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06:02:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Msully4321 * New user account
06:06:03 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66408&oldid=66386 * Msully4321 * (+200) introduction
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06:07:17 <kmc> i've been quoted
06:07:37 <esowiki> [[Wikiplia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66409&oldid=56754 * Msully4321 * (+120) add a link to the wikiplia source code
06:09:33 <int-e> kmc: I hate it when that happens.
06:19:56 <kmc> i think most of my quotes here are not too embarrassing
06:20:06 <kmc> though i'm sure if you went through the logs you could find loads of embarrassing things i've said
06:20:17 <lambdabot> I'm glad I'm not Brezhnev. Being the Russian leader in the Kremlin. You never know if someone's tape recording what you say.
06:20:38 <kmc> perfect choice, lambdabot
06:23:24 <kmc> i think my #haskell quotes are probably more embarrassing
06:23:28 <kmc> @quote kmc
06:23:39 <kmc> ok that one's pretty good
06:24:26 <lambdabot> int-e says: C++ does make a reasonably usable high-level assembler
06:25:04 <int-e> Oh that... I still agree with.
06:26:49 <lambdabot> oerjan says: surprisingly, Cale is not a lambdabot command. afaik he may even be human.
06:27:38 <lambdabot> Cale says: Basically, we've known how to implement first class functions efficiently for 20 or 30 years now, and we've known about their importance to abstraction in programming since before the
06:27:38 <lambdabot> advent of electronic computers. There's no excuse to still be writing new programs in languages without them.
06:28:21 <int-e> . o O ( This demonstrates a severe lack of creativity when coming up with excuses. )
06:29:21 <lambdabot> dmhouse says: elisp is the PHP of the Lisp world.
06:29:54 * oerjan finds himself starting to whistle stars and stripes forever
06:30:18 <oerjan> the strange thing is i can only do that unconsciously
06:30:23 <int-e> oerjan: now why does that remind me of Duke Nukem
06:30:35 <kmc> @quote kmc
06:30:36 <lambdabot> kmc says: "Haskell is great, because Curry-Howard! Proving things in the type system. We can prove that, uh, Ints exist, unless they're ⊥."
06:31:13 <kmc> ^ the kind of cringe i was expecting
06:31:13 <oerjan> because whenever i try to whistle it consciously, i can only remember the 2nd and 3rd movements
06:31:16 <kmc> i'm not wrong though
06:32:06 <oerjan> int-e: also i don't know, i've never played duke nukem
06:33:10 <oerjan> cringily correct, the best kind of correct
06:34:18 <int-e> speaking of cringes... "blockchain is essentially a distributed state machine"
06:36:09 <int-e> (from https://heise.de/-4514954 (in german))
06:36:42 <oerjan> => universe = quantum blockchain
06:37:32 <int-e> at least they come to the conclusion that there aren't any convincing use cases for blockchain technology in the context they're considering (namely, in combination with microservices). (bzzzzzt!)
06:37:54 <int-e> oerjan: It's all reversible, right?
06:40:56 <int-e> Needless to say I completely disagree with that mental model... a ledger only incidentally keeps track of a current state; its purpose is to be a record of history.
06:49:33 <int-e> . o O ( `le/rn password//The password of the month is up for grabs. )
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06:56:46 <int-e> (Assuming the question is about this channel.)
06:57:54 * int-e wonders where gitlogger logs to (if the place is public we should mention it in the topic)
06:59:43 <int-e> Or maybe it's not logging the channel but logging other sources on the channel? Who knows.
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07:11:47 <kmc> we're all bots here
07:13:08 <kmc> int-e: I think you can just as easily say that a ledger exists incidentally as a form of distributed consensus about a current state
07:13:23 <kmc> but perhaps there is some context to your statement that I am missing
07:13:26 <oerjan> kspalaiologos: at one time there were 10% bots, but i think there are fewer now
07:14:27 <kmc> 🤖 beep boop 🤖
07:14:50 <kmc> @quote robot
07:14:50 <lambdabot> byorgey says: now we have the pig operator <^(++)^> as well as the robot monkey operator (:[])
07:14:56 <kmc> @quote bot
07:14:56 <lambdabot> rwbarton says: also, a generally safe answer to "was there an update to lambdabot recently" is "no"
07:15:29 <oerjan> admittedly there are also fewer users overall
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07:17:23 <int-e> kmc: I want to distinguish a ledger from a mere database
07:17:40 <oerjan> ok there are 7 nicks i know are bots, as well as 2 that look suspiciously like bots, so there _may_ be 10%
07:18:27 <oerjan> ok gitlogger is a bot, and i'm unsure about diginet
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07:46:34 <esowiki> [[AlphaBeta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66410&oldid=65916 * Kritixilithos * (+645) turing completeness
07:48:16 <kspalaiologos> I'm making a bot mirroring the IRC logs for a few servers
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07:56:28 <cpressey> Good morning and happy October. Say I have a semi-Thue grammar with the following property: for every word w, it is not possible to derive w in zero or more steps starting from w. Can such a grammar be Turing-complete?
07:57:22 <cpressey> (This is an attempt to put "Is there a language without NOP and in which it is not possible to build a NOP?" on a more rigorous basis.)
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08:12:04 -!- int-e has set topic: IOCCC winners are denounced; early July 2019 still pending definition | Welcome to the international center for esoteric programming language design, development, and deployment! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/.
08:14:42 <wib_jonas> kspalaiologos: more bots than users => it's hard to tell, we have a lot of irc connections of whom we know nothing
08:15:00 <wib_jonas> probably not though, because most of the bots are users
08:26:28 <wib_jonas> also, since I keep announcing these, even though there's no formal *list , https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/throne-eldraine-update-bulletin-2019-09-27 Throne of Eldraine Update Bulletin (M:tG)
08:29:19 <wib_jonas> `fetch share/mtg/MagicCompRules_20191004.txt https://media.wizards.com/2019/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020191004.txt
08:29:21 <HackEso> 2019-10-01 08:29:20 URL:https://media.wizards.com/2019/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020191004.txt [741298/741298] -> "share/mtg/MagicCompRules_20191004.txt" [1]
08:31:51 <wib_jonas> `` set -e; cd share/mtg; tr -d \\\\r <MagicCompRules_20191004.txt > rules.txt
08:33:12 <wib_jonas> `` set -e; cd share/mtg; grep Arbor rules.txt
08:34:15 <wib_jonas> `` set -e; cd share/mtg; tr -d \\r <MagicCompRules_20191004.txt > rules.txt
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08:34:46 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd share/mtg; cat rules.txt
08:34:47 <HackEso> Magic: The Gathering Comprehensive Rules \ \ These rules are effective as of October 4, 2019. \ \ Introduction \ \ This document is the ultimate authority for Magic: The Gathering® competitive game play. It consists of a series of numbered rules followed by a glossary. Many of the numbered rules are divided into subrules, and each separate rule and subrule of the game has its own number. (Note that subrules skip the letters “l” and “o” du
08:35:42 <wib_jonas> note: I accidentally stripped "r" and "\\" characters rather than "\r" characters, so the "\r" characters remain, and those make HackEso truncate the output. I wonder if any wisdom has one.
08:35:47 <HackEso> HackEso is almost but not quite unlike HackEgo.
08:35:52 <HackEso> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in all Mexico!
08:35:53 <HackEso> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
08:37:24 <HackEso> cat: /etc/passwd: No such file or directory
08:38:20 <HackEso> bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ dash \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ domainname \ echo \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ findmnt \ fuser \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ journalctl \ kill \ less \ lessecho \ lessfile \ lesskey \ lesspipe \ ln \ login \ loginctl \ ls \ lsblk \ mkdir \ mknod \ mktemp \ more \ mou
08:38:40 <wib_jonas> HackEso has a bunch of commands idiosyncratic to this community, some of them we use a lot
08:39:17 <HackEso> a.out \ bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ f \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ izash.c \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quinor \ quotes \ share \ src \ test2 \ testfile \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
08:39:21 <wib_jonas> some of them have long descriptions in the wisdom database, which you can access with the ? command , or short descriptions in the whatis database
08:39:25 <HackEso> ` is the prefix to greatness.
08:39:31 <HackEso> ` is the prefix to greatness.
08:39:37 <wib_jonas> hmm, that doesn't quite explain it
08:39:55 <HackEso> Sources for HackEgo can be found at https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot + https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/multibot + https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/umlbox . Sources for HackEso can be found at https://bitbucket.org/fizzie/hackbot + https://bitbucket.org/fizzie/multibot + https://bitbucket.org/fizzie/umlbox .
08:40:13 <wib_jonas> but most of the magic is in the commands itself, which you can usually read directly from the commands in bin
08:40:32 <wib_jonas> 'bin/``' runs a shell command, so typing '```' invokes that
08:40:58 <HackEso> ``(1hackeso) - run shell command
08:41:08 <HackEso> `(1hackeso) - run shell command using New Zealand locale
08:41:16 <kspalaiologos> I don't want anyone bashing me for slacking in work :d
08:41:36 <wib_jonas> the New Zealand locale is actually the default for everything, and the double backtick command unsets it
08:41:52 <wib_jonas> kspalaiologos: what bot uses perl?
08:42:38 <wib_jonas> `perl -efor(1..7) print $_**2," " # HackEso has a perl interpreter installed
08:42:39 <HackEso> syntax error at -e line 1, near ") print" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
08:42:47 <wib_jonas> `perl -efor(1..7) { print $_**2," " }
08:43:29 <wib_jonas> also a python3 interpreter, a ruby interpreter, a javascript node.js interpreter, a prolog interpreter, a C compiler, an sqlite3 interpreter, and more
08:43:38 <kspalaiologos> I quite like perl and enjoy it over other scripting languages
08:43:38 <wib_jonas> kspalaiologos: yes, that's probably why this has a perl too
08:44:01 <wib_jonas> there's also perlbot, which is a fork of buubot, and can run perl commands
08:44:18 <wib_jonas> kspalaiologos: this is #esoteric , we experiment with languages even when they're weird
08:44:24 <myname> kspalaiologos: as the evil twin of perl, i have to dislike it
08:44:38 <wib_jonas> what? you're the evil twin of perl?
08:44:51 <wib_jonas> I think so, but it's not in this channel. let me test
08:44:56 <myname> wib_jonas: i fail to remember how to trigger factoids
08:45:09 <wib_jonas> try /msg perlbot echo hello, world
08:45:44 <myname> everytime i think about how perl is as old as me, something makes me dislike it even more
08:45:47 <kspalaiologos> Has it got disk quotas/execution quotas and memory quotas?
08:45:59 <wib_jonas> myname: I dislike perl, but for different reasons
08:46:27 <myname> wib_jonas: there are plenty of reasons, but a bunch of those is related to its age
08:47:12 <wib_jonas> zzo38: M:tG stuff above, you probably already know
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09:51:36 <HackEso> myname is not your name. You don't know what they are doing. Or you are doing. Or am I? He is Perl's evil twin brother.
09:55:21 <HackEso> The password of the month is ninjaed.
09:56:04 <arseniiv> `learn The password of the month is not what it seems
09:56:10 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is not what it seems
09:58:36 <int-e> arseniiv: https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-10-01.html#lcb ;-)
10:00:54 <wib_jonas> ``` hg cat -r 11684 wisdom/password | perl -e'print substr(<STDIN>,0,34)'
10:00:55 <HackEso> The password of the month is "over
10:01:16 <arseniiv> int-e: I couldn’t logread, what if oerjan sneaked on me; also my password was in priority as it would someday be discovered anyway, it’s so simple, so I couldn’t not set it today, no way
10:02:03 <int-e> arseniiv: You mean this was all premediated? Can't argue with that.
10:02:17 <int-e> (Though I do enjoy the illusion of free will.)
10:02:23 <arseniiv> was, was, this is in the logs somewhere even
10:03:54 <myname> i am tempted to make some kind of website where the password to enter is actually the password of the month as registered in the bot
10:04:14 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: yeah, it's tricky because two people may try to set the password at close to the same moment. it may be best to use HackEso's atomic write capability and use a command that updates the password only if the $(hg log -T {rev} -l 1 wisdom/password) is what you expect
10:05:01 <arseniiv> int-e: https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-09-01.html#ljd
10:05:41 <arseniiv> wib_jonas: I’ll hope we all are too slow for a coincidence to happen for the next 23 passwords at least
10:06:47 <int-e> we could make a co-ordinated effort.
10:07:24 <arseniiv> hm it occurred to me while I wrote but I hoped still
10:08:05 <arseniiv> at least hopefully there will be no ordinated co-efforts, whatever this could be
10:08:51 <int-e> arseniiv: is this leading up to a co-worker joke
10:14:53 <arseniiv> int-e: hm depends on what it is, I hadn’t heard it
10:16:29 <arseniiv> when I eat rice I remember a Bashō haiku https://matsuobashohaiku.home.blog/2019/04/12/gazing-at-morning-glories-eating-breakfast-basho/ though I have yet to do it at dawn, and eating it with butter as I do certainly shouldn’t count
10:17:28 <arseniiv> also prior to this, I didn’t know the history behind that one
10:17:47 <arseniiv> even the history behind any of them at all
10:25:23 <int-e> arseniiv: a worker is somebody who labours diligently and gets things done. a co-worker is ...
10:26:03 <int-e> arseniiv: and that connects to "co-efforts" :)
10:39:43 <kspalaiologos> What is the best way to compress base64 data with repetitive, incrementing characters?
10:41:05 <kspalaiologos> It's not like there will be such patterns all over the file and they might not appear at all
10:43:17 <cpressey> kspalaiologos: I don't know about "best" but if there are incrementing sequences, you could replace each character with the difference between it and the previous character, getting long strings of 1's, which should compress well
10:44:35 <kspalaiologos> As characters get incremented, in case of ABCD I can compress it to A and ascii(3)
10:44:55 <kspalaiologos> Then I could apply burrows-wheeler transform to it and pack it using PPMd
10:45:35 <kspalaiologos> And the downside is, no sequences longer than 32 characters.
10:54:36 <wib_jonas> kspalaiologos: turn it to a pixel graphics where you store one character per pixel, in indexed mode, PNG compress it. PNG handles repetitive differences well because one of the approx five pixels automatically does that difference thing, and some png writers can choose the right filter automatically. just be careful, PNG has a tradeoff between
10:54:37 <wib_jonas> large file and slow compression versus small file and slower compression
10:54:48 <wib_jonas> you can change the compression speed with magic options to the PNG encoder
10:55:26 <wib_jonas> PNG compression is usually lossless
10:56:01 <wib_jonas> also, use grayscale 8-bit rather than indexed
10:56:36 <wib_jonas> that said, even any ordinary compressor would work fine on such data
10:56:42 <wib_jonas> PNG is probably an overcomplication
10:57:27 <wib_jonas> I wonder how you even get increasing sequences in base64 though
10:57:30 <myname> that#s a funny idea, though
10:57:53 <myname> ugh, switching between keyboard layouts always shows somehow
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11:45:10 <kspalaiologos> I managed to compress 50MB of this stuff to 1MB, but I'm still a bit disappointed
11:45:26 <kspalaiologos> And the place where I may accept it is around 30KB
11:46:11 <myname> a factor of 1000 is quite something to ask for
11:47:03 <kspalaiologos> I can toss you a sample when I'm home, or probably even now
11:47:26 <kspalaiologos> github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/codegolf-submissions and find there 7z compressed file
11:50:10 <wib_jonas> kspalaiologos: I seem to remember that SE has increased the limit on the size of post contents, but I can't recall if it's increased it _to_ 30 kilobytes or _from_ 30 kilobytes
11:51:34 <wib_jonas> I am also an active user, but only reached the limit with my own post once, and know of like a handful of other nodes that are long enough for that
11:53:15 <wib_jonas> I think the limit was 32 kilobyte when I posted https://scifi.meta.stackexchange.com/q/10266 , which was in 2016-10
11:57:21 <wib_jonas> wait, I had a data.stackexchange.com query for this
11:58:39 <wib_jonas> https://data.stackexchange.com/scifi/query/951529/longest-answers
12:05:40 <int-e> kspalaiologos: is there any information on what this data *is*?
12:07:58 <wib_jonas> yeah, if you know what the data is supposed to be, you might be able to write a better specific compressor
12:30:17 <wib_jonas> I am informed that that query is wrong, it looks at the length of the rendered HTML, not of the source code of the post.
12:39:08 <kspalaiologos> int-e: it's base-64 encoded sequence of six distinct characters with their ascii value equal to the original value plus their position, so AAAA is actually ABCD (i can't tweak this encoding)
12:41:33 <kspalaiologos> The most frequent is encoding of character o, which base equivalent is actually B (for illustrative purposes, I've started with A before, hence the inconsistency)
13:08:15 <wib_jonas> kspalaiologos: I don't really understand what you're saying
13:09:08 <wib_jonas> is the offset always added to the character? if so, just subtract it, compare it that way, then add it back when you decompress
13:09:21 <int-e> also the surface encoding isn't so interesting... does the ooooi/** stuff have any meaning?
13:09:43 <wib_jonas> int-e: perhaps they're malbolge instructions
13:11:18 <int-e> That makes sense. Is it the Malbolge Malbolge interpreter?
13:12:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66411&oldid=62750 * Akangka * (+792) /* Pushing 1 deterministically is impossible. */ new section
13:13:32 <int-e> kspalaiologos: If so, your best bet for compression should be to golf the toolchain that produces the malbolge program.
13:14:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66412&oldid=66411 * Akangka * (+81) /* Pushing 1 deterministically is impossible. */
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13:24:29 <kspalaiologos> Highly optimized and handwritten programs I made are only 66 percent smaller than my toolchain
13:35:40 <int-e> I didn't mean to golf the output.
13:35:45 <int-e> I meant the toolchain itself.
13:36:57 <int-e> (I'm assuming that your intent is to post a program whose output is a malbolge malbolge interpreter, because the latter is just too big.)
13:40:44 <esowiki> [[Stable]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66413 * Akangka * (+1499) Created page with "[[Stable]] is an [[esoteric programming language]] that can push only zeroes. The only way to get nonzero number is to preserve the initial stack. This language is inspired by..."
13:51:32 <esowiki> [[Stable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66414&oldid=66413 * Akangka * (+786)
13:53:35 <esowiki> [[Stable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66415&oldid=66414 * Akangka * (-896)
14:10:38 * cpressey now wonders if there's an interactive OS shell based on K
14:16:07 <int-e> kspalaiologos: so that you get a small-ish program that generates the huge malbolge program you wanted to compress.
14:17:06 <int-e> Note that this is a form of compression, really.
14:17:52 <int-e> (well I'm making some assumptions about the complexity of the toolchain)
14:21:36 <wib_jonas> or just post the thing on an external site, like github, and link to it
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14:47:39 * cpressey wants to glob files with some kind of twisted list comprehension thing instead of boring *.?yz syntax
14:48:56 <myname> [file | file <- files, file `matches` "*.?yz"]
14:49:46 * cpressey selects all files whose names contain Pythagorean triples
14:50:30 <myname> because you name your porn like this?
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14:56:24 <wib_jonas> `python3 -cimport os,re;print(sorted([e.name for e in os.scandir("wisdom") if re.fullmatch(r"c.*io.",e.name)])) # cpressey: does this help?
14:56:24 <HackEso> ['cat elimination', 'cat introduction', 'ciol', 'cipation', 'citation', 'civilization', 'communication', 'composition', 'cut elimination']
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14:59:52 <cpressey> It's a bit verbose, but it'll do for now
15:00:27 <wib_jonas> cpressey: um, you don't want to do boring *.?yz syntax, but you want something concise?
15:00:49 <wib_jonas> try all the tricks that zsh or modern bash offers in writing complicated globs
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15:03:25 <myname> i prefer haskell list comprehension syntax ofer pythons
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15:09:28 <wib_jonas> ``` python3 -c$'def n(e):return e.name\ndef c(n):return re.fullmatch(r".*ou?r",n,re.I)\nimport os,re;print(sorted(filter(c,map(n,os.scandir("wisdom")))))'
15:09:29 <HackEso> ['applicative functor', 'cocoonspirator', 'codoctor', 'color', 'colour', 'coonspirator', 'coulor', 'endofunctor', 'eor', 'functor', 'gregor', 'ior', 'mirror', 'off by two error', 'or', 'postfridgerator', 'prefrigerator', 'racoonspirator', 'space elevator', 'supermarioperator', 'tarator', 'the most hideous cacophony in g minor', 'word salad detector', 'xor']
15:09:42 <wib_jonas> cpressey: ^ how about if you don't use comprehensions at all?
15:12:14 <wib_jonas> ``` python3 -c$'import os,re;r=[]\nfor e in os.scandir("wisdom"):\n n=e.name\n if re.fullmatch(r".*ou?r",n,re.I):r.append(n)\nprint(sorted(r))'
15:12:15 <HackEso> ['applicative functor', 'cocoonspirator', 'codoctor', 'color', 'colour', 'coonspirator', 'coulor', 'endofunctor', 'eor', 'functor', 'gregor', 'ior', 'mirror', 'off by two error', 'or', 'postfridgerator', 'prefrigerator', 'racoonspirator', 'space elevator', 'supermarioperator', 'tarator', 'the most hideous cacophony in g minor', 'word salad detector', 'xor']
15:12:39 <wib_jonas> ^ though it's the easiest if you don't even use those fancy higher order functions that functional programmers like so much
15:12:45 <wib_jonas> and just write straightforward loops
15:13:29 <esowiki> [[Resource]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66416&oldid=66394 * A * (+37)
15:16:31 <cpressey> > let n = 10 in [show a ++ "." ++ show b ++ "." ++ show c ++ ".txt" | a <- [1..n], b <- [1..n], c <- [1..n], a*a+b*b == c*c]
15:16:34 <lambdabot> ["3.4.5.txt","4.3.5.txt","6.8.10.txt","8.6.10.txt"]
15:18:40 <wib_jonas> cpressey: um, but didn't you mean to grep existing files?
15:20:50 <cpressey> Wow wib_jonas, you make it sound like I have an actual problem I need to solve.
