←2016-11-18 2016-11-19 2016-11-20→ ↑2016 ↑all
00:00:09 * moonheart08 finally got around to making HBL's wiki page
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00:08:48 <LKoen> Hufvudstadsbladet?
00:08:55 <LKoen> I was wondering why that did not have a page
00:10:01 <fizzie> I don't get Python's timezone stuff: http://sprunge.us/MXJi
00:10:03 <fizzie> "If you merely want to attach a time zone object tz to a datetime dt without adjustment of date and time data, use dt.replace(tzinfo=tz)." That sounds exactly what I want, but when I try it, I get this weird "offset by -1 minute" timezone.
00:10:09 * moonheart08 goes off to attempt to repopulate #irp
00:12:00 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/UASa idgi tdnh
00:14:26 <fizzie> Okay, apparently it needs to be pytz.timezone('Europe/London').localize(<non-aware datetime goes here>) instead.
00:15:17 <fizzie> I think I probably knew this at some point.
00:16:01 * DHeadshot idles in #irp all day...
00:30:52 <zzo38> I also wrote a program you can calculate a GURPS character's life expectancy, assuming that someone doesn't murder them, using a simulation, and using the inputs: strength, dexterity, intelligence, health, increase/short lifespan level, medical TL, longevity, self-destruction.
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00:35:31 <int-e> shachaf: I couldn't find the Okapi interpreter either but see now https://github.com/catseye/Chrysoberyl/issues/7
00:36:02 <shachaf> int-e: I see that now too.
00:36:59 <int-e> (it's worth a try :) )
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00:39:50 <quintopia> moonello
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00:40:38 <computing> hi
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01:38:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Kitanai]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50293&oldid=50288 * Sygmei * (+29) /* Examples */
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01:51:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Kitanai]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50294&oldid=50293 * Sygmei * (+20) /* Examples */
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02:00:50 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh hi
02:01:00 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: That was me being online to inform someone where I was
02:01:07 <hppavilion[1]> I just got home.
02:04:58 <shachaf> `? cut elimination
02:05:01 <HackEgo> The cut-elimination theorem states that any Prolog program written using the cut operator ! can be rewritten without using that operator.
02:05:28 <hppavilion[1]> How many possible subcommittees are there in a chamber of n distinct individuals?
02:07:21 <hppavilion[1]> Given that a subcommittee is a subset S of the total chamber C, where |C| > |S| ≥ 2, and that an individual can be a member of more than one subcommittee, but that subcommittees with identical membership are considered the same
02:09:04 * DHeadshot thinks 2 am is too late for his mind to do set theory...
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02:10:28 <hppavilion[1]> I think *probably* \Sum{n = 2}{n < |C|}{\binomco{|C|}{n}}
02:10:47 <hppavilion[1]> Or something very similar, like |C|-2 in the top or -1 from the whole thing or something
02:12:12 <hppavilion[1]> (Hm, but what if we have the subcommittees have a special member p who is the chair? Then a subcommittee is (p, S) where S is the set of members, p is the chair, and p \in S... so the number of chaired subcommittees of size N is N times the number of chairless subcommittees of size N...)
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02:25:52 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: without chairs, it's simply 2^|C| - |C| - 1 hth
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02:27:37 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: ty
02:28:00 <hppavilion[1]> That should've been obvious but I am tired.
02:28:18 <oerjan> oh wait
02:28:23 <oerjan> make that -2
02:28:32 <oerjan> there's also the empty set to exclude
02:28:57 <oerjan> with chairs, hm... |C| * (2^|C-1| - 2) i think
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02:32:18 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, yes
02:33:00 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Wait, |C-1|?
02:33:45 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: How does that- wait- OK, what?
02:34:56 <oerjan> er, |C|-1
02:35:17 <oerjan> (|C|-1)
02:35:51 <oerjan> it's |C-{p}|, really
02:36:11 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
02:36:32 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Is it? p has to be a member of the subcommittee...
02:36:33 <hppavilion[1]> Hm...
02:36:50 <oerjan> you've already chosen p, now you choose the rest...
02:36:59 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
02:37:09 <hppavilion[1]> Our definitions are probably equivalent, tbh
02:37:31 <oerjan> i should hope so
02:37:47 <oerjan> this is "just" combinatorics
02:38:39 <oerjan> (aka one of the hardest subfields of math :P)
02:39:16 <Jafet> the subfield that counts the most
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03:42:34 <zzo38> Sometimes in JavaScript programming I use String.prototype.replace even when not needing to replace anything; the result will sometimes be discarded.
03:49:14 <shachaf> zzo38: Have you used C#?
03:52:38 <zzo38> No
04:30:46 <zzo38> How to restore the cursor properly? I have sending "\x1B[m\x1B[?6;7;66;67s\x1B[?42;66;69;1049h\x1B[?4;6;7;25;44;67l\x1B F\x1B[r\x1B%@\x1B(B\x1B)0" when the program starts (followed by stty), and then "\x1B[r\x0F\x1B[?25h\x1B[?69;1049l\x1B[?6;7;66;67r" (again followed by stty) when program is stopped. But, the cursor is now always moved to the top left corner instead of restored properly.
04:30:54 <zzo38> Can you notice what I have done wrong?
