:48 <izalove> i'm in hell
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06:37:28 * oerjan sets fire to izalove's headphones
06:38:52 <izalove> thanks
06:56:40 <\oren\> http://orenwatson.be/KSP/MurcielagoAtMun.PNG
06:57:29 <izalove> nice sunset
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07:57:18 <Taneb> Good morning
07:57:25 <Taneb> @messages-loud
07:57:25 <lambdabot> shachaf said 7h 21m 32s ago: oerjan says it's really quite simple hth
07:57:25 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 7h 11m 31s ago: does that mean it's star trek
07:57:47 <Taneb> oerjan, in this case, ST stands for Student Tele
07:59:30 <oerjan> fiendish
08:00:10 <oerjan> @tell Taneb and yes, it's quite simple.
08:00:35 <Taneb> (the VN then stands for vision Network)
08:00:52 <Taneb> I'll link you all the episodes as they go online
08:05:49 <quintopia> `unidecode Ć̨̽͑ͨ̏ͬ̈́̈͋͆͛͒ͩͥ̆̈́̑͗̑͢͏̡̟̳̤̝͈̼̗̦̝̯̤̦̝̘̩̣͡ͅỏ͂̈́͊́ͬͩ҉͉̥͖̬͙̹̻̫̼̬́͜͝ͅͅǘ̢ͧͭͧ̽̽̏̂̔ͤ̃̇̿҉̡̼̬͖̞͖͈̙͓̙̱̩̹ͅľ̸̨͚̖͇͈͔̘̟̺ͮ̀̓͐̽̾̂ͣͣͧ́̽̀̈́̕͜͜ḋͯ̾̀ͨ̆ͩͯ̾ͮ̂҉̷̟̥̻̠̞̮̺̫̖͍̪̼̳̗̘͈̠̻̣ ̷̻̹̰̖͇̬̺̗͙̩̙͔̻̻̘̟̻͎͙ͦ͊̄ͣ̇ͮ̾ͯ̾̓͂͂ͨ̍͑̈͒͠
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08:45:32 <hppavilion[1]> ...woooooooooooooow
08:45:53 <hppavilion[1]> Albany was considering a law that'd make it a crime to walk away from Airport security (as in, leaving the airport without boarding your flight)
08:47:02 <hppavilion[1]> ...OK, I'm beginning to think Hillary might ACTUALLY have some health issues
08:47:42 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, I don't see why she'd run for President if she did (unless she was in denial or figured it wouldn't kill her in the next 8 years)
08:48:11 <myname> becaus at least it's not trump?
08:48:31 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Hillary is /marginally/ better than Trump?
08:48:39 <hppavilion[1]> It boils down to shot in the leg vs. shot in the head to me
08:49:29 <hppavilion[1]> OTOH, the signs showed up during a 9/11 ceremony (she nearly collapsed when leaving, claiming she felt overheated. Trump is, of course, going to say something about how she was just bored and looking for an excuse to leave, because c'mon, it's Trump and that's exactly the kind of crazy thing he'd say), so it could've just been an emotional thing
08:49:30 <myname> welcome tp the usa :p
08:49:50 <hppavilion[1]> But I'm pretty sure being emotional /doesn't/ cause your legs to give out usually; wouldn't it generally be the opposite?
08:50:30 <hppavilion[1]> No, the video doesn't look like that: https://twitter.com/zgazda66/status/774993814025011200/video/1
08:51:35 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], BBC is reporting she's been diagnosed with pneumonia
08:51:40 <myname> but tbh, outlook in germany is not that great either
08:52:29 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Yeah, I think the world is either going to end in the next 2 years or this is going to be a long boring period that you'll have to learn about in history where everything sucked
08:55:21 <hppavilion[1]> If I ever shoot a video the news starts asking to use, I'm going to have to make some absurd condition
08:56:01 <hppavilion[1]> Like, "Yes, but only if you say 'All glory to ba'al the soul-eater' on air"
08:56:46 <hppavilion[1]> No, "Cthulhu fhtagn"
09:29:48 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: if she drops out, then Tim Kaine (her VP) would be a much better president probably
09:30:32 <hppavilion[1]> If a nominee drops out, does their running mate become the nominee?
