←2016-09-30 2016-10-01 2016-10-02→ ↑2016 ↑all
00:00:28 <FireFly> Well, 'like' would be a better translation I think, but sure
00:00:34 <hppavilion[1]> What is the minimum number of symbols (with minimalist rules) required to- in an unambiguous way- express all of traditional algebra?
00:00:54 <FireFly> oerjan: it's the go-to word for that, yes
00:01:07 <int-e> I also see that shachaf repeated himself, but with correct grammar this time.
00:01:11 <hppavilion[1]> a+b can be expressed as a-(-b), but to reduce rules we can do a-(0-b)
00:01:22 <shachaf> int-e: Look. Last time I was unsure of myself.
00:01:33 <shachaf> int-e: I looked it up on the Internet and I found a version with incorrect grammar.
00:01:46 <int-e> shachaf: Yes, I recall, vaguely.
00:02:28 <hppavilion[1]> In APL, ?B is roll B (choose an integer at random from the first B integers (nevermind that "first k integers" makes no sense)
00:02:44 <oerjan> FireFly: good. the wiktionary example seemed rather archaic ("Av konungen gillad och stadfäst.")
00:02:54 <FireFly> Heh
00:02:56 <boily> hppavilion[1]: of course it makes sense. they are the first k integers.
00:03:06 <shachaf> That's an out of context quote.
00:03:07 <hppavilion[1]> boily: what's the first integer?
00:03:08 <shachaf> http://microapl.com/apl_help/ch_020_020_170.htm
00:03:18 <shachaf> "Generates numbers chosen at random from the series of the first N integers which start at the index origin (⎕IO)"
00:03:32 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, it has an index origin. OK.
00:03:40 <FireFly> Yes
00:03:46 <FireFly> One of APL's ugly quirks
00:03:48 <hppavilion[1]> I expected A?B to be choosing the first B integers, minus the first A
00:04:11 <hppavilion[1]> Except A?B is basically just an array of ?B run A times
00:04:28 <boily> hppavilion[1]: -9223372036854775808 hth
00:04:43 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: yes...that is a lot more useful in an APL context than what you suggested
00:04:48 <hppavilion[1]> ...fair enough, can't think of any smaller integers
00:04:48 <int-e> `unidecode
00:04:49 <HackEgo> No output.
00:05:17 <hppavilion[1]> (I figured it COULD be ordering it as [0, 1, -1, 2, -2, 3, -3, ...], but I doubted it)
00:06:19 <int-e> oh it appears that shachaf's client put a color reset code before that `learn earlier
00:06:31 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, ⌈B is the smallest integer ≥ B, ⌊B is the greatest integer ≤ B
00:06:32 <FireFly> for "the first B integers, minus the first A" you'd probably do A+?B-A
00:06:44 <shachaf> int-e: Yes. It wasn't a serious `learn.
00:06:51 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: Yes, I figured
00:07:20 <hppavilion[1]> A⌈B is the greater, A⌊B is the lesser
00:07:25 <oerjan> int-e: SPOILER
00:07:27 <hppavilion[1]> What's the function for round?
00:07:30 <FireFly> the notation ⌈x⌉/⌊x⌋ for ceiling/floor originated in A Programming Language
00:07:52 <int-e> oerjan: I was puzzled!
00:07:58 <FireFly> as in, the book, not the later programming language that followed from the notation
00:07:59 <int-e> (sorry...)
00:08:57 <int-e> ...
00:09:15 <oerjan> int-e: it's particularly insidious because it's one of the characters that doesn't get copied in irssi...
00:09:42 <int-e> this one?
00:09:44 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: I'm more familiar with J than APL, but AFAIK it doesn't have a 'round' primitive; you'd have to implement it in terms of ceil/floor
00:10:05 <hppavilion[1]> APL would've been more interesting with 3 functions for every operator *; A*, *B, and A*B
00:10:15 <int-e> no, this one.
00:10:21 <oerjan> int-e> this one?
00:10:44 <oerjan> sorry, i got a newline on the end
00:10:55 <hppavilion[1]> OK, but... how? How do you get the fractional- wait, floor(x) if abs(x)-floor(abs(x)) < 0.5 else ceil(x). Easy.
00:11:06 <int-e> Counting to 15 is hard.
00:11:16 <int-e> `confuse oerjan
00:11:39 <oerjan> my browser doesn't show it in the logs either, so i have to paste it into irssi, and _then_ i can see on my own editing line
00:11:53 <oerjan> *it on
00:11:54 -!- Caesura has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:11:57 <hppavilion[1]> (ceil(-0.5) = 0, right? I assume so, but I can see it being defined as -1 just as easily, and really being better that way)
00:12:08 <int-e> my browser shows a box with 000F in it there, hmm.
00:12:18 <int-e> maybe I lack the right fonts to make it invisible.
00:12:19 <hppavilion[1]> (If we define ceil(-0.5) = -1, then ceil(x) = -ceil(-x)
00:12:21 <hppavilion[1]> )
00:12:28 <oerjan> i suppose i can probably see it in vim too
00:12:59 <int-e> oerjan: wait, windows, which browser?
00:13:19 <hppavilion[1]> ⍋B is a nice function though...
00:13:25 * int-e is using firefox under linux, that may make a difference
00:13:40 <oerjan> int-e: IE hth
00:14:05 <int-e> oerjan: stop exploding the internet
00:14:45 <int-e> (heh that's almost a plausible typo in qwerty)
00:14:47 * oerjan waves his triceratops bone cane at int-e
00:15:15 <int-e> oerjan: I knew you were living in the stone age :P
00:15:34 <shachaf> I don't mind taxes, but I don't like the idea of paying taxes that I'm not required to pay.
00:15:39 <shachaf> Er, wrong channel.
00:16:26 <int-e> (also I have no clue by how many million years that is off; I blame the Feuerstein family)
00:16:43 <boily> itym the Pierrafeu.
00:16:47 <oerjan> int-e: i'm pretty sure IE _used_ to show those chars, but it changed at some point.
00:17:10 <oerjan> int-e: approx. 65 million years hth
00:17:23 <int-e> I mean the Flintstones.
00:17:29 <oerjan> i think triceratops was there until the end
00:17:29 <int-e> oerjan: thanks
00:18:08 <oerjan> iirc they're just "Flint" in norwegian. or at least used to be.
00:18:12 -!- Caesura has joined.
00:18:18 <oerjan> (no:flint = en:flintstone)
00:18:24 <int-e> boily: that's all french to me
00:19:14 <int-e> (google helped)
00:20:12 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: uhm, you might want to learn APL a bit before having opinions on its parsing rules :P it really wouldn't work well to have both prefix, postfix and infix
00:20:23 <hppavilion[1]> Yes xD
00:20:27 <oerjan> hm apparently flint means the same thing in english. material vs. piece of it?
00:20:35 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: And circumfix and postcircumfix and...
00:20:39 <FireFly> You could come up with such a language probably, but it certainly wouldn't be APL
00:21:02 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: the original APL notation had several circumfix operators (such as floor/ceil, as mentioned)
00:21:04 <ais523> what about interfix?
00:21:14 <ais523> INTERCAL has a few unary operators that go one character inside their argument
00:21:18 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: http://www.jsoftware.com/papers/APL.htm
00:21:29 <FireFly> ais523: heh, that is pretty bizarre
00:21:33 <myname> defining ceil(-0.5) as -1 is pretty stupid
00:21:33 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: What if your argument is one character?
00:21:43 <hppavilion[1]> (I have a feeling the answer is "INTERCAL")
00:21:52 <myname> generally speaking, ceil(x) >= x (hence the name)
00:21:53 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: that can't happen in INTERCAL
00:21:56 <hppavilion[1]> myname: But then -ceil(-x) is equal to ceil(x)
00:22:03 <ais523> all legal operands are at least two characters long
00:22:12 <myname> hppavilion[1]: it's not ceil anymore
00:22:26 <hppavilion[1]> myname: And this satisfies a property that abs(ceil(x)) > abs(x)
00:22:31 <FireFly> it's "round away from zero"
00:22:38 <shachaf> ceil rounds toward +infty
00:22:41 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: Fair enough
00:22:54 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose it could be called "magnitude ceiling" or "absolute ceiling"
00:22:55 <myname> hppavilion[1]: that's not what ceil says
00:22:59 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Well yeah
00:23:01 <shachaf> HireFly
00:23:03 <myname> a ceiling is ebove you, isn't it
00:23:11 <hppavilion[1]> myname: OK
00:23:34 <shachaf> On the other hand, I wanted a name for this operation:
00:23:38 <shachaf> exp . abs . log
00:24:05 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I have a bad habit of thinking of numbers as (sign, magnitude) rather than just value
00:24:07 <shachaf> myname: but if you stand on a mirror, you see the reflection of the ceiling below you
00:24:10 <shachaf> and 0 is like a mirror
00:24:10 <shachaf> hth
00:24:28 <myname> shachaf: you don't?
00:24:30 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:24:41 <shachaf> I don't?
00:24:46 <int-e> next we'll discuss how negative numbers are imaginary...
00:25:06 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I made an operation called sign-preserving power (x^'y) that is equal to sgn(x)*abs(x)^y
00:25:08 <shachaf> If negative numbers are imaginary, what sorts of numbers are complex?
00:25:09 <myname> i never watched in a mirror and saw my foot pointing upwards
00:25:18 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: All of them hth
00:25:20 <myname> ah, zon_
00:25:32 <myname> who would ever step _on_ a mirror
00:25:40 <shachaf> Me?
00:25:45 <oerjan> <myname> a ceiling is ebove you, isn't it <-- technically, ceilings are in the opposite direction on the opposite side of the earth >:)
00:25:48 -!- ais523 has quit.
00:26:17 <myname> oerjan: no, because downwards is not defined that way
00:27:27 <int-e> http://tinyurl.com/z52q2x6 is a bit creepy.
00:27:43 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Downwards is defined in terms of "away from the center of the earth"
00:27:51 <shachaf> What, posting tinyurl.com links in IRC?
00:27:57 <hppavilion[1]> s/away from/towards/
00:28:13 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: and ceilings are generally upwards hth
00:28:21 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yes
00:28:43 <int-e> shachaf: I usually use the plain link but in this case it was long and uninformative?
00:28:47 <hppavilion[1]> ...And if we treat the center of the earth as the origin, that means that someone on the opposite side of the earth is closer to you than their ceiling
00:29:06 <shachaf> I clicked on it but that's only because I know you a bit, I guess.
00:29:07 <oerjan> myname: australians beg to differ
00:29:28 <int-e> http://archivelikeyou.com/files/fullimages/Jeppe_Hein_wallner_12.jpg looks like a mirror one can step on
00:29:59 <shachaf> I'm sure that if you look down into that mirror, you see the ceiling.