04:33:57 <^v> zzo38, a breakdown of those ansi codes would help :^)
04:34:12 <^v> for those who dont have a table lying around
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04:54:46 <izalove> is there any brainfuck implementation that understands that these are the same? +[>.+] +[>.<]
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05:12:24 <hppavilion[1]> *DING* Dropped a crate of bells
05:13:54 <hppavilion[1]> Jafet: It appears no one else did
05:13:55 <hppavilion[1]> So
05:14:03 * hppavilion[1] *THWACK*'s Jafet
05:14:14 * hppavilion[1] returns the thwacker
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05:45:27 <tswett_> Foooolks
05:45:51 <tswett_> I'm creating a language called Tokiber and writing a Tokiber-to-C# compiler in C# and then gradually translating it to Tokiber!
05:47:19 <tswett_> Trying to write Tokiber in Tokiber is making me realize that Tokiber really sucks.
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05:57:23 <Cale> Optimising languages for ease of writing compilers has certainly taken us a good long way :)
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06:06:32 <hppavilion[1]> tswett_: wo*w
06:22:10 <zzo38> ^v: http://invisible-island.net/xterm/ctlseqs/ctlseqs.html
06:29:36 <shachaf> `grwp necessary
06:29:44 <HackEgo> ​.doorstop:You do not have the clearance necessary to view this entry. \ issue:You do not have the clearance necessary to view this entry. \ keenlist:keenlist is notification for when Tom Hall finally acquires the necessary intellectual property rights to create the videogame series Commander Keen: The Universe is Toast \ necessity:If necessity d
06:30:06 <shachaf> `` grwp necessary | sport
06:30:09 <HackEgo> 1/2:.doorstop:You do not have the clearance necessary to view this entry. \ issue:You do not have the clearance necessary to view this entry. \ keenlist:keenlist is notification for when Tom Hall finally acquires the necessary intellectual property rights to create the videogame series Commander Keen: The Universe is Toast \ necessi
06:30:17 <shachaf> `spam
06:30:18 <HackEgo> 2/2:ty:If necessity did not exist, it would be necessary for Taneb to invent it. \ Binary file reflection matches
06:41:34 <hppavilion[1]> ~V is the same as ^v, correct?
06:41:36 <hppavilion[1]> `? ~
06:41:37 <HackEgo> ​~? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
06:41:41 <hppavilion[1]> `? ^
06:41:42 <HackEgo> ​^ (also notated by ⊕ or ⊻) is the exclusive-or operator; ∧ (also notated by /\ or &) is the and (conjunction) operator; ^ (also notated by ↑ or ** or ⋆) is the power operator.
06:44:35 <hppavilion[1]> What about ˆ?
06:45:43 <hppavilion[1]> And ̂?
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07:24:51 <shachaf> Cale: Funny ending to eO4pr-r3OCf
07:33:55 <Cale> hahahaha
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07:34:04 <Cale> wtf zemora
07:42:03 <Cale> shachaf: I'm pretty sure Turn 11 was what lost you that game
07:42:16 <Cale> Just getting the wall seems to go much better for you
07:44:39 <shachaf> You're right, I'm not sure why I did that.
07:45:06 <shachaf> Maybe an irrational aversion to suboptimal absorb. But two drones is a high price to pay for that.
07:45:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50295&oldid=50290 * Slnetaiga * (+276)
07:46:16 <shachaf> I was only half paying attention for some of that.
07:46:22 <shachaf> Anyway the ending was frustratingly close.
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09:03:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50296&oldid=50295 * Slnetaiga * (+55)
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10:04:39 <lynn> Did ais523 finally get a programming language named after him? :>
10:05:42 <lynn> (Like Ada and Haskell, you see. The highest honor for computer scientists)
10:12:05 <hppavilion[1]> lynn: I thought ais was "andrew"??
10:13:06 <lynn> nope, Alex Smith
10:13:20 <lynn> (but what does the i stand for?)
10:14:46 <hppavilion[1]> lynn: iͥ
10:15:10 <hppavilion[1]> (that's an 'i' with a smaller 'i' in place of a tittle)
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10:19:55 <Jafet> this language doesn't seem particularly honourable
10:20:25 <myname> quick, make a better one and name it smith
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12:51:59 <FreeFull> lynn: Haskell Curry had quite many things named after him
12:52:27 <FreeFull> A whole of three programming languages, one for his first name, one for the middle name, and one for the surname
12:55:50 <myname> curry is a great language
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14:18:26 <boily> `wisdom
14:18:41 <HackEgo> cdop//CDOP is OCPD, except with the letters in the *proper* order.
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14:53:04 <boily> `relcome wanderman
14:53:08 <HackEgo> wanderman: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
14:53:24 <wanderman> :)
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15:21:40 <tswett_> `unidecode iͥ
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15:27:37 <tswett_> Oh hey, Cale and shachaf were talking about Prismata.
15:27:44 <tswett_> I CRACKED YOUR CODE
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15:28:19 <tswett_> I'm gonna play Prismata.
15:36:59 <tswett_> Yes... I almost remember how to play this.
15:37:16 <tswett_> My last time playing was a couple of weeks ago.
15:39:58 <boily> tswellott_. what's a prismata?
15:40:33 <tswett_> It's this game. http://prismata.net/
15:40:47 <tswett_> Billed as "the best parts of StarCraft and Hearthstone".
15:40:59 <tswett_> But I'm pretty sure it's also a game of perfect information.
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15:46:33 <boily> hellørjan.
15:47:07 <oerjan> helloily!
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15:59:11 <oerjan> <myname> quick, make a better one and name it smith <-- cpressey already did hth
15:59:40 <oerjan> it's somewhat unlikely to be named after ais523, being from 2000.
16:00:59 <tswett_> "You have been defeated by Pacifist Bot."