15:22:48 <wib_jonas> ``` python3 -c$'for x in range(1,6):\n for y in range(1,x):print("%d.%d.%d.txt"%(x**2-y**2,2*x*y,x**2+y**2))'
15:22:49 <HackEso> 3.4.5.txt \ 8.6.10.txt \ 5.12.13.txt \ 15.8.17.txt \ 12.16.20.txt \ 7.24.25.txt \ 24.10.26.txt \ 21.20.29.txt \ 16.30.34.txt \ 9.40.41.txt
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15:34:03 <Taneb> For some reason I keep thinking J is postfix
15:34:11 <Taneb> Possibly I confuse it with dc
15:34:17 <HackEso> dc: Could not open file 3 83*p
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15:52:00 <esowiki> [[Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66417&oldid=66104 * A * (+538) /* Implementations */ A pastebin will expire at anytime, and I want to delete my GitHub repos.
15:53:19 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: A la prochaine.).
15:54:06 <esowiki> [[Owk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66418&oldid=62163 * A * (+51) /* External Resources */ Copy everything from GitHub repo to wiki. I am deleting my repo.
15:54:49 <esowiki> [[Owk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66419&oldid=66418 * A * (+4863) /* External Resources */ I was dumb
15:57:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66420&oldid=66412 * A * (+308) /* Pushing 1 deterministically is impossible. */
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17:06:54 <rain2> good idea to try burrows wheeler
17:07:43 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: try with a modern compressor like xz or 7z
17:08:12 <kspalaiologos> and doesn't mean, I've used it to perform the test
17:08:28 <kspalaiologos> WinRAR can't pack 7zip archives, and in the attached screenshot you see clearly, that I'm using 7zip
17:08:59 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: I didn't look at the screenshot. did you try 7zip compression with the -mx=7 setting for slower but better compression?
17:10:29 <kspalaiologos> how can you tell I'm using ancient compressor without looking at the screenshot?
17:11:01 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: because you said "PPMd beaten by BWT/BZIP2 hybrid" and BZIP2 is the somewhat old compressor
17:11:06 <b_jonas> I wouldn't call it ancient, I'm not that young
17:11:35 <kspalaiologos> BZIP used Burrows Wheeler Transform, therefore I recalled BZIP
17:12:14 <kspalaiologos> I tried with PPMd, tried with LZMA2, but with a tiny bit worse results.
17:13:03 <b_jonas> I guess what remains is to compress it in some reasonable way and host it somewhere outside of code golf
17:13:21 <b_jonas> though how something such large is a reasonable answer to a code golf problem I don't understand
17:13:36 <kspalaiologos> I guess I shouldnt worry that much about my program size
17:13:43 <kspalaiologos> because there are more important matters right now
17:14:02 <kspalaiologos> like the fact that the program just eats entire memory available to the system
17:14:19 <kspalaiologos> (but I'm certain that it has to work, if it had unlimited memory)
17:17:17 <b_jonas> you can have your client ignore them
17:17:38 <kspalaiologos> because I want to know certain people that log in/log out
17:17:51 <kspalaiologos> but on the other hand, I don't want to see all that spam lol
17:18:06 <b_jonas> hide but have the computer remember it
17:18:44 <kspalaiologos> and I don't really want to switch, because I've got a couple of plugins written in Tcl and Perl here
17:19:01 <kspalaiologos> and I don't really think my client allows doing so, because I've just checked the settings
17:19:02 <b_jonas> can't that show a list of nicks who are joined into the channel in a sidebar?
17:19:23 <kspalaiologos> but it's neat to know the certain point they join or leave
17:19:26 <b_jonas> or add a transparent irc proxy in between that tracks the users separately if you're feeling more adventurous
17:19:53 <kspalaiologos> I like dissipating my time on not-so-practical things
17:20:12 <kspalaiologos> I've got more interesting not-so-practical things to do xd
17:20:56 <kspalaiologos> I just don't know how it works and I change randomly the magic numbers
17:25:03 <HackEso> 0: 67 48 8d 3d 00 00 00 00 lea 0x0(%eip),%rdi # 0x8
17:25:13 <shachaf> Will this move the lower 32 bits of rip into rdi?
17:27:55 <b_jonas> I don't understand how that's even a valid encoding
17:28:03 <b_jonas> I don't know how those crazy prefixes work
17:29:17 <shachaf> `asm addr32; lea (%rip), %rdi
17:29:18 <HackEso> 0: 67 48 8d 3d 00 00 00 00 lea 0x0(%eip),%rdi # 0x8
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20:12:21 <b_jonas> Let's say I have a schema like CREATE TABLE cat(cid INTEGER PRIMARY KEY, cname); CREATE TABLE human(oid INTEGER PRIMARY KEY, cid, date, type, weight, FOREIGN KEY(cid) REFERENCES cat(cid));
20:12:54 <b_jonas> one cat can have more than one owner
20:13:59 <b_jonas> I want to group the type 0 owners by cat, something like SELECT h.oid, h.cid FROM human AS h WHERE 0 = h.type GROUP BY h.cid;
20:14:33 <b_jonas> and in each group (i.e. for each cat), I want to find the owner with the largest date, and join those owners with the cat
20:14:41 <b_jonas> what's the sane way to do that?
20:16:35 <b_jonas> I also want to filter the results to those rows where the latest owner has a weight larger than 50
20:27:37 <b_jonas> wait wait... so the four main face buttons on both Nintendo controllers and Xbox contrllers are both labelled (A,B,X,Y), but in a different order, where Xbox buttons (A,B,X,Y) correspond to Nintendo buttons (B,A,Y,X)? (And the Nintendo B button corresponds to the Playstation X button, just to make it even crazier.)
20:27:55 <b_jonas> how did Xbox end up with a conflicting convention for naming the buttons?
20:29:29 <olsner> not sure how "good" it'll run, but something like a nested (SELECT stuff FROM human WHERE h.cid=cat.cid ORDER BY date DESC LIMIT 1) (where cat.cid is selected by the outside query) is at least an easily understandable way to get the last owner per cat
20:29:55 <b_jonas> I mean, doesn't the SNES with its four buttons easily predate any microsoft game console?
20:30:22 <b_jonas> olsner: oh yeah, I didn't tell the catch
20:30:39 <b_jonas> but even without that, it's a bit tricky with the subquery
20:31:19 <b_jonas> you need like doubly nested subqueries or something
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20:34:05 <olsner> apparently that max-in-group problem is so common it has its own tag on stack overflow https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/greatest-n-per-group
20:36:25 <b_jonas> let me intersect that with whatever is the tag for MS SQL
20:37:10 <b_jonas> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/sql-server apparently
20:38:43 <b_jonas> hmm, apparently all the ways to do it in MS SQL are ugly
20:41:08 <b_jonas> they link me to https://kristiannielsen.livejournal.com/6745.html
20:42:07 <b_jonas> note though that some of the solutions there won't work if multiple owners can have the same date. I want to choose just one owner in that case.
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21:06:32 <arseniiv> am I getting it right that Idris has algebraic effects and uses them instead monads, too?
21:07:25 <arseniiv> I got to re-reading an article about that and this time it reads clearer
21:17:08 <arseniiv> hm it doesn’t seem to have “handlers for normal return”
21:17:18 <shachaf> this oolong tea is tea gea
21:18:05 <arseniiv> shachaf: it has an interesting taste, yeah
21:18:27 <shachaf> I mean, this specific one that I'm drinking.
21:18:34 <shachaf> I think it also has some amount of ginseng extract.
21:19:01 <shachaf> It modifies my mouth so that other things taste sweeter.
21:20:24 <arseniiv> mhm I ate something with that property I think, maybe berries
21:21:05 <shachaf> Yes, there are those berries that make sour things taste sweet, but this is quite different.
21:22:14 <imode> https://hatebin.com/dqswcbuhwd work-in-progress expression evaluator.
21:22:26 <imode> for those of us who like prefix as opposed to postfix.
21:22:31 <HackEso> Tea is concentrated fuel made by distilling occult herbs in a silver alambic. Americans attempted to reduce its potency by dumping some in the Ocean.
21:23:17 <b_jonas> imode: try Integ if you like prefix with lots of extra parenthesis
21:23:57 <imode> really this is just to make my life a little easier in terms of evaluating expressions. I'm intending on implementing parameter extraction after that.
21:24:16 <imode> so you can write stuff like ? 5 to specify the 5th parameter after the expression.
21:24:24 <imode> benefits of having a queue based language.
21:25:25 <imode> downsides are that on some malformed expressions, you can infloop.
21:26:34 <arseniiv> ah, I remember and see from the article’s conclusion that effects, at the moment article’s written, are an experimental extension
21:28:20 <arseniiv> authors note effects can’t cover continuations but I found another article claiming there’s a way, apparently if extending what we define an algebraic effect framework to be, I hadn’t read that one yet
21:29:25 <arseniiv> so maybe Idris authors would be able to tinker with their effect module and incorporate continuations? Though anyway I hadn’t used them yet in that explicit sense in any language
21:32:37 <arseniiv> re. tea: my dictionary says there’s no “alambic” and I think it should be “alembic”?
21:34:33 <imode> https://hatebin.com/qqqkghwhsh the quadratic formula.
21:35:21 <arseniiv> BTW couldn’t someone explain call-by-push-value? Those guys use it
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21:41:05 <imode> it's strictly postfix. no parens needed.
21:41:56 <arseniiv> hm would you like to implement infix, with precedences? :D
21:42:18 <imode> hah! perhaps. queue elements are either single elements or two elements.
21:42:35 <imode> the operators, which are single elements, could be ordered in accordance with precedence. :P
21:45:07 <arseniiv> queue elements are either single elements or two elements. => yeah it looks like you could write an interpreter of expressions with arbitrary value constructors, it would just need some abstraction of concrete predicates like `is-multiplication?` and an arity function
21:45:53 <arseniiv> maybe you need a macro system?
21:46:15 <imode> pretty much where I was headed to, yeah. I plan on allowing the language to edit its own source.
21:47:28 <arseniiv> hm I’d not call that a *macro* system :P or I thought about not the source you meant
21:48:04 <arseniiv> happy algebraic effects day everyone bye
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21:54:38 <imode> ah crap, when revising more? to not infloop, I forgot to include markers...
21:54:48 <imode> a "final result" should look like ( # <number> )
21:56:09 <imode> though in the case of misaligned or extra numbers, there should be a scan through the expression to check and see if there's operators present...
21:57:07 <imode> a better way to do this would be to check if we've scanned through the expression, done nothing but roll, and then once we reset the cursor, check if we've done any work.
21:57:31 <imode> if we haven't, remove the ending markers, strip away the operators and number separators, you're done.
22:08:58 <imode> what's interesting is that you can do something like...
22:10:58 <imode> ( *' # 2 # 5 ) ( +' # 3 ? 0 ) ! !
22:33:29 <imode> which basically evaluates one expression, reserves the result in the queue, and then evaluates the other, but because of the layout of the queue, the latter expression uses the result (via ? 0).
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01:04:45 <oerjan> <wib_jonas> note: I accidentally stripped "r" and "\\" characters rather than "\r" characters, so the "\r" characters remain, and those make HackEso truncate the output. I wonder if any wisdom has one. <-- i vaguely think we removed some of those from wisdom at one point
01:19:07 <esowiki> [[Resource]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66421&oldid=66416 * A * (+226) /* Salary program */ Draft a proper Quine program (add a cheating quine just for the sake of competeness)
01:33:14 <esowiki> [[List of quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66422&oldid=62106 * A * (+314) /* Real Quines */
01:33:50 <esowiki> [[List of quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66423&oldid=66422 * A * (+1) /* =Resource */ Whoops a typo
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01:37:19 <esowiki> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66424&oldid=66423 * A * (+29) Well, pick out a self-referential cheating quine and add a quine (a placeholder)
01:38:54 <esowiki> [[List of quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66425&oldid=66424 * A * (+511) /* Keg */ Fill in the placeholder
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02:09:08 <imode> https://hatebin.com/opaqukmqhr added variable fetching.
02:09:12 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66426&oldid=62820 * A * (+3) /* Volatile instruction minimalization */
02:12:51 <int-e> oerjan: Oh communication with the Pa'anuri may be just around the corner.
02:26:12 <esowiki> [[Resource]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66427&oldid=66421 * A * (+257) /* Useful Instructions (I am not sure whether they are useful in restricted source contests though) */
02:29:53 <esowiki> [[Resource]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66428&oldid=66427 * A * (+419) /* Idea */
02:31:48 <esowiki> [[Resource]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66429&oldid=66428 * A * (+139) /* Idea */
02:32:49 <esowiki> [[Resource]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66430&oldid=66429 * A * (+52) /* Idea */
03:17:23 <HackEso> Tea is concentrated fuel made by distilling occult herbs in a silver alambic. Americans attempted to reduce its potency by dumping some in the Ocean.
03:20:32 <oerjan> arseniiv: ah it's the french spelling
03:20:59 <oerjan> well that's how this started...
03:21:24 <shachaf> This is green tea, not oolong.
03:28:05 <esowiki> [[Resource]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66431&oldid=66430 * A * (+717) Put my submission here (feel free to steal it)
03:28:38 <int-e> object oriented spaghetti code?
03:56:31 <esowiki> [[Resource]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66432&oldid=66431 * A * (+154) /* Idea */
03:57:44 <esowiki> [[Resource]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66433&oldid=66432 * A * (+102) /* Idea */
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04:47:46 <esowiki> [[Resource]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66434&oldid=66433 * A * (+38) /* Cat program */
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05:03:55 <HackEso> 1/2:free//A free structure is one that has no nontrivial identities, except algebraist phrase that in a much fancier way with morphisms. \ patent//Patent is an adjective which means that something is painfully obvious. Often used to rightfully mock people that do not see it. \ vacuum tube//After the London terrorist attacks of 2005, the Underground was completely evacuated. Without air resistance, the trains would go at blazingly fast speeds between
05:04:08 <HackEso> 2/2: the terminals. This is called a vacuum tube. Sadly, current technology doesn't let passengers travel that way. \ misspellings of croissant//misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ gey//I know nothing about Gey, sir.
05:04:33 <shachaf> Golly. I never heard it phrased quite that way before.
05:05:42 <lambdabot> shachaf says: i they are so love easy threads
05:06:43 <shachaf> Does "every vector space is free" just mean "every vector space has no nontrivial identities"?
05:08:04 <int-e> hrm, what does that even mean. is this an attempt to say "every vector space has a basis" and sound categorical?
05:12:18 <shachaf> Yes, "has a basis" means "is free".
05:12:33 <shachaf> Or perhaps the other way around.
05:13:00 <shachaf> I think it's a pretty good perspective and not just categorical mumbo jumbo?
05:13:08 <shachaf> (Obviously it's also categorical mumbo jumbo.)
05:13:18 <int-e> "free" has too many meanings
05:13:58 <int-e> So I don't appreciate using it when there's a more precise term.
05:14:47 <shachaf> Aren't they all the same meaning?
05:14:57 <int-e> s/precise/specific/
05:15:21 <shachaf> I think this is one of the few clearly good bits of category things.
05:15:23 <int-e> I don't have to think about what the structure we're completing is when you say "vector space basis".
05:15:39 <shachaf> I'm not saying not to talk about bases.
05:15:39 <int-e> Wheras "free" adds a multitude of degrees of freedom, pun not intended.
05:15:57 <shachaf> But I think the main reason that people like vector spaces so much is that they're free.
05:16:16 <shachaf> If you found another structure where all the things you care about are free, it could be similarly useful.
05:17:16 <shachaf> (You can only express linear maps in terms of matrices and compute with them because vector spaces have bases, of course.)
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05:18:04 <int-e> shachaf: So what if we have a vector space over GF(2)... then v+v = 0 for all vectors v. How is that "free"?
05:20:31 <shachaf> It's free in the category of vector spaces over GF(2), of course.
05:20:40 <shachaf> I guess I should say what "free" means.
05:22:16 <shachaf> "A vector space V is free over a set X" means that for any vector space U, linear maps : V -> U naturally correspond to functions : X -> U
05:23:03 <int-e> So you're free within the confines of a vector space. Yay.
05:23:11 <int-e> (for a fixed field)
05:23:31 <int-e> *and* you've just defined a basis
05:24:01 <shachaf> Yes, "free" means it has a basis.
05:24:28 <shachaf> I think it's pretty reasonable for "free" to be defined with respect to linear maps?
05:24:56 <shachaf> You can take the same definition for groups and group homomorphisms and it'll give you free groups.
05:25:37 <int-e> . o O ( a free abelian group of order 2. )
05:25:51 <shachaf> Or say a free monoid [A] over a set A is one where for any monoid M, monoid homomorphisms : [A] -> M correspond to functions : A -> M
05:27:10 <shachaf> Which just means it's defined elementwise, of course.
05:27:18 <int-e> I guess one source of my dislike is in the statement you started out with
05:27:47 <int-e> "every vector space is free" means that freeness doesn't tell us anything about vector spaces at all. so there's no need to talk or think about it.
05:30:08 <shachaf> But "every vector space has a basis" means the same thing about having a basis.
05:31:04 <shachaf> I'd say that freeness is a property, maybe desirable or maybe not, that you can talk about vector spaces having (as well as many other structures). Then you can prove the theorem that every vector space has this property.
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06:00:31 <HackEso> A vector space is just a module over a field.
06:02:36 <HackEso> A module is like a vector space, except with a ring instead of a field.
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06:59:58 <esowiki> [[Resource]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66435&oldid=66434 * A * (+187) /* I am a palindrome. Are you? */
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07:32:43 <esowiki> [[Resource]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66436&oldid=66435 * A * (+182) /* Cat program */
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08:02:20 <esowiki> [[Resource]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66437&oldid=66436 * A * (+659) /* Cat program */
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08:06:37 <kritixilithos> in case you haven't heard of it, https://www.rule30prize.org/
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08:23:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66438&oldid=66420 * Akangka * (+8) /* Pushing 1 deterministically is impossible. */
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11:35:37 <esowiki> [[This=That]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66439&oldid=57004 * Chris Pressey * (+19) See also also
11:36:14 <esowiki> [[This=That 2.0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66440&oldid=57028 * Chris Pressey * (+14) See also also
11:37:14 <esowiki> [[This=That 2.0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66441&oldid=66440 * Chris Pressey * (+2) bullets
11:38:07 <esowiki> [[This=That 3.0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66442&oldid=57027 * Chris Pressey * (+47) See also
11:39:11 <myname> how many versions are there
11:39:28 <myname> and why doesn't he just extend the first one
11:40:47 <cpressey> I only remembered there being 1, but that was a long time ago. I had a dim memory of there being a Python implementation of it, but I don't see any implementations of any of them.
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11:43:37 <cpressey> 1.0 is by PuzzleHunter84 (in 2009), 2.0 is presumably by PuzzleHunter84 too (also in 2009), 3.0 is presumably by A (in 2018)
11:48:09 <cpressey> I think I must've been thinking of a different language
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11:50:18 <int-e> Oh wow, A is still active...
11:50:40 -!- atslash has joined.
11:50:56 <int-e> (I'm still ignoring A related esowiki messages)
11:51:23 <int-e> (It keeps me sane. Well, saner.)
11:53:15 <myname> somebody with that amount of energy could contribute quite good stuff if he just joined the community
12:10:21 <esowiki> [[This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66443&oldid=66439 * Chris Pressey * (+852) Attempt to describe the evaluation semantics, based on talk page.
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12:12:52 <esowiki> [[This=That]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66444&oldid=66443 * Chris Pressey * (+29) +cat Unimplemented
12:13:59 <ais523_> <cpressey> Good morning and happy October. Say I have a semi-Thue grammar with the following property: for every word w, it is not possible to derive w in zero or more steps starting from w. Can such a grammar be Turing-complete? ← can't you just have every production add a junk element, together with extra productions to swap the junk element to
12:14:00 <ais523_> the end of the memory space?
12:14:31 <ais523_> then a perfect loop is always impossible because there's a total ordering on possible memory spaces that you can never move backwards through, and yet the computational class isn't affected at all
12:19:07 <int-e> Oh I missed an easy string rewriting question with antique terminology ;)
12:19:29 <ais523_> semi-Thue grammars are more interesting than straightforward rewriting
12:19:42 <cpressey> ais523_: Probably. I later thought of it as being equivalent to a Tag system whose queue never shrinks and always eventually grows. I think it can still be TC because you can map a "nop" in the TM to an infinite number of states of the Tag system.
12:19:53 <ais523_> they're nondeterministic in the mathematical sense: whenever there are multiple rewrites possible, they always pick the one that makes the program not halt, if possible
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12:20:32 <ais523_> unfortunately, the esolang Thue derived from them missed that notion of "nondeterministic" and it's been a pain to clarify what's meant ever since
12:20:36 <int-e> ais523_: string rewriting systems *are* semi-Thue systems.
12:20:45 <int-e> With non-determinism and everything.
12:21:01 <ais523_> int-e: well you can have a string-rewriting system with a deterministic rule for where to replace
12:21:09 <ais523_> I think that'd fail to meet the definition of a semi-Thue system
12:21:20 <int-e> ais523_: Sure, that would be imposing a strategy.
12:21:27 <int-e> (a deterministic strategy)
12:21:45 <ais523_> there are probably rewriting systems that are TC with a left-first imposed strategy but sub-TC when evaluated mathematically-nondeterministically
12:22:31 <ais523_> (I remember oerjan's proof that Fractran is sub-TC if you evaluate the program in a random order rather than left to right)
12:23:25 <cpressey> The lambda calculus *per se* doesn't specify a strategy either. To me, it feels a lot less like a programming language that way, a lot more like a proof system.
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12:23:48 <ais523_> typed lambda calculus is confluent
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12:24:01 <int-e> ais523_: Well, when I say "rewriting system" there's no strategy by default.
12:24:02 <ais523_> untyped lambda calculus "feels" confluent to me in some generalized sense, but I'm not sure how to define it
12:24:42 <int-e> (I've worked in term rewriting for 8 years. I can't help using the terminology.)
