←2017-11 2017-12 2018-01→ ↑2017 ↑all
2017-12-01
00:01:12 <zzo38> Then you should fix it. Either to add TLS, or to remove the "s". However, HTTPS should not be a requirement; it should be available both ways.
00:03:35 <zzo38> Since I was filtering out HackEgo's wiki message before, now I also filtered out this one. I hope to not filtered out too much; tell me if it has further messages than that. I used the following filter: /F 2 i :/:esowiki![^ ]* PRIVMSG #esoteric :
00:04:44 <zzo38> For HackEgo, I used this filter: /F 1 i :/:HackEgo![^ ]* PRIVMSG #esoteric :\[wiki\]/i
00:05:38 <zzo38> Sorry, that was wrong; here is the proper way for that "esowiki": /F 2 i :/:esowiki![^ ]* PRIVMSG #esoteric :/i
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00:42:30 <zzo38> Why does it now take so long (more than a few seconds) for the picture on my computer to appear after being idle?
00:42:41 <zzo38> (After the picture is visible, it works fine)
00:42:50 <shachaf> Which picture?
00:42:58 <shachaf> Do you mean for the screen to turn on?
00:43:27 <fizzie> (Fixed the HTTPS. And yes, it's available without as well.)
00:43:38 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes
00:43:47 <fizzie> zzo38: At least at the moment it has no other messages, and I'm not planning on adding any. I'll probably stop the [wiki] messages on HackEgo after everything is moved over.
00:44:47 <zzo38> The monitor is already on, it is just idle. After the key is moved or mouse is pushed, the ligh on the monitor is green but the picture is not visible until after a few seconds.
00:44:59 <zzo38> (When it is idle, the light is yellow instead.)
00:45:15 <zzo38> fizzie: Ah, OK.
01:19:58 <zzo38> The back of the monitor is hot; that happened before.
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02:59:07 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is equally offensive to all beliefs
02:59:10 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is equally offensive to all beliefs
02:59:34 <shachaf> @time
02:59:37 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Thu Nov 30 18:59:34 2017
02:59:38 <shachaf> ahem
02:59:43 * oerjan waves
02:59:45 <shachaf> `dowg password
02:59:52 <HackEgo> 11250:2017-12-01 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is equally offensive to all beliefs \ 11236:2017-11-04 <shachäf> learn The password of the month is unavailable due to budget cuts \ 11206:2017-10-01 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is revolutionary \ 11180:2017-09-02 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is chanterelles
02:59:54 <oerjan> i use UTC for such things hth
03:00:16 <oerjan> `time
03:00:17 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: time: not found
03:00:25 <oerjan> `` time
03:00:26 <HackEgo> real: 0m0.001s, user: 0m0.000s, sys: 0m0.000s
03:00:30 <oerjan> hum
03:00:31 <oerjan> `date
03:00:31 <HackEgo> Fri Dec 1 03:00:07 UTC 2017
03:00:42 <shachaf> I like how UTC isn't even an acronym.
03:00:43 <oerjan> as does HackEgo, so it's all good
03:00:56 <oerjan> of course is an acronym it!
03:01:44 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is equally offensive to all beliefs (but not time zones)
03:01:46 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is equally offensive to all beliefs (but not time zones)
03:01:58 <shachaf> You can't change the password of the month!
03:02:01 <oerjan> needed some obvious correction
03:02:03 <shachaf> More like the password of the two minutes.
03:03:02 <shachaf> `quote password
03:03:03 <HackEgo> No output.
03:03:39 <shachaf> `? rules
03:03:40 <HackEgo> rules? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
03:03:41 <shachaf> `? rules of wisdom
03:03:42 <HackEgo> unless essential for the entry‘s humor, should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
03:03:51 <shachaf> `sowg rules of wisdom
03:03:52 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: sowg: not found
03:03:56 <shachaf> `dowg rules of wisdom
03:04:02 <HackEgo> 10991:2017-06-02 <wob_jonäs> perl -e {$f="wisdom/rules of wisdom";open$i,"<",$f or die;local$/;$s=<$i>;$s=~s/with no space at the end/and end in a newline with no space before that/ or die;$s=~s/\\n\\z// or die;print$s;open$o,">",$f;print$o $s or die;} \ 10982:2017-06-02 <shachäf> undo 10978 \ 10978:2017-06-02 <sleff̈y> whoops \ 10977:2017-05-
03:04:42 <shachaf> `2 nur dowg rules of wisdom
03:04:48 <HackEgo> 2/1:
03:04:59 <shachaf> `2 dowg 'rules of wisdom'
03:05:06 <HackEgo> 2/5:-05-31 <int-̈e> slwd rules of wisdom//s,\',\xe2\x80\x98, \ 10975:2017-05-31 <oerjän> slwd rules of wisdom//s, they,, \ 10087:2017-01-02 <oerjän> slwd rules of wisdom//s/separate/lookup/ \ 9951:2016-12-12 <oerjän> slwd rules of wisdom//s,[.],, \ 9950:2016-12-12 <oerjän> revert 9947 \ 9949:2016-12-12 <oerjän> slwd rules of wisdom//s,th
03:05:19 <shachaf> oerjan: What's with 10975?
03:08:42 <oerjan> `` hg cat wisdom/rules -r 10087
03:08:42 <HackEgo> wisdom/rules: no such file in rev 82893cb913e8
03:08:58 <oerjan> `` hg cat wisdom/'rules of wisdom' -r 10087
03:08:59 <HackEgo> unless essential for the entry's humor, they should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced with no space at the end, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
03:10:02 <oerjan> i forget, but i guess it makes it even more dependent on the lookup key
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03:41:54 <oerjan> `cat bin/2
03:41:54 <HackEgo> ​\` "$@" |& sport 2
03:42:15 <oerjan> `cat bin/`
03:42:15 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/bash \ cmd="${1-quote}" \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$cmd" | rnooodl
03:43:16 <shachaf> the `2 nur thing was nonsense, of course
03:43:36 <oerjan> i know, although we _could_ hack it to work
03:45:39 <oerjan> `nur nur nur echo hi
03:45:40 <HackEgo> hi
03:49:08 <variable> so, I have an idea for a code golf language
03:49:42 <variable> take something like J, and encode it as a, say, a zipfile, with a fixed table
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04:11:25 <Hooloovo0> will it help?
04:11:56 <Hooloovo0> I'm not sure how well j would compress, especially with fixed tables
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08:05:24 <zzo38> Why do you think my computer monitor overheats? Is it due to voltage or due to something else? Unplugging it does seem to make it less hot, though.
08:09:18 <shachaf> copumpkin: You're still good for those bounties, right?
08:09:27 <zzo38> (It is not a CRT)
08:14:16 <zzo38> Is there dust that cannot be seen?
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09:25:42 <zzo38> I have defined some additional traits and modifiers for GURPS, such as Band Limited Invisibility (which allows you to be invisible to only normal vision, only infravision, only radar, etc; normally, if you are invisible to electromagnetic vision, you are invisible to all electromagnetic vision).
09:26:31 <zzo38> Also, do you know what Visible Reflection and Visible Shadow might mean for invisibility to sonar? For electromagnetic invisibility, it is clearly enough.
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12:06:54 <boily> `5 w
12:07:00 <HackEgo> 1/2:jerk//Jerk is the integral of snap. \ codo//The codo button is the dodo's undo button. \ complexity class//Complexity classes are endangered creatures that lived unnoticed until the mid-20th century, when human exploitation caused many populations to collapse. The remaining specimens are now studied ethically in Canada. \ flu shot//Flu
12:07:02 <boily> `n
12:07:03 <HackEgo> 2/2:shots are usually available from some time in the first half of November. \ hambiguitous//We're not sure what hambiguitous means, but it's definitely not hth.
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13:29:14 <copumpkin> shachaf: if only :)
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14:05:47 <Taneb> It's so nice when you Google something, realise it absolutely isn't going to give you what you want, and then what you want is in the top result
14:06:05 <Taneb> I wanted to view two text files side by side so I Google'd "horizontal cat"
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14:45:47 <b_jonas> Taneb: diff -yW160 onefile otherfile
14:46:19 <b_jonas> yeah, I know that's not the same. that will try to pair matching lines, so it will inlclude empty lines if necessary
14:46:25 <b_jonas> empty lines on one side or the other
14:46:56 <Taneb> b_jonas: I wound up using "paste"
14:47:11 <b_jonas> Taneb: that can work too, but it's hard to get it to be fixed width
14:47:28 <b_jonas> that's a hard problem in first place because you need to know the encoding and have a character width table too
14:47:49 <b_jonas> now all of those are in libc, so diff or anything could manage, but still
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21:51:42 <zzo38> I just replaced the monitor on my computer. The new one doesn't have the problem I used to have, but there is a few different problem, including a few plastic things sticking in the sides, and the picture is a bit less sharp (but still perfectly readable).
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21:54:55 <variable> I have a stuffed lobster sitting next to me; his name is clawdius
21:57:11 <Taneb> variable, that is a cute name for a stuffed lobster
21:57:22 <Taneb> I have a stuffed shark at my parents' house called Not Bernard
22:00:55 <variable> Taneb: :)
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22:21:34 <zzo38> The other monitor was displaying "Not Optimum Mode" error message and wouldn't display the picture so I reconnected the first one again.
22:21:48 <zzo38> Do you know why it does that, even though it worked at first?
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2017-12-02
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01:27:54 <boily> `5 w
01:27:59 <HackEgo> 1/2:relrod//A relrod is a machine useful for finding the Force. \ latex//LaTeX is \end{verbatim} \textbackslash textbackslash begin\textbackslash \{document\textbackslash \} \ rholypoly//A rholypoly is an edible Greek species of Armadillidiidae. Goes well with garlic! \ third law of thermodynamics//The third law of thermodynamics says that
01:40:45 <boily> `n
01:40:46 <HackEgo> 2/2:Taneb cannot reach absolute zero. \ bfjoust//bfjoust is a spamming tool for #esoteric.
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02:26:23 * relrod looks up
02:44:33 * boily looks sideways
02:44:38 <boily> what are you looking up at?
02:47:27 * Roger9 looks into the future
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06:02:19 <\oren\> https://imgur.com/wiy1Q8t
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09:37:21 <shachaf> David Madore made an ordinal visualizer: http://www.madore.org/~david/math/drawordinals.html
09:52:41 <shachaf> Oh, I saw this was posted by a David so I thought it was new, but it was a different David.
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11:22:35 <ais523> @messages?
11:22:35 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
11:28:41 * ais523 is reading about compact minimal perfect hash functions
11:28:48 <ais523> it's like metagolf but actually practically useful
11:33:17 <\oren\> TIS-100 is a good golfing game
11:40:17 <int-e> oh that game, hmm, still 4 unfinished programs in the "TIS-NET directory"
11:40:52 <fizzie> Oh, I think I've got one left as well. (And a lot of very insufficiently golfed ones overall.)
11:41:42 <fizzie> I've been waiting for SHENZHEN I/O to appear in a humble bundle or with a big discount. Although now there's that new Zachtronics game as well.
11:42:27 <fizzie> (The new one's more like SpaceChem, I believe.)
11:42:56 <int-e> also http://www.zachtronics.com/the-codex-of-alchemical-engineering/ :P
11:43:15 <int-e> (the screenshots look like that, on a hexagonal grid)
11:44:16 <fizzie> Heh, yes. It even shares part of the name with http://www.zachtronics.com/the-magnum-opus-challenge/
11:45:17 <fizzie> http://www.zachtronics.com/ruckingenur-ii/ "Requires: .NET 2.0, running as Administrator"
11:45:56 <int-e> that one worked in wine for me
11:46:23 <shachaf> fizzie: You don't think it's worth the full price?
11:46:48 <int-e> It's short, not too great, and I didn't appreciate the time pressure on the last level.
11:47:26 <fizzie> shachaf: It might well be, but I don't have a great track record of finding the time to play things. Getting them for cheap makes me feel less bad.
11:47:26 <int-e> (the ruckingeneur one that is)
11:48:41 <int-e> Hmm, gog thinks I'm from Poland, apparently.
11:49:42 <int-e> (I think they messed something up with their caching.)
11:58:33 <\oren\> Unfortunately the only scores I have on here to compare are shachafs and he hasnt done alot of the puzzles
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12:00:35 <int-e> there's https://www.reddit.com/r/tis100/comments/4mka06/table_of_lowest_cyclesnodesinstructions/
12:00:37 <shachaf> I've hardly played it.
12:00:48 <shachaf> I should get all my jams working in WINE.
12:01:02 <shachaf> int-e: Did you jam Shenzhen I/O?
12:01:13 <\oren\> I have resorted to buying my friend opus magnum so I will have scores to compare in it
12:01:36 <int-e> shachaf: no
12:01:38 <shachaf> You can buy it for fizzie
12:01:44 <shachaf> Gift = zero guilt
12:03:25 <int-e> shachaf's so smart
12:04:19 <shachaf> shachaf sprø som selleri
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15:26:21 <quintopia> helloily
15:28:07 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIA!
15:29:48 <fizzie> MediaWiki's whitespace style is just so weird. if ( foo( 'argument' ) ) { ...
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15:30:07 <fizzie> Wonder if it's just them, or if this is a typical PHP thing.
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16:33:59 <Vorpal> fizzie: so everywhere except after function name?
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19:00:26 <zseri> I think it's just MediaWiki's style.
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2017-12-03
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00:45:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cortex * New user account
00:46:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53474&oldid=53457 * Cortex * (+150)
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00:50:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:QuinePig]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53475 * Cortex * (+218) Created page with "Wow. I had the exact same idea for a joke language, just printing the source code. Just goes to show that every original idea is taken lol ~~~~"
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00:55:14 <zzo38> It takes thirty-five seconds for the picture to appear when the monitor is switched on. Do you know what might be wrong?
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00:57:00 <zzo38> (This includes the OSD controls; if a button is pushed before the picture appears, the OSD controls will be visible once the picture appears but not before that.)
00:59:02 <zzo38> Also, I get a high pitch noise from the monitor while it is switched off. When it is turned on or unplugged, the noise goes away until switched off again.
01:03:45 <zzo38> (I timed it using a clock with a second hand; there is one above the television so I took that into the computer room temporarily in order to time it.)
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01:54:15 <Hooloovo0> what kind of interface? VGA?
01:54:40 <Hooloovo0> what kind of monitor?
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03:11:53 <zzo38> This time it took fifty seconds.
03:12:04 <zzo38> Hooloovo0: It is VGA, and it is a LCD monitor.
03:12:29 <Hooloovo0> what kind? it doesn't seem like a very good one
03:13:00 <zzo38> It didn't used to do that; it used to be much faster. It only started being slow recently.
03:13:26 <zzo38> (Once the picture is visible though, it will continue to work OK until it is switched off again or is idle.)
03:13:49 <zzo38> (I have done some tests and it does seem to be a problem with the monitor, not with the computer.)
03:14:01 <zzo38> Maybe the problem is a capacitor.
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03:19:23 <zzo38> Do you know about anything like this?
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04:09:59 <deltab> you could try asking in ##electronics
04:10:43 <Hooloovo0> yeah, ##electronics is a great resource
04:11:07 <Hooloovo0> though, since you mention a high-pitched frequency, it certainly sounds like a capacitor is suspicious
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05:04:32 <zzo38> They explained some things; that is good
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07:35:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53476&oldid=50058 * Quintopia * (+17) Influenced
08:53:25 <shachaf> `quote randomly
08:53:32 <HackEgo> 180) <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly) \ 588) <ais523\unfoog> Vorpal: your ability to randomly make obvious comments in IRC as if they were profound is not a particularly useful one
08:53:57 <shachaf> Vorpal: I wonder what prompted 588.
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10:19:10 <myname> i would totally play sandwich
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10:50:29 <int-e> <elliott> "One day in September of 2011 — though I'm not sure precisely which one — marked Befunge-93's 18th birthday. That means that Befunge is now old enough to drink in its native land of Canada. To celebrate this, I thought I'd get Befunge-93 drunk to see what would happen."
10:52:44 <int-e> Flobnar, hmm. No esolangs page, but there's https://github.com/catseye/Flobnar
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11:20:15 <Vorpal> shachaf: I have no idea. grep the logs?
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11:23:20 <int-e> the context isn't very enlightening. Some PHP debugging, and then <Vorpal> $user->session_begin(); <Vorpal> hm <Vorpal> so session data <Vorpal> well, that would require analysing a lot of the stuff to figure that out ... maybe it goes back further.
11:24:34 <fizzie> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-10-31#211957ais523unfoog
11:25:08 <fizzie> It's a shame codu.org logs stopped, the formatting and linkability was nice.
11:26:44 <int-e> . o O ( This is where shachaf suggests that fizzie could run his own IRC logging bot. )
11:26:47 * int-e ducks and runs
11:28:06 <fizzie> If I'm going to be running that non-HackEgo wiki gateway, I guess logging the channel would be an obvious extra feature for it.
11:28:08 <int-e> (To be clear, that idea is, of course, mine. But it does sound like something shachaf would say.)
11:28:36 <fizzie> Would have to feed historical data into it to be initially useful though.
11:28:59 <int-e> nah, it would be useful even without historical data
11:30:41 <fizzie> There are 4516623 rows in my logs table for this channel.
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11:32:51 <fizzie> Actually, I wonder if we already missed the channel turning 15 years.
11:32:59 <fizzie> It was started around this time of the year in 2002.
11:33:19 <fizzie> I think I looked this up sometime earlier this year.
11:34:50 <int-e> registered : Jan 03 01:30:22 2003 (14y 48w 2d ago)
11:34:59 <fizzie> Yes, but not created then.
11:35:12 <fizzie> Judging from the mailing list posts, either 8th or 9th of December.
11:35:34 <fizzie> So next Fri/Sat then. How are we going to celebrate?
11:35:59 <int-e> Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:08:17 +0000 (GMT)
11:35:59 <int-e> From: "Al. Andreou" <ee4299@ee.teiath.gr>
11:35:59 <int-e> OK, so now we can be found at OPN, #esoteric (it's ours!).
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11:38:38 <shachaf> int-e: It sounds like something I would say?
11:38:55 <shachaf> I don't think I'd've thought to think it, let alone say it.
11:40:44 <fizzie> int-e: Yes, it's just that the suggestion for using Freenode was on 8th, so you can only say it's somewhere between those two emails.
11:43:37 <int-e> fizzie: Ah, there's a big difference between the Date: header and the first Received: header, wow. I probably looked at one of the latter.
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11:45:15 <int-e> Received: [...] 08 Dec 2002 20:43:04 -0700 (MST) / Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 11:39:43 -0800
11:46:09 <int-e> (And being a European I would interpret the former as Dec 9th. :P)
11:48:01 <shachaf> I was not using IRC at that time.
11:48:09 <shachaf> Did I speak English at that time?
11:48:15 <shachaf> I probably did.
11:49:02 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, int-e registered his account exactly 10 weeks before I registered mine
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11:57:01 <fizzie> I was trying to find when I joined the mailing list, but my emails from that era are even less sorted. Earliest I can find is 23 Apr 2001, but that's already from the "new" (sange.fi) list.
11:59:13 <int-e> Oh I was still joking about annual trips around the sun at the time.
11:59:55 <shachaf> There's a mailing list?
11:59:59 <int-e> was.
12:00:15 <fizzie> http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/
12:00:50 <shachaf> fizzie: Looking forward to Independence day?
12:01:02 <shachaf> Exciting times.
12:02:05 <fizzie> I'm hoping they're light up something here in blue-white colours. They're doing that in a bunch of places (Globen in Stockholm, the Niagara Falls, the Colosseum) but they haven't published the full list yet.
12:02:32 <shachaf> There's a local independence gala in 12 hours, maybe I should go.
12:07:42 <fizzie> "I don't mind if you send attachments to the list, as long as they're not atrociously huge - let's try to keep them in the tens-of-kilobytes range. But if you do send an attachment, make sure to note that your posting is [Long] in the subject line, for the benefit of subscribers who have limited connection options."
12:07:50 <fizzie> Things have changed a little since then.
12:09:23 <int-e> Well things would be great if data size had not grown with the available bandwidth.
12:11:46 <shachaf> It hasn't.
12:11:52 <shachaf> I mean, it's grown, but not as much as bandwidth.
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17:07:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * LucasMW * New user account
17:10:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53477&oldid=53474 * LucasMW * (+253) LucasMW Introduction
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17:10:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53478&oldid=53477 * LucasMW * (+90)
17:14:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:LucasMW]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53479 * LucasMW * (+333) My First Page
17:17:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:LucasMW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53480&oldid=53479 * LucasMW * (+85)
17:20:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Headache]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53481&oldid=45033 * LucasMW * (+129) About another Headache Lang
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17:44:23 <zzo38> The picture on my computer is getting slower; this time it took seventy seconds.
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18:37:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Schozi * New user account
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19:02:58 <int-e> Meh the new NoScript interface is horrible.
19:04:47 <int-e> (And I think I just realized what it is... unfamiliar look aside, I have to aim more carefully now, both horizontal and vertical positioning matters now.)
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19:15:16 <zseri> yes
19:23:07 <int-e> So what alternatives are there... that support the untrusted/allow temporarily/make permissions permanent workflow?
19:23:57 <zseri> uMatrix
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20:36:59 <quintopia> variabello
20:50:51 <variable> quintopia: hello
20:51:09 <variable> o.O I wonder what will happen to my iced tea if I shut watered off
20:52:43 <quintopia> if you wate, it will turn red.
20:53:21 * watered is confused
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21:05:51 <variable> watered: you're a daemon that dispenses water, correct?
21:07:12 <quintopia> obviously. he ends with "d"
21:13:53 * watered pees his pants
21:16:16 <variable> watered: :(
21:22:21 <watered> variable: I'm the light of the universe
21:22:25 <watered> I come in pease
21:22:32 <watered> peace *
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21:29:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Crement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53482&oldid=53396 * Zzo38 * (+758) Macros
21:38:41 <\oren\> Hmm, I wonder if there is a better way to divide two numbers than repeated substraction
21:39:38 <variable> \oren\: in?
21:40:12 <\oren\> TIS-100
21:41:25 <\oren\> I have a stack memory
21:41:45 <\oren\> not sure how that helps who
21:41:48 <\oren\> tho
21:43:25 <variable> \oren\: never heard of it, but it sounds like a fun game
21:43:33 * variable buys
21:44:22 <quintopia> \oren\: "better"?
21:44:33 <\oren\> quintopia: faster, ideally
21:44:43 <anarki1911> \oren\: is the divisor constant/known ?
21:44:52 <\oren\> anarki1911: no
21:44:58 <quintopia> i've never played it. isn't it a zachtronics game?
21:45:30 <zseri> bye
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21:45:39 <\oren\> quintopia: yeah, you have a grid of nodes, each of which is a computer with two registers that can talk to the ones around them
21:46:30 <\oren\> and each compuer can have 15 assembly instructions in its program memroy
21:46:37 <\oren\> up to 15
21:46:45 <quintopia> ah. tricky.
21:47:51 <\oren\> http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1220769883
21:48:07 <\oren\> This is what I have for division right now
21:48:53 <\oren\> It's not using the stack memory nodes because I couldn't think of a way to use them
21:50:05 <\oren\> the other problem is that you can't even use the other register except by using one of your precious instructions to swap it with the accumulator
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22:09:37 <fizzie> \oren\: I used the stack memory, but only to pass things right through. My only nodes that have something else than a single "MOV X, Y" instruction (where X, Y are directions) are the three left ones in the top row.
22:12:09 <fizzie> http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1220792301
22:20:37 <\oren\> It took a whol bunch of work but I made it fadter by special casing 1 as divisor
22:21:26 <fizzie> Huh, there were two completely unnecessary instructions in the screenshot.
22:25:17 <\oren\> fizzie: what performance do u get with that
22:25:18 <fizzie> Eh, five, actually.
22:25:37 <fizzie> 7299 cycles, 25 instructions, now that I fixed the silliness.
