←2016-09-13 2016-09-14 2016-09-15→ ↑2016 ↑all
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01:03:16 <hppavilion[1]> ...why does the Vatican even HAVE an age of consent?
01:03:44 <hppavilion[1]> Shouldn't it be, like, "age of the oldest living person, plus 1 day"?
01:04:04 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: not all people living in the vatican are ordained priests hth
01:04:24 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I think they are
01:04:29 <hppavilion[1]> As in, people who can LIVE there
01:04:37 <oerjan> hm
01:06:12 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: nope. "Women obtain Vatican City citizenship by marriage (as a baptized Catholic) to their husbands; however such citizenship "lasts only for the duration of their stay" in Vatican City."
01:06:26 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Wait, what?
01:06:51 <hppavilion[1]> Why have actual citizenship that you lose when you leave the country when you can just have traditional visas?
01:06:51 <quintopia> helloerjan
01:06:56 <oerjan> According to the Herald Sun in March 2011, there were "only 32 female citizens" residing in the "smallest state in the world".
01:07:05 <oerjan> *+""
01:07:08 <oerjan> hellopia
01:07:16 <quintopia> i realized something
01:07:31 <quintopia> p-adic numbers are more limited than what i was thinking for 10's complement
01:08:09 <quintopia> is it a field if i take a: Z->Z/10Z and represent real numbers as sum from -infty to infty of a(i)*10^i
01:08:19 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: people who lose vatican citizenship automatically gain italian by default (and treaty)
01:08:20 <hppavilion[1]> To define what a "Country" is, your criteria has to include Vatican City: The Least Country-Like Country That's Still A Country and EXCLUDE the anti-Vatican City, Hong Kong: The Most Country-Like Country That Isn't A Country
01:08:30 <quintopia> is that a field
01:08:30 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Interesting...
01:08:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49721&oldid=49717 * Kenrube * (-7)
01:08:46 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: There was a nice field near my old house
01:09:21 <oerjan> quintopia: the only p-adic fields are the ones from p a prime hth
01:09:39 <oerjan> otherwise, you can easily find a zero divisor
01:09:50 <hppavilion[1]> "in some countries in order to be legally defined as a new sex people must first undergo sterilization."
01:09:57 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently that's controversial
01:11:02 <oerjan> quintopia: also, p-adic numbers are not reals hth
01:11:10 <hppavilion[1]> (Doesn't being transgender defeat the possibility of having children? Like, even if you're a trans man (female anatomy) who is ALSO gay, you probably aren't going to be planning on having children the usual way)
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01:12:40 <oerjan> quintopia: the problem with defining multiplication when the number is infinite both ways is that the sum for each resulting digit also gets infinite.
01:13:12 <oerjan> when it's only finite leftwards, each digit only gets a finite sum of possibilities.
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01:14:03 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: have you considered asking these questions in a forum where people are actually interested in discussing them twh
01:14:40 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Nope
01:14:52 <oerjan> shocking
01:18:35 <oerjan> quintopia: in particular, for any a,b where a is a 2-adic integer and b is a 5-adic integer, there is a unique 10-adic integer that is equal to a (mod 2^n) and equal to b (mod 5^n) for all n (using the chinese remainder theorem and taking limits)
01:20:10 <oerjan> and if you choose a1=0, b1/=0, a2/=0, b2=0, then the corresponding c1 and c2 become non-zero 10-adics with zero product.
01:20:29 <shachaf> oerjan: i thought the p in p-adic stood for "pooch" tdnh
01:20:31 <oerjan> (maybe i'm not telling you anything you don't know here)
01:21:13 <oerjan> . o O ( shachaf does not get to overuse the word "pooch" any longer )
01:21:58 <shachaf> oerjan: i think many people who are interested in discussing those questions would be too irritated by the phrasing and implications of the way they're put to answer anyway hth
01:22:00 <hppavilion[1]> "Race is a social ruler-and-compass construction"
01:23:28 <shachaf> you should get a twitter account and post your jokes there instead of here.
01:24:17 <oerjan> shachaf: that is possible.
01:27:06 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I did. It got locked because I looked like a bot.
01:27:19 <shachaf> aha
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01:28:50 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: ?
01:29:58 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Being trans is orthogonal to getting medical treatment for being trans. *Additionally*, what those countries require includes destruction of any frozen sperm or eggs.
01:30:22 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, yes, that's overdoing it
01:30:44 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Yes, but my point is that if you ARE trans, you probably aren't going to go using the equipment for cisgendery things
01:30:59 <hppavilion[1]> If you're a trans-man, you probably aren't going to go around using your uterus
01:31:03 <pikhq> Likely, but why should the state mandate it?
01:31:10 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: I was getting there
01:31:11 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, requiring that is stupid
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01:31:21 <izabera> my server died
01:31:40 <izabera> actually no because apache is alive
01:31:52 <hppavilion[1]> It probably makes clerical stuff easier (so you don't have to note that the mother is a man), but if your clerications are set up so you can't do that via compartmentalization, you're doing it wrong.
01:32:12 <izabera> but irc died, ssh is dead, cloudatcost's control panel is dead
01:32:57 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Additionally, it is *shockingly* difficult to get medical treatment for being trans in many different cases. And sterilization can be part of those medical treatments...
01:34:18 <pikhq> And again, we are talking about legally enforcing a potentially-unnecessary medical treatment just to have your gender identity recognized.
01:34:22 <pikhq> Which is pretty shitty.
01:36:54 <izabera> don't say just..
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01:42:09 <oerjan> IT'S ALIVE
01:44:34 <izabera> i did nothing...
01:44:38 <izabera> still can't access it
01:45:03 <oerjan> we'll be fine as long as it doesn't start shouting BRAINS
01:46:19 <izalove> BRAINS
01:46:21 <izalove> BRAAAAINS
01:46:29 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAA
01:46:39 <_46bit> hppavilion[1]: I'd like to point out that when you say "Yes, but my point is that if you ARE trans, you probably aren't going to go using the equipment for cisgendery things" in reference to reproduction, it feels like you're forgetting non-straight relationships altogether
01:47:11 <_46bit> and that's all I'll say about that. it's too late and this is a wrong venue for this conversation.
01:48:00 <hppavilion[1]> _46bit: No, I covered that earlier; it's just that even if you're a trans man AND gay, you probably aren't going to want to carry a baby because that's pretty much 100% womanly
01:48:00 <_46bit> there was a time I created a Linux container with lxc and the hosts /dev devices all vanished
01:49:09 <hppavilion[1]> If people can be trans-gender, can I be trans-race?