00:30:36 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Yes
00:30:36 <shachaf> You know the puzzle about why mirrors flip things left-to-right?
00:30:53 <oerjan> <myname> who would ever step _on_ a mirror <-- now i'm reminded of my visit to the CN tower in toronto... (if that had only been a mirror...)
00:31:21 <hppavilion[1]> OK, mceil(x) is sgn(x)*ceil(abs(x)), ceil(x) is the smallest integer ≥x. Floor is the same (with mfloor and floor)
00:31:37 <int-e> shachaf: I do.
00:31:53 <shachaf> It's a good puzzle.
00:32:01 <myname> hppavilion[1]: what is it good for?
00:32:16 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Statistics, probably
00:39:47 <boily> @tell quintopia QUINTHELLOPIA! I finally got my postcard, 28 days later... (well, 29 considering timezones)
00:39:47 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
00:40:11 <shachaf> `date
00:40:12 <HackEgo> Fri Sep 30 23:40:00 UTC 2016
00:42:15 <boily> lifthrasiirland is so far away...
00:42:35 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is <this service is currently unavailable due to scheduled maintenance>
00:47:22 <int-e> <evil>Oh maybe we should make a bin/learn command to make the illusion perfect.</evil>
00:49:11 -!- Menphis has joined.
00:51:11 <Zarutian> Perhaps you people can answer me avout a punishment device or construct of yore. What is it called that was put around the necks and hands of criminals but was not fixed in any place? Usually made out of sturdy wood.
00:51:40 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: What illusion?
00:51:45 <hppavilion[1]> `? password
00:51:47 <HackEgo> The password of the month is au cœur de septembre
00:51:54 <hppavilion[1]> ...cool
00:52:04 <oerjan> <shachaf> How can you tell whether d^2x = 0? <-- it occurs to me that d is in some sense an _arbitrary_ derivative. so to get d^2 x = 0 you have to select the right one.
00:52:13 <hppavilion[1]> `which learn
00:52:15 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/learn
00:52:22 <hppavilion[1]> `cat /hackenv/bin/learn
00:52:23 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\?[:;,.!?]\? .*//') \ [ -e "wisdom/$topic" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned" \ echo "$1" >"$(echo-p "wisdom/$topic")" \ echo "$verb '$topic': $1"
00:52:31 <hppavilion[1]> `url /hackenv/bin/learn
00:52:34 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/learn
00:54:29 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivation_(differential_algebra)
00:54:43 * Zarutian patiently waits for an answer.
00:55:26 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: ...OK, I give up, hth did that work?
00:57:00 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Maybe `learn should be able to detect a phrase between |vertical bars aka pipes| (after stripping /an?|the/) and use the entire phrase instead of just the first word)
00:57:35 <oerjan> Zarutian: pillory
00:58:00 <Zarutian> oerjan: thanks.
00:58:24 <hppavilion[1]> (so "`learn |John Lenon| was a member of the Beatles." would put "John Lenon was a member of the Beatles." in <wisdom/John Lenon>)
00:58:26 <hppavilion[1]> `? wisdome
00:58:27 <HackEgo> The Wisdome is the place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom.
00:59:11 <oerjan> Zarutian: or hm, not sure about the "not fixed in any place" part. although there were many variants of these things...
00:59:24 <boily> hppavilion[1]: nice usage of the «œ».
00:59:26 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn_append wisdome//Strictly speaking, it should be called the "Wissphere".
00:59:31 <HackEgo> Learned 'wisdome': The Wisdome is the place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom. /Strictly speaking, it should be called the "Wissphere".
00:59:36 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I never used œ...
00:59:51 <boily> wait, you didn't...
00:59:59 <hppavilion[1]> It was HackEgo
01:00:26 <Zarutian> oerjan: it fits what I had read in an Alita Battle Angel manga.
01:00:29 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: set the password of the month to <this service is currently unavailable due to scheduled maintenance>, but when I asked it said it was au cœur de septembre
01:00:35 * boily looks shiftily at HackEgo. «T'en sais trop sur les ligatures. C'est louche.»
01:00:39 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose someone might have edited in PM, but...
01:00:44 -!- Caesura has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
01:00:49 <Zarutian> oerjan: couldnt remember what it was called exactly until you said it.
01:00:51 <hppavilion[1]> `culprits wisdom/password
01:00:57 <HackEgo> fizzie evilipse oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan gamemanj int-e oerjan int-e oerjan mroman oerjan oerjan oerjan mroman_
01:01:07 <zzo38> Do you know what is
01:01:14 <hppavilion[1]> `? password of the month
01:01:15 <HackEgo> password of the month? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:01:29 -!- Caesura has joined.
01:01:35 <hppavilion[1]> `unidecode password
01:02:07 <oerjan> Zarutian: there were some other links in that wp article. Cangue is a chinese variant so may fit for a manga...
01:02:35 <hppavilion[1]> `which culprits
01:02:36 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/culprits
01:02:42 <hppavilion[1]> `url /hackenv/bin/culprits
01:02:44 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/culprits
01:02:51 <oerjan> and "shrew's fiddle" was also portable.
01:03:06 <hppavilion[1]> `which hoag
01:03:07 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/hoag
01:03:15 <hppavilion[1]> `url hackenv/bin/hoag
01:03:16 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/hackenv/bin/hoag
01:03:36 <hppavilion[1]> `url /hackenv/bin/hoag
01:03:38 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/hoag
01:04:08 <hppavilion[1]> `where learn
01:04:09 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: where: not found
01:04:20 <hppavilion[1]> Wait...
01:04:42 <hppavilion[1]> `unidecode `learn
01:04:59 <Zarutian> oerjan: well I was thinking more of the thing that looks like the criminal has his/her hands and head through a table plus the document describing their crime.
01:05:28 <hppavilion[1]> `unidecode The
01:06:24 <boily> `wisdom
01:06:27 <HackEgo> taneb//Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
01:06:30 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Do we have a reverse-culprits?
01:06:35 <Zarutian> oerjan: been toying with the idea of using an 'cyberized' version of cangue in an near future sci-fi story.
01:06:50 <hppavilion[1]> `which echo-p
01:06:51 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/echo-p
01:06:59 <hppavilion[1]> `url /hackenv/bin/echo-p
01:07:01 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/echo-p
01:07:05 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: what is that wissphere for?
01:07:06 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
01:07:25 <oerjan> i'm not sure whether i'm missing a reference, or you are
01:07:33 <boily> hppavilion[1]: reverse-culprits? a list of people that make you write wisdom entries?
01:07:41 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: The Wisdome goes underground as well, so it should be called 'wissphere'
01:08:18 -!- heroux has joined.
01:08:23 <hppavilion[1]> boily: No, you enter a username and it returns a list of the last 10 or so files that they edited
01:08:42 <hppavilion[1]> So `reverse-culprits boily would tell me what you've done with HackEgo recently
01:09:33 <boily> I haven't done much recently to HackEgo...
01:09:47 <hppavilion[1]> ...oh my god int-e's `learn was never processed by hackego...
01:09:52 <hppavilion[1]> Oh my god I'm an idiot...
01:10:27 <hppavilion[1]> `` unidecode <int-e> `learn The password of the month is <this service is currently unavailable due to scheduled maintenance> > shr/unidecoded
01:10:28 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
01:10:53 <hppavilion[1]> ``unidecode "<int-e> `learn The password of the month is <this service is currently unavailable due to scheduled maintenance>" > shr/decoded
01:10:54 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `unidecode: not found
01:11:09 <hppavilion[1]> Oh my god
01:11:12 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Do we have a reverse-culprits? <-- i don't think so. seems hard to do efficiently.
01:11:21 <hppavilion[1]> `` unidecode "<int-e> `learn The password of the month is <this service is currently unavailable due to scheduled maintenance>" > shr/decoded
01:11:23 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
01:11:35 <hppavilion[1]> ...FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
01:11:45 <hppavilion[1]> `` foo
01:11:46 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 4: foo: command not found
01:11:52 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> `unidecode `learn <-- hint, it's before the `
01:12:09 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yep, that's what I figured.
01:12:13 <hppavilion[1]> I was checking
01:12:42 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It does seem unefficiable at first, but I figure there could be a way to make Mercurial do it inefficiently for us
01:12:59 <int-e> Zarutian: http://www.pilloryhistory.com/other.html suggests "yoke"
01:13:22 <hppavilion[1]> Like, searching for all things with a description starting with "<$1>" (Do I need to escape that?)
01:14:21 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well yeah, as long as searching all log entries isn't too much.
01:14:32 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yes, that's the problem.
01:14:44 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: also, you don't want to use `` with unidecode
01:15:14 <oerjan> i guess searching in backwards order should work if they've actually edited some
01:15:23 <hppavilion[1]> Probably only search the last ~500 (which is STILL slow, probably) and print the most recent 10 files
01:15:38 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yeah, that's probably what you'd do
01:15:52 <oerjan> `slwd wisdome//s,/,,
01:16:00 <HackEgo> wisdom/wisdome//The Wisdome is the place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom. Strictly speaking, it should be called the "Wissphere".
01:16:21 <int-e> `date
01:16:22 <HackEgo> Sat Oct 1 00:16:10 UTC 2016
01:16:28 <Zarutian> int-e: the idea is that the pillory|cangue|yoke is big enough for passerbys to see the reason why it is around that person neck plus have a loop of something like monofilament wire embedded inside that will behead the criminal if an serious attempt at removal without cryptographic authorization is performed.
01:16:52 <hppavilion[1]> ...wait, what did s,/,, do?
01:16:53 <int-e> Zarutian: you're on your own there
01:17:07 <hppavilion[1]> If there are <10 files, just print all that you find
01:18:24 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, newline. Apparently.
01:18:38 <hppavilion[1]> I guess?
01:18:41 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: removed a / you'd accidentally left there
01:18:44 <hppavilion[1]> Oh
01:19:27 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, I thought le/rn required two slashes...
01:19:34 <oerjan> no, le//rn does
01:19:36 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, no, that's mkx
01:20:02 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I thought le//rn needed you to sacrifice a he-goat to satan though?
01:20:13 <oerjan> no?
01:20:48 <hppavilion[1]> Oh
01:21:06 <hppavilion[1]> fungot: Do you want us to sacrifice a he-goat to satan?
01:21:06 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: they say that some guards' palms can be used to practise throwing stones at things, the big black cobra, and scholars, by edward bulwer-lytton)
01:21:14 <oerjan> they're almost the same, except le//rn requires two // but also allows you to give directories
01:21:27 <oerjan> *-two
01:21:39 <hppavilion[1]> Wiser words have never been spoken, fungot.
