←2016-09-12 2016-09-13 2016-09-14→ ↑2016 ↑all
00:00:20 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sorry, I'm not going to try to understand that now
00:00:57 <zzo38> OK
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00:11:36 <tswett> Sigh. There's this language I'm creating... I think I'm calling it Tokiber.
00:11:36 <tswett> This language is experimental and will probably never be implemented.
00:12:02 <tswett> It's kind of funny how it's turning out so far.
00:12:35 <tswett> Examples of things I have figured out how to define: monoids, groups, rings, categories, functors, natural transformations.
00:12:44 <tswett> Example of something I haven't figured out how to define: addition.
00:16:56 <oerjan> tunes isn't loading :(
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01:21:03 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Try defining subtraction; then you just do a-(0-b)
01:21:35 <tswett> That would be great, except that I've only defined the natural numbers, not the integers.
01:21:42 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: laaaaaaame
01:21:51 <hppavilion[1]> (What's the language like?)
01:22:04 <tswett> It's like a deranged version of Haskell.
01:22:11 <hppavilion[1]> If all nuclear powers made a no-first-use policy, would nuclear weapons even be useful?
01:22:47 <hppavilion[1]> (How about "no-first-use, but only for countries that have the same policy or a total no-first-use policy?)
01:22:50 <tswett> Well, if everyone is obeying a no-first-use policy, then nobody can ever use nuclear weapons.
01:22:59 <hppavilion[1]> s/\)/"\)/
01:23:04 <hppavilion[1]> Excellent, excellent
01:23:11 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: What's the policy on chemical weapons?
01:23:12 <tswett> Making them useless.
01:23:27 <wob_jonas> tswett: I have a definition of integer addition in Haskell at http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/Bin.hs , maybe try to derange that
01:24:33 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Can you do 2-tuples?
01:24:38 <hppavilion[1]> And booleans?
01:24:46 <tswett> Yeah, it has 2-tuples and booleans.
01:24:49 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: nuclear weapons are useful to prevent others from changing their minds about using them hth
01:25:00 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yeah, that's what I figured
01:25:06 <tswett> The definition of booleans is a little weird.
01:25:37 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: OK, then an integer is (Nat, Bool). If the boolean is true, it's negative, if it's false, it's the same as the Nat
01:25:40 <tswett> theory BoolType { sort Bool; true : Bool; false : Bool; }
01:26:18 <tswett> Now, how do I define subtraction on integers without already having defined addition on natural numbers?
01:29:24 <wob_jonas> tswett: see the definitions I linked? it defines addition and subtraction independetly. though you can also define them together, if you want shorter definitions, like
01:30:47 <wob_jonas> in http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=849296 where I define addition, subtraction, and comparison all together, although that only works for natural numbers
01:30:57 <hppavilion[1]> "General of the Armies" is apparently the highest available military rank (basically a 6-star general). George Washington was posthumously promoted; only one American has ever received it while alive
01:31:06 <hppavilion[1]> (Well, highest army rank)
01:31:09 <wob_jonas> but that latter is cheating, it uses a lot of perl's builtins
01:31:29 <wob_jonas> so look at the haskell one, which defines the operations straight with pattern matching on algebraic types
01:32:31 <tswett> Note that I think the hard part here is defining the *language*.
01:33:03 <tswett> I'm not having trouble defining addition; I'm having trouble deciding which language features to add in order to allow myself to define addition.
01:33:12 <wob_jonas> tswett: ok
01:33:32 <hppavilion[1]> 0.5+sqrt(1.25)-star general
01:34:08 <wob_jonas> then it's easier, I prefer languages that have arithmetic built-in, so why don't you add arithmetic as a language feature?
01:34:37 <tswett> Because I don't have to.
01:35:33 <tswett> All right. I think I've figured it out.
01:35:47 <tswett> I'm gonna post some stuff.
01:35:56 <tswett> Paste some stuff, rather.
01:36:01 <wob_jonas> but if you don't want any arithmetic built-ins, then I recommend my haskell code, because it shows how to define addition and subtraction and multiplication and division of integers represented in binary from the ground up
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01:38:22 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, legally, George Washington outranks everyone forever.
01:39:16 <wob_jonas> hpp: how can he outrank everyone forever? can't people just invent higher ranks later? like, if I take over the world and name myself dictator, then I give myself whatever titles and ranks I want.
01:40:04 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Yeah, but if a higher rank is created he gets promoted to it
01:40:23 <wob_jonas> not if I'm a dictator
01:40:24 <hppavilion[1]> (It may take them a while to remember to do that though)
01:40:29 <shachaf> He doesn't outrank me.