22:25:56 <fizzie> The cycle count wasn't affected by that, I guess it wasn't a bottleneck.
22:26:42 <\oren\> I got 5452 by special casing 1 but it needed 33 instructions
22:27:52 <\oren\> https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/870748015994009129/31E6FC0D7DC0A792213B340F509C5FC95CB4B476/
22:28:26 <\oren\> http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1220807027
22:29:02 <\oren\> and that node is now entirely full of instructions...
22:30:30 <\oren\> hmm, actually, I'm not sure how it's counting instructions, because that looks like more than 33
22:31:04 <\oren\> 62
22:35:43 <\oren\> oh i see, the statistics are best of all the solutions you've made that makes sense
22:37:40 <int-e> which of the problems do you need that division for?
22:38:37 <int-e> oh there's the sequence averager
22:39:59 <\oren\> int-e: yeah but in that case you would want to use few nodes rather than optimize for speed
22:41:20 <int-e> oh bottom row, signal divider
22:42:11 <int-e> I didn't bother, apparently. 28 instructions, 6 nodes, 28 instructions.
22:42:23 <int-e> err, 6362 cycles
22:45:11 <int-e> To make it faster, one could try dividing by, say, 4B first, and then the remainder by B.
22:46:05 <int-e> (and in principle you can even do a binary division scheme, where the stack might actually come in handy)
22:46:17 <int-e> but it seemed to be too much effort.
23:03:27 <int-e> sigh. https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1172126
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2017-12-04
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00:02:26 <quintopia> helloily
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00:04:04 <quintopia> Programmell000000
00:05:56 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIA!
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00:11:28 <boily> fungot: nostril.
00:11:28 <fungot> boily: everything of the format. save. restart and hope for recognition." 3.0.
00:24:04 <\oren\> hooray, 4696 cycles!
00:31:56 <quintopia> more special casing?
00:46:22 <\oren\> Nah, just a little optimization
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01:21:32 <Programmer000000> hell0?
01:22:33 <Programmer000000> iz n1 there?
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03:01:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53483&oldid=53478 * Schozi * (+342) /* Introductions */
03:02:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53484&oldid=53483 * Schozi * (+80)
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03:35:24 <zzo38> I found a document about vision, light sources, different bands, and considering the limits of quantum mechanics and even frame rates, etc, for use as alternative rules with role playing game such as GURPS. If I will invent "Scientific Role Playing Game" some time in future, I would want to use this new stuff, I think.
03:41:47 <zzo38> Do you like this?
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04:31:16 <variable> zzo38: GURPS is the perfect system for that
04:31:25 <variable> "You want a rule? you get a rule!"
04:32:50 <zzo38> variable: Yes, that can be done. Still I would want to make a new one so that you don't have to change 300 things and so that it can be public domain.
04:32:58 <zzo38> (Although, perhaps not right now)
04:37:19 <zzo38> How much GURPS do you know?
04:37:31 <variable> reasonable amount
04:37:40 <variable> haven't played it in years
04:40:10 <zzo38> What version? I have fourth edition
04:40:43 <variable> likely 4th
04:40:48 <variable> don't remember
04:41:11 <variable> whatever was current ~ 6 yrs ago
04:41:12 <zzo38> I made up a list of various new advantages, disadvantages, and modifiers, some of which I don't know the value or am unsure of, and some of which come from other sources I found in the computer, but also some things I cannot figure out.
04:41:29 <variable> current game of choice is pathfinder
04:41:31 <variable> :\
04:42:25 <zzo38> Such as, what do you do if you want to define an Affliction that changes one of your healing powers that heals yourself (such as Vampiric Bite) to heal the target of your attack instead?
04:42:55 <zzo38> I used to play the D&D 3.5e but now I think I prefer GURPS is much better. D&D has too much hit points, for one thing
04:43:03 <zzo38> GURPS is also more scientific, but not quite enough
04:43:22 <variable> "scientific"
04:43:27 <variable> "I cast magic missile"
04:43:36 <variable> never cared much for it
04:44:35 <variable> meh - time to get food
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04:44:42 <zzo38> I don't mean that only realistic things should exist in the game; I mean that "realistic" things in the game should be realistic.
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05:20:00 <\oren\> " I am convinced that before twenty years are over one half of our earth will have paid a visit to the moon." -- 1865
05:23:05 <shachaf> To be fair, the population was much smaller back then. Maybe only about 100 people.
05:30:25 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvsQ9hYKq7c
05:38:36 <zzo38> (Also, I don't use Magic Missile spell myself; there is better skills)
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05:40:20 <shachaf> zzo38: But what about http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html ?
05:48:13 <zzo38> There is still the better spells, such as Shield. That one blocks Magic Missile, in Dungeons & Dragons (and it also gives you defense).
05:49:17 <zzo38> But I prefer the GURPS game anyways. Dungeons&Dragons doesn't have a Mathematics (Pure) skill.
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08:48:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Heartade * New user account
08:50:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53485&oldid=53484 * Heartade * (+481)
08:51:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Probie]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53486 * Heartade * (+13558) This is a language I've been working on for a few months now.
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09:17:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Crement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53487&oldid=53482 * Zzo38 * (+538)
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09:27:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Crement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53488&oldid=53487 * Zzo38 * (-797) Simpler macros
09:28:07 <zzo38> Do you think I am correct about computation class of Crement esolang?
09:28:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Crement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53489&oldid=53488 * Zzo38 * (+101)
09:34:35 <ais523> zzo38: I think it's probably TC too but I'm not sure
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11:11:26 <b_jonas> argh! I hear of this in last minute only?
11:11:41 <b_jonas> yeah, they probably told me about earlier, I just didn't listen
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11:21:30 <int-e> "this"?
11:21:32 <int-e> fungot: help!
11:21:32 <fungot> int-e: ' s what i'm doing harrassing boston's accent...
11:22:39 <shachaf> int-e: Do you like this?
11:23:08 <int-e> It depends on the context. In the context of "Do you like _?", I hate it.
11:25:23 <int-e> Ooh, crement dataflow is rather annoying.
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11:30:18 <b_jonas> int-e: the PhD defense meeting of a friend is today afternoon
11:30:40 <shachaf> Maybe you can make it for the snake fight.
11:30:51 <b_jonas> it probably appeared in like four previous emails about various presentations in the near future, but there's so many of them that I don't usually pay attention
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11:42:39 <int-e> ais523 zzo38: Anyway, one can copy data to several target cells, so it can be used in different branches of a program. So a Minsky machine is indeed within reach. Untested sketch for copying a value to two cells: http://sprunge.us/YHMO
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12:55:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Crement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53490&oldid=53489 * Int-e * (+2848) /* Computational class */ Add Minsky machine construction.
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13:24:04 <int-e> ais523 zzo38: Oh a colleague came up with another cute design for working in Crement: One can make variables out of a D instruction followed by a J instruction; to read such a variable, one can store a target address in the D instruction, and a return address in the J instruction, then jump to the variable.
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16:48:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Headache]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53491&oldid=53481 * LucasMW * (+60)
16:49:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Headache]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53492&oldid=53491 * LucasMW * (+64)
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17:19:20 <zzo38> int-e: I had the same idea myself actually (the second one)
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19:13:55 <zseri> I built a c++ extension builder for XTW written in XTW using XTW extensions (plugins)
19:17:37 <zseri> https://github.com/zserik/zxtw/blob/master/examples/plgmaker.xtw
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19:34:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Spk44 * New user account
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19:40:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53493&oldid=53485 * Spk44 * (+296) /* Introductions */
19:44:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Spk44]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53494 * Spk44 * (+103) spk44's user page
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19:58:40 <int-e> bah, why can't software just work
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20:07:45 <int-e> Hmm, of course half of the time it's a configuration problem. Shame on me.
20:10:24 <int-e> whoever thought that this was a good idea? text/html; /usr/bin/xdg-open %s ; copiousoutput
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20:12:13 <int-e> "This flag [copiousoutput] should be given whenever the interpreter is capable of producing more than a few lines of output on stdout, and does no interaction with the user." -- well, I expect that under most circumstances there is user interaction. (This is Arch linux.)
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20:37:03 * int-e shifts most of the blame to https://pagure.io/mailcap/c/2b586d3c789f5f4645fdd1aab546874a7419810b
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21:12:04 <int-e> Ah, I solved the signal divider before I learned to use JRO. Now it's 20 instructions in 5 blocks instead of 28 in 6. :)
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22:17:41 <int-e> \oren\: a binary division scheme got me down to 3009 cycles; my best is 2594 now with special-casing 1.
22:17:52 <int-e> (and a whopping 61 instructions)
22:21:13 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/sd2594.png
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22:54:49 <boily> fungot: nostril.
22:54:50 <fungot> boily: uhmm okay. i'm not implementing my own language, i had a long lecture about it like that, when called, acts as if the attacker can know the exact nature of it.
22:55:27 <boily> fungot: right you aren't... totally believable. and you aren't going to make it public on nostril-lang.org or something.
22:55:27 <fungot> boily: don't you have to pop port and addr even when they're unused?
22:55:46 <boily> fungot: they're unused, and the GC's going to obliterate them anyway.
22:55:46 <fungot> boily: right, but in the society, not the keyboard shortcuts if they don't reply " you are a poet. do you do
22:56:15 <boily> fungot: I haven't potetry-ed in a long time, even if I use keyboard shortcuts.
22:56:15 <fungot> boily: i assume i need another fnord. a fnord fnord
22:56:32 <boily> fungot: a fnord is the word, fnord fnord fnord ♪
22:57:24 <brandonson> fungot: pining for the fnords?
22:57:24 <fungot> brandonson: what's an algorithm that you can't express your algorithms easily in assembly language you need to
23:16:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Casi * New user account
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02:30:03 <fizzie> Heh, someone's crawler ("DomainCrawler/3.0") just crawled through the staging.esolangs.org copy of the wiki, apparently because someone else had a leftover domain name pointing at the IP.
02:32:01 <fizzie> (The domain the crawler used was <something>.co.uk, and there's a <something>.com pointing at a different server hosted on the same provider, so I'm guessing they only remembered to update the first one.)
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07:40:13 <zzo38> Can we make up some kind of quantum teleportation in GURPS?
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14:50:04 <int-e> fungot: what do you know about unaffiliated clocks?
14:50:04 <fungot> int-e: oh, i'll leave...
14:50:14 <int-e> fungot: c'mon!
14:50:14 <fungot> int-e: and static typing is how i learned to debug zetalisp manual and its introspection capabilities were very smalltalk-like. not continuations as such but instead calculated like that
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15:39:07 <fizzie> Hmm. The last person to make an account tried twice to edit [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]], but both attempts were blocked by the filter.
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15:44:11 <fizzie> Apparently because they kept trying to remove one of the two empty lines after the <!-- New introductions ... --> comment.
15:46:16 <int-e> fun.
15:46:50 <int-e> (hmm, could the editor do such a thing automatically?)
15:47:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53495&oldid=53493 * Fizzie * (+61) Warn about deleting empty lines in the instructions.
15:48:24 <fizzie> Well, it didn't do it automatically to me, at least.
15:49:39 <fizzie> Maybe I should just remove the line they tried to remove anyway, I don't think two empty lines make the source any more readable than one.
15:50:35 <quintopia> hi fizzie
15:50:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53496&oldid=53495 * Fizzie * (-1) Remove a superfluous empty line.
15:50:47 <quintopia> don't you think it's time for a new featured language?
15:51:33 <Taneb> "Hello, world!" is a quine in HQ9+
15:52:00 <quintopia> without the quotes yes
15:52:05 <LKoen> I don't know. brainfuck has only been there four years.
15:52:25 <fizzie> Has it been four years already? Sounds dubious.
15:52:30 <quintopia> i miss the days where it actually changed on occasion
15:52:49 <fizzie> Huh.
15:52:50 <Taneb> I think Underload should be the next featured language
15:52:53 <fizzie> Time flies.
15:53:28 <quintopia> I don't care what the next is, as long as it isn't a brainfuck derivative :P
15:54:00 <fizzie> It's proposed in https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Featured_languages/Candidates and hasn't been featured yet, and the article's pretty comprehensive, so I'd be happy with featuring Underload.
15:54:27 <quintopia> duat
15:55:31 <fizzie> Does someone want to add an {{infobox proglang ...}} for Underload? ;)
15:56:15 <fizzie> I'd also like to have Befunge as the featured language at some point, but the article is not super great.
15:56:51 <fizzie> By the way, I'll be migrating the wiki over to a new server probably this Sunday, so expect maybe an hour or two of being locked in matrix of soli.. I mean, in read-only mode.
15:57:16 <int-e> wee
15:57:43 <lambdabot> Moves are exciting!
15:57:52 <int-e> (I've moved that thing 3 times already.)
15:57:58 <quintopia> what is the underload paradigm?
15:58:02 <int-e> (But I think a wiki is more... uhm... interesting.)
15:59:02 <quintopia> is it a """""functional""""" language?
15:59:12 <int-e> `? underload
15:59:17 <quintopia> or does that need more scare quotes?
15:59:21 <HackEgo> underload? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
15:59:25 <fizzie> int-e: I wrote down a cheat sheet for setting up the "CaC is down again" backup copy, so it's not too painful any more. It's pretty close to restoring from backups, after all.
16:00:31 <fizzie> (It's basically "undump the mysql database, rsync and chmod the image upload folders, run a maintenance PHP script to regenerate the file cache".)
16:00:54 <quintopia> what is a CaC
16:01:05 <Taneb> quintopia: a swear word in Latin
16:01:12 <fizzie> The previous hosting company, Cloud At Cost.
16:01:19 <fizzie> (At the cost of your sanity.)
16:02:05 <quintopia> is there a file extension for underload programs?
16:03:03 <fizzie> The test files for fungot's Underload interpreter are .ul files.
16:03:04 <fungot> fizzie: that i definitely need to write up a bool debugger so it's easier for beginners to get over the initial, for the practice and associated ill effects of sword swallowing. design: letters sent to sword swallowers requesting information on technique and complications. setting: membership lists of the form
16:03:14 <fizzie> I don't know how canonical that is, or if I just named 'em like that myself.
16:04:17 <quintopia> it's canonical until ais523 says otherwise
16:04:35 <fizzie> http://yiap.nfshost.com/esoteric.php?f=underload uses it.
16:06:26 <fizzie> (In fact, 99.ul from there is one of the test files. The other is burden.ul, which I think is a test suite elliott wrote.)
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16:07:24 <quintopia> are there any languages that underload influenced
16:10:16 <Taneb> quintopia: it definitely influenced Fueue
16:11:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53497&oldid=51408 * Quintopia * (+309) infobox
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16:12:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Underload]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53498&oldid=53497 * Quintopia * (+11) fueue
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16:15:37 <quintopia> i think the befunge article isn't that great because everyone's hoping cpressey will do it...
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16:18:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53499&oldid=53498 * Quintopia * (-184) remove dead link
16:19:16 <quintopia> the underload article mentions a reference interpreter, but at no point does it ever say "this link here goes to the reference implementation"
16:35:56 <quintopia> i feel like we, as a community, need to come together on names for the new programming paradigms we have invented. what is the paradigm for muriel?
16:38:13 <Taneb> Quine-oriented?
16:38:58 <quintopia> a bit imprecise. it doesn't have to quine itself. it can replace itself with a different program at any time.
16:39:15 <Taneb> Succession-oriented
16:39:25 <quintopia> ...not bad
16:39:53 <quintopia> what is the paradigm for Resplicate?
16:41:21 <Taneb> I haven't seen ResPlicate before
16:42:08 <Taneb> It's almost a tag machine
16:46:46 <quintopia> except the rules are not separate from the string being rewritten. but i would agree it is in the same order if not the same family
16:50:34 <quintopia> how about "Post-like system"
16:52:05 <b_jonas> quintopia: is that the paradigm it shares with Slashes and Fuun DNA?
16:52:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fuun DNA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53500&oldid=46724 * B jonas * (+48)
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17:01:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fuun RNA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53501&oldid=46725 * B jonas * (+26)
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17:16:13 <quintopia> b_jonas: /// is string-rewriting paradigm
17:22:41 <b_jonas> quintopia: yes, but it's also one where you can only execute each statement in the source code once, and you have to explicitly modify the source code to add more lines if you want to loop
17:23:05 <b_jonas> or am I confusing that with another esolang?
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17:24:17 <Vorpal> quintopia: what about the paradigm of befunge-98?
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17:55:50 <quintopia> Vorpal: is it not imperative? i thought all the fungeoids were
17:58:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bauberqueue]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53502 * Quintopia * (+4656) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Bauberqueue |paradigms=Post-like |author=[[User:Quintopia]] |year=[[:Category:2017|2017]] |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] |refimp..."
18:06:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bauberqueue/bauberqueue.py]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53503 * Quintopia * (+3320) Created page with "Reference implementation for [[Bauberqueue]] in Python. import sys from collections import defaultdict def load(filename): try: listing = defaultdict(list..."
18:07:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53504&oldid=53429 * Quintopia * (+18) bauberqueue
18:08:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Quintopia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53505&oldid=50831 * Quintopia * (+102) bauberqueue
18:10:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53506&oldid=53283 * Quintopia * (+100) bauberqueue
18:11:28 <choco_chuck> does anyone have any resources for actually programming a tag or post system?
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19:13:45 <quintopia> choco_chuck: the wikipedia article on tag systems is pretty decent
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19:19:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bauberqueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53507&oldid=53502 * Quintopia * (-7) golf examples, add category
19:34:44 <\oren\> TIL apparently C89 doesn't support signed zeros
19:42:55 <zzo38> I thought whether it support signed integer zeros is a feature of the computer and not of the programming language. For floating numbers there is signed zeros I think, though; but maybe that too is only by the feature of the computer and not of the programming language, I don't know
19:45:36 <\oren\> supposedly in C89 there isn't support for floating point signed zero
19:46:14 <zzo38> O, maybe
19:46:46 <zzo38> But I thought it is depending on the floating point format used in the computer that the program is for.
19:50:23 <fizzie> What does "support" mean here? C89 has the same model for floating-point types, which is a sign-magnitude one. (C89 footnote 8 even says: "This model precludes floating-point representations other than sign-magnitude.")
19:55:16 <fizzie> I guess it might mean there isn't necessarily any way of distinguishing between negative and positive zero, since they compare equal, and C89 <math.h> doesn't have any functions for getting the sign of a floating-point value.
19:58:39 <fizzie> Though looks like even C11 allows for a floating point representation that doesn't differentiate them. (C11 5.2.4.2.2p4: "An implementation may give zero -- a sign or may leave [it] unsigned. Wherever such values are unsigned, any requirement -- to retrieve the sign shall produce an unspecified sign, and any requirement to set the string shall be ignored.")
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20:19:46 <wob_jonas> If, for esoteric purposes, I write numbers in radix 5 (rather than 10 or 16), what would you call that? quinquenary, quinary, quintimal, pantamal?
20:19:55 <wob_jonas> s/pantamal/pentamal/
20:20:45 <wob_jonas> \oren\: for your font, can I request the character "兩" (which is related to "両")?
20:21:13 <wob_jonas> \oren\: it's another character that's rare in Japanese, but more common in Chinese
20:21:32 <fizzie> Quinary is I think the normal one.
20:21:45 <fizzie> "Quinary (base-5 or pental[1][2][3])", says Wikipedia.
20:22:25 <wob_jonas> fizzie: thanks
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20:49:53 <choco_chuck> quintopia: thanks but I've read that and am still not sure how to go about programming it
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20:56:22 * int-e idly wonders whether thumbs gets a lot of ups and downs.
20:56:34 <int-e> hmm, not here.
20:57:27 <quintopia> ive always called it pental
20:58:53 <wob_jonas> So a settee is the same as a couch. English has too many words, again.
20:59:45 <wob_jonas> `? settee
20:59:46 <HackEgo> settee? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:59:47 <wob_jonas> `? couch
20:59:48 <HackEgo> couch? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:59:49 <wob_jonas> `? coach
20:59:50 <HackEgo> coach? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:59:52 <int-e> newspeak is a terrible idea
21:00:15 <int-e> `grwp cloak
21:00:24 <HackEgo> No output.
21:00:25 <int-e> `grwp clock
21:00:27 <HackEgo> wise:Uninstalling software installed by the Wise Installation Wizard is unwise. It's neither clockwise nor counterclockwise nor otherwise.
21:05:13 <wob_jonas> Ha.
21:05:16 <wob_jonas> Is it awise?
21:05:23 <wob_jonas> Or inwise?
21:08:33 <int-e> wob_jonas: Actually I have more of a problem with the fact that english has too few words. A coach trains, but a train coach doesn't.
21:09:50 <wob_jonas> int-e: it has too many words, but also misses words for a few things. the latter isn't such a big problem, someone popular can spread new terminology when there's a need.
21:09:54 <int-e> (but they're both useful for moving people forward :-P)
21:10:45 <wob_jonas> I'd like a general word for people whose job is to talk with customers of the business directly (as opposed to only talking with co-workers or talking with nobody).
21:11:26 <zzo38> O, it is the "customer-speecher", I suppose, then.
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21:17:08 <int-e> salesdrone :P
21:17:20 <int-e> (or support slave)
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21:37:16 <quintopia> wob_jonas: macmillan dictionary defines the adjective "customer-facing". The associated jobs are "customer-facing roles".
21:37:34 <wob_jonas> quintopia: I see
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21:46:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MISC-x86]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53508&oldid=20089 * B jonas * (+55)
21:48:19 <fizzie> @wn settee
21:48:20 <lambdabot> *** "settee" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
21:48:20 <lambdabot> settee
21:48:20 <lambdabot> n 1: a long wooden bench with a back [syn: {settle}, {settee}]
21:48:20 <lambdabot> 2: a small sofa
21:48:38 <fizzie> That doesn't sound entirely equivalent.
21:49:09 <Taneb> ... I always called the larger sofa in my parents' living room the settee
21:49:25 <Taneb> English is a lie, words lack intrinsic meaning
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22:04:57 <int-e> fortunately people don't operate for long in a vacuum so there'll always be context
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22:39:07 <wob_jonas> `? trap
22:39:08 <HackEgo> trap? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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23:42:00 <quintopia> helloily
23:43:14 <moony> helloily the invisible
23:44:02 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIA!
23:44:11 <boily> mhelloony.
23:44:20 <boily> itym “helloily the eating”.
23:45:38 <moony> boily, i called you invisible because i missed your join message.
23:47:00 <boily> visibility is orthogonal to nutrition.
23:47:40 <quintopia> how many aubergine derivatives do i need to make before there is a Category:Aubergine derivatives?
23:48:16 <boily> I think we can rightfully categorize it now.
23:49:53 <boily> besides, aubergines derivatives are, like, the most bestest :D
23:57:54 <quintopia> such as aubergine parmesan
23:59:50 <boily> I cook a mean yu xiang aubergine.
2017-12-06
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00:01:09 <moony> what the heck is a aubergie
00:01:42 <moony> oh
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01:01:08 <boily> bonsœøırjan.
01:01:30 <oerjan> god kveily.
01:02:12 <oerjan> argh is tunes not loading
01:02:38 <oerjan> . o O ( maybe something's happened that i'm not supposed to know )
01:03:26 <oerjan> @metar ENVA
01:03:26 <lambdabot> ENVA 060050Z 24011KT 9999 FEW012 BKN017 02/M01 Q1009 RMK WIND 670FT 26015KT
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01:07:57 <quintopia> bonne nuily
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01:10:41 <boily> bonnuitopia!
01:10:45 <boily> @metar CYUL
01:10:51 <boily> huh.
01:11:02 <boily> int-e: IEUAREGHIOERGHIGOHIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!
01:11:02 <quintopia> here it is popup showers
01:11:07 <quintopia> annoying
01:11:23 <boily> `ysaclist (69)
01:11:24 <HackEgo> ysaclist (69): boily shachaf
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01:18:05 <boily> @metar CYUL
01:18:05 <lambdabot> CYUL 060100Z 15016KT 15SM -RA SCT045 OVC067 09/08 A2965 RMK SC3AC5 SLP043
01:18:31 <fizzie> oerjan: There was a new user who couldn't manage to get past the "introduce yourself" filter, is at least one thing that happened.
