←2017-01-16 2017-01-17 2017-01-18→ ↑2017 ↑all
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00:21:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50741&oldid=50738 * Oerjan * (+0) Order!
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00:34:30 <oerjan> @messages-blood
00:34:30 <lambdabot> int-e said 7h 45m 40s ago: http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20170106 http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20170116 ... am I the only one who's expecting that "Queen of the
00:34:30 <lambdabot> Dawn" to stab Martellus any moment now?
00:35:36 <oerjan> @tell int-e hm i hadn't thought of that, i was assuming she'd try to wasp him or whatever she's done to control the northern sparks
00:35:36 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
00:47:50 <hppavilion1> Helm, the wiki doesn't support SVG
00:48:29 <hppavilion1> I made an svg of K_5- that I can't find a place to put, and I thought of going for the wiki (it'd probably have use elsewhere as well), but the wiki doesn't seem to support svg
00:49:40 * oerjan points at fizzie
00:49:59 <oerjan> anyone else probably can't fix it.
00:50:12 <hppavilion1> Wait, it's a derivative of a Wikipedia one, so it can't go on the wiki, can it...
00:50:12 <oerjan> (well technically Gregor could)
00:50:21 <oerjan> that's true.
00:50:42 <hppavilion1> Fuck.
00:51:45 <Gregor> I have access, but I didn't set it up and know nothing about its setup/configuration/etc.
00:51:59 <oerjan> thus "technically"
00:52:08 <Gregor> Indeed.
00:52:23 <fizzie> I just migrated it over, and know next to nothing about MediaWiki, but I'm a bit surprised at not having SVG support. Maybe it needs a thing.
00:52:51 <fizzie> Apparently it still needs to be explicitly enabled.
00:53:02 <fizzie> (And the SVG converter selected.)
00:54:51 <oerjan> i'd have thought someone would have used SVG already - there are all kinds of pictures on the wiki these days.
00:55:19 <oerjan> (or so i hear)
00:56:06 <int-e> oerjan: same idea, stabbing just sounds more dramatic ;)
00:56:57 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, but they're all jeipegs, pengs or jiffs.
00:57:07 <fizzie> Possibly because we haven't enabled SVG support.
00:57:44 <oerjan> fizzie: are you trying to give people pronunciation aneurysms, it won't work on me though
00:58:34 <int-e> use tiff, the pronouncible image format!
00:59:19 <oerjan> *ea
01:00:23 <int-e> (I think that's about the only positive thing that can be said about tiff, unless you count flexibility as an advantage)
01:00:52 <int-e> you know, the "union of N standards" kind of flexibiity.
01:01:25 <fizzie> I believe it's still somehow the high-bit-depth image format everyone uses.
01:05:08 <oerjan> Das tiffste Format
01:05:40 <int-e> hmm, why am I playing gplanarity...
01:05:43 <fizzie> I believe 16-bits-per-channel PNGs were a thing all the way from PNG 1.0, and still people put that stuff in tiffs.
01:06:31 <fizzie> There's a planarity game in the sgtatham puzzle collection.
01:06:56 <fizzie> I play it on my phone sometimes.
01:08:20 <int-e> but gplanarity has the twist that many levels are actually based on crossing numbers
01:09:32 <hppavilion1> fizzie: Yeah, I saw that
01:09:33 <fizzie> I think I played gplanarity as well. It's definitely more elaborate.
01:09:46 <int-e> so you get "Objective: 3 intersections" or "Objective: fewer than 7 intersections"
01:09:58 <hppavilion1> fizzie: It needs to be turned on, but it doesn't appear to need an extension or anything crazy
01:10:59 <fizzie> Well, it does need a converter for rendering. Though the (un-recommended) ImageMagick is probably on already.
01:11:14 <int-e> (and you get bonus points for lower numbers of intersections, argh)
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02:21:51 <hppavilion1> `? hppavilion1
02:22:07 <HackEgo> higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / be left perplexed
02:22:13 <hppavilion1> Oh, I dropped my []s D:
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02:22:45 <izabera> much better
02:25:43 <oerjan> `wisdom hppa
02:25:45 <HackEgo> hppavilion1//higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / be left perplexed
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03:44:44 <hppavilion1> `? oerjan
03:44:50 <HackEgo> Your wise @messages-lord fanfic oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Glasswegian who dislikes Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience; but lately it's the only word he can ever remember. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
03:44:59 <izabera> WHERE ARE YOUR []S
03:45:19 <hppavilion1> izabera: AAAAGH
03:46:55 <hppavilion1> oerjan: Do you ever say 'Uff da' (sometimes also spelled huffda, uff-da, uffda, uff-dah, oofda, ufda, ufdah, oofta, or uf daa)
03:48:10 <oerjan> nowhere near as commonly as the minnesotan stereotype, i hear
03:48:30 <oerjan> also i would say "uff då" in my dialect.