01:49:27 <hppavilion[1]> I'm sure I could get the SJWs to support it, but only if I wasn't white as-is
01:49:51 <hppavilion[1]> ("I /identify/ as Pakistani")
01:49:51 <_46bit> figures you had that agenda
01:50:01 <hppavilion[1]> _46bit: That just occurred to me now
01:50:09 <hppavilion[1]> It wasn't part of my agenda
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01:51:12 <hppavilion[1]> (Hm, if trans people need to legally change their gender, I think that's already a sign of your society doing something wrong- the law incorporates gender into it. Unless it's just changing whether they say "Mr." or "Ms." on notices)
01:51:16 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: You'd think that, but there are trans men who have actually gone off hormones in order to carry a baby.
01:51:28 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Huh, that's interesting
01:51:32 <hppavilion[1]> And a tiny bit bizarre
01:51:36 <pikhq> People are complicated.
01:51:40 <hppavilion[1]> (More so than transgenderism in general, that is)
01:51:48 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Oh, really? This changes everything!
01:51:54 <pikhq> :)
01:51:56 <hppavilion[1]> What's the computational complexity of people?
01:52:02 <hppavilion[1]> O(???)
01:53:04 <oerjan> O(nermous)
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01:55:48 <Slereah> O(1)
01:57:19 <hppavilion[1]> O(1/0)
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02:01:48 <Slereah> The worst complexity I've ever seen was Worst Sort
02:01:59 <Slereah> Which is O(n!!!!!...)
02:02:08 <Slereah> The number of factorials depend on the exact implementation
02:03:31 <_46bit> :D
02:04:14 <_46bit> I got a couple of factorials in something the other week, then wondered why n=154000 took so long
02:12:54 <zzo38> Unless your name actually is "Mr." or "Ms." then they should omit that
02:13:23 <oerjan> Slereah: bah factorials are insignificant compared to the power of ackermann.
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02:14:14 <oerjan> zzo38: now i'm wondering if there are any languages where any of those are names.
02:14:31 <oerjan> well, probably without the period, anyway.
02:16:52 <oerjan> apparently Mr. is the artist name of a japanese guy
02:19:22 <quintopia> oerjan: i was onbviously not talking about p-adics
02:19:38 <quintopia> i dont know why you said so much about them
02:19:52 <oerjan> quintopia: because you didn't have the dignity to stop me hth
02:20:07 <quintopia> i wasnt able to. i was at work
02:20:20 <oerjan> anyway, i think the infinite sum for one digit thing i mentioned is what makes it break down to have it twosided.
02:20:36 <quintopia> but abt the infinite sum thing: why is it a problem as long as the sums converge?
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02:21:20 <oerjan> how do make them converge? especially in the reals.
02:21:51 <oerjan> *do you
02:22:13 <oerjan> for general Z -> Z/10Z, there's no reason to expect them to.
02:22:21 <quintopia> why wouldnt they converge? as long as we assume that all finite numbers have an infinite string of 0s or 9s on the left...
02:23:29 <oerjan> ok but then you're basically just using a strange way of writing ordinary decimal.
02:24:05 <oerjan> which gives a field (the reals), but not a unique representation.
02:24:18 <oerjan> (strange for negatives, that is.)
02:25:43 <FreeFull> The infinite product 2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2*... converges in the 2-adics
02:26:08 <oerjan> to 0, even.
02:26:52 <hppavilion[1]> "§ (lower case: ſ) is the 19.5þ letter of ðe Eŋgliʃ alphabet"
02:28:54 <quintopia> oerjan: yes a strange representation for ordinary decimal is exactly what i meant when the other day i said "10's complement"
02:29:09 <quintopia> one where addition works for subtraction
02:29:52 <quintopia> the fun bit is that ...999.999... is negative zero
02:29:59 <oerjan> OUCH
02:30:33 <oerjan> food ->
02:30:48 <quintopia> (okay technically it's just an alternative representation for zero, but it's more fun to call it negative zero)
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02:31:32 <FireFly> I should probably learn about p-adics
02:31:46 <FreeFull> quintopia: It's -1 + 1
02:31:56 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: I prefer the vc-adics
02:32:00 <FreeFull> I don't think there is a distinct negative zero
02:33:00 <quintopia> what about the drug-adics
02:34:08 <FreeFull> I like how the ackermann function grows faster than any primitive-recursive function
02:34:28 <FreeFull> And any stack of factorials is primitive-recursive
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02:53:41 <quintopia> did you know that 4^(4^4)cm is wider than the observable universe?
02:55:06 <quintopia> x^(x^x) goes 0, 1, 16, 7.6*10^12, wider than the observable universe
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03:16:30 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: 0^0 != 0 unless explicitly stated to be
03:17:04 <hppavilion[1]> Also, that's 3^(3^3) presumably
03:19:58 <shachaf> quintopia: pft, TREE() grows much faster
03:30:41 <oerjan> > 3^(3^3)
03:30:44 <lambdabot> 7625597484987
03:31:44 <shachaf> > length "625597484987"
03:31:46 <lambdabot> 12
03:31:48 <shachaf> confirmed
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04:17:10 <FreeFull> > exp 3
04:17:16 <lambdabot> 20.085536923187668
04:17:55 <FreeFull> > 4*(log (4^4)) / log 10
04:18:00 <lambdabot> 9.632959861247397
04:18:21 <FreeFull> 4^(4^4) is a 9 digit number then?
04:18:25 <FreeFull> Or rather 10 digit
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04:22:38 <FreeFull> > 4^(4^4)
04:22:45 <lambdabot> 1340780792994259709957402499820584612747936582059239337772356144372176403007...
04:22:48 <FreeFull> Oh, no
04:22:55 <FreeFull> My calculation was clearly wrong =P
04:23:08 <FreeFull> > log(4^(4^4)) / log 10
04:23:15 <lambdabot> 154.12735777995834
04:23:19 <shachaf> spam
04:23:24 <FreeFull> Sorry
04:32:06 <\oren\> rebooted my computer now my blutoth mouse is working
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04:33:44 <\oren\> why is blutoth such an unreliable thing
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04:45:36 <hppavilion[1]> I'm a tad unclear on the exact rules of ±
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04:46:36 <hppavilion[1]> ±1 is {-1, 1}
04:46:58 <hppavilion[1]> and 5±2 is {3, 7}
04:47:08 <hppavilion[1]> But then things start to break down
04:47:32 <hppavilion[1]> Is (1±i)^2 {2i, -2i} or {2i, -2i, 1-i}?
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04:48:58 <hppavilion[1]> s/1-i/2/
04:49:12 <hppavilion[1]> (2i = (i+1)^2, -2i = (i-1)^2, 2 = (1+i)(1-i))
04:52:53 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the former.
