←2016-12-20 2016-12-21 2016-12-22→ ↑2016 ↑all
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00:05:53 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, hi rdococ!
00:05:57 <hppavilion[1]> Didn't see you here
00:06:33 * hppavilion[1] adds "hppa" to dingables
00:07:43 <\oren\> hppa gangnam style
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00:08:14 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I no longer love you
00:08:22 <hppavilion[1]> Ich liebe \oren\ nicht
00:08:29 * hppavilion[1] just had his German final
00:23:06 <rdococ> okay, here's a thought experiment
00:23:28 <rdococ> imagine a fuzzy logic system, in which two variables, x and y, are both at 50%.
00:23:52 <rdococ> now, x & !x should be 0%, right? even if the quantum probability did collapse, it can only be one or the other, not both.
00:24:15 <rdococ> but since x and y aren't related, their combined probability is 25%.
00:24:45 <rdococ> ...hppa? any thoughts?
00:27:03 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: ...I don't think this is quantum, this is just normal probability
00:27:26 <rdococ> ...yeah you're probably right.
00:27:43 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Look up "probability amplitude" for funly quantumerific stuff
00:27:51 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: And fuzzy logic isn't necessarily probabilistic, it's just based on degree-of-trueness
00:29:01 <rdococ> that's... also true.
00:29:09 <rdococ> but the idea still stands
00:29:23 <izabera> is funly a word?
00:30:03 <rdococ> idk
00:31:10 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Depends on who gets to decide
00:44:35 <rdococ> unfortunately, wikipedia is the worst thing ever for learning (I had to find a demonstration website for quaternions... then I finally got them)
00:52:08 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I wouldn't say it's the worst thing ever for learning
00:52:12 <hppavilion[1]> Censorship is probably worse
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00:58:34 * boily lightly mapoles hppavilion[1] because I haven't mapoled anybody in a while
00:58:51 * hppavilion[1] lightly dodges
01:02:32 <Zarutian> so, anyone here affected by DropBox decision?
01:03:37 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: What decision?
01:03:45 <hppavilion[1]> Do I need to delete my account (which has nothing really in it)?
01:04:07 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: the decision to drop the ball on their Public Folders
01:04:51 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
01:05:10 <Zarutian> breaking links on the web left and right
01:07:12 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: Did they do it without warning?
01:07:35 <shachaf> `olist 1061
01:07:40 <Zarutian> thinking about adding rewriting feature in BBforum software so that any directly linked image hosted by a DropBox Public Folder
01:07:48 <HackEgo> olist 1061: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
01:07:51 <tswett_> Aaand DNS somehow isn't working.
01:08:01 <tswett_> This seems to tend to happen when I'm using certain public wiffies.
01:08:30 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: well people have to until end of March in 2017 but who is really going to go and notify all forums and people they have shared public folder links with?
01:08:47 <Jafet> breaking news: dropbox reaffirms that it is not a web hosting provider
01:09:27 <Zarutian> Jafet: breaking news, dropbox performs an bait and switch manouver over decades timescale
01:12:16 <Jafet> that's quite impressive, given that they have been around for under a decade
01:13:37 <Jafet> tswett_: clearly you should use Public DNS with public wifi
01:18:09 <boily> hellochaf. thachaf.
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01:20:19 <izabera> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fGwanAJk8c
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01:30:32 <Zarutian> Jafet: "over decades timescale" is just my indication of the size of the timescale 'unit' in this context, nothing more.
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01:59:15 <moonheart08> moo
01:59:35 <boily> mhelloo.
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02:50:29 <\oren\> I am stuffed
02:51:31 <\oren\> I ate a giant platter of wienerschnitzel, bread and fried sausages
02:51:56 <\oren\> I need to lie down and digest this meal
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03:40:50 <zzo38> I have some difficulty to understand any colour quantization algorithms, a bit
03:41:33 <zzo38> And, I would hope that my program it can support generating a palette even if some entries are fixed, and later to also add support for HAM and EHB modes.