03:49:52 <hppavilion1> oerjan: Nyorsk or Bokmål?
03:50:10 <oerjan> nynorsk and bokmål aren't dialects hth
03:50:26 <oerjan> although it's accidentally identical to the nynorsk spelling, i think
03:50:35 <hppavilion1> Oh
03:51:29 * hppavilion1 is 1000000000 ppb Norwegian on his father's side
03:52:12 <hppavilion1> Oh, maybe not
03:52:16 <oerjan> i speak a northern norwegian dialect. we tend to chop off suffixes on things...
03:52:51 <oerjan> especially the infinitive.
03:54:55 <oerjan> i suppose i would use "uff då" more if i was the kind of person to try hard not to swear...
03:55:14 <oerjan> it's really sort of a very weak euphemism.
03:55:59 * \oren\ is ~10% irish but doesn't knwo any irish
03:56:43 <\oren\> I barely know any french either.
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04:06:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50742&oldid=50741 * Dpleshkov * (+86) /* Introductions */
04:07:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiniBitMove]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50743 * Dpleshkov * (+538) A two-command esoteric language
04:08:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiniBitMove]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50744&oldid=50743 * Dpleshkov * (-9)
04:10:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50745&oldid=50688 * Dpleshkov * (+18) /* M */
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04:29:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50746&oldid=50742 * Oerjan * (+0) ORDER, i said
04:30:09 <oerjan> suddenly there are two in a day who put it at the beginning.
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06:15:10 <pikhq> Huh. Norway might be the easiest country to immigrate to, legally speaking, period.
06:19:25 * oerjan surprised
06:22:22 <oerjan> i haven't really been paying attention though
06:24:28 <pikhq> If you don't mind being Svalbard, the requirements to move to Norway are: afford a plane ticket.
06:24:38 <oerjan> oh svalbard
06:24:48 <pikhq> *being in Svalbard.
06:24:48 <oerjan> yeah, of course.
06:25:21 <oerjan> just be aware that you're then not included in the general norwegian welfare system.
06:25:26 <pikhq> True.
06:25:40 <pikhq> But, 7 years later you can apply for citizenship.
06:25:55 <pikhq> Which, granted, seems like *more* than sufficient payment in exchange for living there. :P
06:26:01 <oerjan> heh
06:30:18 <pikhq> Of course, I imagine it's a bit tricky being *employed* in Svalbard.
06:33:47 <oerjan> i vaguely think there are various research facilities.
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06:35:00 <pikhq> Yes, I was more referring to the fact that it's sparsely populated.
06:35:01 <hppavilion2> Testing
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06:35:18 <pikhq> 2,600 people "sparse".
06:35:25 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: TESTING
06:35:30 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Pong
06:35:31 <hppavilion[1]> @massages-lud
06:35:31 <lambdabot> boily said 3d 18h 21m 29s ago: hppavellon[1]. please peruse the unbracketed message.
06:35:50 <hppavilion[1]> Dammit, hppavilion1 is not a registered nickname
06:35:53 <hppavilion[1]> So I can't ghost it
06:36:11 <hppavilion[1]> Helm, my computer says I have no internet
06:36:13 <hppavilion[1]> But I'm here
06:36:14 <hppavilion[1]> So
06:37:08 <hppavilion[1]> hppavilion1 should time out aaaaaanyyyy second now
06:37:26 <oerjan> it's connecting from the same ip you are, there ought to be _some_ way for you to kill it :P
06:37:32 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I know
06:37:33 <hppavilion[1]> But
06:37:42 <hppavilion[1]> I only have one instance of HexChat open
06:37:52 <pikhq> Of course, *sparsely* populated is different from "literally no population": there are in fact real, permanent jobs in Svalbard, and if you really wanted to you certainly could move there and live there as long as you felt like.
06:37:54 * hppavilion[1] notes that e needs to readd his CTCP replies
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06:38:15 <hppavilion[1]> YEEEEESSSS
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06:38:22 <hppavilion1> THERE CAN BE ONLY n
06:38:27 <hppavilion1> (please solve for n)
06:38:30 <hppavilion1> @massages-lud
06:38:30 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
06:38:32 <hppavilion1> ...
06:38:36 <hppavilion1> *sigh*
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06:38:51 <hppavilion2> Test
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06:38:58 <hppavilion[1]> -_-
06:39:12 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: I REALLY WANT TO
06:40:05 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Well, as I was previously discussing, here is how you move to Svalbard: get a job there. Move.
06:40:20 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Interesting strategy...
06:40:24 <pikhq> You, yes you, have the legal right to permanently live in Svalbard.