01:40:41 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Well if you're a dictator, the US no longer exists so that law is void
01:41:10 <tswett> http://lpaste.net/192258 - addition and multiplication defined in my language.
01:41:28 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Also, outranks in the army. Dictator is political
01:41:40 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Does a dictator count as a politician? )
01:41:53 <tswett> Yeah, dictators decide policy. That makes them politicians.
01:44:27 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: It just doesn't feel right to call them that though; they don't have to worry about "approval ratings" or "not being evil"
01:48:48 <tswett> Right.
01:48:51 <tswett> Lemme look up the definition...
01:49:31 <tswett> "One engaged in politics, especially an elected or appointed government official." https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/politician
01:49:49 <tswett> Google says: "a person who is professionally involved in politics, especially as a holder of or a candidate for an elected office."
01:50:07 <tswett> So the holder of an elected political office is definitely a politician.
01:50:21 <tswett> I think I'd say that you're still a politician even if the office isn't elected.
01:58:15 <wob_jonas> tswett: so does this language have deranged GADT so you can define types with higher-rank polymorphism and non-uniform recursive functions on them?
01:58:52 <wob_jonas> No, I mean, does it have deranged GADT so you can define types with deranged higher-rank polymorphism and deranged non-uniform recursive functions on them?
01:58:56 <tswett> So far I don't think I have any kind of polymorphism at all. I don't know what a non-uniform recursive function is.
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02:04:31 <tswett> Hmm. My next challenge will be defining lists.
02:05:06 <wob_jonas> tswett: I think you'll need polymorphism to define lists in general
02:05:53 <hppavilion[1]> ...wait, why is the UK not called the United Queendom?
02:06:36 <tswett> wob_jonas: yup. Lists are kind of inherently a polymorphic thing.
02:06:51 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: they'd have to change their name every time the monarch changes genders.
02:07:25 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Their national anthem is "God Save the Queen"
02:07:51 <hppavilion[1]> If their monarch was a cross-dressing man, would it still be "God Save the [Drag] Queen"?
02:08:20 <tswett> Wikipedia says that the name of the national anthem *does* change every time the monarch changes genders.
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02:11:06 <wob_jonas> Also, they change the portrait of the queen on coins
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02:19:22 <oerjan> hm so do norwegians. not sure about the song thing (it's not our national anthem, but we have a king song with the same melody as the english one. in two generations we might get our first modern queen, too. i can see a slight scansion problem with changing the lyrics...)
02:19:22 <hppavilion[1]> If one were to personify countries and other government (and non-government) organizations, how would subdivisions and such work?
02:19:44 <hppavilion[1]> Would US states be younger siblings or children of the US? And what about the Confederacy?
02:20:24 <oerjan> (they use to play both songs when the king holds his new year speech)
02:20:58 <oerjan> *modern queen regnant
02:21:09 <hppavilion[1]> I feel like the Confederacy should be a child of the US (and the US the child of the UK), but then the US states can't be that because a rebellion is distinctly different from a subsidiary government (duh)
02:22:28 <oerjan> (the scansion problem is that the norwegian equivalents of "him" and "her" don't have the same number of syllables.)
02:23:35 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: That was my point
02:24:09 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Your language is terrible hth
02:24:33 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: "ham" vs "henne" is terrible?
02:25:10 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yes. The syllables of common words with almost identical meaning that only vary by context must be equal
02:25:34 <Phantom_Hoover> the confederacy and the union should be like in fight club obv.
02:26:56 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Wat?
02:27:00 <wob_jonas> oerjan: that doesn't sound like a big problem. I mean, the poets who write the text of these anthems and other songs can work that around and make lyrics for both version.
02:27:02 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: I'm going for familial relations
02:27:20 <Phantom_Hoover> well your alternate personality is surely a family member
02:27:28 <hppavilion[1]> True...
02:27:29 <oerjan> wob_jonas: the lyrics for the male version is already traditional, though.
02:27:31 <hppavilion[1]> Ooooooh
02:27:53 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: You mean like [SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO ARE TERRIBLE] how Brad Pitt is all in his head?
02:28:06 <Phantom_Hoover> y
02:28:17 <hppavilion[1]> OK
02:28:22 <hppavilion[1]> That makes some sense I guess
02:28:24 <oerjan> *are
02:29:11 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: they'd work like Steven Universe.
02:29:24 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose that works? But it doesn't feel right, because if the confederacy had succeeded it'd be a distinct country
02:29:39 <tswett> The United States is a single person that can split into 50 people (and a bunch of territories).
02:29:48 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: which reminds me that russian is also terrible: он vs. она
02:29:49 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Nopenopenopenopenope
02:29:51 <tswett> And they can fuse back into one person.