16:01:00 <tswett_> Damn.
16:01:21 <oerjan> it is, however, pretty clearly a better language than Alex.
16:01:44 <oerjan> tswett_: did it negotiate you into submission
16:02:24 <tswett_> Something like that.
16:02:28 <boily> uhm. should I be concerned about that Alex thing?
16:02:54 <oerjan> i doubt it. looks very brainfuck-inspired (except syntax)
16:04:50 <oerjan> it's only positive value is if it finally causes ais523 to explode and go on a brainfuck derivative crusade.
16:04:53 <oerjan> *its
16:05:31 <moonheart08> lol
16:06:23 <oerjan> (the syntax is, of course, _more_ boring than brainfuck's)
16:07:42 <tswett_> So, with my last defeat, I just resigned.
16:07:49 <tswett_> This time, Pacifist Bot actually defeated me.
16:07:56 <tswett_> By, like, attacking.
16:08:09 <tswett_> I thought it was supposed to, like, not do that.
16:24:29 <tswett_> There, I did it. I defeated Pacifist Bot on Bullet speed.
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16:34:52 <tswett_> And I've defeated Wacky Bot on Bullet as well. \o/
16:38:00 <tswett_> Guys, Bullet speed is really fast.
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16:59:07 * boily needs his weekly dose of diacritical soup
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17:28:47 <tswett_> I failed to defeat Basic Bot on Bullet speed. It's almost like Bullet is really fast or something!
17:29:00 <tswett_> Hey, there's something I think I forgot to mention.
17:29:01 <tswett_> Bullet is fast.
17:29:50 <oerjan> i'm not sure i'm getting you, are you saying that bullet speed is fast twh
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17:38:37 <tswett_> No, I'm actually saying that Bullet speed is extremely slow.
17:38:49 <tswett_> Each turn lasts billions and billions of nanoseconds.
17:38:56 <\oren\> Hooray, nuclear powered turbojet
17:39:13 <\oren\> I can flyyyyy forevaaaaaaa
17:40:04 <tswett_> I also failed at Blitz and then Rapid, so let's try Quick.
17:48:46 <oerjan> what about Glacial hth
17:49:29 <tswett_> Glacial is brutal, you only get 1,209,600 seconds per turn.
17:49:36 <oerjan> shocking
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17:58:52 <wob_jonas> ais, hi! I wanted to say two things yesterday but couldn't catch you
17:59:30 <oerjan> (why _do_ people abbreviate nicks, haven't they heard of highlighting?)
17:59:46 <ais523> hi
17:59:59 <wob_jonas> oerjan: he just came in, he's obviously listening
18:00:01 <wob_jonas> no need to ping him
18:00:16 <ais523> oerjan: occasionally it's specifically to avoid highlighting someone unless they're paying attention to the channel
18:00:16 <ais523> (i.e. "if you're around and paying attention I want to talk to you, otherwise I don't care)
18:00:16 <ais523> "
18:00:16 <ais523> )
18:00:18 <oerjan> OKAY
18:00:19 <ais523> hmm
18:01:06 <tswett_> Woohoo, I managed to beat Basic Bot on Normal.
18:02:20 <wob_jonas> tsewtt_: how basic is this basic bot?
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18:03:05 <tswett_> I'd estimate the pH of this bot at about 9.
18:03:29 <ais523> I'm not sure I can fix this mispunctuation by adding on more characters
18:03:29 <ais523> =~s/\)$//
18:03:42 <LKoen> that is a basic estimation
18:04:17 <tswett_> Here's a stupid challenge that's probably trivially impossible.
18:04:41 <tswett_> Write a sequence of /// commands that just removes all slashes and backslashes from everything that follows.
18:04:48 <LKoen> "approximately equal to substituting nothing to an escaped closing parenthesis and a line beginning"
18:05:05 <tswett_> $ is definitely a line ending.
18:05:11 <LKoen> apologies
18:06:12 <tswett_> It seems like you can't do the /// thing. You have to either remove the slashes first, and then you won't be able to remove the backslashes; or you have to remove the backslashes first and then you can't remove the slashes.
18:06:23 <oerjan> tswett_: that does seem tricky.
18:06:37 <tswett_> But I'm not confident that there's no way to overcome this.
18:07:14 <ais523> tswett_: it's fairly easy if you have a spare character to use
18:07:18 <tswett_> Let's make it a little easier, and say that you can assume that the following stuff consists only of slashes, backslashes, and uppercase letters.
18:07:26 <tswett_> ais523: I just gave us a lot of spare characters.
18:07:28 <tswett_> How do you do it?
18:07:37 <ais523> wait, maybe not
18:08:02 <tswett_> Now, it's easy to see that once you do /\///, you can't do any more substitutions.
18:08:09 <tswett_> So if we use that command, it has to be the last command.
18:08:38 <tswett_> And once you do /\\//, you can never do any substitutions involving either slash.
18:10:28 <ais523> I mean, looking at it from a strictly "how useful is this program" point of view, you only need to remove all backslashes with a run length > 2 then all slashes, and the remaining backslashes will just disappear as the rest of the program prints itself
18:11:04 <tswett_> Right, and that's really easy.
18:11:15 <tswett_> /\\\\///\///
18:12:05 <ais523> I think the last command has to be someting like /\\\///
18:12:11 <ais523> if it's possible at all
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18:12:19 <ais523> but it's hard to see how you'd get into a position for that to work
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18:25:44 <tswett_> I feel like I want to get to the point where I have a pretty good strategy against Basic Bot.
