←2016-09-29 2016-09-30 2016-10-01→ ↑2016 ↑all
00:02:36 <Zarutian> boily: only the ones on crustaseans, otherwise it is not salty enough
00:02:52 <oerjan> getting this strange impression Zarutian doesn't like hákarl, even marinated.
00:03:17 <Zarutian> oerjan: it is too basic for me
00:04:09 <Zarutian> (antonymic of acid for the ones slow on the uptake)
00:04:39 * oerjan btw learned yesterday that crustaceans are to insects like dinosaurs are to birds
00:05:52 <oerjan> except for the extinct part, i guess.
00:05:53 <Zarutian> oerjan: well isnt that exoskelent (excelent)?
00:06:02 <ais523> oerjan: I'm sure there are some extinct crustaceans
00:07:07 * boily thwacks Zarutian. 0.33 shachafs.
00:07:11 <Zarutian> humm, I wonder if you could keep land crabs in lower and lower airpressure for their generations and get a space worthy one. Call it Something Blue
00:07:27 <shachaf> boily: It would be good if you switched to a different unit that doesn't hilight me.
00:07:37 <boily> oh hm. right.
00:07:48 <boily> the symbol shall be the «Sh».
00:08:21 <shachaf> `slwd shachaf//s# T.*##
00:08:25 <HackEgo> wisdom/shachaf//Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion.
00:08:35 <shachaf> `? oerjan
00:08:36 <HackEgo> Your mysterious evil hungarian oerlord quack doctor oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Pre-recombination Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:08:45 <oerjan> boily: i hope you subtracted points for explaining the pun
00:08:45 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#doctor ##
00:08:47 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil hungarian oerlord quack oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Pre-recombination Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:09:21 <boily> oerjan: a good -0.1 Sh were removed.
00:09:43 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#hun#bul#
00:09:46 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil bulgarian oerlord quack oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Pre-recombination Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:12:23 <oerjan> shachaf: why do you remove one of the few true parts tdnh
00:12:42 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa whoa whoa
00:12:42 <oerjan> also, what's the fun in the unit if it's abbreviated...
00:12:49 <shachaf> oerjan: hun or dr?
00:12:58 <oerjan> "doctor"
00:12:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
00:13:31 <shachaf> Herr Professor Doktor Oerjan
00:13:53 <shachaf> oerjan: Are you sure you *want* "doctor" to be there, if it's preceded by "quack"?
00:14:08 <oerjan> `slwd oerjan//s/Nor/Glas/
00:14:10 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil bulgarian oerlord quack oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:14:21 <oerjan> escalation!
00:16:12 <olsner> ah, of course Spaghetti is already an esolang
00:17:00 <oerjan> resistance is Fusilli
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00:17:12 <shachaf> Is "Oerjan" or "OErjan" the correct capitalization?
00:17:26 <olsner> had a vague idea that might match such a name (some kind of goto-oriented programming)
00:17:45 <oerjan> the former looks better
00:18:38 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#fu#su#
00:18:41 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil bulgarian oerlord quack oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:18:43 <shachaf> There you go. Doctor.
00:19:03 <shachaf> doctoerjan
00:19:36 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#(oerlord) (quack)#\2 \1#
00:19:37 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 26: invalid reference \2 on `s' command's RHS
00:19:47 <shachaf> That was too much to hope for.
00:20:08 <olsner> slwd might be using the stupid regexps by default
00:20:16 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#\(oerlord\) \(quack\)#\2 \1#
00:20:18 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil bulgarian quack oerlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:21:00 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#oer#doctover#
00:21:03 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil bulgarian quack doctoverlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:21:58 <boily> hellolsner.
00:22:13 <shachaf> `sedlast s#with a pasjon#and passion fruit#
00:22:21 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil bulgarian quack doctoverlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl and passion fruit. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:22:37 <oerjan> hm that may actually be true
00:22:39 <shachaf> `? betty crocker
00:22:40 <HackEgo> Betty Crocker is a notorious gambler.
00:22:49 <shachaf> `cwlprits betty crocker
00:22:55 <HackEgo> fizzie evilipse shachaf
00:23:00 <olsner> helloily and byely (niht)
00:23:00 <shachaf> i am not a crock
00:23:11 <shachaf> `relcome olsner
00:23:15 <HackEgo> olsner: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
00:23:17 <shachaf> I thought "relcome" meant "welcome back".
00:23:17 <oerjan> @nixon what about you
00:23:18 <lambdabot> The press is the enemy.
00:23:25 <shachaf> @nixon
00:23:25 <lambdabot> I can take it. The tougher it gets, the cooler I get.
00:23:37 <olsner> shachaf: back? I was always here
00:23:49 <oerjan> `? olsner
00:23:50 <shachaf> @nixon what do you think about the upcoming presidential election in the united states
00:23:50 <lambdabot> I played by the rules of politics as I found them.
00:23:51 <HackEgo> olsner seems to exist at least. He builds all his esolangs in diesel engines.
00:24:09 <shachaf> @nixon and you think the current candidates should do the same?
00:24:09 <lambdabot> Scrubbing floors and emptying bedpans has as much dignity as the Presidency.
00:25:36 * Zarutian finds the USA presidental election cycle as apealing and quick as removing teeth through the use of live bambo sprouts.
00:25:56 <shachaf> You just want Nixon back?
00:26:47 <Zarutian> add on top of that the local parlimentary elections here that came about due to exposure of corruption and you get me rather cranky
00:27:13 <Zarutian> shachaf: more like Kennedy
00:27:17 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, do Spivak pronouns distinguish animate-inanimate?
00:27:43 <shachaf> parliament? are you some sort of communist
00:27:48 <shachaf> @nixon
00:27:48 <lambdabot> Voters quickly forget what a man says.
00:28:55 <shachaf> @time oerjan
00:28:56 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Fri Sep 30 01:28:55 2016
00:29:01 <Zarutian> but people remember what you have done (against them) on their part
00:29:14 <boily> oerjan: are you wearing an orange t-shirt?
00:29:37 <shachaf> oerjan: Hmm, are you actually evil?
00:29:54 <shachaf> If not, maybe we should update that wisdom entry.
00:30:26 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#doctoverlord#octoberlord#
00:30:29 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil bulgarian quack octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl and passion fruit. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:30:41 <oerjan> boily: grey hth
00:31:04 <shachaf> Your mysterious evil bulgarian quack octoberlord oerjan
00:31:13 <shachaf> Your mysterious evil bulgarian quack octoberlord oerjan
00:31:17 <shachaf> This is pretty good.
00:31:37 <hppavilion[1]> OK, the lack of adverbial forms of numbers other than {1, 2, 3} is REALLY bugging me
00:31:46 <hppavilion[1]> Can we please just invent a system for this?
00:31:49 <shachaf> adversarial forms
00:32:15 <hppavilion[1]> We have "once, twice, thrice"
00:32:39 <oerjan> `slwd oerjan//s/evil/weevil/
00:32:41 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious weevil bulgarian quack octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl and passion fruit. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:32:51 <hppavilion[1]> We can add {-1, -2, -3} with "negative once, negative twice, negative thrice" (or s/negative/minus)
00:33:24 -!- Menphis has joined.
00:33:39 <hppavilion[1]> 0 should probably be 'nulce'
00:33:41 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: "einnar" is adverbial form? ("Single (feminine) <something>")
00:34:01 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: ...no?
00:34:05 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, I'm doing it for English
00:34:34 <oerjan> <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#doctoverlord#octoberlord# <-- hey i had that thought
00:34:42 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: you have actually made this lack in English saliant to me
00:34:53 <hppavilion[1]> If we go by the same system as ordinals (e.g. "ninety-first"), we just need to name 0..19 (and probably just 0..9) and have a way of naming multiples of 10
00:35:38 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: stop complaining, norwegian doesn't have adverbial forms for numbers at all...
00:35:54 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: That's Norwegian's problem
00:36:40 <Zarutian> oerjan: hvad? det kan ikke vera svo? eller er det svo?
00:37:20 <hppavilion[1]> So if second is the object at index 2 and something twice means something that has occurred 2 times, when ninety-first is the object at index 91, and something that has occurred 91 times happened ninety-once
00:37:21 <oerjan> Zarutian: once = en gang, twice = to ganger, etc. no inflection.