02:29:53 <wob_jonas> oerjan: so what's the solution?
02:30:02 <hppavilion[1]> Successor/splinter nations have to be children, I feel, but constituent states should be too...
02:30:03 <wob_jonas> tswett: oh, a superhero!
02:30:06 <oerjan> and so is latin: is vs. ea
02:30:42 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Also, what if I need Texas to talk to the US as a whole?
02:31:07 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, I guess I could just not be particularly clear as to how it works, but that doesn't seem as fun
02:32:27 <hppavilion[1]> (And there's also the problem of other things- what the hell are the Democratic Party and the Republican Party? I guess they could be siblings?)
02:32:34 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: go, went, gone
02:33:23 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose I could add some non-human stuff to it; both states AND rebellions would be be children, but rebellions are distinct in that they can just kind of separate
02:34:47 <oerjan> wob_jonas: solution? i dunno. they've got a generation or so to find out.
02:35:59 <wob_jonas> oerjan: wait by "traditional", you don't mean it's been used for so long that there's been many kings and queens since, right
02:36:42 <oerjan> wob_jonas: there hasn't been a queen regnant since medieval times
02:36:59 <wob_jonas> I see
02:37:03 <oerjan> long before the song was composed.
02:37:14 <wob_jonas> makes sense
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02:37:58 <oerjan> in fact, it's only with the current generation the laws were changed to make a queen regnant _legal_
02:38:09 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I don't really know how that works.
02:38:20 <oerjan> previously it was agnatic primogeniture
02:39:24 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: have you considered that the answer to "how does this work" is "it doesn't" hth
02:40:41 <wob_jonas> Yeah, I think Hungary has only had one queen too, queen Mária Terézia, and that was way back when people were traditionally very gender-biased, so she needed some special stuff done by her ancestors so that she can be queen.
02:42:31 <wob_jonas> Nope, I'm wrong, she wasn't the only queen.
02:43:05 <wob_jonas> There was another queen before her in the Anjou dynasty
02:43:34 <oerjan> the king had elder sisters who were simply left out of the line; the crown prince has an elder sister who is in the line but _after_ him and his descendants. only the next generation will have complete equality.
02:43:59 <oerjan> (of succession)
02:45:38 <oerjan> the only queen regnant in norwegian history was Margrete I, who was also queen of denmark and sweden.
02:47:46 <fizzie> Moreover, in Númenor of old the sceptre descended to the eldest child of the king, whether man or woman. It is true that the law has not been observed in the lands of exile ever troubled by war; but such was the law of our people, to which we now refer, seeing that the sons of Ondoher died childless.
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02:52:08 <oerjan> apparently the mezzacotta people have decided to keep doing privately the puzzle competitions they used to do on behalf of the company http://www.mezzacotta.net/puzzle/
02:52:30 * oerjan has never tried them, just felt like passing on
02:54:07 <wob_jonas> oerjan: yup
02:54:46 <oerjan> dammit now tunes loads but not in the browser
02:56:31 <oerjan> hah it was probably my own demonstration of a lambdabot trick that triggered it.
03:00:45 <oerjan> well that and quintopia's massive `unidecode line right after
03:06:09 <hppavilion[1]> Nabjol (opposite of Lojban): All sentences are exactly the same ("Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn")
03:12:02 <oerjan> @tell izalove <izalove> why is there no link bot in this chan? <-- because i banned the last one hth
03:12:02 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
03:12:14 <shachaf> oerjan: tdh thx hand
03:12:59 <hppavilion[1]> "You know who ELSE used laws to stop debates‽ HILTER!"
03:13:24 <oerjan> yw̼
03:13:41 <shachaf> `unidecode w̼
03:13:46 <shachaf> oerjan: v. clever
03:13:55 <shachaf> oerjan: I didn't get it last time.
03:14:03 <oerjan> and you got it on only my third try!
03:14:14 <shachaf> look
03:14:19 <shachaf> my terminal gets messed up all the time
03:14:33 <oerjan> fiendish
03:15:55 <oerjan> `learn HILTER is what happens when someone combines argumentum ad hitlerum, shouting, and muphry's law in one glorious clusterfuck.
03:15:58 <HackEgo> Learned 'hilter': HILTER is what happens when someone combines argumentum ad hitlerum, shouting, and muphry's law in one glorious clusterfuck.
03:26:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * XxXEliteXxx * New user account
03:26:59 <shachaf> looks promising
03:27:40 <oerjan> you think
03:27:59 <shachaf> XxXYesXxx
03:28:12 <oerjan> hasn't managed to get snagged in the filter yet
03:28:51 <quintopia> have i been pinger
03:29:29 <wob_jonas> dunno, read the logs
03:30:12 <oerjan> quintopia: barely.