01:19:06 <fizzie> oerjan: (They tried twice, but on both occasions their introductions page edit attempted to remove an empty line, which isn't allowed.)
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01:26:12 <oerjan> it happens...
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01:33:14 <zzo38> Why doesn't the GURPS rules mention how many points a fear of left handed plumbers is worth? (It does mention such a fear, but doesn't tell you how many points)
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01:55:33 <zzo38> Are you going to add a {{#precomment}} command into the wiki to hide text that comes before this command? Mainly it is in case it is a comment introducer for some other programming language (such as C or JavaScript) that you want to not display, so that the program will still work if downloaded.
01:57:28 <zzo38> The other command to add would be {{#beginraw}} command, which causes it to stop parsing all further commands, treating the entire rest of the page as raw text, which is displayed as fix pitch preformatted text.
01:58:20 <zzo38> (While you can add a space in front, you might not want all of the lines to have a space.)
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02:51:49 <oerjan> `addquote <shachaf> int-e: Do you like this? <int-e> It depends on the context. In the context of "Do you like _?", I hate it.
02:51:51 <HackEgo> 1316) <shachaf> int-e: Do you like this? <int-e> It depends on the context. In the context of "Do you like _?", I hate it.
02:53:38 <shachaf> Clearly oerjan likes this
02:53:49 <oerjan> CLEARLY
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03:08:13 <quintopia> zzo38: the <nowiki> tag sounds a lot like your {{#beginraw}}. what is the difference?
03:08:31 <quintopia> i guess you'd have to do <nowiki><pre> to get preformatted text
03:16:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53509&oldid=53499 * Oerjan * (+283) Rescue dead links
03:17:57 <oerjan> quintopia: please use the {{deadlink}} template so someone else can attempt to rescue links twh
03:18:17 <quintopia> kk
03:18:25 <quintopia> how
03:18:39 <oerjan> just put a {{deadlink}} after the link
03:18:53 <oerjan> alternatively, you can try to search on wayback yourself first
03:18:57 <quintopia> was that link that important?
03:19:28 <oerjan> well mostly the surrounding info in this case, since the link actually _was_ somewhere else on the page
03:20:12 <oerjan> (in a less convenient form.)
03:20:15 <quintopia> the surrounding info seemed very unimportant
03:22:03 <oerjan> it's traditional.
03:22:10 * oerjan grins evilly
03:22:24 <oerjan> (the argument that beats all reason)
03:24:20 <oerjan> ok, but "remove dead link" is the wrong reason for removing it (in particulr, making me do all the work to try to rescue it)
03:24:26 <oerjan> *+a
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03:51:25 <moony> We need to port brainfuck to the ethereum blockchain
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04:03:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bauberqueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53510&oldid=53507 * Quintopia * (+353) add quine
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04:08:21 <zzo38> quintopia: The difference is that there is no command to end it.
04:18:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bauberqueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53511&oldid=53510 * Quintopia * (-14) golf quine
04:20:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53512&oldid=53476 * Quintopia * (+17) influenced bauberqueue
04:20:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ResPlicate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53513&oldid=52922 * Quintopia * (+15) influenced bauberqueue
04:22:29 <quintopia> zzo38: so that none of the other wiki formatting after it appears at all? no footer or anything? that doesn't seem good...
04:24:58 <zzo38> No, I don't mean that
04:25:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ResPlicate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53514&oldid=53513 * Quintopia * (+3) paradigm
04:25:38 <zzo38> I mean that the rest of the text you have entered is raw and preformatted; only EOF marks the end of that, and then the wiki footer and stuff appears
04:32:34 <quintopia> oh i think <nowiki> does the same thing if you just omit the </nowiki> tag.
04:37:27 <zzo38> Maybe, but then what if the text you want includes the text "</nowiki>"? Then it won't work. Fossil Wiki supports stuff such as <verbatim-1> so that you can specify a number so that you can include whatever text you want. (Fossil also supports defining a wiki page as plain, so it supports no special commands at all.)
04:38:14 <quintopia> oh nice
04:48:51 <Sgeo_> https://arxiv.org/abs/1712.01815
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05:44:39 <oerjan> quintopia: i'm definitely also using .ul for underload files.
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06:36:17 <\oren\> 兩? hmm, those inner things are "enter" not "person"...
06:36:51 <\oren\> I'll have to be careful drawring them
06:43:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bauberqueue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53515&oldid=53511 * Quintopia * (-8) Actually, it's a true quine
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09:40:04 <b_jonas> zzo38: re a precommend command, instead of that, on http://perlmonks.org we have <code>...</code> pseudo-html tags to mark code, which has both the effect that it takes everything inside it literally, and that there's an easy way to download just the code from a node as plain text
09:41:25 <b_jonas> The drawback is that you can only put code encoded as cp1252 in it, because that's the native encoding the source code of nodes is written in, non-cp1252 characters have to be ampersand-encoded, but ampersands aren't special inside code tags.
09:42:50 <b_jonas> \oren\: "careful drawing them" => well yes, and you're a bit cramped for space, but it should still fit in your 16x16 grid I think
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09:52:25 <b_jonas> `slashlearn greater/A greater than sign instructs the shell to send the output of the command to a file. Not very mnemonic, but a grater is the closest thing to a file that ASCII has.
09:52:26 <HackEgo> Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>
09:52:31 <b_jonas> `slashlearn greater//A greater than sign instructs the shell to send the output of the command to a file. Not very mnemonic, but a grater is the closest thing to a file that ASCII has.
09:52:33 <HackEgo> Learned 'greater': A greater than sign instructs the shell to send the output of the command to a file. Not very mnemonic, but a grater is the closest thing to a file that ASCII has.
09:53:04 <int-e> @tell boily int-e: IEUAREGHIOERGHIGOHIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH! <-- please wait at least 5 minutes before panicking, because lambdabot takes a while to get here after rejoining, and it's set up to do that automatically.
09:53:04 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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10:15:15 <shachaf> happy independence day hth
10:22:02 <b_jonas> huh what?
10:29:23 <fizzie> 100 years of Finlandery.
10:32:28 <fizzie> They're lighting up a lot of places around the world with blue-white lights, but as far as I can tell nothing here in London. :/
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10:33:14 <fizzie> (San Francisco City Hall, though.)
10:45:01 <shachaf> Hmm, anywhere in Berkeley?
10:45:08 <shachaf> Lots of Finns here
10:48:05 <fizzie> Maybe not. I haven't found a proper exhaustive list, just two separate news articles.
10:49:38 <shachaf> I guess I'll be going to SF tomorrow.
10:50:32 <shachaf> I mean today.
10:59:59 <shachaf> @tell boily ptlist should remind you to turn on captions
10:59:59 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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11:00:14 <shachaf> @tell boily it's scow when you watch a whole pt and then realize you had captions off
11:00:14 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:06:00 <fizzie> "San Francisco, California, will see a Finnish flag flying over its City Hall on Wednesday and the building's facade illuminated blue and white from 4:15 PM local time until midnight." https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/finlands_blue__white_around_the_world_for_centennial_celebrations/9961343
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11:46:47 <b_jonas> I see
11:47:08 <b_jonas> `? ptlist
11:47:09 <HackEgo> ptlist? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
11:47:11 <b_jonas> what's that?
11:50:17 <boily> b_jellonas.
11:50:22 <boily> @massages-loud
11:50:22 <lambdabot> int-e said 1h 57m 18s ago: int-e: IEUAREGHIOERGHIGOHIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH! <-- please wait at least 5 minutes before panicking, because lambdabot takes a while to get
11:50:23 <lambdabot> here after rejoining, and it's set up to do that automatically.
11:50:23 <lambdabot> shachaf said 50m 23s ago: ptlist should remind you to turn on captions
11:50:23 <lambdabot> shachaf said 50m 8s ago: it's scow when you watch a whole pt and then realize you had captions off
11:50:54 <boily> oh, that pt! tdh.
11:51:09 <boily> b_jonas: Primitive Technology.
11:51:30 <boily> @tell int-e int-ello. I like to recklessly holler ^^
11:51:30 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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12:12:39 <int-e> `dontaskdonttelllist
12:12:40 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: q​u​i​n​t​o​p​i​a​ m​y​n​a​m​e​ i​n​t​-​e​
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12:41:57 <fizzie> I keep getting spam with the subject line "Reverse-Engineering the ZTE ZXDSL 931WIIA Firmware" (because I once wrote a page about that), and every time for ten seconds or so I think it might be a non-spam email for once.
12:46:49 <int-e> good job, spammers, well done, keep up the good work
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14:52:44 <fizzie> Weird. https://raw.githubusercontent.com/gcc-mirror/gcc/master/gcc/po/fi.po has the translation "säiekohtaista muistia ei tueta tälle kohteelle" (thread-local storage not supported for this target) for 67 different messages, none of which have anything to do with TLS.
14:53:12 <b_jonas> fizzie: wow. report a bug.
14:55:13 <b_jonas> fizzie: also, I've had so many bad experiences with hungarian localized software that I simply don't use hungarian localization whenever possible
14:55:18 <fizzie> I haven't managed to coax any Finnish messages out of my GCC installation.
14:55:29 <fizzie> I was just checking these to see if they translated the 'long long long' joke.
14:56:19 <fizzie> Maybe I have to install 'gcc-7-locales' to get them.
14:56:30 <fizzie> Yep.
14:57:00 <b_jonas> I also try to avoid mirrors in Hungary by the way, and occasionally have to override these automatic geographic mirror choosers for that
14:58:46 <Taneb> What's the long long long joke?
15:01:20 <b_jonas> the whole "long long" thing is dangerous, because very old compilers just silently interpret it as "long", which isn't just a stupid interpretation in first place
15:01:42 <b_jonas> that syntax shouldn't have been used in first place
15:02:01 <b_jonas> nor "ll" as a modifier in printf for similar reasons
15:10:32 <fizzie> Taneb: If you try to use 'long long long' as a type, the error message is "‘long long long’ is too long for GCC".
15:10:47 <Taneb> Ah, I see!
15:11:15 <fizzie> (Or "”long long long” on liian pitkä GCC:lle", so yes, they did translate it, though it loses a bit in translation for not repeating "long".)
15:13:12 <b_jonas> do they have a custom message for any of "short long", "long short", "short short", "long char", "short wchar_t", "signed signed", "signed unsigned", "unsigned signed", "unsigned unsigned", "signed wchar_t", "unsigned wchar_t", "long bool", "signed bool", "unsigned bool" etc?
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15:14:05 <fizzie> Not as far as I know. Or, rather, they have messages, but they're very businesslike. "error: both ‘signed’ and ‘unsigned’ in declaration specifiers" and so on.
15:14:46 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, so no custom stuff
15:14:50 <fizzie> Also if you do 'long long long long x', you get "'long long long' is too long" twice, possibly due to error recovery.
15:15:42 <fizzie> For some reason, if I try some of those operations where they have the nonsense string in the fi.po file, it just uses the English text without a translation. Wonder what that's all about.
15:17:02 <b_jonas> fizzie: maybe that bug is newer than your gcc?
15:20:37 <fizzie> I guess that's possible. Or maybe they're somehow disabled, but I don't know how to read the file syntax. (Also the text "ehtolausekkeessa ei-lvalue-taulukko" (non-lvalue array in a conditional expression) appears for 22 unrelated messages, like "Enable loop distribution on trees." and "Enable loop vectorization on trees.")
15:22:27 <fizzie> github's GCC mirror can't show blame or log for the file (it's too long to show, and the commit history takes "too long to generate"), so I can't tell if it's a recent issue or not. Don't feel like cloning GCC. Maybe I'll come back to this later.
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16:18:40 <int-e> meh, hg...
16:19:50 <int-e> "hg remove -A", why not have that as an option for hg ci? (I've found -A but I only want the removal part.)
16:26:14 <zzo38> Do you have a example Fuun RNA program? I tried writing a program to interpret the Fuun DNA program in order to achieve the RNA, but it doesn't work after the first step, somehow.
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19:25:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bauberqueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53516&oldid=53515 * Quintopia * (-41) golf quine
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21:38:12 <wob_jonas> zzo38: a lot of people participated in that ICFP and many of them probably have put an interpreter available online, so you could use one of those.
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21:43:27 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sadly the websites of most old icfp contests are badly maintained, including http://save-endo.cs.uu.nl/ , so you'll have to find individual team's writeups elsewhere
21:43:40 <zzo38> But where is it?
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22:22:02 <wob_jonas> Is there a library structure generic that is just a structure made of a key and a value part, but comparing and hashing it looks only at the key part?
22:25:01 <wob_jonas> Uh wait, wrong channel. Sorry.
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23:13:28 <boily> fungot: cucumber.
23:13:28 <fungot> boily: why does smalltalk have authority on the topic of the channel on all of this so called " right track". didn't know that...)
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23:20:07 <shachaf> `olist 1107
23:20:07 <HackEgo> olist 1107: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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23:22:44 <boily> thachaf!
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2017-12-07
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00:11:10 <boily> `5 w
00:11:16 <HackEgo> 1/1:pdf//PDF stands for Pretty Depressing Format. \ vorpal//Vorpal writes software for boring machines. Really big ones. \ twoducks//TwoDucks programming language was invented in 2023. \ til//TIL that TIL means Today I Learned \ hexham//Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico
00:11:41 <shachaf> `dowt vorpal
00:11:48 <HackEgo> 0:2012-02-16 Initïal import. \ 8342:2016-06-05 <oerjän> learn Vorpal writes software for boring machines. Really big ones.
00:12:00 <shachaf> `` hg cat -r 0 wisdom/vorpal
00:12:01 <HackEgo> Vorpal is really boring. Seriously, you have no idea.
00:13:35 <moony> Anyone want to try and port Brainfuck to Ethereum?
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00:21:53 <garit> moony: its so absurd that almost starts to makes sense again =))
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01:41:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53517&oldid=53459 * Schozi * (+562) /* Based on dimensions */
01:50:49 <boily> `slwd hexham//s/$/./
01:50:52 <HackEgo> hexham//Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico.
01:53:25 <boily> `? cucumber
01:53:26 <HackEgo> cucumber? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
02:04:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53518&oldid=53512 * Boily * (+36)
02:05:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:Aubergine derivatives]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53519 * Boily * (+42) Created page with "Derivatives of the [[Aubergine]] language."
02:05:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Purple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53520&oldid=46047 * Boily * (+35)
02:06:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[UberGenes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53521&oldid=45717 * Boily * (+36)
02:06:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Silberjoder]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53522&oldid=51838 * Boily * (+35)
02:07:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bauberqueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53523&oldid=53516 * Boily * (+36)
02:15:00 <boily> is a language with derivatives a derivative of itself?
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02:56:45 <zzo38> I managed to get the self check screen to display, although step 21 fails, and steps 11 and 12 are wrong
02:59:59 <zzo38> (Step 21 might be failing due to a EAGAIN error, though)
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03:39:46 <zzo38> I think I now got the Fuun RNA implementation correct.
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04:05:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ReverseFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53524&oldid=8406 * Challenger5 * (+35)
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05:00:29 <shachaf> `? lie
05:00:30 <HackEgo> Lies are even easier than monoids. They form groups, known as Lie groups.
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06:53:13 <shachaf> oerjan: some wisdom: https://twitter.com/rygorous/status/938661397738561537
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10:21:38 <oerjan> `addquote <Taneb> English is a lie, words lack intrinsic meaning <int-e> fortunately people don't operate for long in a vacuum so there'll always be context
10:21:42 <HackEgo> 1317) <Taneb> English is a lie, words lack intrinsic meaning <int-e> fortunately people don't operate for long in a vacuum so there'll always be context
10:24:42 <shachaf> good afternoerjan
10:24:48 <shachaf> @time oerjan
10:24:48 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Thu Dec 7 11:24:48 2017
10:24:54 <shachaf> awGood beforenoerjan
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10:33:38 <oerjan> oo, list
10:34:15 <oerjan> good morning shachaf
10:34:36 <oerjan> did you know your nick has no letters in common with "good morning"
10:38:25 <Taneb> A commutative monoid is just a monoid in the category of monoids
10:40:07 <shachaf> oerjan: i was not aware of that thx tdh hug hand
10:40:16 <shachaf> Taneb: Is that true?
10:40:43 <Taneb> shachaf: Wikipedia says so, but on the other hand anyone can edit it
10:40:52 <Taneb> Apparently it follows from the Eckmann-Hilton theorem
10:41:16 <shachaf> eek, man
10:41:43 <shachaf> I think I've seen this one before.
10:41:53 <shachaf> But I'd completely forgotten about it.
10:42:16 <shachaf> Well, nearly completely forgotten. Maybe I have completely forgotten about it, but then I wouldn't know about seeing it before.
10:46:44 <shachaf> Do you know about exterior derivatives and exterior algebras and things?
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10:50:24 <oerjan> even boily doesn't follow the Esolang:Policy :(
10:53:45 <Taneb> shachaf: I do not!
10:53:54 <Taneb> My knowlege of algebra is lacking a great deal
10:54:02 <Taneb> Certainly a great deal more than I'd like
10:56:46 <shachaf> `? commutative monoid
10:56:48 <HackEgo> commutative monoid? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
10:56:54 <shachaf> Taneb: twh
11:04:40 <int-e> `? great deal
11:04:41 <HackEgo> great deal? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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15:54:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53525&oldid=52070 * Keymaker * (+448) Links gone dead?
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16:46:38 <b_jonas> lol
16:47:55 <b_jonas> also, didn't MaRo specifically deny this in advance?
17:20:34 <zzo38> Deny what is advance?
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17:24:16 <Taneb> Who is MaRo?
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17:43:23 <b_jonas> nope, turns out he didn't deny it
17:43:39 <b_jonas> didn't deny https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/unstable-variants-2017-12-06 in https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/un-ending-saga-part-1-2017-11-06
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20:15:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53526&oldid=53525 * Oerjan * (+163) /* All links gone dead */ It's alive!
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23:48:07 <quintopia> moonello
2017-12-08
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04:26:36 <zzo38> Are there any kind of unusual rules you know of about point calculation of point-based role-playing systems, other than the rules used in GURPS and BESM 3? (My point calculator program supports both of these things, as well as some other custom rules.)
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05:17:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CASTLE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53527&oldid=46390 * Quintopia * (+56) Fix some typos
05:26:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53528&oldid=53518 * Quintopia * (-2) This is how the Brainfuck page does it
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05:51:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53529&oldid=53224 * Quintopia * (+278) Add bauberqueue and purple quine, move the aubergine quine to the cheating section
05:53:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53530&oldid=53529 * Quintopia * (-33) Change aubergine quine to easy to understand golfed version
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10:11:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: by point calculatoin, do you mean calculation of XP you gain? or some other points?
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10:51:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53531&oldid=53496 * YuvalM * (+143)
10:56:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53532&oldid=51903 * YuvalM * (+198) /* z = x or y (boolean, logical) */
10:57:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53533&oldid=53532 * YuvalM * (-1) /* z = x or y (boolean, logical) */
11:13:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53534&oldid=53533 * YuvalM * (+280)
11:15:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53535&oldid=53534 * YuvalM * (+14)
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11:45:39 <mroman> I made a chess variant (http://mroman.ch/b/chess.html). Now I guess I need to program an AI for it.
11:49:11 <mroman> But there are already 57101117117774389051392000000 possible placements in the placement phase.
11:53:33 <mroman> more like 5.139100540599694e28
11:53:43 <mroman> 7!*7!*(40!/26!)
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12:02:23 <boily> mrelloman! classic AI with tree pruning and heuristics and stuff?
12:04:00 <shachaf> just use alphazero hth
12:04:48 <b_jonas> wtf. so apparently the northern third of Sweden is either not a completely empty wasteland with only elks and reindeers and reindeer hunters living there, or else some supervillain wants us to think that it isn't and get people to travel there so they can capture them
12:05:08 <b_jonas> as in, someone is organizing a conference there: http://knuth80.elfbrink.se/
12:05:37 <b_jonas> seriously, in actual northern Sweden, not just, like, the north part of the southern half of sweden
12:05:56 <b_jonas> there aren't even roads or other infrastructure there, I think
12:06:02 <b_jonas> how would people even go there?
12:09:33 <mroman> boily: that's probably the best to start with, yes.
12:10:01 <mroman> although the easiest thing to start off would be something that makes random moves but always kills if it can.
12:10:12 <mroman> (and a completely random placement :D)
12:11:06 <mroman> although you gotta be careful with that because you can actually loose the game during the placement phase already if your king is in a bad spot after the placement
12:11:13 <mroman> you migth not be able to make a first move
12:12:46 <mroman> Also I'm training an ANN right now to recognize faces in pictures resampled to 12x12
12:14:38 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/12x12.png <- like such
12:15:31 <mroman> works surprisingly well.
12:15:36 <b_jonas> mroman: can it recognize Kappa?
12:15:43 <mroman> what's that?
12:16:23 <mroman> right now it has a (sensitivity, specificity) of (~0.8, ~0.8)
12:18:08 <boily> b_jellonas. cucumber kappa?
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12:24:01 <b_jonas> mroman: Kappa is one of the more used special emoticon memes on twitch.tv , the video game streaming website
12:25:05 <fizzie> b_jonas: I've driven through (and I think stayed overnight in?) Kiruna, which is significantly more northern Sweden, and can confirm there were roads.
12:25:26 <b_jonas> fizzie: I see
12:27:04 <fizzie> (If you're driving from Finland to Norway and don't take the ferry, the natural route is Kemi-Kiruna-Narvik, mostly on the E10.)
12:27:04 <b_jonas> that's definitely more to the north than I've been to
12:28:09 <fizzie> One of my coworkers just came back from Tromsø, which is probably more northern than I've ever been.
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12:29:07 <b_jonas> I see
12:32:55 <fizzie> It's kind of funny, if you zoom in to the Norway/Sweden border, the Google Maps seems to get significantly more high-res on the Norway side: https://goo.gl/maps/z9ufZEtArXD2
12:33:19 <fizzie> (At least at that particular spot.)
12:34:52 <mroman> b_jonas: I see.
12:35:15 <mroman> I hate it when people do classification stuff and report accuracy.
12:35:22 <b_jonas> fizzie: that usually happens when they have photos made from airplane on one side, but only satellite photos on the other side
12:35:23 <mroman> Accuracy is shit.
12:37:12 <b_jonas> These days they also have crazy 3D reconstructed images of some parts.
12:37:49 <b_jonas> Even 3d images of individual trees.
12:38:13 <b_jonas> Quite crazy really.
12:38:44 <mroman> train corporations use scanning of trees and shit to determine which trees are in danger of falling on the rails
12:38:47 <mroman> then cut them down.
12:38:56 <mroman> that's also quite crazy.
12:40:39 <b_jonas> as for trains, what's quite crazy to me is the metro tunnels in Stockholm. have you seen them? they are just dug out with explosives and left like that, with no concrete rings supporting the walls anywhere
12:41:11 <b_jonas> it's quite an amazing contrast to the tunnels here, which have concrete walls everywhere, to isolate the tunnel from the ground around and keep the water and ground out
12:41:50 <b_jonas> of course, Sweden pays for this with the downside that they don't have soil for agriculture, which is quite a high price to pay for those few railway tunnels
12:43:44 <b_jonas> also, bridges. they have a ton of water channels with medium length bridges over it. and sometimes there's two parallel bridges over water, one above the other, the railway on the bottom bridge and road on the top bridge.
12:43:52 <b_jonas> that's impossible here, because the terrain is just too flat
12:44:07 <b_jonas> but there, they have steep shores within the city and small canals
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12:52:36 <mroman> People should use sensitivity, specificity and confidence to rate their classification performance even if you have more than two classes.