00:38:02 <Zarutian> oerjan: so it is. This means it is also such in Danish and Swedish.
00:39:26 <hppavilion[1]> nulce, once, twice, thrice, fice, vice, sice, sevice, eice, nince, tence, elevence, twelce, thirteence, fourteence, .., ninteence, twentiece
00:39:44 <boily> une fois, deux fois, trois fois, quatre fois... pour une fois que le français fait du sens, tsé...
00:40:12 <hppavilion[1]> thirtiece, fourtiece, fiftiece, sixtiece, seventiece, eightiece, ninetiece, hundredce
00:40:40 <hppavilion[1]> Thousandce, [myiace], millionce, billionce, trillionce
00:40:40 <shachaf> the white cliffs of doctoverlord
00:40:43 <hppavilion[1]> And so on
00:41:09 <hppavilion[1]> There, english is now less bad
00:41:10 <oerjan> boily: meanwhile, latin has a comprehensive set. semel, bis, ter, quater ...
00:41:28 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: but this applies to how something happens n times and not the exact cardinality of something else?
00:41:35 <shachaf> That's a scow way to extend a language.
00:41:38 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: Correct
00:41:48 <shachaf> Better to use separate words than inflecting.
00:41:57 <boily> itym a scowce way hth
00:41:59 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: -ce is no different from -th
00:42:13 <hppavilion[1]> boily: No, ace scow way
00:42:27 <shachaf> ?
00:42:29 <shachaf> fith?
00:42:29 <Zarutian> oerjan: can you tell me if this phrase "memento vitae" is correct latin for "I am reminded that I am alive and joyously existant"
00:42:32 <shachaf> vith?
00:42:40 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: fifth
00:42:51 <shachaf> Better to learn Chinese.
00:43:10 <hppavilion[1]> Fource and fifce would be fine, I guess...
00:43:25 <hppavilion[1]> (Though 'quice' might be better for 4)
00:43:27 <shachaf> sith?
00:43:36 <Zarutian> shachaf: lojban has its charms and doesnt require you to trying to learn to differeniate between modal tones.
00:43:36 <shachaf> absolutely not
00:43:42 <shachaf> Lojban is scow.
00:43:56 <shachaf> The "absolutely not" was a response to "sith?", not to lojban.
00:44:10 <shachaf> Tones aren't even that hard, I assume.
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00:44:23 <oerjan> Zarutian: no, memento is imperative. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/memini#Latin
00:44:32 <shachaf> When I listen to Mandarin for a while I can usually distinguish them after a bit.
00:44:46 <shachaf> oerjanto
00:44:47 <Zarutian> shachaf: for someone who is somewhat tonechange deaf it is a problem.
00:45:04 <shachaf> How do you think Chinese speakers handle it?
00:45:15 <shachaf> Or are they none of them "tonechange deaf"?
00:45:31 <shachaf> Or maybe it's too late for you, in your advanced age, to learn it.
00:45:32 <Zarutian> oerjan: oh, as the phrase "memento mori" as said to Cesar literally means "remember thou art mortal"
00:46:13 <shachaf> Why would it literally mean something in Elizabethan English?
00:46:35 <Zarutian> shachaf: literally used here in figgurative sense
00:46:53 <shachaf> remember you are figurative
00:47:11 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa
00:47:12 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Modern_English
00:47:12 <Zarutian> shachaf: and not verbtaim unless as a quote to a movie on the life and death of Cesar
00:47:36 <shachaf> The King James Bible came out after (most of) Shakespeare's plays.
00:47:47 <oerjan> Zarutian: well "mori" means to die, infinitive, but i guess latin uses it metaphorically
00:48:05 <shachaf> In the Jacobian era. And yet Leibniz was only born decades later?
00:48:16 <shachaf> this does not add up hth
00:48:36 <oerjan> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/memento_mori#Latin
00:49:08 <Zarutian> shafchaf: oyj dont expose the timewars stitchings this harshly
00:49:44 <Zarutian> shafchaf: it is bad enough to have some people so hopelessly stuck in the past that never was.
00:49:45 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa
00:49:53 <shachaf> The Jacobian is named after King James.
00:50:26 -!- oerjan has set topic: The Everchanging Topic | This counter has been incremented six times | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf".
00:51:27 * Zarutian adds: specially when we got historical characters that never should have been at all.
00:51:39 <shachaf> Taneb: favorite king james: i-v of scotland, i-iii/vi-viii of england and scotland, or one of the spanish ones?
00:52:58 <Zarutian> well, I am off to bed
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00:57:06 <shachaf> That lining is all wrong.
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01:11:14 <fizzie> shachaf: What, the matrix?
01:11:21 <shachaf> Who?
01:11:26 <fizzie> Jacobian.
01:11:35 <shachaf> Yes.
01:11:39 <shachaf> Very mysterious.
01:11:47 <shachaf> 16:48 <shachaf> In the Jacobian era. And yet Leibniz was only born decades later?
01:12:32 <fizzie> I didn't read that far back up.
01:12:49 <oerjan> i think the picture here has the right expression for your claim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Gustav_Jacob_Jacobi
01:14:19 <quintopia> boily: hello
01:25:56 <hppavilion[1]> ...wtf, doctors. You want BMI calculated as m/h^2, but you want us to just drop the units? seriously?
01:26:32 <hppavilion[1]> They say you calculate BMI with weight (kg) divided by height (m), but the result isn't given in kg/m^2
01:26:33 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
01:39:20 <hppavilion[1]> If dy/dx is the derivative of a function, can one do other derivatives?
01:39:36 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: dy/dx is the derivative of y with respect to x
01:39:41 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Yes
01:39:46 <ais523> and in this case, y is defined as a function of x
01:40:02 <ais523> for example, if y=x², then dy/dx = 2x
01:40:05 <hppavilion[1]> Like, if I have a function f(x, y, z) = o, I can do do/dx, do/dy, do/dz
01:40:18 <ais523> you could also write that like this: d(x²)/dx = 2x
01:40:31 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: in that case you have what's called partial derivatives
01:40:35 <boily> quintopia: QUINTHELLOPIA.
01:41:14 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: But can I then do derivative in multiple dimensions? Probably something like f(x, z) = y, dy/dxdz or something?
01:41:27 <hppavilion[1]> (How do you even refer to slope in multiple dimensions?)
01:44:02 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: you could do it at an angle, dy/d(x+z)
01:44:08 <hppavilion[1]> OK...
01:44:21 <ais523> but slope in multiple dimensions is normally referred to using two different slopes
01:44:29 <ais523> dy/dx and dy/dz in this case
01:45:52 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Would dx/dy (for y = f x) mean the derivative of a function g x = 1/f x?
01:46:21 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: depends on what you mean by "1/f"; it's the derivative of the inverse of f
01:46:56 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: 1/(f x)
01:46:59 <DHeadshot> possibly f-1'(x)?
01:47:14 <hppavilion[1]> (I suddenly curried everything)
01:47:18 <shachaf> ais523: Did you see all my questions about Leibniz notation in here?
01:47:25 <shachaf> Maybe you know the answers.
01:47:30 <ais523> shachaf: no, but I'm not sure I could answer them
01:47:37 <shachaf> It sounds like you have the same answer to the first question that I did.
01:47:49 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: the derivative of 1/(f x) is calculated quite differently
01:47:53 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Oh
01:48:05 <shachaf> Namely, when you write dy/dx, y is an expression with free variable x, and it means D(\x. y)(x)
01:48:17 <shachaf> Where D : (R -> R) -> (R -> R) is the differentiation operator on functions.
01:48:38 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I defined division of strings yesterday...
01:48:39 <ais523> shachaf: I don't think of it like that at all, although it does seem correct
01:48:48 <shachaf> Oh, then how do you think of it?
01:48:48 <ais523> like, that's just a really alien point of view to me
01:48:54 <ais523> shachaf: in terms of limits
01:49:04 <shachaf> One person I talked to insisted that the thing on top of dy/dx is a function, rather than an expression.
01:49:23 <DHeadshot> Would dx/dy be basically f-1'(x) than or have I got that wrong? It's been years since I did all this in my first year of Uni...