01:21:39 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: they say that problem breathing is best known for two things. you'll probably find one on the red marble table in front of him.
01:22:00 <hppavilion[1]> fungot: But what's the other thing?
01:22:01 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: lizard corpses aren't confusing. are you a gentleman? two levels ahead is a powerful artifact. anyone who carries it by half. it was locked. he could stand it no longer, until an unsuspecting creature passes by. it stands two to four feet, by snorri sturluson)
01:22:31 <oerjan> `? password
01:22:33 <HackEgo> The password of the month is au cœur de septembre
01:22:35 <hppavilion[1]> fungot: So problem breathing is best known for whatever's on the red marble table and for lizard corpses?
01:22:35 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: quetzalcoatl: one of the forest." the dear old man beamed upon her, with dried brown limbs like dead wood showing through moldering bandages. " how the wind, the wizard has hired some help. twenty other arms came rippling out.
01:23:00 <hppavilion[1]> ^style
01:23:00 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack* oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:23:00 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is Bierstubë.
01:23:04 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is Bierstubë.
01:23:24 <hppavilion[1]> ^style ic
01:23:24 <fungot> Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual)
01:23:28 <hppavilion[1]> Ooooh
01:23:40 <hppavilion[1]> fungot: Can you intracalate?
01:23:45 <hppavilion[1]> (Is there INTRACAL?)
01:23:47 <hppavilion[1]> Dammit...
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01:24:48 <oerjan> ULFRACAL
01:25:01 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Never heard 'ulfra'?
01:25:09 <hppavilion[1]> (misp. 'ultra'?)
01:25:19 <hppavilion[1]> The number of derivatives of INTERCAL is rather ironic, given that it was designed to have no similarities...
01:25:40 <oerjan> it's a misspelling, but not of ultra.
01:25:56 <hppavilion[1]> INFRA?
01:26:33 <oerjan> i was trying to do INTER:INTRA::INFRA:? but i think i failed
01:27:25 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
01:27:53 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Well, first of all, INTER:INTRA::?:INFRA
01:28:03 <hppavilion[1]> Second, ?=ULTRA
01:28:04 <hppavilion[1]> hth
01:28:19 <hppavilion[1]> (infrared/ultraviolet)
01:28:26 <oerjan> i don't think so. inter isn't to intra what ultra is to infra.
01:28:35 <oerjan> or wait, is it.
01:30:30 <boily> INTER:INTRA::INFER:INFRA ?
01:31:40 <oerjan> `? intercal
01:31:42 <HackEgo> INTERCAL has excellent features for modular program for the enterprise market.
01:32:23 <oerjan> dissonant
01:33:22 <boily> in the future, we'll all be COBOL programmers.
01:34:35 <oerjan> the CABAL will see to it
01:35:14 <hppavilion[1]> infrarnal
01:35:24 <Taneb> COBOL, the language of my ancestors
01:36:11 <hppavilion[1]> I still think #esoteric should create a language JUST reasonable enough that employers will want to make people use it, but out-of-the-ordinary enough that using it is fun (and/or infuriating) for the programmers
01:36:31 <Taneb> Like Java!
01:38:18 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Like anything BUT Java
01:38:41 <hppavilion[1]> Java is bland and generic, with a lot of unnecessary cruft and hyper-formulaic rules
01:40:27 <hppavilion[1]> I'm thinking it will draw on math and FP and LP, but remain imperative enough to be usable
01:40:42 <hppavilion[1]> Curried functions will be the only option, for example
01:41:58 <boily> Java isn't generic. it teases you with false promises, then stabs you in the back with a blunt object.
01:42:54 <boily> remind me to copy one very nice line I wrote just to terrorise a few coworkers next Monday.
01:43:07 <boily> s/copy/copy you/
01:43:57 <hppavilion[1]> OK
01:44:12 <hppavilion[1]> @tell-delay
01:44:12 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
01:44:17 <hppavilion[1]> Darn
01:44:18 <hppavilion[1]> @list
01:44:18 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
01:44:21 <hppavilion[1]> @listmodules
01:44:21 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search
01:44:21 <lambdabot> slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
01:44:35 <hppavilion[1]> @which tell
01:44:35 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
01:44:38 <hppavilion[1]> @where tell
01:44:38 <lambdabot> @help tell
01:44:42 <hppavilion[1]> @help tell
01:44:42 <lambdabot> tell <nick> <message>. When <nick> shows activity, tell them <message>.
01:44:46 <hppavilion[1]> *sigh*
01:45:00 <hppavilion[1]> @module tell
01:45:00 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
01:47:35 <hppavilion[1]> (There wouldn't happen to be any n s.t. log_n(x) = x forall x, would there?)
01:50:55 <boily> 1.
01:51:29 <hppavilion[1]> boily: log?
01:51:33 <boily> log_1.
01:52:01 <hppavilion[1]> 1^x = x?
01:53:08 <hppavilion[1]> log_1(x) = x ∧ x=5 -> 1*1*1*1*1=5
01:53:42 <oerjan> @list tell
01:53:42 <lambdabot> tell provides: tell ask messages messages-loud messages? clear-messages auto-reply auto-reply? clear-auto-reply
01:53:55 <oerjan> hm
01:54:01 <oerjan> @help auto-reply
01:54:01 <lambdabot> auto-reply. Lets lambda-bot auto-reply if someone sends you a message
01:54:14 * oerjan didn't notice that before
01:54:16 <hppavilion[1]> @auto-reply
01:54:16 <lambdabot> No auto-reply message given. Did you mean @clear-auto-reply?
01:54:20 <Jafet> @help! messages?
01:54:20 <lambdabot> messages?. Tells you whether you have any messages
01:55:18 <hppavilion[1]> @ask oerjan You've already set auto-reply, haven't you?
01:55:18 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
01:56:09 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: x*y = log_n(x*y) = log_n x + log_n y = x+y for all x,y hth
01:56:28 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] nope
01:56:28 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] lets you know: haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaands
01:56:28 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
01:56:37 <oerjan> huh
01:56:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Happa * New user account
01:59:05 <boily> oh, a new user! will it be a real person?
02:01:21 <oerjan> well they don't seem to be trying to edit
02:01:52 <oerjan> real or otherwise
02:01:55 <hppavilion[1]> 'Happa'...
02:01:57 * hppavilion[1] is suspicious
02:02:03 <hppavilion[1]> @massages-lud
02:02:03 <lambdabot> oerjan said 5m 35s ago: nope
02:02:08 <hppavilion[1]> @tell oerjan OK
02:02:08 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
02:02:17 <oerjan> @messages-
02:02:17 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 8s ago: OK
02:02:18 <boily> happavalion[1]?
02:02:25 <hppavilion[1]> http://www.xkcd.com/1296/
02:02:43 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Some people I've known IRL have pronounced hppavilion1 as 'hap pavilion one'
02:03:00 <hppavilion[1]> Clearly, the 1 makes an [i] sound, first of all
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02:05:56 <hppavilion[1]> ...wait, how is it even possible to go without the axiom of choice?
02:06:20 <hppavilion[1]> "[AC is] equivalent to the statement that the Cartesian product of a collection of non-empty sets is non-empty."
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02:07:39 <hppavilion[1]> Last time I checked, the cardinality of the union of a collection of nonempty sets is ≥ the cardinality of any of those sets.
02:08:02 <oerjan> so?
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02:08:31 <hppavilion[1]> If you take the Cartesian product of a collection of sets and empty the tuples into a set, I'm pretty sure you get their union
02:09:16 <oerjan> that's equivalent to the axiom of choice hth
02:09:21 <hppavilion[1]> (that is, {('a', 1), ('a', 2), ('a', 3), ('b', 1), ('b', 2), ('b', 3)} -> {'a', 1, 'b', 2, 3})
02:09:40 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yeah, but I don't see any way you can argue with it
02:10:02 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you're assuming there are _any_ tuples in the product to start with.
02:11:23 <oerjan> also it can be proved for a finite number of sets.
02:12:07 <oerjan> to contradict AoC, you need an infinite collection of sets such that you have _no_ way of uniformly selecting an element from one.
02:12:17 <oerjan> *from each
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02:12:48 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, yes
02:12:51 <oerjan> (the individual sets don't have to be infinite, i think.)
02:14:17 <oerjan> there's the famous quip: you need the AoC to select one element from each of an infinite set of pairs of socks, but not from an infinite set of pairs of shoes.
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02:31:10 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I'm watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s86-Z-CbaHA again, and something is bugging me
02:31:29 <hppavilion[1]> The real numbers in the interval <0 -> 1> are uncountable, correct?
02:35:24 <hppavilion[1]> (Maybe I interpreted something e said wrong; I suppose that, perhaps, not all points on the circumference can be expressed as k radians for a finite nonnegative integer k)
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02:42:17 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: yes
02:42:23 <hppavilion[1]> OK...
02:42:37 <hppavilion[1]> Yeah, Banack-Tarski is giving me a serious bad-math smell
02:42:51 <hppavilion[1]> Like, a you-just-broke-the-rules smell
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02:48:27 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh, is |ℝ × ℝ| = ℝ? Just checking
02:48:50 <izalove> yes
02:50:39 <izalove> don't think too much about banach tarski, they're just playing with sets where your idea of volume can't be applied
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03:04:47 <shachaf> `? password
03:04:53 <HackEgo> The password of the month is Bierstubë.
03:04:59 <shachaf> oerjan: I fell asleep for two hours and missed your inlaurdation
03:10:34 <oerjan> `unidecode ℝ × ℝ| = ℝ
03:11:07 <shachaf> oerjan: Right, but isn't the point of all this that it's arbitrary?
03:11:20 <shachaf> If it's not completely arbitrary, what derivatives am I allowed to use?
03:12:55 <shachaf> I don't want to pick a specific derivative. What constraints do I have? I guess I can say "d is a differentiating operator such that d^2x = 0"
03:13:26 <shachaf> But thtne what am I allowed to use it on?
03:15:07 <shachaf> then
03:15:41 <oerjan> you can use it on any function that's differentiable enough times in a neighborhood...
03:32:44 <hppavilion[1]> Proposal: No more % (percent) (proportion multiplied by 100). Henceforth, all values are expressed in perunit (symbol like percent with short lines parallel to the main line instead of circles) (multiply by nothing because there's no actual reason to)
03:34:38 <shachaf> instead of %, use ℅
03:36:00 <izalove> take ℅ something
03:37:07 <oerjan> `unidecode ℅
03:37:09 <HackEgo> ​[U+2105 CARE OF]
03:37:55 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, does the order of slices in a pie chart ever matter? Obviously if you make it like that, we all hate you, but does it matter?