13:28:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ave * New user account
13:29:55 <fizzie> b_jonas: One of my coworkers moved to the US to start a startup on aerial/satellite photo analysis, https://tensorflight.io/
13:31:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53536&oldid=53531 * Ave * (+241)
13:31:55 <fizzie> Looks like they've since pivoted to be about property inspections for insurance-related matters. It was something more generic last I looked.
14:14:40 <mroman> fizzie: at least it has a useless animation that lags browsers and wastes energy on their website :D
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14:41:27 <fizzie> mroman: Yeah, that's new too. :)
14:51:02 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/mandel.html
14:51:07 <mroman> if u like laggy webpages
14:51:08 <mroman> this is it
14:52:27 <mroman> the newest firefox really sucks at rendering it.
14:52:31 <mroman> the older versions were much faster
14:53:56 <Taneb> I suspect that browser designers weren't optimizing to that particular use case
15:03:35 <mroman> yeh
15:04:07 <mroman> but now I get complaint from customers being unable to use my main business e-commerce e-shop e-website due to the new firefox.
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15:05:41 <Taneb> That sounds e-awful
15:05:46 <Taneb> I'm so e-sorry for you
15:06:09 <mroman> well... I gotta math-jaxify my pseudo-paper now.
15:11:01 <mroman> can pandoc convert to mathjax?
15:11:44 <Taneb> I think so? Not sure though
15:12:44 <mroman> hm.
15:12:47 <mroman> but it looks crappy
15:12:51 <mroman> the tables at least.
15:13:25 <mroman> hopefully fixable with some CSS.
15:16:21 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/guides/sensspec.html
15:16:22 <mroman> eww.
15:19:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alice]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53537 * Martin Ender * (+712) Create page... one day I might convert the language spec from Markdown to MediaWiki if I can be bothered...
15:21:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Martin Ender]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53538&oldid=47181 * Martin Ender * (+158)
15:23:52 <mroman> ah. lil borders around the tables and it looks much better.
15:25:14 <mroman> and text-transform.
15:25:20 <mroman> pandoc is great.
15:25:22 <mroman> *thumbs up*
15:25:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alice]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53539&oldid=53537 * Martin Ender * (-78) whoops
15:26:18 <Taneb> \o/
15:27:08 <mroman> If you like sums, this is for you :D
15:27:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Retina]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53540&oldid=46718 * Martin Ender * (+102) catching up with my name change
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15:28:09 <mroman> I wrote that as a stackoverflow answer.
15:28:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Retina]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53541&oldid=53540 * Martin Ender * (-1) /* External resources */
15:28:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alice]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53542&oldid=53539 * Martin Ender * (-1) /* External Resources */
15:29:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53543&oldid=44839 * Martin Ender * (+63) catching up with my name change
15:29:31 <mroman> probably a lot of spelling errors in there still
15:32:05 <Taneb> "this aren't all true negatives" I think should be "these aren't all the true negatives"
15:32:39 <mroman> which section is that?
15:32:56 <Taneb> N-Ary Classification?
15:33:09 <Taneb> In Sensitivity and Specifiticity
15:33:14 <Taneb> *Specificity
15:33:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53544&oldid=47245 * Martin Ender * (+66) catching up with my name change
15:33:31 <mroman> right.
15:33:38 <mroman> "all the true negatives"
15:34:16 <Taneb> And s/this/these/
15:34:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brian & Chuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53545&oldid=46558 * Martin Ender * (+69) catching up with my name change
15:34:58 <Taneb> What is your first language, ooi?
15:35:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stack Cats]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53546&oldid=47183 * Martin Ender * (+70) catching up with my name change
15:35:24 <mroman> German.
15:35:33 <Taneb> :)
15:35:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Retina]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53547&oldid=53541 * Martin Ender * (+0) /* External resources */
15:35:34 <mroman> The language of the norths.
15:35:38 <mroman> although it's south from you probably
15:35:39 <mroman> :D
15:35:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53548&oldid=53543 * Martin Ender * (+0) /* External resources */
15:36:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alice]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53549&oldid=53542 * Martin Ender * (+0) /* External Resources */
15:36:21 <Taneb> I'm currently living in what I think is "south" and it's still further north than most of Germany
15:36:32 <Taneb> Although not as much Germany as I thought
15:37:09 <Taneb> Roughly the same latitude as Brunswick?
15:37:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53550&oldid=53504 * Martin Ender * (+12) /* A */ add Alice
15:38:28 <mroman> british?
15:38:30 <mroman> or finn?
15:38:47 <Taneb> British, I'm from the old esoteric homeland of Hexham and currently in Cambridge
15:40:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53551&oldid=53530 * Martin Ender * (+314) /* Real Quines */ add Alice
15:49:15 <mroman> *reinterpret_cast<private_member_type*>(reinterpret_cast<cha‌​r*>(&my_c.public_mem‌​ber) + sizeof(my_c.public_member)) = 0xDEFACED
15:49:19 <mroman> C++ is just so shitty
15:50:34 <zseri> ok
15:50:42 <zseri> but delphi is worse
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17:22:34 <zzo38> b_jonas: I mean calculations of point totals of all of the traits based on any modifiers and so on you add on to them, how to calculate them based on that
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18:21:33 <int-e> @metar lowi
18:21:34 <lambdabot> LOWI 081750Z 27004KT 8000 -RASN SCT007 SCT020 BKN060 01/00 Q1011 R08/29//95 NOSIG
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19:46:03 <oerjan> (bit silly, but suggested in a global notice)
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20:01:24 <oerjan> test: [wiki] [[Alice]] N
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20:12:16 <oerjan> test: <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]]
20:12:51 <oerjan> test: <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]]
20:13:45 <oerjan> for some reason those show up different in the logs...
20:29:22 <int-e> grrrr, is there a replacement for "Open in Browser" that works with FF 57
20:29:59 <int-e> oh stupid question
20:31:05 <oerjan> i think it's an IE problem caused by some strange characters mroman used in a particular line
20:31:45 <int-e> the right question is, why does the plugin currently not work for the #esoteric logs
20:31:55 <int-e> s/plugin/addon/
20:32:24 <oerjan> when i edit that away, the file shows fine. but with it, the _previous_ N-something lines get HackEgo's wiki announcements to show weirdly (but before that again they're as they use to.)
20:33:16 <oerjan> mind you, the weird thing is that IE _shows_ ^C's as boxes instead of leaving them out entirely, and also has problems selecting the line.
20:33:49 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
20:39:08 <int-e> well, links shows dots
20:40:00 <int-e> Anyway, really unhappy with how many things Firefox 57 broke.
20:48:44 <oerjan> . o O ( has anyone forked 56 yet )
20:49:12 <shachaf> `factor 56
20:49:20 <HackEgo> 56: 2 2 2 7
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20:50:43 <shachaf> I learned about an interesting conjecture yesterday.
20:52:01 <Taneb> What was it?
20:52:03 <shachaf> If you write a greedy algorithm for the "infinite queens" problem, i.e. you start in the corner of an infinite chessboard, and for each subsequent row you put a queen in the leftmost row where it doesn't threaten any other queen, the queens form approximately two lines from the corner.
20:52:17 <shachaf> The slopes of those lines seem to be approximately phi and 1/phi
20:52:42 <Taneb> Hmm, interesting!
20:53:16 <garit> There is exact solution with the same pattern without phi being involved
20:53:56 <shachaf> What do you mean?
20:54:04 <garit> Using horse steps of a previous queen
20:54:38 <shachaf> I'm specifically describing the greedy algorithm.
20:54:45 <shachaf> Or what do you mean by horse steps?
20:56:06 <garit> Right-down-down-down from a previous queen, this cell is always free (assuming no prepositioned queens), and when we reach the bottom we repeat the same process on a second half of a board
20:57:23 <garit> Pattern is slightly different for even and odd boards. And infinity isn't even or odd
20:57:52 <shachaf> Bottom?
20:57:58 <shachaf> I'm talking about an infinite board.
20:58:33 <garit> Then just start to build second line one infinity to the right :P
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20:59:12 <Taneb> The pattern for the greedy algorithm goes 1,3,5,2,4,6,8,10,7, right?
21:00:12 <shachaf> I think your 6 threatens your 1
21:00:34 <shachaf> It goes http://oeis.org/A065188
21:01:40 <Taneb> Oh darn, it does
21:01:49 <Taneb> Forgot about diagonals
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21:49:30 <oerjan> shachaf: you said rows, that link says antidiagonals
21:55:17 <shachaf> oerjan: ?
21:55:34 <shachaf> Oh, so it does.
21:56:04 <shachaf> But I think you end up with the same pattern maybe?
21:56:56 <shachaf> Though maybe not. Or maybe it's not known, because when I heard this problem it wasn't even proven whether it was a permutation.
22:06:00 <oerjan> hm the grid shown under "example" _does_ look consistent with doing it column by column
22:11:25 <fizzie> Opinion poll: should I, or should I not, copy the https://esolangs.org/forum/ archive over to the new place?
22:11:36 <fizzie> It's mostly DVD sales spam, but there's a few actual conversations.
22:11:44 <shachaf> Any good DVDs?
22:12:31 <fizzie> Probably not, but it's the LOWEST PRICE.
22:13:15 <oerjan> COPY ALL THE THINGS
22:13:18 <shachaf> Do they have Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download on DVD?
22:15:05 <quintopia> no.
22:15:11 <quintopia> it says download right in the name.
22:15:14 <quintopia> no dvds allowed
22:15:20 <shachaf> Yes, that's the name.
22:15:27 <int-e> Wait, you don't download DVDs?
22:15:40 <quintopia> what does the last d stand for int-e?
22:15:49 <int-e> Information technology is so limited.
22:16:06 <quintopia> for now
22:16:13 <quintopia> we're still waiting on diamond age
22:16:24 <int-e> quintopia: digital versatile downloadable?
22:16:58 <quintopia> exactly! nothing about downloading anywhere!
22:17:04 <int-e> (DVD *is* one of the funnier acronyms... based on the "V")
22:17:22 <int-e> Almost as funnny as PCMCIA.
22:18:00 <oerjan> shachaf: ok, i convinced myself it's equivalent whether you do it by antidiagonals or by columns
22:18:15 <quintopia> anyway, i vote for copying over the forum in read-only format. and if it's possible to remove the spam, that too
22:18:29 <oerjan> in particular there is one in each column
22:18:39 <int-e> (Of course it's hard to beat intel's IE ("innovation engine") (because why stop at *one* super privileged hardly accessible processor in the processor (the ME), when you can have two?))
22:19:35 <int-e> now to figure out what the other discussion is about...
22:19:52 <oerjan> . o O ( PCMCIA, it's fun to be ... )
22:23:22 <oerjan> proving that there's one in each row seems a bit trickier
22:25:37 <oerjan> which means it might not be a permutation, if it's not bijective.
22:25:50 <oerjan> (surjective)
22:26:54 <int-e> > let go y l d r = let x = head [x | x <- [1..], not ((x+y) `S.member` l), not (x `S.member` d), not ((x-y) `S.member` r)] in x : go (y+1) (S.insert (x+y) l) (S.insert x d) (S.insert (x-y) r) in go 1 S.empty S.empty S.empty
22:26:56 <lambdabot> [1,3,5,2,4,9,11,13,15,6,8,19,7,22,10,25,27,29,31,12,14,35,37,39,41,16,18,45,...
22:30:46 <int-e> Hmm, funny. I use infix for S.member, but not S.insert...
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23:29:48 <int-e> shachaf: at least this lends itself to drawing pictures like this: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/queens.png
23:30:34 <quintopia> what exactly is the greedy algorithm in question?
23:30:59 <quintopia> is it "for each row from the bottom place a queen in the leftmost unattacked position"?
23:31:31 <int-e> Well, I did it from the top, but yes.
23:32:04 <quintopia> and you got approximate lines of slope phi?
23:32:29 <int-e> Yes, but I do not understand why.
23:33:31 <quintopia> well, i mean, if someone were to say to me "hey can you believe the queens were close to a line? what do you think the slope of that line was?" my guess would be phi. It's the obvious choice for such a problem.
23:40:49 <int-e> It becomes more convincing when the 10001st queen is at slope 0.6181381861813818 and the 10002nd at slope 1.6179764047190561.
23:49:41 <quintopia> it's more convincing that it is intuitively true to me, but i am having a hard time formalizing my intuition. It has to do with the fact that a queen placed at (x,y) attacks all squares whose coordinates sum to x+y. And so, to go back to the left, you have to find an unused sum. What is the sequence of sums? 0,3,6,4,7,13,19,...
23:50:24 <quintopia> obviously it also has to do with the fact that phi and 1/phi are the most irrational positive numbers
23:51:13 <ais523> with a question like this, I think you'd need more evidence for it to /not/ be phi than for it to be phi :-P
23:51:48 <int-e> quintopia: the trouble with that line of reasoning is that many sums are unused.
23:59:49 <ais523> what proportion of the queens are placed to the right of all previous queens?
23:59:55 <ais523> that's likely to be a relevant part in the proof
2017-12-09
00:01:15 <int-e> same golden ratio (the slope of the right queens is one plus that proportion, because the queens to the right are always placed on the next free diagonal)
00:02:45 <ais523> well, it looks like if you reorder the queens by x-y coordinate, then half of them are on each side of the x=y linen
00:03:05 <int-e> for 10000: (3819,6181)
00:03:11 <ais523> that feels like it's the start of a proof
00:03:19 <ais523> but I'm too tired to work out the details
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00:33:15 <int-e> quintopia: In fact it appears that the antidiagonals (with constant x+y) only add noise to the otherwise pretty picture thing; if only diagonals (constant x-y) and vertical lines are considered, the queens could be placed at ([k*phi + 1], [k*(phi+1) + 1]) and ([k*(phi+1) + 1], [k*phi + 1]) for k >= 0, where [] is the floor function.
00:33:25 <int-e> s/ thing//
00:34:23 <int-e> (and phi = (1+sqrt(5))/2)
00:35:19 <int-e> so the challenge is to somehow show that the effect of the antidiagonals is negligible for those asymptotic slopes.
00:46:29 <int-e> (Everything seems to boil down to showing that all verticals and diagonals are occupied, and there are only two asymptotic slopes; given that, if d is the proportion of queens to the right of the main diagonal, the k-th "right" queen will end up around (k/d + k, k/d), and the k-th "left" queen at (k/(1-d) - k, k/(1-d)); in order to occupy all verticals, the densities of k/d+k and k/(1-d)-k must...
00:46:35 <int-e> ...sum to 1; hence, d/(1+d) + (1-d)/d = 1, 1 = d + d^2, d = (sqrt(5)-1)/2 = phi-1, and the resulting slopes are phi and phi+1...)
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01:04:16 <fizzie> Just as a note of caution, the recent changes feed may be a little flaky at first. I haven't set it up as an autostarted service.
01:12:41 <int-e> `relcome esowiki
01:12:43 <HackEgo> esowiki: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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02:31:02 <ais523> huh, so apparently someone's been writing an OS in subleq, of all things: http://esoteric.codes/post/168290778358/a-programming-language-with-only-one-command-and
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03:50:36 <\oren\> ok it took me this long but I have stuff working on my new computer
03:51:21 <\oren\> And decided what color I want my computer keys to glow
04:19:41 <zzo38> Incoming connections do not seem to work on my computer (even though it worked yesterday). Is that a problem with my computer? The ISP seems to think so.
04:24:08 <zzo38> Ah, I think I may have found the problem
04:24:19 <zzo38> Maybe.
04:24:26 <shachaf> ais523, int-e: Donald Knuth says he thinks this may never be proved.
04:24:38 <shachaf> Which seemed surprising to me.
04:24:41 <zzo38> No it seems to be correct
04:31:39 <ais523> shachaf: "this" = what? the queens problem?
04:31:57 <ais523> (also, I assume you didn't ask him just now, so presumably he was studying it earlier)
04:32:04 <\oren\> I wanna try this dawn os thing
04:32:29 <shachaf> ais523: Yes.
04:32:41 <shachaf> ais523: He mentioned it at a talk I went to yesterday, which is where I learned about it.
04:34:26 <shachaf> `? queen
04:34:27 <HackEgo> queen? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
04:34:28 <shachaf> `? shachaf
04:34:29 <HackEgo> Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions.
04:36:46 <ais523> huh, it isn't on OEIS (unless I made a data entry mistake)
04:37:17 <ais523> oh, I did make a data entry mistake
04:37:21 <ais523> http://oeis.org/A065188
04:37:49 <shachaf> Yes, I linked it above.
04:39:24 <ais523> not since I joined, I think?
04:40:07 <shachaf> Oh, I didn't know when you joined.
04:40:12 <shachaf> I thought you saw my original description.
04:47:34 <\oren\> http://gerigeri.uw.hu/DawnOS/img/dawnos.png
04:47:51 <\oren\> I think I detect anime waifus in that screenshot
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05:24:24 <ais523> int-e: shachaf: here's a much easier problem: make it so that the queens can only attack north-south and northeast-southeast
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05:24:37 <ais523> *northwest-southeast
05:25:02 <shachaf> Where do you put the corner?
05:25:08 <ais523> you'll find that the pattern is much simpler due to no random northeast-southwest lining-ups, and yet the ratio is still the golden ratio
05:25:18 <ais523> and this is based in int-e's picture, starting in the top left
05:25:45 <ais523> I think that should be very easy to prove
05:26:12 <ais523> then it might be possible to prove that the northeast-southwest lining-ups aren't common enough to make a long-term difference to the ratio
05:27:41 <zzo38> The DHCP server is giving me an invalid IP address "192.168.0.3" but somehow outgoing connections still work; incoming connections don't work. How to fix it?
05:31:40 <shachaf> Hmm.
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05:49:19 <zzo38> I fixed it
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05:58:03 <zzo38> I found out what the problem was and corrected it. Now the IP address changed back to what it was before, and it works (although the DNS will also have to be reverted; once it is, then it will work I expect)
06:00:33 <zzo38> I don't know why it suddenly stopped working today, but fortunately I managed to fix it, after figuring out what was the correct password for the modem (the people on the telephone gave me an incorrect password)
06:16:00 <shachaf> ais523: You're forbidding east-west too, of course
06:16:06 <shachaf> Except that's implicit in the greedy algorithm
06:17:21 <ais523> yes, EW is irrelevant here
06:17:43 <shachaf> But this gives us http://oeis.org/A002251
06:19:07 <shachaf> Or I guess you'd call it http://oeis.org/A019444
06:20:27 <shachaf> "Also, a lexicographically minimal sequence of distinct positive integers such that all values of a(n)-n are also distinct"
06:20:38 <shachaf> They don't make the connection explicit, this is probably worth submitting.
06:26:49 <shachaf> If you solve this problem Knuth will sign your thesis.
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06:37:30 <zzo38> fizzie: Copy the good messages from the old forum into a static document. The bad messages could be moved into another static document, maybe.
06:38:15 <zzo38> And, I have never heard of this "infinite queen" problem.
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07:22:04 <zzo38> I played chess earlier today, and my opponent resigned after I failed to recapture one of his pawns with one of my own, instead choosing to advance without capturing.
07:22:32 <esowiki> [[Crement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53554&oldid=53490 * Zzo38 * (+72) Categories
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08:15:41 <* Taneb> hello
08:15:49 <shachaf> Haneb
08:17:30 <Taneb> Is that a new bot specifically for the wiki I see?
08:17:58 <shachaf> HackEgo was both for the wiki you see and for the wiki you don't see
08:18:14 <shachaf> This one is more useful to you
08:18:14 <shachaf> Or maybe less useful?
08:19:00 <Taneb> I see
08:26:50 <shachaf> So Wythoff's Nim is a game where there are two piles, and you can remove some number from either pile, or you can remove from both piles, if you remove the same number from each one
08:27:12 <shachaf> This variation would allow you to move from one pile to the other as well.
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08:32:02 <shachaf> Of course this isn't guaranteed to terminate.
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08:35:37 <Taneb> shachaf, what is the objective?
08:35:39 * function terminates shachaf
08:35:42 <function> there we go
08:36:56 <shachaf> Taneb: You lose (or win?) if it's your turn and both piles are empty.
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09:29:09 <shachaf> I guess I'll email Sloane about this.
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10:18:37 <int-e> @tell ais523 I already gave a solution (though without proof) for that simplified version almost 5 hours before you proposed it :P
10:18:37 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
10:19:39 <function> @tell lambdabot that I'm testing lambdabot
10:19:39 <lambdabot> Nice try ;)
10:23:23 <shachaf> int-e: Huh, I didn't see that.
10:24:10 <shachaf> int-e: I was just writing an email to Sloane about it before and decided not to because ais523 wasn't here.
10:24:19 <shachaf> Also I wanted to think about it some more.
10:24:55 <shachaf> http://oeis.org/A002251 is indeed the best possible approximation of those two lines.
10:35:02 <int-e> Underlying this is an instance of the following amazing elementary theorem (which probably has a name, hmm.): If a,b > 1 are irrational numbers with 1/a + 1/b = 1, then the sequences ([a*k])_k and ([b*k])_k (k >= 1) are disjoint and cover the natural numbers >= 1, where again [] is the floor function.
10:35:53 <int-e> 1/phi + 1/(phi+1) = 1. (or, if you prefer, 1/phi + 1/phi^2 = 1)
10:40:46 <shachaf> This is apparently called Rayleigh's Theorem or Beatty's Theorem
10:40:53 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatty_sequence https://proofwiki.org/wiki/Beatty%27s_Theorem
10:41:00 <int-e> thanks
10:41:16 <int-e> (I was wondering how to search for it.)
10:42:10 <int-e> I considered starting from http://oeis.org/A002251 where the name Beatty comes up... would have been a viable route, probably :)
10:42:10 <shachaf> Are the two full queen sequences Beatty?
10:42:46 <int-e> No, they are too noisy (the lower "line" isn't even monotonically increasing).
10:43:26 <shachaf> Ah, right.
10:48:41 <shachaf> Did you figure out this theorem just now, or what?
10:48:54 <function> its fun reading through the commit history of /dev/random
10:54:01 <int-e> shachaf: no, I learned about it as a teenager
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10:54:43 <shachaf> That theorem was a teenager quite a long time ago.
10:54:54 <int-e> so was I :P
10:55:06 <int-e> (though not quite that long :P)
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10:58:00 <shachaf> I knew from reading OEIS that it was true for phi but I didn't realize it was true for any sequence.
10:58:04 <shachaf> p. fancy
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11:13:06 <fizzie> Taneb: Yes, though it doesn't do anything else than the recent change feed.
11:14:41 <shachaf> `5 w
11:14:46 <HackEgo> 1/2:procrasti//The Procrasti were an ancient people whose nation would have been a great empire if they'd ever got around to it. \ lie bracket//Politicians try to stay within the lie bracket: Not so many lies that voters cannot stand it, but not so few that they think you have nothing to give them. \ costume//Costumes are used for cosplay. Ta
11:14:51 <shachaf> `n
11:14:51 <HackEgo> 2/2:neb sometimes invents them. \ shrimp//Shrimp transcends the concept of meat. \ cookie//Hackego wants a cookie! *hangs*
11:15:21 <shachaf> Taneb: You don't invent all costumes?
11:15:29 <shachaf> `cwlprits cookie
11:15:36 <HackEgo> moonythedwar̈f
11:15:40 <shachaf> I knew it.
11:16:00 <int-e> `cat canary
11:16:00 <HackEgo> cat: canary: Permission denied
11:16:12 <int-e> `cat < canary
11:16:12 <shachaf> I should really go to sleep.
11:16:13 <HackEgo> cat: < canary: No such file or directory
11:16:17 <int-e> `` cat < canary
11:16:18 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: canary: Permission denied
11:16:34 <shachaf> `` file canary
11:16:35 <HackEgo> canary: empty
11:16:48 <shachaf> Remind me, do you follow the Mill?
11:18:16 <int-e> hmm, this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mill_architecture
11:18:44 <int-e> If so, I can't say that I'm following it. I'm vaguely aware that it exists.