04:53:22 <hppavilion[1]> But if you just make it normal numbers, (2±3)^2 feels like it should be 5^2 = 25 or (-1)^2 = 1, but if you try it the fun way you get those two AND 13
04:53:24 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh
04:53:49 <oerjan> you don't get to expand ^2 like a macro when the content is multivalued.
04:53:53 <hppavilion[1]> Why? Is there a fixed reason, or is it just because everything is nicer?
04:54:04 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, right
04:54:51 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: So you have to solve&separate the inside first, THEN macronize it on each separate result?
04:54:59 <shachaf> > let a +- b = [a+b,a-b] in (^2) <$> (x +- y)
04:55:04 <lambdabot> [(x + y) * (x + y),(x - y) * (x - y)]
04:55:13 <oerjan> yeah
04:55:24 <shachaf> > let a +- b = [a+b,a-b] in (*) <$> (x +- y) <*> (x +- y)
04:55:30 <lambdabot> [(x + y) * (x + y),(x + y) * (x - y),(x - y) * (x + y),(x - y) * (x - y)]
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04:58:59 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Argument of the day: If there's more than one ± (e.g. a±b±c) do you have to treat them all the same (so a+b+c OR a-b-c), or can they mix (So a+b+c, a+b-c, a-b+c, OR a-b-c)
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05:02:35 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: mixing is allowed.
05:02:47 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: OK
05:03:11 <shachaf> oerjan: what about the thing where you use +- in one place and -+ in the other place
05:03:16 <hppavilion[1]> So then WTF is ∓‽
05:03:19 <oerjan> oh right
05:03:22 <shachaf> to indicate that the same choice is used respectively in both
05:03:27 <hppavilion[1]> s/WTF/WÐF/
05:03:32 <oerjan> shachaf: yeah hm
05:03:44 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: ok there's exceptions, darn
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05:04:03 <hppavilion[1]> >:)
05:04:10 <oerjan> `unidecode ∓
05:04:11 <HackEgo> ​[U+2213 MINUS-OR-PLUS SIGN]
05:04:54 <oerjan> i think we're heading into "if you do this you get to explain your notation" territory.
05:05:13 <shachaf> agreerjan
05:06:28 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, yes
05:06:37 <hppavilion[1]> agreerjan^2
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05:09:01 * oerjan suddenly envisions putting indices on the signs
05:09:32 <shachaf> oerjan: now write a monad for it hth
05:11:12 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: There's also ⋇ btw
05:11:15 <oerjan> no, i don't think so.
05:11:18 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Huh, that actually works
05:11:28 <oerjan> `unidecode ⋇
05:11:30 <HackEgo> ​[U+22C7 DIVISION TIMES]
05:11:46 <oerjan> fiendish
05:12:05 <shachaf> ж
05:12:31 <hppavilion[1]> write a subscript after a ± or ∓ to link it to all others with that sign; all ±s with the same index are + and - at the same time, all ∓s with the same index are + and - at the same time and never the same as ±s with the same index
05:12:40 <hppavilion[1]> `unidecode ж
05:12:43 <HackEgo> ​[U+0436 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER ZHE]
05:13:04 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: but of course. although at this point multiplying by {-1,1} valued variables s_i is probably more standard.
05:13:42 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Well yeah, but that's no fun
05:14:00 <shachaf> oerjan: Is there an operator set, like Sigma and Pi?
05:14:09 <shachaf> Which would give you the set of a bunch of things.
05:14:15 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh, and what if we need "only 2 out of these 3 can be + at once; the other has to be -, but it doesn't matter which 2 are +"
05:14:32 <shachaf> I guess that's just an alternative way to write set comprehensions.
05:14:36 <hppavilion[1]> >:D
05:14:42 <hppavilion[1]> ℝ is the set of real numbers
05:14:55 <oerjan> shachaf: just use a big union sign and braces.
05:14:59 <hppavilion[1]> ℝ^k is a k-dimensional space, because a set S to a power k means a k-tuple of items from S
05:15:26 <hppavilion[1]> (presumably, all sets work like this, where multiplication of sets is just a tuple of the values- nothing more than Cartesian product)
05:15:39 <shachaf> oerjan: i,i {}_{(i,j) \in {1,2,3} x {5,6,7}} { i+j }
05:15:52 <hppavilion[1]> k is, generally, a natural number
05:16:50 <hppavilion[1]> But are there definitions for k < 0 &| k ∉ ℕ?
05:17:02 <oerjan> `unidecode ℝ
05:17:03 <HackEgo> ​[U+211D DOUBLE-STRUCK CAPITAL R]
05:17:20 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Your font is terrible hth
05:18:04 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Wait, wðf does ðat notaʃon mean‽
05:18:25 <shachaf> Please stop being annoying.
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05:18:34 <hppavilion[1]> wait, what?
05:18:41 <hppavilion[1]> Did I do something?
05:18:49 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it's putty, it doesn't support using more than one font.
05:18:55 <hppavilion[1]> Oh?
05:19:26 <hppavilion[1]> @tell shachaf I'm sorry, though I'm not exactly sure what in particular I did. :(
05:19:30 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
05:19:49 <oerjan> i can paste it into my browser and it shows fine.
05:20:43 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: shachaf's irc client has even bigger problems with unicode than mine hth
05:20:49 <hppavilion[1]> Oh
05:21:18 <oerjan> also, i don't know generalization for k < 0.
05:21:27 <hppavilion[1]> So is ℝ^k defined for anything other than k ∈ ℕ
05:21:28 <hppavilion[1]> OK
05:21:40 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Anything for k ∉ ℕ?
05:22:01 <oerjan> i recommend not using those fancy chars as i've already pointed out i cannot read them easily.
05:22:42 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, right
05:22:51 <hppavilion[1]> Anything for k \nin |N?
05:22:54 <oerjan> but assuming you're asking about complexes, that seems as hard as negatives.
05:23:44 <oerjan> you can do infinite cardinals, obviously :)
05:24:12 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: No, I mean like 2.5. Is there any generalization that /somehow/ supports something that looks like a 2.5-tuple?
05:24:58 <oerjan> not that i know of. now if you were just asking about any set with that dimension, i'd point you to fractals.
05:25:03 <hppavilion[1]> (Preserving the generic properties that doing types like this has; (S^n, S^m) is pretty much equivalent to S^(n+m)
05:25:07 <hppavilion[1]> )
05:25:37 <hppavilion[1]> I have a feeling no, but you never know
05:27:54 <oerjan> me too
05:28:50 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: well, if you had a S = R^2.5, then the tuple (x,y) where x and y are in S would be a member of R^5
05:29:03 <hppavilion[1]> Yes, they would, wouldn't they?
05:29:13 <oerjan> it's a little bit like those fractional bits in TURKEY BOMB, i suspect - they don't really exist individually.