03:39:05 <hppavilion[1]> (And in general, are pie chart slices supposed to scale by area or by curve subtended by angle?)
03:40:28 <zzo38> What I have implemented is by angle.
03:43:26 <hppavilion[1]> Term proposal: Improper Sector
03:43:55 <hppavilion[1]> An improper sector is a sector where the ratio of the central angle to tau radians is greater than 1
03:45:12 <hppavilion[1]> (so, for example, a circle that kind of overshoots; so a sector with central angle of 3pi radians, or a sesquicircle; 1.5 circles)
03:45:43 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: By angle is most natural, but by area is probably more easy-to-understand to the human eye
03:46:04 <hppavilion[1]> (I would recommend having both, with angle as the default but area being a permitted mode)
03:48:36 <zzo38> I thought it might come out the same?
03:50:31 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: No, the area of a circular sector with a radius r and angle theta is (theta*r^2)/2
03:52:23 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the area is proportional to the angle unless you vary the radius (in which case it's not an ordinary pie chart)
03:52:34 <hppavilion[1]> Well yeah
03:52:35 <zzo38> The radius is the same for each slice though
03:52:47 <zzo38> Therefore, it does come out the same.
03:53:02 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: That's either a pielar angle chart or a stupid needlessly stylized pie chart
03:53:26 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm now wondering about elliptical sectors...)
03:54:54 <oerjan> elliptical is tricky, afaiu the correspondence between angle and area isn't even an elementary function...
03:55:24 <oerjan> hm or
03:55:25 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: They are a thing, it looks like; a sector is (theta : angle, radius : distance)
03:55:36 <oerjan> that does seem unlikely, actually.
03:55:55 <hppavilion[1]> An elliptical sector is ((theta1 : angle, theta2 : angle), (r1 : distance, r2 : distance))
03:56:31 <oerjan> it's the arc length that's nonelementary, perhaps.
03:57:03 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Ah, yes, I don't think there's a good way to calculate the circumference of an ellipse other than infinite series
03:57:09 <hppavilion[1]> I once tried to find it
03:58:28 <oerjan> technically that would be the case for a circle too, if someone hadn't declared pi, sin and cos etc. to be "easy"
03:58:59 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Well, pi is at least constant
03:59:27 <oerjan> yeah but you just try to calculate it without using a series somewhere :P
04:00:25 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, there's probably a generalized minor pi-yielding function (not a minor function that yields pi; a function that yields a minor pi) (not to be confused with the Pi Function that's just gamma(x+1)) that calculates the local value of pi for a proportion of the radii
04:00:32 <hppavilion[1]> But I don't even know if we know what it is
04:01:14 <oerjan> wat
04:02:14 <hppavilion[1]> So a unit elliptical (a unit ellipse is has its x-radius equal to 1 and its y-radius equal to some proportion of its x-radius (which clever people might notice is literally just any real number) sector given by theta1 and theta2 is, basically, the area bounded by a line segment from the origin to the circumference of the ellipse at angle theta1, the same to angle theta2, and the part of the ellipse's circumference between the endpoints
04:02:30 <hppavilion[1]> s/\)/))/
04:03:04 * oerjan glazes over
04:05:27 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, so an ellipse is a shape given by point (a, b), point (c, d), and distance k that includes all points (x, y) where sqrt((x-a)^2+(y-b)^2) + sqrt((x-c)^2+(y-d)^2) = k
04:05:29 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently
04:05:32 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh, no you don't
04:05:50 <hppavilion[1]> @ask boily Do you keep a backup mapole in the channel when you aren't here?
04:05:50 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
04:07:08 * oerjan licks icing off his fingers
04:07:42 <hppavilion[1]> Can you have a hyperellipse (ntbcw a superellipse) where there are more than 2 focal points?
04:07:56 <izalove> stahp
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04:09:50 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, the sum of the distances to the focal point is 2*R (R being max(r1, r2))
04:10:01 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: I'm sorry :
04:10:02 <hppavilion[1]> :(
04:10:18 <hppavilion[1]> (This would be easier if we could use pretty math)
04:11:13 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: For any shape there's often multiple useful ways to specify it
04:11:26 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Well yes
04:11:34 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: This was the way relevant to what I was saying
04:12:33 <FreeFull> Yeah, the "Take two points, an ellipse is the locus you get when the sum of distances to the points is equal to a constant" definition is one of the most common
04:12:43 <FreeFull> You can also define an ellipse as a stretched circle
04:13:05 <FreeFull> In which case you have a centre point, a minor radius, and a major radius
04:13:13 <hppavilion[1]> Yes
04:14:46 <hppavilion[1]> OH! I created a symbol for derivatives that made me happy today. You write a special derivative symbol, a number n below it (nth derivative; if you want the 1st derivative then n can be dropped), the variables it's with respect to separated by commas terminated with a colon (if it's just 'all the variables', you can drop this part), then the thing you're derivativing. It took me several hours to realize the special derivative symbol I
04:14:47 <hppavilion[1]> used was basically just the euro sign xD
04:16:13 <hppavilion[1]> (it only had one horizontal stroke though. It might have been something else, really, but I don't remember any other similar-looking symbols. It was intended to look like a capital ε- basically a larger ϵ, I suppose- but not just an E)
04:16:24 <FreeFull> f(x) = x^2 f€_1(x) = 2x ??
04:16:30 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Yep, centrepoint is what I use for fonts
04:17:13 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: More like €_1 f(x), but the _1 could be dropped too because it's the default
04:17:23 <hppavilion[1]> (the colon part is for incomplete derivatives)
04:17:30 <FreeFull> I wonder if four points on the circumference are enough to uniquely specify any ellipse
04:17:49 <FreeFull> Three definitely aren't enough
04:18:00 <izalove> 5 are
04:18:01 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: It depends on whether any happen to be the same
04:18:09 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: 5 are enough for ANY conic section
04:18:13 <izalove> yeah
04:18:19 <hppavilion[1]> Which is exactly what you meant...
04:18:24 <izalove> can't go below that
04:18:25 <FreeFull> For 5 I can think of arrangements that don't give a valid ellipse
04:18:37 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: No, you can uniquely specify any circle with 2 points
04:18:52 <izalove> not if the points lie on the circumference
04:18:56 <oerjan> FreeFull: right, but you cannot expect less than 5, still
04:19:06 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Ah, yes, forgot about that
04:19:11 <FreeFull> You can uniquely determine a circle with 3 points on the circumference
04:19:17 <hppavilion[1]> But 3 on the circumference, probably
04:19:18 <oerjan> because ellipses are like an open subset of all conics
04:19:20 <izalove> hppavilion[1]: by the same reasoning you can specify any ellipse with 3 points
04:19:28 <hppavilion[1]> You can uniquely specify any conic section with at MOST 5 points, and that's where it might not be an ellipse
04:19:31 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: How so?
04:19:43 <shachaf> how many points do you need to specify an eclipse?
04:19:46 <izalove> foci + distance
04:20:10 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Earth, moon, sun, several vectors of speed, probably some mass.
04:20:25 <FreeFull> Yeah, I specifically was thinking of points on the circumference
04:20:37 <FreeFull> Hmm, let's consider the vertices of a square
04:20:43 <FreeFull> Can we fit more than one ellipse to those?
04:20:50 <hppavilion[1]> In my head the 3 points on the circumference of a circle are arranged in an equilateral triangle; is this enough?
04:20:59 <FreeFull> I think four points aren't enough
04:21:08 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Yes, one is the other rotated 90 degrees
04:21:29 <izalove> hppavilion[1]: 3 points are enough for a circumference
04:21:29 <hppavilion[1]> (which is equivalent to swapping major and minor ~arcana~ radii)
04:21:34 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Yes
04:21:44 <hppavilion[1]> Which is what I said, I thought
04:21:52 <hppavilion[1]> The second time
04:21:54 <izalove> they don't have to be an equilateral triangle
04:22:03 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Well yes, but they happened to be internally
04:22:12 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: if you allow choosing _special_ points on the circle, then obviously 2 are enough.
04:22:14 <hppavilion[1]> You could obviously move htem
04:22:20 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yes, of course
04:22:54 <hppavilion[1]> If you allow the point to be anywhere, you can probably do it with 1
04:22:55 <hppavilion[1]> Somehow
04:23:12 <hppavilion[1]> I guess as |R^3?
04:23:15 <hppavilion[1]> (x, y, r)
04:23:53 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, the symbol looks more like Є
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04:26:54 <FreeFull> For a circle you just need the diameter
04:27:05 <FreeFull> For an ellipse a diameter and a radius
04:27:55 <hppavilion[1]> Yes
04:28:28 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: But if you can use arbitrary points that may not even have significance to it, you can do it with a single point in 1D
04:29:04 <FreeFull> That depends on if you're allowed to depend on the point's coordinates
04:29:10 <FreeFull> You might not be given coordinates at all
04:29:11 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Ah, yes
04:29:24 <hppavilion[1]> An ellipse centred at (x, y) with radius r (all are real numbers) can be represented by literally just lacing the bits if you have to
04:29:25 <\oren\> I started a new game as france. I created my own alliance with the czechoslovakia, yugoslavia, and romania.
04:29:50 <FreeFull> \oren\: But not with Poland?
04:30:02 <\oren\> When Germany demanded the sudetenland, I responded by invading the rhineland
04:30:47 <\oren\> By the time hitler had decided to go around the maginot line through belgium I already took franfurt, koln and essen
04:31:28 <\oren\> I think I can probably win world war two by 1940
04:32:26 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Why don't you just start the game half a century earlier and kill baby Hitler?
04:32:28 <hppavilion[1]> Problem solved
04:32:41 <\oren\> the czechs just took vienna. get rekt hitler
04:32:50 <hppavilion[1]> (Sure, you still have to deal with WWI...)
04:34:07 <\oren\> oh and they took breslau in the north
04:34:30 <\oren\> it's 1938 only. germany hasn't done anything with poland yet
04:34:44 <\oren\> so poland won't join my faction
04:37:59 <FreeFull> \oren\: Napoleon briefly recreated Poland as its own state back when Poland was partitioned between other countries
04:38:26 <FreeFull> But when the napoleonic wars failed, Poland ended up getting partitioned again
04:39:34 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/GetRektHitler.PNG
04:40:48 <FreeFull> So yeah, historically real Poland has had good ties with France
04:40:49 <\oren\> how's that for chease eating surrender monekys!?!