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04:35:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Thoga31 * New user account
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05:05:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50547&oldid=50522 * Thoga31 * (+265) /* Introductions */
05:05:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Morsefuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50548 * Thoga31 * (+1260) Created page with "'''Morsefuck''' is an esoteric language completely based on Brainfuck. It is inspired by the obfuscation created by this language, but taking it even further. It was created o..."
05:06:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50549&oldid=50333 * Thoga31 * (+16) /* Brainfuck derivatives */
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05:16:06 <hppavilion[0]> I approve of this- wait, no
05:16:42 <hppavilion[0]> ...I've been too subtle. I'm taking a more extreme approach.
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05:18:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Morsefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50550&oldid=50548 * Hppavilion1 * (+105) It's dark times we're living in. Dark times indeed.
05:18:10 <hppavilion[0]> *sigh*
05:18:14 <hppavilion[0]> rdococ_: hellu
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05:19:40 <hppavilion[0]> \oren\: Shall I initialize the Brainfuck Ghetto?
05:20:50 <hppavilion[0]> thoga31: Oh, didn't notice you joined the channel.
05:21:19 <thoga31> hello :)
05:21:35 <hppavilion[0]> thoga31: I'm hppavilion[0], current chief of bf derivative control
05:21:49 <hppavilion[0]> Wait, I'm not hppavilion[0]
05:21:49 <thoga31> No problem, I already seen the page. I'm sorry, in fact I dind't read it.
05:21:51 <hppavilion[0]> One moment
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05:21:55 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
05:22:12 <hppavilion[1]> I've been considering with other members of this channel creating a dedicated page for minor derivations
05:22:33 <hppavilion[1]> Because there are *so* many derivatives that, if you click "Random Page", you statistically wind up in a derivative about half the time
05:22:47 <thoga31> I don't wnat to cause any "trouble"; so to speak :)
05:22:49 <hppavilion[1]> [not actually statistical. Just pidooma]
05:22:54 <hppavilion[1]> Good.
05:23:05 <thoga31> Should I delete the page?
05:23:11 <hppavilion[1]> I'm not sure you can
05:23:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Morsefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50551&oldid=50550 * Thoga31 * (-1365) Blanked the page
05:23:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Morsefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50552&oldid=50551 * Thoga31 * (+1365)
05:24:06 <thoga31> No I can't :)
05:25:27 <thoga31> I just created this for fun, in fact. A friend of mine challanged me to implement a brainfuck interpreter in Free Pascal and Python, and on the way I "created" this
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05:27:08 <hppavilion[1]> thoga31: Does it support []s properly?
05:27:27 <thoga31> yes, it does
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05:28:50 <thoga31> hppavilion[1]: My interpreter runs the Towers of Hanoi program by Clifford Wolf (though a bit slow). It uses LOTS of []s
05:28:58 <hppavilion[1]> OK, good.
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05:55:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Derivative Ghetto]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50553 * Hppavilion1 * (+4418) The Final Solution
05:57:17 <hppavilion[1]> May God have mercy on my soul.
06:03:02 <pikhq_> Eh, fair 'nough. I've literally written Brainfuck interpreters out of sheer boredom before...
06:03:22 <shachaf> What about derivatives?
06:03:42 <pikhq_> Don't really touch the stuff.
06:24:32 <zzo38> Another thing to write if you intend to write computer program but do not know what to write is you try to contribute to stuff such as my Farbfeld Utilities and so on.
06:32:49 <zzo38> It is a possibility, although there is also many other possibility, such as to make an experiment
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06:54:49 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Vco2UhQMX8
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06:55:11 <\oren\> I can't delete pages either
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07:27:34 <Jafet> you could create a mediawiki template to generate articles for brainfuck derivatives
07:29:45 <Jafet> ...and, after that, a template for trivial stack languages
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08:56:35 <zgrep> "This esoteric programming language has been encoded in the MediaWiki templates within this wiki. To use it, simply create a page in the following sandbox..."