05:30:11 <oerjan> (and trits)
05:30:46 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, I suppose R^(-1) (aka "anti-R" and typically written Я (the Cyrillic backwards-R, of course)) would basically be a quotient type of the Unit Type and the Reals (Quo[Unit,Real])
05:31:08 <hppavilion[1]> But I still don't really know WTF a quotient type is
05:31:17 <oerjan> quotient types of singleton sets tend to still be singleton sets hth
05:31:28 <oerjan> *quotients of
05:32:44 <\oren\> so you need a set R^0.5 such that to specify a member of R, two members can be used.
05:32:45 <oerjan> now i'm reminded about those people who said they could define a reversible computation system where the types were a field. but they never explained how they avoided the obvious contradictions, so they probably didn't.
05:33:57 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh? Including where we're assuming the singleton is the (pardon my arithmetic) numerator?
05:34:11 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Yeah, basically
05:34:27 <hppavilion[1]> (R^0.5, R^0.5) has to pretty much directly correspond with R
05:34:55 <hppavilion[1]> (I suppose I could make it... no, that won't work)
05:35:09 <oerjan> well there were units, i think 1 may have been just the computation that makes input and output equal
05:35:25 <hppavilion[1]> Q can be represented by (Z, W) ips
05:37:32 <hppavilion[1]> (I suppose (R^(-1), R) would have to be the unit type, and that doesn't seem right- if all else fails, you just always use the same value in the first place every time and the second place can be any real number, so the limit being 1 possibility seems impossible)
05:37:42 <oerjan> now come to think of it there may be an obvious way to cheat based on R being the same cardinality as R^2. it probably won't give something very nice.
05:38:15 <hppavilion[1]> Yeah, true
05:38:24 <oerjan> and it'll still break for getting R^0 = R^a x R^(-a)
05:38:26 <hppavilion[1]> Quotient type of R and R^2 or somesuch?
05:38:39 <hppavilion[1]> Yep
05:39:05 <hppavilion[1]> R^0 has to be the unit type (or empty tuple, or whatever. Are those all the same in whatever type theory we're using?)
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05:40:35 <hppavilion[1]> Sgello
05:40:48 <oerjan> i dunno, i don't know all type theories.
05:40:55 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo_: I'm trying to figure out if -1-space is a reasonable thing
05:41:59 <oerjan> for some kinds of dimension measures, there is _one_ reasonable -1-space, the empty set.
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05:44:05 <oerjan> (e.g. the measures where you define the dimension to be n if a space can be split up with subspaces of dimension n-1)
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06:01:33 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I suppose negative time dimensions would be measured in hertz?
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06:04:50 <oerjan> well the idea certainly does.
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07:24:09 <hppavilion[1]> % is a stupid symbol
07:24:35 <hppavilion[1]> It basically indicates "Hey, the previous number is a proportion of a whole, not a count. Oh, and we multiplied it by 100 for no apparent reason at all"
07:25:43 <wob_jonas> no no, that symbol indicates the following number is a job number, not a pid, and also, if this appears as the command, then there's an implicit fg command before it
07:27:29 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: I'm trying to remember if there's a way to express logarithms using exponentiation and division alone
07:27:41 <FreeFull> % is obviously the division remainder operator
07:27:45 <hppavilion[1]> I seemed to remember it being (1/b)**x, but then I realized that's stupid
07:27:49 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Yes, it's that too.
07:28:30 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: And log*_b(x) is the iterated logarithm remainder operator
07:29:56 <hppavilion[1]> (an easy way similar to how roots are x**(1/k))
07:30:23 <Cale> hppavilion[1]: Let's just regard % to mean "divided by 100". The population of the US is 318.9%%%
07:30:57 <Cale> er, that was wrong
07:30:59 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: Isn't it usually multiplied?
07:31:17 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: Use antipercent (a mirrored percent sign) for that
07:31:19 <Cale> The population of the US %%% is 318.9
07:31:21 <Cale> yeah
07:31:27 <hppavilion[1]> (or just put a percent at the beginning)
07:31:32 <Cale> yeah
07:31:48 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: Do you know of an easy way to logarithmicate?
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07:32:55 <hppavilion[1]> I also created the constant u (the Deranged Euler Constant) today
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07:33:06 <Cale> Well, log_b x = log_a x / log_a b
07:33:28 <Cale> So if you know the right constant to multiply by, you can do it roughly by counting digits
07:34:08 <hppavilion[1]> Yes, I've got that
07:34:22 <hppavilion[1]> The problem is I want to do it simply
07:34:26 <hppavilion[1]> (I might just import log)
07:34:51 <Cale> Oh, simply in terms of what?
07:35:30 <\oren\> no % is the modulo operator, duh
07:36:04 <\oren\> i wish c++ had made % and ^ work the right way with floats
07:36:32 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Yeah, Cale said that
07:36:34 <hppavilion[1]> (roughly)
07:36:53 <Cale> I didn't say that :)
07:37:32 <Cale> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logarithm#Arithmetic.E2.80.93geometric_mean_approximation -- this method might be good
07:37:39 <Cale> If you're implementing an algorithm
07:38:23 <hppavilion[1]> Yeah, I just gave up and imported it
07:38:36 <hppavilion[1]> I was hoping to avoid it as a dependency, but oh well
07:39:06 <hppavilion[1]> ln(x) = log_e(x), lb(x) = log_2(x), lg(x) = log_10(x), ld(x) = log_u(x)
07:43:16 <myname> huh?
07:43:24 <myname> i know ld as log_2
07:43:29 <myname> what is u?
07:44:10 <hppavilion[1]> myname: ISO recommends lb for log_2
07:44:22 <myname> meaning what
07:44:24 <hppavilion[1]> (not sure where that 'd' came from anyway...)
07:44:32 <hppavilion[1]> But u is the Deranged Euler Constant
07:44:32 <myname> dualis
07:44:40 <hppavilion[1]> Oh
07:45:04 <hppavilion[1]> e is defined as (or at least can be calculated with) the sum of the reciprocals of all factorials from 0 to infinity
07:45:30 <myname> what does the b in lb stands for?
07:45:31 <hppavilion[1]> u is the same, but with subfactorials instead (and we just ignore subfact(1) because that causes divide-by-zeroes)
07:45:35 <hppavilion[1]> myname: 'binary'
07:45:53 <myname> that's horrible
07:46:04 <Cale> @let agm x y = head [u | (u,v) <- iterate (\(u,v) -> ((u+v)/2, sqrt (u*v))) (x,y), abs (v - u) < 1e-10]
07:46:08 <lambdabot> Defined.