04:40:57 <FreeFull> And horrible luck with Germany and Russia
04:41:39 <\oren\> poland isn't even in the war though. hitler hasn't had enough time because I invaded him instead of gving him the sudetenland
04:42:16 <\oren\> so poland is just chilling, and for some reason he invaded the baltics and annexed them
04:43:03 <\oren\> so on the side, poland curbstomped latvia and lithuania while I was preparing to invade germnay
04:44:22 <FreeFull> Ok
04:44:29 <FreeFull> What will you do about Russia?
04:45:37 <\oren\> no idea. hopefully I can get turkey or poland in my faction so I can have a wider front than just romania
04:46:15 <\oren\> if it's just romania, russia might crush me with sheer numbers of infantry
04:48:52 <\oren\> with a wide front, I can have my cavalry and jeeps run and surround enemy forces quicker than you can say une deux tres
04:49:30 <hppavilion[1]> ...Yep, 'murica is screwed
04:49:44 <hppavilion[1]> Imma start a new political party, I guess.
04:50:52 <\oren\> czech forces are untering dresden
04:51:20 <\oren\> french forces have reached the coast of the nroth sea
04:52:01 -!- Elronnd has left.
04:52:23 <hppavilion[1]> Gary Johnson's position on climate change (I swear, this is 1.0 perunit real): The earth is getting warmer and it's man-made. But the sun will explode in several billion years and destroy the planet anyway, and what's the difference between ending all life on earth in ~200 years vs. several billion? Really?
04:56:36 <\oren\> gary johnson also doesn't know where aleppo is, and can't name a foreign leader he likes
04:57:10 <\oren\> even trump can do both those things. admittedly he likes putin, but hey at least it's an answer
04:57:49 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Yeah
04:58:13 <hppavilion[1]> Being able to say 'Putin' better than not knowing about Putin
04:58:36 <hppavilion[1]> (AA
04:58:41 <hppavilion[1]> Whoops
04:59:15 <\oren\> wait, hitler made the molotov ribbentop pact NOW?!?! with french tanks in nuremberg?
04:59:32 <\oren\> if poland enters the war he's dead for sure
04:59:42 <hppavilion[1]> Admittedly, only about 0.001 perunit of Americans knew about Aleppo until that happened, but OTOH, 0.001 perunit of americans are RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT
04:59:57 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Has he started holocausting yet?
05:00:23 <\oren\> not sure.
05:01:21 <\oren\> they don't model that in the game so you don't feel as much an asshole if you play as hitler
05:01:50 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: ...but that's probably the only reason I'd play as Hitler in the first place
05:01:59 <hppavilion[1]> Like, so I can choose who does and doesn't die
05:02:08 <hppavilion[1]> (Isn't the point of Hitler that he's an asshole?)
05:04:17 <\oren\> in itlay I'v taken milan and genoa now.
05:05:10 <\oren\> oh, and libya is now all mine
05:05:24 <hppavilion[1]> Protip: When siphoning someone else's internet, don't risk them putting a password on their wifi; set the admin password yourself
05:05:28 <\oren\> time to go wouth and liberate ethiopia
05:07:04 <\oren\> speakign of aleppo, france owned aleppo at the time of world war 2
05:07:18 <\oren\> along with all of syria
05:07:34 <\oren\> if they had kept it none of this bullshit would have happened
05:15:13 <FreeFull> Trump elected as president. USA becomes Russia 2
05:17:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49833&oldid=49760 * Happa * (+289) /* Introductions */
05:18:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Happa]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49834 * Happa * (+110) Created page with "An esoteric language developer. Created: * [[Refunge]] (Some others will be added as I create pages for them)"
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05:28:30 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: As long as you're in Syria, could you destroy Aleppo?
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05:34:29 <izalove> https://arin.ga/wugdyM/raw someone please compile this on their machine and tell me the results
05:34:58 <izalove> gcc rot256.c; ./a.out < /dev/zero 2>/dev/null
05:35:32 <izalove> takes 20s to run on a crappy laptop
05:37:17 <zzo38> Some more Magic: the Gathering cards I made up now is the cycle of five monocolor Elder Wizards: John Whistlet, Xlif Barpy, Margia Hazmaad, Zonak Masp, Garof Asengia.
05:39:02 <hppavilion[1]> If there were two sounds that were allophones in ALL known languages, would it even be reasonably possible to tell?
05:39:43 <zzo38> I don't know
05:40:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Refunge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49835 * Happa * (+7537) First version of the page.
05:45:29 <hppavilion[1]> (New Rule: the world 'allophone' is henceforth pronounced [æl ɫoʊ foʊn], making it good for explaining what it is)
05:45:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49836&oldid=49778 * Happa * (+14)
05:47:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Refunge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49837 * Hppavilion1 * (+277)
05:48:17 <^v> wana hear what you guys think
05:48:18 <^v> http://hastebin.com/raw/gicalepido
05:49:01 <^v> (assembly that compiles into brainfuck, designed to be generated from a higher level compiler)
05:49:29 <^v> in the sample code i show a working indexable string "type"
05:49:29 <hppavilion[1]> *claps*
05:50:18 <^v> it differentiates itself from existing compilers because it supports (relatively advanced) stack "multiplexing"
05:50:29 <^v> so multiple dynamically sized objects can co-exist
05:51:37 <^v> basically everything here can be implemented without hassle https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms
05:52:44 <hppavilion[1]> But can it monoplex?
05:52:51 <^v> hppavilion[1], yes
05:52:57 <hppavilion[1]> Cool
05:53:01 <hppavilion[1]> Can it nullplex?
05:53:13 <^v> yes
05:53:19 <^v> POP ^S
05:53:22 <xkapastel> will it blend?
05:55:00 <hppavilion[1]> ^v: wait, what the b**** is nullplexing?
05:55:50 <^v> hppavilion[1], where the program pops the main stack which causes a singularity that destroys everything
05:55:59 <hppavilion[1]> Oh?
05:56:05 <hppavilion[1]> OK, what's n-plexing exactly?
05:56:18 <^v> (joke)
05:56:38 <^v> n-plexing would just be multiplexing i guess?
05:56:42 <^v> well
05:56:45 <hppavilion[1]> ^v: No
05:56:46 <^v> n includes 1
05:56:53 <hppavilion[1]> OK, it's where multiple signals are merged. Presumably, stack multiplexing is where a bunch of stacks are put together
05:57:54 <hppavilion[1]> ^v: multiplexing includes 1 or any other number; n-plexing is the specific case where you're plexing n signals
05:58:18 <hppavilion[1]> multiplexing is n-plexing for arbitrary n (or for a constrained but otherwise-arbitrary n)
05:58:21 <^v> so you can "push" a group of stacks ontop of another, these stacks are multiplexed together by multiplying the < and > in brainfuck code "seeked" to values on those stacks
05:58:36 <^v> and yes, you can push just 1 stack ontop of another
05:58:54 <hppavilion[1]> monoplexing is the degenerate case of multiplexing that's basically just having one signal, but in a way that implies it COULD be more than one
05:58:57 <^v> useless functionality wise
06:02:19 <^v> the magic happens because its all passive to your code, code originally designed to be used on a single stack system (Brainfuck_algorithms) written in this lang can use variables that exist on different stack levels seamlessly
06:04:33 <^v> you can copy paste for example a bf self-interpreter and it would just use the stack you put it on as if it were its own tape (assuming it doesn't seek backwards :s)
06:08:23 <hppavilion[1]> In math, there's a theorem called the Squeeze Theorem
06:08:36 <hppavilion[1]> Several other languages call it the Two Policemen and a Drunk theorem.
06:08:41 <hppavilion[1]> We're missing out.
06:16:53 <^v> bugs bugs bugs
06:16:57 <^v> i broke stacks somehow
06:22:39 <^v> okay they are fixed, because i hate myself i created 5 completely redundant stacks http://pastebin.com/raw/TqNGLkLC
06:22:47 <^v> code prints "Oii" as expected
06:23:17 <^v> theres no reason stackception + 1 shouldnt work
06:23:42 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: In Polish it seems to be "theorem about three trains"
06:24:13 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, MLP:FiM in german is Freundschaft ist Magie. I'll try to find that...
06:24:37 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Oh, three sequences actually
06:24:39 <FreeFull> Same word
06:24:57 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Wat? "sequence" and "train" are the same?
06:25:10 <hppavilion[1]> (Wait, I guess the mathematical word "sequence" was probably taken from "train")
06:25:59 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Actually train is pociąg rather than just ciąg
06:26:08 <FreeFull> So nevermind
06:26:26 <FreeFull> "Theorem about three sequences" is a pretty boring name
06:26:38 <hppavilion[1]> I actually know so little about polish that my knowledge isn't just negative; it's negative AND imaginary.
06:27:07 <hppavilion[1]> (well, imaginary-split-imaginary)
06:27:26 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: So, you've got fairly complex knowledge of Polish? =P
06:27:53 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: ...what's the joke here? Is it that polish is horrendously complicated?
06:28:01 <hppavilion[1]> (I need some polish remover...)
06:28:17 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: No, just purely a joke about complex numbers
06:28:24 <hppavilion[1]> Oooooooh
06:28:27 <hppavilion[1]> Right, right
06:28:39 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Are we allowed to combine complex and split-complex numbers?
06:28:50 <FreeFull> Do you want to?
06:28:51 <hppavilion[1]> z = a+bi+cj+dji
06:28:54 <hppavilion[1]> Kind of
06:29:15 <FreeFull> Ask a mathematician
06:29:22 <hppavilion[1]> (i^2 = -1, j^2 = 1, j nin ℝ)
06:29:27 <myname> hppavilion[1]: what do you mean with "find that"?
06:29:58 <hppavilion[1]> myname: pirate.
06:30:13 <hppavilion[1]> Because I don't think there's any way to legally obtain it here
06:30:38 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Mix in dual numbers for extra kick
06:30:47 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Considering that.
06:31:01 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Dunno, read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercomplex_number
06:31:18 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: When you have that many parts, you need so many coefficients that you almost use 'i' as a coefficient
06:31:27 <hppavilion[1]> (Even the DVDs are probably in a different region)
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06:33:04 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Should be pretty easy to find on the internet
06:33:51 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: yes
06:33:52 <hppavilion[1]> a+bi+cj+dε+fij+giε+hjε+kijε
06:34:41 <FreeFull> That's what we get for abusing the alphabet
06:36:07 <FreeFull> Quaternions don't run into this issue, because ij=k, jk=i and ki = j
06:39:03 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: I don't understand how that works; what exactly are they?
06:39:40 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: They're all square roots of -1
06:39:48 <FreeFull> i^2 = j^2 = k^2 = ijk = -1
06:40:04 <hppavilion[1]> OK...