11:18:59 <shachaf> Yes, that.
11:19:11 <shachaf> I went to their talk the other day, there are a few things that are still unclear.
11:19:38 <oerjan> keeping canary readonly sort of sabotages its purpose...
11:20:07 <int-e> `rm canary
11:20:28 <oerjan> `echo hi
11:20:28 <HackEgo> hi
11:20:35 * oerjan ogles int-e
11:20:37 <HackEgo> rm: remove write-protected regular empty file ‘canary’?
11:20:37 <int-e> `cat canary
11:20:38 <HackEgo> cat: canary: Permission denied
11:20:44 <int-e> ooh!
11:20:52 <int-e> it had to time out
11:21:05 <int-e> `` chmod u+w canary
11:21:06 <HackEgo> No output.
11:21:27 <int-e> `rm canary
11:21:28 <HackEgo> No output.
11:21:32 <int-e> `stat canary
11:21:33 <HackEgo> ​ File: ‘canary’ \ Size: 0 Blocks: 0 IO Block: 1024 regular empty file \ Device: 12h/18dInode: 672529 Links: 1 \ Access: (0644/-rw-r--r--) Uid: ( 5000/ UNKNOWN) Gid: ( 0/ UNKNOWN) \ Access: 2017-12-09 11:20:51.000000000 +0000 \ Modify: 2017-12-09 11:20:51.000000000 +0000 \ Change: 2017-12-09 11:20:51.0000000
11:22:10 <shachaf> `` ls -l canary
11:22:11 <HackEgo> ​-rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 Dec 9 11:20 canary
11:22:12 <int-e> I guess that was to be expected (recreating it from the repo will reset the access rights)
11:22:36 <int-e> `` chmod -r canary
11:22:36 <HackEgo> No output.
11:22:51 <int-e> I think it's fine this way.
11:22:56 <shachaf> I like the description of the Mill's belt: "hardware SSA'
11:23:00 <oerjan> `` ls -l canary
11:23:01 <HackEgo> ​--w------- 1 5000 0 0 Dec 9 11:20 canary
11:23:15 <oerjan> fancy
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11:25:59 <int-e> shachaf: I actually have three lectures of the guy (at Stanford a few years ago) downloaded, but never got around to watching them... probably never will. Skimming a paper is more realistic for me.
11:26:33 <int-e> (since 2013, wow)
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11:28:18 <shachaf> int-e: Some of it is written up on the website now.
11:28:33 <shachaf> Unfortunately a lot is still in video form. Video isn't a great way to transmit information.
11:28:52 <shachaf> Those lectures are better watched at 2x speed.
11:29:34 <shachaf> You can read e.g. https://millcomputing.com/topic/introduction-to-the-mill-cpu-programming-model-2/
11:29:57 <shachaf> Those diagrams are awful on a dark background.
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11:33:57 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Funding]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53555&oldid=53553 * Oerjan * (+47) Ho humsigned
11:37:12 <fizzie> Heh, thanks. I'm not very MediaWiki-talk-oriented.
11:40:41 <oerjan> <ais523> shachaf: "this" = what? the queens problem? <-- . o O ( maybe we should just forbid shachaf from using that word )
11:41:04 <int-e> oerjan: He won't like that.
11:41:48 * oerjan sees what int-e did there.
11:43:04 <oerjan> `? this
11:43:05 <HackEgo> this is a word
11:43:16 <int-e> shachaf: anyway, large parts of this remind me of HP's and intel's EPIC approach.
11:43:36 <oerjan> `learn This is something shachaf likes to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though.
11:43:39 <HackEgo> Learned 'thi': This is something shachaf likes to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though.
11:43:39 <int-e> (Not to say EPIC failure. Well I guess I had to say it.)
11:43:43 <oerjan> hm
11:43:56 <shachaf> oerjan: Come on, that this wasn't a reference to this.
11:44:06 <shachaf> Also I think zzo38 should get credit.
11:44:19 <int-e> Yeah I think zzo38 started this.
11:44:25 <oerjan> shachaf: he may have started it, but you made it jump the shark hth
11:44:47 <oerjan> `revert
11:44:48 <HackEgo> Done.
11:44:49 <shachaf> shachaf@iodine:~/logs/esoteric/tunes-13-$ grep 'Do you like this' 17.* | awk '{print $2}' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn
11:45:04 <int-e> (And I may have been a bit of a catalyst simply by complaining about this.)
11:45:18 <shachaf> 77 <zzo38> \ 19 <shachaf> \ 2 <HackEgo> \ 1 <lambdabot> \ 1 <Cale>
11:45:24 <int-e> Anyway, enough of this. (Argh.)
11:45:28 <shachaf> Just so we're clear about this.
11:45:43 <oerjan> `learn This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though.
11:45:44 <HackEgo> Learned 'thi': This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though.
11:45:45 <shachaf> int-e: Actually, the catalyst was a former coworker of mine who knew zzo38 through another medium.
11:45:50 <oerjan> oops
11:45:58 <oerjan> `revert
11:45:59 <HackEgo> Done.
11:46:00 <shachaf> itym `oops
11:46:04 <shachaf> `cat bin/oops
11:46:05 <HackEgo> cat: bin/oops: No such file or directory
11:46:08 <shachaf> `cat bin/whoops
11:46:08 <HackEgo> OLD="wisdom/$1"; [ -z "$1" ] && OLD="$(lastfiles)"; NEW="${OLD}s"; if [ -f "$NEW" ]; then echo "«${NEW}» already exists"; exit 1; fi; mv "$OLD" "$NEW" && echo "«${OLD}» -> «${NEW}»"
11:46:10 <int-e> It's damn hard to stop. (One more: shachaf is the one who made this painful.)
11:46:11 <int-e> :P
11:46:17 <oerjan> `le/rn this//This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though.
11:46:19 <HackEgo> Relearned 'this': This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though.
11:46:28 <shachaf> `doag bin/whoops
11:46:30 <oerjan> now it's nice and inclusive.
11:46:34 <HackEgo> 9714:2016-11-17 <oerjän> whoop ../bin/whoop \ 9713:2016-11-17 <shachäf> ` mv bin/whoop{s,} \ 9710:2016-11-17 <oerjän> ` mv bin/whoops{s,} \ 9709:2016-11-17 <oerjän> whoops \ 9708:2016-11-17 <oerjän> mkx bin/whoops//OLD="wisdom/$1"; [ -z "$1" ] && OLD="$(lastfiles)"; NEW="${OLD}s"; if [ -f "$NEW" ]; then echo "\xc2\xab${NEW}\xc2\xbb alread
11:46:57 <shachaf> oerjan: You gotta learn to use your ownventions
11:47:04 <oerjan> shachaf: i know i made it, but now i was suddenly queasy about keeping the history on the right file
11:50:09 <int-e> shachaf: So... there are some questions that Mill has to answer; foremost, perhaps, how well utilised the VLIW words will be. There's also the issue with memory bounded stuff (where, actually, it's beneficial to have out of order execution; you may have one load from cache and one from memory without knowing which one will be which in advance)... and there's utilisation of compute units;...
11:50:15 <int-e> ...hyperthreading is done for a reason. So, hmm. It's interesting to watch but too early to buy into, I think.
11:51:02 <int-e> (The first point is about code size and correspondingly, required memory bandwidth for code.)
11:51:21 <shachaf> It's certainly too early to buy into. But they have a lot of creative ideas.
11:51:28 <shachaf> They've responded to some of your points.
11:52:22 <shachaf> E.g. They say that ~88% of the benefit of an OOO chip can be achieved with static scheduling, I think/
11:52:25 <shachaf> https://piazza-resources.s3.amazonaws.com/hf1cdb546x444z/hg1su47nz4g5po/Discerning.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIEDNRLJ4AZKBW6HA&Expires=1512831104&Signature=GMYlhuBq1ACt%2BYsVJuTi1nhGtg0%3D
11:53:22 <shachaf> They have all sorts of tricks for getting high instruction parallelism. Hard to say how well it'll really work in practice this far in advance, of course, but they have a working LLVM backend and they say it generates code that uses it well.
11:54:15 <shachaf> They also say that they don't think hyperthreading will give that much benefit over just adding more cores for most general-purpose code.
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12:00:20 <esowiki> [[Javagrid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53556&oldid=53093 * Stefan-hering * (+19)
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12:08:42 <int-e> shachaf: The way I see it, hyperthreading pays for a lot of the OOO execution complexity, by using the same instruction scheduling engine for two threads. I'll admit that it's totally unclear whether two simpler cores are better or worse.
12:14:40 <shachaf> I'm certainly not a CPU designer.
12:14:52 <shachaf> They discussed it a bit in the most recent talk on threading.
12:15:32 <int-e> neither am I (obviously?)
12:16:22 <int-e> Heck I have not even used an FPGA, or even something like Verilog in a simulator.
12:16:33 <shachaf> Their claim is that the machinery that has to be duplicated to implement SMT is almost as expensive as another core, that you don't really get that much benefit for typical workloads, especially when you get increased instruction-level parallelism with their other tricks.
12:17:01 <shachaf> And that there's a lot of ILP that an OOO CPU can't see because it's too far ahead.
12:17:16 <shachaf> Of course we heard some of these same claims with the Itanium.
12:17:34 <shachaf> But they give various reasons they think they'll be able to do better.
12:19:34 <int-e> Hmm maybe I should get myself a copy of the Hennessy Patterson book for christmas?
12:20:26 <int-e> Well, probably not. No time for that, really.
12:23:16 <int-e> Hmm, wow... Blu-ray cheaper than DVD, I don't think I've seen that happen before. (There's a solution to the puzzle: the Blu-ray version has been available for almost a year now.)
12:23:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Wiki dumps]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53557&oldid=39282 * Fizzie * (+49) Update dump schedule, make numbers bigger.
12:26:19 <fizzie> If there's anyone regularly downloading the XML dump daily, please switch to a weekly schedule, because it's now generated weekly.
12:27:35 <fizzie> (At least if you're not using zsync.)
12:27:39 <shachaf> int-e: DVD is a collector's item
12:29:06 <shachaf> fizzie: Because of bandwidth constraints?
12:32:48 <fizzie> shachaf: Let's say it felt like the right tradeoff to make, judging from edit frequency. I don't think daily would be an issue, but there are many days with no edits (though recently's been pretty active).
12:35:47 <shachaf> I mean, are you asking pople not to do it because of bandwidth constraints?
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12:37:18 <shachaf> How much should I pay esolangs.org for daily dump download dispensation?
12:37:42 <fizzie> More out of a general sense of appropriateness. It doesn't seem to make sense to download it more frequently than it's generated.
12:38:49 <fizzie> If y'all (that's the word, right?) do prefer to have it generated daily, we can do daily.
12:40:20 <fizzie> A single person downloading the non-zsync dump every day would mean about +2 GiB/month; we're around ~100 GiB/month as it is, with a nominal limit of 1 TiB/month.
12:46:53 <fizzie> I don't have metrics on how much zsync saves. :/
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13:12:14 <int-e> Hmm. The xml dump is a single file, so I guess the main benefit is that zsync is cheap when there's no new dump.
13:15:11 <int-e> > 440964486 / 215318
13:15:13 <lambdabot> 2047.968520978274
13:20:11 <fizzie> int-e: I thought zsync's supposed to be clever about downloading only changed parts within files?
13:20:49 <fizzie> AIUI, it writes the rsync-style per-block checksums to the metadata file it downloads, and then does HTTP range requests to get only the necessary bytes.
13:20:50 <int-e> So apparently the .zsync file contains a header and 11 bytes (hmm, 3 bytes weak and 8 bytes strong hash?) per 2048 byte chunk of the /uncompressed/ esolang.xml file.
13:23:06 <int-e> Hmm. Let me read a bit more.
13:23:23 <fizzie> http://zsync.moria.org.uk/paper/ is what I was basing that on.
13:24:04 <fizzie> (We're using "zsyncmake -z" on the original uncompressed dump.)
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13:28:16 <int-e> Yeah it sounds like it should do a decent job. (Rolling hashes, on uncompressed data, plus offset information for peaking into the right locations of the .gz file)
13:30:04 <int-e> wow. "But it is possible to decompress the file and then recompress it with a variety of options, until a set of options is found that produces a file identical to the original."
13:33:45 <int-e> Okay... I'd hope to see savings in the 20x to 30x range (30 is an upper bound coming from the size of the esolang.xml.zsync file itself), and just a couple of hundred bytes download if the contents has not been changed at all.
13:34:14 <int-e> Assuming that the wiki dump doesn't randomly shuffle pages.
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14:02:17 <fizzie> From what I've seen, it's in article ID order.
14:02:28 <fizzie> ...I think.
14:03:05 <fizzie> I might be confusing that with the file cache rebuild script, they both print similar outputs.
14:04:24 <fizzie> zcat esolang.xml.gz | grep '^ <id>' looks pretty monotonic, so I guess that's right.
14:06:11 <int-e> For people who really want full dumps, offering a .xz might help; that shrinks the 66MB (gzip) to 20MB (xz).
14:07:50 <int-e> (Well, 21MB. gzip -9 is 63MB, bzip2 -9 results in 33MB)
14:08:47 <int-e> (gzip -9 may interfere with the zsync, of course)
14:09:08 <ais523> the difference in compression ratio there is kind-of astonishing
14:09:59 <ais523> maybe we could steal an algorithm from the Human Knowledge Compression Contest? that specifically uses MediaWiki dumps as the test case for compression
14:10:35 <int-e> well there's no real point in using compression software that isn't commonly available, I think.
14:13:01 <int-e> http://sprunge.us/GOVA ... that's the things I could think of
14:14:33 <fizzie> int-e: Do you want to check what the --rsync flag does to the gzip lines?
14:14:36 <fizzie> While you're at it...
14:16:28 <int-e> gzip -9 --rsync results in 64528216 (instead of 62915220)
14:17:53 <int-e> > 64528216 / 62915220
14:17:56 <lambdabot> 1.025637612011847
14:18:31 <int-e> "This increase size by less than 1 percent most cases." ... well close enough I guess
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14:21:19 <ais523> int-e: looks like the second-place entry is GPL
14:24:28 -!- whateverhewants has changed nick to sdhand.
14:27:28 * int-e twiddles his thumbs
14:29:04 <int-e> well, some paq variant can squeeze out a bit more indeed. http://sprunge.us/bjUW
14:29:57 <int-e> but I expect that most linux systems at least have xz these days; I had not heard of lrz before.
14:31:07 <fizzie> How about brotli? ;) (I don't think it's going to set any records.)
14:32:15 <int-e> uh I'll pass
14:32:50 <int-e> actually let me check if I have a package
14:34:10 <int-e> I wonder how long it'll take though
14:37:23 <int-e> uh, wow.
14:37:43 <int-e> > gzip -d < esolang.xml.gz | brotli | wc -c ==> 20748329
14:37:46 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:26: error: parse error on input ‘|’
14:37:53 <int-e> in about 3 minutes
14:40:19 * int-e should've timed all those commands
14:56:37 <fizzie> That's a nice bump over gzip. I wonder if there's some non-inlined resources I could brotli precompress, given that a bunch of browsers do support it.
14:59:51 <int-e> http://sprunge.us/KJOL
15:00:16 <int-e> and that's enough playing around with compressors
15:00:54 <int-e> (the last two entries say something about the (lack of) worth of hyperthreading for BWT based compression.
15:07:25 <Cale> shachaf: Do you like "Do you like this?"?
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16:08:50 -!- fizzie has set topic: Happy 15th birthday, #esoteric! | Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
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16:45:27 <int-e> `unidecode 🌽
16:45:29 <HackEgo> ​[U+1F33D EAR OF MAIZE]
16:46:57 <variable> ooooh, useful bot
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17:24:39 <int-e> so tempted to add https://xkcd.com/1926/ to the topic
17:25:49 <ais523> it's not insane enough
17:26:02 <ais523> Haskell isn't particularly inappropriate for HTML parsing
17:26:05 <variable> ais523: do it
17:26:13 <variable> erm int-e
17:26:15 <ais523> although it's hard to see why the spreadsheet formula would help
17:26:15 <int-e> (Perhaps not, but it reminds me of the time I wrote a Perl program that generated a Java program that generated a Java program.)
17:26:44 <ais523> NetHack 4's build process involves a Perl program that builds a C program then runs it to generate another C program
17:26:46 <variable> int-e: likely not new to you, but just in case https://github.com/mame/quine-relay
17:26:54 <ais523> but that is one of the /least/ insane parts of it :-D
17:27:09 <ais523> variable: quine relays are fairly boring IMO because it's basically just a whole load of nested print statements
17:27:21 <int-e> variable: I've definitely seen some version of that idea.
17:27:22 <ais523> how many languages does it have, incidentally?
17:27:35 <variable> ais523: 128
17:28:00 <ais523> oh, that's less than I was expecting
17:28:38 <ais523> here, have a program that prints a different integer in each of 159 different languages: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/149451
17:29:03 <ais523> (the most recently added was Literate Agda)
17:29:20 <int-e> It's slightly cheating because you can often bridge several programming languages in one step at little cost, just given a function that turns a string into a program that prints it.
17:29:47 <ais523> int-e: I assumed it did that for every language
17:29:49 <int-e> Or perhaps not cheating, but this demystifies this whole thing quite a bit.
17:29:54 <ais523> and then just used one language to revert the whole mess at the end
17:30:03 <int-e> ais523: well you actually have to diagonalize from time to time.
17:30:14 <ais523> I was thinking you'd only diagonalize once
17:30:18 <int-e> Hmm.
17:30:35 <int-e> I don't know, but I imagine it would grow too big to actually be executed that way in some steps.
17:31:17 <ais523> I was assuming that that would actually be smaller
17:32:07 <int-e> there's whitespace, intercal, and brainfuck in the loop, all of which explode for string constants, I think.
17:32:20 <int-e> anyway
17:32:45 <int-e> I've never looked closely so you may well be right
17:33:02 <ais523> I believe all three are linear
17:33:08 <ais523> just more than 1 byte per byte
17:33:18 <int-e> true.
17:33:43 <ais523> come to think of it, I can't think of an esolang offhand in which encoding strings is O(n²)
17:33:46 <ais523> which is surprising
17:34:05 <ais523> (that is, in terms of source code length; there are likely several which are O(n²) at printing them)
17:34:14 <int-e> I like how the readme starts with $ ulimit -s unlimited
17:35:37 <ais523> that makes me shudder a bit, I naturally want to write it as -Ss, but then I realised the two are equivalent in this case
17:36:07 <int-e> . o O ( getting a new shell is cheap )
17:36:23 <ais523> (without -S the ulimit is unincreasable within that shell session, which is useful to stop potentially rogue programs undoing it but isn't what you want to catch honest mistakes; however, if you're setting it to unlimited, that hardly matters…)
17:37:57 <zzo38> Why does the build process use a Perl program and then it builts a C program and then another C program? It seem like strange to me
17:40:01 <ais523> zzo38: the Perl program automates the entire build; the first C program parses the source of the second C program and generates things like constants based on string literals
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18:01:25 <zzo38> Would thre be a possibility compiling NetHack into RogueVM? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/roguevm I have written a section at the end with some considerations about NetHack
18:03:30 <zzo38> Specifically, hangup saves won't be a problem in RogueVM.
18:04:38 <ais523> zzo38: can it handle function pointers? NetHack needs those
18:05:32 <ais523> also the data storage model is quite different from NetHack's, you could probably compile into it but you'd be missing most of the features
18:05:47 <ais523> (and most versions of NetHack use the "struct hack"; I think it might have been removed from 3.6 though)
18:06:02 <zzo38> Yes; any function pointer is a number indexing into the function table, so you can use those numbers as function pointers.
18:06:34 <ais523> but things like "input map coordinates" aren't really useful for NetHack because NetHack does things /during/ the coordinate input process
18:06:50 <ais523> such as jumping to monsters on keypress, hover-farlook, and the like
18:07:03 <zzo38> ais523: The document is not yet complete; I did intend to add support for those kind of things too
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18:07:46 <zzo38> About the data storage model though, it could be "hidden behind" the implementations of malloc() and such, if needed
18:09:19 <zzo38> Another thing I should add is support for use of multiple character sets (the user configuration or something else determines what is used)
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18:15:28 <zzo38> As you can see some of the sections say (TODO) on it; maybe you have some suggestions relating to them.
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18:26:04 <int-e> "AlphaZero learns Chess and surpasses StockFish" -- while burning about 2MW of electricity in TPUs.
18:26:27 <int-e> err, I cut the quote short, it said "in 4 hours"
18:26:55 <quintopia> would it still win if its power were cut down?
18:28:02 <int-e> Note, that is the power spent while training. The power for playing is probably a fairly normal 1-2kW.
18:28:06 <quintopia> i mean, we must expect a correlation between power usage and chess skill. humans are much better than birds at chess after all
18:28:32 <int-e> ("normal" for a high end PC/server)
18:29:05 <quintopia> oh. well yeah. power/time tradeoffs
18:30:19 <int-e> Rumors are that they didn't give Stockfish any opening book or table bases. Oh and 1GB of hashtables are mentioned in the whitepaper which isn't so much either.
18:31:48 <quintopia> okay that seems unfair. tablebases are an important part of stockfish's strength. alphazero doesn't and shouldn't need them.
18:32:32 <quintopia> however, even without them, it held alphazero to a draw in a large majority of games
18:32:45 <int-e> Well, chess is a draw :P
18:33:39 <quintopia> where does randomness enter those algorithms? they are obviously not deterministic
18:33:53 <ais523> wouldn't alphazero necessarily be stronger if given tablebases?
18:34:10 <ais523> like, there's no need for an approximate evaluation function if you have a mathematically correct one
18:34:16 <int-e> They have some MCTS on top of the neural network; the policy part of the network is used to determine probabilities of where to explore next.
18:34:37 <quintopia> it learned enough to produce the same results as the tablebases i think
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18:35:07 <int-e> Not sure it would necessarily be stronger, against a non-perfect opponent.
18:35:08 <ais523> and the reason they use MCTS not alpha-beta is because the neural network's evaluations are somewhat unstable (= more sensitive than they should be to small changes in the input) and MCTS is better at coping with the instability
18:35:47 <ais523> int-e: so your idea is that alphazero evaluation is better than tablebases at determining which lines an opponent is likely to misplay?
18:35:54 <int-e> (with tablebases it's hard to go for tricking the opponent)
18:36:02 <quintopia> what does milwaukee county transit system have to do with it?
18:36:16 <int-e> ais523: I don't know.
18:36:18 <ais523> monte-carlo tree search
18:36:28 <int-e> ais523: But this is a possible way that adding tablebases could make a program weaker.
18:36:32 <ais523> right
18:38:26 <int-e> It may also add odd discontinuities in an evaluation function, if it's used in the tree search (starting from a non-table-base position).
18:39:38 <int-e> One conservative idea that should definitely work is to take the MCTS move and override it if it worsens the evaluation according to tablebases.
18:40:10 <ais523> yes, I think that definitely works
18:40:11 <int-e> Where "work" means it should not weaken the engine.
18:40:33 <int-e> (Unless playing against execptionally bad opposition :P)
18:40:47 <ais523> or along similar lines, the only allowable moves should be those that are tablebase-optimal but you use the normal algorithm to choose between them
18:44:10 <quintopia> i wonder if theres a way to use the first few moves or games to determine the opponents strengtha
18:44:45 <quintopia> and if found to be much lower, go for slightly suboptimal moves that are likely to be badly mise aluated
18:45:37 <int-e> well if you recognize bad moves then you can probably exploit them anyway :P
18:46:03 <int-e> (I cannot really answer the question.)
18:46:13 <zzo38> I think I have managed to make an alternative way to make a Minsky machine with Crement
18:46:36 <int-e> (Except maybe that opening books cover the first few moves so you shouldn't hope to learn much about the opponent's strength from those.)