03:31:03 <oerjan> hm looks like a vandal rather than a spammer so far
03:31:22 <quintopia> that thing i was unidecoding renders fine for me, but i couldn't even tell what the underlying letters were
03:32:07 <oerjan> `döts fiendish
03:32:09 <HackEgo> fïëndïsḧ
03:33:36 <quintopia> okay...turns out trying to find the optimal tokenization for this coder is REALLY SLOW. even if it compresses like 20% better it won't be worth this ridiculous wait...
03:33:41 <shachaf> oerjan: you are fondish of that word
03:34:17 <quintopia> i am fondish of fondue. it's a fun dish.
03:35:50 <quintopia> (when i go hiking, i prefer a foon dish.)
03:36:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49713&oldid=49681 * XxXEliteXxx * (+200)
03:36:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49714&oldid=49631 * XxXEliteXxx * (-89) Removed unnecessary comment
03:39:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49715&oldid=49714 * XxXEliteXxx * (-62)
03:55:48 <oerjan> shachaf: shocking
03:58:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49716&oldid=49715 * Oerjan * (+89) Undo revision 49714 by [[Special:Contributions/XxXEliteXxx|XxXEliteXxx]] ([[User talk:XxXEliteXxx|talk]]) (This comment is by the language inventor and therefore sacred HTH)
04:00:05 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm still not sure it's promising, but at least it's not a spammer.
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04:32:06 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Wait, would EU be the child or the parent of several countries?
04:32:52 <hppavilion[1]> (The merging of two countries- e.g. East and West Germany- is of course caused by them having a child and then that child getting batman'd
04:32:53 <hppavilion[1]> )
04:33:22 <hppavilion[1]> (Or maybe they'll just adorably merge. Not sure how much I want to real-world it)
04:34:15 <pikhq> De jure East and West Germany didn't merge, instead East Germany was entirely dissolved and its constituent territories joined West Germany.
04:34:32 <wob_jonas> It wasn't an adorable merge.
04:48:02 <zzo38> quintopia: What coder is that?
04:49:06 <izalove> @messages
05:07:01 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Yeah; they merged and WG stuck.
05:07:10 <hppavilion[1]> EG was absorbed into WG
05:11:23 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Was it majestic?
05:11:39 <zzo38> Magic: the Gathering has Urza's Avenger and the variant Jodah's Avenger but I would want to make up this new variant: {0}: ~ gets -1/-1 and gains your choice of banding, flanking, skulk, or menace until end of turn.
05:15:49 <hppavilion[1]> Science: The Agriculturing
05:18:52 <hppavilion[1]> Fuckin morons...
05:19:31 <hppavilion[1]> Pearson Education only lets your password be a-zA-Z0-9@._-
05:19:39 <hppavilion[1]> It also has a MAXIMUM length
05:19:55 <wob_jonas> hpp: what's the maximum length?
05:20:10 <wob_jonas> a maximum length of 1024 bytes or something can be reasonable
05:20:21 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: 32
05:20:25 <hppavilion[1]> 32 characters
05:20:30 <wob_jonas> though I'd prefer 4096 bytes
05:20:36 <wob_jonas> 32? that's too low
05:20:37 <hppavilion[1]> And it encourages the ones humans can't remember but computers can guess
05:20:41 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Yeah. Fucking idiots.
05:21:11 <pikhq> If you use a random string for that then at least you get a reasonable 193 bits of entropy.
05:21:13 <wob_jonas> who are these... oh, Pearson Education! yes, I've met the website of those idiots
05:21:16 <pikhq> But, ugh.
05:22:04 <wob_jonas> it has other problems than that
05:22:20 <oerjan> 32 characters should be enough f
05:23:39 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, but "may we spam you" is unchecked by default
05:24:07 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: It's mandatory for AP Physics
05:25:40 <zzo38> Your password should have a very long maximum length (at least 255, preferably much more), a minimum of perhaps four or five, and allow any sequence of bytes including control characters and invalid UTF-8 sequences and whatever else you want.
05:26:00 <wob_jonas> zzo38: agreed
05:26:19 <hppavilion[1]> Oh well, at least I used a password I've never used before
05:27:07 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Any sequence *longer than a certain length
05:27:09 <wob_jonas> except it shouldn't allow tXqW0J9TC . That's a bad password, especially since it's now in the logs.
05:27:48 <hppavilion[1]> I think these sites should have a minlength and NO other requirements; if you get hacked because someone guesses it, it's your fault for choosing a shitty password
05:28:07 <hppavilion[1]> (There's no way they could just know what is obvious to people who know you)
05:28:20 <wob_jonas> hpp: no no, I think it's completely fine to have SOME max length. I recommend 4096 bytes.