06:40:10 <hppavilion[1]> But DIFFERENT square roots?
06:40:12 <hppavilion[1]> Sure
06:40:15 <FreeFull> Yes
06:40:22 <FreeFull> Also, multiplication isn't commutative
06:40:29 <FreeFull> ij = k, ji = -k
06:41:05 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: So they do 3D rotations, but what if I want 4D rotations?
06:41:23 <hppavilion[1]> Do I use the pentenions?
06:41:37 <FreeFull> I don't think pentenions are a thing
06:41:42 <FreeFull> Just use rotation matrices
06:42:06 <hppavilion[1]> (and if real is for 1D and complex describes 2D, but quaternions are for 3D... what are trinions?)
06:42:24 <hppavilion[1]> (And what's the pattern? nD is done with 2^(n-1)ions?
06:42:26 <hppavilion[1]> )
06:45:41 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: You don't need complex numbers for 2D rotations, a single real number will do
06:45:53 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Wait, what?
06:46:15 <FreeFull> Keeping in mind, all rotations are around the origin
06:46:22 <hppavilion[1]> I seem to remember that you rotate in 2D by using x+yz and multiplying various things
06:46:26 <^v> because i super hate myself http://pastebin.com/raw/0YAh76sg
06:46:55 <^v> bar1 bar2 bar3 are level 15 stacks :v
06:47:49 <^v> full sauce, i fixed some things http://pastebin.com/raw/0yu2GFpD
06:47:57 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Yes, there is a connection between complex multiplication and 2D rotations, but the only important thing in 2D rotations is the angle, and you can encode that in a single real number
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06:48:08 <hppavilion[1]> Well yes
06:49:35 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, apparently 'OK' translates into german
06:50:55 <myname> yeah
06:51:01 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Hm, apparently you can represent a 4D rotation using a pair of quaternions
06:51:20 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: So probably equivalent octonions
06:51:28 <hppavilion[1]> (or something similar)
06:51:43 <hppavilion[1]> Thus, my conjecture remains valid
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06:53:49 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Let us have a moment of silence for the poor M-theorists, who have to use millivigintiquaternions
06:54:14 <hppavilion[1]> (wait, a moment of silence on #esoteric is just #esoteric...)
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06:54:46 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: I don't think octionions are connected directly to rotations in R^n for some n
06:55:33 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: One thing that connects real numbers, complex numbers, quaternions and octonions together is the Cayley-Dickson construction
06:56:04 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Pair of quaternions. Quaternions have 4 parts, so a pair has 8. I hypothesize that you could equivalently use some 8-dimensional hypercomplex (most likely standard octonions) with identical effect
06:57:13 <myname> the point about octonions is them having 8 parts
06:57:26 <FreeFull> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayley%E2%80%93Dickson_construction
06:57:28 <myname> a pair of quaternions does not
06:57:46 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_algebra contains a link that redirects to itself.
06:59:30 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Which one?
06:59:41 <hppavilion[1]> 'alternative'
07:00:09 <FreeFull> Oh, first sentence
07:00:32 <FreeFull> You could make a comment about it on the talk page or something
07:01:12 <myname> but it's funny
07:04:30 <hppavilion[1]> Yeah
07:04:38 <hppavilion[1]> 'OK, seriously bro, this is the page about it'
07:06:24 <hppavilion[1]> What's really fun is that some operators can be self-distributive: a⁂(b⁂c) = (a⁂b)⁂(a⁂c)
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07:36:29 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Do you remember @?
07:36:46 <hppavilion[1]> (It really needs a better name...)
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07:57:44 <myname> that thing where you never fully redefined || correctly?
08:10:08 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Yeah, that thing
08:12:38 <hppavilion[1]> (-1)^2 = @, @ != 1, |x| = sqrt(sum([cof(n)^2 for n in components(x))), where components(x) returns the parts as a list (so components (a+bi) = [a, bi]) and cof(n) is just the coefficient of a number- cof(ki) = k
08:13:13 <hppavilion[1]> New keyboard: latin-greek; normal ASCII, BUT it can also type greek letters on the altgr. Good for mathing.
08:13:22 <hppavilion[1]> s/ASCII/QWERTY/
08:14:56 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, supposedly, the reason we use QWERTY is that when we used ABCDEF, keys that were used frequently were close by and would be struck in too rapid succession, leading to mechanical errors. But Germany uses QWERTZ; did Germans use German engineering to overcome the mechanics?
08:15:24 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], I presume German has different letter combination frequencies to English
08:15:29 <Taneb> French uses AZERTY
08:15:38 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, yes, that too
08:17:14 <myname> qwertz doesn't make much sense imho
08:17:29 <myname> since tz and zu are pretty common
08:17:48 <myname> but neither are ty or yu nor za/zsg...
08:19:57 <Taneb> Well, in English, re is reasonably common
08:21:29 <myname> well, yeah, but i don't get why germans switched y and z in particular
08:22:28 <myname> combinations with any vowel are reasonably common
08:22:43 <myname> but they have to be somewhere
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08:23:36 <myname> are there third-party layouts for other languages?
08:23:47 <myname> i know dvorak for english and neo for german
08:23:56 <myname> but i am not aware of anything else
08:24:16 <hppavilion[1]> I'm replaciŋ ðe symbol for esh in ðe Eŋgliʃ Reformed Alphabet from ʃ to σ
08:24:27 <hppavilion[1]> Because capital esh is Ʃ
08:24:35 <myname> notable mentions for neo: arrow keys are on the home row
08:24:41 <myname> which is kinda awesome
08:24:51 <myname> but on the other hand, it completely breals hjkl
08:27:38 <hppavilion[1]> myname: My left and up arrow keys don't work for no apparent reason
08:38:00 <hppavilion[1]> https://youtu.be/46ehrFk-gLk?t=37s
08:38:20 <hppavilion[1]> "FACT: The linguist mafia will run you over with a bus if you break your vow of descriptivism"
08:45:35 <hppavilion[1]> ...wtf
08:45:45 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently blond and blonde are different words that carry gender
08:46:10 <myname> yeah
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08:49:28 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], it's what we get for stealing everything from the French
08:49:45 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: I hæt grammatical gender...
08:49:56 <hppavilion[1]> Even learning German, I'm kind of tempted to reject it as part of ðe language
08:50:17 <hppavilion[1]> If I just call everything neuter (Das), people will probably get it and just get used to it
08:54:49 <myname> and will think of you as a weirdo and will probably try staying away from you
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09:00:21 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Yes, but you guys are GERMANS
09:00:43 <hppavilion[1]> That basically describes what most Americans think of EVERY german
09:00:54 <hppavilion[1]> (Or Canadian, or Brit, or pretty much anybody, honestly)
09:01:00 <hppavilion[1]> (Wow, we're really pretty isolationist)
09:01:05 <hppavilion[1]> Anyway
09:01:35 <myname> hppavilion[1]: donjt worry the whole world thinks the same about americans
09:01:52 <hppavilion[1]> Fair enough
09:02:09 <hppavilion[1]> ...God. I hate prescriptivism, but I do have to correct people when they use the wrong "the'ir" and "your'e". How do I reconcile this contradiction?
09:02:17 <myname> murrica
09:09:29 <Taneb> @pl \f -> p (f x)
09:09:29 <lambdabot> p . ($ x)
09:32:05 <shachaf> `? octoberlord
09:32:12 <shachaf> `? oerjan
09:32:17 <HackEgo> octoberlord? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
09:32:18 <HackEgo> Your mysterious weevil bulgarian quack octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl and passion fruit. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
09:32:28 <int-e> `? password
09:32:30 <HackEgo> The password of the month is Bierstubë.
09:32:42 <int-e> ouch.
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10:58:21 <hppavilion[1]> Theorem: There are countably many possible gods (not in the sense of "exists" but in the sense of "yeah, I guess you could make that a religion or something")
11:00:03 <hppavilion[1]> Proof: Each god can described by a finite series of symbols taken from a finite alphabet (in fact, they can be described by several- probably countably many- of these). Sure, most combinations are meaningless, but we'll just ignore those.
11:03:16 <hppavilion[1]> The gods can be trivially mapped surjectively to the natural numbers by taking a holy book describing them, ordering the alphabet (A), and- starting with n=1- for each symbol indexed in A by c, multiplying n by c*|A|^k for each symbol in the book at index k (basically, I'm just using base-whatever)
11:03:24 <hppavilion[1]> Q.E.D.
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11:08:52 <hppavilion[1]> (Hm, I want to see calligraphic mathematics...)
11:10:12 <shachaf> The general idea of your proof is obvious to anyone who knows enough to understand it.
11:10:23 <shachaf> Except for the first sentence, which is an unfounded assumption.
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11:18:35 <hppavilion[1]> What branch of Philosophy covers humor? The best I can think of is Aesthetics, but I wouldn't exactly call a Priest and a Rabbi walking into a bar 'beautiful'
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11:36:15 <myname> why would you put that in philosophy in the first place?
11:43:04 <myname> did you ever read snow crash?
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12:11:19 <hppavilion[1]> Factorial is to subfactorial as triangle numbers are to what?
12:11:28 <izalove> subtriangles
12:12:34 <myname> hppavilion[1]: go read snow crash
12:12:48 <hppavilion[1]> myname: ...why?
12:12:59 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Yes, but... what do subtriangles even describe?
12:13:05 <myname> it's one of the basic books for computer scientists
12:13:09 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
12:13:17 <myname> together with douglas adams trilogy
12:13:35 <hppavilion[1]> Trilogy? I seem to remember there being 5, plus the salmon of doubt
12:13:40 <hppavilion[1]> Of which I own all of them
12:13:48 <izalove> also called the trilogy in 5 parts
12:13:55 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, sure, that works
12:14:18 <hppavilion[1]> x triangltorial is the sum of all integers from 0 to x, which is equal to x(x-1)/2
12:14:22 <myname> in german it's often called "vierteilige trilogie in 5 bänden"
12:14:45 <myname> so, 4 parts of a trilogy in 5 books
12:15:30 <int-e> In English there's the "fifth book in the increasingly inaccurately named Hitchhikers Trilogy"
12:16:03 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
12:17:10 <int-e> And apparently also "A trilogy in four parts".
12:17:22 <hppavilion[1]> A formula exists that subfact(x) = fact(x) * summ(0, x, lambda n: (-1)^n/fact(n))
12:17:52 <hppavilion[1]> Would subgamma (generalized subfactorial the same way gamma is generalized factorial) be the same, but s/fact/gamma/?
12:19:41 <myname> you're still not reading snow crash
12:20:21 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Not yet
12:20:30 <hppavilion[1]> Unless it's available for free online, no
12:20:41 <hppavilion[1]> It's 11:20. I'm not going to go buy a book.