18:25:59 <tswett_> The set I'm using is...
18:26:13 <myname> whatjs this bot thing about?
18:27:05 <tswett_> Iso Kronus 5G; Shredder 5B; Lancetooth 6BAA; Drake 12BB; Apollo 13BBB; Cynestra 12GGGR; Hellhound 5BR; Centurion 18GGBBR.
18:27:08 <tswett_> ...where A is attack.
18:27:21 <tswett_> myname: Prismata. http://prismata.net/
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18:27:33 <tswett_> There are a whole lot of blue units.
18:28:07 <tswett_> I wonder if I can win using one blue as my only tech.
18:28:33 <shachaf> Against Pacifist bot?
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18:30:30 <myname> looks like another awesome game that i may not be able to play
18:31:28 <tswett_> shachaf: nah, Basic.
18:31:32 <tswett_> My guess is no, I can't do that.
18:32:15 <shachaf> "one blue" meaning that you build one Blastforge and then can use the blue every turn?
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18:32:45 <shachaf> You should almost certainly be building drones at the beginning.
18:32:51 <shachaf> Especially if you're going blue?
18:33:07 <shachaf> You're going to be in the wabe if you don't.
18:33:11 <shachaf> Economically speaking.
18:33:45 <ais523> "the area of grass surrounding a sundial"?
18:34:49 <shachaf> I just meant "way behind" in this usage.
18:35:02 <shachaf> I guess "wabe" also means "way before".
18:35:55 <myname> the one thing i am interested in are the supported plattforms and i fail to find that information
18:36:23 <shachaf> The supported platform is Adobe Macromedia Shockwave Flash.
18:36:34 <myname> srsly?
18:36:38 <shachaf> srsly
18:37:53 <tswett_> You can download a Windows client, but it uses Adobe Air.
18:37:55 <tswett_> Whatever that is.
18:38:07 <myname> that is interesting
18:38:24 <myname> in theory, adobe air allows porting to android
18:38:30 <shachaf> Poor tswett_'s Blastforge is gone now.
18:38:41 <tswett_> You watchin' me?
18:38:50 <tswett_> Well, I'd better continue playing.
18:39:10 <shachaf> Your strategy isn't very successful.
18:39:21 <tswett_> This is true.
18:40:46 <tswett_> So, going with one Blastforge only, and then buying only Shredders, doesn't work out too hot.
18:41:16 <tswett_> Let's try that again, then. This time, my tech shall consist of two Blastforges.
18:41:36 <shachaf> This doesn't seem like an effective strategy.
18:42:11 <shachaf> Somehow you're playing with the same set.
18:43:07 <tswett_> This is correct.
18:43:33 <shachaf> Well, with more drones your life is easier.
18:43:37 <tswett_> So with Drake, clicking and consuming a Blastforge gives you two attack.
18:43:42 <tswett_> Is that a permanent buff to Drake?
18:44:20 <shachaf> No, just the current turn.
18:45:10 <tswett_> So I'm essentially 5, or maybe it's 5B, to get AA.
18:45:35 <shachaf> It doesn't cost blue.
18:45:44 <shachaf> But if you have an extra blastforge you don't need, it's free.
18:46:01 <shachaf> And even if you don't, it threatens two every turn, whether you use it or not.
18:46:17 <shachaf> So if your opponent doesn't want to be breached they'll have to build extra defense.
18:47:13 <tswett_> That's true.
18:48:31 <shachaf> This pure-shredder strategy seems dubious.
18:50:48 <tswett_> Yup, it sure does.
18:53:55 <tswett_> Well this is kinda funny.
18:53:59 <tswett_> Let's see, am I gonna win?
18:54:10 <tswett_> Dunno.
18:54:24 <zzo38> I wrote a program it will send "\x1B[m\x1B[?6;7;66;67s\x1B[?42;66;69;1049h\x1B[?4;6;7;25;44;67l\x1B F\x1B[r\x1B%@\x1B(B\x1B)0" when it start and will send "\x1B[m\x1B[?42;66;69h\x1B[?4;6;7;25;44l\x1B%@\x1B(B\x1B)0\x1B[r\x1B[2J\x1B[H" when it stop but it failed to restore the cursor properly. Do you know what is wrong please?
18:54:49 <tswett_> The answer is yes, I am gonna win.
18:54:57 <tswett_> It'll just take a minute.
18:55:08 <tswett_> No, wait.
18:55:33 <shachaf> oh man
18:55:36 <shachaf> it's a draw
18:56:26 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I think some terminals just don't support saving and restoring the cursor, or not with the same sequence. what terminal are you using?
18:56:37 <zzo38> I am using xterm
18:56:42 <wob_jonas> perhaps you can ask for help from ais to debug that stuff
18:57:07 <tswett_> Does the game automatically declare a draw after a while?
18:58:33 <tswett_> If it hasn't done so by turn 103, I figure it's probably not going to.
19:00:30 <zzo38> Actually the code I used at the end is "\x1B[r\x0F\x1B[?25h\x1B[?69;1049l\x1B[?6;7;66;67r" I have instead copied from some other file by mistake
19:01:27 <tswett_> I'm gonna go eat food.
19:01:37 <shachaf> I think there used to be a "proffer draw" button but it might be gone.
19:04:06 <ais523> zzo38: you should probably add "\x1B7" before the "\x1B[?42;66;69;1049h" command, and "\x1B8" after the "\x1B[?69;1049l" command
19:05:52 <ais523> also, why do you turn on ?42 while starting, and not restore it whie ending? it's unlikely that you'd want to change that option at all in my experience
19:06:00 <ais523> (that won't affect your cursor problem though)
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19:16:24 <zzo38> O, OK, I will do that
19:17:29 <zzo38> That didn't fix it. Vim properly saves and restores the cursor, so why doesn't this program work?