05:28:21 <zzo38> Of course you shouldn't select that password now it is in logs, but I think it shouldn't check anything except the length, and it is up to the user what password they want even if duplicating someone else's password by coincidence.
05:28:22 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Minmax = 4096 bytes; all bits in the byte are independent
05:28:30 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Well yeah, and a max
05:28:34 <zzo38> A maximum length is needed, although it should be very high.
05:28:48 <zzo38> Preferably at least 4096 bytes.
05:29:09 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Yes, the "NO other requirements" was practical, not technical
05:29:49 <hppavilion[1]> (For the average user, "your password can't be more than 4096 bytes" isn't a requirement; it's just assumed because who would ever have a password that long? It's not like there are programs that make absurd passwords for you
05:29:49 <zzo38> If the system cannot handle that, lower it to 255, but you should try to avoid needing to lower it that much I think
05:30:04 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Yes; you CAN lower it, but if you do you aren't using a very good system
05:30:18 <zzo38> Yes I agree, it isn't a very good system if you have to do
05:30:20 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: In fact, any sort of max length is kind of weird; you're hashing the password anyway
05:30:38 <hppavilion[1]> Or if you aren't, YOU ARE DOING THIS WRONG START HASHING THOSE PASSWORDS STAT
05:30:45 <hppavilion[1]> AND ADD SOME SALT
05:30:54 <zzo38> Yes, and what kind of hashing? Yes, hashing and salt should be used.
05:30:57 <hppavilion[1]> AND MEGA-ENCRYPT THE HINTS, DAMMIT
05:31:23 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Good hashing; arguably, any hash works, but a cryptographic hash is what you should use
05:31:25 <zzo38> No mandatory password hints.
05:31:34 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Of course, and no security questions
05:31:37 <hppavilion[1]> *mandatory
05:31:49 <zzo38> Yes, no mandatory security questions either.
05:32:04 <hppavilion[1]> That defeats the purpose of a secure password because people can just check your biography
05:32:21 <hppavilion[1]> Security questions should be optional, and you should be able to add your own
05:32:22 <zzo38> Yes, it does, especially if your security question is that easy!
05:32:42 <zzo38> And yes I agree, if security questions are provided at all, it should be optional and you are allowed to write your own question.
05:33:14 <wob_jonas> What is your mother's maiden name? What is the name of your first pet? What was your favourite class in school?
05:33:16 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Yes, and if it's a bad question it's your own fault
05:33:46 <zzo38> Yes you are right it is your own fault
05:33:57 <wob_jonas> Oh, and your bank card pin code should be the year and month of your child's birthdate.
05:35:03 <zzo38> Four digits maximum is a too short password.
05:35:09 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: I wouldn't use bank card pins unless they let me make them (a) hex (b) 32 digits
05:35:25 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I don't think it's even a real password; the security is in "don't walk off with your card"
05:35:27 <zzo38> The password for your bank card and credit card and whatever should have a much larger maximum than just four digits.
05:35:36 <hppavilion[1]> s/walk off/let other people walk off/
05:35:43 <wob_jonas> hpp: how do you convince everyone with a POS terminal to allow that?
05:36:16 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Anyone who doesn't will be taken into the woods and shot
05:36:23 <zzo38> I think the current system is insecure even if they did make passwords longer actually.
05:36:39 <zzo38> I did propose my own system and protocol, and the customer is allowed to provide their own keypad.
05:36:51 <zzo38> This can also prevent the merchant from cheating by making it display the wrong price.
05:37:16 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Display the wrong price where?
05:37:37 <zzo38> On the keypad for the credit card transaction
05:37:44 <hppavilion[1]> Ah?
05:37:50 <hppavilion[1]> Sounds a little suspicious, but OK
05:38:01 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: You should also be able to set up a separate duress pin that works like the "enter your pin backwards" myth, but actually works
05:38:17 <zzo38> That is why customer should be allowed to use their own keypad with their own software.
05:38:55 <zzo38> And then, based on their own software and on the credit card company's service, other things might be possible such as passwords that automatically change every day if you want to.
05:39:26 <zzo38> (Or alphanumeric passwords, or keypads that move the digits around to make it difficult to watch, or whatever)
05:40:52 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: You should also be able to configure your garage door opener to lock/unlock the garage and disable certain remotes at will
05:40:55 <zzo38> And then, the same protocol is used for the purchase by internet by credit cards; either by connecting your own keypad to the computer or by having a program on your computer tat emulates it.