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09:18:16 <b_jonas> oh! olist pinged me
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09:53:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Malbranche]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50554&oldid=49699 * Malbranche * (+1)
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10:18:55 <Jafet> C++: the real brain fuck
10:32:06 <Jafet> apparently, something called std::rel_ops has been in the standard for two decades, but does not work properly because of how the language's scoping rules are defined
10:34:02 <Jafet> but, unlike template export, it hasn't been removed
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11:04:50 <b_jonas> what? std::rel_ops doesn't work?
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12:06:23 <b_jonas> https://underhanded.rs/blog/2016/12/15/underhanded-rust.en-US.html "
12:06:25 <b_jonas> The Rust Community Team is pleased to announce the first annual Underhanded Rust Contest, inspired by the Underhanded C and Underhanded Crypto contests. "
12:18:14 <Jafet> b_jonas: it doesn't work indirectly, for example std::greater won't look up rel_ops::operator>
12:19:55 <b_jonas> Jafet: I beleive the supposed way to use rel_ops is that you put a class into a separate namespace, define operator< and operator== for that class as nm functions in that namespace, and using the other operators from rel_ops into that namespace.
12:20:16 <b_jonas> Then when code tries to compare objects of that class, it will find it through ADL lookup.
12:20:32 <b_jonas> That applies even to greater, because greater will find the operators with ADL lookup too.
12:21:04 <b_jonas> But in practice the whole thing isn't too useful, because in most code you just call < and == operators anyway, the other operators aren't necessary.
12:29:04 <int-e> Your search - site:rust-lang.org ADL - did not match any documents.
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12:34:10 <Jafet> hmm, I can't even get g++ to look up rel_ops::operator> automatically
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12:36:32 <Jafet> wait, the contest is for a buggy payment processor? if this was a mainstream language, people would just submit their actual systems
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12:43:28 -!- Guest54317 has changed nick to Gregor.
12:43:34 <Gregor> `ls
12:43:45 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ node-v7.2.1-linux-x64 \ node-v7.2.1-linux-x64.tar.xz \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test1 \ test2 \ tmflry \ tmp \ wdiff-latest.tar.gz \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
12:44:01 <Gregor> fizzie: It only took me months, but I did click two buttons ;)
12:44:09 <Gregor> Should have the changes merged in.
12:48:47 <int-e> there was something about reverse lookups too? hmm. something about emails from the wiki.
12:49:20 <int-e> of course right now that point seems rather moot: Host not found: 2(SERVFAIL)
12:50:02 <int-e> HackEgo: node, seriously?
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13:00:49 <fizzie> Gregor: For the future, would you mind if I add my fork as another URL and pull the commits from there, or do you want them to go through your review?
13:01:56 <Gregor> fizzie: Do you have root access on that machine? Why not just use your own fork.
13:02:06 <Gregor> I guess that's what you just asked X-D
13:02:08 <Gregor> Yeah, do that.
13:02:12 <Gregor> Don't trust me, I'm a lazy shit.
13:02:33 <int-e> just give fizzie the CaC credentials :P
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13:03:51 <int-e> (I don't even know whether that's possible on the level of a single VM, hmm)
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13:37:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Derivative Ghetto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50555&oldid=50553 * Enoua5 * (+1) Fixed broken tag
13:41:23 <b_jonas> whoa
13:41:37 <b_jonas> hi, Gregor!
13:42:49 <int-e> @time Gregor
13:42:49 <lambdabot> Local time for Gregor is Wed Dec 21 08:42:49
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13:44:40 <Gregor> <int-e> (I don't even know whether that's possible on the level of a single VM, hmm)
13:44:54 <Gregor> Maybe through the API?
13:45:18 <Gregor> Naw, looks like it's all per-account.
13:53:08 <int-e> pity.
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14:22:16 <int-e> Oh, I just used the wrong lanuage, ADL originates in C++.