19:18:01 <ais523> it's hard to debug this because you're sending so many codes, it's easy to miss the one that's causing the problem
19:18:28 <ais523> wait, how does the language you're using parse "\x1B7"? that needs to be an ESC and a 7, not a single U+01B7 character
19:18:45 <ais523> also, where does the cursor end up? that might be a clue
19:19:07 <zzo38> Cursor moved to the top of the screen
19:19:41 <zzo38> The language is JavaScript and it does parse "\x1B7" as ESC and then 7; I have tested that
19:20:50 <ais523> the code you're sending at the end is "\x1B[r\x0F\x1B[?25h\x1B[?69;1049l\x1B[?6;7;66;67r", right?
19:22:28 <zzo38> Yes, although I have now added 42 to the restore list and \x1B8
19:22:39 <wob_jonas> luckily almost all languages parse \x like C does, taking only up to two hexits
19:23:48 <ais523> that parses as "default scrolling region, select standard character set, set private mode 25 (which is 'show cursor'), disable private modes 69 and 1049 (which are 'left and right margins' and 'alternate screen buffer with cursor saving'), reset private modes 6, 7, 66, 67 (which are 'origin mode', 'wraparound mode', 'application keypad', 'backarrow sends backspace')"
19:24:28 <ais523> zzo38: actually, try moving the "\x1B[?6;7;66;67r" command to before the "\x1B[?69;1049l" command; I'm not 100% sure what modes 6 and 7 do but they look cursor-related
19:24:33 <ais523> so it's possible that resetting htem could move the cursor
19:24:33 <wob_jonas> ais523: huh, have you efd it to your terminal control sequence debugger in pretty-print mode?
19:24:40 <zzo38> OK I will try
19:24:44 <ais523> wob_jonas: no, I'm reading the docs
19:24:56 <ais523> I don't have a terminal control sequence debugger
19:25:03 <ais523> I do have a ton of different documentation on terminal codes though
19:25:07 <zzo38> That worked
19:25:10 <zzo38> Thank you
19:25:36 <zzo38> (I don't know why I did not think of that)
19:25:47 <ais523> the ESC 7 and ESC 8 aren't needed in a terminal that understands private mode 1049, but a) many terminals don't, b) xterm does but it can be configured not to
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19:26:12 <ais523> (I'm not sure why you'd configure it not to, but apparently this is a common enough request that it's requested repeatedly in the documentation; perhaps some programs use it inappropriately)
19:29:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes. in particular urxvt's docs patched with http://lists.schmorp.de/pipermail/rxvt-unicode/attachments/20130406/6745aceb/attachment-0003.patch (see http://lists.schmorp.de/pipermail/rxvt-unicode/2013q2/001780.html for context) documents a ton of escape sequences, although it doesn't document which terminals support which.
19:30:00 <wob_jonas> or the detailed behaviour
19:30:43 <ais523> nowadays I prefer to go by ecma-48, which isn't a terminal standard at all
19:31:12 <ais523> I guess the best way to think about it is this: imagine if HTML was originally designed back in the days before monitors were invented
19:31:29 <ais523> and people used it to write documents that would print out nicely on their printers
19:31:49 <ais523> then someone decided to invent the monitor, and decided that they'd implement a subset of HTML in order to encode various formatting
19:31:54 <ais523> not everything applies but much of it does
19:32:02 <ais523> that's basically the relationship between ecma-48 and terminal codes
19:32:34 <ais523> now, if you're adding a new feature to an HTML-based terminal, you'd try to take the corresponding HTML tag, right? so logically, new terminal features should be based on ecma-48
19:32:38 <ais523> (and in practice, many of them are)
19:33:03 <wob_jonas> "then someone decided to invent the monitor"
19:33:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ender scythe * New user account
19:34:14 <wob_jonas> "now, if you're adding a new feature to an HTML-based terminal, you'd try to take the corresponding HTML tag, right?" => or an HTML attribute, but sure, doesn't change the argument
19:35:02 <ais523> well yes, I was generalizing
19:35:20 <ais523> or, well, being imprecise as it was only an example
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19:52:50 <zzo38> I found a document it describes a few more kinds of time controls for chess and other games. One way is to have a main clock and a reserve clock. While your main clock is nonzero it counts down, and each turn you get an increment to add to your reserve clock. When your main clock is zero, then your reserve clock is used with no increments.
19:56:59 <zzo38> Another kind is to have a swing clock and reserve clock, each with initial nonzero values. Your swing clock is used while nonzero, and your opponent's swing clock increases during this time; if your swing clock is zero, your reserve clock is used and your opponent's clock doesn't increase. Your swing clock will be re-enabled once it is nonzero again.
19:59:00 <wob_jonas> zzo38: those two modes of timing are strang4e
19:59:33 <myname> wob_jonas: the word you are looking for is zooic
19:59:40 <myname> *zzoic
20:00:10 <wob_jonas> no, not really
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20:00:56 <zzo38> But I also thought of another variant which I have not seen in other documents, which is where the hourglass factor is not necessarily 0 or 1, but can be any number (although it should probably range from -0.5 to +1.0)
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20:06:26 <zzo38> I have seen other variants too and have also thought of various other variants of time controls.