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05:41:29 <hppavilion[1]> (e.g. "Your remote will only open my garage after 8:00, so you don't use it for non-booty-call-related purposes")
05:41:31 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Possibly someone might figure out such things
05:42:17 <zzo38> Reprogramming the garage mechanism in that way does not seem to be way too difficult, although you may need to install your own computer hardware to control it with
05:42:30 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Yeah, probably
05:42:39 <hppavilion[1]> Also, I want my router to be scriptable
05:42:52 <hppavilion[1]> I want to be able to put a Python program on the router and control how things work
05:43:08 <hppavilion[1]> ("This computer can use the internet, but all images get flipped vertically")
05:43:42 <zzo38> That might be too difficult since it has to figure out what is a picture; there are different formats, different protocols, and different kinds of encryption.
05:45:39 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: upside-down-ternet
05:46:48 <zzo38> Just turn the monitor upsidedown; now the picture is upsidedown and it work regardless of the file format and protocols in use.
05:47:23 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: No, but I want it to work on unsuspecting victims
05:47:30 <hppavilion[1]> Like, conditionallky
05:47:38 <hppavilion[1]> I want my router to be scriptable at will
05:48:24 <zzo38> I too want router to be reprogrammable, but I described why that won't work anyways.
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05:50:07 <zzo38> What you can think of the Magic: the Gathering card I made up shown above?
05:51:42 <wob_jonas> zzo38: that {0} activation morphling? you didn't tell what it costs, the types and p/t
05:51:57 <wob_jonas> can you show the full card?
05:53:12 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: In fact, I think many of them are reprogrammable
05:57:58 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, Squid (http://www.squid-cache.org/) does something like this, it looks like
05:58:32 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Look at Urza's Avenger and Jodah's Avenger; I intended to be similar to that, although such details could differ from those possibly. Those ones cost six mana to cast and are 4/4
05:59:14 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Urza's Avenger
05:59:15 <HackEgo> Urza's Avenger \ 6 \ Artifact Creature -- Shapeshifter \ 4/4 \ {0}: Urza's Avenger gets -1/-1 and gains your choice of banding, flying, first strike, or trample until end of turn. (Any creatures with banding, and up to one without, can attack in a band. Bands are blocked as a group. If any creatures with banding you control are blocking or being bl
05:59:21 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Jodah's Avenger
05:59:22 <HackEgo> Jodah's Avenger \ 5U \ Creature -- Shapeshifter \ 4/4 \ {0}: Until end of turn, Jodah's Avenger gets -1/-1 and gains your choice of double strike, protection from red, vigilance, or shadow. (A creature with shadow can block or be blocked by only creatures with shadow.) \ PLC-U
06:07:35 <zzo38> Now do you know if you think of what I wrote?
06:09:41 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: What would be the uses of fully-scriptable routers do you think?
06:11:10 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Program more versatile incoming and outgoing filters, logs, automatic dynamic DNS update, automatic time update, port knocking, etc.
06:12:00 <zzo38> Dynamic Wi-Fi passwords (if you have a wireless router), and perhaps even to alter which services are available depending which password is used.
06:12:54 <wob_jonas> no, sorry
06:13:14 <wob_jonas> from a router, I prefer low latency and high bandwidth of transferring data on the network over versatile filters
06:14:04 <zzo38> Yes, although sometimes having more filters can be more useful especially if written in C or whatever instead of Python.
06:14:50 <zzo38> Program can be recompiled if you want to alter the filters.
06:15:02 <wob_jonas> no, routers shouldn't mess with filters. they should just transfer my data in the right route
06:15:30 <zzo38> Sometimes the filter is needed in order to decide what route, though.
06:16:11 <wob_jonas> no way. finding the right route is done by magic, not filters.
06:16:14 <wob_jonas> filters can't do that.
06:16:59 <zzo38> Then allow it to be reprogrammed by magic and then recompiled if the setting needs changed, instead of by filters.
06:20:32 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Ooooh
06:20:51 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Then you use the low-latency high-bandwidth password
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09:55:23 <myname> https://twitter.com/Verbalneurotik/status/756743574276956160 dafuq did i just watch
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11:23:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kenrube * New user account
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11:37:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49717&oldid=49713 * Kenrube * (+166) /* Introductions */
11:38:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Polyglot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49718&oldid=49118 * Kenrube * (-44)
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17:11:20 <zzo38> A new custom Magic: the Gathering card (cost, name, and type, currently unknown): Cast ~ only during your precombat main phase. ;; Creatures can't attack players. ;; Phasing
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18:26:21 <\oren\> does js even distiguish between when obj.member is not present versus present and set to null?
18:27:18 <zzo38> Yes
18:27:41 <zzo38> Also, if not present in the object or in its prototype chain, the value will be undefined, which is different from null.