18:46:39 <ais523> quintopia: well, if you're playing against an opponent who has a tablebase, you can assume that it's not going to play tablebase-suboptimal moves
18:46:48 <ais523> and if you're up at stockfish's or alphazero's level, all viable opponents will have one
18:50:21 <int-e> 171
18:50:45 <int-e> oops.
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18:56:37 <quintopia> int-e: but maybe after a few games you can recognize a weaker player who relies heavily on books and tablebases, and do a better job of steering them into the weeds where those will be less useful
19:03:11 <int-e> quintopia: you can get the full game theory... in the next iteration, players can emulate weak players and then strike when the other player tries to exploit those weaknesses ;)
19:03:27 <int-e> (well, not full game theory, just the two player zero sum part, I guess)
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20:44:56 <moony> Anyone here used https://www.ponylang.org/ ?
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22:12:16 <quintopia> int-e: cool idea. hard to exploit. what if you have to lose two games to convince your opponent to help you win one?
22:12:44 <quintopia> soon it becomes a matter of exploiting the number of games in the match
22:13:49 <quintopia> at which point you hide the number of games to be played from the competitors. (of course, i dont think they give them that info to begin with)
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23:45:38 <fizzie> Let's try to flip a thing.
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2017-12-10
00:01:40 <quintopia> b
00:01:46 <quintopia> helloily!
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00:13:49 <boily> q
00:13:52 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIA!
00:14:07 <boily> fizziello. flip flap flop flup flep ♪
00:14:22 <boily> @metar CYQB
00:14:22 <lambdabot> CYQB 100000Z 01005KT 15SM FEW070 OVC180 M03/M07 A2984 RMK AC1CI8 AC TR SLP112
00:17:48 <boily> fungot: flep?
00:17:48 <fungot> boily: ignoring a validating structural editor, what other options are there :-)_ cube
00:18:09 <boily> fungot: FOUR DAYS ROTATIONS IN THE VALIDATING STRUCTURAL EDITOR.
00:18:09 <fungot> boily: unless it uses recursion a lot of
00:18:26 <boily> fungot: of course it recurses. how else can you achieve four days in one?
00:18:26 <fungot> boily: " this is imperative code" or " ooo" in the memory of the routine, to get to bed
00:36:02 <quintopia> there is snow here finally
00:36:41 <quintopia> more time cunes plz
00:36:46 <quintopia> cubes
00:36:54 <quintopia> sorry im drunkish
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01:57:14 <zzo38> What is the best way to clean the computer display? I got a new one today, which works, but, it is dirty.
01:58:16 <quintopia> try using a glasses wiper cloth
01:58:40 <zzo38> I think I have one of those somewhere
01:58:41 <quintopia> if that doesn't work, wet a cloth with windex and wipe it and then wipe it dry
01:58:58 <zzo38> (Unfortunately, I forgot where I put it)
02:04:22 <zzo38> I made this list of file formats that my Farbfeld Utilities programs supports so far http://fileformats.archiveteam.org/wiki/Farbfeld_Utilities (some of the formats are obscure) Anyone who is wanting to write any new public domain C program to read/write other picture file formats, to please to do so. Someone also can make a logo for this Farbfeld Utilities collection if they want to do so, please.
02:11:16 <zzo38> There is also a stuck pixel in my computer.
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02:17:37 <quintopia> that must be annoying
02:22:26 <zzo38> How to fix it?
02:22:51 <quintopia> you can't. i've never heard of a fix for that.
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03:02:45 <quintopia> the only downside of being supported by Bytemark is that they don't have a Hexham data centre. It would be appropriate :P
03:40:34 <pikhq> zzo38: TIL there's an iPhone-only PNG variant.
03:40:40 <pikhq> How goofy.
03:42:17 <pikhq> Some of those changes at least make some sense, but others are just weird.
03:44:36 <shachaf> Do you like chicken of the woods?
03:46:51 <quintopia> yes. that's just "chicken" right?
03:49:10 <pikhq> No, it's a fungus.
03:49:22 <quintopia> never heard of it
03:58:43 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, and I don't know why, but, there is.
03:59:08 <zzo38> At least, reading such format is not so difficult to implement using existing PNG reader library, by adding a few extra codes.
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04:00:59 <zzo38> How many of the formats listed there have you heard of (or used) before?
04:04:27 <pikhq> I'd used 9, and heard of more.
04:04:48 <zzo38> Which ones?
04:05:21 <pikhq> BMP, GIF, JPEG, MacPaint, PBM, PNM, PNG, XBM, XPM.
04:05:54 <zzo38> OK
04:06:26 <zzo38> Well, those are some of the more common ones, anyways, I suppose.
04:07:04 <pikhq> Yeah, those are basically the ones that are common in consumer or developer use, plus one that would be used by anyone that'd played around on old Macs.
04:09:29 <zzo38> Although most programs that support XPM seem to not support XPM2 format.
04:10:07 <pikhq> Which is odd, as that one seems easier to support.
04:10:18 <pikhq> Not *massively*, but easier.
04:10:54 <zzo38> Yes, it does seem a bit odd, to me, too
04:11:08 <shachaf> pikhq: Do you like it?
04:11:10 <pikhq> And trivial to support if you support XPM3.
04:11:16 <shachaf> `? it
04:11:17 <HackEgo> It would have been certainly so, but `8ball refused to coöperate.
04:11:19 <shachaf> I found it at Berkeley Bowl today.
04:11:24 <pikhq> shachaf: I don't think I've had chicken of the woods, actually.
04:11:51 <pikhq> Seems like it'd be tasty though.
04:12:03 <shachaf> It's certainly quite unusual for a mushroom.
04:12:16 <shachaf> `learn It is this.
04:14:16 <shachaf> "It is this, it is this that oppresses my soul, / When I think of my uncle's last words: / And my heart is like nothing so much as a bowl / Brimming over with quivering curds!
04:14:23 <shachaf> "It is this, it is this--" "We have had that before!" / The Bellman indignantly said. / And the Baker replied "Let me say it once more. / It is this, it is this that I dread!
04:15:32 <zzo38> Anyways, my own software does support all three XPM formats (both for reading and for writing), including monochrome, grey scale, colour overriding, and stippling (which isn't actually a feature of the file format (so any program that can read XPM will still read these files), but rather is a way to make the monochrome version of a picture using non-solid "colours").
04:18:57 <zzo38> Z-machine XZIP Picture Library format might be one of the most obscure file formats I have listed in there, because as far as I can tell, there is no other software that can read/write such format, and I have found only one file of that format (which was probably written using software that no longer exists).
04:29:09 <pikhq> Do you even know the *name* of the program that was supposed to implement it?
04:30:28 <pikhq> Well. That's a Z-machine thing. It might've been Infocom-internal, actually?
04:31:08 <zzo38> pikhq: No, I do not know the name of the program, either. Although yes, I do believe it probably was Infocom-internal program that was used to write that file.
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04:35:58 <zzo38> I do have some of Infocom's source codes, but none that implement that file format.
04:39:29 <zzo38> I think I have figured out a much shorter way to make Minsky machine with Crement, although I am unsure if it is correct. Each register needs two instructions, and then increment becomes five instructions and decrement becomes seven instructions. I have implemented each register as: -D 0 initial_value +J 0 1
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10:53:24 <int-e> zzo38: I expected 9 instructions for decrement (two reads, one for the conditional jump, and one for the actual decrement)
11:52:16 <fizzie> @metar EGLL
11:52:16 <lambdabot> EGLL 101120Z 06007KT 4600 -RA SCT004 BKN010 BKN015 01/00 Q0972 TEMPO 1000 SN BKN003
11:53:06 <fizzie> There's SNOW on the roofs of some cars parked outside! (It's exceptional.)
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14:08:32 <ais523> @messages?
14:08:32 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
14:17:56 <zseri> @messages
14:17:56 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
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17:59:29 <zzo38> int-e: I don't know if what I did is correct or not though
18:00:38 <zzo38> (Because, it is untested, and I might not have look at it carefully enough)
18:01:59 <zzo38> But, this is what I have: For increment, it is: +A R @+2 +A R+1 @+1 +J R 1 +D @+1 0 +D R 0 For decrement, it is: +A R @+2 +A R+1 @+1 +J R 1 -J next_if_zero 0 +A R R-1 +A R+1 @+1 +J R 1
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18:26:32 <oerjan> ooh birthday
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19:24:41 <quintopia> fizzie: you are in london?
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20:37:55 <esowiki> [[S.I.L.O.S]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53558&oldid=49801 * Wheatwizard * (+0) Fixed link formatting
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21:03:26 <Soni> is there some sort of bfzip or something that produces higher compression rates than gzip and implements brainfuck (or something) under the hood?
21:09:05 <choco_chuck> the rar format has a VM in it: https://github.com/taviso/rarvmtools
21:09:10 <choco_chuck> if that is something like what you mean
21:14:13 <zzo38> ZPAQ also can include instructions
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21:43:34 <esowiki> [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53559&oldid=53558 * Quintopia * (-170) This article needs some serious reformatting but here's a start
21:45:50 <fizzie> quintopia: Yes.
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21:48:53 <quintopia> what caused all that snow in the normally-snow-free parts of the northeast atlantic?
21:49:11 <quintopia> is it related to the unusual snow we had here last weekend?
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22:16:41 <fizzie> I don't know how weather works, really. There was a storm they were talking about earlier, but I'm not sure if that's related.
22:19:20 <oerjan> . o O ( "cold" )
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02:33:46 <fizzie> (Sorry for the jumping around, I'm fiddling with it.)
02:50:13 <doesthiswork> when you do the hokie pokie, that's what its all about
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04:49:41 <zzo38> Short implementation of "Unnecessary" esolang in JavaScript: require("fs").stat(process.argv[2],x=>x||y)
04:50:38 <zzo38> Actually, you can do better: require("fs").stat(process.argv[2],x=>x._)
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11:02:28 <b_jonas> `wisdom
11:02:30 <HackEgo> the universe//The universe was invented by Taneb as an opposing force to oerjan. Escardó proved that it was indiscreet.
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11:25:32 <mroman> somebody dissed Delphi just before I left.
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16:12:25 <ais523> @messages?
16:12:25 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
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17:33:44 <quintopia> @tell ais523 here's a message so you don't keep coming up empty-handed
17:33:44 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
17:34:17 <ais523> it's OK for there not to be messages
17:34:28 <b_jonas> Interesting: http://plato.asu.edu/sub/pns.html list of numeric optimization software
17:34:29 <ais523> just I typically don't speak in here immediately upon connecting
17:34:43 <ais523> and if someone does send me a message it seems impolite to not let lambdabot know I want to read it
17:35:03 <ais523> also lambdabot sends the reminders by PM if you don't ask explicitly in-channel, which is easy to miss
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18:13:11 <zseri> What about a esoteric programming language, which is based on a embedded database (like table files or sqlite), reads a start node from a start table and then jump through table entries while processing
18:14:27 <ais523> sqlite is basically an esolang in its own right
18:17:02 <b_jonas> and it reads triggers from the database itself
18:17:22 <b_jonas> from the special root table I think
18:18:55 <b_jonas> yep, reads them from the special sqlite_master table
18:22:47 <zzo38> Yes, that is what SQLite does
18:25:11 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DenseComet * New user account
18:27:25 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53560&oldid=53536 * DenseComet * (+197) Added myself
18:29:06 <zzo38> There are some thing SQLite doesn't have (such as some more mathematical and statistical functions, although they can easily be added on by extensions, so that is OK), but the built-in stuff is good enough to make a Mandelbrot set and to solve a Sudoku puzzle
18:36:07 <b_jonas> wtf
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18:47:04 <zzo38> I did make a SQLite extension for using PCRE, and due to that, have reported a bug with the auxdata functions (when used in multiple triggers at once), which they have since corrected.
18:53:32 <zseri> ok
18:58:43 <zseri> It would be nice to have language where every statement follows the same concept (with minimal syntax). I would imagine a STATEMENT layout like: A = B | C | (D | E); and so on; but in a way that it can express functions, I/O, arithmetic ...
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19:00:23 <zseri> or every statement like: THING = BASE | MODIFIER || PARTA | PARTB ...
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21:05:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Unnecessary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53561&oldid=26444 * Zzo38 * (+335) Implementation in JavaScript (which is a bit strange)
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21:06:49 <zzo38> The description for Unnecessary says: "If the file doesn't exist, run NOP and end the program execution successfully. If the file exists, report an error and terminate immediately." It does not say what kind of error message, so it seem the implementation I made in JavaScript does that.
21:10:42 <zzo38> Do you like this?
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21:21:03 <wob_jonas> Yay! My new keyboard arrived to the post office, I'll be able to pick it up tomorrow morning as I go to work.
21:21:08 <wob_jonas> Clicky clicky!
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21:41:05 <oerjan> . o O ( why are you buying clickbait )
21:41:29 <int-e> for fishing clicks
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23:11:00 <oerjan> bubbly bubbly bitcoins
23:19:59 <boily> bubblerjan.
23:22:51 <shachaf> `? bitcoin
23:22:52 <HackEgo> bitcoins are coins that have been drilled through with a bit, and can be strung together in long chains. This practice dates to ancient China, and the Chinese remain experts in bitcoin manufacturing. A chain can support up to 21 million coins before breaking.
23:23:20 <shachaf> oerjan: do you read Matt Levine twh
23:24:52 <boily> helloochaf. pooch pooch pooch pooch pooch pooch pooch.
23:25:34 <shachaf> boily: I wanted to watch YSAE but apparently they don't allow new subscriptions #scow
23:28:08 <boily> what's an YSAE twh
23:28:24 <wob_jonas> `? ysae
23:28:25 <HackEgo> ysae? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:29:09 <shachaf> boily: "You Suck At Everything" hth
23:29:15 <boily> oh.
23:29:18 <boily> tdh.
23:30:59 <int-e> NYSLAE?
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23:34:28 <int-e> (before anyone asks, the new words are "now" and "less")
23:37:57 <fizzie> oerjan: It's very experimental, but it's up (for now): https://esolangs.org/logs/
23:38:04 <fizzie> (Lots to tweak still.)
23:42:13 <fizzie> (For example, seems that I forgot to have code for formatting NICK commands.)
23:45:48 <boily> test test test test test test 僕のホバークラフトは鰻でいっぱいです
23:46:23 <boily> <boily> test test test test test 12test
23:46:55 <boily>
23:47:08 <fizzie> Also the formatting sanitization needs work.
23:47:32 <boily> IT DROPPED THE MULTIOCULAR O. PLEASE DO THE NEEDFUL.
23:47:57 <boily> meanwhile, time to brave the elements and go inhale a relaxing poutine...
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23:48:25 <fizzie> Hm, that's odd. It's supposed to just filter out everything < 32, and serve whatever bytes the logs contain (with charset=utf-8 headers).
23:50:02 <fizzie> Oh, signed chars.
23:50:25 <fizzie> Well, the ꙮ should be back, at least.
23:51:21 <wob_jonas> Méh-raj duruzsol <b>szellős fák alól,</b> <br>fürjek dala száll tó partján. Let's see how it deals with HTML tags.
23:51:50 <wob_jonas> escapes them, it seems
23:52:07 <fizzie> Yes, just the <&> set.
23:52:26 <zzo38> fizzie: Will you add raw format too?
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23:53:17 <fizzie> zzo38: If you like. Should it be the same raw format as the codu.org logs? (The "native" raw format is protos.)
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23:53:58 <zzo38> fizzie: What is "protos"?
23:54:22 <fizzie> Protocol Buffers, https://developers.google.com/protocol-buffers/
23:54:55 <zzo38> Same format as codu.org logs would work.
23:55:29 <shachaf> fizzie: Why not expose protos? twh
23:55:36 <wob_jonas> Let's see how it handles multiple adjacent spaces.
23:55:56 <fizzie> wob_jonas: I thought I styled that right, but apparently not.
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23:56:12 <fizzie> The codu.org format sounds easy enough. The old logs will have a little bit less information, though, because I backfilled them from my own logs, which don't have all the information. :/
23:56:17 <wob_jonas> zzo38: the third playable race besides teran and zerg
23:56:32 <wob_jonas> is psionic, and its units are expensive
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23:58:28 <zzo38> I think that format like codu.org logs would be best, or, if you do not have sub-second precision, alternatively my own "SIRCL" format, where each IRC command is prefixed by a decimal UNIX timestamp and a tab.
23:59:34 <zzo38> fizzie: What timing precision does your logs have?
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23:59:59 <wob_jonas> And they have no mouth. Evolved to be breatharian or something.
2017-12-12
00:00:21 <shachaf> `5 w
00:00:27 <HackEgo> 1/2:tanstaaha//tanstaaha, so please stop using them. That would help. \ cat introduction//cat introduction is the process of piping one or more extra `cat` commands into your pipeline; occasionally this is even actually useful. \ nlhp//nlhp is a hockey programme. \ emacs//emacs is the weird brother of nano. \ extreme irony//Extreme irony
00:00:29 <shachaf> `n
00:00:30 <zzo38> wob_jonas: O, is that StarCraft? I think I have heard of that (Sirlin mentioned it a few times).
00:00:30 <HackEgo> 2/2:is what happens when you get a Darwin award for extreme ironing.
00:00:38 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yes
00:01:18 <shachaf> `? cat elimination
00:01:19 <HackEgo> cat elimination is the process of replacing a one-argument `cat` command with the shell operator <
00:01:23 <shachaf> `cat bin/nlhp
00:01:25 <HackEgo> cat: bin/nlhp: No such file or directory
00:01:57 <fizzie> The ones I generated from my own logs have one second precision, the ones the bot's recording now use microseconds.
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00:03:08 <zzo38> fizzie: O, OK. Either SIRCL or codu.org format should be acceptable; if using codu.org format then the ones that don't have microseconds you could put zero perhaps, maybe
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00:17:45 <fizzie> Re spaces, that was just a CSS mistake, turns out the property is "white-space" and not "whitespace".
00:18:21 <wob_jonas> fizzie: let me see then
00:18:52 <wob_jonas> fizzie: by the way, can you link to the other two log sites please?
00:19:14 <fizzie> From where, the index page?
00:19:22 <wob_jonas> probably
00:19:30 <fizzie> Sure, I'll add a TODO.
00:20:00 <wob_jonas> Yeah, the spaces look better now. Thanks.
00:20:19 <wob_jonas> fizzie: can I link your logs from https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal ?
00:21:19 <fizzie> wob_jonas: Eventually, sure, but they might not be quite ready for consumption yet. In particular, the index doesn't pick up new daily logs automatically yet, amusingly enough. Let me do a little bit of polish before that.
00:21:35 <wob_jonas> ok
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00:51:12 <oerjan> shachaf: no hth
00:51:23 <shachaf> that's the bad answer hth
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01:34:02 <alexThinkpad> hi
01:34:16 <alexThinkpad> this chan is about esoteric programming languages?
01:34:21 <shachaf> `welcome alexThinkpad
01:34:23 <HackEgo> alexThinkpad: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:34:59 <shachaf> esoteri.ca is for sale for $2000
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01:36:14 <variable> hello humans
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01:49:47 <zzo38> alexThinkpad: Yes
02:08:55 <alexThinkpad> is there something better than regex?
02:09:09 <variable> alexThinkpad: for?
02:09:18 <alexThinkpad> for similar thing that r regex for
02:09:46 <zzo38> Probably it depend the use I suppose, regex seem good enough for many of the thing that it is in use for
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02:10:30 <alexThinkpad> okay so ... what else that can also be somehow good is there else than regex similar like regex?
02:12:43 <zzo38> Can you give some examples of what you might be doing with it?
02:13:02 <alexThinkpad> mhh... let me thin
02:13:04 <alexThinkpad> think
02:13:26 <alexThinkpad> regex belongs to grammars in theoretical computer science
02:14:07 <alexThinkpad> I think about grammars that r either turing complete or a bit more (half) turing complete than regexes already r
02:14:18 <alexThinkpad> the thing is, u can not do anything with regex
02:14:23 <alexThinkpad> cauz they r limeted
02:14:39 <alexThinkpad> because they r not turing complete
02:14:48 <alexThinkpad> in the chomsky hierachy
02:15:23 <alexThinkpad> so if there r also other comparable things like regex
02:15:29 <zzo38> There is also DFA
02:16:03 <alexThinkpad> they don't need to be better in all than regex, but only for certain use cases
02:16:41 <zzo38> Like what kind of use cases?
02:16:53 <alexThinkpad> domain specific language also exists
02:17:07 <alexThinkpad> idk if that could be such
02:17:28 <alexThinkpad> parsers
02:17:34 <alexThinkpad> parsers in general r use cases
02:17:51 <alexThinkpad> and compilers to
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02:24:14 <alexThinkpad> what also would be really good, if u know how to add turing complete (pyhton) code to the regexes to make it then afterwards turing complete
02:24:37 <alexThinkpad> It would be good to have certain sourcecode recepies
02:24:48 <alexThinkpad> for how to combine both worlds best
02:25:01 <alexThinkpad> and so u don't need something better than regexes
02:25:37 <alexThinkpad> there is software using regex that supports flags and jumps
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02:26:02 <zzo38> PCRE does some things
02:26:08 <alexThinkpad> it might be that this already make this turing complete and if not, it still becomes a little nearer to turing completeness this way
02:26:37 <alexThinkpad> I heard that Perl is the best regex thing
02:28:00 <alexThinkpad> I am using sed, python, grep, vim for doing things with regexes
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02:30:16 <zzo38> I use grep and sed and awk and vim, doing things with regexes, and also sometimes JavaScript
02:30:27 <alexThinkpad> :
02:30:29 <alexThinkpad> :)
02:30:35 <zzo38> (I have also written a SQLite extension to use PCRE)
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02:34:53 <zzo38> This is one SQL code that uses the extension for PCRE: http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/cards.sql
02:36:04 <alexThinkpad> nice :)
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03:18:30 <esowiki> [[Esolang:About]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53562&oldid=30621 * Fizzie * (+153) HTTPS for canonical URL; delink voxelperfect.net link (domain squatters); mention Bytemark (no place in the logo icon to explain).
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04:37:28 <esowiki> [[Brain-Flak]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53563&oldid=53060 * Wheatwizard * (+75) /* Interpreters */ Added a link to BrainHack, and implementation language
04:43:56 <esowiki> [[Brain-Flak]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53564&oldid=53563 * Wheatwizard * (+15) Put Monads and Nilads as subsections of Tutorial
04:49:29 <esowiki> [[Brain-Flak]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53565&oldid=53564 * Wheatwizard * (-150) Moved information relevant to interpreters to the interpreters section, adding links to online interpreters as well
04:59:21 <esowiki> [[Brain-Flak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53566&oldid=53565 * Wheatwizard * (+605) Added comments to the tutorial
05:07:22 <esowiki> [[Brain-Flak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53567&oldid=53566 * Wheatwizard * (+191) Added a CNF to avoid ambiguity
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07:54:31 <esowiki> [[User:Jabutosama]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53568&oldid=43158 * Jabutosama * (-250)
07:54:46 <esowiki> [[User:Jabutosama]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53569&oldid=53568 * Jabutosama * (+8)
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10:52:48 <b_jonas> 1? logs
10:52:52 <b_jonas> `? logs
10:52:54 <HackEgo> Logs: see channel topic.
10:56:26 <b_jonas> fizzie: in the raw logs like https://esolangs.org/logs/2017-12-12-raw.txt , the second word of the timestamp is in what unit?
10:57:48 <shachaf> fizzie: did you know esolan.gs is available
10:57:58 <shachaf> how come you don't use that one twh
10:58:58 <shachaf> b_jonas: Looks like microseconds? What else would it be?
10:59:18 <fizzie> Yes, it's the microseconds fraction.
10:59:25 <fizzie> Just following codu.org example.
11:00:25 <shachaf> Is the code that generates this public?
11:00:31 <shachaf> What about the proto file?
11:01:20 <fizzie> shachaf: I'll put it to github eventually. At the moment it's in the same repository as some unpublished stuff, because there were useful bits in there already.