09:30:38 <\oren\> sometimes
09:30:59 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: basically, the DNC would decide by a new vote of the delegates
09:31:06 <\oren\> or something
09:31:16 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, yep, looks like she actually has pneumonia
09:31:36 <\oren\> she was seen giving hug today to little children
09:31:52 <\oren\> pneumonia is a huge cause of death for children under 6
09:32:35 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Your point?
09:33:11 <hppavilion[1]> As in, if it's contagious (is pneumonia contagious? I've always thought it was a symptom of various things, some of which are contagious) she might have passed it?
09:33:13 <\oren\> my point is pneumonia is really contagious
09:33:25 <\oren\> or most causes anyway
09:33:51 <\oren\> so, then you can narrow it down to causes that aren't contagious
09:34:07 <hppavilion[1]> Looking at the news, I feel like we're on an exponential curve towards a tipping point at which there is an anticlimactic resolution
09:34:25 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Unless she didn't know
09:34:42 <\oren\> whe supposedly was diagnosed on friday
09:37:18 <\oren\> anyway, one cause of pneumonia is stroke
09:38:31 <hppavilion[1]> Oh
09:38:44 <\oren\> another is parkinson's disease
09:38:44 <hppavilion[1]> I'm beginning to think there might be a serial killer on the loose in anchorage
09:39:06 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I think we're looking at this wrong; do lizards get pneumonia?
09:39:53 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, WTF, there was a double murder at Valley of the Moon‽
09:39:55 <\oren\> probably. lizards have lungs
09:44:51 <hppavilion[1]> Woooooooow, APD doesn't broadcast the police scanner anymore (and they encrypt the stream)
09:46:35 <shachaf> I'm relieved that you mean Anchorage and not Atherton.
09:47:02 <shachaf> http://www.mercurynews.com/2011/08/27/the-best-of-atherton-police-blotter/
10:00:07 <hppavilion[1]> Yeah, I'm convinced, definitely a serial killer
10:18:12 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( If somebody comes out as gay on Wikipedia, does that constitute original research? )
10:29:58 <fizzie> The official "overheated" explanation suggests more robots than lizards.
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10:43:14 <izalove> dialogue between coworker that does webthings and coworker that does zfs:
10:43:22 <izalove> - why are we still using less in 2016?
10:43:31 <izalove> - less? the command line pager?
10:43:52 <izalove> - no, less is... do you know coffeescript? well, less is to css like coffeescript is to js
10:44:06 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Um, lizards are coldblooded and need to move in and out of sunlight to control body temperature. hth.
10:44:06 <izalove> - . . . <gazes into the void>
10:48:57 <hppavilion[1]> No new xkcd yet!?
10:52:29 <hppavilion[1]> Darn, I want to read a dinosaur comics that is more historically accurate AND where t rex wears more :,(
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10:59:23 <\oren\> my theory is that trump is increasing his stamina using amphetamines, i.e. adderall
10:59:58 <\oren\> he's always jittery
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12:10:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Logicode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49711&oldid=49694 * Qwerp-Derp * (+102)
12:22:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Logicode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49712&oldid=49697 * Qwerp-Derp * (+309)
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17:15:12 <moonythedwarf> Boop
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18:31:44 <izalove> beep
18:38:31 <izalove> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1527.pdf very interesting
18:38:40 <izalove> why is there no link bot in this chan?
18:38:44 <izalove> can i bring mine?
18:39:51 <nortti> https://fliptomato.wordpress.com/2007/03/19/medical-researcher-discovers-integration-gets-75-citations/
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18:52:03 <wob_jonas> WTF that's even worse!
18:54:54 <wob_jonas> That means eight new expansion symbols per year. Four for ordinary expert level expansion sets, two for this "Masterpiece Series" they just announced (why don't they just print the expansion set's symbol in a different color for that), one for a casual supplementary product and one for a duel decks.
18:54:57 <wob_jonas> That's horrible!
18:55:30 <wob_jonas> Though at least now they have the set code printed at the bottom, but still.
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18:58:03 <wob_jonas> Although at least these cards will probably be rare, so maybe there's only six expansion symbols per year I'll commonly see.