12:24:44 <cpressey> Pretty sure untyped \c is confluent too, but I may be misremembering
12:24:46 <ais523_> fwiw, the details of the evaluation strategy are pretty relevant in some cases; it was one of the more interesting (and arguably solvable) problems to come out of the work into Feather
12:25:24 <ais523_> the question being, can you write a lambda-calculus-with-continuations-like language which admits a self-interpreter with eigenratio 1 (without cheating)
12:25:46 <int-e> ais523_: untyped lambda calculus (with beta reduction and alpha conversion, and possibly eta reduction) is confluent... what's your trouble with defining that?
12:26:07 <int-e> ais523_: It gets murky if you don't have explicit alpha conversion... then it becomes confluent modulu alpha conversion.
12:26:13 <ais523_> the main issue in the naive way of doing it is that you can have terms like (\x.\y.y)((\a.a(a))(\a.a(a)))
12:26:34 <ais523_> this is not an infinite loop, but it's easy to get stuck in one if your evaluation order is wonky
12:27:27 <ais523_> (in Unlambda, ``ki```sii``sii: wow, this may be a case where the Unlambda is easier to read than the lambda calculus version…)
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12:28:04 <int-e> confluence just means that if there are reductions s ->* t and s ->* u from a term s then there are further reductions to a common term v: t ->* v and u ->* v
12:28:05 <ais523_> actually it's non-obvious to me how you define confluence in a language which has infinite loops
12:28:23 <int-e> confluence doesn't rely on normal forms in any form or shape
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12:28:59 <ais523_> this is may-equivalence, right? i.e. if there's at least one reduction from s to t, and at least one from s to u, there's at least one from t to v and at least one from u to v
12:29:23 <int-e> sure, reduction is non-deterministic.
12:29:30 <ais523_> the issue with may-equivalence is that although it's mathematically neat, very few languages work that way in practice (i.e. by effectively iterating through all possible evaluation orders)
12:30:36 <cpressey> Well, if their underlying model is confluent, they kind of don't have to...
12:30:43 <ais523_> <wib_jonas> int-e: perhaps they're malbolge instructions ← those go backwards in asciibetical order, not forwards, also they're pretty easy to compress by normalizing and then compressing that
12:31:23 <int-e> ais523_: You usually don't care about confluence either. You care about related properties like uniqueness of normal forms (a ->* b and a ->* c with b and c in normal form implies b = c (modulo alpha, probably))
12:31:44 <ais523_> <cpressey> Well, if their underlying model is confluent, they kind of don't have to... ← the whole issue is that the implementations have a tendency to get stuck in a loop that the language semantics can break them out of, but the choices of the interpreter don't let them
12:32:45 <ais523_> perhaps you could use an entirely random evaluation order to prevent ever getting stuck in a local minimum, but I suspect that would lead to memory leaks and the like that would mean that a self-interpreter would necessarily fail on some programs
12:33:21 <int-e> ais523_: it did go backwards, and compression was quite good really... from 30MB to 1MB with xz isn't shabby at all (interestingly preprocessing made no difference at all).
12:34:20 <ais523_> any compression algo that can work on digraphs will, when applied to Malbolge code, quickly realise that any particular character can only ever be followed by one of eight other characters
12:34:39 <ais523_> so it'll effectively end up operating on a normalized-ish form anyway
12:38:04 <int-e> ais523_: I still expected a larger difference than a couple of hundred bytes (or maybe it was 1k). But I've deleted the file.
12:38:17 <Taneb> ...so a Malbolge program of length n has at most 3n + O(1) bits of information?
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12:38:41 <ais523_> assuming you don't exploit the bug in the parser that lets you sneak arbitrary data at the end of the code, yes
12:38:55 <ais523_> it's actually 3n bits exactly, no O(1) needed
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12:39:15 <Taneb> Ah, I wasn't sure if you were restricted which character you could start with or not
12:39:26 <ais523_> (the O(1) shows up in practical compression algorithms because that's how much space they need to figure out/record the rules of Malbolge)
12:41:11 <ais523_> incidentally, one day I decided to make a Stack Overflow account and answer a couple of Malbolge questions
12:41:20 <ais523_> there aren't very many, though
12:41:48 <int-e> ais523_: Anyway, back to the previous topic, a rewriting concept that connects lambda calculus to implementations is that of a strategy -- which carves out a deterministic relation from the non-deterministic reduction ->. A strategy can be normalizing--meaning that if t has a normal form wrt. ->, then following the strategy will reduce to that normal form as well. There are even concepts like...
12:41:54 <int-e> ..."hyper-normalizing" where you can mix the strategy with the free rewriting relation -> and the normal form is guaranteed to be reached as long as you always eventually apply the strategy (as long as you haven't reached a normal form). This justifies compiler optimizations based on partial evaluation, that is, beta-steps on parts of a program.
12:42:29 <int-e> leftmost-outermost reduction is normalizing and unless I'm very much mistaken, hyper-normalizing.
12:43:20 <ais523_> the ideal strategy for me would be normalizing in an even stronger sense: given two equivalent programs, applying the strategy to both would eventually reach the same form for both, and they would not thereafter diverge
12:43:26 <ais523_> however, I believe that's impossible due to Rice's theorem
12:43:47 <ais523_> (or more directly the halting problem)
12:44:53 <ais523_> something less strong than that, which might be achievable: a self-interpreter which, given any program's source code, eventually optimizes/specialises itself into an internal state that could have been reached by running the program directly
12:44:57 <int-e> Right, you would be able to decide whether a lambda term reduces to I.
12:45:37 <ais523_> I think the self-interpreter could maybe be made to work using a "compile then execute" strategy
12:50:23 <ais523_> you could do it in an Underload-like language which had some reasonable form of input, I think, simply by using * and a and friends to construct a program using composition and quoting, and then finally evaluating the constructed program as the last thing it did
12:51:05 <ais523_> trying to do it without metacircularity would be much harder, though
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12:54:20 <cpressey> int-2: When you program in a functional programming language but you treat it like a rewriting language (like what Haskell calls "equational reasoning"), I think that thinking about whether your functions terminate is closely related to thinking about confluence.
12:54:42 <cpressey> (That was addressed to int-e, obviously)
12:56:29 <int-e> cpressey: not sure I agree
12:58:24 <cpressey> Well, perhaps not. I've been meaning to try programming more in languages actually built around rewriting (Pure and Maude particularly) to refine that idea.
12:59:08 <int-e> hmm Pure (I've heard of Maude)
12:59:51 <cpressey> Which is actually why I was looking up This=That on the esowiki... I thought it was a fairly simple "equational rewriting" language. But, apparently I misremembed.
13:02:47 <int-e> the rewriting based formalism I've actually used intensively is the simplifier in Isabelle/HOL.
13:03:23 <int-e> (but that's not meant to be a programming language)
13:06:26 <int-e> Pure looks cute at a glance, actually.
13:07:18 <int-e> (Maude otoh looked intimidating when I tried to figure out what it is and I still don't really know what it is, except something yadda yadda rewriting blah)
13:08:20 <int-e> By which I mean to say that I got scared away, but I don't know whether I'm actually justified in being scared.
13:21:54 <cpressey> I first saw Maude about a decade ago, was very interested but never actually wrote anything in it, and only recently realized it is the way it is because it comes from a tradition of algebraic semantics, which is rather obscure.
13:23:10 <cpressey> Operational semantics, denotational semantics, and axiomatic semantics walk into a bar...
13:23:54 <int-e> Is that an actual joke.
13:25:02 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Asdfugil * New user account
13:25:25 <myname> are there semantics that deal with endless loops in a meaningful way?
13:26:21 <int-e> myname: Pure semantics: use bottoms. For impure languages you can produce a stream of observations.
13:27:16 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66445&oldid=66408 * Asdfugil * (+152) /* Introductions */
13:27:31 <int-e> (In a way, pure languages are those languages where infinite loops have no meaning.)
13:29:02 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66446&oldid=66445 * Asdfugil * (+60)
13:29:57 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66447&oldid=66446 * Asdfugil * (+15)
13:33:14 <cpressey> I'll also mention Büchi automata (automata that expect an infinite number of inputs) and temporal logic (for stating theorems like "if we start in state S we will always eventually come back to state S")
13:35:52 <int-e> cpressey: oh wow, https://github.com/agraef/pure-lang/wiki/Rewriting#further-information has a whole list of other languages
13:36:52 <int-e> (And the two standard textbooks on term rewriting. Yay. I feel right at home.)
13:40:44 <cpressey> I've read Baader & Nipkow (a long time ago), not Terese though.
13:41:49 <int-e> Terese is more of a handbook than a textbook anyway.
13:42:24 <int-e> (So it makes more sense to study a chapter than to study the whole book.)
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14:58:49 <wib_jonas> one of my wisdoms spawned a discussion about algebra? this is new
14:59:31 <HackEso> photograph//A photograph is a device for creating photograms.
15:02:06 <wib_jonas> "<ais523_> int-e: well you can have a string-rewriting system with a deterministic rule for where to replace" => such as sed or 1.1
15:13:10 <kspalaiologos> I didn't realise extending logical cells for brainfuck had such impact
15:13:33 <kspalaiologos> can you recommend me decently fast Brainfuck interpreters that I can incorporate into my project?
15:13:46 <kspalaiologos> I'm looking mostly for MIT and Apache2 stuff because GPLv3 virus seems risky, lol
15:14:19 <myname> uh, those aren't usually hard to write fast
15:14:19 <kspalaiologos> myname, I've made a tool to extend logical cell size for Brainfuck basically
15:14:33 <myname> what do you mean by logical cell size
15:15:33 <Taneb> So, given a Brainfuck program that requires 16 bit cells, you can transform it to a program which requires 8 bit cells?
15:15:35 <wib_jonas> "<myname> are there semantics that deal with endless loops in a meaningful way?" => see https://esolangs.org/wiki/(0) , which deals with infinite loops, but not really endless ones (except by making them end)
15:15:37 <myname> well, depending on your interpreter, numbers can be arbitrarily big
15:15:50 <kspalaiologos> myname, it depends on the interpreter, so its not portable
15:16:12 <wib_jonas> It can deal with infinite loops of any loop count though
15:16:16 <kspalaiologos> if host interpreter uses 16-bit cells you can detect it
15:17:06 <wib_jonas> Of course that makes it not implementable on a computer, but real computers can't even deal with sequential loops of length 2**64 or distributed parallel loops of length 2**256, so that's to be expected
15:18:15 <myname> i'd say: just write an interpreter in your favourite language of sufficiently low level
15:20:33 <cpressey> kspalaiologos: fwiw, a github search for "fastest brainfuck interpreter" yielded this: https://github.com/barracks510/bfc
15:21:30 <myname> i guess most performance issues come from the data structure used for the tape
15:21:54 <wib_jonas> nah, if it's advertised as "fastest" on the web then it likely isn't
15:22:18 <myname> an array is nice if you don't have to grow it too often, a linked list might be slower on shorter programs
15:23:23 <kspalaiologos> and it just turned out to be slower than mine moderately-optimizing one
15:24:31 <myname> just in time compilation for brainfuck? really?
15:24:49 <myname> i wouldn't be surprised if nobody ever did that
15:25:46 <myname> i mean, we used to write a small interpreter for brainfuck at university and even the stupid solutions did anything i throw on them pretty much instantenious
15:26:08 <kspalaiologos> https://github.com/rdebath/Brainfuck/tree/master/tritium
15:27:04 <kspalaiologos> I've personally discovered this interpreter when I needed something fast for my C compiler targeting brainfuck
15:27:14 <kspalaiologos> but it turned out to be too slow to meet my requirements
15:27:50 <kspalaiologos> even myself I've made a Brainfuck just-in-time compiler, it's not that uncommon thing
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16:29:05 <esowiki> [[Noodle Soup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66448&oldid=36043 * Dtuser1337 * (-12) /* Print 1 2 3 4 5 */
16:29:32 <esowiki> [[Noodle Soup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66449&oldid=66448 * Dtuser1337 * (-1) /* Hello World */
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20:33:40 <esowiki> [[User:Sideshowbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66450&oldid=64689 * Sideshowbob * (+50) /* Works in progress */
20:52:53 <zzo38> I have downloaded the most recent Magic: the Gathering rules.
20:53:21 <zzo38> (I should perhaps convert all of them to the same canonical ASCII format, so that they can then be compared properly.)
21:03:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: I convert them to utf-8.
21:04:39 <HackEso> Magic: The Gathering Comprehensive Rules \ \ These rules are effective as of October 4, 2019. \ \ Introduction \ \ This document is the ultimate authority for Magic: The Gathering® competitive game play. It consists of a series of numbered rules followed by a glossary. Many of the numbered rules are divided into subrules, and each separate rule and subrule of the game has its own number. (Note that subrules skip the letters “l” and “o” du
21:04:51 <b_jonas> ``` grep -w Noble share/mtg/rules.txt
21:04:52 <HackEso> 205.3m Creatures and tribals share their lists of subtypes; these subtypes are called creature types. The creature types are Advisor, Aetherborn, Ally, Angel, Antelope, Ape, Archer, Archon, Army, Artificer, Assassin, Assembly-Worker, Atog, Aurochs, Avatar, Azra, Badger, Barbarian, Basilisk, Bat, Bear, Beast, Beeble, Berserker, Bird, Blinkmoth, Boar, Bringer, Brushwagg, Camarid, Camel, Caribou, Carrier, Cat, Centaur, Cephalid, Chimera, Citizen, Cleric, Cock
21:05:01 <HackEso> 11957:2019-10-01 <wib_jonäs> ` set -e; cd share/mtg; tr -d \\\\r <MagicCompRules_20191004.txt > rules.txt \ 11956:2019-10-01 <wib_jonäs> ` set -e; cd share/mtg; tr -d \\\\\\\\r <MagicCompRules_20191004.txt > rules.txt \ 11833:2019-06-13 <b_jonäs> `` set -e; cd share/mtg; tr -d \\\\r <MagicCompRules_20190612.txt > rules.txt \ 11701:2019-01-26 <b_jonäs> `` set -e; cd share/mtg; iconv -f cp850 -t utf-8 MagicCompRules_20190125.txt | tr -d \\\\r > rules
21:05:24 <shachaf> `doag share/mtg/MagicCompRules_20191004.txt
21:05:26 <HackEso> 11955:2019-10-01 <wib_jonäs> fetch share/mtg/MagicCompRules_20191004.txt https://media.wizards.com/2019/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020191004.txt
21:05:44 <shachaf> Is there a reason not to do that in the channel?
21:06:54 <b_jonas> shachaf: I did that in the channel
21:42:46 <zzo38> I prefer ASCII without carriage returns; it would help when there was one with PC character set once, it will ensure all of the quotation marks match
21:46:21 <shachaf> But how will you return the carriage without carriage returns?
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21:47:46 <zzo38> If send to a printer then the carriage return will be added to return the carriage.
21:48:07 <arseniiv> (I’ll show myself out, it’s just the right time)
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21:54:02 <b_jonas> shachaf: we convert the file before sending it to the printer.
21:54:39 <b_jonas> also, we don't print the comp rules. it would be a waste. it changes like five times a year and it's a hundred pages long.
21:57:51 <zzo38> Print only the pages that are changed.
21:57:55 <b_jonas> zzo38: Throne of Eldraine has a sorcery card with rules text including "Then those creatures fight each other." Does that effectively mean that they fight twice, as in the first creature fights the second than the second fights the first, fight being commutative?
21:58:42 <zzo38> I think just once.
21:59:11 <zzo38> "701.12a. A spell or ability may instruct a creature to fight another creature or it may instruct two creatures to fight each other. Each of those creatures deals damage equal to its power to the other creature."
21:59:35 <zzo38> Yes, I agree the wording is odd, but rule 701.12a seems so say that it is just once even if it says "each other"
21:59:47 <b_jonas> ``` grep -Ei "fight each other" share/mtg/rules.txt
21:59:48 <HackEso> 701.12a A spell or ability may instruct a creature to fight another creature or it may instruct two creatures to fight each other. Each of those creatures deals damage equal to its power to the other creature.
22:00:00 <b_jonas> I wasn't aware of the alternate template
22:00:04 <b_jonas> perhaps because it's a red thing
22:01:01 <b_jonas> yeah, looks like a red thing
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23:29:28 <zzo38> I thought of if I make the new TeXnicard, to make a format for sending changes to the database, with Unusenet, so that you can do collaboration if wanted.
23:38:36 <zzo38> (You could just as well transfer the change files by email or on a floppy disk or paste bin, too, if wanted)
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01:11:24 <esowiki> [[Mice in a maze]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66451&oldid=66373 * TwilightSparkle * (+0) Minor thing
01:44:32 <oerjan> @tell kspalaiologos <kspalaiologos> https://github.com/rdebath/Brainfuck/tree/master/tritium <-- rdebath is definitely the guy in the community to ask about BF interpreter comparison
01:45:53 <oerjan> wait, too slow? i'm shocked
02:02:19 <int-e> . o O ( "didn't manage to reconstruct original C code from compiled code" )
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03:04:06 <esowiki> [[CopyPasta Language/implementation.rb]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66452 * Conor O'Brien * (+1824) Created page with "An implementation of [[CopyPasta Language]] written in Ruby by [[User:Conor O'Brien]]. == Implementation (<code>copypasta.rb</code>) == def fatal_error(error, code=1) S..."
03:04:33 <esowiki> [[User:Conor O'Brien]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66453&oldid=54392 * Conor O'Brien * (+62) /* Languages I have implemented */
03:05:26 <esowiki> [[CopyPasta Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66454&oldid=65573 * Conor O'Brien * (+85)
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04:49:58 <imode> I wanted a way to speed up my interpreter to avoid making scans everywhere. so, I'm sketching out something that takes two files: the code you want to run, and an optional compiled jump table.
04:50:32 <imode> the compiler for this jump table just analyzes the source and keeps track of where matching brackets are for any loops and breaks within those loops.
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04:50:58 <imode> "if you are at address X, jump to address Y if you are any kind of control flow operation."
04:51:14 <imode> this is substituted in for the traditional bracket/scan based approach.
04:51:29 <imode> you can also form this kind of jump table on the fly via caching.
04:53:41 <imode> what's also nice is that you can essentially define segmented executables with this. if the interpreter tries to run a commented section, for example, you can just say "at this instruction (start of a comment), jump to the end of a comment."
04:59:27 <imode> the base command set (which is [,.:;$+-=<~&?01]) can fit inside of a 4-bit value.
04:59:51 <imode> which is great. code can remain ultra-compact while remaining fast.
05:04:39 <imode> the 'or' operator can be defined as :$&$~$\$$\$:$&$~$&$~$
05:04:57 <imode> ,$1,$ :$&$~$ \$$\$ :$&$~$ &$~$ yields "1".
05:05:25 <kmc> what lang is this?
05:05:32 <imode> my own. named Mode.
05:05:53 <int-e> imode. mode. ode. de. e. .
05:06:01 <imode> an ode to mode by imode.
05:06:48 <int-e> just have to deal with Apple if this ever becomes a success
05:07:11 <imode> apple has a language called Mode?
05:07:17 <imode> (also here's an interpreter: https://hatebin.com/qolqoghzzf)
05:07:43 <int-e> imode: I meant the 'i'.
05:08:47 <imode> the iMode, an enterprise-scale language. the implementation only runs on an aluminium cube, which is shipped to you in a puzzle case.
05:09:08 <imode> here's what hello world looks like: ,$1001000,$1100101\$$\$,$1101100\$$\$,$1101100\$$\$,$1101111\$$\$,$101100\$$\$,$100000\$$\$,$1110111\$$\$,$1101111\$$\$,$1110010\$$\$,$1101100\$$\$,$1100100\$$\$,$100001\$$\$,,:$[':$]..
05:12:36 <imode> provided you add ' as an action.
05:14:58 <imode> on to bed. cheers.
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08:30:35 <esowiki> [[Toi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66455&oldid=66193 * Kritixilithos * (+220) added my interpreter
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09:36:48 <kspalaiologos> I'm already working on getting the dynamic registers out of beta
10:13:10 <myname> the main idea for brainfuck is to have as few commands as possible
10:36:21 <kspalaiologos> I'm talking about my assembly targeting train duck
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12:28:33 <patologios> JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA
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13:18:57 <fungot> int-e: it's not quite that either. you can ignore that if you haven't
13:18:58 <HackEso> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
13:19:17 <fungot> int-e: it's only hard because there are just different syntax from what i understand
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14:07:21 <int-e> kspalaiologos: Hmm, have you spoken out against ECMAScript in the past?
14:20:58 <kspalaiologos> I have pooped on ECMAScript in every possible way by now.
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14:26:43 <patologios> JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA
14:26:45 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:26:50 <patologios> JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA
14:26:56 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:27:00 <patologios> JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA
14:27:03 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:27:07 <patologios> JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA
14:27:09 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:27:12 <patologios> JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA
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14:31:35 <patologios> kspalaiologos: we all know you are a skid
14:31:55 <lf94> patologios: what editor?
14:32:07 <lf94> patologios: also your spam affects more than him :)
14:32:11 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:32:22 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:32:24 <int-e> lf94: even those who ignore patologios, apparently :-(
14:32:43 <lf94> are they a bot or?...
14:33:20 <lf94> it isn't great, yeah.
14:33:24 <int-e> who knows or cares... at least until one of our ops intervenes.