14:23:16 <int-e> Perhaps ironically, "Koenig lookup" would have helped me more.
14:32:38 <b_jonas> "originates"? does any language other than C++ even has it?
14:33:30 <int-e> I don't know all programming languages. I'd imagine that D uses it as well.
14:34:01 <b_jonas> ugh... ok
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15:52:59 <boily> `wisdom
15:53:11 <HackEgo> wisdoom//Wisdoom is realizing just too late how you could have avoided your demise.
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16:37:58 <rdococ> fuzzy logic is more than having a percentage...
16:38:10 <rdococ> take x and y to be fuzzy logic values, both 50% each
16:38:26 <rdococ> now, x & !x = 0%, while x & y = 25%...
16:47:16 <boily> rdhellococ. fuzzy "x & y" is akin to min(x, y), so if "x = 0.5", then "x & !x = 0.5".
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17:08:57 <\oren\> I wonder if payment processing systems are still written in COBOL
17:11:32 <\oren\> there exists a gcc compiler of COBOL
17:12:32 <\oren\> but it's written in Lisp? ???
17:16:46 <newsham> are neural nets kind of like fuzzy logic with a non-linear thresholding func?
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17:18:24 <\oren\> newsham: each neuron, maybe, but the capabilities of a network depend highly on how they are trained and their topology
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17:20:15 <newsham> oh right, they're not programmed a priori (other than topology).. duh.. my bad
17:20:31 <newsham> so what if you had a statically programmed fuzzy logic system with a non-linear trigger func?
17:20:40 <newsham> would that be a lot diff than a standard fuzzy logic system?
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17:30:59 <boily> he\\oren\. COBOL in LISP???
17:32:10 <boily> newshellom. well, not much different. if you're chaining sigmoids (the canonical non-linear curve for perceptrons), you're approximating higher-degree polynomials.
17:32:52 <boily> instead of a single monotonic slope, you're freeing yourself to random curves.
17:35:10 <boily> fungot: are you linear?
17:35:10 <fungot> boily: it promotes a specific type of software engineering.... hold on, a bit
17:35:16 <boily> fungot: holding on...
17:35:17 <fungot> boily: ( or even " the current solution" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord? is especially ugly without infix". that phrase is
17:35:36 <boily> fungot: please balance your parentheses. )
17:35:37 <fungot> boily: now opening: fnord fnord. both are enormously fun. next time, or compile and install chicken eggs. even simple things like ' make i-know-what-i-am-doing' aren't supported yet.)
17:36:03 <boily> Fnord Fnord Fun for All!
17:36:41 <rdococ> bohelloc
17:36:58 <rdococ> I meant probability to be honest
17:37:01 <rdococ> not actual fuzzy logic
17:37:50 <rdococ> "x & !x = 0.5" makes sense, it's kinda like "is the glass less than half full AND less than half empty?"
17:38:08 <rdococ> as much as that makes sense...
17:38:39 <rdococ> I was talking about something more probabilistic - the chance of both x happening AND x not happening is 0%
17:39:08 <boily> that is the case.
17:39:59 <rdococ> this suggests to me that x is not equal to !x, even if both are 50% probable.
17:40:51 <rdococ> actually, you could have two variables who cannot both be true at once, so the result of their AND operation is 0%, but two other variables which are always true at once, and they have 50% together...
17:42:21 <rdococ> so probability value alone is not enough to determine the value of a probabilistic variable.
17:43:54 <rdococ> we could define them as expressions in terms of one or more pure probability variables
17:44:30 <rdococ> say a is a probabilistic number which could collapse into any real number between 0 and 1.
17:44:44 <rdococ> some variable x could be defined as the expression a < 0.5
17:45:01 <rdococ> then !x would mean a >= 0.5
17:45:36 <rdococ> !x is infinitesimally more probable than x, but x & !x is definitely impossible.