18:28:39 <zzo38> Try: Object.keys({y:undefined,x:undefined,z:null})
18:29:14 <shachaf> But you can always "undefined = null"
18:30:09 <zzo38> Yes, since "undefined" is not a keyword
18:31:02 <zzo38> You can write void(0) instead
18:31:19 <zzo38> Or you can write (()=>{})()
18:31:29 <\oren\> the point is can you test whether obj has the member x?
18:31:43 <zzo38> Yes you can test that!
18:32:07 <\oren\> ok, so what I'm doing makes sense then.
18:32:27 <zzo38> You can use the "in" operator, and you can use Object.keys
18:32:46 <\oren\> I'm using a member being present as opposed to absent to signal the client ot do something
18:33:07 <\oren\> even if that member is null
18:33:33 <zzo38> Yes, although the default value of a nonexistent property is undefined instead of null.
18:38:02 <EvilFly> Lua is the one that doesn't distinguish between the two
18:38:05 <zzo38> (Although, the "in" operator checks in the entire prototype chain and not just the object itself. You can use Object.getOwnPropertyDescriptor to check for the existence on only the object itself.)
18:38:23 <EvilFly> (setting a member to nil is how you "delete" the member; they're intetionally not distinguishable from inside the language as far as I know)
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19:53:08 <\oren\> hippavilion[!]
19:54:17 <\oren\> man the usa is turning into a giant basket of deplorable frogs
19:54:44 <shachaf> FireFly: why are you evil twh
19:54:56 <shachaf> (the wolves howl)
19:55:08 <FireFly> Well I felt evil for a while, but then it passed
19:55:30 <\oren\> shachaf: are you a deplorable frog yet?
19:55:36 <shachaf> What?
19:55:45 <shachaf> Wouldn't an evil person also claim that it passed?
19:56:14 <\oren\> https://www.hillaryclinton.com/post/donald-trump-pepe-the-frog-and-white-supremacists-an-explainer/
19:56:47 <\oren\> hillary clinton's campaign now claims that pepe the frog is an official mascot of deplorable white supremacists
19:57:22 <Slereah> Well it kinda is
19:57:24 <APic> Why would any Person be evil?
19:58:11 <shachaf> FireFly is a firefly, I think.
19:58:57 * FireFly glows
19:58:59 <APic> Ok.
19:59:11 * APic is mostly polymorphed into a grinning Cat.
19:59:21 <int-e> APic: I believe few people consider themselves to be evil.
19:59:27 <\oren\> Slereah: I can't beleive it's gotten to this point. us canadians should just invade, declare martial law, and feed americans tim hortons until they regain sanity
19:59:37 <APic> int-e: True.
19:59:45 <shachaf> i,i US Canadians
20:01:07 <\oren\> you know, like a UN intervention deal type thing
20:01:24 <\oren\> canadians are good at that
20:01:40 <shachaf> Canada is too big.
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20:02:08 <shachaf> But Canadians are all right next to the US border. Probably all wishing they could get in.
20:02:32 <\oren\> nah, we're preparing for the invasion
20:03:32 <\oren\> like as soon as the us governemnt fully collapses.
20:03:57 <\oren\> you're about, oh, frog percent collapsed right now
20:04:21 <APic> Many People cannot count, yes.
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20:23:47 <\oren\> that was a big netsplit
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20:23:48 <int-e> mmm
20:23:48 <\oren\> ah, there you are, lambdabot!
20:23:48 <\oren\> @messages-
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20:24:08 <lambdabot> oerjan said 11d 20h 38m 23s ago: yes, yes (in nynorsk), neither (en:egg = no:egg)
20:24:08 <lambdabot> oerjan said 11d 20h 38m 4s ago: in fact i vaguely recall english borrowed it from us hth
20:24:08 <lambdabot> oerjan said 11d 19h 56m 36s ago: there's a bug so you cannot `revert a new file creation properly hth
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20:52:01 <hppavilion[1]> So e := summ(0, inf, λ k -> 1/fact(k))
20:52:48 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a use for se := summ(0, inf, λ k -> 1/subfact(k))?
20:53:40 <hppavilion[1]> (let's call it u (e is the 0th letter of euler; u is the 1th))
20:54:11 <hppavilion[1]> (Wait, subfact(1) = 0, so it's undefined unless we drop 1)
20:55:06 <hppavilion[1]> (I'll just say n/0 is 0 for now)
20:56:14 <int-e> `? bug
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20:58:19 <int-e> apparently we don't have an entry for "bug". http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/70f188fce734/wisdom/bugbear is the closest one.