07:46:21 <hppavilion[1]> myname: It's the only name Wikipedia even knows
07:46:27 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_logarithm
07:49:22 <myname> the german entry has lb also listed as ld for logarithmus dualis
07:49:33 <Cale> > pi / (2 * agm 1 (2^^(2-16) / exp 1)) - 16 * log 2
07:49:36 <lambdabot> 1.0000000011791865
07:50:04 <hppavilion[1]> myname: ISO 80000 recommends base 2 is lb and base 10 is lg. If we're going to have an ld other than the Deranged Logarithm, ld should be base 10 and lg base 2
07:50:44 <Cale> I find it kind of weird that log bases are even a thing.
07:51:10 <wob_jonas> Cale: they aren't. base e, base 2, and base 10 are the only useful ones.
07:51:10 <myname> how so
07:51:17 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: Why?
07:51:19 <Cale> We usually don't bother giving special names or indices to scalar multiples of a function.
07:51:29 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: sqrt(2)
07:51:56 <myname> ah, so it's weird for the bases to have special names, not the existence of the bases as such
07:52:10 <Cale> Well, even the bases are pretty weird
07:52:13 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: I don't think base 10 is even very useful outside of the fact that we all count that way
07:52:23 <myname> not really
07:52:26 <hppavilion[1]> (When not in computers, you can just drop the index entirely for roots for square roots)
07:52:31 <wob_jonas> hpp: it's useful for calculating in my hand because the numbers are in base 10
07:52:31 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: How?
07:52:35 <myname> we do have the same for roots
07:52:36 <Cale> Like, whenever you would have written log_10 x, you could have just done away with the concept of log bases altogether and written log x / log 10
07:52:41 <Cale> which is really not so much worse
07:52:49 <wob_jonas> I know base 10 logarithms, not base e ones
07:52:49 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: I forget, how does one do log 10 in one's head?
07:53:13 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: It's cleaner and less confusing
07:53:19 <myname> Cale: it does make the concept less understanding imho
07:53:35 <hppavilion[1]> While equivalent, it's confusing
07:53:47 <myname> yeah
07:53:55 <hppavilion[1]> Because defining log_b x as k s.t. b^k = x is understandable
07:54:01 <wob_jonas> hpp: you learn the exponential sequence 1, 1.25, 1.6, 2, 2.5, 3.15, 4, 5, 6.3, 7.9, 10 to compute approximate base 10 logarithms and exponentials, and you use them to compute approximate multiples of large numbers when you want to do approximate calculations
07:54:04 <wob_jonas> I do it all the time
07:54:05 <myname> try explaining kids why you divide by the stuff you have as your basis
07:54:14 <hppavilion[1]> Defining it as however the hell base change works is impossible to understand
07:54:29 <Cale> hppavilion[1]: That works if you can define b^k appropriately, but how do you want to do that? :)
07:54:56 <Cale> Usually we define b^k as exp(k log b)
07:55:06 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: Tell them how exponents work, then tell them how it works if they're negative, then explain square roots, then general roots, then rational powers
07:55:18 <hppavilion[1]> s/how exponents/how natural exponents/
07:55:26 <Cale> So what does 2^sqrt(2) mean?
07:55:58 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: If you want a meaningful representation, you just round it off as with all other irrational numbers
07:56:03 <wob_jonas> it's very useful when I only want approximate magnitudes
07:56:06 <hppavilion[1]> Round it off and pretend it's a rational
07:56:32 <wob_jonas> obviously if I want a more precise calculation, I use a computer
07:57:18 <Cale> Well, how do we know that rounding it off is okay at all?
07:57:37 <hppavilion[1]> The same way you find the circumference of a circle given its diameter; you don't find an infinite series that yields the answer when completed, you just say pi is 3.14159, multiply by that, and say "close enough" with a little footnote
07:57:50 <Cale> If we don't know how x^y is defined for irrational y in the first place, we can't justify any means of approximating it
07:59:50 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: We hold off the actual proper definition for irrational y until they've taken some calculus
08:00:20 <Cale> Oh, I highly recommend not talking about logarithms at all until one has had some calculus.
08:01:02 <Cale> Of course, the highschools don't do that because they're big fans of confusing people and making them think they're "bad at math" by introducing things with circular definitions :)
08:01:31 <Cale> and leaving out all the content of mathematics, which is the proofs
08:01:43 <wob_jonas> hpp: no, we don't. we give one of the two definitions for exponentiating reals _before_ calculus,
08:02:00 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: That works too
08:02:01 <Cale> You need some sort of limit
08:02:14 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: I'm not even in Calculus yet and I get logarithms fairly well. I couldn't tell you the exact rule for irrational powers, but otherwise I get it.
08:02:23 <Cale> If you really want to scrape by, you can use the least upper bound property directly.
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08:02:39 <wob_jonas> the definition where you extend exponentiation from rational exponents to real exponents such that it's monotonous in the exponent
08:03:16 <Cale> wob_jonas: How do you know that extension is unique?
08:03:39 <wob_jonas> and even without calculus, it's possible to prove that on rational exponents it's monotonous, so an extension exists, and with a bit more work, it's even possible to prove that the extension is unique
08:04:05 <wob_jonas> Cale: without calculus, you do stuff with inequations to effectively prove that it's continuous on rationals
08:04:21 <wob_jonas> and prove that way that the extension at any point is unique
08:04:46 <wob_jonas> or you just take it at faith at that point and prove it later after you've done some basic calculus, which is still not circular
08:04:47 <Cale> I've never seen a highschool introduce enough concepts to actually make the thing work.
08:05:09 <Cale> Well, some presentations aren't circular, but just leave out details, those are the better ones
08:05:12 <wob_jonas> Cale: I could recommend a good textbook, but all the good books at highschool level I know are in Hungarian
08:05:32 <Cale> I'm sure in some parts of the world, they do a better job than in the US and Canada
08:05:37 <wob_jonas> how much mathematics do you read in Hungarian?
08:05:40 <Cale> none
08:05:49 <wob_jonas> then I won't recommend textbooks
08:06:37 <pikhq> Unfortunately, schools in the US *seem* to like introducing logarithms quite quickly. I think this is for historical reasons, though.
08:06:41 <Cale> The best way to do it, imo, is just to wait until you have the integral
08:06:49 <Cale> and/or power series
08:06:54 <Cale> one or the other will do well enough
08:07:04 <pikhq> Logarithms used to be a practical requirement for a lot of calculation, after all.
08:07:24 <Cale> Yeah, it's sort of a silly hold-over from the times when people actually used log tables
08:07:47 <wob_jonas> Note that you also need to know that exponentiation is continuous to be able to define logarithms
08:07:49 <Cale> and so you'd need some sort of hazy idea of what they were about in order to use them to multiply numbers faster
08:08:05 <wob_jonas> so it's definitely needed, but it's still possible to just leave the proof for later in a high school
08:08:16 <Cale> wob_jonas: You need to know that the integral of a continuous function is continuous :)
08:08:29 <Cale> and the integral of a positive function is monotone
08:08:29 <pikhq> Even if you didn't really get them, it was worth at least having the directly relevant properties shoved in your head.