17:46:13 <rdococ> then an unrelated variable y might be equal to something like B < 0.5... and x&y is 25% probable.
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18:23:29 <zzo38> Maybe can be do like quantum states can be written as entangled too
18:25:46 <oerjan> yay Gregor
18:26:05 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa
18:26:15 <oerjan> `learn Testing is missing
18:26:38 <HackEgo> Learned 'testing': Testing is missing
18:26:42 <oerjan> `revert
18:26:44 <HackEgo> Done.
18:26:49 <oerjan> whee!!
18:26:55 <oerjan> `? testing
18:26:56 <HackEgo> testing? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
18:27:05 <oerjan> oh that should also test the other
18:27:44 <oerjan> `mk test//hi again
18:27:46 <shachaf> hi Gregor
18:27:48 <HackEgo> test
18:27:51 <oerjan> `? testing
18:27:52 <HackEgo> testing? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
18:28:10 <oerjan> IT WORKS
18:28:30 <shachaf> `revert
18:28:31 <HackEgo> Done.
18:28:45 <oerjan> `before
18:28:57 <HackEgo> test//hi again
18:29:07 <oerjan> `cat test
18:29:08 <HackEgo> cat: test: No such file or directory
18:29:20 <oerjan> STILL WORKS
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18:30:46 <boily> hezzo38, hellørjan, helloochaf.
18:30:54 <boily> Gregor is alive?!??!!?
18:31:03 <oerjan> and accepting PRs!
18:31:08 <boily> dun dun dun ♪
18:31:20 <oerjan> well he was alive 4 hours ago. it may be months until next time.
18:32:18 <oerjan> (bhelloily)
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18:32:40 <shachaf> pooch requests
18:33:06 <boily> poochpoochpoochpooch ♪
18:33:30 <oerjan> . o O ( avoiding words starting with p may be a bit too awkward )
18:33:49 <shachaf> it's p. awkward
18:34:19 <oerjan> `ls
18:34:21 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ node-v7.2.1-linux-x64 \ node-v7.2.1-linux-x64.tar.xz \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test1 \ test2 \ tmflry \ tmp \ wdiff-latest.tar.gz \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
18:34:36 <boily> `` rm wisdom.pdf
18:34:41 <HackEgo> No output.
18:34:49 <oerjan> `` rm -r node*
18:34:56 <HackEgo> No output.
18:35:14 <oerjan> i think that was an attempt to install node that failed because node has files larger than HackEgo's limit
18:35:39 <oerjan> (and i think this has happened before)
18:35:47 <oerjan> `lastfiles
18:35:51 <HackEgo> node-v7.2.1-linux-x64.tar.xz
18:36:19 <oerjan> `cat bin/lastfiles
18:36:20 <HackEgo> hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{files}\n" -- "$@"
18:36:40 <oerjan> `ls
18:36:42 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test1 \ test2 \ tmflry \ tmp \ wdiff-latest.tar.gz \ wisdom
18:37:08 <oerjan> oh right, the directory probably never got any files because of the unpacking failing
19:00:22 <Gregor> No, I'm not alive, stop imagining I'm alive.
19:01:31 <oerjan> OKAY
19:02:04 <shachaf> Gregor: I was at a talk where someone mentioned a paper you were a coauthor of.
19:02:09 <shachaf> I guess that was a while ago by now.
19:03:37 <boily> `addquote <Gregor> No, I'm not alive, stop imagining I'm alive.
19:03:48 <HackEgo> 1302) <Gregor> No, I'm not alive, stop imagining I'm alive.
19:09:24 <Gregor> shachaf: Yes, there exist papers I write ;)
19:10:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck Derivative Ghetto]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50556 * GermanyBoy * (+3158) /* I'm worried about this, please stop */ new section
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19:26:41 <boily> `? Gregor
19:26:48 <HackEgo> Gregor took forty cakes. He took 40 cakes. That's as many as four tens. And that's terrible.
19:32:17 <zgrep> So that's where my cakes went.