01:49:36 <shachaf> Well, sure. Df(x) = lim_{h->0}{ (f(x+h) - f(x)) / h }
01:49:38 <ais523> DHeadshot: no, that's right
01:50:02 <ais523> shachaf: I'll buy that
01:50:05 <shachaf> dx/dy = 1/(dy/dx)
01:50:05 <DHeadshot> Thanks ais523
01:50:23 <ais523> the thing is I think of the dx and dy things as being deltas on x and y that are inherently self-limiting
01:50:51 <shachaf> This notation is obviously great because it works so well.
01:51:02 <shachaf> dy/du * du/dx = dy/dx, 1/(dy/dx) = dx/dy, etc.
01:51:11 <ais523> shachaf: right, and the delta notation explains why it works
01:51:14 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I'm pretty sure d is just an abstract symbol; dy/dx = limit(λ k -> (y*k/x)/(k), approach=0)
01:51:21 <hppavilion[1]> If I'm reading Wikipedia right
01:51:37 <hppavilion[1]> And turning limit into a function anybody could ever understand
01:51:53 <DHeadshot> I have seen delta-x/delta-y in some equations, though I forget why
01:52:12 <ais523> like, the way I think about d is
01:52:17 <ais523> you replace it with delta
01:52:27 <ais523> then take a limit on the entire expression containing it in which you tend the deltas to 0
01:52:45 <shachaf> ais523: What do you think of the thing people do where they have e.g.: x^2 + y^2 = 1; d(x^2 + y^2) = d(1); 2x dx + 2y dy = 0; dy/dx = -x/y
01:52:47 <ais523> the fact that it has an effect on the containing expression means that it isn't quite a variable or something that can be manipulated in its own right
01:53:24 <ais523> shachaf: it's fun when it works, but not necessarily worth memorizing the rules needed to know whether it will work or not
01:53:30 <hppavilion[1]> limit :: t → (t → u) → u
01:53:39 <shachaf> ais523: What are the rules?
01:53:51 <ais523> I don't know, I didn't memorize them
01:53:52 <shachaf> lim : (R -> R) -> (R -> R)
01:54:07 <shachaf> ais523: Everyone says these rules are ad-hoc.
01:54:18 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I think my version is better
01:54:20 <shachaf> Well, physicists just use them.
01:54:26 <ais523> well, I think there's a mathematical basis behind why it works
01:54:49 <shachaf> But they work so well that I think there has to be a good way of formalizing them. Even if dx is just a synthetic symbol or whatever.
01:54:59 <hppavilion[1]> <limit a f> is the limit of (f x) as x goes to a
01:54:59 <shachaf> My L : (R -> R) -> (R -> R) is pretty good.
01:55:07 <shachaf> A function f is continous if Lf=f
01:55:16 <ais523> shachaf: L is a continuiser?
01:55:18 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Mine doesn't require that you use the real numbers
01:55:31 <shachaf> Neither does mine, if you come up with another structure that it works for.
01:55:43 <hppavilion[1]> OTOH, shachaf understands Calculus and I do not
01:55:51 <shachaf> But you need to constrain t and u somehow.
01:56:01 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: it's not as hard as people think it is
01:56:03 <hppavilion[1]> ...I searched Duck Duck Go for "limits". The first suggestion for meaning was in the BDSM sense
01:56:06 <shachaf> Lf(x) is a function which behaves kind of like f but maybe differently. Except it might be extremely different.
01:56:10 <ais523> at least, differential calculus
01:56:26 <shachaf> ais523: Anyway, the thing about x^2 + y^2 = 1 is that neither x nor y is a function of the other one.
01:56:37 <shachaf> But the derivative is still defined.
01:56:48 <shachaf> One way to make sense of that is to parameterize them both on some other variable t.
01:56:53 <shachaf> x=sin t, y=cos t
01:57:00 <ais523> yes, that's a well-known trick
01:57:05 <shachaf> And then "dy" really means "dy/dt" and "dx" really means "dx/dt"
01:57:16 <shachaf> But the thing is that the value of dy/dx is independent of your parameterization.
01:57:26 <ais523> it would have to be
01:57:31 <shachaf> So why should you have to say that it's parameterized in the first place? I just want a direct meaning of "d".
01:58:53 <shachaf> People also do other tricks. They write: dy/dx = Ky; dy/y = K dx; \Int{dy/y} = \Int{K dx}; log(y) + C = Kx + D
01:58:58 <ais523> well, with the limits interpretation, dy/dx is perfectly meaningful here, so long as you can describe "a small change in x and y simultaneously while obeying the equation"
01:59:00 <shachaf> It almost always seems to work.
01:59:03 <ais523> that's basically what t does
01:59:17 <ais523> it allows you to describe how to change x and y while keeping the equation satisfied
01:59:28 <shachaf> Another thing you can write is d(x^3)/d(x^2). So the thing on the bottom isn't even a variable.
01:59:41 <ais523> there are other equations, such as cos(x)+sin(y)=2, which can't be perturbed while keeping the equation satisfied
01:59:53 <ais523> so I suspect that equation isn't differentiable
02:00:09 <ais523> what happens if you try the physicist trick on it?
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02:00:48 <DHeadshot> This is all starting to get a bit "black-magic proofs"...
02:01:03 <ais523> DHeadshot: right, we're busy debating if the proofs work or not and if so why
02:01:05 <ais523> hmm, let's try it
02:01:09 <ais523> cos(x)+sin(y)=2
02:01:14 <ais523> d cos(x) + d sin(y) = d 2
02:01:26 <ais523> cos(y) - sin (x) = 0
02:01:31 <shachaf> dy/dx = sin(x)/cos(y)
02:01:38 <shachaf> You're missing the dx and dy
02:01:38 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: But if we define the division of two strings s and t s/t (where every character in t appears at least as many times in s- written tally(s) :≥ tally(t)) as- non-deterministically- any string that can be generated by removing the same number of occurrences of a character from the top string as appear in the bottom string
02:01:46 <ais523> shachaf: ah right
02:01:47 <hppavilion[1]> s/But //
02:03:07 <shachaf> ais523: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=cos(x)%2Bsin(y)%3D2 is the graph of that function.
02:03:30 <shachaf> It doesn't look very interesting, so I'd expect its tangents aren't very interesting either.
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02:03:55 <shachaf> But take cos(x)+sin(y)=0 instead.
02:03:55 <ais523> shachaf: it's basically a grid of dots
02:04:15 <ais523> I did that intentionally, to make it impossible to usefully draw a tangent
02:04:18 <shachaf> Ah, right.
02:04:53 <shachaf> Points like (0,pi/2)
02:05:19 <shachaf> But note that the derivative dy/dx is independent of the value 2 here.
02:05:37 <hppavilion[1]> (There are certain special types of quotient; for example, a Simple Quotient of s/t is any string in the set of quotients of s/t that have the smallest edit distance using the Simple Distance metric (which allows nothing but insertion and deletion of arbitrary-length continuous blocks of text))
02:05:58 <DHeadshot> Graph isn't showing up for me?
02:06:01 <ais523> shachaf: try cos(x)-cos(y)=0
02:06:12 <ais523> the tangents to that are really easy to define
02:06:26 <ais523> however, changing the 0 to a different value changes them
02:06:30 <hppavilion[1]> (A Proper Quotient of s/t is only possible when t is a proper substring of s (and you just remove that substring), a Perfect Quotient is a Perfect Quotient where the substring is at the very end)
02:06:39 <shachaf> ais523: Right, but dy/dx is defined in terms of both x and y
02:06:46 <ais523> oh right
02:06:51 <ais523> that's a good point
02:06:52 <hppavilion[1]> So 'abcdefg'/'fg' = 'abcde', and that's a perfect quotient
02:07:02 <shachaf> ais523: Same thing for the circle: x^2+y^2=k has the same tangents no matter what the radius is, in terms of x and y.
02:07:27 <shachaf> ais523: Which makes dy/dx = -x/y a much better answer than something like dy/dx = -x/sqrt(1-x^2), which only works for one radius.
02:07:45 <shachaf> (And also it works for the whole circle rather than just the top half.)
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02:07:49 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: But my point is, with this needlessly convoluted system of string functions, can we start to play with dy/dx of y = f(x) when the function is f : String → String?
02:08:07 <ais523> shachaf: the formula with sqrt also works for both halves :-P
02:08:19 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I'm not really interested in the topic, sorry
02:08:22 <shachaf> Depending on what you mean by sqrt.