14:33:37 <lf94> /ignored I guess :p
14:33:52 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:34:19 <lf94> Wow, weechat ignore system is pretty good
14:34:38 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
14:34:44 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search
14:34:44 <lambdabot> slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
14:34:59 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: poll-add poll-close poll-list poll-remove poll-result poll-show roll
14:35:13 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:35:47 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:36:26 <patologios> KRZYSZTOF PATOLOGIOS SZEWCZYK CHUUUUUUUUUUUUJUUUUUUUUUUUUU
14:37:15 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:40:00 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:42:30 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:48:34 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:48:36 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:48:38 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:48:40 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:48:42 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:48:44 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:49:29 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:50:02 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:50:37 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:50:41 <patologios> JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA
14:50:43 <int-e> ... children these days
14:50:43 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:50:45 <kspalaiologos> My crappy irc client is unable to ignore someone ehhhh
14:50:47 <patologios> JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA
14:50:49 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:50:54 <patologios> JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA
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14:50:59 <patologios> JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA
14:51:00 <int-e> Time to get a better IRC client then. :)
14:51:03 <kspalaiologos> Oh cmon my logs repo is going to fill with that shit
14:51:08 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:51:13 <patologios> JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA
14:51:35 <patologios> DLACZEGO JESZCZE NIE PISZESZ W JS KURWA
14:51:59 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:52:16 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:52:28 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:53:13 <patologios> JAVASCRIPT TO JĘZYK DLA INTELEKTUALISTÓW
14:53:30 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
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14:55:10 <patologios> JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA
14:55:11 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
14:55:26 <patologios> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
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14:57:25 <ais523> patologios: please don't spam the channel
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15:03:50 <int-e> "mixed blessing" is the term
15:06:25 <patologios> kspalaiologos: dodaj mnie na ZBA chuju
15:08:58 <ais523> patologios: this channel's meant to be for discussion of esolangs, especially group discussion; that means that it's best for conversations to be a) ontopic and b) in a language that most of the channel will be able to understand
15:09:19 <ais523> we're often tolerant of deviations from this for people who have made a lot of positive contributions, but as far as I can tell you haven't made any
15:18:16 -!- imode has joined.
15:19:53 <imode> why tolerate obvious spam.
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16:04:11 <int-e> imode: If it works then this can avoid an endless struggle of banning and ban evasion.
16:29:23 <imode> been thinking of a macro syntax to add as an interpreter extension. you could write {<pattern>:<replacement>} to store a segment of code you want to attach to an alias, and (<pattern>) to unpack that segment of code in-place.
16:29:38 <imode> multiple patterns can be chained together as spaces.
16:29:56 <imode> so (foo bar baz) performs multiple insertions.
16:30:17 <imode> (foo)(bar)(baz) is also an option. more typing though.
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17:12:36 <arseniiv> @ask imode when you defined graph rewriting rules, did you meant we could glue vertices together (which could be written as V1 = V2 in LHS for V1, V2 occurring in LHS)?
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18:25:55 <esowiki> [[OOLANG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66456&oldid=51981 * Dtuser1337 * (+1) /* External resources */
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18:32:20 <esowiki> [[OOLANG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66457&oldid=66456 * Dtuser1337 * (+2) /* It's turing complete? */
18:44:22 <esowiki> [[Gaot++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66458&oldid=53116 * Dtuser1337 * (+0) /* Implementations */ replacing the link with the archived version
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19:21:33 <kspalaiologos> I've added arithmetic shifts to my brainfuck assembly
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19:42:56 <b_jonas> imode: just preprocess your source with https://esolangs.org/wiki/SIMPLE_(preprocessor) . You can change the special characters that it uses if you prefer curly braces to mark a macro call.
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20:30:15 <imode> well, the macro system works.
20:30:50 <imode> https://hatebin.com/lkszlrodkq
20:31:35 <imode> arseniiv: w.r.t graph rewriting you asked about earlier, it was more based around edge rewriting rather than vertex gluing.
20:33:22 <arseniiv> imode: I just thought vertex gluing is a natural addition to that
20:33:54 <arseniiv> more natural than vertex splitting (I don’t thing there could be the only one natural way to do so)
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20:38:22 <imode> I should fix the macro system to handle nested macro defs.
20:52:10 <arseniiv> oh you can have a macro definition in another definition’s body?
20:52:19 <imode> that was the intention, yeah.
20:53:33 <arseniiv> ah never mind I wanted to say “conditional macros”
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20:57:31 <imode> yeah you can define macros and apply them at runtime. there is an initial pass, though.
20:58:02 <imode> mainly so you can write things like (begin) ... (while) ... (repeat) without going into an infinite loop.
20:58:17 <imode> because (while) will resolve to a conditional check.
20:58:30 <imode> and will roll until it hits a ']'.
20:58:43 <imode> but since it doesn't encounter one.. it'll continue on forever.
21:13:34 <imode> the macro expander supports recusive macro expansion pretty easily. all it does is check for macro expansions (anything between '(' and ')'), and if it encounters a macro definition, it just jumps to the matching ')', saving all chars in between.
21:13:54 <imode> if it doesn't encounter a macro definition, it expands in-place and seeks to the beginning of the expanded macro.
21:14:36 <imode> it's why (0:,$)(1:,$1)(begin:(1)[)(while:?)(repeat:(1)])(begin)(0)(while)(1)(repeat) works.
21:14:54 <imode> and reduces to ,$1[,$?,$1,$1]
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21:19:43 <imode> another method (which may seem a little better) is to split the whole source into tokens, and inspect each token to see if it's the start of a definition, an existing definition, or a chunk of code.
21:20:09 <imode> this thing is already 243 lines.
21:20:26 <imode> now to figure out how to do if/else chains...
21:28:03 <b_jonas> imode: just use an existing preprocessor that is already known to be able to do any computation and is hard to use in an esoteric way, like SIMPLE
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23:37:12 <imode> https://hastebin.com/oruziketal.txt
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23:37:28 <imode> honestly I'm about ready to go to a token-based preprocessor.
23:38:04 <imode> it requires a little more work. but it might be better...?
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01:19:28 <oerjan> looking at the logs, i sense an int-e shaped gap in our op timezone coverage.
01:20:44 * pikhq believes we should just mandate that ops are drugged enough to be up 24/7
01:21:28 <oerjan> hm all freenode staff are also minor ops here
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06:36:35 <nodejsfan> Hi, my name is Krzysztof Szewczyk and I'm a node.js programmer new into esoteric language programming
06:37:49 <Hooloovo0> the first I heard about esolangs was via the ioccc
06:38:23 <Hooloovo0> international obfuscated c code competition or something like that
06:39:30 <Hooloovo0> shortly after that, there were a couple people who were competitive in code golf, so I learned about a couple of those languages, and started browsing the wiki
06:40:00 <int-e> nodejsfan: welcome back, but you're still off topic.
06:40:02 <Hooloovo0> my favorite language specification is INTERCAL's
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06:40:24 <int-e> `relcome nodejsfan
06:40:26 <HackEso> nodejsfan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
06:40:37 <Hooloovo0> if you understand INTERCAL's specs, you will go far
06:41:50 <Hooloovo0> I mean, the reasoning behind the specs
06:43:04 <int-e> for a non-standard value of "reason"
06:43:16 <int-e> "let's make this weird"
06:44:59 <Hooloovo0> this is the right verson of the manual: https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~asb/teaching/cs415-fall05/docs/intercal.pdf
06:46:15 <Hooloovo0> it was hard for me to find it... it is a legendary document which should be on the wiki
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06:47:50 <int-e> Hooloovo0: we can't put that on the wiki
06:48:47 <int-e> Because for the wiki, "Content is available under CC0 public domain dedication."
06:49:16 <Hooloovo0> there should at least be a link to it
06:49:25 <int-e> A link is fine of course.
06:49:36 <int-e> Sorry if that's what you meant.
06:52:15 <Hooloovo0> to me, that's the most iconic document describing what intercal means
06:52:43 <Hooloovo0> like, you can give a technical language description, but esr's doesn't have the circuitous diagram
06:57:42 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hooloovo0 * New user account
07:00:08 <Hooloovo0> huh, apparently I already have an account under Hooloovoo :/ not sure if I made any edits with it
07:00:37 <Hooloovo0> I mean, I think it was me who was hanging around the IRC channel for way too long before making an accoung
07:05:42 <oerjan> no edits other than the introduction
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07:21:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66459&oldid=66447 * Hooloovo0 * (+214)
07:21:29 <esowiki> [[INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66460&oldid=57489 * Hooloovo0 * (+186)
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08:02:03 <kspalaiologos> I'm thinking about floating point Brainfuck emulation
08:04:20 <kspalaiologos> Where first cell represents data after the point, and the second represents data before the point
08:04:47 <kspalaiologos> Yet, won't the operations take insane amount of time?
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08:51:58 <rain2> you could do 3 bit floats
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09:04:20 <kspalaiologos> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
09:04:22 <kspalaiologos> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
09:04:24 <kspalaiologos> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
09:04:26 <kspalaiologos> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
09:04:27 <kspalaiologos> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
09:04:29 <kspalaiologos> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
09:04:31 <kspalaiologos> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
09:04:33 <kspalaiologos> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
09:04:34 <kspalaiologos> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
09:04:39 <Taneb> kspalaiologos: you forgot to switch account before spamming
09:05:06 <kspalaiologos> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
09:05:21 <kspalaiologos> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
09:05:47 <myname> but i sure as hell love my anti spam script
09:06:04 <kspalaiologos> JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS
09:10:35 <kspalaiologos> BRIANFUCK IS THE ONLY GOOD TECHNOLOGY FOR WEB APPS
09:11:07 <kspalaiologos> My brainfuck compiler emits 30x faster code than V8
09:11:15 <fizzie> I know it might just lead to ban evasion, but I guess we might just need to do it. Even if the content is kind of just on the borderline of being relevant, the presentation is just too spammy.
09:12:25 <int-e> fwiw I think what's happening here right now is a case of impersonation.
09:14:41 <fizzie> A nickname isn't really an "account".
09:15:54 <myname> int-e: why do you think so?
09:16:08 <int-e> we might consider +R, but meh
09:16:24 <fizzie> myname: Probably because this new "kspalaiologos" has a different user@host mask, and hasn't registered to services, unlike the previous one.
09:16:44 <myname> ah, i missed a part then
09:17:03 <fizzie> int-e: Yeah, maybe they'll just get bored? I'd really rather not play this game.
09:21:09 <rain2> kspalaiologos: not spam pls
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09:22:42 <myname> you forgot how to not be an idiot
09:25:14 <kspalaiologos> For most of you it will take years to write something like that lol
09:27:29 <rain2> learning galois theory
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09:55:05 <wib_jonas> fizzie: and uses "~androidirc" as the user part of their hostmask just like the previous spammer. they forgot to change it to "kspalaiol". not that it would change much.
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10:20:08 <arseniiv> shame the real one’s stalked by such an obstinate person
10:21:24 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: look at it from the other way. this channel rarely has moderation problems other than me.
10:22:00 <arseniiv> no one deserves such treatment, I think even if they killed many people
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10:25:40 <arseniiv> wib_jonas: do you think to have moderation problems is fun? :) eh. Maaaayyybe. In a low dosage, not that much, it just gets annoying instead and stays here due to hysteric^W hysteresis
10:26:42 <wib_jonas> I'm saying that, in general, it's good to participate in a channel that has a nice community and not much mod'ion problems, this is just a rare exception
10:26:52 <arseniiv> hysteresis is a neat word and it’s connected with a beautiful picture of that fat S-like region
10:27:57 <wib_jonas> not for me. I connect it with digital histeresis, with an analog input, binary output, and two thresholds for switching the output on and off. no S-like curve
10:28:38 <arseniiv> (↑↑ and before this moment, I didn’t really think hysteria could have something in common with hysteresis)
10:31:24 <wib_jonas> I found out that in firefox and in windows file explorer, with the english localization, both control-L and alt-d focuses the address bar. (Previously I only knew about control-L, as well as the usual windows thing of cycling among focusable regions with F6.) This must be another of the fallouts of browsers imitating both MSIE and Netscape, like F5
10:31:47 <int-e> Do black holes suffer from mass hysteria?
10:33:11 <arseniiv> wib_jonas: it would just be a digital S (hehehe bad pun day, it’s that bad it’s not even a pun in a strict sense, just a connection of polygonal chains with something machine-made, and in latter years, digital) _|¯ _|¯ _|¯
10:34:13 <arseniiv> int-e: that’s the real cause of Hawking radiation
10:40:15 <arseniiv> BTW had anyone some trouble to comprehend why on earth sigmoid is called that? I think all of Σ, σ and ς are further from that curve than a plain S
10:41:58 <arseniiv> maybe final sigma ς suffices, but still S is more canonical, it does even have the same symmetry as sigmoid
10:45:34 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: it can be a latin S, but called "sigma" in a fancy way. you can use the phoenician-origin names for latin letters too, even if they're most commonly used with the greek or hebrew letters.
10:46:21 <wib_jonas> I mean, sometimes it's handy to have two sets, to make it easier to read formulas out loud and distinguish greek letters
10:49:50 <wib_jonas> hmm... maybe for esotericness, we could even use the unrelated name series that's normally used for futhark runes, or the series for tengwar letters
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13:15:29 <arseniiv> esotericness, esotericity, esoterism, esoterié?
13:16:06 <arseniiv> (totally out of my depth with diacritics on the last one, but it seems look nicer that way?..)
13:18:23 <wib_jonas> we call them "things on top of letters"
13:18:46 <arseniiv> like, it’s a literal translation?
13:20:59 <HackEso> A is one of seven villages in Norway. The BBC invented them by not understanding things on top of letters.
13:21:35 <HackEso> Örjan is the diæresed twin. He will punctuate your vöẅëls, and maybe a few other unsuspecting letters.
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13:22:58 <HackEso> Your pal Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers without noticing it.
13:23:17 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: don’t facepalm logreading but that person stole your nickname and wrote things for a while
13:23:41 <HackEso> œrjan is oerjan and ørjan's superhero third cousin (once removed) from Québec. He got his cheesy powers by falling into a giant poutine bowl.
13:25:00 <arseniiv> He got his cheesy powers by falling into a giant poutine bowl. => seems like an Obélix allusion at the same times
13:25:24 <arseniiv> time*, how did that s got there
13:30:37 <arseniiv> is there a simple mechanism to reserve the nickname somehow? besides password? (I don’t remember how long it is before one is kicked out when not entering it)
13:31:49 <arseniiv> because if there’s none, it’ll be weird to blame you not being prepared for, erm, that shouldn’t even happen to anyone
13:32:11 <arseniiv> BTW there are at least seven wisdom *rjans :o
13:33:03 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: there sort of is, but in this case it doesn't matter, a spammer could just use another similar nickname then
13:33:25 <wib_jonas> we can't reserve all or most nicknames since freenode supports nicks of length up to 15
13:35:06 -!- arseniiv has changed nick to arseniiv_.
13:35:08 <arseniiv_> hm but for example I bet you don’t trust much when someone writes from a similar nickname, if you notice the difference early on
13:35:11 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv.
13:36:42 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: you mean like oren vs oerjan, or web_jonas vs wib_jonas, or HackEgo vs HackEso?
13:37:48 <arseniiv> well, I do actually know oren is not a misspelling of oerjan :) and that HackEgo is an archaism
13:38:00 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd wisdom; echo *rjan; cat owrjan
13:38:00 <HackEso> boorjan oerjan owrjan sewerjan typoerjan örjan ørjan œrjan אrjan \ owrjan is oerjan's wise twin.
13:38:28 <wib_jonas> an archaism? now that makes me feel old.
13:38:44 <arseniiv> and I remember to not trust any of your prepended variants too much too :P
13:39:26 <wib_jonas> and of course, whoever reincarnates HackEso the next time may choose to call it HackEvo or HackEto or HackEdo or HackElo or HackEmo or HackEro etc
13:39:52 <Taneb> wib_jonas: we can work out which is the best with some sort of HackElo rating
13:40:10 <arseniiv> it’s already suspicious you mentioned yourself here! I bet you are not you. And IP is all wrong, it should contain more 2’s
13:41:48 <arseniiv> HackEto seems multilingually slavic, like “hack it/this”
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13:46:20 <arseniiv> I have messaged my underscored alter-eto by lambdabot and are still waiting when I’ll forget about that and ultimately read that and surprise myself
13:46:33 <arseniiv> half a year ago by now, I think
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13:47:40 <arseniiv> that you get when you get too convoluted
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15:49:12 <izabera> i need to run a super quick test with iterm2 and i have no access to it
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16:58:22 <rain2> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebraic_extension#Generalizations wow you can do galois theory for arbitrary theories not just fields
16:58:25 <rain2> what do you think abou this?
16:59:14 <rain2> https://arxiv.org/pdf/0909.4340.pdf
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17:17:51 <arseniiv> rain2: this looks like a neat thing! but alas almost out of my current interest
17:18:22 <rain2> what is your current interest
17:19:35 <arseniiv> (cont.) interests* and also I don’t know an ordinary Galois theory and so I would be a bad conversalist :D
17:19:35 <arseniiv> <rain2> what is your current interest => hmm I don’t sure. I’m lazy :(
17:20:07 <rain2> im learning galois theory
17:21:01 <arseniiv> what I could grab with one hand outstretched from my current position, so for example hm it’s hard to externalize what I want, maybe I don’t want anything
17:21:56 <arseniiv> I planned to read some things, though
17:22:34 <arseniiv> two articles on algebraic effects and also I wanted to watch a course on Clifford algebras and I can’t proceed with it all effectively
17:23:13 <arseniiv> last three days, I haven’t read a page from those, and I watched an intro of a completely different course, though by the same person
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17:24:31 <arseniiv> ah also I re-listened to several old ATB albums to make several other things clear
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17:52:48 <ski> @messages-loud
17:52:48 <lambdabot> LKoen said 2h 7m 26s ago: I'm definitely memorising "nychthemeron" for future use
17:53:23 <LKoen> this word doesn't have an equivalent in French, according to wikipedia
17:53:47 <LKoen> which is very surprising as mostly all "greek" english words are also french, although usually with a different last syllable
17:53:59 <HackEso> @messages-loud @messages-fond / @messages-flood @messages-bond // @messages-lousy @messages-sound / @messages-lost @messages-found // @messages-proud @messages-bold / @messages-good @messages-gold
17:56:10 <LKoen> but somehow reassuring because "nychthemeron" sounds unsettlingly like a very bad French insult
18:33:06 <ski> LKoen : in swedish it's just "dygn", which was why i was disappointed with not finding an english equivalent, for a long while
18:33:44 <ski> (and i think some other nordic languages, and also russian, has a word for it ?)
18:34:15 <ski> i remember having used "circadian cycle", for some time, but it's a bit awkward to say, and not completely accurate
18:35:55 <ski> anyhoo .. some months ago, my elder brother, who's a bit interested in calendars (having made many comparative tables and so, and e-mailed some experts, &c ..), mentioned the word to me, and i've been using it, ever since
18:43:38 <HackEso> Twinkle, twinkle, little star!
18:48:49 <arseniiv> <ski> (and i think some other nordic languages, and also russian, has a word for it ?) => you mean, day and night, 24 hours? yeah, it has! Сутки (sutki), and I bet it’s not so formal as nychthemeron (it seems pretty uncommon). Though usually a word for “day” is used when it won’t make too much confusion, but I think this is the same for English too and I bet most languages. And is dygn not too formal in use, too?
18:53:10 <arseniiv> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nychthemeron has mono-word translations into several other languages too, and it doesn’t have a mark how formal it is
18:54:38 <HackEso> Twinkle, twinkle, little star!
18:56:11 <esowiki> [[INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66461&oldid=66460 * Ais523 * (-186) Undo revision 66460 by [[Special:Contributions/Hooloovo0|Hooloovo0]] ([[User talk:Hooloovo0|talk]]): I agree it's a good manual, but it's also available from both of the links immediately above it, and we probably don't need to link to it three times
18:57:08 <arseniiv> . o O ( `learn ☆★ Nychthemeron, also known as nightdayness )
18:57:54 <b_jonas> ``` unidecode ✱; quote "very heavy"
18:57:55 <HackEso> [U+2731 HEAVY ASTERISK] \ 1333) <shachaf> `unidecode ⧸🙼 <HackEso> [U+29F8 BIG SOLIDUS] [U+1F67C VERY HEAVY SOLIDUS] <shachaf> it is with a very heavy solidus that i write to inform you that unicode has too many code points
19:00:07 <b_jonas> and certainly not a _little_ star
19:01:06 <b_jonas> although I guess even little stars are very heavy
19:05:18 <arseniiv> twinkle twinkle Ceres Pallas Juno Vesta Hebe Iris
19:07:19 <arseniiv> hm I missed Astraea, didn’t heard about that one nor was it in the table
19:07:41 <arseniiv> these are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, and Astraea is 5
19:08:19 <arseniiv> and it would break the rhythm anyway
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19:11:12 <arseniiv> don’t you please come close to us
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19:13:14 * ski rereads arseniiv's statements after realizing they're (probably) not a bot
19:13:53 <ski> "dygn" is not very formal, no. though "dag" is still probably more common (but not by that much, would be my guess)
19:14:52 <arseniiv> I may be a self-modifying bot written initially in a, let’s say, unlambda
19:15:05 <ski> you may be
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19:16:53 <arseniiv> b_jonas is a bad influence, I’ll try to not discuss small planets too much
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19:39:25 <ski> LKoen : apparently "nycthémère", according to <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nychthemeron> (courtesy of arseniiv)
19:42:07 <ski> à tes souhaits
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19:44:31 <b_jonas> does that mean a night-lover, or an alternate name for november?
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20:05:28 <imode> https://hastebin.com/cetacujate.txt
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20:27:13 <LKoen> okay so apparently nyctémère would be a french word
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20:30:18 <LKoen> but sesquiannual definitely doesn't have a french equivalent
20:30:27 <LKoen> and that's worrying
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21:00:13 <imode> https://hastebin.com/papomucuja.cpp final and full FizzBuzz in Mode. I think I'm done with this language.
21:01:51 <imode> it's interesting, it's a little less than convenient (but manageable), it's an older proof of concept brought to light.
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22:24:52 <ski> LKoen : also "nyctémère","nychthémère","nychthéméron" (says WP)
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22:26:17 * ski . o O ( <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sesquilinear> )
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23:58:22 <imode> so, I have this piece of code that does pattern matching and construction for tuples. https://hatebin.com/iepdhihnii
23:59:08 <imode> if you have a variable that's not present in the bindings (generated from a match), it gets filled in with a unique value.
23:59:27 <imode> I have a hypothesis that because of this, and only this, that it's turing complete.
23:59:40 <imode> because I can construct an ever-expanding tape in both directions along with rules.