11:01:23 <fizzie> bazel and the "single workspace syndrome", you know.
11:02:17 <shachaf> I know.
11:02:30 <shachaf> This is one of the big scows of the single repository model.
11:02:54 <fizzie> It seems that people have been gravitating towards the repositories.bzl model of dependency handling in bazel.
11:03:07 <shachaf> What's that?
11:04:11 <shachaf> Looking it up the first thing I see is a deprecated repository.
11:04:32 <shachaf> Sounds like some secret Google sauce may have been leaked.
11:04:51 <fizzie> I'm trying to remember where the canonical example was.
11:04:58 <shachaf> Is it https://github.com/bazelbuild/rules_go/blob/master/go/private/repositories.bzl ?
11:05:07 <fizzie> https://github.com/jupp0r/prometheus-cpp/blob/master/repositories.bzl looks almost like it, except it's missing the "omit" flags from the last def.
11:05:39 <fizzie> Looks like there's a few different styles.
11:06:15 <fizzie> The one I'm familiar with looks a little like that, except you pass boolean flags to the 'def go_rules_dependencies' controlling which deps it will include or not.
11:06:37 <shachaf> Did you know github.com tar.gz files for a given tag are nondeterministic?
11:06:53 <fizzie> Here's one: https://github.com/grpc/grpc-java/blob/master/repositories.bzl
11:06:56 <shachaf> Sometimes it decides to regenerate them and ends up with a different tar file.
11:07:06 <fizzie> I did not know that. That's terrible.
11:08:32 <shachaf> What're all these repositories.bzl things accomplishing?
11:09:37 <fizzie> They let you use someone else's repository without having to manually define all the dependencies it has in your own WORKSPACE file. The omit_X flags (and the 'maybe' trick in rules_go) let you still override them if you want to be in control.
11:10:39 <fizzie> In your own WORKSPACE you'd just load("@someone_else//:repositories.bzl", "someone_else_repositories") someone_else_repositories(omit_something=True)
11:11:59 <shachaf> Maybe I should look for a place that uses this.
11:12:55 <shachaf> Why doesn't GitHub support global search across all repositories?
11:13:20 <shachaf> One might imagine that you could make a pretty nice tool for that sort of thing.
11:13:40 <fizzie> Like some sort of a... search for code? A code search?
11:17:29 <b_jonas> I'm still mad about how Topográf has been driven to stop making maps of Budapest, and all we have is these stupid Cartographia maps that are so much worse in quality
11:17:36 <shachaf> Oh, the thing that wasn't clear to me was that maven_jar defines a repository.
11:17:57 <shachaf> I thought it defined a build target.
11:17:59 <b_jonas> It's been like six years now, but that doesn't help because the city is still here and I still need a fuckign map
11:18:26 <fizzie> Right, that macro is intended to be used in a WORKSPACE, not in a BUILD file.
11:18:30 <shachaf> But now I see that it defines a repository and then you depend on "@repository//jar"
11:18:37 <shachaf> Right.
11:18:45 <b_jonas> shachaf: microseconds. ok, thanks
11:18:52 <fizzie> The basic problem is, when you have a workspace rule like http_archive(name = "foo", ...) bazel doesn't really look[*1] at the WORKSPACE file it downloads, so if the build rules in that workspace expect there to be an external repository @bar, they won't work unless you define 'bar' in *your* WORKSPACE. The repositories.bzl trick just makes that a little more painless. [*1] Except nowadays it checks
11:18:58 <fizzie> the workspace name against the name you've given it.
11:20:24 <b_jonas> shachaf: "Why doesn't GitHub support global search across all repositories?" => I think they used to have that. didn't they? at least I heard of multiple people doing searches, but maybe they cloned everything.
11:21:03 <shachaf> Well, even if they did I'd complain because it's not as good as fizzie's hypothetical tool.
11:21:10 <b_jonas> shachaf: in particular, some people have searched for database passwords embedded literally in code, which was some sort of fashion back then, and someone searched for something about constants or whatever
11:21:58 <shachaf> Anyway one time I was using bazel and it gave an error because a tar.gz archive had changed. It turned out github was to blame.
11:22:22 <shachaf> Looks like it's still happening as of Sep: https://github.com/tensorflow/tensorflow/issues/12979
11:23:42 <shachaf> fizzie: Presumably if you have a "real" project at a "real" company, you want to download all the repositories you depend on anyway, so you can build if github or maven or whatever goes down.
11:24:03 <shachaf> In which case I guess you just omit everything and do it yourself?
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11:32:58 <fizzie> Judging from the left-pad fiasco, a lot of "real" companies don't do that. But yeah, if you're doing that you probably won't use the repositories.bzl.
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11:40:31 <shachaf> Perhaps it would be good enough if there was a content-addressed repository that http_archive() etc. could look things up in.
11:40:59 <shachaf> Or maybe you could even put these things inside your repository! But not if you use git.
11:43:30 <shachaf> fizzie: Why isn't FUSE the standard interface for version control systems, anyway?
11:43:41 <shachaf> Isn't actually modifying filese on the filesystem a bit archaic?
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12:10:39 <zseri> found an article about solving a sudoku using SQL: https://www.percona.com/blog/2017/11/22/sudoku-recursive-common-table-expression-solver/
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14:47:44 <b_jonas> ARGH
14:50:00 <b_jonas> I'm careless and ran the wrong command
14:50:19 <b_jonas> then I tried to fix the mess and panicked and ran more wrong commands
14:50:23 <b_jonas> I'm trying to clean up the mess
14:51:34 <b_jonas> I didn't lose any data at least, thanks to the vcs
14:54:42 <Taneb> b_jonas: take a short break, get a glass of water
14:55:46 <zseri> or milk
15:00:03 <Taneb> Milk is also good
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15:04:10 <zseri> just uploaded my text table database library: https://github.com/zserik/zsdatab
15:04:33 <b_jonas> yes, that
15:08:38 <zseri> it is a bit esoteric, as it hasn't a SQL frontend, uses simple text files in the backend and uses (mathematic-) set-like table contexts to search and manipulate data.
15:43:48 <b_jonas> zseri: is there docs for it?
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16:06:08 <zseri> not jet
16:07:20 <zseri> but the src/entry.cxx file (the command line frontend) shows the basic usage of tables and contexts
16:08:03 <zseri> transactions are like contexts, but they don't hold data, only the commands that will be applied to them
16:08:53 <zseri> transaction commands also optimize themself by looking at the last 'pushed' command and possible modification of that
16:10:58 <zseri> the header file src/zsdatable.hpp contains the whole public API, but the only function I really described inside it is inner_join, because it's a newer function needed in practical usage
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16:46:47 <Taneb> Ugh, it feels so late
16:46:50 <Taneb> It's quarter to 5
16:46:52 <Taneb> pm
16:47:24 <int-e> move to central europe :P
16:47:37 <int-e> (though a quarter to 6 isn't much better, I suppose)
16:48:30 <Taneb> int-e: my five year plan involves moving to Italy
16:49:08 <int-e> your what?
16:50:16 <Taneb> Plan for the next five years
16:52:10 <int-e> (The last time I had a five year plan was in 1986 to 1989...)
16:52:40 <Taneb> (what was your age in 1986?)
16:52:45 <int-e> ...it didn't end well. (This is referring to GDR (aka Eastern Germany)
16:52:50 <Taneb> (I see)
16:53:27 <int-e> Let's say I wasn't a teenager yet.
16:53:51 <Taneb> Anyway, yeah, my plan is to work for a few years here, save up a pile of money, then move to my girlfriend's flat in Italy and try to do a PhD near there
16:54:38 <Taneb> I wonder how hard it would be to convince my bank and my employer to let me get paid and save my money in euros...
16:55:20 <zzo38> I read document about OpenID Connect, is there a way to access RDF data with it and/or to use with command-line access and other non-HTML-based access?
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17:28:23 <esowiki> [[WLoop]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53570 * Sacchan * (+3611) Created page with "'''WLoop''' (pronounced "double loop") is a [[Turing-complete]] language based on [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOOP_(programming_language) LOOP] and [https://en.wikipedia.or..."
17:28:47 <esowiki> [[WLoop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53571&oldid=53570 * Sacchan * (+99)
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17:33:56 <zseri> zsdatab documentation https://github.com/zserik/zsdatab/blob/master/README.md
17:36:13 <esowiki> [[WLoop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53572&oldid=53571 * Sacchan * (+0) /* Example U-functions */
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17:39:49 <zseri> b_jonas: zsdatab doc https://github.com/zserik/zsdatab/blob/master/README.md
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17:54:52 <b_jonas> zseri: ah, so you don't even pretend to take sql-like syntax?
17:55:04 <b_jonas> but instead have some completely different syntaxd
17:55:05 <b_jonas> ok
17:56:13 <zseri> I have a simple CLi and I find SQL overly complex, instead I use set-like operations to emulate select statements ...
18:00:19 <zseri> e.g. instead of SQL "SELECT ... WHERE x = 'abc', b = 'dcd'" it uses "ctx.filter("x", "abc").filter("b", "dcd")"
18:01:20 <zseri> or SQL "SELECT WHERE NOT x = 'abc'" -> "ctx.filter("x", "abc").negate()"
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18:06:23 <zseri> and because I use native C++ and would recommend using C++ in zsdatab clients for the interface, I omit quoting errors
18:24:07 <b_jonas> zseri: ok. how do you find the next row with a key higher or lower than a certain value, to iterate on rows in a certain order?
18:26:27 <b_jonas> as in, provided there's CREATE TABLE t(k, w, v); CREATE INDEX i ON t(k ASC, w ASC); how do you find SELECT w, v FROM t WHERE ? = k AND ? < w ORDER BY w LIMIT 1;
18:27:21 <b_jonas> supposing there are also rows in the table already
18:29:33 <zseri> you must go through the data buffer manually. 1. use 'tab.data()' to get the buffer. 2. use c++11 for(auto &&i : tab.data()) for iterating and tab.get_metadata().get_field_nr(...) to find the column nr
18:44:09 <zseri> b_jonas: https://gist.github.com/zserik/911ad922cec6c9b95269102523efdbf8
18:47:30 <b_jonas> zseri: so you have to query all the SELECT w,v FROM t WHERE ? = k; and then process it by hand. ok.
18:47:44 <zseri> yes
18:49:56 <zseri> I had good luck that I kept the zsdatab::metadata.serialize method public
18:50:01 <b_jonas> `? font
18:50:02 <HackEgo> ​#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz
18:50:28 <fizzie> Should I add my font there?
18:52:30 <int-e> grr github... a lost cookie is no excuse for losing the ticket text I just typed.
18:53:41 <fizzie> `wc wisdom/font
18:53:41 <HackEgo> ​ 1 16 265 wisdom/font
18:54:38 <b_jonas> fizzie: you have a font?
18:55:00 <b_jonas> and sure, add it.
18:57:50 <\oren\_> hmm, this line of perl is a little too perlly
18:57:53 <\oren\_> $svnrev = $1 if +(grep /Revision/,split(/\n/,`svn info`))[0] =~ m/(\d+)/;
18:58:01 <zseri> hm
18:59:22 <\oren\_> but I'm not sure how I can make it less perlly
18:59:48 <\oren\_> `? perl
18:59:49 <HackEgo> Perl is the Perfect Emacs Rewriting Language
19:00:25 <fizzie> `` sed -i -e "s|$| , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font|" wisdom/font
19:00:27 <HackEgo> No output.
19:00:31 <fizzie> b_jonas: It's a 4x6 pixel font (with 3x5 characters) I made for the robotfindskitten TI-86 port, and its website.
19:00:49 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/rfk86/ should be rendered in it, if web fonts still work like they used to years ago.
19:01:40 <\oren\_> fizzie: works!
19:01:47 <\oren\_> nice!
19:02:26 <fizzie> I don't think it's especially original or clever, though I still like the 's'.
19:04:24 <b_jonas> `? font
19:04:25 <HackEgo> ​#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font
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21:06:29 <oerjan> `cat bin/sed
21:06:30 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/bash \ /bin/sed "$@" && if [[ $# == "3" && "/$1" == "/-i" ]]; then echo -n "$3//"; cat "$3"; fi
21:07:14 <zseri> bye
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21:07:38 <oerjan> it doesn't work with fizzie's sed commands :(
21:11:27 <oerjan> `? font
21:11:28 <HackEgo> ​#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font
21:20:50 <fizzie> I assume I should be using the canonical commands, I just can never remember them.
21:22:10 <fizzie> I mean, how are you supposed to remember something like what's the difference between learn_append and learn_append2?
21:48:57 <oerjan> `cat bin/learn_append2
21:48:58 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/bash
21:49:08 <oerjan> hum
21:49:23 <oerjan> `url bin/learn_append2
21:49:23 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/learn_append2
21:50:48 <oerjan> `` cat -v bin/learn_append2
21:50:49 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/bash^M \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//')^M \ echo "$1" >>"wisdom/$topic"^M \ echo "I knew that."
21:50:55 <oerjan> ah
21:51:06 <oerjan> `url bin/learn_append
21:51:06 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/learn_append
21:52:08 <oerjan> `doag bin/learn_append2
21:52:18 <HackEgo> 4884:2014-09-26 <mroman̈_> sed -e \'s/^M//g\' bin/learn_append > bin/learn_append2 \ 4883:2014-09-26 <mroman̈_> sed -i -e \'s/^M//g\' bin/learn_append > bin/learn_append2
21:53:08 <oerjan> `doag bin/learn_append
21:53:14 <HackEgo> 6445:2015-12-22 <olsnër> ` sed -i \'/^topic/ s/\\$.*$/"&"/\' bin/learn_append \ 5047:2014-10-10 <oerjän> sed -i \'6s/[*]/"\\n/\' bin/learn_append \ 5046:2014-10-10 <oerjän> sed -i \'6cecho -n "Learned \'"\'"\'$topic\'"\'"\': *cat "wisdom/$topic"\' bin/learn_append \ 5045:2014-10-10 <oerjän> revert \ 5044:2014-10-10 <oerjän> sed -i \'6cech
21:54:06 <oerjan> `rm bin/learn_append2
21:54:07 <HackEgo> No output.
21:54:16 <oerjan> fizzie: PROBLEM SOLVED
21:54:37 <oerjan> `cat bin/learn_append
21:54:38 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/bash \ topic="$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//')" \ stuff=$(echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-) \ perl -i -p -e 's/\n/ /' "wisdom/$topic" \ echo "$stuff" >>"wisdom/$topic" \ echo -n "Learned '$topic': " \ cat "wisdom/$topic"
21:55:20 <oerjan> it _looks_ like it was just left over from some attempt to fix the original.
21:57:51 <oerjan> that second line looks a bit misguided.
21:58:52 <oerjan> `? test
21:58:53 <HackEgo> test failed. HackEgo-JUnit is not available.
21:59:17 <oerjan> `learn_append A test is a test, in jest, in jest.
21:59:20 <HackEgo> Learned 'test': test failed. HackEgo-JUnit is not available. test is a test, in jest, in jest.
21:59:28 <oerjan> `revert
21:59:29 <HackEgo> Done.
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22:00:58 <oerjan> `sled bin/learn_append//2s,s/.*;,,
22:01:00 <HackEgo> bin/learn_append//#!/bin/bash \ topic="$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/s\? .*//')" \ stuff=$(echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-) \ perl -i -p -e 's/\n/ /' "wisdom/$topic" \ echo "$stuff" >>"wisdom/$topic" \ echo -n "Learned '$topic': " \ cat "wisdom/$topic"
22:01:30 <oerjan> `learn_append A test is a test, in jest, in jest.
22:01:32 <HackEgo> Learned 'a': A is a village in Norway. The BBC invented it by not understanding things on top of letters. test is a test, in jest, in jest.
22:01:39 <oerjan> `revert
22:01:40 <HackEgo> Done.
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22:45:34 <esowiki> [[Tick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53573&oldid=53082 * Rdebath * (-21) Shorter HW and interpreter.
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23:40:01 <boily> @metar CYUL
23:40:02 <lambdabot> CYUL 122300Z 01016G22KT 3SM -SN DRSN FEW012 OVC020 M08/M10 A2944 RMK SF2SC6 SLP973
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23:54:31 <fizzie> @metar EGLL
23:54:31 <lambdabot> EGLL 122350Z AUTO 20009KT 9999 -RA SCT027 BKN031 BKN044 06/05 Q1004 TEMPO 6000 -RA BKN012
2017-12-13
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00:05:09 <fizzie> I need to say something with all kinds of formatting, to test a thing. It should even have background colors.
00:09:33 <boily> mysterious V format.
00:09:46 <boily> oh, reverse!
00:09:52 <fizzie> The reverse video I didn't do.
00:10:09 <boily> fizziello. will you put the logs in the /topic?
00:10:13 <fizzie> Because https://modern.ircdocs.horse/formatting.html said it's a little unclear.
00:10:18 <fizzie> As soon as they're ready.
00:10:59 <shachaf> `? #esteric
00:11:00 <HackEgo> ​#esteric? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:11:06 <shachaf> `? #esoteric
00:11:07 <HackEgo> ​#esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperenchilada about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. Currently located in the Atlantis Exclusion Zone.
00:12:33 <fizzie> There's about five TODOs to address before I think the logs would be ready enough to publicize.
00:14:33 <fizzie> (1) Add a blurb (probably at the bottom of the index page) with explanations and links to other logs; (2) start the log-server as a service rather than just running it in a screen manually; (3) read the config from a file instead of it being hardcoded; (4) publish the source code; and (5) make the CSS not *horribly* broken on mobile.
00:14:33 <boily> have you heard of our lord and saviour Cucumber, of the Holy Acceptance Test-Driven Development?
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00:21:06 <fizzie> Oh, tests would be nice too.
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00:34:09 <fizzie> 2 & 3 done.
00:54:31 <boily> fungot: are your nostrils dæmoniac?
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01:09:27 <fizzie> 5 done-ish. It's not *good* by any means, but I added extra line spacing in the index for @media (pointer:coarse), and then added a @media (max-width: 640px) breakpoint on the logs page to switch to a "time <nick>\nmessage\n\n"-style layout instead.
01:09:43 <fizzie> There's still one CSS trick I've not managed, and that is to have in the desktop experience, simultaneously, (a) the message body section take up any extra space without scripting, (b) the messages to line-wrap aligned to where they start, and (c) the end result be copy-pasteable without horrible extra newlines.
01:09:48 <fizzie> I ended up doing (a) & (b) by "display: flex", but now there's newlines everywhere. When I tried non-flexboxy ways which did (c) well, either I had to specify a width or the lines would wrap to the left edge.
01:09:58 <fizzie> Webdev is hard and unpleasant. :/
01:12:27 <shachaf> fizzie: The one-page version is much more convenient.
01:12:37 <shachaf> Why paginate it by year?
01:14:19 <fizzie> It was behaving real sluggishly for me. I can add an "all" view, but I think I'll still keep the default as the most recent year.
01:15:09 <shachaf> sgtm
01:15:49 <shachaf> Is it going to have codu.org's stalker mode?
01:18:49 <fizzie> That's a v2 thing. Maybe? I didn't check yet how that's implemented, though I think I saw some XHR being involved.
01:19:49 <fizzie> Guess it should be websockets these days.
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08:12:34 <esowiki> [[Purple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53574&oldid=53520 * Quintopia * (-25) golf python interpreter
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08:15:37 <esowiki> [[Purple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53575&oldid=53574 * Quintopia * (-1) just one more byte, i promise
08:23:20 <esowiki> [[Purple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53576&oldid=53575 * Quintopia * (-20) okay a few more bytes off python interpreter
08:25:29 <esowiki> [[Purple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53577&oldid=53576 * Quintopia * (-3) okay i swear these are the last two bytes for the night
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10:22:40 <Taneb> Whoa #esoteric is 15?
10:23:40 <shachaf> It's 11 for me.
10:24:40 <Taneb> shachaf: the topic disagrees it would seem
10:25:04 <shachaf> Nope, definite window 11.
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11:17:07 <b_jonas> fizzie: "how are you supposed to remember the difference between learn_append and learn_append2?" => you just have to remember that wisdoms are stored as plain text files in the wisdom directory, lowercased and with a trailing s stripped from their name, and the `? rules of wisdom
11:17:13 <b_jonas> `? rules of wisdom
11:17:14 <HackEgo> unless essential for the entry‘s humor, should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
11:17:42 <b_jonas> then you can manipulate them with ordinary unix tools. this is the whole point of using plain text for all sort of source files and configuration files, that we can use the same tools for each of them
11:18:04 <b_jonas> you can make custom tools if you prefer, but you're not required to use other people's custom tools
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11:26:40 <fizzie> b_jonas: Manipulating them with standard tools is exactly what I do, but people complain I don't use the tools.
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11:28:07 <b_jonas> fizzie: hmm.
11:28:13 <shachaf> `slwd rules of wisdom//s/should/they &/
11:28:15 <HackEgo> rules of wisdom//unless essential for the entry‘s humor, they should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
11:29:15 <shachaf> `cat bin/learn_append
11:29:16 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/bash \ topic="$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/s\? .*//')" \ stuff=$(echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-) \ perl -i -p -e 's/\n/ /' "wisdom/$topic" \ echo "$stuff" >>"wisdom/$topic" \ echo -n "Learned '$topic': " \ cat "wisdom/$topic"
11:29:17 <shachaf> `cat bin/learn_append2
11:29:18 <HackEgo> cat: bin/learn_append2: No such file or directory
11:29:30 <shachaf> fizzie: seems p. easy to remember to me hth
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11:38:18 <b_jonas> do we have a command for (1) looking up a wisdom from name and returning its filename, or (2) doing normalization on the name of a new wisdom and returning the filename you should create it as?
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11:59:42 <boily> b_jellonas. I think we settled on normalization hth
12:01:31 <b_jonas> boily: we didn't settle. someone changed the handling of leading backtick just half a year ago or something.
12:02:52 <boily> oh.
12:08:10 <b_jonas> or maybe not? hmm
12:08:15 <b_jonas> `? `rules of wisdom
12:08:16 <HackEgo> unless essential for the entry‘s humor, they should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
12:08:22 <b_jonas> yeah, it was changed
12:10:38 <Hooloovo0> `? hand
12:10:39 <HackEgo> A hand in the bush is better than a stoned bird.
12:10:46 <b_jonas> that applies to case (1) only I think
12:10:49 <b_jonas> but still
12:11:07 <b_jonas> who knows, maybe next time we'll install a stemmer or something
12:11:20 <b_jonas> that would make hand-normalization pretty much impossible
12:14:51 <b_jonas> oh, a tutorial for making up misattributed quotes: http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=3225
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12:39:07 <esowiki> [[WLoop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53578&oldid=53572 * Sacchan * (+135)
12:39:27 <esowiki> [[User:Sacchan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53579&oldid=43739 * Sacchan * (+12)
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15:22:33 -!- fizzie has set topic: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
15:22:39 <fizzie> Might as well have it there.
15:23:13 <Taneb> Oooh, nice
15:23:51 <fizzie> Not sure if the canonical links in the topic should be https://.
15:24:46 <fizzie> It is set up like that in the wiki configuration, but AFAIK that only affects two things: the links in the recent changes posted by the bot, and the links included in any automated emails.
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15:31:49 <b_jonas> `? no reason
15:31:50 <HackEgo> no reason? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
15:32:01 <b_jonas> `? any reason
15:32:02 <b_jonas> `? reason
15:32:02 <HackEgo> any reason? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
15:32:03 <HackEgo> reason? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
15:34:22 <Taneb> b_jonas: HackEgo is completely unreasonable
15:38:13 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53580&oldid=49124 * Fizzie * (+42) /* #Esoteric */ Add local logs link.
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16:08:19 <b_jonas> So in github, to create a pull request, I still have to clone the repository to a github account, right?