02:08:24 <hppavilion[1]> ;/
02:08:26 <hppavilion[1]> *:/
02:09:28 <shachaf> Anyway, dy/dx = sin(x)/cos(y), at (0,pi/2), is 0/0
02:09:35 <shachaf> And the derivative is indeed not defined.
02:09:44 <shachaf> So it's not so bad.
02:11:06 <shachaf> Er, no.
02:11:14 <shachaf> Er, yes.
02:11:26 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> ...OK, on second thought, the GoJ is terrible. <-- that didn't take long
02:11:39 <shachaf> Oh, you wrote cos(x)+sin(y)=2
02:11:45 <shachaf> That's why it wasn't working.
02:12:06 <shachaf> But when cos(x)+sin(y)=2, cos(y) will always be 0
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02:17:37 <shachaf> I have more things on this topic but I'm not sure whether ais523 isn't interested in either one.
02:17:43 <shachaf> I'm curious about the "self-limiting" thing.
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02:20:13 <shachaf> Last time I was wondering about how this worked for second derivatives.
02:20:43 <ais523> I'm fairly sure it does but am possibly too tired to figure out how
02:20:56 <ais523> I think you have to take a limit /of/ a limit
02:21:03 <shachaf> What do you think about the notation d^2y/dx^2?
02:21:13 <ais523> which is why the d²y notation exists
02:21:22 <shachaf> Right, I believe that d(dy) has a meaning.
02:21:28 <shachaf> But why do you divide by dx twice?
02:21:29 <ais523> (specifically, it's d²y/(dx)²)
02:21:42 <ais523> bleh, I can't remember
02:21:49 <shachaf> And in particular if you work it out, you get an extra term.
02:21:50 <ais523> I knew the reason once, and it was a good one
02:21:53 <ais523> I just can't remember what it was
02:22:04 <shachaf> Which maybe should be 0 and maybe shouldn't? oerjan was saying something about it.
02:22:09 <shachaf> Say you parameterize everything in terms of dt.
02:22:28 <Bowserinator> Question: what's this channel for?
02:22:32 <shachaf> So d(...) really means what people usually write as d(...)/dt
02:22:36 <Bowserinator> it's like ##programming ##math and ##english
02:22:38 <shachaf> `welcome Bowserinator
02:22:39 <HackEgo> Bowserinator: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
02:22:49 <Bowserinator> *clicks*
02:22:53 <ais523> Bowserinator: notionally it's about esoteric programming languages
02:22:56 <Bowserinator> oh :)
02:22:59 <ais523> but it tends to go offtopic a lot
02:23:01 <Bowserinator> I like this channel already
02:23:09 <shachaf> I think Leibniz notation isn't really too far from esoteric languages.
02:23:21 <ais523> right, the things we discuss are normally related to esolangs in some ways
02:23:29 <shachaf> Recently I learned a new word, "exoteric", meaning the opposite of esoteric.
02:23:34 <ais523> e.g. they're the result of applying an esolang frame of mind to something other than programming
02:23:41 <ais523> English is an esoteric natural language, for example :-P
02:24:52 <ais523> if you tried to design an esolang to work like English
02:25:01 <ais523> admittedly you'd probably end up with Perl, which is not quite esoteric
02:25:17 <ais523> (Larry Wall was a specialist on natural languages and used English as a model when creating Perl)
02:25:38 <shachaf> ais523: Anyway, I think you get: d(dy) = d(dy/dx)/dx^3 + (dy/dx) d(dx)
02:26:28 <jeffl35> Bowserinator: ohai
02:26:36 -!- otherbot has joined.
02:26:41 <jeffl35> my bot has too many interpreters
02:26:45 <jeffl35> blame moonythedwarf
02:26:47 <jeffl35> -list
02:26:47 <otherbot> jeffl35: echo ping pong eval flushq help list use store cash inv savecstate buy sell give kick ban unban op deop mode attack poke join part reload whois nick pyc pad pyr giac befr padclr lolr ><>r js rsc ul makeCmd userland rulc pnig
02:26:50 <jeffl35> -pnig
02:26:50 <otherbot> LEARN TO TYPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!11!!!!1!!!
02:26:52 <jeffl35> lol
02:26:53 <ais523> jeffl35: hackego has way more
02:27:04 <shachaf> ais523: So d^2y/dx^2 = d(dy/dx)/dx + (dy/dx) d^2x/dx^2
02:27:08 <jeffl35> ais523: yeah, probably, considering it's been in development for a few years
02:27:12 <shachaf> What's the meaning of that extra term?
02:27:19 <jeffl35> ohb tw
02:27:23 <jeffl35> otherbot has a cas!
02:27:27 <jeffl35> -giac integrate()
02:27:28 <otherbot> Added 0 synonyms "integrate(NULL) Error: Bad Argument Value" // Time 0 // Total time 0
02:27:35 <ais523> jeffl35: the main bot in this channel for years was egobot
02:27:41 <ais523> hackego has all its interpreters
02:27:42 <jeffl35> yeah, ik
02:27:51 <jeffl35> oh
02:27:53 <jeffl35> read that wrong
02:27:59 <jeffl35> lol
02:28:02 <ais523> `! underload (test)S
02:28:03 <HackEgo> test
02:28:08 <shachaf> Wasn't bot spam supposed to go in #esoteric-blah, anyway?
02:28:14 <jeffl35> -ul (test)S
02:28:14 <otherbot> ​test
02:28:17 <jeffl35> :D
02:28:25 <jeffl35> shachaf: no idea
02:28:27 <ais523> shachaf: #esoteric-blah is basically for anything that's particularly spammy that we don't want cluttering this channel
02:28:33 <ais523> like pasting entire text files directly into IRC
02:28:33 <jeffl35> like stack traces!
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02:28:38 <jeffl35> or that
02:28:50 <jeffl35> my bot has a bad habit of outputting whole stack traces to irc when run on the wrong node.js version
02:29:05 <ais523> its rules are very similar to #esoteric's except a) there's no rule against flooding (in fact, it's somewhat encouraged) and b) people hardly ever speak there unless a conversation gets moved there from here
02:29:29 <jeffl35> -giac integrate(5x-4)
02:29:30 <otherbot> Added 0 synonyms 5*x^2/2-4*x // Time 0.01 // Total time 0.01
02:29:34 <jeffl35> well, there we go
02:29:46 <jeffl35> -giac dxdy()
02:29:46 <otherbot> Help file /usr/share/giac/doc/local/aide_cas not found Added 0 synonyms dxdy // Time 0 // Total time 0
02:29:56 <jeffl35> definitely not a thing
02:30:03 <jeffl35> -giac derivative()
02:30:03 <otherbot> // Maximum number of parallel threads 8 Help file /usr/share/giac/doc/local/aide_cas not found Added derivative
02:30:10 <jeffl35> -giac derivative()
02:30:11 <otherbot> C.UTF-8 // /usr/share/locale/ // derivative
02:30:15 <jeffl35> -giac derivative()
02:30:15 <otherbot> Added 0 synonyms derivative // Time 0 // Total time 0
02:30:17 <shachaf> ais523: Is (dy/dx)^2 = dy^2/dx^2?
02:30:22 <jeffl35> ????????????????????????????????????
02:30:39 <ais523> shachaf: I think so
02:30:59 <shachaf> oerjan was pointing out some counterexample a few days ago.
02:31:11 <shachaf> Which led me to think that I wasn't sure about d^2x/dx^2
02:31:20 <shachaf> Should it be 0?
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02:33:08 <ais523> shachaf: good point, second derivative of x is 0
02:34:10 <ais523> which means that you can't treat that like a normal division
02:34:11 <shachaf> Say you parameterize it in t, so d means derivative with respect to t. x = t^2; d(dx) = 2; dx^2 = 4x^2; d^2x/dx^2 = 1/(2x^2)
02:34:34 <shachaf> So certainly it doesn't just naively work when you parameterize it like this.
02:38:31 <shachaf> If it's not normal division, what is it?
02:40:20 <shachaf> Say everything is parameterized in t, dy/dx = u. That means dy = u dx, so d(dy) = du dx + u d(dx)
02:40:28 <shachaf> Should that much be permitted?
02:41:18 <ais523> ugh, I'm too tired to figure this out
02:41:23 <ais523> also haven't had to calculus this much in years
02:41:31 <shachaf> @time ais523
02:41:32 <lambdabot> Local time for ais523 is Fri Sep 30 02:41:32 2016
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02:56:40 <oerjan> shachaf: i assumed this was what those extra terms in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_of_a_function#Higher-order_differentials were supposed to fix
02:56:58 <shachaf> oerjan: Didn't we have a counterexample?