12:20:49 <myname> well, depends on where you look for it
12:20:55 <hppavilion[1]> (11:20 UTC; I'm @ UTC-9)
12:20:57 <int-e> Don't give hppavilion[1] interesting things to read; I might have to unignore him...
12:21:05 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, what?
12:21:23 <hppavilion[1]> Is int-e ignoring me?
12:21:26 <myname> int-e: lol
12:21:42 <myname> but you seem to know that book
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12:22:18 <nothppavilion> int-e: mwahahahaha
12:22:54 <nothppavilion> But no, really, am I (a) on ignore and (b) why and (c) your client ignores hostnames, doesn't it?
12:23:33 <hppavilion[1]> So as I was saying
12:23:36 <myname> to be fair, you spam a lot
12:23:51 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Not spam; incoherently babble
12:24:00 <myname> also, you make it intentionally harder to communicate with you
12:24:06 <hppavilion[1]> Totally different, much more annoying
12:24:08 <hppavilion[1]> myname: When?
12:25:07 <myname> like when yountry to make your own alphabet
12:25:33 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I don't use ERA in #esoteric at the request of people whose clients don't like unicode
12:26:00 <myname> you did like in the last 24 hours at least
12:26:01 <hppavilion[1]> I use it literally everywhere else though, and an eth occasionally manages to slip out
12:27:11 <myname> i wonder why people don't hate you elsewhere
12:27:18 <hppavilion[1]> Because eths are literally everywhere when writing; "the", "this", "that", "there", "they", "them", etc.
12:27:21 <int-e> myname: I've not read Snow Crash, I believe.
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12:27:23 <hppavilion[1]> Who says they don't?
12:27:38 <myname> int-e: do it
12:28:16 <hppavilion[1]> e = summ(0, inf, λ n -> 1/n!)
12:28:24 <hppavilion[1]> s/n!/fact(n)/
12:29:20 <hppavilion[1]> u = summ(0, inf, λ n -> 1/subfact(n), λ n -> n ≠ 1)
12:29:39 <hppavilion[1]> (I wonder if the sum of reciprocal triangle numbers is significant)
12:31:28 <int-e> actually I probably have read it, but I remember very little about it.
12:33:12 <int-e> Maybe all the memes taken over by Daniel Suarez' Daemon series (there's some thematic overlap).
12:34:00 <hppavilion[1]> ...the limit of the reciprocal triangular sum is 2
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12:36:22 <int-e> And then there's Gibson (Neuromancer)
12:44:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MarioLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49838&oldid=39253 * Martin Ender * (+39)
12:44:44 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, ((positive) integer) powers are closely related to n-cubes
12:45:14 <hppavilion[1]> I want the same, but for n-tetrahedrons
12:45:57 <hppavilion[1]> (mainly so, while you can say "x squared" for x to the power 2, you can say "x triangled" for x to the whatever-this-is 2
12:47:06 <fizzie> Huh, that felt weird. Python's pip thing used a progress bar that went all ▏ ▎ ▍ ▌ ▋ ▊ ▉ █ smoothly.
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12:54:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Swordfish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49839 * Martin Ender * (+223) Created page with "This is tagged as Implemented, but I can't seem to be able to find an implementation. Is an interpreter available somewhere? --~~~~"
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12:58:14 <hppavilion[1]> The 8th 5-tetrahedral number is 792.
12:58:15 <hppavilion[1]> I am god
13:00:40 <myname> you are not
13:01:13 <hppavilion[1]> myname: shhhhhh
13:01:21 <hppavilion[1]> This is the feeling you get when you use computers
13:08:08 <hppavilion[1]> The Golden Triangle Number is 2.118033988749895
13:08:17 <hppavilion[1]> (no relation to the golden triangle)
13:08:20 <hppavilion[1]> (probably)
13:10:53 <hppavilion[1]> I would make a great hippie...
13:26:36 <myname> indeed
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13:35:53 <boily> `wisdom
13:36:01 <HackEgo> bfjoust//bfjoust is a spamming tool for #esoteric.
13:42:10 <boily> @massages-loud
13:42:11 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] asked 9h 36m 20s ago: Do you keep a backup mapole in the channel when you aren't here?
13:42:42 <boily> hppavellon[1]! no, but that's a good idea!
13:42:49 <hppavilion[1]> Yay!
13:42:58 <boily> to whom shall I entrust my trusty mapole?
13:43:00 <hppavilion[1]> Put it over by the hat rack.
13:43:08 <hppavilion[1]> Also, we need a hat rack.
13:43:25 <hppavilion[1]> Can mapoles be used as hat racks?
13:43:36 <boily> you can do anything with a mapole.
13:43:58 <hppavilion[1]> I wish https://xkcd.com/136/ was real... I would read that paper.
13:45:54 <hppavilion[1]> According to wikipedia: "A person who performs cunnilingus may be referred to as a cunnilinguist."
13:46:06 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a field called cunnilinguistics?
13:47:58 <hppavilion[1]> cunniproto-indo-european
13:48:09 <boily> would that imply making sounds while you're performing?
13:50:41 <hppavilion[1]> No?
13:59:16 <myname> that quote is genius
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14:25:43 <boily> > 3 / 5 + pi / (7 - pi)
14:25:45 <lambdabot> 1.4142200580539208
14:27:00 <myname> but why?
14:32:11 <boily> I have no fungotting idea.
14:32:12 <fungot> boily: e333 you can't manage that, the `next' act too much like `come from' and/ or modify this document under the gnu autoconf ( configure); its autoconf source code), and one of them may be a clue that you don't put it?
14:34:52 <quintopia> boily: package resent yesterday
14:34:58 <quintopia> i have tracking
14:40:54 <myname> you may approximate pi by 3+(3/5+pi/(7-pi))/10
14:45:48 <quintopia> `le/rn amphiboily/Franglish grammatical hambiguity, rewarded with a mapole
14:45:51 <HackEgo> Learned «amphiboily»
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14:51:27 <boily> Y'avait a girl from Gatineau deux nuits que j'était en vacation. Probablement le code switch le plus mind bending que j'ai jamais entendu.
14:52:52 <boily> En plus qu'elle teachait l'anglais in Korea, et qu'elle translatait du coréen en cantonese au monde à l'auberge.
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16:29:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Conor O'Brien]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49840&oldid=49028 * Conor O'Brien * (+27) /* Languages I have made */
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17:46:37 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_algebra contains a link that redirects to itself. <-- someone back in 2014 did a faulty merge, presumably because they didn't understand that "algebra" has several meanings. i fixed it.
17:46:37 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] lets you know: haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaands
17:46:37 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
17:47:06 <oerjan> int-e: any chance of removing that stupid feature
17:48:36 <oerjan> int-e: (the lambdabot lines contain a nick you're ignoring, in case you're confused)
17:50:46 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] also if you want any more @tells, remove that stupid response twh
17:50:46 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] lets you know: haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaands
17:50:46 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
18:10:08 <oerjan> `? amphiboily
18:10:13 <HackEgo> Franglish grammatical hambiguity, rewarded with a mapole
18:10:38 <oerjan> `slwd amphiboily//s/F/Amphiboily is F/
18:10:39 <HackEgo> wisdom/amphiboily//Amphiboily is Franglish grammatical hambiguity, rewarded with a mapole
18:11:07 <oerjan> `slwd amphiboily//s/$/./
18:11:10 <HackEgo> wisdom/amphiboily//Amphiboily is Franglish grammatical hambiguity, rewarded with a mapole.
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18:27:35 <int-e> oerjan: probably won't remove it; it's actually working as intended: it allows people to let other people know that they don't want @tell messages
18:28:18 <int-e> (I forgot who requested it though, and I wouldn't go out of my way to advertise the feature)
18:29:12 <int-e> Yay, I finally got a Nikoli competition puzzle right in the first attempt. I failed to do that for the two previous ones...
18:29:30 <oerjan> congrats ->
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18:44:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RubE On Conveyor Belts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49841&oldid=44824 * Martin Ender * (+40)
18:45:06 <zzo38> I think goto command ought to be added into JavaScript and a few others of the good feature from C, which also has macro preprocessor and setjmp/longjmp. Although, in JavaScript it could be made a better way than the C way.
18:46:04 <zzo38> With sufficiently general macros, call/cc could be implemented in strict mode.
18:47:03 <ais523> how much of the JavaScript state would be "inside" the continuation, and how much would be global?
18:49:12 <zzo38> Local variables might be inside, if it is declared inside of a continuation function, otherwise it isn't.
18:49:33 <zzo38> You would have to declare individual functions as continuation functions if it were to be implemented entirely with macros.
18:50:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Minkolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49842&oldid=44756 * Martin Ender * (+66)
18:50:31 <zzo38> (But you could also make some local variables "outside" of the continuation if you wanted to, as well; depending how it is implemented)
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19:54:44 <myname> how would you think a multiplayer mode for a df like should work? all i can figure out is something like a time terminated 1vs1 or the like
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20:16:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cubix]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49843 * ETHproductions * (+4580) Created page with "'''Cubix''' is a stack-based 2-dimensional language where the code is wrapped around a cube. == Overview == Cubix was inspired by [[Labyrinth]] and [[Hexagony]], both stack-..."
20:21:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:ETHproductions]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49844 * ETHproductions * (+343) Added user page for ETHproductions
20:22:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49845&oldid=49836 * ETHproductions * (+12) Added Cubix to language list
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20:33:26 <zzo38> Apparently tail calls are not yet implemented in Node.js
20:36:00 <shachaf> "return f();" is an error?
20:37:51 <quintopia> who was it who was asking about the cost of finding the set of strings that are within a certain levdnshtein distance?
20:37:55 <zzo38> No, it is valid, but it is not implemented as a tail call.
20:38:17 <zzo38> The program will do the correct thing but it is not as efficient as it should be.
20:38:51 <zzo38> (And in some cases may result in a stack overflow if tail calls are not implemented.)
20:38:54 <quintopia> this algorithm has a much faster average case: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-best-programming-algorithm-that-you-have-ever-created/answer/Leo-Polovets?srid=i3Gd&share=82807028
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21:19:13 <quintopia> hellais523
21:19:21 <ais523> hi
21:19:44 <quintopia> whats your ale of choice
21:22:22 <ais523> I don't drink alcohol; I don't like the taste
21:22:31 * APic too.
21:22:44 <ais523> (I realised this after trying both alcoholic and non-alcoholic wine and preferring the non-alcoholic wine)
21:24:08 <fizzie> I'm not sure if that's a valid comparison, I'm sure there could be other differences between the wines in question.