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21:05:31 <boily> `wisdom
21:05:33 <HackEgo> auto//Auto is the German word for car.
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21:08:02 <shachaf> What's an automorphism?
21:08:06 <shachaf> `dowt auto
21:08:06 <myname> it kinda is
21:08:08 <HackEgo> 7110:2016-03-06 <oerjän> learn Auto is the German word for car.
21:08:37 <myname> automobil is almost always abbreviated auto in german
21:09:02 <shachaf> `` howg | grep 'rm -r'
21:09:05 <HackEgo> ​<oerjän> ` rm -r wisdom/is \ <shachäf> ` rm -r wisdom/d \ <FreeFul̈l> rm -rf wisdom/e
21:09:19 <shachaf> `` hoag | grep 'rm -r'
21:09:22 <HackEgo> ​<shachäf> ` rm -rf canary; mk \'canary//cat: canary: No such file or directory\' \ <jeffl4̈2> ` rm -rfv powershell* \ <shachäf> ` rm -r s/ \ <int-̈e> ` rm -r bin/SAVEDAT \ <shachäf> ` rm -r bin/bin \ <hppavilion[1̈]> ` rm -rf bin/lmg \ <hppavilion[1̈]> ` rm -rf lmg \ <xfïx> rm -r perl* # if at first you don\'t succeed... \ <fizzïe>
21:09:39 <myname> dafuq is happening
21:09:57 * Zarutian mutters something about sjálfsrennireið
21:10:13 <myname> ah, that
21:11:23 <shachaf> `1 hoat | grep 'rm -r'
21:11:26 <HackEgo> 1/5:<ellioẗt> run rm -r maketext \ <kallisẗi> paste ' rm -rf /; ' \ <Sgëo> run rm -rf p7zip_9.20.1 \ <ellioẗt> rm -r run \ <GreyKnigḧt> rm -r gktemp \ <GreyKnigḧt> rm -r luabuild \ <ellioẗt> rm -r canary; echo chirp >canary # restore it back \ <ThatOtherPersön> rm -r git-master \ <ThatOtherPersön> rm -r a/d \ <That
21:11:42 <Zarutian> myname: is an literal translation of auto-mobile into Icelandic. But most just use bíll which is dervived from the danish word bil, which is a sort for automobilen.
21:11:47 <boily> Zarutellon. "self slipping riding" ???
21:12:23 <Zarutian> boily: like you slip on skates or skis
21:13:11 <Zarutian> so slide would be closer
21:13:17 <int-e> . o O ( Kraftfahrzeug (yeah, it's more generic, but nicely bureaucratic) )
21:14:35 <boily> en:car → fr_CA:char.
21:15:00 <shachaf> californian french?
21:16:36 <Zarutian> cantonian french?
21:16:37 <ais523> zzo38: I've played under time controls where normally both clocks are stopped; you can start an opponent's clock during their move and if you do, the time they have for the move depends on how much time they had left on the clock on the previous move and how long they've been thinking for this move
21:16:43 <ais523> I don't quite know what the formula is
21:16:58 <ais523> but it's good for casual games where most players play quickly, but sometimes you encounter someone who stalls intentionally
21:17:20 <boily> hellochaf. French as spoken by Chinese immigrants in SoCal.
21:17:47 <ais523> actually a swing clock is a pretty interesting idea
21:18:03 <ais523> especially if the opponent's time increases only by a proportion of the time you spend, rather than the full amount
21:18:25 <zzo38> ais523: That is what I suggested with the "hourglass factor"
21:18:42 <ais523> yes, I thought it might be, but didn't have enough context to be sure
21:18:50 <ais523> I don't think you'd want a reserve clock under those rules
21:19:30 <zzo38> The reserve clock can be zero if you want to, which is like having no reserve clock
21:20:31 <Zarutian> can someone explain to me why chess feels so mechanistic?
21:20:38 <boily> `? chess
21:20:39 <HackEgo> Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation.
21:21:07 <boily> Zarutian: good chess is rote memorization. bette chess is more memorization.
21:21:13 <boily> s/te\b/ter/
21:21:24 <boily> s/oter/ote/
21:22:01 <zzo38> I have once had the time controls where I have: chess clock, grace time, shot clock, master clock, offer clock, special shot clock, increment time, byoyomi, and a lot of other stuff too
21:22:10 <ais523> what, all in the same game?
21:22:28 <Zarutian> boily: that explains it. I have always found parrot learning (which rote memorization is) boering as hell
21:22:31 <zzo38> Not necessarily, but a program could support them all at once if needed
21:23:36 <zzo38> Offer clock could be applied for example with offer to double in backgammon or a draw offer in chess, and maybe others too. I don't know what games might use a special shot clock though, but maybe you know
21:24:30 <ais523> also the normal rule in chess is that you can only make a draw offer between making a move, and pressing the clock button
21:24:41 <ais523> so in a way, the offer clock is combined with the regular clock
21:25:14 <ais523> (most people don't care much about the rules on the timing of offering draws, and so they're rarely enforced, they're only really useful if someone is making draw offers abusively)
21:25:59 <zzo38> I meant how much time the opponent has to respond to the offer
21:26:43 <ais523> oh, I see
21:26:49 <ais523> they get to respond until they've played their next move
21:27:07 <zzo38> O, OK
21:27:09 <ais523> there's at least one incident in which a player offered a draw after moving, their opponent thought about the move for a while
21:27:24 <ais523> and eventually resigned (presumably they forgot they could legally have taken the draw)
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21:38:08 <wob_jonas> do people play chess with an offer clock? I thought they play with a draw offer timing tied to moves instead of real time
21:38:28 <wob_jonas> but sure, it is rarely a problem
21:42:12 <zzo38> Another consideration is in Magic: the Gathering where a player might be required to make a choice even though he does not have priority (for example, during the resolution of a spell or if a spell or ability requires an opponent to choose a target or mode). If you are not implementing Magic: the Gathering on computer though then you could ignore these timing which are too difficult to implement anyways without explicit priority passes.