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06:43:57 <hppavilion[1]> *sigh*
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07:15:56 <Jafet> so svalbard is like the bay area, then?
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11:33:49 <b_jonas> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/3592.html heh heh heh heh heh
11:33:57 <b_jonas> smitten
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11:45:36 <FireFly> the part I'm wondering is if legally living in Svalbard counts toward getting a permit for living in Norway
11:48:02 <FireFly> "Generally, it is possible to naturalise as a Norwegian citizen after residing in Norway seven years over the last ten years, if the applicant qualifies for permanent residence and does not have a criminal record.[citation needed]"
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13:24:47 <Morph1> Hello greetings to all
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13:30:06 <b_jonas> wait, I don't get this.
13:30:11 <ais523_> this may be the first time I've used the underscore in months or even years?
13:30:35 <ais523_> @seen ais523_
13:30:35 <lambdabot> AI$523_
13:30:40 <ais523_> ?
13:30:47 <b_jonas> does Aether Revolt (the latest expert M:tG expansion set) have two different Ajani Planeswalkers, none of which are reprints? and why?
13:30:56 <ais523_> b_jonas: sort of
13:31:10 <ais523_> one of them is from an introductory set called Aether Revolt: Planeswalker Decks
13:31:14 <b_jonas> Neither of them are double-faced or flip or anything, right?
13:31:23 <ais523_> the cards in it are intentionally underpowered in order to prevent anyone but new players wanting htem
13:31:25 <ais523_> *them
13:31:41 <ais523_> but they like to include a planeswalker in the decks because planeswalkers are splashy and new players like owning them
13:31:48 <b_jonas> ais523: ah yes, planeswalker decks, that thing that replaces core sets
13:31:51 <ais523_> so it's an intentionally powered-down planeswalker for the purpose of the product
13:31:59 <ais523_> it's Standard-legal but won't appear in boosters
13:32:04 <b_jonas> that would explain it
13:32:30 <b_jonas> no wait
13:32:37 <b_jonas> that's "Welcome Decks"
13:32:40 <b_jonas> now I'm confused
13:32:55 <ais523_> well, the explanation makes sense to me at the most superficial level
13:32:58 <b_jonas> all these stupid products they're doing
13:33:05 <ais523_> however it's an indicator of deeper decisions that may be harder to explain
13:33:24 <ais523_> planeswalker decks are the replacement for duel decks I think
13:34:02 <b_jonas> I concluded that Welcome Decks are basically the continuation of core sets, only they don't come with boosters
13:34:21 <ais523_> they're very different from core sets
13:34:38 <ais523_> core sets used to be where they printed basic effects like Lightning Strike in order to ensure that they stayed in Standard
13:35:05 <ais523_> welcome decks are basically just a small selection of cards to act as a teaser for new players to get them excited, they're given away for free
13:35:25 <ais523_> planeswalker decks are the entrance-level paid product, but are very weak
13:35:29 <b_jonas> ais523_: and? don't Welcome Decks contain such basic effects too? they're standard and modern legal for a while.
13:35:45 <ais523_> not at any level of power
13:36:09 <ais523_> this has indirectly lead to removal becoming very weak recently, which might indirectly have lead to the bannings
13:37:21 <b_jonas> I see...
13:38:10 <ais523_> incidentally, I predicted a while ago that there'd be standard bannings while Kaladesh block was in Standard, but I didn't realise they'd come so soon
13:38:43 <ais523_> and it's at least partly a side effect of BFZ block being terrible and SOI block being balanced incorrectly, rather than of Kaladesh block itself
13:40:29 * ais523_ wonders why Java has a UnicastRemoteObject but no other sorts of RemoteObject, the "Unicast" qualifier looks a lot like it's disambiguating something but it apparently has nothing to disambiguate?
13:45:06 <b_jonas> ais: Magic 2015 and Origins have extra cards that don't occur in boosters but only in precon decks, are all reprints, are standard (and modern) legal for as long as the core set is, and are printed with the expansion symbol of the core set. they're not cards most players want. I assume that Welcome Deck is a continuation of the same thing, because it's also all precon decks, no boosters, all reprints, standard legal for a rotation, they just don't have a
13:45:14 <b_jonas> \ I assume that Welcome Deck is a continuation of the same thing, because it's also all precon decks, no boosters, all reprints, standard legal for a rotation, they just don't have an associated core set.
13:46:43 <b_jonas> Welcome Deck 2016 is that product, I assume it'll be a series of products because it has a number, it's published about a year after Origins.
13:47:46 <b_jonas> Welcome Deck 2016 apparently has 5 decks of 30 cards each, although I couldn't find decklists of them, but 30 cards is ridiculous if it was really intended to be played as precon decks, after they specifically made core sets starting from M2010 (IIRC) have 60 card precon decks rather than 40 card ones so that players can play them immediately.