23:59:57 <imode> https://hatebin.com/oggcyfafzd
00:00:37 <imode> my question is, without this mechanism (which has implications regarding the uniqueness of the generated binding), is it still turing complete?
00:02:45 <imode> I don't see how it could be. if I treat the tuple store as a set rather than a bag, there's no way to generate unique tuples without explicitly listing them all.
00:03:30 <imode> if I treat it as a bag, then I could probably construct some sort of counter.
00:17:38 <zzo38> I wrote this list of ideas for the game; to see if they like or dislike them or can make variants of it to make a more surprise to me. https://arin.ga/JfMezt What is your opinion of this, please? Do you have any further ideas please?
00:55:25 <Lykaina> i can't make any sense of the irc program i wrote 10+ years ago
00:55:28 <Lykaina> it's 8 bash shell scripts, uses 100% cpu...
00:56:50 <zzo38> You should write it to not use 100% CPU.
00:59:32 <zzo38> I use IRC program I wrote by myself. If I were writing it today though I probably would do some things differently, such as not using PHP (I didn't have anything better at that time).
01:00:42 <Lykaina> no idea how beetle (it's name) works.
01:04:09 <zzo38> Other than using 100% CPU, is it any good?
01:04:30 <Lykaina> i remember that it is, in a sense, multiple programs working as one.
01:04:31 <fizzie> I had an IRC thing (though I think it might've been an ircII script) that used 100% of CPU too, except it was on my ISP's shared shell server and got me shouted at.
01:05:14 <fizzie> It wasn't a particularly large ISP.
01:05:26 <fizzie> They got acquired at least three levels deep, eventually.
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01:06:56 <fizzie> Dystopia (the original ISP) got bought up by sci.fi, which merged with a bunch of others to join Saunalahti, which eventually ended up owned by Elisa.
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01:33:45 <shachaf> If you want to define busy-beaver-style numbers in a way people will easily agree on, what computation system should you use?
01:34:25 <shachaf> The classic one with Turing machines has questions like whether the tape is double-sided, whether blank is a separate symbol, whether you count number of steps or output size, etc.
01:34:53 <shachaf> What's a sequence that grows as quickly as BB but can be defined unambiguously in one sentence?
01:35:19 <shachaf> I was thinking maybe somthing about the solution to a Diophantine equation of some size, but then defining the size of an equation is slightly awkward.
01:35:34 <pikhq> Hmm, tricky. I think the most important property for such a computation system (beyond being TC, of course) is being simple to state unambiguously.
01:45:22 <kmc> can you define something analogous to busy beaver machines with lambda calculus or combinators?
01:46:12 <shachaf> You can count the number of reductions or something.
01:46:29 <shachaf> Or just produce a large number.
01:46:42 <pikhq> Yeah, I guess a SKI combinator busy beaver makes sense
01:46:43 <kmc> B(n) = the maximum number of reduction steps to normal form for a combinator string of size n
01:47:12 <oerjan> even those cases still require you to define the syntax to measure size.
01:47:55 <kmc> but it's just a tree where leaves are labeled S or K, right?
01:48:06 <kmc> a binary tree
01:50:52 <oerjan> still more one way to count that :P
01:51:15 <kmc> but it should fit in one sentence
01:51:21 <kmc> which was the original goal
01:51:33 <kmc> if you have to define S and K then it'd be a bit of a run-on sentence but whatever
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01:57:27 <oerjan> i hear there are entire books written as a single sentence, anyway.
01:58:53 <oerjan> it seems schlock isn't going to attempt communication at this time.
02:14:13 <HackEso> 9196:2016-10-08 <boil̈y> ` sed -i \'s/\\. h/. H/\' wisdom/\xc5\x93rjan \ 9195:2016-10-08 <oerjän> learn \xc5\x93rjan is oerjan and \xc3\xb8rjan\'s superhero third cousin (once removed) from Qu\xc3\xa9bec. he got his cheesy powers by falling into a giant poutine bowl. \ 9194:2016-10-08 <oerjän> learn \xc5\x93rjan is oerjan and \xc3\xb8rjan\'s superhero third cousin (once removed) from Qu\xc3\xa9bec. he got his cheesy powers by falling into a giant pou
02:14:27 <HackEso> 9194:2016-10-08 <oerjän> learn \xc5\x93rjan is oerjan and \xc3\xb8rjan\'s superhero third cousin (once removed) from Qu\xc3\xa9bec. he got his cheesy powers by falling into a giant poutine bowl. \ 9195:2016-10-08 <oerjän> learn \xc5\x93rjan is oerjan and \xc3\xb8rjan\'s superhero third cousin (once removed) from Qu\xc3\xa9bec. he got his cheesy powers by falling into a giant poutine bowl. \ 9196:2016-10-08 <boil̈y> ` sed -i \'s/\\. h/. H/\' wisdom/\x
02:14:49 * oerjan cannot recall whether he actually thought of Obelix, as obvious as it is
02:15:04 * pikhq scratches her head
02:15:15 <kmc> shachaf: you could also use binary lambda calculus
02:15:26 <kmc> which was designed for roughly this purpose
02:16:04 <oerjan> pikhq: famous for also getting powers by falling into something hth
02:16:23 <kmc> what are cheesy powers
02:16:36 <pikhq> Oh, as in Asterix & Obelix. Derp
02:17:54 <kmc> `wisdom kmc
02:17:54 <HackEso> kmc//kmc did not run the International Devious Code Contest of 2013. She is her own grandpa.
02:17:58 <kmc> `wisdom pikhq
02:18:04 <kmc> `wisdom HackEso
02:18:07 <HackEso> hackeso//HackEso is almost but not quite unlike HackEgo.
02:18:08 <oerjan> kmc: as a casein point, imagine spiderman-like web made of sticky cheese
02:18:20 <pikhq> I see. Shame about my lack of wisdom.
02:18:41 <kmc> sometimes the wisest wisdom is none?
02:18:46 <oerjan> there's no pikhq wisdom?
02:19:12 <pikhq> I must have always been a fool
02:19:35 <oerjan> well then i can save work on correcting pronouns
02:19:52 <pikhq> I suppose that does make things easier.
02:20:53 <pikhq> Benefits of being an unquotable fool: pronouns become much more mutable state
02:21:03 <pikhq> Fewer side effects
02:22:23 <oerjan> . o O ( some day i will be the last cis male in this channel. )
02:26:29 <oerjan> it's just extrapolation https://xkcd.com/605/
02:26:52 <pikhq> I suppose that tracks.
02:29:43 <pikhq> By extension, soon the entire world will be trans. We're taking over, muahahaha
02:29:48 <kmc> I'm arguing with a mycophobe on reddit :|
02:30:05 <pikhq> Someone who's afraid of _fungus_?
02:30:07 <kmc> someone who is irrationally fearful of mushrooms
02:30:12 <kmc> which would include most americans
02:30:28 <pikhq> But mushrooms are delicious.
02:30:37 <kmc> not "eating mushrooms can be dangerous and you have to know what you're doing" but "oh god anyone who tries to pick mushrooms is going to die no matter how careful they are"
02:30:49 <kmc> this person also seems to think the only reason to pick wild mushrooms is to save money
02:30:58 <kmc> oerjan: I used to think I'd be the last cis male left
02:31:25 <pikhq> kmc: So, tell me how that worked out? :)
02:32:43 <kmc> by the year 2050, all coding is done by trans lesbian catgirls, all of whom are dating each other
02:33:34 <pikhq> "Naruhodō" (I see), said in a catlike fashion
02:33:52 <pikhq> kmc: And then, the economy will finally become subservient to the gay agenda.
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02:34:23 <kmc> seems apropos https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/71753317_680517102458398_924369166457110528_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_oc=AQnaI1aohRyAnMzmm-SsSpMKuebusN3Z9PHoa_cp9IRhvAhHuFh92CAjnr9S8lp-Dp1goWX-QZKulownlDCH54dW&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=f1303938ed1d6cfd9ed4361195396396&oe=5E29C3BA
02:35:03 <kmc> pikhq: *taps fingers together* eeeeeeexcellent
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03:49:59 <kmc> shachaf: do you know anything about meditation?
03:50:14 <kmc> what kinds to do, how to get started etc
03:51:30 <pikhq> Here I thought you were omniscient. What use are you anyways?
03:52:19 <shachaf> I know some people who are into it, at various levels of hippitude, and they tend to recommend it?
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04:38:23 <Hooloovo0> basically all I've done is go into a hypnagogic state while my brain is still awake, basically lay completely still for a long time
04:39:51 <Hooloovo0> eventually you should feel an, uh, weight, or numbness, leading down your extremities
04:42:33 <Hooloovo0> it's weird not having any (changing) sensory input at all...
04:55:42 <zzo38> How to control the set of characters that pushing control and a arrow key skips to in the location bar in Firefox? I want it to skip to only / & = # ?
05:00:01 <kmc> Hooloovo0: cool
05:00:08 <kmc> I'm going to try a sensory deprivation float tank probably next week
05:00:17 <kmc> and see what that's like
05:00:59 <kmc> sure thing
05:02:50 <Hooloovo0> I feel like a sensory deprivation tank would produce the same effects as I get, but I'm not sure if there's anything else I'm not (sensing/feeling/experiencing)
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05:21:28 <kmc> well, it'll be different for everyone anyway
05:21:33 <kmc> but I'm glad to share my experiences
05:21:52 <kmc> I have a longstanding interest in altered mental states.
05:22:20 <kmc> one semester in college I had 2 roommates so I built the space under my desk into a sensory isolation sleeping pod
05:22:23 <kmc> it was great
05:22:39 <kmc> I had a thick piece of wood and blackout curtains that I could slide against the open side
05:22:55 <kmc> I slept in there, would also watch tv on my laptop, or listen to music in the dark
05:23:19 <kmc> and i'm also into psychedelic drugs but you know that.
05:23:31 <kmc> zzo38: have you ever taken psychedelic drugs?
05:24:02 <kmc> I have tried to meditate a bit, but never made a habit of it; I am much better at forming habits now than I was the last time I tried, so maybe it will stick this time
05:24:12 <kmc> my therapist recommend going to some events at the SF Zen Center
05:24:34 <kmc> hynagogic states are interesting
05:24:42 <kmc> hypnagogic*
05:24:53 <kmc> as are dreams
05:25:02 <kmc> I have used galantamine a couple of times to enhance dreaming
05:25:56 <Hooloovo0> I have never had a real habit of meditating
05:26:31 <Hooloovo0> it's always been somethting I do once every 2 days - 2 months ish
05:27:16 <Hooloovo0> I did take a class on buddhism which I thought was really great
05:29:32 <Hooloovo0> the professor is a monk - he teaches at a monestary/university and I don't know what else to say
05:30:58 <kmc> another thing i do that is maybe a bit like meditation (or maybe even the opposite) is to listen to music intently in a way that crowds out 'verbal' thoughts
05:31:03 <kmc> it feels good
05:32:20 <kmc> at some point in my late teens I gained the ability to follow multiple voices in music in a deeper way than I could before -- in a way that actually feels like multithreaded attention
05:32:56 <kmc> this happened shortly after I first smoked pot, i don't know if that's related but plausibly
05:33:04 <Hooloovo0> I feel like "not thinking verbal thoughts" is a distinct state of consciousness different from a lot of others
05:34:47 <kmc> and the goal of many forms of meditation is to reach this state?
05:35:04 <Hooloovo0> it's what you get from listening while high af, and (chanting/dancing/etc) while arguably sober
05:37:24 <kmc> i think drugs usually *don't* help me get there
05:37:39 <kmc> because i am very analytical and keep trying to describe the drug experience in words (in my own head or to others)
05:38:31 <kmc> and even if that's not where my attention focuses, i get really analytical on psychedelics
05:38:35 <kmc> cannabis might be better for it
05:38:50 <kmc> but yeah I think listening to music intently (whether sober or not) is the best way I know to do it
05:39:00 <Hooloovo0> that makes sense... when I take drugs, I always think about how it's different from base reality
05:39:41 <Hooloovo0> I have not tried psychadelics, just weed, so there's that
05:40:07 <kmc> from this discussion I get the feeling that you would find psychedelics interesting :)
05:40:51 <Hooloovo0> I mean I'm sure theyd be interesting
05:41:26 <Hooloovo0> I'm not actually sure why I have qualms about taking them
05:43:01 <kmc> good to wait and do it right
05:43:12 <kmc> because the experience is determined mostly by set&setting and not by the drug itself
05:43:27 <kmc> stanislav grof called LSD a "nonspecific amplifier of mental processes" or something like that, and I think he's right
05:43:44 <kmc> I think of it as turning up the gain on all sorts of pattern matching systems
05:44:25 <kmc> so you start to see things that aren't there, but also things that are real and had eluded you previously
05:44:33 <kmc> not just in the literal sense of 'see' but also with respect to emotions and cognition
05:44:42 <kmc> but, it's hard to put it into words of course.
05:46:57 <Hooloovo0> yeah, see/experience/feel are different
05:47:20 <kmc> then on the more intense experiences the subject/object boundary itself becomes permeable, or dissolves entirely
05:47:58 <Hooloovo0> I'm not entirely sure I understand that sentence
05:48:14 <kmc> which is impossible to describe. anything you say about it is a contradiction because our way of talking is essentially predicated on that distinction
05:48:27 <kmc> a statement like "I experienced ego death" is obviously contradictory
05:48:52 <kmc> ego death is... a thing that happens
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05:48:57 <kmc> it doesn't happen *to* anyone
05:49:33 <kmc> I was essentially a panpsychist before I started taking psychedelics but it's one thing to believe something and another to experience it, you know?
05:49:45 <kmc> that there is only one thing, which is you and me and the universe and God and doesn't even need a name
05:49:56 <kmc> and all the boundaries are heuristics we impose on the world
05:50:19 <shachaf> When I was a v. small human I remember just naturally thinking that everyone was the same person.
05:50:31 <shachaf> And being surprised at the realization that maybe that's not true.
05:50:39 <shachaf> Of course it could be a fake memory like most of my earliest memories.
05:50:41 <kmc> did you include yourself in that?
05:50:49 <kmc> how do you know your early memories are fake?
05:51:27 <kmc> I don't have a lot of childhood memories. I'm told this is a thing that happens with dissociation
05:51:30 <kmc> but maybe I have enough
05:51:33 <shachaf> Some of them I can tell because they match stories that I've been told, but then when I ask about further details it turns out they're wrong (e.g. not in the place I thought).
05:52:16 <Hooloovo0> I'm not sure what you mean by the me/universe/god statement
05:52:26 <shachaf> Others I think are fake due to other heuristics but I don't remember the details now.
05:52:28 <kmc> Hooloovo0: I'm only going to make a fool of myself if I try
05:52:31 <kmc> that's how these things go
05:52:52 <kmc> lexande frequently submits corrections to my autobiography
05:53:01 <kmc> I think his memory is better than mine overall
05:55:44 <Hooloovo0> before searching for it again I felt like https://principiadiscordia.com/book/57.php
05:55:52 <zzo38> When any player casts a spell, that player may choose a number which is a multiple of the converted mana cost of that spell, is less than or equal to forty, and has not yet been chosen for ~. If they do not, they lose five life.
05:57:18 <kmc> Hooloovo0: that is a nice page
05:57:28 <kmc> I was pretty into discordianism as a teenager
05:57:34 <kmc> I should probably go back and read the texts again
05:57:36 <zzo38> Hooloovo0: I read that before, and, I think it is good.
05:57:49 * Hooloovo0 reads logs: I know was re: (I'll make a fool of myself if I try)
05:58:01 <kmc> "Pick a grid, and through it some chaos appears ordered and some appears disordered. Pick another grid, and the same chaos will appear differently ordered and disordered."
05:58:07 <kmc> this can be made mathematically precise in quantum mechanics
05:58:31 <Hooloovo0> that's one of the reasons I like it
05:58:34 <kmc> you have different basis sets for a hilbert space
05:58:48 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, I suppose so. I have not considered that, but, yes, that makes sense.
05:58:49 <kmc> a state that looks entangled in one basis is separated in another
05:58:58 <kmc> and everything you do in the system is basically a change of basis?
05:59:20 <shachaf> Wait, does entanglement depend on your basis?
05:59:21 <zzo38> One book about philosophy that I had read some time ago, mentioned, quoting someone else, they expected you can write a serious book about philosophy consisting entirely of jokes. Now I can think that is correct, because that is what Principia Discordia is.
05:59:22 <kmc> quantum observation is choosing a basis and then projecting the system state onto it
05:59:25 <kmc> shachaf: maybe not
05:59:36 <shachaf> I thought that, like being a rank-1 matrix, separability was basis-independent.
05:59:55 <kmc> zzo38: that seems about right
06:00:33 <shachaf> whoa, I had a basic question about quantum things that maybe you know the answer to.
06:00:47 <kmc> you shouldn't expect me to be correct
06:00:55 <shachaf> I feel like all the quantum things I know, like entanglement, can be local.
06:00:57 <kmc> especially in my current state
06:01:03 <shachaf> But I don't know what locality means.
06:02:02 <zzo38> I have looked at the mathematics of quantum state vectors, and it does seem like some states might be entangled or unentangled from some point of view. But, it is confusing and apparently even scientists do not understand so well, so I have heard?
06:02:22 <Hooloovo0> zzo38, no, the PD is completely serious. there's no jokes in it
06:02:42 <shachaf> zzo38: I think the specific thing about whether a state is separable or not is just regular multilinear algebra that people do understand?
06:03:27 <zzo38> shachaf: Probably you are correct.
06:04:51 <zzo38> Hooloovo0: Are you sure there is no jokes in it? I thought it is completely serious despite it consists entirely of jokes.
06:05:08 <HackEso> 1/2:norway//Norway is the suburb capital of Sweden. It's where the Nobel Peace Prize is announced. It's a warm, dry place, at least compared to Québec. \ k//K K K Ken \ brain//Brains are just receptacles for bricks. \ `hello//`hello prints variants of hello, world. To control format, pass a single letter as command-line argument. "@"=>"hello, world", "H"=>"hello, world.", P=>"hello, world!", "X"=>"hello, world,", take 1 letter later to s/h/H/, 2
06:05:11 <HackEso> 2/2:letter later to s/o,/o/, 4 letter later to s/w/W/, lowercase to remove newline. \ te sting//This is horrible?
06:08:08 <Hooloovo0> zzo38, I'm pretty sure that's syi sydasti
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06:42:23 <HackEso> Today is Pungenday, the 59th day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3185
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07:08:50 <zzo38> Do you like this? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/records_of_puzzles
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07:52:36 <shachaf> zzo38: I like the sentence "Do you like this?".
07:52:41 <shachaf> Is that what you were asking about?
07:54:34 <int-e> shachaf: I don't get it... it's neither fun nor a pun.
08:04:58 <ski> Hooloovo0 : hm, i've done that, some
08:05:24 <shachaf> Do you like non-interactive zero-knowledge proofs?
08:05:48 <shachaf> I'm kind of surprised there appear to be so many tradeoffs in ZKP options rather than one clearly best way to do it.
08:11:11 <int-e> . o O ( that often happens when you solve an impossible problem )
08:13:04 <Hooloovo0> I took a class from Andrew Miller on applied crypto
08:13:33 <shachaf> Can you transfer a full understanding of nzsnarks directly into my brain?
08:14:28 * Hooloovo0 goes to study the scribbled class notes
08:15:01 <int-e> . o O ( one should be able to teach those while having zero knowledge of the topic )
08:15:41 <ski> (Hooloovo0 : the laying still thing, i mean)
08:17:56 <Hooloovo0> I'm interested if it's similar to my own experience or if there's some qualitative differences
08:18:31 <ski> occasionally, my heart can sometimes start beating heavily, for no discernable reason
08:19:52 <ski> it can be hard to maintain a relaxed attention thing. not paying particular attention to breathing, to heart, to visual (non-)input, &c.
08:20:40 <ski> in some cases, i've layed, thinking about some mathy/logicy/programmingy problem, and after awhile noticed the sensory world has just faded away
08:21:33 <ski> some times, i've tried counting up (sometimes in hexadecimal) (at a sortof irregular pace), in order to keep mind busy, balancing at sleep's edge
08:23:40 <ski> occasionally, i've had these weird momentary visual impressions of some kind of scene (i'm pretty sure i didn't accidentally open my eyes), however, disappeared too quickly for me to get any bearings on what's in the scene. i've wondered whether that's a hypnagogic hallucination, but if it is, i suspect it's not the usual kind
08:24:35 <Hooloovo0> I'm not sure there is a 'usual hypnagogic'
08:24:39 <ski> (relevant here is perhaps that i don't think i'm a visual thinker, i have a hard time visualizing anything at all. i think maybe i'm thinking "structurally" (in terms of connections ?), perhaps ?)
08:25:26 <esowiki> [[Brachylog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66462&oldid=50788 * A * (-34) Technically Prolog is a 3GL that describes how to achieve a specified result, so does Brachylog, which is inspired by Prolog.
08:25:52 <Hooloovo0> I am definitely a visual thinker, so I'm not sure what non-visual hypnagogicity would be like
08:26:10 <ski> one thing which i'm pondered if it maybe is, is related to WILDs, that i saw someone describe. they'd lay awake, and eventually they'd be "presented" with scenes, which if they "jumped into", they'd become dreams (lucid)
08:27:10 <Hooloovo0> I have only once or twice had lucid dreams... they were ok, I guess?
08:28:17 <ski> (occasionally, i've had a sensation (partly controllable) of "mind being curled up like a piece of paper in a roll, tighter and tighter". not quite sure how to express that)
08:28:23 <shachaf> ski: Did you read the book _Impro_?
08:28:30 <ski> yea, i don't think i've had them many times, either
08:28:37 <ski> shachaf : no, what's it about ?
08:28:51 <shachaf> All sorts of things. But it opens with a discussion of this, I think.
08:29:07 * ski is bad at remembering dreams. should perhaps try setting the alarm clock one hour earlier some time, again
08:29:35 <Hooloovo0> I feel like I've had a similar sensation... but I'm not sure
08:29:47 <Hooloovo0> I was probably not sober at the time
08:30:00 <shachaf> _Impro_ is such a good book.