19:33:10 <boily> as long as he doesn't take all the fternooners, I'm fine with it.
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19:46:04 <\oren\> I wrote on paper once. I hated it, and switched back to writing on computers as soon as I could.
19:51:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck Derivative Ghetto]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50557&oldid=50556 * Keymaker * (+217)
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20:12:02 <shachaf> What about drawing diagrams?
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20:17:35 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: *cough*
20:18:06 <zzo38> I can wrote both on the paper and also on the computer
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21:06:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SumaMoito]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50558&oldid=43821 * Atrapado * (-312) remove broken link
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21:29:25 <FireFly> I learned the hard way that having a broken bouncing client is annoying to deal with..
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22:02:40 <Zarutian> a bit of a programming question for y'all: how do you do progress bars?
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22:06:47 <zzo38> What is it the progress of?
22:06:53 <fizzie> ▏ ▎ ▍ ▌ ▋ ▊ ▉ █ hth
22:07:49 <Zarutian> zzo38: lets say file download for simplicity
22:08:20 <Zarutian> zzo38: the file size is known at the start of the download.
22:09:17 <zzo38> You can multiply downloaded size by the size of the progress bar and divide by the total size of the file, and then you can fill that much of the bar. You can then add text for file size and estimated time.
22:09:53 <Jafet> fork the program into two processes and communicate through pv
22:11:26 <Zarutian> zzo38: now lets say it is for level loading in a game. The amount of stuff in the level is known at the begining. Same general method?
22:12:27 <zzo38> Zarutian: Yes, although there will be a few differences.
22:15:28 <zzo38> What game anyways?
22:19:25 <Zarutian> any game that has levels and loads each fully. (Too fast paced for continous loading)
22:20:51 <zzo38> Usually the similar thing will work
22:22:24 <FireFly> I guess for something like loading several files, you'll want to estimate how long it takes for one file (maybe using its size as proxy) and divide into chunks based on that
22:24:00 <Zarutian> FireFly: most level files use arrays of structures (with internal pointers, this is usually laid out or intrepreted) and you use the array sizes or such.
22:24:32 <FireFly> Well sure, most files in general use lots of arrays of structures :P
22:24:39 <FireFly> at least the ones I've looked at
22:24:50 <FireFly> Though I haven't looked at too many level file formats
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22:33:21 <zzo38> Depending on the game, it might or might not be that simple.
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22:34:51 <Zarutian> even a pessimistic estimate of total is good enough, no?
22:35:31 <zzo38> You can make a simple estimate if you have to; that will also work
22:39:47 <rdococ_> the file may be compressed (as was probably the case with some earlier games), and decompression time would also have to be taken into account
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22:46:52 <rdococ_> programming languages have conditionals like if, and loops like while
22:46:56 <rdococ_> what about when?
22:47:06 <rdococ_> when (something) { something else }
22:47:21 <rdococ_> aka events
22:48:00 <FireFly> "earlier games"?
22:48:08 <FireFly> Pretty much all games compress data files
22:48:34 <FireFly> most develeopers seem to enjoy inventing their own compression and archive formats for reasons that I haven't understood
22:49:04 <rdococ_> true...
22:49:10 <rdococ_> I was thinking that myself tbh
22:49:15 <zzo38> There are many different kind of compression that may be used, although sometimes the compression isn't very good; the compression MegaZeux uses is not so good but I have made up a better compression for MegaZeux
22:50:37 <rdococ_> and estimated time...
22:51:07 <rdococ_> estimated time is definitely not very accurate by - we can't tell the future without something ridiculous or fictional.
22:51:19 <rdococ_> ridiculous being impossible.
22:51:30 <zzo38> A Famicom game I made up called "Attribute Zone" loads/saves uncompressed levels on tape, although ROM levels are compressed with Huffman and RLE.
22:53:23 <zzo38> But, RLE only applies to some kind of tiles and not to all kind of tiles. Also it uses a single Huffman tree for all levels, although it is recomputed and recompiled into 6502 code whenever levels are added or changed.