13:48:39 <b_jonas> As for the Planeswalker Decks, I don't understand what they are, so I'm fine believing they're like duel decks, some of which also had planeswalkers.
13:49:52 <ais523_> Welcome Decks are purely intended for new players to get an idea of what the game is like, I think they're only meant to be played against other Welcome Decks
13:49:58 <b_jonas> Planeswalker decks are 60 card decks with slightly fancy packaging, so that's quite possible.
13:51:17 <b_jonas> "only meant to be played against other Welcome Decks" => that sounds sort of strange. I mean, if you want to give new players a feel of what the game is like, then a deck they can customize by replacing cards and still play sounds like it would be a better idea (even if they aren't actually _good_ at deckbuilding yet)
13:52:05 <ais523_> they want people to spend money at that point :-P
13:52:13 <ais523_> the point is that the Welcome Decks are given away for free
13:52:39 <b_jonas> http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/ramp-approval-2016-05-16 says "The cards in [Welcome Decks] are Standard-legal and you can combine any two sample decks to make a deck legal at a Standard tournament."
13:56:43 <b_jonas> "Java has a UnicastRemoteObject but no other sorts of RemoteObject, the "Unicast" qualifier looks a lot like it's disambiguating something but it apparently has nothing to disambiguate?" => could be a disambiguation against potential future additions?
13:57:17 <ais523_> it's possible, I guess
13:57:40 <ais523_> I'm not even sure what a MulticastRemoteObject or BroadcastRemoteObject would be semantically, thoguh
13:57:43 <ais523_> *though
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13:59:50 <b_jonas> ais523_: as an example, the C++14 standard has classes mutex, timed_mutex, and shared_timed_mutex. timed means you can do a timed wait on it, which isn't the default because it gives overhead even if you don't use that feature; shared means it's a read-write lock.
14:00:27 <b_jonas> there's no shared_mutex in that standard, but they opted to put "timed" into shared_timed_mutex because they decided maybe in the future they'd add a non-timed shared_mutex.
14:00:47 <b_jonas> and shared_mutex is indeed planned for the future C++17 standard.
14:15:45 <b_jonas> The first M:tG product I bought was the blue-black theme deck of Coldsnap, called "Snowscape". This one includes 23 snow-covered basic lands, and they're really needed too, because a lot of cards care about snow mana or snow permanents, Rimewind Taskmage the most importantly.
14:17:27 <ais523_> huh, you started only just after me, then (I started with 9th edition, which is 4 sets earlier)
14:17:41 <ais523_> but I gave up early during Lorwyn and haven't continued since
14:17:41 <b_jonas> The snow lands are the most expensive part of the deck, costing more than the rares. No wonder, since they're almost always better than basic lands, which is something Wizards rarely dares to do, and they aren't legendary.
14:18:14 <ais523_> basically because I got my cards via booster packs and I didn't see anything to inspire me in the first few Lorwyn boosters I opened
14:18:33 <b_jonas> I didn't say I _started_ then. It's the first product I owned, not the first one I played. I started one earlier, during Dissension.
14:18:43 <ais523_> oh, even closer then
14:19:28 <ais523_> I admit I rather like Coldsnap, even if most people consider it to have been a bad idea
14:19:48 <ais523_> cards like Martyr of Sands and Rite of Flame are both really interesting (although Rite of Flame ended up getting banned in Modern...)
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14:21:50 <b_jonas> (I know it's Dissension, not earlier in the Ravnica block, becuase Sky Hussar was in the first decks I played with.)
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14:23:56 <b_jonas> I also think the snow lands are sort of a bad idea. Think about it: you need 23 to build your deck, this applies to a lot of decks, because even in decks that have less of a snow theme than this precon, they're almost surely better than ordinary basic lands, but they're distributed only as commons. It's the same mistake as early core sets made by distributing basic lands only as commons,
14:24:49 <b_jonas> except by the time of Coldsnap they should have known about this problem.
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14:28:17 <b_jonas> It's worse than when they printed tribal themes that require you to get 30 elves or 30 clerics or 30 soldiers for your deck, because there's only five snow-covered basic lands (there are other snow mana producers but they aren't nearly as good as basics), whereas there are tons of different elves and soldiers and clerics in lots of previous sets.