08:08:35 <wob_jonas> Cale: no, the power series is the other definition, and you need to know both in any case, and prove them equivalent
08:08:47 <Cale> Well, depends on how you go about things
08:08:52 <wob_jonas> Cale: what integral?
08:09:01 <Cale> integral from 1 to x of 1/t dt
08:09:19 <Cale> You can take that as the definition of log x
08:09:27 <wob_jonas> um... yes, but I don't think that really helps you
08:09:27 <Cale> and work everything out from there
08:09:53 <Cale> You need a bunch of properties about integrals which get proven using the least upper bound property of the reals
08:09:58 <wob_jonas> well, I don't really sure what all the possible ways are and which work and which don't, I just know one way I think it should be done, but whatever
08:10:44 <Cale> i.e. that any nonempty set of real numbers which is bounded above has a least upper bound (or supremum)
08:11:56 <Cale> You can use that directly to define the logarithm, but you end up doing a lot of low level work to prove the rest of its properties then
08:12:25 <Cale> It's better to put that low level work toward proving some general facts about integrals, and then just use those
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08:26:39 <hppavilion[1]> Trump said that, because Hillary insulted millions of decent Americans, she should either apologize or drop out.
08:26:40 <hppavilion[1]> ...
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08:50:50 <hppavilion[1]> I kind of want to start using the ⸮ for sarcasm, but there's no inverted version for spanishization :(
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09:08:17 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, it looks like it's more common for rhetorical questinos
09:08:19 <hppavilion[1]> *questions
09:08:53 <oerjan> `unidecode ⸮
09:08:54 <HackEgo> ​[U+2E2E REVERSED QUESTION MARK]
09:13:45 <fizzie> They probably couldn't tell whether to call it the REVERSED INVERTED QUESTION MARK or the INVERTED REVERSED QUESTION MARK, and therefore omitted it completely.
09:14:32 <oerjan> maybe they just accidentally inverted its existence.
09:14:57 <fizzie> ≟ is useful, should replace all other uses of = with it. Because you can just never be sure.
09:14:59 <wob_jonas> fizzie: I don't think unicode omits any character just because they can't decide on a good name. they have tons of characters with bad official names.
09:15:16 <oerjan> `unidecode ≟
09:15:17 <HackEgo> ​[U+225F QUESTIONED EQUAL TO]
09:17:20 <fizzie> * ⁑ ⁂
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10:31:59 <hppavilion[1]> In order to have a machine in the style of The Time Machine (one which makes you experience time differently)
10:33:07 <hppavilion[1]> You would have to adjust your temporal speed (s/s). You'd likely have to adjust it continuously (rather than a clean jump), so you'd have to know how much your temporal speed can change in 1 second (presumably on your side)- how many s/s/s. This is, of course, s/s^2, or 1/s
10:33:20 <hppavilion[1]> Therefor, how good your time machine is is measured in Hertz
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10:53:09 <myname> "i am a floobicratican! we stand for more freedom unless it's not a freedom we like, in which case we refer to its restriction as patriotism"
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11:24:57 <wob_jonas> `bobadventureslist
11:24:58 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bobadventureslist: not found
11:24:59 <wob_jonas> `boblist
11:25:00 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: boblist: not found
11:25:07 <wob_jonas> whatever is it called?
11:25:11 <wob_jonas> ``` echo bin/*list
11:25:13 <HackEgo> bin/FireFlist bin/aglist bin/bardsworthlist bin/danddreclist bin/don'taskdon'ttelllist bin/dontaskdonttelllist bin/ehlist bin/emptylist bin/erflist bin/flist bin/idealist bin/ioccclist bin/keenlist bin/list bin/listlist bin/llist bin/makelist bin/makelistlist bin/minimalist bin/mlist bin/olist bin/pbflist bin/slist bin/smlist bin/stylist bin/testli
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11:25:21 <wob_jonas> no list for that yet?
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11:30:55 <wob_jonas> `? FireFlist
11:30:57 <HackEgo> FireFlist? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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17:08:09 <\oren\> Gah, is the middle of septemeber hiring season or something?
17:08:39 <\oren\> suddenly four firms have emailed me in 24 hours
17:11:37 <Taneb> \oren\, I think it's to get fresh graduates
17:17:45 <Phantom_Hoover> are you a recent graduate
17:17:51 <Phantom_Hoover> *taneb
17:18:02 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I've got a year left
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18:18:56 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( I've been wanting a letter for the Eŋgliʃ Reformed Alphabet that makes the english-equivalent 'ch' sound. I've been using 'ĉ/Ĉ' so far, but I just realized I could just use 'q/Q' )
18:22:44 <Taneb> @ping
18:22:44 <lambdabot> pong
18:50:46 <hppavilion[1]> (Many ſtores are named as a poſſeſſive- "Smith's". If a ſtore is named for a group ſharing a laſt name, it's "Smiths'". If you want to refer to more than one Smiths', you ſay "Smith's's" or ſomething weird like that.)
18:53:49 <nortti> hm, wasn't the convention to use 'ſs' for two consecutive ones?
18:54:49 <Taneb> nortti, I believe so, iirc that's where ß comes from
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19:24:09 <hppavilion[1]> nortti: Was it?
19:24:30 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: I thought ß was ſz and only allowed at the end of words
19:25:06 <myname> no
19:25:11 <myname> just not at the beginning
19:25:20 <myname> straße is pretty valid
19:25:36 <nortti> hppavilion[1]: I seem to remember some kind of rule about having two 'ſ's in a row, but checking wikipedia it doesn't speak of that
19:25:55 <myname> also, the convention was to put s on the start of a syllable and the other thing at the end
19:26:09 <hppavilion[1]> nortti: It has the word "ſucceſsful"
19:26:09 <myname> so it would've been stra|-se
19:26:43 <hppavilion[1]> (Haviŋ boþ 'ſ' and "ʃ" iſ kind of confuſiŋ, as ðey look ſimilar in many fonts)
19:27:08 <nortti> oh, great
19:27:24 <nortti> wikipedia page 'ſ' redirects to 's', not 'long s'
19:30:01 <nortti> hppavilion[1]: why use 'ſ', tho, you don't seem to be using it for any distinct phoneme?
19:30:37 <nortti> and your approach seems to be mostly to do away with legacy complications, why reintroduce one that has already fallen out of use?