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21:14:55 <hppavilion[1]> Calculated; u ~= 2.6382270745053713
21:15:51 <izalove> i did shuf -n 10000000 -r /usr/share/dict/words > /tmp/src which takes my words file with ~100k words and produces a file with 10M words from it
21:16:25 <izalove> then i wrote a program that reads a million lines and inserts them in a hash table, then loops over the remaining lines and searches them in that table
21:16:46 <izalove> and it does insert and search twice and compares my hash table with gcc's std::unordered_map
21:16:54 <izalove> https://arin.ga/sQLCpu/raw this is the result
21:16:58 <izalove> what's better?
21:20:21 <hppavilion[1]> Is there any use for u?
21:20:51 <izalove> that's... not very nice
21:21:08 <hppavilion[1]> ln(x) := log(x, e); ld(x) := log(x, u)
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21:25:01 <hppavilion[1]> (based on the assumption "ln" is short for "logarithm natural" ("natural logarithm" properly, probably translated from French where it would be french('logarithm')+' '+french('natural')), so "ld" is "logarithm deranged" or "deranged logarithm", because u is the deranged Euler constant)
21:25:01 <shachaf> subfact?
21:25:18 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Subfactorial; derangement
21:26:18 <hppavilion[1]> fact(n) is the number of ways to arrange n objects, whereas subfact(n) is the number of ways to rearrange n objects (that already have a set order) such that no object is in the same place as in the starting order
21:26:46 <hppavilion[1]> (e.g. if you want to have students grade each others' tests, but you obviously don't want anyone to grade their own because they can cheat)
21:28:56 <shachaf> > let subfact n = fromIntegral (round (product [1..n] / exp 1)) in map subfact [0..10]
21:28:58 <lambdabot> [0,0,1,2,9,44,265,1854,14833,133496,1334961]
21:29:18 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: That isn't right
21:29:21 <shachaf> > let subfact 0 = 1; subfact n = fromIntegral (round (product [1..n] / exp 1)) in map subfact [0..10]
21:29:24 <lambdabot> [1,0,1,2,9,44,265,1854,14833,133496,1334961]
21:29:42 <hppavilion[1]> There you go
21:29:52 <shachaf> @let fact n = product [1..n]; subfact 0 = 1; subfact n = fromIntegral (round (product [1..n] / exp 1)) in map subfact [0..10]
21:29:52 <lambdabot> Parse failed: Parse error: in
21:29:57 <shachaf> Bah.
21:29:59 <shachaf> @let fact n = product [1..n]; subfact 0 = 1; subfact n = fromIntegral (round (product [1..n] / exp 1))
21:30:04 <lambdabot> Defined.
21:30:14 <shachaf> > sum [1/fact n | n <- [0..100]]
21:30:18 <lambdabot> 2.7182818284590455
21:30:22 <shachaf> > sum [1/subfact n | n <- [0..100]]
21:30:24 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Since e is equal to the sum of 1/fact(n) for n = 0 -> inf, u ("deranged euler constant") is the same but with subfactorial
21:30:24 <lambdabot> Infinity
21:30:31 <shachaf> > sum [1/subfact n | n <- [0..10]]
21:30:33 <lambdabot> Infinity
21:30:36 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Remmber that subfact 1 = 0
21:30:47 <hppavilion[1]> 1/1? = infinity (or undefined)
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21:36:41 <shachaf> Right.
21:36:58 <shachaf> > sum [1/subfact n | n <- [0..20], n /= 1]
21:37:07 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
21:37:07 <lambdabot> mueval: ExitFailure 1
21:37:19 <shachaf> I don't even know.
21:37:34 <shachaf> The problem is that I've started using my /query lambdabot window to keep a todo list.
21:37:41 <shachaf> So now I don't /msg lambdabot anymore.
21:43:04 <fizzie> Huh, where's HackEgo.
21:43:15 <fizzie> Trying to hide.
21:43:34 <shachaf> HideEgo
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22:01:38 <shachaf> `snackego
22:01:40 <HackEgo> ​:)
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22:21:09 <fizzie> A while ago, there was someone using the emoticon :) which always used to freak me out. (If you filter out formatting codes, that may not make sense.)
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22:22:43 <shachaf> :)
22:22:45 <shachaf> :)
22:22:49 <shachaf> :)
22:22:50 <shachaf> hm
22:23:04 <shachaf> It's too subtle in this terminal.
22:23:28 <shachaf> :-)
22:23:32 <shachaf> :-)
22:23:41 <shachaf> :—)
22:23:44 <shachaf> :)
22:23:48 <shachaf> OK, that's too spammy.
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23:04:16 <izalove> turns out my hash table uses about 30x as much space as std::unordered_map
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