14:28:43 <ais523_> when snow lands were originally printed, there were a bunch of snow land hosers printed at the same time
14:28:48 <ais523_> to make it a decision whether you wanted them or not
14:28:58 <ais523_> by Coldsnap, though, they decided that was a bad iae
14:29:01 <ais523_> *idea
14:29:25 <ais523_> anyway, one of the issues I have with Magic is that the average quality of a playable land appears to be higher than that of a basic land
14:29:31 <ais523_> in most formats, people hardly use basics
14:29:49 <ais523_> maybe one or two to allow for enemy nonbasic hosers
14:30:25 <ais523_> also, I think Boreal Druid and Scrying Sheets are probably the best nonbasic snow mana producers
14:31:41 <b_jonas> there are a few snow land hosers, sure, but not many
14:34:53 <b_jonas> and the problem isn't only snow mana producers, but also Snow permanents and Snow lands, because this theme deck has a lot of cards caring about that: Rimewind Taskmage (of which the precon has 3 but you want 4 really), Balduvian Frostwaker, Rimefeather Owl, Heidar etc.
14:35:08 <ais523_> anyway, the snow lands are fairly balanced, in that they have a notable opportunity cost (you can't run nonbasics instead)
14:35:38 <ais523_> but this is more an issue with nonbasics being broken than with snow lands being nonbroken
14:36:21 <ais523_> High Tide plays a bunch of blue-fetching lands even though it has nothing but Islands to fetch, for example (mostly for the free shuffle)
14:36:31 <ais523_> and they have a lot of functionality on top of that!
14:37:42 <b_jonas> "the average quality of a playable land appears to be higher than that of a basic land" => isn't that in a large part because of ravnica rare dual lands, which also raise the value of the one and half search land cycles?
14:38:12 <ais523_> I think the fetch lands are better even in the abstract than the shock lands
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14:38:31 <ais523_> however, filter lands are also considered very good (it's just that fetch, shock, and Alpha duals are better)
14:39:18 <b_jonas> It's true that even if you only buy cheap cards like me, nonbasic lands are often worth in many decks,
14:39:21 <ais523_> and fastlands (the ones that come into play tapped if you already have too many other lands) are playable in Modern as well
14:39:34 <b_jonas> both because they're flexible, as in, I can buy a nonbasic once and put it to many different decks,
14:40:51 <b_jonas> and because some really seem almost better than basic lands in some decks (I've used Ancient Ziggurat even though I'm not even building sliver decks).
14:42:22 <ais523_> `card-by-name Ancient Ziggurat
14:42:38 <HackEgo> Ancient Ziggurat \ Land \ {T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast a creature spell. \ CON-U, H09-U
14:42:48 <ais523_> that doesn't seem very sliver-related
14:42:58 <ais523_> although I guess sliver decks tend to have a higher proportion of creatures than most
14:43:02 <b_jonas> (I also used Terramorphic Expanse for color fixing and free shuffle, but I haven't manged to make that deck work well YET, so it doesn't count.)
14:43:26 <ais523_> what set is H09, anyway? I'm guessing CON is Conspiracy 1?
14:43:45 <b_jonas> CON is Conflux (in the Alara block)
14:43:52 <ais523_> ah right
14:44:20 <ais523_> I guess a syllable duplication would be inevitable by now
14:44:36 <b_jonas> cough Legends Legions cough
14:44:53 <ais523_> that's not a duplicated syllable, just a duplicated first three characters :-P
14:45:13 <b_jonas> It's true that sliver decks have a lot of creatures, but that's also true to many other tribal decks like elf decks; but also Sliver decks are often multicolor (there are two-color, three-color, and five-color versions), and they're very easy to build powerful in casual constructed.
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14:47:54 <b_jonas> Two-color ones might not need anything special apart from the Gemhide/Manaweft sliver you almost certainly put in any sliver decks, but three-color sliver decks want a lot of color fixing, and the Ziggurat and Cavern of Souls help a lot there.
14:48:23 <ais523_> the best deck I own is a five-colour sliver deck that's base green
14:48:31 <ais523_> it fixes just fine on /just/ Gemhides
14:48:43 <ais523_> and a fairly random assortment of lands, and a couple of Coalition Relics
14:48:55 <ais523_> (Manaweft Sliver hadn't been printed at the time)
14:49:00 <b_jonas> And the Ziggurat is cheap because it got printed as uncommon, unlike many of the more powerful color fixers. (Ravnica has the karoos and the signets as a big exception.)
14:49:02 <ais523_> (although it's better in basically every case)
14:50:26 <b_jonas> And the deal is, sliver decks were already good in casual before Time Spiral, and they've printed more slivers in the Time Spiral block and M14 and M15 since, which made them better.
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14:52:45 <b_jonas> ais523_: how much does that five-color sliver deck need many colors early?