02:57:00 <oerjan> (for the x not the independent variable case)
02:57:32 <shachaf> I mean, those extra terms were the same as the ones I had given before.
02:58:06 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i was all quacked out at that point
02:58:14 <shachaf> Ah, right.
02:59:11 <shachaf> Let's see.
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03:02:50 <shachaf> I've forgotten the example. There were two of them.
03:04:50 <oerjan> i vaguely think my original example was based on assuming f''(x) = d^2 y / (dx)^2 held and getting a contradiction if dx is 0 because x = g(t) where g'(t) = 0.
03:06:13 <shachaf> OK, one example had x=t^2, y=t^3
03:06:17 <shachaf> Let me work through that again.
03:06:50 <oerjan> hm i suppose what happens with the expanded formula is that d^2 y does not determine f''(x)
03:07:17 <shachaf> f'' means d(dy/dx)/dx?
03:07:24 <shachaf> Er, f''(x)
03:08:01 <oerjan> instead, when dx = 0, you get f'(x) = d^2 y / d^2 x. which looks like l'hôpital.
03:08:52 <oerjan> (vaguely)
03:09:02 <shachaf> Hmm, there's an easier way of looking at it, I guess. If d(dy/dx)/dx = d(dy)/dx^2, then d(u/v) = d(u)/v, which is obviously not true in general. In general d(u/v) = (v du - u dv)/v^2
03:09:22 <shachaf> Which is equal to d(u)/v when dv = 0
03:09:45 <oerjan> shachaf: oh, i still cannot get my head around trying to calculate second derivatives like d(dy/dx)/dx, because scope.
03:09:54 <shachaf> oerjan: What? There's no scope issue there.
03:10:14 <shachaf> If y is an expression in x, y = x^2, then dy/dx is also an expression in x, dy/dx = 2x
03:10:56 <shachaf> OK, I guess what you're saying is that there might be confusing shadowing going on there.
03:11:04 <oerjan> yeah
03:11:15 <shachaf> I'm hoping that that's not true but I can see the objection.
03:11:34 <shachaf> But I don't want to write f''(x), because y might not be a function of x
03:12:16 <oerjan> i think it might be worth avoiding explicit division.
03:12:47 <shachaf> OK.
03:12:55 <shachaf> Well, you can do it with products too.
03:13:05 <shachaf> Instead of dy/dx = u, write dy = u dx
03:13:25 <oerjan> that way, you won't divide by zeros
03:13:27 <shachaf> Then d(dy) = du dx + u d(dx)
03:14:11 <shachaf> If you could divide by dx^2 here, you would get d(dy)/dx^2 = du/dx + du d(dx)/dx^2
03:14:26 <shachaf> But that probably isn't necessary.
03:14:41 <oerjan> i think that's precisely the formula from wikipedia?
03:15:11 <shachaf> Sure, except I wrote u instead of f'(x)
03:16:23 <shachaf> Anyway: If dy = u dx, then d(dy) = du dx + u d(dx)
03:16:24 <shachaf> Always true?
03:16:51 <oerjan> and we're allowed to replace du dx by f''(x) dx^2 assuming f''(x) exists, even if dx is 0
03:17:18 <shachaf> But that one only makes sense if y is a function of x.
03:17:46 <oerjan> no, because the ordinary chain rule works for first derivatives
03:18:05 <shachaf> Doesn't f only make sense if y = f(x)?
03:18:12 <oerjan> well yeah
03:18:24 <oerjan> that's the assumption in the formula.
03:18:26 <shachaf> That's why I was avoiding it.
03:19:05 <oerjan> but if it isn't, then i'm not sure dy = u dx is conceptually true
03:19:24 <shachaf> Because y = f(t), x = g(t)
03:19:45 <shachaf> And dy/dt = u dx/dt
03:20:10 <shachaf> OK, I got the algebra wrong last time, I think.
03:20:22 <oerjan> ok, assuming dx/dt isn't 0 anywhere dy/dt isn't
03:20:51 <shachaf> Sure.
03:21:07 <shachaf> Say x=t^2, y=t^3.
03:21:10 <shachaf> Then it works out.
03:21:12 <oerjan> or actually, if both are 0 you need l'hôpital again
03:21:26 <shachaf> d(dy) = 6t, du dx = 3t, u d(dx) = 3t
03:23:47 <shachaf> oerjan: So it's sounding like it actually is the same scope?
03:24:37 <oerjan> yeah maybe
03:25:05 <shachaf> So the lesson here is that the notation d^2y/dx^2 is kind of broken.
03:25:32 <shachaf> In particular it only works when d^2x = 0?
03:25:43 <shachaf> But what does it mean for d^2x to be 0?
03:26:11 <oerjan> well it's true if x is the independent variable
03:26:19 <shachaf> What does that mean?
03:26:37 <oerjan> the one everything bottoms out as functions of
03:26:37 <shachaf> I thought half the point of this notation was that you can just do these mafipulations on their own and they work.
03:26:53 <shachaf> I'm trying to get a parameterization-free version of it.
03:27:10 <oerjan> and then you need the d^2 x term, i guess.
03:27:33 <shachaf> I'm OK with that.
03:28:19 <shachaf> It's even useful to know: The usual second derivative expression d^2y/dx^2 off by (dy/dx) (d^2x/dx^2)
03:28:26 <shachaf> What's the meaning of that?
03:29:10 <shachaf> I mean, that looks like an important expression, so where else does it come up?
03:31:37 <shachaf> Say I just have some expressions or functions or whatever else. How do I decide whether d^2x = 0?
03:31:49 <shachaf> In differential geometry, d^2 = 0 always, right? Are these related?
03:32:08 <oerjan> differential geometry is antisymmetric, i don't think this is
03:32:22 <shachaf> As in dx dy = -dy dx?
03:32:24 <oerjan> *the forms of
03:33:10 <shachaf> Maybe this is antisymmetric when you have multiple independent variables?
03:33:22 <shachaf> We've been making the assumptions that y and x are functions of the same thing.
03:34:36 <shachaf> On the other hand https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/ae52a2c75169e1884e87a001e385e94ce7164111 doesn't look very antisymmetric either...
03:35:00 <oerjan> i'm not sure what happens for second derivatives when you vary more than one independent variable, although there was some partial stuff in that wp section too
03:36:35 <shachaf> If dy = f'(x) dx, then dy dx = (f'(x) dx) dx and dx dy = dx (f'(x) dx)
03:37:20 <shachaf> And given that these things are linear, those should maybe be equal?
03:37:32 <oerjan> you'd think.
03:37:33 <shachaf> I guess it depends on how you define the product.
03:39:15 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_form says the exterior derivative "extends the differential of a function"
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03:44:54 <oerjan> oh well
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04:00:16 <shachaf> `? oerjan
04:00:17 <HackEgo> Your mysterious weevil bulgarian quack octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl and passion fruit. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
04:00:43 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa whoa whoa, did you slwd your own wisdom entry?
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04:03:33 <shachaf> `emoclew Tefaj
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04:09:15 <izalove> is 960x720 720p?
04:10:00 <shachaf> > 720 * 16/9
04:10:02 <lambdabot> 1280.0
04:10:05 <shachaf> no hth
04:10:16 <izalove> then i feel cheated
04:10:46 <izalove> this torrent i just illegally downloaded was supposed to be evangelion in 720p but it's 960x720
04:11:13 <shachaf> > 960/720
04:11:15 <lambdabot> 1.3333333333333333
04:11:31 <shachaf> maybe it didn't claim to be 16:9
04:11:43 <shachaf> i guess "4:3 720p" would be that
04:11:48 <shachaf> > 1280-960
04:11:50 <lambdabot> 320
04:12:05 <shachaf> it's only off by a few pixels
04:12:37 <izalove> i'll ask for a full refund
04:16:12 <Jafet> fahcahellos
04:16:21 <Jafet> full refund? what nerv.
04:25:01 <FreeFull> 720p is literally "720 vertical lines, progressive" (as opposed to interlaced)
04:25:12 <FreeFull> It could be just 1 pixel thick and still count
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04:28:30 <izalove> that's why i couldn't get a refund
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06:24:54 <hppavilion[1]> Is it appropriate just to say n! = gamma(n+1) and be done with it?