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16:15:09 <Taneb> b_jonas: if you don't have write permission to the repo, according to Github's help doc
16:21:47 <zseri> hm
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16:25:50 <b_jonas> Taneb: ok
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17:57:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53581&oldid=53580 * Ais523 * (-236) /* Information */ rm section; not much point in supporting an esolang section on Stack Overflow Documentation when the entire site has shut down
18:08:45 <\oren\_> how to delete all files in /tmp/ belonging to me?
18:09:40 <zseri> rm -rf /tmp/ as you?
18:10:00 <\oren\_> zseri: that will also delete files that I have write access to
18:10:06 <zseri> oh
18:10:07 <\oren\_> but don't belong to me
18:10:28 <zseri> find /tmp/ -user ... -rm ?
18:10:51 <\oren\_> hmmm find... yeah I'll look at teh manpage
18:11:45 <\oren\_> find -maxdepth 1 -user oren -delete
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18:18:38 <zseri> I should introduce a cursor class into zsdatab for context browsing, e.g. access of fields by name in each row
18:19:03 <int-e> fizzie: hmm, dead link?
18:20:14 <int-e> (the logs one)
18:22:40 <int-e> never mind.
18:23:12 * int-e was bitten by an outdated entry in /etc/hosts ...
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18:48:49 <int-e> hoerjelloan
18:52:50 <int-e> `quote chicken
18:52:52 <HackEgo> 303) <monqy> my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I become the chicken and I really want to make soup \ 601) <Darth_Cliche> There's British KFC? Kent
18:55:34 <oerjan> hint-e
18:55:42 <oerjan> hm still no xkcd
18:57:28 <int-e> Monday's Freefall was nice.
18:58:58 <int-e> (I liked the twist on "we're the worst people to do it")
19:15:41 <esowiki> [[CJam]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53582&oldid=53021 * Nooodl * (-2) fix attribution
19:27:09 <oerjan> fizzie: looked at the new logs index, somehow all the months show as overlapping each other.
19:27:30 <oerjan> (probably can blame IE somehow.)
19:28:33 * oerjan falls back to address bar editing, which is how he usually accesses the logs anyway
19:28:43 <fizzie> oerjan: CSS is hard. :/ I probably shouldn't have even attempted to make it use several columns, I was just annoyed at the lots of wasted screen real estate.
19:29:04 <oerjan> oh columns...
19:29:24 <fizzie> Well, it's not really columns. It's a flexbox.
19:29:42 <fizzie> https://caniuse.com/#search=flexbox says IE 11 but "Partial support is due to large amount of bugs present (see known issues)".
19:29:52 <oerjan> OKAY
19:30:23 <fizzie> Which version of IE are you interested in?
19:31:03 <oerjan> well i'm using 11, which is the final one.
19:36:10 <fizzie> Looking at those known issues, maybe I can make some tweaks. Wonder if there's good free ways to test with IE.
19:45:57 <oerjan> it's not that big of a deal for me, anyway
19:49:08 <\oren\_> fizzie: you can get a free windows 10 virtual box on microsoft website
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19:53:39 <oerjan> <fizzie> b_jonas: Manipulating them with standard tools is exactly what I do, but people complain I don't use the tools. <-- to be more precise, what i complain about is any kind of edit where i cannot see from what happens in the channel whether you messed something up. which is why the HackEgo tools all display the resulting file.
19:57:07 <oerjan> (and for wisdoms, whether there was one previously.)
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20:23:21 <wob_jonas> fizzie: a next/previous link in the HTML version of the new logs might make sense
20:26:35 <int-e> hmm, today gog speaks russian with me
20:31:16 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Minin * New user account
20:34:49 <wob_jonas> int-e: who is gog
20:35:28 <int-e> a drm free game shop
20:39:41 <int-e> it seems that their front page is served from a cache which isn't good at guessing languages. it's amusing.
20:42:44 <wob_jonas> youtube is sometimes stupid at finding musical numbers from phrases in their lyrics. you have to use the title.
20:43:30 <wob_jonas> if I search for 'oda is eljőnek szüzek szép leányok' directly in youtube, it finds random nonsense, even though if I search for that in the main google search, it knows which song that is from
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21:01:55 <fizzie> wob_jonas: Agreed, was going to add one.
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21:06:07 <wob_jonas> thanks
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21:21:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53583&oldid=53560 * Minin * (+262) /* Introductions */
21:22:05 <esowiki> [[User:Minin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53584 * Minin * (+13) Created page with "me me big boy"
21:22:26 <esowiki> [[User talk:Minin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53585 * Minin * (+3) Created page with "no."
21:23:51 <wob_jonas> also, I wonder if it would be worth splitting to fewer pages, not one per day, but like one per week or one per two weeks
21:25:48 <int-e> `relcome esowiki
21:25:49 <HackEgo> esowiki: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
21:32:46 <int-e> fizzie: fwiw, I like the 1 day granularity.
21:36:06 <oerjan> <int-e> hmm, today gog speaks russian with me <-- * briefly reads that as "dog"
21:36:23 <fizzie> Days are sort of the convention. That's not to say I couldn't offer other granularities as well, e.g. as /weeks.html for the index and /YYYY-wNN.{html,txt} for the logs.
21:39:10 <fizzie> They're actually saved as logs/Y/M/D.pb(.br) with no padding of dates, which I kind of regret, because ls sorts the months "1 10 11 12 2 3 ..." and so on. (There's probably an option.)
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21:45:44 <zseri> bye
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21:46:50 <int-e> fizzie: I'm kind of tempted to suggest marking the days of the week, thus: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/e.html
21:47:53 <int-e> (I did that manually so I stopped after 1 1/2 months)
21:51:27 <wob_jonas> fizzie: longer files would help searches
21:52:22 <esowiki> [[User:Minin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53586&oldid=53584 * Minin * (+42)
21:52:54 <esowiki> [[Kappa]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53587 * Minin * (+57) Created page with "kappa is a language coded by humans, this page is a w.i.p"
21:58:15 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * K1nzy * New user account
21:59:55 * ais523 vaguely wonders why IRC documentation would use a .horse domain name
22:01:03 * int-e wonders whether ais523 has looked at Countercall in the past month.
22:01:27 <wob_jonas> `? countercall
22:01:28 <HackEgo> countercall? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:02:11 <ais523> int-e: I look at recent changes sometimes but can easily miss changes to my watchlist as a result
22:02:12 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Countercall
22:02:23 <int-e> (I'm still annoyed by how difficult it is to reason about, despite being obviously non-TC ;-) )
22:02:27 <ais523> nope, nobody's changed it
22:02:32 <ais523> also I'm not convinced it's non-TC
22:02:42 <int-e> I know, hence the smiley.
22:02:45 <ais523> if it is non-TC, it's for a bizarre reason that isn't shared with most other languages
22:02:51 <int-e> In fact you state the opposite on the wiki page.
22:02:54 <ais523> as opposed to one of the usual ones
22:03:16 <ais523> like, some sort of chicken-and-egg style problem where to do anything in the language you need to do something else first
22:03:48 <wob_jonas> ais523: ah yes, that crazy language
22:03:52 <int-e> Anyway, the thing still bugs me.
22:04:09 <wob_jonas> int-e: what? how is it "obviously non-TC"?
22:04:15 <wob_jonas> ah, smiley
22:04:41 <wob_jonas> ais523: I really can't make up my mind on whether it's TC
22:05:03 <wob_jonas> sometimes I think it's non-TC and there's probably an easy proof for that but it's hard to find
22:05:12 <wob_jonas> and sometimes I think it's TC
22:06:05 <ais523> int-e: I thought about countercall a bit because of the interview
22:06:11 <ais523> but haven't come to conclusions
22:06:20 <ais523> I don't think this is something I could do a TCness proof for in my head
22:06:24 <ais523> (which is my preferred way to do them)
22:07:06 <wob_jonas> yeah. I did a proof that dofuck is TC in my head, and only has the very minimal limitations with IO that are obvious, but never written them down
22:07:22 <wob_jonas> also some proofs about my messed up Amycus with certain primitives removed
22:07:26 <esowiki> [[Kappa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53588&oldid=53587 * Minin * (+436)
22:08:01 <wob_jonas> but in the case of Amycus, finding out that the originally intended language is much less of an esolang made me abandon that
22:08:43 <wob_jonas> I also know that the language I want to create is TC, and more, it can simulate a pointer machine "efficiently", with only polylog factor of time slowdown
22:08:48 <int-e> ais523: did you know that the typed lambda calculus is not TC even if you add a family of fixed point combinators? (a family, because you may need one for every type.)
22:09:28 <wob_jonas> but that one is easier, because I'm deliberately creating that language to be expressive, unlike Countercall which you deliberately define to be hard to use
22:09:41 <ais523> int-e: no, in fact that would greatly surprise me
22:09:54 <ais523> is the problem that there are only finitely many functions of any given type?
22:10:08 <ais523> wob_jonas: countercall was aiming for the edge between TC and not
22:10:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: as in the typed lambda calculus with no algebraic data type?
22:10:14 <ais523> but I think it hit it more precisely than I was expecting
22:10:40 <int-e> (Richard Statman proved that the halting problem is still, somehow, decidable in that calculus. (The paper is called "On The Lambda Y Calculus"))
22:11:07 <int-e> wob_jonas: yes, no algebraic datatypes
22:11:08 <ais523> wob_jonas: you can simulate sum and product types in typed lambda calculus
22:11:19 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah, but I want recursive types too
22:11:32 <wob_jonas> as in, lists
22:11:32 <ais523> ah right, recursive types are more power than typed lambda calculus has
22:11:38 <ais523> infinite ones, anyway
22:11:50 <int-e> Adding any non-empty recursive type (and fixed point combinators) will make it TC.
22:12:09 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, I know, I wrote a loop combinator that way
22:12:23 <wob_jonas> implemented in olvasható
22:13:17 <zemhill> web.forward: points -44.00, score 0.00, rank 46/47
22:13:20 <zemhill> web.forward: points -44.00, score 0.00, rank 46/47 (--)
22:13:23 <wob_jonas> hmm wait, maybe that's not just one type
22:13:29 <zemhill> web.forward: points -44.00, score 0.00, rank 46/47 (--)
22:13:34 <wob_jonas> maybe it's one type constructor
22:14:32 <wob_jonas> but I guess you could just use one recursive type that's a union of everything, simulate a weakly typed language, and then, if you prefer, simulate a strongly typed language in that weakly typed language
22:14:37 <int-e> natural numbers (ala data Nat = Z | S Nat) suffice
22:15:11 <wob_jonas> http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/olvashato/t2n.olv -- yeah, that's not one type, that's in fact two type constructors with two type parameters each. sorry.
22:15:27 <ais523> huh, someone's playing BF Joust
22:16:43 <wob_jonas> and yeah, I also use the built-in integer number types to do useful things with that loop
22:16:52 <wob_jonas> and the built-in list type too
22:17:03 <wob_jonas> although lists aren't technically necessary
22:17:06 <wob_jonas> whatever
22:19:52 <wob_jonas> I wish rust had an attribute to tell that a given type parameter in a generic fn definition is a phantom parameter, as in that changing it won't change the generated code. the compiler could check this and allow it only if it can prove that it's indeed phantom in that sense.
22:20:11 <wob_jonas> of course this is hard to define precisely without knowing how rust represents certain types.
22:20:42 <oerjan> !zjoust hmmm <
22:20:42 <zemhill> oerjan.hmmm: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
22:20:45 <ais523> wob_jonas: does PhantomData do what you want?
22:20:52 <wob_jonas> ais523: no
22:21:03 <wob_jonas> ais523: PhantomData does something else
22:21:08 <ais523> right
22:21:20 <ais523> I know what PhantomData does but not really what you want
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22:21:29 <ais523> do you mean "uninspected", as in the code just copies around the value without looking at it?
22:21:38 <ais523> oerjan: this reminds me, has there been a new hilltopper in 2017 at all?
22:21:42 <ais523> I used to do one a year
22:21:46 <oerjan> i don't remember
22:21:51 <ais523> but I'm out of ideas and am worried that BF Joust has been solved
22:21:55 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategy
22:22:00 <ais523> err
22:22:02 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies
22:22:09 <esowiki> [[Kappa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53589&oldid=53588 * Minin * (+549)
22:22:11 <ais523> nope, 2016
22:22:33 <oerjan> i think things got haywire after that beat-everything-on-the-hill program someone wrote
22:22:54 <ais523> right, there was some sort of automatic winning program generator, wasn't there?
22:22:58 <quintopia> i'm so gld they did because if they didn't i was going to
22:23:00 <ais523> which means you'd have to keep source secret in the future
22:23:04 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, it can't even copy around such values, because it would have to know at least the size of that type for that, and we can't express a constraint that implies the size of a type, except possibly in a degenerate way that only zero or one types satisfy
22:23:32 <ais523> wob_jonas: it can copy around pointers to them though
22:23:37 <quintopia> ais523: actually, you wouldn't need secret source if you either a) added some source of randomness or b) made the hill infinite
22:23:43 <ais523> like, with a Box<T> you don't care what the T is
22:23:53 <wob_jonas> ais523: it could copy pointers, yes, but it's also possible that it doesn't do even that
22:23:58 <ais523> quintopia: I think a) would ruin the game
22:24:08 <ais523> and b) doesn't really work because it'd still only have finitely many programs at any given point
22:24:47 <quintopia> ais523: b) works because you could submit a family of programs, all similar, such that it was impossible for the same strategy to beat all of them (i think)
22:25:16 <oerjan> well we already constructed one such family
22:25:18 <ais523> quintopia: yes but you need a huge number of them
22:25:22 <quintopia> yes
22:25:24 <ais523> several hundred
22:25:30 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53590&oldid=53583 * K1nzy * (+193) /* Introductions */
22:25:30 <quintopia> but you could generate them automatically
22:25:30 <ais523> I constructed them a while back, I think
22:25:38 <quintopia> it's a different game, but it isn't broken
22:25:38 <ais523> also it's only to avoid being beaten on all tape lengths and polarities
22:25:39 <wob_jonas> oerjan: a finite family?
22:25:49 <ais523> specifically they win on tape length 10
22:25:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: ah
22:26:22 <quintopia> and several hundred programs is not a problem for an infinite hill, is it?
22:26:27 <wob_jonas> ais523: wait, so what does it guarantee exactly?
22:26:39 <esowiki> [[Kappa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53591&oldid=53589 * K1nzy * (-654)
22:27:07 <wob_jonas> ais523: does it guarantee that against any fixed program, at least one of your family on at least one polarity will not lose on tape length 10?
22:27:12 <wob_jonas> or does it guarantee more?
22:27:25 <wob_jonas> several hundred doesn't sound too bad
22:27:29 <ais523> wob_jonas: that in the group of 768 programs, against any fixed program, at least one of those 768 programs will beat it on tape length 10 for any specific polarity
22:27:41 <wob_jonas> ais523: ok
22:27:48 <wob_jonas> 768 is not too much
22:28:17 <quintopia> ais523: why would a source of randomness ruin the game? for instance, why wouldn't "bf joust except every tape cell starts with value x, with x chosen uniformly at random from 0 to 255" be a bad game?
22:29:29 <ais523> quintopia: that proposal might not ruin things (apart from the small random chance every program would have of dying if the same rule applied to the flags), but in general randomness allows you to set decoys much more easily than you can deal with them
22:29:39 <wob_jonas> I mean, you might try to start such a construction by taking all possible strategies a program can do in the first 100000 steps, which would be like 5**2**100001 distinguishable strategies, and then construct a program against each
22:29:46 <wob_jonas> then you'd have a rather large infinite family
22:29:51 <moony> BF Jousting? Why not. *begins research*
22:30:33 <ais523> wob_jonas: there's a time limit
22:30:40 <ais523> so there are only finitely many possible BF Joust programs in theory
22:30:41 <wob_jonas> and since you keep writing proofs about two-counter machines, which have a double-exponential slowdown from sane computing models, I don't think it's strange that I think of that when you mention a finite family
22:30:42 <quintopia> ais523: re: the flags, just make it so that winning/dying involves having the flag set to x+128 instead of zero
22:30:44 <ais523> (the space is very large tohugh)
22:30:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, exactly, the time limit is 100000 turns. that's what I said.
22:31:20 <ais523> quintopia: so what you have now is equivalent to BF Joust where [ and ] test for a random (but consistent) number rather than 0
22:31:24 <ais523> writing a program for that seems painful
22:31:34 <quintopia> yes exactly
22:31:37 <quintopia> why painful?
22:31:52 <ais523> like, even if you know where the enemy flag is, zeroing it would require quite a lot of code
22:32:14 <wob_jonas> and there probably aren't much less than 2**c**100001 different strategies for some not too small constant c if you allow exponentially large program source codes
22:32:23 <ais523> !zjoust runner (>)*8(>[-])*21
22:32:23 <zemhill> ais523.runner: points -12.48, score 10.90, rank 44/47
22:32:26 <shachaf> This is a nice idea for a self-modifying game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca5BYKRVXHM
22:32:28 <quintopia> would you rather the initial tape value just didn't apply to the flags?
22:32:34 <ais523> whereas a simple attack is trivial to write
22:32:46 <ais523> quintopia: still doesn't help much
22:33:00 <quintopia> wait, why is it a good thing that a simple attack is trivial to write?
22:33:03 <ais523> the fact is that [-] is much simpler and shorter than any routine for setting a cell to some fixed value for which you don't even know what it is
22:33:06 <quintopia> isn't it supposed to be hard to win?
22:33:18 <ais523> and I imagine that in practice every program would have 256 different variants, copy-and-pasted
22:33:21 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:33:28 <ais523> also, the skill of BF Joust is about exploiting patterns in what your opponents do
22:33:39 <ais523> just look at growth2, for example
22:33:40 <esowiki> [[Kappa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53592&oldid=53591 * K1nzy * (+441)
22:33:59 <quintopia> wait wait...why would it not help if we had "bf joust except that every tape value /except the flags/ is uniformly random x"?
22:34:02 <ais523> if very basic things require very complex code, the patterns will be hard to exploit because they'll be complex in your own right
22:34:12 <quintopia> you can still [-]
22:34:12 <wob_jonas> quintopia: eww no
22:34:32 <wob_jonas> that would ruin the beauty and simplicity of bfjoust
22:34:50 * int-e eyes wob_jonas suspiciously.
22:34:52 <ais523> quintopia: because in that case, decoys don't really work because most code won't be able to distinguish them from the original value anyway
22:34:54 <quintopia> wob_jonas: beauty+simplicity=solved. the whole goal here is to ruin it in some small way
22:35:11 <quintopia> ais523: decoys wouldn't be an important strategy in this new game
22:35:40 <ais523> well, what /would/ be an important strategy?
22:35:55 <ais523> nearly all the attack innovations are designed to deal with decoys
22:36:03 <int-e> So what would be a strategy? Go forward 10 steps, and start clearing?
22:36:31 <wob_jonas> also that's a search space of like 257**28 different starting patterns, although the server would probably only do a statistical test on a set of starting patterns chosen crypto randomly, but still, there might be a lot of pairs of programs that beat each other very close to 1/2 the time, and that would be hard to judge
22:36:33 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53593&oldid=53550 * K1nzy * (+12) /* Non-alphabetic */
22:36:34 <quintopia> turtle would still be viable. defense would still be viable. a lot of other things would require innovation from scratch.
22:36:51 <int-e> Basically the whole art of defense would probably be lost... and there's no reasonable way of guessing the tape length anymore.
22:37:21 * int-e shrugs.
22:38:25 <quintopia> well if everyone abandons decoys...it would be possible to check tape length by looking at tape cells and seeing if they have the same value. it's slower, but maybe that's a good thing.
22:38:54 <quintopia> then it becomes useful to modify the tape cells to be slightly different from their sstarting values, and decoys come back
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22:40:05 <ais523> quintopia: well what probably happens is that people write 256 different versions of their code and just change between them based on the second tape element
22:40:25 <ais523> you can't practically interfere with that; a fast rush program could do so in current BF Joust but you can't write fast rush programs in this variant because they can't safely move fast enough
22:41:06 <quintopia> okay here's a weird idea for a game-that-totally-isn't-bf-joust: the jousters start with opposite values of zero and opposite flag heights. what A thinks is zero, B thinks is 128, and while A thinks its flag is zeroed, B thinks A's flag is 128. And vice versa.
22:41:42 <ais523> what are the values in between?
22:42:01 <wob_jonas> quintopia: is that just L:TG?
22:42:27 <quintopia> ais523: idunno. maybe they alternate between 64 and -64
22:42:39 <quintopia> or between 128 and 0
22:42:54 <ais523> I think a key strategic point of BF Joust is the fact that a cell without a decoy is very easy to skip past
22:42:56 <wob_jonas> quintopia: in L:TG, the players number slots from the opposite direction, so when you can reference slot 0 the easiest and slot 1 the next easiest, those are harder for your opponent to reference
22:43:15 <quintopia> what is L:TG?
22:43:42 <wob_jonas> quintopia: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Lambda:_the_Gathering
22:45:45 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
22:45:52 <quintopia> oh yeah that is a similar idea
22:47:20 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
22:48:29 <quintopia> ais523: so what if all the cells between are set to 64 or -64 (alternating) but there is a new conditional {} that detects either of those values specifically.
22:49:13 <ais523> it's getting more complex but starting to be maybe viable
22:49:17 <ais523> I still prefer the original game I think though
22:50:05 <ais523> come to think of it, you can just make the in-between cells 64 for both programs, making - for one program the same as + for the other
22:51:16 <wob_jonas> but then you want to think of that as renormalized by shifting all values with -64 and modifying the loop statements
22:51:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
22:52:14 <ais523> wob_jonas: it's basically BF Joust except that the flags start at 64 and you win by changing them to -64
22:52:26 <ais523> actually, come to think of it
22:52:34 <ais523> stealth programs do way too well in this variant
22:52:38 <wob_jonas> ais523: sort of. you also have two extra statements
22:52:48 <ais523> you just set your own flag to look the same as the filler on the tape
22:53:27 <ais523> and the only way the opponent can stop that is by either a fast rush (those things are typically easy to stop), or by adjusting every filler element by 64 to see if it's actually a flag in disguise
22:53:40 <ais523> whereas stealth programs in regular BF Joust have to constantly stay on their flag to avoid losing
22:53:44 <wob_jonas> ais523: no
22:53:50 <wob_jonas> ais523: you still have another statement, don't you?
22:54:02 <wob_jonas> one that tests for exactly the value you have to attain in the goal square
22:54:18 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes
22:54:25 <quintopia> ais523: yeah i was thinking the same about making them all 64, except i would allow both the sieve and kettle polarities. there shouldn't be a way to tell the difference between polarity and flag height by testing
22:54:31 <ais523> but that still takes 128 cycles
22:54:59 <ais523> quintopia: the only reason sieve and kettle exist is so that players don't have to write their programs both ways round to see which is better
22:55:12 <ais523> in retrospect, it'd have worked better to start flags at 100 or so and break the symmetry that way
22:55:19 <wob_jonas> oh by the way
22:56:16 <quintopia> ais523: oh but they do so much more than that. it makes it so you have to optimize your program to work best on the sum of both polarities rather than just one of the two
22:56:27 <wob_jonas> I was thinking about games that are both multiplayer classic german-style board games, but at the same time their visible state can be written in a small enough space that you could play them easily in IRC with an IRC bot handling the game rules but only ordinary IRC clients on the player's side
22:56:34 <wob_jonas> some classical card games are technically like that
22:56:50 <ais523> wob_jonas: also, their hidden state needs to be player-specific
22:56:55 <quintopia> i have played such games
22:56:55 <wob_jonas> whereas games with rectangular boards typically aren't like that
22:57:06 <quintopia> IRC board games
22:57:08 <wob_jonas> because you need to draw a large rectangular board that's hard to put in one irc line
22:57:08 <ais523> like, it's hard to do something like poker over IRC if you only have one deck
22:57:20 <ais523> because how do you stop people drawing the same cards as each other?
22:57:59 <wob_jonas> ais523: the irc bot can handle the hidden state, but it's even better to have games where there's no state hidden from jus