14:53:01 <ais523_> most of its early plays are gemhide sliver and virulent sliver
14:53:13 <ais523_> the red and white cards are mostly toolbox cards
14:53:36 <ais523_> it's mostly aiming to play dormant sliver and then go into an infinite loop (the virulent slivers are to force the opponent to spend their removal early)
14:53:48 <b_jonas> I see
14:54:00 <ais523_> I might consider adding Beck to the deck if I ever updated it to a Modern version
14:54:36 <ais523_> because the basic idea is that if you have gemhide + basal sliver, plus a sliver that gives haste
14:54:41 <ais523_> plus dormant sliver
14:54:50 <ais523_> each sliver you play gives you back 2 black mana + 1 of any colour
14:54:54 <ais523_> plus a card
14:54:59 <ais523_> so you can pretty much just churn through your deck
14:55:28 <ais523_> (the more slivers you have in hand and the more lands on the battlefield you have, the less likely it is to fizzle out)
14:55:45 <ais523_> it also plays Wild Pair, which is fairly easy to find because you're churning through the deck so far
14:55:59 <ais523_> and basically immediately wins when you play it, unless the opponent can beat you or destroy the enchantment before your next turn
14:57:09 <b_jonas> Beck => interesting idea. I used Distant Melody and Ideas Unbound to churn through a deck quickly. These work even as a splash in a deck that's not very blue, because you play them late.
14:57:29 <ais523_> the deck generates so much mana that it could probably cast Beck//Call on occasion too
14:57:53 <b_jonas> (Thoughtcast and perhaps Keep Watch could also help for this.)
14:58:47 <b_jonas> But Beck and Dormant Sliver are better because you can repeat it by bouncing permanents. Just like the Soul sisters.
14:58:58 <ais523_> the deck had one Whitemane Lion in it
14:59:02 <ais523_> there are probably better choices for that nowadays
14:59:06 <rdococ> ih
14:59:31 <b_jonas> I've even played against an entire white deck that tries to have a lot of bounces (including Norin) and lot of triggers for when a permanent etb (not only the Sould Sisters).
15:00:17 <b_jonas> Um... that doesn't square. Probably not a _white_ deck then, if it includes Norin.
15:01:10 <ais523_> you're thinking of Norin Soul Sisters
15:01:17 <ais523_> it is a primarily white deck, it splashes red for Norin
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15:04:12 <b_jonas> It's not only Soul Sisters, it has some other cards to trigger stuff.
15:05:08 <b_jonas> The Soul sisters are the least surprising card really: those cards are just too good in casual because they work in many different decks, and lifegain is worth more in casual constructed than in competitive formats probably.
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15:05:36 <b_jonas> (Congregate is a bit similar.)
15:06:10 <ais523_> lifegain is really good against aggro, that's what normally causes it to be played competitively
15:06:25 <ais523_> as a method of surviving the early onslaught of aggro decks and burn decks
15:08:15 <b_jonas> ais523_: there's also that casual games last for more turns than competitive ones, have many creatures in play more often because less board sweep, multiplayer casual games last especially longer, and the soul sisters and congregate like when other players use creatures too, which happens more in casual and even more in multiplayer.
15:08:58 <ais523_> oh, everyone uses lots of creatures in Standard nowadays
15:09:11 <ais523_> because they're so powerful compared to the other card types (except arguably planeswalkesr)
15:10:05 <b_jonas> Don't they also use board sweepers (as in Day of Judgment) in standard, as opposed to casual?
15:10:25 <ais523_> no, there are no good board sweepers in standard
15:10:47 <b_jonas> I remember back in the old days before the soul sisters came out, we even used the Angel's Feather cycle for lifegain, which is similarly better in multiplayer.
15:11:02 <rdococ> ihh
15:11:18 <ais523_> rdococ: are you complaining that the conversation's offtopic?
15:12:11 <rdococ> no, I'm reversing hi and duplicating the h
15:12:31 <ais523_> fair enough
15:12:44 <ais523_> I actually have ideas for a dupdog/xigxag-alike at the moment
15:12:48 <ais523_> but haven't worked out the exact rules
15:13:42 <rdococ> _325siaa
15:14:37 <ais523_> ^bf >,[>,]<[.<]>.!rdococ
15:14:37 <fungot> cocodrr
15:17:11 <rdococ> ^bf >,[>,]<[.<]>.!
15:17:12 <sdhand> tognuff
15:17:26 <rdococ> dnahdss
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15:32:54 <b_jonas> In the C++ standard library, how come std::mutex is 40 bytes long but std::once_flag is only 4 or 8 bytes long? I thought under they hood they'd be pretty much the same thing.