06:27:36 <shachaf> For whom?
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07:11:53 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Humans?
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07:27:34 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: only when the audience has enough knowledge about gamma function
07:27:47 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: Well yeah
07:46:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Biota]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49824&oldid=30500 * Martin Ender * (+19)
07:47:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quipu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49825&oldid=45982 * Martin Ender * (+39)
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07:49:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Marbelous]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49826&oldid=45195 * Martin Ender * (+57)
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08:28:48 <hppavilion[1]> I vote we make Abortion clinics (and anything associated with birth control) use a variant symbol of the Rod of Aesculapius that replaces the snake with a wire coathanger. Because I'm a bad person.
08:31:15 <shachaf> Do you actually mean that you're a bad person?
08:31:53 <shachaf> If so, saying you're a bad person doesn't exempt you from any of the consequence of acting in a bad way.
08:32:05 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I know
08:32:13 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I thought the imagery was funny
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08:42:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Half-Broken Car in Heavy Traffic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49827&oldid=35363 * Martin Ender * (+57)
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09:21:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RUBE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49828&oldid=33697 * Martin Ender * (+39)
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10:05:20 <shachaf> oerjan: So when people differentiate twice, they write (d/dx) . (d/dx)
10:05:32 <shachaf> (d/dx) really means (/dx) . d
10:05:48 <shachaf> So differentiating twice is (*1/dx) . d . (*1/dx) . d
10:06:36 <shachaf> If 1/dx is a constant, then the multiplication commutes with d. If not then you need to add an extra term. to account for how it changes.
10:07:20 <shachaf> ((d^2/dx^2) means ((*1/x) . (*1/x) . d . d), of course.)
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10:11:38 <int-e> s=/x=/dx=g
10:11:54 <shachaf> Er, yes.
10:13:06 <int-e> and you're in somewhat murky territory (treating d as a separate operator), but I suppose you know that.
10:13:33 <shachaf> Yes, see either conversation with ais523 a few hours ago or the conversation with oerjan a few days ago.
10:13:45 <shachaf> It's somewhat murky but I'm trying to figure out how d behaves in order to make it less murky.
10:14:00 <shachaf> In order to make it work I've been saying that x and y are both secretly defined in terms of t.
10:14:17 <shachaf> d(e) means what people would normally write as de/dt
10:14:44 <shachaf> And everything works pretty well, d(x^2) = 2x dx and so on.
10:15:57 <shachaf> But the second derivative of y in terms of x isn't d^2y/dx^2, it's d^2y/dx^2 - (dy/dx) d^2x/dx^2
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10:17:25 <shachaf> Or you can just say d(dy) = d(dy/dx) dx + (dy/dx) d(dx)
10:18:55 <shachaf> Is it the case that (dy/dx)^2 = dy^2/dx^2?
10:20:40 <shachaf> If y is in terms of an independent variable x, (dy/dx)^2 = dy^2/dx^2, and the second derivative is d^2y/dx^2. So f''(x)/f'(x)^2 = d^2y/dy^2?
10:20:51 <shachaf> (Where y = f(x).)
10:21:14 <Taneb> d(2x)/dx = 2; d((2x)^2)/d(x^2) = d(4x^2)/d(x^2) = 4 = 2^2
10:21:16 <shachaf> Does f''(x)/f'(x)^2 have a standard name?
10:21:39 <Taneb> So, that's one black crow
10:21:46 <shachaf> Taneb: ?
10:21:58 <Taneb> shachaf, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_paradox
10:22:38 <shachaf> I'm not following. Are you saying that there's a flaw or that what you just said is irrelevant?
10:23:34 <shachaf> d(4x^2)/d(x^2) is certainly 4.
10:23:58 <shachaf> d(4u)/du = 4 for any choice of u
10:24:25 <Taneb> shachaf, I'm saying it's a tiiiiny bit of evidence that's ultimately useless
10:24:37 <shachaf> Evidence of what?
10:24:55 <Taneb> <shachaf> Is it the case that (dy/dx)^2 = dy^2/dx^2?
10:25:22 <shachaf> dx^2 means (dx)^2
10:25:53 <Taneb> Ah, I misinterpreted you
10:26:24 <Taneb> This isn't something I know very well at all I'm afraid
10:27:43 <shachaf> The question I asked was kind of meaningless in itself.
10:28:21 <shachaf> Taneb: Wait, didn't you invent D-modules?
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10:28:39 <shachaf> D-modules were the original tanebvention.
10:29:00 <shachaf> Your name is right there on the Wikipedia page.
10:33:15 <Taneb> shachaf, that was a long time ago, I'm very rusty
10:33:43 <shachaf> oldneb
10:33:56 <shachaf> Taneb: are you interested in the lentil stew i made in the pressure cooker today
10:34:32 <int-e> this reminds me that I wanted to understand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_ring a while ago...
10:34:52 <int-e> (well, the concept, not necessarily the wikipedia page)
10:35:04 <shachaf> what about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_ring
10:35:39 <int-e> No I wasn't reminded of that at all until you brought it up.
10:36:17 <int-e> webrings were kind of cute
10:36:37 <shachaf> Oh, this seems interesting.
10:37:14 <shachaf> I didn't know people talked about "local" behavior in purely algebraic structures like rings.
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11:03:03 <shachaf> Say y=sin(x). Then d^2y/dy^2 = -tan(x)/cos(x)?
11:03:16 <shachaf> I'm going to sleep.
11:19:05 <\oren\> http://orenwatson.be/hoi4uk.PNG
11:19:24 <\oren\> I think the uk has done well foer itself this time
11:19:41 <Taneb> Very united
11:20:28 <Taneb> I never got the hang of HOI4
11:20:40 <\oren\> the trick is to use lots of nukes I find
11:21:00 <\oren\> annihilate anything even resembling industry
11:21:08 <Taneb> Historically only two were used
11:21:55 <\oren\> I used uh... well, basically several on every city in continental europe...
11:22:18 <Taneb> Could you use strategic bombing instead?
11:22:36 <\oren\> you can
11:22:48 <\oren\> but I used nuclear ballistic missiles
11:23:02 <Taneb> That's a bit of a nuclear option, so to speak
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11:23:30 <\oren\> I also used them to soften up the maginot line for my advance into germany
11:25:01 <\oren\> hoi4 doesn't seem to model the problems resulting from driving a tank into a fallout zone mere hours after the nuke was used
11:25:25 <\oren\> not very realistic
11:25:31 <Taneb> I suspect that if it did you'd be playing this somewhat differently
11:25:52 <Taneb> Or at least not telling your tank drivers everything
11:28:10 <\oren\> Ooh, with all this territory, I can create various countries with stupid borders, causing hilarous problems.
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11:28:38 <Taneb> Just like the UK did in real life!
11:28:50 <Taneb> (who the hell thought East Pakistan was a good idea)
11:28:56 -!- Deepfriedice has left.
11:30:19 <Taneb> (and whatever happened in the middle east)
11:30:29 <Taneb> My best game of HOI4 I think I was playing as Iran
11:30:39 <\oren\> I creared west germany. but its capital and only major city is Arad
11:31:03 <Taneb> I went fascist and took most of the middle east that wasn't British or French
11:32:33 <Taneb> Then I ended up at war with the Soviet Union and realised not having manpower could be an issue
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11:37:35 <\oren\> I know what I'll do. I'll try to fill up every building slot in my giant territory, then create a new set of european countries
11:37:54 <\oren\> then nuke the USA
11:39:52 <boily> he\\oren\.
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11:51:20 <\oren\> boily: Hi
11:51:39 <\oren\> http://orenwatson.be/hoi4uk.PNG <-- here's where I'm at now
11:55:19 <boily> that's a very big UK...
11:57:24 <\oren\> I may try to make it bigger by killing the USA
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12:02:52 <FireFly> United Kingdoms of Eurasia-Africa
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12:37:17 <izalove> i have 32 bytes. what's the best way rotate them right by 123?
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12:53:09 <myname> ror rax, 123
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13:42:25 <myname> how do i celebrate the day i will be able to breath through my nose again?