21:24:57 <APic> True.
21:29:22 <shachaf> Is non-alcoholic wine grape juice?
21:29:35 <shachaf> I suppose not.
21:30:13 <shachaf> I should try non-alcoholic wine.
21:30:23 <APic> True.
21:32:51 <int-e> no, the alcohol is removed after fermentation... in particular most of the sugar will still be gone
21:34:10 <int-e> http://winefolly.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/non-alcoholic-wine-reverse-osmosis.png looks plausible
21:37:18 <zzo38> I think they say "goto" is not a reserved word in JavaScript anymore and therefore you can't add a goto statement, but I think it is not a problem as long as it doesn't accept a computed goto and there is no line break between the word "goto" and the name of the label to go to. If it is a problem though, you could use the keyword "->" instead perhaps.
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21:44:40 <quintopia> thats too bad
21:44:53 <quintopia> wine != ale
21:46:55 <APic> True.
21:52:32 -!- jeffl35 has changed nick to GNU\jeffl35.
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21:58:00 <zzo38> I have the idea about making macros in JavaScript, which would involve some new kind of syntax: \{ ... } executes statements in a macro context, \( ... ) executes an expression in a macro context (the value of the expression is expected to be either a string or a AST object), (| ... |) makes a expression AST object, {| ... |} makes a statement AST object. Do you like this?
22:03:16 <zzo38> (It is somewhat like Template Haskell.)
22:14:01 * quintopia wonders if APic says more than one word at a time
22:14:13 <APic> No Idea.
22:14:36 <quintopia> wow. three whole syllables
22:14:45 <quintopia> its a pb
22:15:06 <APic> Playmate?
22:15:47 <quintopia> personal best
22:16:45 <APic> Okay.
22:19:19 <quintopia> what do?
22:21:21 <int-e> `? APic
22:21:29 <HackEgo> APic? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:22:51 <quintopia> i pog5rammed a pic once
22:22:59 <quintopia> programmed
22:23:04 <int-e> I'm thinking "a picture", but it must be wrong: A picture says more than a thousand words.
22:23:42 <APic> HackEgo: 🙌
22:23:43 <quintopia> i was thinking programmable integrated circuit
22:23:57 <quintopia> or whatever PIC stands for
22:24:05 <int-e> quintopia: APIC = advanced programmable interrupt controller
22:24:42 <quintopia> programmable interface controller
22:24:54 <quintopia> or
22:24:57 <quintopia> uh
22:25:00 <APic> Thank You.
22:25:03 <Zarutian> pesky interrupting cohort.
22:25:07 <APic> *shrug*
22:25:13 <quintopia> peripheral interface controller
22:25:19 <quintopia> actually
22:25:29 <quintopia> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIC_microcontroller
22:25:31 <int-e> people can't memorize computer industry acronyms
22:25:34 <APic> Good old Times. ☺
22:25:49 <APic> int-e: True.
22:25:52 <quintopia> 39
22:26:20 <quintopia> more emoji pls
22:26:37 <int-e> APic: quite old joke :)
22:26:41 <Zarutian> int-e: because there are so many of them and with contradictory expansions.
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22:27:18 <quintopia> int-e i didnt notice the pcmcia until you said ir was a joke
22:27:30 <int-e> (what was it, PC memory card industry association?)
22:27:31 <quintopia> pcmica
22:27:46 <quintopia> pmiaca
22:27:54 <quintopia> campia
22:27:55 <int-e> no, international. close though.
22:27:57 <quintopia> thats it
22:28:24 <quintopia> pcpcpcpca
22:28:52 <zzo38> I am making program to save JavaScript objects into a file and then to be able to load them from a file.
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22:29:14 <quintopia> why do you find json insufficient?
22:29:41 <zzo38> JSON can work for some things.
22:30:01 <quintopia> and you can convert anything into those some things
22:30:03 <zzo38> But, JSON cannot store all JavaScript values; for example it cannot store multiple references to the same object.
22:30:17 <zzo38> It is also inefficient when using ArrayBuffers.
22:30:40 <quintopia> really
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22:31:12 <quintopia> what are your plans for security
22:31:42 <zzo38> The program I am making uses a binary file format rather than text, so names of keys do not need to be repeated. Also it can contain references to objects and symbols from outside.
22:32:35 <zzo38> If you want security you can omit the external types you don't want. Note that functions cannot be serialized in this format, anyways. So there are still some limitations; but it can encode a lot more than JSON.
22:34:38 <Zarutian> zzo38: encycle.js or some such by Crockford iirc has ibid refs for internal references in object graphs serialized to JSON
22:35:16 <zzo38> O, OK, but I am making my own now anyways. I wrote half of it already.
22:36:49 <zzo38> (Also, my program is not pure JavaScript and requires Node.js)
22:37:02 <Zarutian> zzo38: external types? are those like the module and class names in pickling in python?
22:37:40 <APic> +
22:38:07 <zzo38> I don't know about pickling. External type in my program is what you can associate an object with a function, and when it tries to serialize an object with that prototype it will emit a header and then call the named function in order to do so.
22:38:35 <zzo38> So in that way you can serialize objects that have internal slots.
22:39:16 <Zarutian> zzo38: oh so like an unevaler in http://wiki.erights.org/wiki/Safe_Serialization_Under_Mutual_Suspicion then?
22:39:37 <zzo38> (Or, if you have some global variable in your program which needs to keep track of all objects of a specified type, for some reason.)
22:39:48 <Zarutian> zzo38: what is in this header? the name of the function?
22:40:09 <zzo38> (And a further use of this is to encode the object more efficiently.)
22:40:38 <zzo38> Zarutian: No; it is a number that identifies the function. You must define the same external objects/symbols and external types for writing as you do for reading.
22:42:19 <Zarutian> zzo38: I see, so you are stepping around the 'run this arbritrary chosen (by name) function to deserialize this object' by using that num2extobjtype scheme
22:42:37 <zzo38> Yes.
22:42:42 <Zarutian> zzo38: which means that one can implement graph exits in your format easily
22:45:23 <Zarutian> (for the cases where you want a serialize an object graph where some objects are pointing to unserializable objects whose replacements will exists at deserialization time.)
22:45:29 <zzo38> (Also, the implementation of this serializer does not even know the names of any functions; it only associates each of the objects defined as an external type with a number and a function. It can then read it either by number or by object as the key. Storing a number also will make the file smaller than storing the name of the function anyways, and the function might not even have a name; nor does it necessarily have access to the correct context e
22:45:41 <zzo38> Zarutian: Yes, you can do that.
22:46:38 <Zarutian> zzo38: got any documentation on this format yet?
22:47:31 <zzo38> Not published; I only have it hand-written in a book. I will publish on computer once this program is published, though.
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22:49:45 <Zarutian> zzo38: got a smartphone handy with a camera? I am rather curious how this format looks
22:50:17 <zzo38> I haven't any; sorry.
22:51:49 <quintopia> its okay
22:52:04 <quintopia> everyone knows you finish what you start
22:52:05 <zzo38> You can wait until it is published and then you can read it.
22:53:03 <Zarutian> quintopia: why do you think I am asking for pictures, eh?
22:53:34 <quintopia> cuz ur rude?
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22:55:24 <Zarutian> quintopia: that too.
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23:17:43 <Zarutian> quintopia: so, I am asking you this: putting obsticales such as ASLR and others of the same kind is increasing computer security in your eyes?
23:18:32 <Zarutian> quintopia: a rude probing question but should be (thought) provoking, no?
23:18:53 <zzo38> ASLR meaning what?
23:19:47 <Zarutian> Address Space Layout Randomization
23:20:10 <zzo38> OK
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23:21:55 <zzo38> I think it is just complicating stuff, and that other methods can be used for memory protection.
23:22:48 <zzo38> An option to randomize addresses for a compiled program in a compiler can help with finding errors though.
23:24:07 <Zarutian> it is an inaffective bandaid on the festering fleshwound that is due to idotic choices made way way back in the day.
23:24:44 <Zarutian> zzo38: why does randomizing addresses for a compiled progam held with finding errors?
23:24:59 <Zarutian> s/held/help/
23:26:18 <zzo38> To see if something incorrectly accesses a wrong address by using invalid array indexing or whatever (although there are other ways to do this too, but these other ways might cause the program to run more slowly). However, such option should be used only during testing.
23:26:20 <Zarutian> btw next level in 'fuzzing' is probably something like adaptive markov-chain-generated fuzzing.
23:27:49 <Zarutian> (eliminate those fuzzes that are caught early by the program until you basically are banging against the edge cases)
23:27:57 <zzo38> I think the "Future Systems" 128-bit processor might be capable of detecting invalid pointers though.
23:28:39 <Zarutian> zzo38: not so much future as being an sparse capability system in disguise, I would think.
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23:43:26 <hppavilion[1]> Analogy clause of the day: minority:majority::?:plurality
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23:51:22 <quintopia> helloerjan
23:51:48 <quintopia> Zarutian: i dont know
23:52:15 <oerjan> i hope that " wasn't supposed to be there.
23:52:27 <oerjan> quintophia
23:53:24 <izalove> do you know any good site for downloading anime subs?
23:53:26 <izalove> only the subs
23:53:30 <izalove> i have the anime
23:53:49 <hppavilion[1]> @massages-screamed
23:53:49 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
23:53:54 <hppavilion[1]> @messages-proud
23:53:54 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 7m 17s ago: <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_algebra contains a link that redirects to itself. <-- someone back in 2014 did a faulty merge, presumably because
23:53:54 <lambdabot> they didn't understand that "algebra" has several meanings. i fixed it.
23:53:54 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 3m 7s ago: also if you want any more @tells, remove that stupid response twh
23:54:21 <hppavilion[1]> @clear-auto-reply
23:54:21 <lambdabot> Auto-reply message cleared.
23:54:27 <oerjan> thank you.
23:54:36 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: The Neverchanging Topic | This counter has been incremented sevence | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
23:58:02 <oerjan> huh "count" and "compute" are cognates.
23:58:12 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: ...what's cognate?
23:58:28 <oerjan> @wn cognate
23:58:29 <hppavilion[1]> ...huh
23:58:30 <lambdabot> *** "cognate" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
23:58:30 <lambdabot> cognate
23:58:30 <lambdabot> adj 1: related in nature; "connate qualities" [syn: {connate},
23:58:30 <lambdabot> {cognate}]
23:58:30 <lambdabot> 2: having the same ancestral language; "cognate languages"
23:58:32 <lambdabot> [8 @more lines]
23:58:38 <hppavilion[1]> Common etymological origin
23:58:40 <hppavilion[1]> ...cool?
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