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15:39:51 <alercah> b_jonas: http://refspecs.linuxbase.org/LSB_3.1.1/LSB-Core-generic/LSB-Core-generic/libpthread-ddefs.html
15:40:08 <alercah> (quick research showed that mutex is a wrapper around pthread_mutex_t on most posix platforms)
15:40:13 <b_jonas> alercah: thanks, I'll look
15:42:29 <b_jonas> "quick research showed that mutex is a wrapper around pthread_mutex_t on most posix platforms" => that would explain why it's big: pthread_mutex has to support timed waits, recursive mutexes, and error checking, whereas std::mutex needn't support those, and at least timed wait probably adds overhead even in the normal case
15:42:29 <b_jonas> That sounds bad though. I don't want to pay for the overhead for timed mutexes when I make ordinary mutexes.
15:45:17 <alercah> That's considered a QOI issue
15:45:19 <b_jonas> That page doesn't reveal me how once_init works though
15:46:02 <b_jonas> alercah: yes, and even though it's important, I think it's hard to fix without breaking ABI compatibility
15:47:22 <alercah> b_jonas: https://llvm.org/svn/llvm-project/libcxx/trunk/include/mutex
15:47:23 <alercah> b_jonas: https://llvm.org/svn/llvm-project/libcxx/trunk/include/mutex
15:47:26 <alercah> oops, sorry
15:49:02 <b_jonas> Though I guess the library might already be using the pthread_mutex in some way that isn't supported for posix where you don't pay the time penalty for the potential timed wait or error checking or recursive, but only a minor space penalty.
15:49:44 <alercah> a quick peek into call_once shows that it has a global mutex
15:50:49 <alercah> and a conditional variable... this code looks suspect to me actually
15:50:53 <alercah> but I don't have time to investigate
15:56:38 <b_jonas> alercah: thanks for the help anyway. I might try to look at implementations later.
16:05:00 <Jafet> presumably mutex::native_handle returns the underlying pthreads mutex
16:08:26 <b_jonas> I hate the native_handle functions. The library should have had different names for the accessor functions of different possible underlying implementations, so that you get a better error message when you use one that doesn't apply to your system.
16:25:09 <alercah> That would require exhaustive listing though
16:48:30 <Jafet> you could use a template to examine the return type
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17:41:30 <\oren\> holy crap they're arresting the heir to samsung?
17:42:22 <\oren\> that's like, arresting the head of half their economy
18:06:13 <alercah> not the heir, the ceo
18:20:16 <alercah> man, watching shakespeare plays is weird
18:20:19 <alercah> they feel so anachronistic
18:24:27 <int-e> Hmm? They fit quite well into their own time, didn't they...
18:26:00 <pikhq> Probably the most anachronistic of them are the histories.
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19:48:09 <^v> what language did this section of come from: "=[=]()->T*{"
19:48:31 <^v> guess right and you get 1
19:49:00 <wob_jonas> ^v: C++
19:49:11 <^v> ding ding
19:49:35 <wob_jonas> The [=] starts a lambda, () is the argument list, ->T* is return type, { starts the body, = at the start is an assignment operator
19:49:40 <wob_jonas> um no
19:50:00 <wob_jonas> = at start is more likely the punctuation for initializing a variable, but whatever
19:50:13 <wob_jonas> The [=] really gives it away
19:50:23 <^v> full code https://hastebin.com/uhoyamecis.cpp
19:53:45 <wob_jonas> You can tell because C++ has []() too before the braces for a lambda, rust has || before a the braces, golang sometimes has -> before a lambda but just a bare brace block works too, ruby and smalltalk usually don't have anything before a lambda if it's a function argument but do if it's standalone.
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19:58:07 <Melvar> I don’t remember go having a -> on a lambda … maybe it changed since I looked.
19:59:01 <wob_jonas> Melvar: I don't really do golang, so I could be wrong. I think I might be confusing it with digitalmars D language in fact.
19:59:39 <wob_jonas> (I know about ruby and perl and C++ syntaxes and it's complicated.)
20:04:22 <Melvar> Yeah in go it’s func(…) { … } or func(…) returntype { … } or func(…) (…) { … }
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20:27:40 <izabera> f(x) = 1 if the decimal representation of pi contains x consecutive zeros, 0 otherwise
20:27:47 <izabera> prove that f is computable
20:35:18 <wob_jonas> iza: my guess is that proving that is beyond the current state of mathematics
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20:37:27 <izabera> nope!
20:39:05 <wob_jonas> I'm serious
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20:45:35 <wob_jonas> izabera: why, do you have a proof?
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20:47:11 <Melvar> I believe there is a proof that every sequence of compatible digits appears in every base expansion of pi.