21:44:12 <wob_jonas> zzo38: luckily in duels, you can speed stuff up by allowing you to not wait for other people making choices, except before you would learn new information that was hidden from you.
21:45:00 <shachaf> zzo38: Would it be better if people passed priority explicitly?
21:45:37 <zzo38> shachaf: On computer it probably is, anyways.
21:46:14 <wob_jonas> zzo38: no, I don't think it's required even on the computer. sure, sometimes you want to pass priority or wait for an opponent's decision for strategy reason to avoid revealing info to your opponent
21:46:34 <zzo38> Since the computer could also easily implement shortcuts in a way that your opponent doesn't even know what shortcuts you are proposing at first
21:46:46 <wob_jonas> but most of the time you don't bother with that, and just play until just before you'd learn new hidden information, and if the opponent wants to interrupt earlier, you rewind the game
21:46:59 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like interrupts and instants?
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21:47:21 <wob_jonas> the computer can implement rewinding the game easily
21:47:55 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, although there are no interrupts anymore (due to the way the timing rules work differently, interrupts are no longer meaningful)
21:48:10 <shachaf> I mean: Do you like the distinction between them?
21:48:41 <zzo38> Only before fifth edition; I think there is no point for the distinction between them anymore
21:48:41 <shachaf> Do you like mana abilities?
21:48:48 <zzo38> Yes, mana abilities
21:49:06 <shachaf> I used to think that the way you cast a spell is to put all the required mana in your mana pool before you cast it.
21:49:37 <wob_jonas> shachaf: which part of mana abilities? the part where they don't use the stack, or the part where you can activate them any time you have to pay mana as part of a cost?
21:49:38 <shachaf> That would have been a pretty sensible system.
21:49:50 <shachaf> wob_jonas: All the parts.
21:49:52 <zzo38> You can, or you can add some or all of the mana during the mana step.
21:49:55 <wob_jonas> I think both parts are more or less necessary in the current design of Magic
21:50:05 <wob_jonas> what's "mana step"?
21:50:14 <int-e> oh, there's a 75 moves rule in chess?
21:51:06 <zzo38> "Mana step" is not an official terminology, but I made up to describe the rules; in some cases you get a chance to activate mana abilities even though you do not have priority, and I have called that "mana step".
21:51:29 <wob_jonas> zzo38: oh... but calling that a "step" is confusing
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21:53:58 <shachaf> What are clever things you can do with the way mana abilities work?
21:54:20 <wob_jonas> shachaf: clever in what way?
21:54:31 <shachaf> Any way.
21:54:51 <int-e> (The 75 moves rule allows the arbiter to declare a game drawn. It has a sibling that applies when a position is repeated 5 times. Both were added in 2014.)
21:55:37 <zzo38> I made up this custom card: Quickening Potion {3} Artifact ;; {3}, {T}: You may cast a non-land card in your hand. If you spent any mana to cast it, add {1} to your mana pool.
21:58:53 <wob_jonas> zzo38: don't we already have Vedalken Orrery, Savage Summoning, and Teferi for that sort of stuff?
21:59:50 <shachaf> Are those mana abilities?
22:00:12 <wob_jonas> oh... it's a mana ability, right
22:00:15 <wob_jonas> that's crazy
22:00:24 <wob_jonas> that probably shouldn't be allowed then
22:00:37 <wob_jonas> it could break the rules in unexpected ways
22:00:46 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure it does, but it coudl
22:01:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50297&oldid=50261 * Ender scythe * (+209) Added entry for ender_scythe.
22:01:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50298 * Ender scythe * (+2124) Created.
22:01:55 <wob_jonas> It could let you do crazy stuff between the steps of playing a spell or similar
22:02:10 <wob_jonas> or during declaring attackers
22:02:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50299&oldid=50297 * Ender scythe * (+69) Fixed ender_scythe's entry.
22:03:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50300&oldid=50298 * Ender scythe * (-1) Removed newline.
22:03:12 <wob_jonas> That's currently possible only in silver bordered land
22:03:19 <wob_jonas> maybe not even then
22:04:03 <ais523> mid-spell seems like the most potentially broken moment
22:04:17 <ais523> although, this would only let you /cast/ a spell during the resolution of a spell, it wouldn't /resolve/ then
22:04:33 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, so maybe it's not that broken, but still
22:06:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ender scythe]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50301 * Ender scythe * (+180) Created.
22:06:34 <wob_jonas> What happens if you cast a spell during another spell, and then casting the original spell has to be rewound because of illegal choices?
22:07:03 <wob_jonas> I think it could lead to stuff where the current rules don't quite explain how it works
22:08:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50302&oldid=50300 * Ender scythe * (-7) Edited creator link.
22:08:20 <zzo38> That is the potential problem I have thought of, but I don't know if there is actually the problem or not
22:08:24 <wob_jonas> Or you could get into strange situations when you cast a second spell during casting the first spell, but becuase the first spell potentially still might have to be rewound, you're not allowed to look at cards drawn or other hidden info,
22:09:02 <zzo38> That can certainly happen but that strange situation does not seem much of a problem to me.