19:01:55 <wob_jonas> ( Magic: the Gathering stuff)
19:01:56 <idris-bot> (input):1:6: error: expected: "#",
19:01:56 <idris-bot> "$", "&", "&&", "&&&", "*!>",
19:01:56 <idris-bot> "*", "***", "*>", "*>|", "+",
19:01:56 <idris-bot> "++", "+++", "-", "->", ".",
19:01:56 <idris-bot> "/", "/=", ":+", ":-", "::",↵…
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19:18:32 <zzo38> Do you like this? [:trigger [:upkeep :you]; :iif [:equal [:life :you], 1]; :do [:win :you]]
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19:48:56 <LKoen> what's iif?
19:49:27 <myname> i guess :iff
19:55:43 <zzo38> Intervening if clause
19:56:20 <shachaf> zzo38: I like the general idea. I'm not sure about the specific syntax and semantics.
19:58:41 <zzo38> What might you suggest to change? The syntax is RDF syntax.
20:00:02 <shachaf> I'm not yet sure what it should look like.
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20:13:00 <zzo38> I think this format can help to implement effects of Magic: the Gathering cards in computer program, as well as to search the card database by effect (such as with Gremlin or SPARQL or whatever) instead of only by text.
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20:18:41 <shachaf> zzo38: What I want is a small core set of rules, and for most keywords and so on to be implemented in a "standard library".
20:19:01 <shachaf> Which just uses the same language that's used on cards.
20:19:52 <zzo38> I did too intend that keywords can be implemented in a standard library too, as well as various other rules can be implemented in a standard library
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21:14:47 <fizzie> What's a "link bot"?
21:15:34 <nortti> a title displayer, I guess
21:15:51 <shachaf> I don't think that's a good idea.
21:15:57 <fizzie> I wouldn't expect one of those do anything reasonable with a .pdf.
21:16:06 <shachaf> But you can put your bot in here and have it /msg you the titles of links.
21:16:17 <shachaf> fizzie: Why not?
21:16:30 <fizzie> I don't know, it seems like much to expect.
21:16:35 <wob_jonas> or make it dispay titles, but not for every link it sees, but only when he's addressed?
21:16:49 <wob_jonas> perlbot, head http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:16:56 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure it has that command
21:17:10 <wob_jonas> oh right, perlbot isn't here
21:17:34 <wob_jonas> but it answers in private
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21:17:52 <wob_jonas> I mean, answers when private messaged
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21:25:48 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnZb-ibenFA
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22:34:26 <izalove> idea for a hash table:
22:34:40 <izalove> - generate a bunch of primes
22:35:28 <izalove> - when you first allocate a new hash table, associate it the first prime in the list
22:35:55 <izalove> - when inserting, hash the key and multiply it by the table's current prime
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22:36:31 <izalove> if we get a collision, check the next k elements where k may be 1 for example
22:37:12 <izalove> - if all the next k elements are occupied, we choose the next prime and try to rehash all the keys
22:37:38 <izalove> - if we run out of primes, resize the hash table
22:39:40 <izalove> if we fix k, this guarantees O(1) worst case search time, O(n) worst case insertion time and O(1) avg insertion time, right?
22:40:53 <izalove> which would be great if you access the elements way more often than you insert them
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22:42:26 <wob_jonas> Wait, what did I miss. Who is izalove?
22:42:30 <izalove> it's me
22:42:35 <olsner> (some version of) java used a simple formula like doing 3x+1 with a magic number starting point, iirc that generated a series of primes up to a billion
22:42:47 <wob_jonas> Have I seen you here before, possibly under a different nick?
22:42:55 <izalove> izabera maybe
22:42:58 <wob_jonas> ah!
22:43:01 <wob_jonas> indeed
22:43:17 <wob_jonas> so it's just an alternate nick
22:43:35 <izalove> planning to keep it for a while at least
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22:44:39 <izalove> so is that a super bad idea?
22:44:52 <izalove> i haven't implemented it yet so i dunno how well it works
22:47:33 <myname> how do you "check forbthe next element"?
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22:48:22 <izalove> if (!strcmp(key, table[hash+1].key))
22:48:28 <izalove> or something
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22:50:19 <myname> i don't get the role of the primes unless you make hash functions that hash to primes
22:50:31 <izalove> oh uhm
22:51:13 <myname> or at least make it unlikely to have "relevant" divisors
22:51:24 <izalove> good point
22:51:48 <izalove> scratch the idea
22:52:00 <izalove> instead let's use a set of different hash functions
22:52:50 <myname> you know cuckoo hashing?