20:47:19 <izabera> if pi contains any sequence of zeros, f(x) = 1 is a correct algorithm. if there's a max N such that N consecutive zeros appear in pi, then f(x) = x < N is a correct algorithm
20:47:41 <wob_jonas> Melvar: I think that's only a conjecture, and we're very far from the proof
20:47:57 <wob_jonas> izabera: ARGH duh
20:47:59 <wob_jonas> you're right
20:48:57 <wob_jonas> you're asking only about sequences of zeros, so you can hard-code the answer
20:56:51 <alercah> int-e: they did, but they seem anachronistic because they use many modern idioms that we got from shakespeare
20:57:07 <alercah> so it is a mix of archaic language that is hard to understand and modern expressions
20:58:24 <alercah> izabera: heh
20:58:29 <alercah> izabera: if you want more fun, look into graph minors
20:58:39 <alercah> for every minor-closed class, there is an algorithm to decide membership
20:58:50 <alercah> but finding the algorithm is in some cases not decidable
21:00:25 <Melvar> Oh yes, I’ve heard an anecdote where some young person coming out of a movie version of some Shakespeare play complained how full of clichés it was.
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21:10:59 <\oren\> I hate shakespeare just because he's propped up as a great writer and there are a lot of modern works that are far superior
21:13:21 <\oren\> also, for some reason they think learning to read ancient english dialect is something essential to learning english literature
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21:15:18 <\oren\> they should translate shakespeare into modern english
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21:16:19 <shachaf> a pedant might point out that people classify shakespeare as "modern english" already hth
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21:16:57 <alercah> it's sort of the dividing line actually
21:17:21 <alercah> (from a linguistics point of view, it's actually quite incredible that works as old as shakespeares are still intelligible)
21:17:39 <alercah> \oren\: I think part of the issue comes from the old British view of the classics in education
21:17:53 <alercah> similar to teaching math using Euclid's Elementsa
21:17:56 <Hoolootwo> it's intelligable mostly, I believe, because it was written in the time period when english was standardized
21:18:12 <shachaf> alercah: works much older than shakespeare are intelligible hth
21:18:23 <alercah> shachaf: that's even more incredible ;0
21:18:27 <alercah> *;0
21:18:29 <alercah> dammit
21:18:32 <alercah> *;)
21:18:51 <shachaf> inconceivable
21:18:55 <\oren\> alercah: shakespeare wasn't intelligeble to me without footnotes
21:19:08 <alercah> \oren\: it's better live, actually
21:19:27 <alercah> At least in the school system I went through, it was specifically required to do one shakespeare play per year for several years
21:19:35 <alercah> Why? because shakespeare!
21:20:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Illuminati Confirmed * New user account
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21:22:14 <\oren\> illuminati /o\
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21:22:57 <\oren\> illuminati /ô\
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21:29:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lutfig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50747&oldid=50572 * Ferrosurgeon * (+310) added problems to fix
21:29:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: ping
21:30:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lutfig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50748&oldid=50747 * Ferrosurgeon * (+47) finish parenthetical
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22:12:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50749&oldid=50746 * Illuminati Confirmed * (+297) /* Introductions */
22:12:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Faggit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50750 * Illuminati Confirmed * (+3975) Created page with "'''Faggit''' is a new special unuseful programming language. The main goal of '''Faggit''' is to say a random amount of times the world "Faggit" to the output. Dont try to use..."
22:14:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Faggit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50751&oldid=50750 * Illuminati Confirmed * (+99) /* (Un)Useful specifications */
22:15:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Faggit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50752&oldid=50751 * Illuminati Confirmed * (+62) /* Wrinting a Faggit program */
22:17:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Faggit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50753&oldid=50752 * Illuminati Confirmed * (+82) /* Writing your awful unoptimized Faggit interpretor */
22:18:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Faggit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50754&oldid=50753 * Illuminati Confirmed * (+6) /* Conclusion */
22:18:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Faggit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50755&oldid=50754 * Illuminati Confirmed * (+6) /* Conclusion */
22:19:21 <Phantom_Hoover> oh lord
22:19:26 <Phantom_Hoover> who're the wiki sysops?
22:23:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50756&oldid=50549 * Illuminati Confirmed * (+66) /* General languages */
22:25:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Faggit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50757&oldid=50755 * Illuminati Confirmed * (+0) /* Faggit and the Illuminaties */
22:36:42 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett?
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22:51:43 <shachaf> `olist 1063
22:52:06 <HackEgo> olist 1063: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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22:57:55 <boily> `wisdom
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23:02:19 <boily> uh.
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23:13:14 <boily> uh.
23:13:21 <boily> uh, not uh. `wisdom.
23:13:23 <boily> `wisdom
23:13:33 <HackEgo> eyebrow//Eyebrows are Taneb's most notable feature.
23:13:37 <boily> `thanks Gregor
23:13:38 <HackEgo> Thanks, Gregor. Thegor.
23:17:53 <Gregor> Literally did nothing.
23:18:51 <boily> a nothing that works is better than nothing.
23:29:38 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18-Ye2L3ej8
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