08:30:40 * ski . o O ( <http://www.hopkinsfan.net/ob/notsnuffy/notsnuffy1.html>,<http://www.hopkinsfan.net/ld/nook/nook1.html>,<http://www.hopkinsfan.net/ld/ced/ced.html>,<http://www.hopkinsfan.net/ob/unlimited/unlimited1.html> )
08:32:15 <shachaf> ski: See the first chapter, _Note on Myself_, starting at page 14.
08:32:29 <ski> (some book i read described working at it "from both ends", trying to get more access to dreams, from an awake state of mind (iirc, some types of meditation), but also trying to get more access to waking thoughts, from a dreaming state of mind)
08:33:04 <ski> "Impro: Improvisation and the Theatre" by Keith Johnstone in 1979 ?
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08:35:50 <esowiki> [[Deklare]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66463&oldid=66176 * A * (+1369) How do I execute a program?
08:36:29 <ski> (hm, some time ago, someone in another channel was talking a bit about their programming team being send to some improvised drama thing. this person liked it)
08:39:31 <esowiki> [[Deklare]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66464&oldid=66463 * A * (+236)
08:40:22 <esowiki> [[Deklare]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66465&oldid=66464 * A * (+124)
08:50:24 <ski> hm, interesting. thank you
08:50:51 <ski> "I thought of a house, ..." -- i'm not sure i could do that
08:52:23 * ski . o O ( "Aphantasia: Seeing the world without a mind's eye" (TEDx) by Tamara Alireza in 2016 at <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arc1fdoMi2Y>,(questionarie) <https://www.docdroid.net/15ggf/vviq.docx>,"Vividness of Visual Imagery" <https://aphantasia.com/vviq/> )
08:53:14 <shachaf> whoa, this first chapter (20 pages) is so good.
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08:58:29 <shachaf> Also the rest of the book.
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11:49:17 <esowiki> [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66467&oldid=66466 * TwilightSparkle * (+221)
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11:56:08 <esowiki> [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66468&oldid=66467 * A * (+205) /* Turing-Completeness */
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13:07:21 <esowiki> [[User:Saka]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66469&oldid=57563 * Saka * (+81) /* My Languages */
13:46:10 <esowiki> [[Letters++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66470&oldid=65457 * Saka * (+76) /* I/O */
13:48:18 <esowiki> [[Letters++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66471&oldid=66470 * Saka * (+6) /* I/O */
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15:49:40 <arseniiv> “Name of author by Title of book” has some funny scenes though generally it’s too crazy confusingly crazily confusing even for me
15:53:00 <arseniiv> like “I’m going to sell your company to me” one, — “What do you mean? I won’t sell!” — “That’s why I’m going to do it”
15:53:20 <LKoen> "CEO of the future"
15:53:25 <arseniiv> (and then something confusing happens just the next moment)
15:53:35 <LKoen> it's not that confusing
15:53:51 <LKoen> people sell things that don't belong to them all the time
15:54:58 <arseniiv> this, yes, I don’t disagree, ownership is a shady concept
15:55:30 <LKoen> "The international space station, filled with chess-playing Russians and Americans so atrophied they can never return home"
15:55:43 <LKoen> although were the fuck did the European astronauts go?
15:57:02 <arseniiv> anyway I it sat half-read for some time and I’m going to try to finish it maybe
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15:58:48 <LKoen> have you read "House of Leaves", by Mark Z. Danielewski?
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16:03:31 <LKoen> it's... interesting
16:03:35 <LKoen> I think it's pretty good
16:03:45 <LKoen> the format is a bit unusual
16:03:47 <LKoen> and the scenario is really, really unexpected
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16:17:22 <b_jonas> i hear there are entire books written as a single sentence, anyway. => yeah. some of them seem like they're just multiple sentences search-replaced to change sentence ending to semicolons.
16:17:45 <b_jonas> sometimes what I write on irc looks like that too. I should work on writing shorter sentences.
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16:30:00 <LKoen> Marce Proust wrote his books with looooong sentences
16:30:16 <LKoen> sometimes, by the point the sentence ends, I forgot what the beginning of the sentence was about
16:42:33 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> ... thinking that everyone was the same person." => as in http://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html ?
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17:00:31 <imode> (5000) (fizzbuzz) takes 27 seconds. ugh.
17:01:16 <imode> I actually wonder why that is. the interpreter has crazy long pauses between steps.
17:04:02 <b_jonas> how long does 99 beers take?
17:07:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zull]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66472 * MiroslavRD * (+621) Created page with "Zull? More like NULL!!! --~~~~"
17:07:30 <imode> https://repl.it/repls/CompleteSpringgreenSpreadsheet
17:07:37 <imode> here's (100) (fizzbuzz).
17:07:40 <esowiki> [[Brachylog]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66473&oldid=66462 * Salpynx * (+34) Declarative
17:07:42 <imode> it takes 2 seconds.
17:07:52 <b_jonas> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aahY61e38ms Evoland - this is an interesting game, I first saw a run on a GDQ
17:08:38 <imode> 7.47ms to expand all the macros, ~2s to fully run FizzBuzz.
17:09:12 <imode> I saw long pauses between printing when executing it locally and with larger values.
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17:16:06 <esowiki> [[Zull]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66474&oldid=63920 * MiroslavRD * (+112) Added more links, 2 sections, and i don't know what i also did
17:20:53 <b_jonas> `python3 -cfor n in range(1,101):print(("FizzBuzz","Buzz","Fizz",n)[(0<n%3)+2*(0<n%5)],end=" ")
17:20:54 <HackEso> 1 2 Fizz 4 Buzz Fizz 7 8 Fizz Buzz 11 Fizz 13 14 FizzBuzz 16 17 Fizz 19 Buzz Fizz 22 23 Fizz Buzz 26 Fizz 28 29 FizzBuzz 31 32 Fizz 34 Buzz Fizz 37 38 Fizz Buzz 41 Fizz 43 44 FizzBuzz 46 47 Fizz 49 Buzz Fizz 52 53 Fizz Buzz 56 Fizz 58 59 FizzBuzz 61 62 Fizz 64 Buzz Fizz 67 68 Fizz Buzz 71 Fizz 73 74 FizzBuzz 76 77 Fizz 79 Buzz Fizz 82 83 Fizz Buzz 86 Fizz 88 89 FizzBuzz 91 92 Fizz 94 Buzz Fizz 97 98 Fizz Buzz
17:24:51 <esowiki> [[Sashleyfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66475&oldid=66402 * MiroslavRD * (+154)
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18:32:25 <kspalaiologos> is there a binary lambda calculus tutorial somewhere around the web
18:32:33 <kspalaiologos> for someone who has barely ever programmed pure FP
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18:33:39 <kspalaiologos> something that will help me understanding the concept
18:33:56 <kspalaiologos> I've been looking for assemblers too, but it seems like I'm out of luck
18:37:00 <b_jonas> a tutorial is a writeup about burritos I think
18:37:03 <shachaf> My tutorial is as follows: 1. Learn regular lambda calculus. 2. Learn binary lambda calculus.
18:37:17 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: I recommend David Madore's old unlambda writeup
18:37:35 <b_jonas> www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/
18:37:43 <b_jonas> http://www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/
18:37:51 <imode> what's the esolang that has the simplest possible implementation (not necessarily language).
18:38:05 <imode> I recall one being 6 instructions worth of- yeah something like that.
18:38:33 <b_jonas> imode: that's not a well-defined question, but Three-Star Programmer and Waterfall Model are candidates
18:38:58 <kspalaiologos> https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/MerseneTuringCompletness/blob/master/SeedProof.tex#L581
18:39:28 <b_jonas> also probably bytepusher, but I hate it
18:39:45 <b_jonas> it's one of my enemy esolangs, like brainfuck
18:40:07 <b_jonas> "<oerjan> . o O ( some day i will be the last cis male in this channel. )" => after you get rid of me, obviously
18:40:41 <b_jonas> pikhq: wait, so what gender are you now?
18:41:22 <imode> kspalaiologos: I don't know what this is.
18:41:27 <b_jonas> I don't think we'll run out of cis males, because we get replaced by more young cis males that grow up
18:41:55 <b_jonas> I'm more afraid of the scenario when trans people become the majority so the standards flip upside down, and we'll be the weird ones
18:41:56 <kspalaiologos> the rest of the document won't probably help you much xd
18:42:02 <b_jonas> but I think even that would be a win for us
18:43:53 <imode> bytepusher is a game console using bytebytejump?
18:44:29 <imode> . o O ( how fast does it run... )
18:44:35 <kspalaiologos> and binary lambda calculus is still something I'm too stupid for
18:44:56 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: why is that concerning? I made an assembler for an OISC too, to be able to use symbolic names that work even if I insert or delete words
18:45:03 <pikhq> b_jonas: I think, realistically, that is very far off
18:45:23 <kspalaiologos> b_jonas, well, bytebytejump is a hard thing to get right
18:45:27 <pikhq> We're only like 0.6% of the overall population
18:45:45 <imode> is BBJ turing complete due to lookup tables?
18:46:08 <imode> wait, BBJ can't be TC..
18:46:10 <b_jonas> pikhq: who are "we"? trans people, or trans females? and do you count infants into the population?
18:47:11 <imode> wtf is the "structured" equivalent of BBJ.
18:47:37 <imode> that I'm not surprised at, you need so many lookup tables.
18:48:02 <b_jonas> pikhq: is there a census on this? I'd like to know the ratio of trans males vs trans females, because it seems like I hear more of trans females somehow, which is weird
18:48:26 <imode> you can't really have a "structured" equivalent of BBJ, because there's.. no conditional machinery.
18:49:07 <pikhq> There's relatively few stats on it. I would suspect it's 50/50, and you're biased by the spaces you occupy, _buuut_ there's very limited actual studies.
18:49:28 <b_jonas> pikhq: yes, I'm quite likely biased, which is why I'd like to know
18:50:16 <pikhq> https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/How-Many-Adults-Identify-as-Transgender-in-the-United-States.pdf is one of the better demographic studies we've got
18:50:37 <kspalaiologos> I've experienced that there are more mtf than ftm honestly
18:52:48 <b_jonas> pikhq: that gives a split by age, which is useful, but not a split by genders
18:52:53 <pikhq> You're in tech. We're overrepresented because cis men are overrepresented.
18:54:51 <zzo38> I don't really know or care too much how many trans people it is, I think if that is what they want to do, OK; but, I think that it can confuse the language in some cases, and I also think that this "gender identity" shouldn't be needed. One suggestion I have seen is for "man" and "woman" to be social but for "male" and "female" to be biological; that helps a bit, I suppose.
18:55:17 <imode> y'know, I like that distinction.
18:55:25 <b_jonas> obviously I only know when people tell that they are trans, so for most trans people I probably don't know that they are trans because I don't care
18:56:05 <b_jonas> so the more trans female is just among people who write on the internet that they are trans female and I read it
18:56:25 <pikhq> zzo38: I think that's oversimplifying things intensely, and betrays an unfamiliarity with how this shit works
18:56:56 <pikhq> b_jonas: It appears the institute that did that study is now trying to do a better demographic survey now.
18:57:08 <pikhq> According to them, it will be the _first_ such demographic survey ever done.
18:57:14 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, it is simplifying it. You can have sex change too, so you can be a kind of hybrid, too. (You can also be born as a hybrid of male and female; it does happen.)
18:58:08 <pikhq> zzo38: Additionally, much of what we think of "biological sex" is, uh, purely hormonal.
18:58:26 <imode> you cannot take enough hormones to turn your penis into a vagina.
18:58:36 <imode> so no, it really isn't.
18:58:55 <pikhq> imode: Developmentally speaking, your penis was once a vagina, and then testosterone happened.
18:58:59 <zzo38> But, I think that even if a person is a "man" and not a "woman", if they are biologically female (or had the functions of such) at the time their child was born, then they are that child's mother. And if (hypothetically) someone can manage to change their biological sex enough from female to male later and have another child as the male function, then they can be one person's mother and another person's father.
18:59:20 <imode> pikhq: I'm pretty sure I'm a male because of my chromosomes.
18:59:23 <pikhq> zzo38: The mere act of "defining biologically female" is itself _much_ more difficult than you think.
18:59:38 <pikhq> imode: Orly? Have you actually had a karyotype done?
18:59:53 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_chromosome basic biology.
19:00:21 <imode> if you wanna argue gender identity, whatever. but biology is biology.
19:00:35 <pikhq> imode: Bio 102: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testis-determining_factor
19:00:52 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I know it is more complicated (I don't know all of the details, but I know it is more complicated than the simplified version I mentioned)
19:01:11 <pikhq> imode: TLDR: shut up, you don't know what you're talking about, you're just being an ass.
19:01:13 <imode> congratulations, that doesn't change your genetic makeup.
19:01:29 <imode> TL;DR stop discussing this in this channel.
19:01:34 <pikhq> imode: Unless you have actually had a genetic test, you don't even know what your genetic makeup is.
19:01:46 <pikhq> imode: Oh fuck off.
19:02:32 <pikhq> You're the one who's being offensive and self-righteous. That you are upsetting me intentionally in this way is _your_ fault.
19:02:43 <imode> have fun on ignore.
19:03:02 <pikhq> ops: Do we have a policy on offensive BS?
19:03:49 <j4cbo> “but chromosomes” is a pretty low quality argument tbh
19:04:08 <zzo38> Maybe much of it is purely hormonal, but there is also genetics, and perhaps other stuff, so, it is complicated. I don't know how it works though; I am not a biologist. But, I think that chromosomes are probably a part of it.
19:04:08 <b_jonas> sorry, I didn't wnat to start that
19:04:44 <pikhq> zzo38: They are -- ish. There's a gene that is commonly on the Y chromosome that triggers the production of certain hormones that triggers a large pile of other phenotypical changes.
19:04:51 <zzo38> (And, a X chromosome, is, normally, something that both male and female will have.)
19:04:54 <pikhq> It's actually _stunningly_ complicated.
19:05:09 <pikhq> And there's plenty of ways for it to go screwy.
19:05:11 <zzo38> OK, I believe you.
19:05:26 <zzo38> (even if I do not understand it completely)
19:05:37 <pikhq> For instance, the gene is only _usually_ on the Y chromosome. It moves over to the X sometimes. There's literally XX cis men walking around.
19:06:54 <zzo38> Yes, OK. I didn't know that, but, OK.
19:06:57 <j4cbo> biological sex is complicated but at least it is amenable to scientific inquiry
19:07:18 <pikhq> j4cbo: Gender identity is too -- people are real, even if they're fuzzy and harder to measure. :)
19:07:27 <imode> the concentration of mentally ill people on IRC never ceases to amaze me.
19:08:13 <j4cbo> pikhq: identity sure, but societal expectations and roles are impossibly complicated
19:08:28 <zzo38> (It seems to me that such thing as "XX cis men" might be a kind of hybrid, since "XX" is supposed to designate female, but in this case they are otherwise male; but, I don't really know what the proper definitions are, so I may be wrong.)
19:08:43 <pikhq> So's physics. I hear physics is a well-established field.
19:09:02 <pikhq> zzo38: The sex-determining region Y is more-or-less the only functional content of the Y chromosome.
19:09:18 <j4cbo> physics is measurable in ways that culture is not
19:09:38 <pikhq> Which is why sociology is hard.
19:10:12 <pikhq> But it's real, so you can _do_ science on it. Just... hopelessly difficult, so expect to spend all your time on establishing basic results.
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19:12:03 * pikhq is beginning to see why some other former regulars abandoned this channel
19:14:36 <j4cbo> Freenode’s “ops should not wear hats” thing is unhelpful imo
19:15:24 <pikhq> j4cbo: Yeah, it makes it difficult to decide who to escalate a conflict over what is appropriate discussion in a channel to.
19:16:12 <imode> if you mean take particular sides in a discussion, no, they really shouldn't. discussions and disagreements happen all the time.
19:16:20 <j4cbo> imode: “ops should not have +o except when actively using it”
19:16:39 <pikhq> Is imode an op? Please say no
19:16:44 <j4cbo> which leads to a... unmoderated atmosphere
19:17:20 <imode> I don't feel strongly one way or the other. I guess it's more relaxed in some places but I've never had a problem knowing who the ops are.
19:17:22 <pikhq> "An op's conduct is incompatible with what I think is appropriate for this channel" is not a pleasant discussion to have.
19:17:33 <b_jonas> j4cbo: our channel operators are fizzie, oerjan and ais523. same as the wiki moderators. you can tell that from NICKSERV ACCESS #esoteric LIST. the hats don't matter.
19:17:50 <imode> welcome to #esoteric, where the languages are weird and the hats don't matter.
19:18:24 <b_jonas> but I think this is the sort of discussion that you can just walk away from, it doesn't need ops
19:19:26 <pikhq> b_jonas: I am inclined to disagree. It's pretty... Incompatible with me being welcome here at all.
19:19:30 <imode> is pikhq trying to get me banned or something for disagreeing with them. if so, that's amazing.
19:19:39 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AnimaLibera * New user account
19:20:09 <zzo38> I think that you can temporarily ignore the IRC if you do not like it and later you can discuss something else on this IRC. Since, we discuss other stuff on this IRC, too.
19:20:09 <b_jonas> pikhq: I mean, it's a discussion that will die down in a few hours if you ignore it, and it isn't interwoven with some other important discussion that you can't miss at the same time
19:20:14 <j4cbo> imode: i think your comments have gone substantially beyond “disagreeing”
19:20:38 <j4cbo> the “mentally ill” remarks
19:20:43 <imode> not related to this channel.
19:20:57 <zzo38> Even if you do want to ignore some discussion when reading the logs, if they are a discussion by different people, you could use grep, perhaps
19:20:59 <imode> not even related to this server.
19:21:12 <pikhq> b_jonas: Yeah, calling me "mentally ill" is straight-up insulting me for who I am.
19:21:24 <j4cbo> imode: it did not read that way
19:21:30 <imode> sorry you parsed it that way.
19:21:45 <imode> should have probably qualified. the discussion ended for me on "have fun on ignore."
19:21:59 <b_jonas> pikhq: yes, I do realize. so ignore the whole discussion. unlike on a high-traffic channel where you have to separate threads, you can easily skip over them.
19:22:23 <pikhq> b_jonas: This is about as inappropriate as calling someone a "f****t"
19:22:30 <imode> maybe everybody needs to just step away from their computers and take a walk.
19:22:48 <j4cbo> “stop discussing this in this channel” is also not your call to make
19:23:06 <imode> that I'll accept. was an opinion and shouldn't have come across as an order.
19:23:15 <j4cbo> imode: so maybe the only one who needs to step away is... you?
19:23:24 <imode> pretty comfortable where I am, actually.
19:23:27 <pikhq> Maybe I should join every other trans person who's ever been in this channel and leave. (there have been several)
19:23:47 <b_jonas> no, all of you should step away. I wasn't specific about who.
19:24:43 <j4cbo> anyway I’m out for now
19:24:51 <b_jonas> and return a few hours later, but after a random amount of time so you don't return all at the same time (which is a proven working strategy on all our ethernet and wifi networks), by which time we'll forget about this
19:25:00 <b_jonas> but I'm sorry again for starting this
19:32:50 * pikhq will run off to scream into a pillow for a few hours
19:38:05 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66476&oldid=66459 * AnimaLibera * (+229)
19:40:03 <esowiki> [[User:AnimaLibera]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66477 * AnimaLibera * (+33) Created page with " Comming soon (before October 30)"
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19:45:06 <HackEso> Ronald Reagan was an actor so great that he managed to convince the US that he was the President. Then he created the Star Wars project to destroy the Soviet Union.
19:45:09 <HackEso> Star Wars was a missile defence system invented by Ronald Reagan. With it, he managed to destroy the Soviet Union, then rode into the sunset.
19:45:11 <HackEso> In ancient history, the Soviet Union used to be the THEM. They believed in absurd principles like "Better Red than Dead". Then Ronald Reagan invented Star Wars to destroy it, after which there seemed to be no the THEM for a while.
19:45:21 <HackEso> The Daystar is an unscientific myth of a bright orb glowing in the sky outside only at the times you're in your office.
19:45:23 <HackEso> The Nightstars are an unscientific myth of a sky covered in faint flickering lights. Only hermits and superstitious farmers believe this.
19:45:43 <HackEso> A BOFH is a bastard operator from hell. An example is the == operator in PHP.
19:46:32 <b_jonas> ah yes, one of those was created by me
19:51:38 <HackEso> 303) <monqy> my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I become the chicken and I really want to make soup
20:01:05 * pikhq didn't even realize initially -- imode misgendered her, too
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20:24:58 <b_jonas> ``` sed -i '21,$d' share/8ballreplies # let's remove those two extra replies
20:25:00 <HackEso> share/8ballreplies//It is certain. \ It is decidedly so. \ Without a doubt. \ Yes definitely. \ You may rely on it. \ As I see it, yes. \ Most likely. \ Outlook good. \ Yes. \ Signs point to yes. \ Reply hazy try again. \ Ask again later. \ Better not tell you now. \ Cannot predict now. \ Concentrate and ask again. \ Don't count on it. \ My reply is no. \ My sources say no. \ Outlook not so good. \ Very doubtful.