22:52:53 <izalove> yes
22:53:30 <izalove> that's probably better eh?
22:55:01 <izalove> the primes thing was just to have an easy way to generate hash functions
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22:55:43 <izalove> i guess one can use a hash function that outputs 64 bits and do something like (hi32 * prime) ^ lo32
22:56:07 <izalove> does that look reasonable?
22:58:27 <zzo38> I cannot figure out how to make a addon for Node.js (and on #Node.js channel, they don't help either). I looked at the NAN package but I do not understand it.
22:59:46 <myname> that does spund esoteric enough
23:00:48 <zzo38> While FFI is too slow.
23:01:40 <zzo38> And some other stuff I have found fails to compile on this version of Node.js
23:01:49 <wob_jonas> zzo38: that sounds bad. I hope you'll find other people on the internet who understand node.js and can help you.
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23:10:03 <zzo38> I found a few different packages for accessing SQLite from JavaScript but none of them are very good.
23:14:13 <zzo38> None of them allow implement virtual table modules or VFS. I found sql.js which implements SQLite entirely in JavaScript (so there is no need for native addons), although it only works with in-memory databases (VFS support could avoid this limitation), and since it is implemented entirely in JavaScript it cannot use SQLite extensions.
23:14:52 <wob_jonas> that latter is scary
23:15:09 <wob_jonas> so can you perhaps take one of the existing extensions, if they're of a good quality, and extend them?
23:22:08 <zzo38> What latter is scary?
23:23:25 <wob_jonas> zzo38: the part where they implement it in node.js
23:26:10 <zzo38> Why are addons so difficult?
23:27:40 <zzo38> I have seen someone wanted to add built-in FFI support to V8 and that would improve it a lot. But, they don't do that yet
23:29:01 <wob_jonas> zzo38: can I ask why you're using node.js?
23:29:10 <wob_jonas> I'm just curious
23:29:56 <zzo38> It is to execute a JavaScript program, so that I can write a JavaScript program with
23:30:45 <wob_jonas> ok
23:40:04 <zzo38> I would expect that communicating through a pipe would be as slow as FFI, I think? Node.js doesn't even have a function to create a pipe.
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23:45:43 <zzo38> Do you know any C++ programming?
23:47:32 <wob_jonas> who, me? yes
23:49:50 <zzo38> Maybe you would know how to do it then.
23:49:56 <hppavilion[1]> Potentially-useful function: sign-preserving power
23:50:53 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Yes, I think in some circumstances it can help.
23:50:54 <hppavilion[1]> b^'p = sgn(b)*abs(b)^p
23:51:03 <wob_jonas> how to do what?
23:51:13 <zzo38> (I have had use for such in some program I have written once)
23:51:13 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: The most notable circumstance, I think, is root-mean-square
23:51:38 <hppavilion[1]> Because negative numbers don't really go well in the root-mean-square AFAICT (they become positive)
23:51:42 <zzo38> wob_jonas: How to do Node.js extension with NAN. I read the documentation but I don't understand so well
23:52:04 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I don't know anything about node.js
23:52:26 <hppavilion[1]> So replace the square root with the sign-preserving square root and instead of squaring numbers, sign-preserving square them
23:55:30 <tswett> At least some of the time, negative numbers are *supposed* to become positive when you root-mean-square them.
23:55:31 <tswett> Root-mean-square is usually about getting the "magnitude" of something... I think.
23:55:50 <tswett> One example is the way that we talk about AC voltage.
23:56:08 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I thought it was just a different version of average with some different benefits and downsides
23:56:10 <tswett> When people talk about "120 volts AC", that means AC with a RMS of 120 volts.
23:56:23 <hppavilion[1]> (Traditionally, is the distance between two complex numbers real or complex? E.g. do you just find the absolute value of the difference of their absolute values, or would it actually be complex itself?)
23:56:53 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Look at the documentation for NAN and see if you can understand that if you know any C++ programming.
23:56:57 <tswett> The distance between two complex numbers is the absolute value of their difference. So it's always real and nonnegative.
23:57:05 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Ah
23:57:36 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( sqrt((a-c)^2+((b-d)^2)i) )
23:57:37 <wob_jonas> zzo38: got a link?
23:58:17 <zzo38> wob_jonas: https://github.com/nodejs/nan
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