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20:00:34 <hppavilion[1]> What would the office of Copresident of the United States of America (POTUS*) be?
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20:07:24 <alercah> I believe that Alexander Hamilton lost the dual to establish it
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20:10:07 <shachaf> @messages-lousy
20:10:07 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 14h 50m 41s ago: I'm sorry, though I'm not exactly sure what in particular I did. :(
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20:27:56 <\oren\> what if instead of just reforming english spelling, we just agreed to pronounce everything in a japanese accent and use katakana!
20:28:56 <\oren\> ヲウド
20:31:30 <\oren\> or skip the entire issue and write every word with a different character
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20:37:19 <Taneb> \oren\, you can't transliterate my name into Japanese characters
20:38:02 <Taneb> (hurrah for the voiceless dental fricative)
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20:39:26 <shachaf> Tanepu
20:41:12 <pikhq> アイ フォア ワン ライク ジッス アイディア。 イツ ソ シンプル!
20:42:01 <shachaf> Oh, there's a bu, never mind.
20:45:01 <Taneb> shachaf, it was "Nathan" I was referring to
20:45:39 <FireFly> half-width katakana, eh
20:45:43 <shachaf> Taneb: that's transliaterated from the hebrew which has no fricatives hth
20:46:00 <pikhq> The standard way of transcribing the voiceless dental fricative would be with "s".
20:46:31 <FireFly> So just nickname Taneb 'Na', and call him Na-san
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20:52:41 <pikhq> Taneb: So yeah. ネイサン is a perfectly fine transcription.
20:53:48 <shachaf> pikapooch
20:56:02 <pikhq> 私haveも書ten英語と漢字為嘘s&笑s.It's楽.
20:56:43 <shachaf> "I have ten pooches. It's great."
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20:58:14 <pikhq> No, that would be "私有十犬.It's大良." or some such.
20:58:32 <shachaf> Na-ten
20:58:59 <pikhq> I do not have ten pooches.
20:59:04 <pikhq> But I am soon moving somewhere with three!
20:59:09 <pikhq> It will be poochtastic.
21:02:26 <shachaf> There are three pooches in Colorado?!
21:02:42 <pikhq> There are three pooches at the place I'm moving to *in* Colorado.
21:02:50 <shachaf> Three pooches in Denver?
21:03:06 <pikhq> Three pooches in the house!
21:03:20 <pikhq> Well, except when they're outside.
21:03:36 <shachaf> Cats are too good.
21:03:40 <shachaf> They don't even need to go outside.
21:03:59 <pikhq> I'm used to cats that go outside often though.
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21:15:28 <hppavilion[1]> Are there any traditional, ſimple methods for graphing functions in 3-D?
21:15:37 <hppavilion[1]> Something I could implement myſelf?
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21:17:27 <izalove> is this ſ thing an attempt to be as annoying as possible?
21:17:36 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Yes hth
21:17:42 <hppavilion[1]> *hðh
21:17:51 <izalove> it's working fine
21:18:01 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Alſo, I rebound my 's' key to 'ſ' by default
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21:25:57 <Phantom_Hoover> that's not even correct
21:26:07 <Phantom_Hoover> say 'pessimistic'
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21:46:17 <hppavilion[1]> `hi
21:46:26 <HackEgo> Hi veratin. Heratin.
21:46:38 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, there's a default. OK.
21:47:02 <fizzie> There's a random default.
21:47:03 <fizzie> `hi
21:47:05 <HackEgo> Hi laste. Haste.
21:47:16 <fizzie> It comes from 'words'.
21:47:28 <fizzie> It's p. silly.
21:48:13 <wob_jonas> `hello
21:48:14 <HackEgo> hello, world
21:48:23 <wob_jonas> oh right, I defined that one
21:48:25 <wob_jonas> `hello c
21:48:26 <HackEgo> Hello world
21:48:33 <wob_jonas> it takes a hexadecimal number argument
21:50:24 <wob_jonas> `hello world
21:50:25 <HackEgo> Hello World!
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21:53:45 <hppavilion[1]> `hi hppavilion[1]
21:53:46 <HackEgo> Hi hppavilion[1]. Havilion[1].
21:53:50 <hppavilion[1]> Woooow
21:53:56 <hppavilion[1]> That's completely wrong
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22:04:16 <\oren\> exact quote from DNC email:
22:07:06 <\oren\> We have been compromised! But it's all ok. Here is our new password: HHQTevgHQ@z&8b6.
22:08:21 <\oren\> how can anyone be so stupid
22:08:45 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Wait, really?
22:10:14 <\oren\> yes, really!
22:12:00 <\oren\> thae email was sent by Rachel Palermo (press secretary of the DNC) to RegionalPress@dnc.org which seems to be a mailing list
22:12:39 <\oren\> this happened twice!
22:13:17 <\oren\> i wonder if hillary clinton's email server also renewed passwords using this ultra-secure method
22:14:42 <\oren\> oh, it didn;t happen twice, she had to resend the email because the password was wrong
22:15:01 <\oren\> the actual password was HQTevgHQ@z&8b6
22:15:07 <\oren\> note only one H
22:15:52 <\oren\> seriously people should flood her linkedin and facebooks calling her a moron
22:16:04 <shachaf> uh
22:16:07 <shachaf> people should not do that
22:18:57 <fizzie> Also, "HQTevgHQ@z&8b6" still has two Hs.
22:19:16 <\oren\> another crazy email: From: Manriquez, Pablo Subject: Password Needed for dncpress@dnc.org Text: Does anyone have it handy? Thank you!
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22:20:27 <\oren\> seriously what is with these people transferring passwords unencrypted over networks, neopets had better security than that
22:22:42 <\oren\> some of their infrastructure at least went with sending password change links rather than actual passwords
22:27:17 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I bet I could make worse security
22:27:19 <hppavilion[1]> Log in -> Forgot password -> Forgot email -> Enter new email -> Send password change link to new email
22:30:12 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Her server wasn't hacked by 1337 Russian H4XX0ЯZ, it was hacked by a totally normal Russian with the most basic understanding of computers who just used Billary's biography to answer the password reset security questions.
22:32:17 <\oren\> yeah probably
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22:32:43 * hppavilion[1] is far too proud of the phrase "1337 Russian H4XX0Я"
22:38:23 <izalove> a 2d game where you're in a modern art museum and you have to steal a painting, but the museum changes its shape. there are one or more guardians and you lose if they see you
22:38:28 <izalove> thoughts on this?
22:38:57 <izalove> guardians cannot see through walls but they may see through windows
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22:43:39 <myname> how would you make that 2d? with windows spanning from top to bottom?