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20:33:46 <arseniiv> binary lambda calculus each time reminisces me about Real Fast Nora’s Hair Salon Shear Disaster Download, as they are almost isomorphic but the second one is way more human-readable
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20:44:34 <HackEso> 441) <NihilistDandy> Having only been Catholic in the sense of being baptized that way, I still really like all their silly arcana <NihilistDandy> Judaism has them beat, of course <NihilistDandy> I almost converted just so I could look at my roommate's books
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21:13:50 <kmc> i'm wearing pants
21:13:55 <kmc> i should probably do something about that
21:14:59 * kmc reads scrollback
21:15:05 <kmc> i'm not sure why people are so hung up on chromosomes
21:15:12 <kmc> they are a starting block, a set of blueprints
21:15:27 <kmc> so much of human phenotype is determined by other things
21:15:34 <kmc> b_jonas: the american one
21:15:39 <b_jonas> I wear pants for work all the time
21:16:12 <kmc> en_US("pants") = en_UK("trousers")
21:16:18 <kmc> en_US("underwear") = en_UK("pants")
21:16:18 <b_jonas> sometimes long jeans, sometimes short jeans
21:16:26 <kmc> this is one of many fun things I've learned from watching British TV
21:16:35 <b_jonas> I specifically asked them about dress code
21:16:55 <b_jonas> they basically said that since I'm a software guy, I can wear whatever I want
21:16:56 <kmc> the best one is probably that "fanny" is a very mild term for butt in the US whereas in the UK it means vulva
21:17:07 <kmc> so I bet they are amused by "fanny packs"
21:17:18 <b_jonas> hardware guys sometimes need protective equipment when installing stuff on site
21:17:31 <kmc> b_jonas: i heard a story that Google in its earlier years once had "pajama day" at work, and the posters said "wear what you wear to bed!"
21:17:35 <kmc> so a lot of people showed up naked.
21:17:37 <pikhq> kmc: I think it's because some people get caught up on this idea that everything has to be easy, clear-cut, and simple to classify‚ and rather than change this notion when confronted with claims to the contrary they just rage when someone observes something that conflicts with the model.
21:17:43 <kmc> after that, no pajama day
21:17:45 <kmc> pikhq: yep
21:17:54 <b_jonas> kmc: that sounds like a hoax
21:17:59 <kmc> pikhq: and gender *seems* very simple if you don't personally have to deal with any of the corner cases
21:18:20 <kmc> i certainly didn't appreciate how complicated it is until about 5 years ago
21:18:32 <kmc> b_jonas: maybe. I heard it from a friend who works with a HR person who used to be HR at Google
21:18:40 <kmc> it's probably exaggerated at least
21:18:59 <pikhq> Knowing Google, I practically guarantee at least _one_ person actually did that.
21:19:09 <fizzie> Our team had an (optional) "formal Friday" a handful of times.
21:19:11 <pikhq> It probably wasn't widespread though.
21:19:24 <pikhq> fizzie: I advise you read scrollback
21:19:31 <b_jonas> pikhq: no, I mean they wouldn't make the mistake of advertising it as "wear what you wear to bed" without disclaimers
21:20:31 <imode> the question is, what were the consequences of showing up naked, apart from a probable escort from the campus.
21:20:40 <kmc> imode: they got free Google swag to wear for the day.
21:20:47 <kmc> the idea of working somewhere with a dress code is much less horrifying now that I can wear girl clothes
21:20:52 <kmc> girl clothes are so much more interesting
21:20:53 <imode> that's incentivizing nudity.
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21:23:06 <imode> honestly from the stories I've heard about people's first few months (and last) at positions in Google, I wouldn't be surprised that someone took that a little far.
21:23:50 <imode> had a friend of a friend who worked at FB. they got into a probation program the first week for not showing up, and then coasted the next 5 months until they were fired, but secured an offer one month prior to firing.
21:23:53 <imode> and did the same damn thing.
21:26:21 <b_jonas> at one point during university, I attended some lectures in SZTAKI. its building has the dress code of long pants required.
21:26:53 <imode> is it dog friendly, and does the dress code apply to animals.
21:27:06 <b_jonas> I don't know, I've never seen dogs in there
21:28:21 <b_jonas> also at my previous job we had some special events where the interns, after a quarter year long internship, give a short presentation about what they did at the company. that event required formal clothes. they forgot to tell me before the first time they held that event. I never went to the rest of them after that.
21:28:47 <imode> formal dress is stupid.
21:29:28 <b_jonas> I don't think formal dress is stupid, but requiring it for that event is stupid
21:30:36 <arseniiv> requiring the commonly used formal dress for many events is stupid, I’d specify
21:31:05 <imode> yeah, there's only a certain set of events imo that it's appropriate for.
21:31:15 <imode> and even then that's probably just cultural conditioning.
21:31:28 <b_jonas> or a wedding where you're an offical
21:31:50 <imode> remind me to mandate crocs at my wedding.
21:32:26 <arseniiv> we had that at school rrr (not university, *that* would be the worst and I’d not go there at all, then)
21:33:20 <b_jonas> arseniiv: crocs mandated at school?
21:33:50 <b_jonas> or is "rrr" some kind of event, like a prom?
21:34:14 <arseniiv> so atm I don’t have any suits, formal pants and white shirts etc., though the tie remains in the closed
21:34:52 <b_jonas> I consider that much worse
21:35:00 <b_jonas> a uniform, as opposed to just ordinary formal clothes
21:35:09 <b_jonas> because you can choose the formal clothes to whatever you like
21:35:20 <b_jonas> but for a uniform, you have much fewer choice
21:35:48 <b_jonas> I do have formal clothes, but I haven't worn them since a friend's wedding in I think 2014
21:36:39 <b_jonas> this is the advantage of being a software guy with no people skills who thus never meets clients
21:37:36 <kmc> imode: are you getting married?
21:37:37 <b_jonas> actually I haven't worn it since my brother's wedding in 2013
21:37:42 <b_jonas> the other wedding was in 2012
21:37:46 <imode> kmc: next year, yeah.
21:38:19 <kmc> congratulations
21:38:25 <kmc> I got married once, 10/10 highly recommend
21:38:35 <b_jonas> so you're talking about an actual wedding, not just hypothetically
21:38:44 <b_jonas> will the wedding be outside? because crocs could be inconvenient
21:39:13 <imode> lmao, I'm waiting on the results from a job interview before we bother planning. it's been 10 years, so we figured we'd tie the knot.
21:41:06 <imode> it'll probably be a small thing along the coast. our families suck, sans our immediate family.
21:41:18 <b_jonas> will people dance in crocs?
21:41:26 <imode> if I have my way, yes.
21:41:52 <arseniiv> kmc: 10/10 highly recommend => lol
21:42:27 <kmc> we didn't do a full blown wedding, though
21:42:38 <kmc> got married under the dome at sf city hall
21:42:41 <kmc> one witness
21:42:49 <kmc> was kind of a spur of the moment thing
21:42:50 <imode> that's the way to go. my sister did that.
21:43:34 <arseniiv> I don’t understand weddings with a crowd of people too
21:44:06 <kmc> we were already promised to each other for life but didn't feel the need to make it official until 2015 when some personal shit went down
21:44:39 <kmc> the most immediate reason was that she wanted to be legally allowed to make decisions for me if I ended up in the hospital again
21:45:03 <kmc> so getting officially married was a practical thing, but has turned out to be more emotionally significant than either of us expected
21:45:16 <kmc> we had already been living together for 4 years
21:46:06 <kmc> the weddings with big parties are fun, at least if you're not the one organizing and paying for it
21:46:14 <kmc> i was maid of honor at my best friend's destination wedding in mexico
21:46:16 <kmc> it was a blast
21:46:51 <fizzie> Read some of the scrollback. TBH, the "mentally ill" part is really hard to accept as unrelated to the preceding conversation, given the timing and context. I think it's also a comment we wouldn't mind classifying as unacceptable, so please don't do that sort of thing.
21:46:54 <imode> that sounds awesome. and yeah, a lot of people get married for that reason and that reason only. that's a large motivation for us as well: we'll probably have an "official ceremony" and then have the actual wedding after it, mainly for insurance purposes.
21:48:28 <imode> fizzie: if you parse it that way, sure, I won't say that. bear in mind it was about something on QuakeNet.
21:49:07 <b_jonas> imode: is the crocs thing because you or your partner have a family member who you really want to keep away from the wedding, but you don't dare to just refuse to invite them, so you make a rule that they'll never comply with, and rather not attend the wedding than wear crocs for it?
21:49:22 <b_jonas> or is it to just keep most people away in general, to make the wedding smaller, without any specific target?
21:49:34 <imode> more of a parody of what one considers formal attire.
21:49:36 <pikhq> fizzie: After saying "them" to refer to me after my pronouns were made very clear, I think it is pretty unambiguous what imode's intent was. Particularly in context.
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21:53:14 <b_jonas> the latest xkcd uses "AM". that's weird
21:53:41 <imode> especially considering launches are 24h.
21:54:19 <b_jonas> after https://www.xkcd.com/1179/ that is
22:03:11 <arseniiv> (BTW in any case anybody wouldn’t like what personal pronoun I’d use please tell me explicitly, by PM or not, as I would likely been just forgotten or hadn’t watched with attention; so there be no feelings hurt)
22:03:49 <pikhq> arseniiv: Innocent mistakes are perfectly fine, FWIW
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22:12:55 * kmc is she/her as well
22:13:43 <kmc> imode: yeah, my friends did the official, legal wedding in SF with a small group of friends and then the bigger wedding in mexico for extended friends and family, the following year
22:13:59 <kmc> for one I think maybe it's tricky to get a US marriage certificate if you're married in a foreign country
22:14:46 <kmc> some channels have a bot that lets you set/query pronouns, which is kind of nice
22:15:00 <b_jonas> why is it tricky to get a marriage certificate?
22:15:09 <kmc> cause the wedding happened in a foreign country?
22:15:12 <kmc> i'm not sure though
22:15:14 <kmc> just speculating
22:15:51 <kmc> in california anybody can officiate a wedding after filling out a form. so the first wedding in SF was done by our friend, wearing a pope costume he got off of Amazon
22:16:22 <kmc> afterwards we grilled steaks and drank to the wee hours
22:16:40 <imode> that sounds blissful.
22:16:44 <pikhq> In Colorado the parties to a marriage are the only required signatures.
22:16:44 <kmc> it was great
22:17:20 <kmc> my wife and I are thinking about doing a wedding-style celebration maybe next year, for our 5th anniversary
22:17:30 <kmc> though it happens to be right around my grandma's 100th birthday so we don't want to upstage her
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22:17:42 <imode> make it a combo! :P
22:18:09 <kmc> in california the marriage form doesn't ask for gender (now that same-sex marriage is legal) but there is a box for each partner (only two partners allowed, sadly) to optionally check "husband" or "wife"
22:18:18 <kmc> as far as I know those checkboxes have no official meaning
22:18:34 <b_jonas> only one partner can check?
22:18:38 <kmc> and they're just on there to satisfy traditionalists
22:18:42 <kmc> no, each partner can check either
22:18:44 <pikhq> I'd have to doublecheck, but I think CO just completely removed them from the form
22:19:24 <kmc> part of me thinks poly marriage should be legal but the other part of me thinks the government should get out of the marriage game entirely
22:19:41 <kmc> most of the rights of marriage can also be established through contract law
22:20:08 <kmc> the privilege of not having to testify against your spouse can't, but it's also pretty weak from what I understand
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22:20:19 <arseniiv> kmc: but the other part of me thinks the government should get out of the marriage game entirely => me exactly
22:20:22 <zzo38> I should think having "husband" and "wife" on the form would be unnecessary, although maybe it would be helpful if you have a formal ceremony, I don't know
22:20:40 <zzo38> I think that poly marriage should be legal if everyone involved is in agreement with it.
22:20:50 <arseniiv> for example what if I trust a close friend but have no soulmate and suddenly fall ill
22:21:16 <arseniiv> I mean, this should be signed as easily
22:21:23 <kmc> zzo38: I think you'd also need forms for adding or removing partners from a poly marriage
22:21:43 <kmc> eventually a marriage may outlive all of the founders!
22:22:00 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, if it is something which you will want to be recognized by government, then it will be needed.
22:22:07 <arseniiv> so it should be a separate procedure, applicable likely to any trusted people: relatives, friends, neighboors
22:22:20 <kmc> poly divorce law sounds like a quite complicated area that will probably exist one day
22:22:24 <kmc> arseniiv: you can do that
22:22:29 <kmc> power of attorney or something
22:22:57 <b_jonas> attorneys have superpowers?
22:23:01 <arseniiv> kmc: yeah it seems less easy as wedding :D so it should be refactored out
22:23:05 <zzo38> That is mainly the reason I was thinking it is too difficult to implement legal poly marriage right away, due to the difficulty with the existing laws. But, it should be corrected, if possible.
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22:25:38 <kmc> I know someone who was preparing to sue for recognition of poly civil partnership under the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal
22:25:50 <kmc> she had lawyers ready to do it pro bono and everything
22:25:59 <zzo38> The form might need a section to mark if you automatically consent in future too, in case you have one or more other spouses already and you do not want to deal with it when further spouses are added, everyone else who doesn't automatically consent in future (at least one is required, but by default it is everyone who must agree to it) to add a further spouse.
22:25:59 <kmc> but then she broke up with her partners :/
22:26:24 <pikhq> kmc: I think most of the regulars here knew her at one point :P
22:26:31 <kmc> pikhq: yeah.
22:27:12 <kmc> zzo38: I would think all partners should explicitly consent when somebody is added
22:27:38 <kmc> but that's based on my personal conception of poly marriage and not necessarily something that should be legally enshrined
22:27:45 <pikhq> Yeah. Legal bonds with non-consenting individuals is a bit fucky
22:27:50 <fizzie> It sounds like what this needs is a blockchain and smart contracts hth
22:28:21 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, I think so too, but sometimes someone might not want to deal with it if they are unable to. So, not dealing with it should only be if you agree ahead of time that someone else can agree for you ahead of time, or if you are dead.
22:28:24 <kmc> I think marriage as a graph should be transitively closed
22:28:33 <b_jonas> fizzie: and cloud technology too
22:28:43 <arseniiv> hm are there schemes for a shared secret that allow expanding the set of participants?
22:28:57 <zzo38> But normally, yes, all current partners (and also the new one) should explicitly consent when somebody is added.
22:29:01 <kmc> in other words a corporation where each member has the same rights
22:29:40 <kmc> arseniiv: good question
22:29:44 <kmc> perhaps ##crypto knows
22:29:54 <zzo38> If you use secret sharing crypotography, and the number of members needed to decrypt does not change, then it is easy to add additional members, I think.
22:30:16 <kmc> zzo38: probably
22:30:21 <kmc> you would pick additional points on the same polynomial
22:30:48 <arseniiv> <kmc> I think marriage as a graph should be transitively closed => and symmetrically too? It would get weird if not, or that state wouldn’t be achievable starting with trans. sym. closed marriages?
22:31:00 <b_jonas> who would compute the information without revealing the secret?
22:31:06 <kmc> afaik a k-of-n shamir share is n points from a (k+1)-dimensional polynomial, over an appropriate field
22:31:08 <b_jonas> without learning the secret that is
22:31:23 <kmc> b_jonas: any quorum could do it
22:31:44 <kmc> if you have a quorum then you can solve for the polynomial
22:31:50 <kmc> I don't know how you pick which points to share.
22:32:04 <kmc> random, I guess.
22:32:13 <arseniiv> (damn, f.lux has gone red and I don’t see text cursor again. A bug in calculating opposite color, I think)
22:34:21 <zzo38> One kind of secret sharing could be you have a secret point, and each member has an equation for a line that passes through that point. The secret point can be found by any two members. Also it means any two members can add a third by making up a new equation of a line passing through that point. If you are careful then it should be unlikely to match someone else's line.
22:36:05 <arseniiv> zzo38: ah, maybe that’s how Shamir scheme was invented? First, hyperplanes, and then a bit or generalization and bam
22:38:12 <arseniiv> hyperplanes grassmannians plücker coordinates
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22:41:39 <b_jonas> kmc: don't you mean a degree k-1 polynomial, on a field with at least n elements?
22:41:54 -!- sprocklem has joined.
22:41:56 <kmc> I think the field should have lots of elements?
22:42:03 <b_jonas> David Madore's crowning achievement on the IOCCC is relevant of course
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22:42:47 <kmc> for starters, the secret itself is a field element
22:44:04 <b_jonas> kmc: no, you can split the secret to multiple chunks, each a field element
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22:44:39 <b_jonas> in particular, David Madore's program uses a 256 element field, and the comments claim that that works for up to 255 parties
22:44:46 <kmc> b_jonas: ok
22:45:56 <kmc> https://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/24983/choosing-finite-field-size-in-shamirs-secret-sharing-scheme
22:46:26 <kmc> I dunnoooo
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22:48:07 <b_jonas> I'd trust that that scheme works, both because it comes from David Madore with docs, and because it's won an IOCCC
22:50:23 <b_jonas> `perl -esub h($){($_=$_[0]=pack b208,0 .unpack b362,$_[0])=~tr/\0-\c?/\0/;tr/\0/\377/c;$_}do{$y=$r;$v=join$r='',a..z;$r^=h$r&"\217"x26^h$v&$y for 0..6;$r^=$_ x26}for"k6sNP2B}({ambrusLB%Ox)Z]n0*zf\0I3"=~/./g;print$r
22:51:22 <b_jonas> this is an old one from https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110 that evaluates a polynomial over GF(128), before that IOCCC entry has won, but a decade after David wrote that program
22:51:30 <b_jonas> https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110
22:52:42 <b_jonas> admittedly GF(128) makes it a bit simpler than GF(256) would be
22:52:47 <b_jonas> so it can only encode ASCII characters
22:55:00 <imode> am I crazy, or does "cp/m" as an address resolve to "cp.com/m"
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22:55:59 <zzo38> I think it doesn't
22:56:00 <b_jonas> imode: browsers have an option to automatically add ".com" if the domain name doesn't exist otherwise
22:56:20 <b_jonas> only when you type into the address bar, not in a link
22:56:39 <imode> it's only for two characters. o_O
22:56:46 <imode> "foo/bar" doesn't work.
22:56:56 <imode> but "fo/bar" does.
22:57:19 <b_jonas> they can also automatically prepend www. and prepend http://
22:57:21 <zzo38> What I prefer is something typed into the address bar is just treated as a relative URL to the current URL, unless it has a colon at first in which case it is a search command
22:57:47 <imode> that I understand. what I don't understand is why it only apparently works with two letters.
22:58:04 <zzo38> Some browsers will automatically prepend the scheme based on what the domain name is. (Still, I think it ought not to automatically prepend any scheme.)
22:58:27 <imode> nevermind, it somehow works with _multiple_ character strings.
22:58:33 <imode> abc/def works, for example.
22:59:27 <imode> it won't do "google/" though
23:18:25 <b_jonas> is it weird that "rose" is used as a color name, when roses are popular flowers that come in all colors you can imagine, sort of like diamonds?
23:19:11 <b_jonas> I mean, "orange" as a color name makes sense
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00:11:56 <kmc> did you know that 'pink' is also named after a flower?
00:12:00 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dianthus_plumarius
00:12:31 <kmc> at least accoring to some
00:12:36 <kmc> as well as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinking_shears
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01:49:30 <esowiki> [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66478&oldid=66468 * TwilightSparkle * (+4217) /* Examples */
01:57:33 <esowiki> [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66479&oldid=66478 * TwilightSparkle * (-50)
02:00:17 <esowiki> [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66480&oldid=66479 * TwilightSparkle * (+17) /* Constants */
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02:20:24 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/bin/8ball
02:20:59 <oerjan> hum that's the wrong one
02:24:18 <pikhq> What a day, what a day
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03:14:01 <oerjan> i note that personal pronouns were involved both here and in the current stackexchange clusterfuck
03:16:11 <HackEso> the them//Information on the THEM has been removed for national security reasons.
03:17:03 * oerjan carefully sidles away from his own brain
03:19:17 * pikhq notes that personal pronouns tend to be, well, important to people
03:22:27 * oerjan may not have sidled far enough
03:22:58 <pikhq> Let's just say that was rather rude of you and leave it at that
03:23:43 <oerjan> my brain has trouble thinking of pronouns seriously now
03:26:45 <oerjan> but i've been half thinking that the sane long-term solution for english is for everyone to standardize on they/them/their, which make your protest against it sort of a mind whiplash. although i can understand how it can still be rude if someone uses it _only_ for non-cis gendered people
03:28:22 <kmc> that is the main case where 'they' would bother me
03:28:39 <zzo38> I sometimes use "they" for anyone, regardless of who they are, anyways
03:28:53 <kmc> i think i'd be okay with someone who used 'they' for everyone
03:29:03 <kmc> although the last time this actually came up, I was not okay with it
03:29:04 <pikhq> Really a matter of context making me go "uuuuh"
03:29:19 <kmc> but that's for complicated reasons arising from personal trauma and i wasn't really being fair to that person anyway
03:31:12 <kmc> it took me a long time to accept that it's okay to think in principle that gender is stupid and should go away, and yet to be assertive about my own gender identity
03:31:20 <kmc> it's one of those ideal world vs real world things
03:32:28 <kmc> the whole thing has been really humbling as far as learning what i can and can't change about myself
03:33:05 <kmc> transitioning is a huge change but it's something we do because we *can't* change who we really are
03:33:40 <pikhq> At a certain point you just get done pretending to be someone else.
03:34:17 <kmc> I think most trans people would much prefer to take a magic pill that makes you happy with your birth gender, but it doesn't exist
03:34:38 <kmc> I don't think I would take that pill, personally
03:34:53 <kmc> (which ironically? makes me "fake trans" to a lot of people, because they can only see this experience through the lens of misery)
03:35:04 <pikhq> It sounds easier. But at the same time, that's a radical change in who you are as a person.
03:35:05 <kmc> i mean for one I think that pill would have to change my personality a whole lot
03:35:15 <kmc> and also well, being trans /is/ very interesting
03:35:33 <kmc> and like I'm in a pretty good position to transition compared to most
03:35:51 <kmc> and I'm some sort of extreme neophile
03:35:53 <kmc> and i've always been a transhumanist
03:36:10 * pikhq is honestly a big ol' scaredy cat :P
03:36:29 <kmc> like, it was really hard for me to start making permanent changes to my body
03:36:34 <kmc> which is v. ironic
03:36:44 <zzo38> Sometimes it isn't clear if you mean singular or plural, so then you shouldn't use "they" (or sometimes also "you", which is also grammatically plural but can also be used singular).
03:36:55 <pikhq> Y'know what's hard? _Shopping_.
03:37:19 <pikhq> zzo38: In such a case it's probably simplest to just rephrase to avoid the use of a pronoun.