22:53:52 <zzo38> rdococ_: You can just avoid estimated time if you need to I suppose
22:54:55 <rdococ_> I've entertained the possibility of a world where games are "told" like stories over the telephone, then telephone operators would be the gamemaster for the player
22:55:39 <FireFly> so over-the-phone tabletop RPG+
22:55:42 <FireFly> ?*
22:55:42 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
22:55:44 <rdococ_> yeah.
22:55:45 <Zarutian> rdococ_: re "when" well Monte has when but it is more like .then() used in promises (though you can let it wait for many promises to resolve)
22:56:19 <rdococ_> I've also entertained the idea of a "else" function used on its own without the if preceding it, and what it would do
22:56:47 <Zarutian> rdococ_: then there is the when construct one can make easily in Tcl/Ttk. That just checks and rechecks every time the even loop is idle.
22:57:16 <rdococ_> nah, I imagined when (event) {} as a way to listen for events
22:57:20 <FireFly> youbetterdothis-orelse! { stuff }
22:58:13 <rdococ_> put it this way - each program is composed of some variable and event declarations, and then a bunch of [when] constructs. user interaction would involve executing an available subset of all the events.
22:58:22 <Zarutian> while (<condition>) { <loop body> } else { <body that is done if the condition was never true> }
22:59:33 <rdococ_> when (<event>) { <body to execute when the event is called> }
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23:00:00 <rdococ_> in fact I created a mock-up of how my when idea would work in notepad++
23:00:10 <Zarutian> rdococ_: sound like both like Jule and event loop based programming.
23:00:14 <rdococ_> with the user defined language feature
23:00:20 <rdococ_> there's no loop to it though
23:03:22 <Zarutian> well, usually there is only one event loop that is running constantly after program initialization, and it just gathers events and dispatches them to the whatever is waiting for them.
23:03:39 <rdococ_> a program in my language would be called a machine, and it would be composed of variable/event declarations - along with the "user" modifier for events that the user can activate - and then listeners for each event that are added to some sort of register and are executed when the event is fired. no need for loops.
23:04:45 <rdococ_> register being a real world metaphor for check-in and check-out registers that hotels and schools employ.
23:04:49 <Zarutian> so basically state machines?
23:05:20 <rdococ_> ...yeah.
23:05:32 <Zarutian> the name event loop programming is just an artifact on how such event systems were first implemented.
23:05:40 <Zarutian> but you are basically describing such.
23:05:49 <rdococ_> oh okay...
23:06:24 <Zarutian> but do go on because you might discover something overlooked by others that have done stuff in this part of the noosphere
23:09:33 <rdococ_> still, it's easier to use than an actual fsm.
23:09:33 <rdococ_> fsm being an abbreviation for finite state machine. and easier to use meaning more ease of programming.
23:09:33 <rdococ_> you could have a HP variable, then an enemy attack script check if your HP <= 0 directly.
23:10:49 <rdococ_> okay, I guess
23:11:12 <rdococ_> brb need loo
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23:14:02 <rdococ_> back
23:14:13 <rdococ_> however, during my toilet break I realized that my language isn't a finite state machine.
23:14:46 <rdococ_> you see, you can do math on the variables.
23:15:34 <rdococ_> so you can do this:
23:16:19 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ_: What about me??
23:16:38 <rdococ_> when (leftBracket) { brackets += 1 }; when (rightBracket) { brackets -= 1; if (brackets < 0) { /* uh oh, right bracket where it shouldn't be */ } }
23:18:23 <rdococ_> hppavilion[1]: you're the second item of an array, how are you a language?
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23:18:42 <rdococ_> unless, where you live, languages are first class objects (which is well possible)
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23:24:05 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ_: (1) The arrays are indexed from 4 here (2) I was joking about the HP variable (3) WELL THEY ARE NOW
23:26:39 <moony> lol
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