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14:18:09 <moonythedwarf> Boo
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14:49:36 <oerjan> @tell shachaf <shachaf> oerjan: whoa whoa whoa, did you slwd your own wisdom entry? <-- see `? overlord hth
14:49:36 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
14:55:37 <moonythedwarf> `? overlord
14:55:40 <HackEgo> Evil overlords do evil acts like taking over the world, kicking puppies, and changing their own wisdom entries.
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15:00:26 <moonythedwarf> `? lambdabot
15:00:27 <HackEgo> lambdabot is a fully functional bot. just don't ask about @src.
15:00:32 <moonythedwarf> @src
15:00:32 <lambdabot> src <id>. Display the implementation of a standard function
15:00:36 <moonythedwarf> @src 1
15:00:37 <lambdabot> Source not found. My mind is going. I can feel it.
15:00:41 <moonythedwarf> @src list
15:00:41 <lambdabot> Source not found.
15:00:45 <moonythedwarf> @src 2
15:00:45 <lambdabot> Source not found. Your mind just hasn't been the same since the electro-shock, has it?
15:00:49 <moonythedwarf> @src 3
15:00:49 <lambdabot> Source not found. You untyped fool!
15:00:52 <moonythedwarf> @src 4
15:00:52 <lambdabot> Source not found. BOB says: You seem to have forgotten your passwd, enter another!
15:00:57 <moonythedwarf> wat
15:01:04 <moonythedwarf> @src 4
15:01:05 <lambdabot> Source not found. Abort, Retry, Panic?
15:01:06 <moonythedwarf> @src 4
15:01:06 <lambdabot> Source not found. Listen, broccoli brains, I don't have time to listen to this trash.
15:01:10 <moonythedwarf> @src 4
15:01:10 <lambdabot> Source not found. My brain just exploded
15:01:11 <moonythedwarf> @src 4
15:01:11 <lambdabot> Source not found. Just what do you think you're doing Dave?
15:01:13 <moonythedwarf> @src 4
15:01:13 <lambdabot> Source not found. And you call yourself a Rocket Scientist!
15:01:15 <moonythedwarf> @src 4
15:01:15 <lambdabot> Source not found. Do you think like you type?
15:01:17 <moonythedwarf> @src 4
15:01:17 <lambdabot> Source not found. :(
15:01:18 <oerjan> why would you expect number literals to have sources
15:01:23 <moonythedwarf> Dunno
15:01:35 <moonythedwarf> @src >
15:01:35 <lambdabot> x > y = case compare x y of
15:01:35 <lambdabot> GT -> True
15:01:35 <lambdabot> _ -> False
15:01:59 <moonythedwarf> oh thats for haskell things. ok
15:02:11 <oerjan> also, a certain fake einstein quote comes to mind.
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15:05:27 <oerjan> hm, well actually lambdabot _did_ respond differently.
15:05:41 <oerjan> `quote insane
15:05:44 <HackEgo> 122) <fungot> pikhq: it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some idiot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?" \ 397) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and
15:05:52 <oerjan> `quote 397
15:05:55 <HackEgo> 397) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [...] <Taneb> You've just gave me a different result [...] <fizzie> It's always insane to expect different results, even when it's likely to occur.
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15:28:21 <izalove> myname: 32 bytes
15:39:05 <myname> eax
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15:44:02 <izalove> my eax isn't that large <.<
15:45:07 <int-e> izalove: try xmm0
16:04:42 <myname> izalove: how is your rax too large and your eax not large enough?
16:05:03 <izalove> rax isn't too large -.-
16:05:13 <myname> huh
16:05:23 <izalove> 32 >>bytes<<
16:05:32 <myname> ah m(
16:05:38 <Taneb> 256 bits
16:07:00 <Taneb> Would that I knew x86 to help :(
16:07:15 <int-e> right, I should've suggested ymm0
16:08:15 <int-e> oh and they have zmmi as well... what will they use for 1024 bit registers?
16:08:35 <Taneb> @djinn ((a -> b) -> c) -> a -> b -> c
16:08:36 <lambdabot> f a _ b = a (\ _ -> b)
16:08:55 <izalove> int-e: ammi
16:08:58 <FireFly> int-e: wmmi?
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16:09:07 <FireFly> following the x,y,z,w convention for 4D coordinates
16:09:15 <int-e> > succ 'z'
16:09:17 <lambdabot> '{'
16:09:26 <izalove> {mmi ok
16:09:43 <FireFly> |mmi }mmi ~mmi DELmmi
16:12:17 <myname> interesting... i cannot smell yet but i can somehow "taste" that the tissues i use have some kind of balsam herbs in them
16:14:26 * moonythedwarf is still trying to figure out how to make and present proof of turing completeness for gravbox (https://esolangs.org/wiki/Gravbox)
16:15:14 <myname> you should put urls in <> rather than ()
16:15:20 <moonythedwarf> kk
16:15:43 <izalove> template your urls
16:16:19 <myname> x> is the official(tm) way to do that
16:16:36 <myname> most software recognizes that and does not make the > as part of the link
16:16:52 <Taneb> @djinn a -> (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> c
16:16:52 <lambdabot> f a b c = b (c a)
16:16:55 <myname> the ) however will be made part of the link somewhere
16:16:56 <moonythedwarf> oerjan suggusted fractran, but managing the value might be a issue, any better lanugage to use to prove turing completeness?
16:17:52 <moonythedwarf> <https://esolangs.org/wiki/Gravbox> <<< there
16:17:59 <oerjan> what's hard about managing the value, just keep it on top of the stack
16:18:18 <moonythedwarf> oh true enough. ais was confusing me there
16:19:20 <oerjan> ais idea is if you want to avoid bignums
16:19:59 <moonythedwarf> ah
16:20:22 <moonythedwarf> well i _dont_ want to. *me goes off to translatea fractran program to gravbox
16:21:43 <int-e> what happens on division by 0?
16:22:01 <oerjan> shouldn't be an issue with a normal fractran program
16:22:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gravbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49829&oldid=49822 * Moon * (+103) Minor instruction change
16:22:33 <moonythedwarf> int-e: depends on interp sadly, most likely a error
16:23:44 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: that's not minor, now you have a full queue i think
16:24:30 <oerjan> unless you don't actually remove the original second to bottom, in which case it just became useless.
16:25:07 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: also, this will be much more awkward to use when you _do_ want to manipulate as a stack.
16:26:18 <oerjan> also that phrasing is pretty confusing.
16:26:36 <int-e> speaking of confusing phrasing, what does "divide from" mean?
16:27:33 <oerjan> yeah there are also plenty of commands that don't say whether they delete their arguments
16:27:56 <oerjan> although it would be pretty awkward if they didn't
16:29:20 * oerjan recommends forthy stack notation. see e.g. Underload or Glass pages.
16:30:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gravbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49830&oldid=49829 * Moon * (-106)
16:32:08 <int-e> so basically you have *one* scratch register now
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16:33:28 <oerjan> looks like it.
16:34:10 <int-e> now if we could somehow pop a value without any other effect that could be used to swap the top two elements of the stack, hmm
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16:34:29 <oerjan> 0*+ does that
16:34:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gravbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49831&oldid=49830 * Moon * (+3)
16:35:13 <oerjan> int-e: ^
16:35:17 <int-e> ah. so :0*+:^:
16:35:43 <oerjan> oh actually there's a % command
16:35:46 <int-e> oh now it's back.
16:36:03 <int-e> ah. so :%:^: then
16:36:14 <int-e> (but : has just changed once again)
16:36:43 <moonythedwarf> oerjan: you pointed out a way for me to cut out % :P now its gone because you pointed out a alternative, or should i keep it
16:36:51 <moonythedwarf> because 0*+ makes it into a wimpmode
16:37:04 <myname> you don't have to be as minimal as possible
16:37:11 <moonythedwarf> true enough.
16:37:19 <moonythedwarf> afk
16:37:41 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: well technically 0*+ only works if there's at least two stack elements to start with
16:38:32 <int-e> but in the context where one treats the bottom element of the stack as a scratch register that's true already, so it was perfectly in line with what I needed
16:38:44 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: also, int-e pointed out how to implement the top 2 swap using the top and bottom swap
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16:38:53 <int-e> or wanted... I don't really need any of this.
16:39:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gravbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49832&oldid=49831 * Moon * (-3) Reverted
16:41:15 <oerjan> int-e: i don't think your :0*+:^: can be right because it deletes the bottom of the stack
16:41:38 <int-e> oerjan: it's a scratch register
16:41:45 <int-e> :-P
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16:42:24 <int-e> (My idea was to just not use the bottom of the stack for anything besides temporary storage.)