22:44:28 <izalove> uh no just a view from the top
22:44:38 <izalove> windows can just be represented as holes in walls i guess
22:45:04 <myname> sounds a bit like hitman go
22:45:53 <izalove> never played it
22:49:14 <izalove> the trailer looks cool
22:50:20 <izalove> is it called -go for pokemon go?
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22:55:56 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe Catholic Confession would work better if it were distributed- instead of a confessional with a room for a priest and a room for a shamee (though traditional confessionals actually have two shamee rooms and a priest in the middle), two adjacent rooms where each serves as priest-like to the other; they trade confessions and penanceſ
22:59:07 <fizzie> izalove: I believe it has the 'go' suffix just to denote "mobile".
22:59:19 <fizzie> izalove: It does predate Pokémon GO by much.
22:59:55 <izalove> oooh so pokemon go has that suffix because of hitman go
23:00:00 <izalove> thanks for clarifying it fizzie
23:00:48 <fizzie> If you want to think of it like that. I have no idea who started it, but it's definitely not limited to those two games.
23:01:32 <fizzie> (The latest Pokémon GO update doesn't work on my phone. :/)
23:01:44 <myname> fizzie: you have root, then
23:02:07 <fizzie> myname: It's an Android "dev-keys" device, which counts as that.
23:03:13 <fizzie> (Aka an "userdebug" build.)
23:03:35 <myname> doesn't matter that much to me. the game is boring as hell
23:03:56 <fizzie> I like incrementing numbers, and it's got a lot of them to increment.
23:04:03 <fizzie> (Also walking around.)
23:04:46 <fizzie> I agree that it's quite boring, but for some reason walking around without having those numbers increment feels like waste of walking now.
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23:05:04 <myname> play ingress :p
23:05:09 <fizzie> Maybe I should use a fitness tracker or something instead.
23:05:48 <myname> but yeah, there seems to be not a single really interesting ar game around
23:06:14 <fizzie> I also think several of the critters are cute.
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23:07:03 <myname> my dwarfs won't haul :/
23:07:06 <hppavilion[1]> Though it'd have to alternate- with two rooms L, R each occupied by one c \in C (the congregation) at a time, the priest starts in one of the rooms (let's say he starts on the left (L); a priestess would start on the right (R)), the first Congregation member enters R, confesses, and is issued a penance. The priest exits. [ret] The next member enters L, confesses, and is issued a penance by the occupant of R. R exits. goto <cleanup> if
23:07:06 <hppavilion[1]> empty(C). The next in line enters R, confesses, and the occupant of L issues a penance and leaves. goto [end] if empty(C). goto [ret]. [end] L and R both exit. Confession complete, everyone goes and fulfills their penance
23:07:53 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: The holy C.
23:08:53 <hppavilion[1]> (I was originally going to make it so everyone pairs off- two people enter L and R, L confesses to R, R issues penance; R confesses to L, L issues penance, but then I realized that inevitably leads to L inflating penance if they feel R was unfair and R reducing penance so as not to be seen as such)
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23:09:09 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, alternating loop-pairing is MUCH more entertaining)
23:13:37 <hppavilion[1]> (If one wanted to remove the "I is capitalized because the speaker is the most important person on earth" thing from english (for some reason; maybe because it's just a little unnecessary?), would it be better to say 'I' should be lowercase or that all personal pronouns ({'I', 'You', 'He', 'She', 'They' (when singular, ...}) should be capitalized?)
23:13:44 <shachaf> `? firefly
23:13:45 <HackEgo> FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
23:14:02 <FireFly> feel free to replace it
23:14:08 <FireFly> it's a pretty boring factoid
23:14:43 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: Wait, are you named after the show or is the show named after you?
23:14:50 <shachaf> FireFly sprø som selleri and chews ice.
23:15:12 <hppavilion[1]> (It obviously can't be a coincidence, as #esoteric is the centrer of everything)
23:15:58 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: neither, as far as I know
23:16:04 <FireFly> I'm named after the insect, thank you very much
23:16:10 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
23:16:24 <hppavilion[1]> So you share a common name-source
23:16:30 <hppavilion[1]> I always forget about that option
23:16:41 <FireFly> correlation, causation, etc etc
23:16:47 <shachaf> FøreFly
23:18:55 <hppavilion[1]> (Centrer: The systematically and sarcastically annoying approach to settling the er/re divide, taking the ideas of both options and combining them badly in a way that removes the benefits of the American spelling and is somehow /worse/ than the sum of its parts)
23:20:52 <hppavilion[1]> (AKA the aporgenic approach)
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23:20:58 <hppavilion[1]> `? synergy
23:20:59 <HackEgo> synergy? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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23:24:43 <hppavilion[1]> `? le/rn synergy/Something is synergetic when it violates the Law of Conservation of Energy by managing to release more energy than is put in. A possible future Uncontrolled Synergy Scenario is a looming existential threat to humanity.
23:24:44 <HackEgo> le/rn synergy/Something is synergetic when it violates the Law of Conservation of Energy by managing to release more energy than is put in. A possible future Uncontrolled Synergy Scenario is a looming existential threat to humanity.? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:24:51 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn synergy/Something is synergetic when it violates the Law of Conservation of Energy by managing to release more energy than is put in. A possible future Uncontrolled Synergy Scenario is a looming existential threat to humanity.
23:24:55 <HackEgo> Learned «synergy»
23:25:29 <shachaf> that wisdom entry is pointless
23:25:37 <shachaf> put it on twitter
23:26:17 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I feel it's appropriate for wisdom
23:26:43 <shachaf> I feel it's not.
23:27:40 <hppavilion[1]> Also, it's 140 characters too long.
23:28:05 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Then we shall consult an arbitrator.
23:28:57 <hppavilion[1]> As is tradition, the challenger may choose the arbitrator from the pool of eligible arbitrators.
23:39:49 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Roman numeral extension: I is for 1, J is for the denominator (the denominator is assumed to be 1 unless there are symbols overriding- VIII is 8/1 = 8, VIIJ is 8/1 = 8, VIIJJ is 8/2 = 4
23:39:50 <hppavilion[1]> )
23:41:32 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], what would XXX be
23:41:44 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: 30
23:41:53 <Taneb> Not 20/10 or 10/20
23:41:54 <Taneb> ?
23:41:56 <hppavilion[1]> Assuming that's an X
23:42:08 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: No, the X is only the numerator.
23:42:20 <Taneb> How would you write 20/10 then
23:42:21 <hppavilion[1]> 20/10 would be XXY.
23:42:25 <Taneb> Why Y
23:42:48 <Taneb> What would CD be
23:42:50 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Because it's vaguely associated with X and isn't already taken.
23:42:52 <Taneb> 400 or 100/100
23:43:37 <hppavilion[1]> (the 'letter after the normal numeral' thing is just a coincidence)
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