22:09:51 <wob_jonas> Hey wati!
22:09:56 <wob_jonas> That actually breaks the whoel thing
22:10:02 <wob_jonas> um... maybe
22:10:31 <wob_jonas> no, probably no
22:11:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50303&oldid=50302 * Ender scythe * (-144) Fixed table.
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22:18:52 <wob_jonas> wait, what was the trick that let you draw a card during casting a spell in first place?
22:19:25 <zzo38> Chromatic Sphere
22:19:54 <wob_jonas> ah yes
22:22:44 <wob_jonas> Ok, so suppose I have Omniscience and that Potion in play. I start casting a Bear, during paying for it I first break a Chromatic Sphere, draw successfully, then drink the Potion, and use it to try to cast the card I draw. Since I can't look at that card, it counts as if it had no type, so it's not a land, so I can cast it. I don't have to pay the
22:22:44 <wob_jonas> mana cost or do anything else, so casting it succeeds. Should that be possible? I guess it should, at most it's a land and it will resolve as if it was a nonland card.
22:23:33 <wob_jonas> But what if it turns out to be a spell for which you'd have had to make choices during casting, and now it's resolving and you haven't made choices?
22:24:12 <wob_jonas> Maybe even that doesn't cause problems... I dunno
22:24:47 <zzo38> It also seems unclear what happens if that card moves out of your hand while it has no characteristics?
22:25:30 <zzo38> Also, I think its mana cost would be unpayable if it had no characteristics, which is not the same as {0}.
22:25:48 <wob_jonas> zzo38: that's why I said Omniscience
22:26:32 <zzo38> O, OK
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22:44:35 <wob_jonas> zzo38: ok, crazy question. Playing a draft with boosters randomly made from a crazy cube (not Wizards-released boosters). Opponent is controlling me. He makes me cast Death Wish. He can't look at my sideboard, so he just chooses a card at random. Since he can't tell if that card is a Conspiracy, should he call a judge to verify that it is or is not
22:44:35 <wob_jonas> ? If this happens during casting another spell with Potion, then am I allowed to look at what card he picked?
22:45:12 <wob_jonas> This can't happen with normal boosters because you won't find a Conspiracy (the card type, not the card) and Death Wish in the same event.
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22:46:05 <wob_jonas> Although... maybe if you're Conspiracy drafting with some of the draft rounds using a booster from different expansion set.
22:46:43 <zzo38> Yes, it could happen in that case, and I don't know what happens due to that case
22:48:00 <wob_jonas> I think the rules would say that you move the Conspiracy to your hand, and next time it would moved out from your hand it's immediately put into the command zone. You could even just try to cast it to get it back to the command zone, and reversing the attempt to cast probably won't bring it back.
22:49:04 <wob_jonas> Hmm... maybe it is put back.
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22:55:52 <wob_jonas> zzo38: ok, simpler version. During playing a bear, I break a Chromatic Sphere, draw a card, drink potion, cast that card blindly, it turns out to be a Vicious Hunger. What happens when Vicious Hunger would resolve? Does it get countered?
22:56:42 <wob_jonas> I guess it's not countered because it's not a spell that's targeting anything.
22:57:08 <wob_jonas> So I just gain 2 life and that's it.
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23:08:18 <zzo38> If your opponent controls you and forces you to take a card from your sideboard with Death Wish, no card is taken, although you will still lose half of your remaining life points. That is what they told me.
23:09:02 <wob_jonas> zzo38: oh... I didn't know. why?
23:09:12 <wob_jonas> and who are the "they"?
23:09:29 <zzo38> The other IRC
23:19:53 <wob_jonas> Can the declare attackers or declare blockers procedure get reversed due to some impossible action during or after paying costs for attacking or blocking with a creature (eg. Qal Sisma Behemoth)? I hope it can't get reversed by that time, but the comp rules don't quite support that.
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23:34:55 <Taneb> Today I made a program that solves Sudokus
23:36:38 <zzo38> The SQLite documentation gives a program that solves Sudokus written in SQL as one of its examples.
23:39:35 <wob_jonas> see also http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Sudoku
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23:44:42 <sdhand> oops
23:45:31 <oerjan> `relcome sdhand
23:45:35 <HackEgo> sdhand: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:47:24 <zzo38> I have made this terminal control package for use with Node.js: https://www.npmjs.com/package/tercon This could be useful to implement Rogue for example, too. I may also add other feature later on
23:47:36 <zzo38> Do you like this?
23:48:23 <wob_jonas> zzo38: another terminal control package? I'll have to look at it
23:49:20 <zzo38> (I mainly wrote it for my own use in case I wrote a program that uses it. When I want to do something it doesn't have then I may add new feature)
23:49:49 <wob_jonas> sure
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23:54:45 <oerjan> `slwd welcome.eo//s/irc.*/EFnet aŭ DALnet.)/
23:54:48 <HackEgo> welcome.eo//Bonvenon al la internacia centro por la desegno kaj ellaso de esoteraj programlingvoj! Por pli da informado, vizitu la Viki-on: <http://esolangs.org/>. (Por la alia speco de esotero, iru al #esoteric sur EFnet aŭ DALnet.)
23:58:25 <shachaf> `before
23:58:28 <HackEgo> wisdom/welcome.eo//Bonvenon al la internacia centro por la desegno kaj ellaso de esoteraj programlingvoj! Por pli da informado, vizitu la Viki-on: <http://esolangs.org/>. (Por la alia speco de esotero, iru al #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
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