16:42:47 <oerjan> ok
16:43:11 <int-e> but yes, I could've mentioned that.
17:12:45 <moonythedwarf> back
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21:04:21 <zzo38> In the rule update bulletin for Magic: the Gathering, they mention that the first card that created any tokens did use the term "create", although they changed it and now they changed it back to "create".
21:05:25 <zzo38> ?messages-loud
21:05:25 <lambdabot> boily asked 4d 19h 58m 4s ago: hezzo38. are you unprovable?
21:05:26 <lambdabot> wob_jonas said 4d 59m 1s ago: You know that Agner Fog's calling conventions manual http://www.agner.org/optimize/#manual_call_conv describes most of the details of the schemes used by popular C++
21:05:26 <lambdabot> compilers, right? In theory that allows you to call C++ functions, but \
21:05:26 <lambdabot> wob_jonas said 4d 58m 43s ago: it doesn't allow you to access a lot of structures defined by the C++ standard library, because the ABI for that is decided not by the mangling, but by the struct
21:05:26 <lambdabot> declarations, inline function definitions, and other declarations and macro definitions in the headers, and Agner's manual doesn't describe that because it would be almost imp
21:05:27 <lambdabot> shachaf said 3d 9h 32m 40s ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_of_a_function#Higher-order_differentials
21:06:04 <shachaf> zzo38: As that page points out, d^2y/dx^2 = d(dy/dx)/dx + (dy/dx) d^2x/dx^2
21:06:50 <shachaf> Or just d^2y = d(dy/dx) dx + (dy/dx) d^2x
21:06:53 <shachaf> Or something.
21:07:55 <zzo38> Yes I did read that now
21:09:02 <shachaf> Do you like that?
21:09:27 <zzo38> Yes, OK now I can understand better
21:12:11 <shachaf> You can?
21:12:24 <shachaf> How can you tell whether d^2x = 0?
21:12:35 <shachaf> Is (dy/dx)^2 = (dy^2/dx^2)?
21:13:21 <shachaf> Say d^2x = 0. Then (d^2y/dx^2)/((dy/dx)^2) = (d^2y/dx^2)/(dy^2/dx^2) = d^2y/dy^2?
21:13:49 <shachaf> If y = f(x), then d^2y/dy^2 would be f''(x)/f'(x)^2?
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22:56:42 <boily> `wisdom
22:56:51 <HackEgo> obell//The obell is what we ring each time a new strip of the o webcomic is published.
22:58:08 <zzo38> When at library recently I have read book about GURPS; there is a lot of stuff there, but some things it doesn't seems to say such as about defining a group of powers that share the number of limited use per day, or limited number of uses per day of an attack that only expends a usage if the attack hits, or for an advantage or disadvantage to enable, disable, or alter another advantage or disadvantage
22:58:23 <shachaf> `learn OL stands for Original Lyrics. A person who sings songs unmodified is called an OList.
22:58:29 <HackEgo> Learned 'ol': OL stands for Original Lyrics. A person who sings songs unmodified is called an OList.
22:59:20 <boily> I like GURPS. it has Montréal as a city-state ^^
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23:39:28 <oerjan> `date
23:39:30 <HackEgo> Fri Sep 30 22:39:17 UTC 2016
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23:40:38 <shachaf> The Year of Our Lord Two Thousand Sixteen
23:41:01 <oerjan> shachaf: i am eagerly looking forward to my time of lordship hth
23:41:20 <shachaf> that would be The Year of Our Overlord
23:41:29 <oerjan> `? oerjan
23:41:31 <HackEgo> Your mysterious weevil bulgarian quack octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl and passion fruit. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
23:41:37 <oerjan> shachaf: just the month, for now.
23:41:54 <shachaf> oh, right
23:42:04 <shachaf> The Month of Our Lord October
23:42:12 <shachaf> `? password of the month
23:42:13 <HackEgo> password of the month? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:42:19 <shachaf> `? password
23:42:22 <HackEgo> The password of the month is au cœur de septembre
23:42:27 <oerjan> PRAY THAT I DON'T MAKE IT A RED ONE
23:42:40 <int-e> red?
23:42:47 <shachaf> a red one
23:42:53 <int-e> by all means go ahead...
23:43:02 <oerjan> shachaf: changing it before the month starts by HackEgo's time is scow, of course.
23:43:08 <shachaf> agreed
23:43:14 <int-e> it'll just make me even more glad that I'm filtering colors.
23:43:53 <shachaf> `learn The password of the month is johansen
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23:46:28 <int-e> hmm, what now?
23:46:31 <oerjan> `learn_append int-e Hen gillar inte färger.
23:46:35 <HackEgo> Learned 'int-e': int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger.
23:47:19 * oerjan is pleased to have spelled that correctly before checking
23:47:42 <int-e> hmm, "he does not approve of colors"?
23:47:53 <int-e> or just "like"?
23:48:48 <shachaf> Hen kommer att spränga solen?
23:48:49 <oerjan> mostly the latter
23:49:09 <shachaf> heute die Welt, morgen das Sonnensystem
23:49:22 <int-e> `? password
23:49:24 <HackEgo> The password of the month is au cœur de septembre
23:50:10 <int-e> `cwlprits password
23:50:18 <HackEgo> fizzie evilipse oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan gamemanj int-e oerjan int-e oerjan mroman oerjan oerjan oerjan mroman_
23:51:22 <oerjan> i was not aware of the approve meaning. i have a hunch it might be archaic or very formal. any swedes who can tell?
23:51:30 <hppavilion[1]> What would a binary absolute value be like...
23:51:35 <hppavilion[1]> Is there anything even remotely like that?
23:51:42 <shachaf> The same as the regular one.
23:51:44 <hppavilion[1]> (binary as in arity, not as in base)
23:52:19 <oerjan> sounds unintuitive.
23:52:54 <shachaf> So you mean dyadic rather than monadic.
23:52:57 <oerjan> although if you want a real number result, that's just a "norm".
23:52:59 <hppavilion[1]> Yes
23:53:10 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It does, but if there's anything remotely like it it'd be nice.
23:53:44 <oerjan> then you would interpret the two arguments as a point in the plane.
23:54:19 <oerjan> euclidean norm is pretty common, and the same as complex absolute value.
23:54:26 <myname> Gonwild is a place for closed, Euclidean Geometric shapes to exchange their nth terms for karma; showing off their edges in a comfortable environment without pressure.
23:54:29 <myname> lmao
23:54:43 <hppavilion[1]> lmabo
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23:56:19 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose it could be a sort of... relative value? a||b is the distance of a from b without sign?
23:56:32 <hppavilion[1]> (making |a| equal to a||0)
23:56:42 <hppavilion[1]> "relative" doesn't sound right though...
23:56:47 <shachaf> just check what apl does
23:57:25 <hppavilion[1]> Good point...
23:57:39 <shachaf> APL defines ∣B to be absolute value, and A∣B to be residue: B modulo A
23:58:07 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well that's just abs(b-a)
23:58:21 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Well yea
23:58:22 <hppavilion[1]> *yes
23:58:28 <boily> olsner: hellolsner. are you the Only Swede?
23:58:35 <oerjan> helloily
23:58:39 <boily> hellørjan.
23:58:39 <hppavilion[1]> It doesn't matter how trivial of a difference it is; a-b is just a+(-b)
23:58:42 <hppavilion[1]> ahoily
23:58:46 <boily> hppavellon[1].
23:58:51 <oerjan> there's also FireFly
23:58:58 <int-e> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/16.03.14 has context for the sun thing (13:51:25 ff.)
23:59:01 <hppavilion[1]> (Though whether a-b or -n came first is debatable...)
23:59:05 <boily> Firellofly. are you Both Swede?
23:59:11 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: what about FireFly?
23:59:15 <int-e> (I had to remind myself)
23:59:22 <FireFly> I think so
23:59:25 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: he's doing a lot of sweding
23:59:29 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
23:59:34 <hppavilion[1]> Right
23:59:47 <FireFly> oerjan: how sweed of me?
23:59:57 <oerjan> FireFly: do you know if the "approve of" meaning of "gilla" is used in ordinary swedish?
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