03:37:24 <zzo38> (Fortunately, Wizards of the Coast considered that ambiguity when making that change in Magic: the Gathering, so that the ambiguity is avoided.)
03:37:31 <pikhq> Said cases aren't very common, but that's basic writing, ain't it?
03:37:47 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, that is correct, and is what is done in Magic: the Gathering in those few cases.
03:37:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brachylog]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66481 * A * (+1149) Created page with "== Brachylog is not a declarative language == Since Brachylog and Prolog are based on similar paradigms, this proof demonstrates that Prolog is technically not a declarative l..."
03:38:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brachylog]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66482&oldid=66481 * A * (+31) /* Brachylog is not a declarative language */
03:38:16 <zzo38> (Although there are different ways of doing so. The rules for Magic: the Gathering say "that player" is used if "they" is ambiguous.)
03:38:35 <pikhq> Reasonable within that context.
03:38:43 <zzo38> Yes, in that context, it is reasonable.
03:38:49 <zzo38> In other contexts, there is other ways.
03:39:05 <pikhq> e.g. if it's ambiguous in other cases you can just use someone's name.
03:39:27 <pikhq> Like you would if there's multiple "he"s or "she"s and you need to be clear who you're talking about.
03:39:35 <zzo38> Yes, in the cases where their name is known (and not itself ambiguous, which in rare cases it can be).
03:39:56 <pikhq> Always so fuzzy around the edges
03:41:24 <zzo38> I have no problem with singular "they", but I don't like singular "themselves". (The singular should be "themself", like for "you", it will be "yourself" as singular rather than "yourselves", I think.)
03:42:10 <pikhq> I think the jury's out on which one is the grammatical one there.
03:42:37 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, those language always so fuzzy around the edges, is also one of the reason why I don't like Inform7 so much, and also a reason for why I have thought to have a AST-based format for the effect of Magic: the Gathering cards.
03:43:18 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, people use both, although I personally don't like to write "themselves" if it is singular.
03:44:20 <pikhq> "Themselves" still sounds cleaner to my internal sense of things, but that's probably nothing more than pattern matching doing weird things.
03:44:59 <zzo38> Yes, probably, I think
03:45:36 <zzo38> (That is probably why many people use that, I think)
03:45:38 <pikhq> Honestly, I still have a soft spot in my heart for Spivak pronouns.
03:51:26 <kmc> well, we'll see
03:51:38 <kmc> right now it's hard enough to get people to accept singular 'they'
03:51:51 <kmc> even though it goes back to shakespeare if not earlier
03:53:05 <kmc> pikhq: you don't like shopping?
03:53:35 <pikhq> Though there is one (honestly minor) difference between historical and modern use. Historical singular "they" was for an indefinite referent; modern singular "they" extends to definite ones.
03:54:00 <kmc> pikhq: meaning that the use to refer to a specific person is new?
03:54:03 <pikhq> kmc: I like shopping, and since I'm still boy-mode much of the time, am terrified of being caught in public doing so
04:15:36 <zzo38> I have a few question about conlang. One is if you have made fonts for constructed languages (with METAFONT or otherwise; for printer fonts I would probably use METAFONT if I were doing so)? Do some involve sounds not in IPA or X-SAMPA? Are there some with multiple mouth? Are there some with unusual writing directions (e.g. circular or 3D)?
04:16:35 <zzo38> There is also Z-SAMPA, but might any involve stuff not in Z-SAMPA? What effects might physiology have on phonology?
04:17:14 <kmc> pikhq: ah, I see
04:17:31 <zzo38> I noticed that Z-SAMPA uses some Italian words that are used in musical notation.
04:17:55 <pikhq> zzo38: I've never done so, but this is an interesting thing to think about.
04:18:13 <pikhq> A conlang for non-human physiology seems like a space ripe for some interesting experiments.
04:18:45 <kmc> pikhq: a nice thing happened to me today
04:18:55 <kmc> I helped a guy use the parking meter in my neighborhood and he said "wow, you're tall!" several times and at the end thanked me for being a "nice girl"
04:19:34 <kmc> and I didn't even put in particular effort today to look female
04:19:42 <kmc> i was wearing jeans and a men's cut T-shirt
04:20:55 <kmc> so apparently the other stuff (hair, glasses, jewelry, tits?) is enough to overcome the fact that I'm a really really tall woman, at least for some
04:21:14 <kmc> (6'3", specifically)
04:21:33 <pikhq> I mean, if being tall were a problem my entire family would have issues.
04:21:40 <pikhq> My mom's 5'10". She's the short one.
04:21:55 <kmc> it doesn't help, but it's not a dealbreaker
04:25:20 <zzo38> I looked at information about Z-SAMPA, and they mention alternative non-ASCII characters for 8-bit character sets, although there are different 8-bit character sets so you may wish to do differently, such as PC character set.
04:26:05 <zzo38> (Another possibility might be a variant with colours.)
04:27:46 <zzo38> About non-human physiology, one thing I thought is that colour words might be untranslatable (although that is a separate issue from phonology, but it is still a part of the language).
04:28:54 <pikhq> In some cases, only translatable by analogy I suppose.
04:31:06 <pikhq> Though in truth -- color words are sometimes hard to translate even from human languages.
04:32:00 <zzo38> Yes, although in the case I am describing it is even more difficult, I think.
04:33:01 <pikhq> I imagine you're thinking of a species that either has a wider vision range, or (even more difficult) has a vision range that doesn't overlap with ours.
04:33:26 <zzo38> I found a article on Wikipedia about untranslatability.
04:33:34 <pikhq> Though even just having different sensitivity peaks within our vision range probably does odd things to color perception.
04:33:49 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, the former; I didn't think of the latter although of course there is that too.
04:40:51 <zzo38> pikhq: I didn't think of that either, but that is also a good point.
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07:25:14 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66483&oldid=66171 * A * (+1303) /* Sandbox */
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08:41:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainloller]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66484 * MiroslavRD * (+610) Created page with "Braincoaster --~~~~"
08:41:37 <b_jonas> kmc: fuchsia and lavender are named of flowers too
08:42:11 <esowiki> [[Brainfrick]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66485 * MiroslavRD * (+23) Redirected page to [[Brainfuck]]
08:42:37 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66486&oldid=66314 * MiroslavRD * (+12)
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09:27:29 <esowiki> [[User:AnimaLibera]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66487&oldid=66477 * AnimaLibera * (+51)
09:41:24 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66488&oldid=63077 * TwilightSparkle * (+1464) /* List of candidates */
09:55:07 <b_jonas> do we disqualify that featured language candidate because TwilightSparkle didn't read the instructions at the top of that page?
10:02:34 <b_jonas> nah, let's give her a little more time, in case she realizes her mistake and edits
10:04:51 <b_jonas> I should suggest nopfunge as a featured language
10:05:30 <Lykaina> i said i would make twitter-sized cryptoquotes, i just have to figure out how
10:05:53 <b_jonas> what do you mean by "cryptoquote"?
10:06:06 <b_jonas> a quote where it's hard to tell where the quote comes from?
10:06:58 <Lykaina> that are encrypted with a simple substitution cipher
10:07:18 <Lykaina> turns out, easier to break than make
10:08:59 <Lykaina> 26! = 403291461126605635584000000
10:09:20 <Lykaina> and there are so many quotes
10:10:48 <b_jonas> ``` \' | perl -e'$/="";$_=<>;for$c(0..rand(25)){y/A-Za-z/B-ZAb-za/};print'
10:10:48 <HackEso> 930) <svmmvr> Gur bgure qnl (jryy, gur bgure jrrx) zl jvsr jnf naablrq jvgu zr orpnhfr fur unq n qernz jurer V unq tbggra hf cynar gvpxrgf vagb n #rfbgrevp zrrg fbzrjurer va gur zvqqyr bs Terraynaq va gur jvagre, jvgubhg nfxvat ure svefg. Cyhf fur jnfa'g ernyyl vagrerfgrq va n #rfbgrevp zrrg ng nyy, yrg nybar bar va Terraynaq, yrg nybar bar va Terraynaq va jvagregvzr. (V guvax vg'f xvaq bs pbyq gurer?)
10:10:54 <b_jonas> oh, arbitrary substitution one
10:12:12 <b_jonas> ``` \' | perl -e'$/="";$_=<>;use List::Util"shuffle";$c=join("",shuffle("a".."z"));eval"y/a-zA-Z/$c\U$c/";print'
10:12:13 <HackEso> 848) <ttz38> Scj B lq vlabnc Cvgdbjf jhclxck, iua ba bj Elvlmblv Cvgdbjf, vza Ikbabjf Cvgdbjf.
10:12:15 <b_jonas> ``` \' | perl -e'$/="";$_=<>;use List::Util"shuffle";$c=join("",shuffle("a".."z"));eval"y/a-zA-Z/$c\U$c/";print'
10:12:16 <HackEso> 262) <btasmmsd> JDS ejb HS'PP JS MNAS WQ UBBKESIWUPPD FSIWKQI DQNA IKBZ QGWSI
10:12:32 <b_jonas> the "38" is sort of a giveaway
10:13:30 <Lykaina> famous quotes, not chat room quotes...
10:14:00 <b_jonas> or just use the substitution that turns the quote to alphabetically the first, for canonicity
10:14:20 <b_jonas> so you take the first letter to "a", the second unique letter to "b" etc
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11:01:42 <b_jonas> the last o strip was 12 days ago. time to upload the next one.
11:33:00 <esowiki> [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66489&oldid=66480 * A * (+59) /* Constants */
11:38:37 <esowiki> [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66490&oldid=66489 * A * (+19) /* Constants */
11:39:48 <esowiki> [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66491&oldid=66490 * A * (+8) /* Constants */
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11:57:52 <esowiki> [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66493&oldid=66492 * A * (+292) /* Constants */
12:01:53 <esowiki> [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66494&oldid=66493 * A * (+253) /* Constants */
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12:07:32 <esowiki> [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66495&oldid=66494 * A * (+1019) /* Constants */
12:15:44 <esowiki> [[No-code esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66496&oldid=46931 * MiroslavRD * (+20) It's a stub, and this wiki is extremely inactive.
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12:33:56 <esowiki> [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66497&oldid=66495 * A * (+3276) /* Constants */ Thanks!
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13:45:32 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66498&oldid=66488 * TwilightSparkle * (+52)
13:52:21 <esowiki> [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66499&oldid=66497 * TwilightSparkle * (+0) /* Constants */
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14:03:43 <esowiki> [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66500&oldid=66499 * A * (+119)
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14:23:39 <esowiki> [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66501&oldid=66500 * TwilightSparkle * (+2) /* Turing-Completeness */ Very 11+1<
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16:11:52 <esowiki> [[PL/MIX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66502&oldid=57562 * B jonas * (-306)
16:12:26 <b_jonas> fizzie: wiki notification bot missed my edit
16:25:49 <b_jonas> [ 0.0254*12#.6 7 NB. how long is 6 foot and 7 inches?
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17:02:33 <esowiki> [[User:MiroslavRD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66503&oldid=66230 * MiroslavRD * (+33)
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17:36:24 <b_jonas> `8ball Does fungot give better life advice than a Magic 8-ball?
17:36:24 <fungot> b_jonas: forcer says: would " to give somebody something" or " gregor arr"... sort of tripping point is that satisfaction of predicate should be the default.
17:37:26 <esowiki> [[User:MiroslavRD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66504&oldid=66503 * MiroslavRD * (+883)
17:38:22 <b_jonas> fungot, please move the mouse cursor away so it doesn't cover your answer
17:38:22 <fungot> b_jonas: they're expensive.
17:38:33 <b_jonas> what? mouses? no they aren't
17:40:08 <int-e> must be the cursors then, not the mice.
17:42:43 * pikhq sells prime mouse cursors; only $50 per pixel
17:42:44 <kmc> the tripping point
17:43:55 <esowiki> [[Blyat]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66505 * MiroslavRD * (+201) Created page with "'''Blyat''' is a modded Cyrillic++ just to use CS:GO meme terms instead of normal code. [[Category:Stubs]] [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:Weirdlangs]] Category:Turing-co..."
17:44:03 <int-e> pikhq: didn't that happen?
17:44:21 <esowiki> [[Blyat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66506&oldid=66505 * MiroslavRD * (+29)
17:44:59 <int-e> pikhq: close enough, I think: http://www.milliondollarhomepage.com/
17:45:55 <int-e> (wow that looks so terrible)
17:46:23 <pikhq> Pretty awesome bit though.
17:48:22 <int-e> That was 2005. Time's passing so quickly.
17:49:58 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Million_Dollar_Homepage#Survival ... there are "studies" about this page!
17:50:15 <pikhq> Time is an illusion that helps things make sense... :)
17:55:49 <esowiki> [[Human's mind have sex with someone]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66507 * MiroslavRD * (+5479) Created page with "'''Human's mind have sex with someone''' is a stupid Brainfuck, where it uses unabbreviated commands instead of abbreviated symbols. == Commands == * Move the pointer to the..."
17:58:06 <int-e> b_jonas: ^^ this is your time to shine with another rant.
17:58:27 <pikhq> BF derivatives aren't clever? :)
17:58:28 <esowiki> [[Human's mind have sex with someone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66508&oldid=66507 * MiroslavRD * (+133)
18:00:03 <int-e> Let's wait for the inevitable quine, I mean program that prints its own source code.
18:01:05 <b_jonas> int-e: huh? why? just because it's a brainfuck-derivative?
18:04:35 <b_jonas> int-e: ok. my usual rant is that while those supposed esoteric languages are stupid, the wiki is serving its originally intended purpose that it's attracting people away from places that we want those people to spam less, like wikipedias.
18:05:22 <b_jonas> a language with the semantics of Ook! and the syntax of Real fast Nora's is not particularly innovative, but it makes more sense than some of the "languages" that people write pages about
18:05:50 <b_jonas> at least it's well-defined enough that you could write programs in it, if the aliens with the big guns demanded that from you
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18:24:48 <ais523> oddly, the BF derivative shovelware ended up serving a "useful" purpose, in that CGCC started writing polyglots with all the syntax-substituted brainfucks
18:25:30 <b_jonas> that's not a useful purpose, and it's not like they were going to run out of languages usable for programming
18:26:00 <ais523> the megapolyglot often seems to be on the verge of running out of languages that can be made to fit
18:26:25 <b_jonas> not just smaller polyglots
18:27:22 <ais523> right, the esolangs.org community is thinking "surely we have enough BF derivatives already?", and CGCC has fit in 277 languages into a polyglot and thus is often on the verge of running out
18:27:38 <ais523> BF substitutions tend to be easy to fit in due to having simple semantics and ignoring most of the program
18:28:35 <ais523> and that 277 includes a lot of very closely related languages, such as slightly different Haskell command lines
18:30:53 <b_jonas> yeah, some people on code golf count python1 as a separate programming language from python2
18:35:24 <b_jonas> random observations from my vacation to NRW. in Dortmund, there's an U-Bahn (tube, metro) station where there's a platform on both sides of the train, the train doors open on both sides at the same time, people get on on one side and off on the other side. this is an interesting solution for a high traffic stop that I hadn't seen anywhere else. I like it.
18:35:30 <ais523> everyone should according to their rules
18:35:56 <ais523> their definition of a "language" is very precise, things like the Windows version of Perl 5.26 and the Linux version of Perl 5.26 are different languages…
18:36:15 <ais523> although the rules end up breaking down when you take them to the logical extremes, most people other than me avoid those
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18:37:31 <b_jonas> well sure. I've worked with perl on windows, including trying to port my own script from windows-native perl to msys perl. perl is so incompatible with itself that you can consider any version a different version from itself.
18:39:33 <b_jonas> like, there used to be a windows-specific bug in perl when you called glob with multiple arguments
18:40:13 <b_jonas> and it's not just about the parts that are different because they access some functionality where the underlying system calls work differently
18:40:35 <ais523> didn't old versions of Perl implement glob using the shell?
18:42:20 <ais523> "Netscape Navigator 9 with JavaScript disabled"
18:42:30 <ais523> (actual language inside the polyglot)
18:47:55 <b_jonas> what makes it strange is how new contributors test the code in all those weird languages
18:48:43 <ais523> I pretty much gave up once it got past the scope of what TIO could handle
18:52:46 <b_jonas> have they added a pair of languages that are two very similar versions of a 90s game console, and the difference between them is detected from the timing of the sound chip or the diskette drive, so you can only test it on real hardware with an eprom cart, because the emulator doesn't emulate the speed of different diskette drives realistically?
18:54:55 <ais523> actually there's a surprising lack of machine codes
18:55:04 <ais523> (there's at least one, but you'd expect more)
18:55:14 <ais523> I think there's a desire not to add any languages with a hard size limit
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18:55:52 <b_jonas> even when the hard size limit is larger than the 32 kilobyte or 64 kilobyte post size limit of SE?
18:57:41 <ais523> we could always start compressing it in the post
18:58:07 <ais523> SE allows "Stack Snippets" which are basically a TC post syntax (based on JavaScript), and they're already being used to collapse the polyglots to save space on the page
18:58:35 <ais523> so as long as you can compress it and the post to less than the post size - decompressor size, it should be OK
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19:03:28 <ais523> wow, RainbowRabbit left quickly
19:03:40 <ais523> normally on IRC you have to wait a bit if you want to see whether anyone's around
19:05:02 <b_jonas> in Köln, in the city center, lampposts were coated with what feels like some sort of silicone substance, probably against grafitti
19:07:05 <b_jonas> also, in Dortmund, everything is closed on Sunday, which is pretty annoying to me
19:08:33 <ais523> Sunday rules in the UK are weird
19:08:46 <ais523> major/large shops are not allowed to open more than 8 hours on a Sunday
19:08:51 <b_jonas> we had about a year when we had government rules for Sunday too
19:08:54 <ais523> but small shops can open for as long as they like
19:09:04 <ais523> major supermarkets often have small spinoffs to get around this rule
19:09:26 <b_jonas> yeah, I think we had exceptions for small shops too
19:11:17 <b_jonas> I think that was the rule because it matched their stated purpose with the rule, which was to protect workers who may not want to work on Sunday but were too powerless against their employees -- though people believed there was a less obvious selfish political purpose in the backgroun
19:11:51 <pikhq> Probably historically there was a religious justification to it.
19:12:33 <b_jonas> yeah, that was certainly part of what they played for
19:12:39 <ais523> I think in the UK it was originally a religious thing that got repurposed (without necessarily undermining the original reason)
19:13:09 <b_jonas> but I don't think religion has much to do with the general idea that people should have a rest on some days of the week
19:14:09 <b_jonas> that's the sort of thing that both religious and anti-religious governments promised because people like it
19:14:27 <pikhq> Some religions do promote it, but it has been fairly common in a wide variety of societies, yeah
19:15:12 <b_jonas> right. it's like not murdering people. religions promote it as a rule too, but so do anti-religious people
19:17:24 <b_jonas> ah right, we just had an smbc on that
19:20:08 <zzo38> I think the rule should be, avoid making too much noise outside on Sunday. But otherwise you can do stuff if you want to do, just as well as other days of the week.
19:20:59 <zzo38> (With one exception, perhaps: The bells that tell the time on the clock will still be allowed.)
19:22:08 <b_jonas> the northern part of Dortmund has an itneresting park/forest hybrid thing. it's more well-tended than the kind of forest I'm used to, but bigger and more closed than a park in the sense that I could easily walk for a while in the middle without seeing anything but trees.
19:22:18 <b_jonas> it's quite close to the city center too
19:22:47 <b_jonas> was nice but also a little scary in the dark
19:23:08 <b_jonas> not like one of those big castle gardens either, too irregular for that
19:35:13 <esowiki> [[User:MiroslavRD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66509&oldid=66504 * MiroslavRD * (+2)
19:36:26 <esowiki> [[User:MiroslavRD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66510&oldid=66509 * MiroslavRD * (+5)
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19:51:25 <esowiki> [[Here's to the crazy ones]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66511 * MiroslavRD * (+3428) Possibly a normal esolang
19:51:50 <esowiki> [[99 Bottles of Beer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66512 * MiroslavRD * (+32) Redirected page to [[99 bottles of beer]]
19:52:04 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66513&oldid=66359 * MiroslavRD * (+84)
19:52:19 <b_jonas> are there music players suitable for children under 3 years of age, in the sense that they're impossible even for an infant to disassemble, too large to try to swallow, and spit-proof? or is that practically impossible because you can't make the contact towards the charger infant-proof?
19:52:49 <b_jonas> presumably it would need to have built-in memory rather than a micro-SD card slot
19:53:22 <pikhq> (not an SD card, more like a PCMCIA-sized SD card :))
19:53:35 <b_jonas> pikhq: no no. an infant would bite on that and break it
19:53:54 <b_jonas> infant-proofing is harder than vandal-proofing
19:54:18 <esowiki> [[MiroslavRD]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66514 * MiroslavRD * (+29) Redirected page to [[User:MiroslavRD]]
19:54:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:MiroslavRD]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66515 * MiroslavRD * (+34) Redirected page to [[User talk:MiroslavRD]]
19:54:54 <ais523> <MiroslavRD> Here's to the crazy ones is a inspiration of Shakespeare Programming Language adjusted to reference Apple's TextEdit icon before Yosemite, saying "Dear Kate, Here's to the crazy ones." ← that sentence has got a close-to-perfectly-balanced ambiguity between Kate as a person's name and Kate as a text editor's name
19:55:08 <ais523> given that it's Apple, the former is probably more likely, but that depends on context
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19:55:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[MiroslavRD]]": links to userspace should be clearly marked (see [[Esolang:Policy]]), a redirect from mainspace goes against that
19:56:09 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Talk:MiroslavRD]]": links to userspace should be clearly marked (see [[Esolang:Policy]]), a redirect from mainspace goes against that [talkpage edition]
19:58:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66516&oldid=66498 * B jonas * (+0) Instrns at top of page clearly say you should use the same order as on Language List, so 1+ comes first.
20:05:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brachylog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66517&oldid=66482 * Ais523 * (+1348) Prolog isn't imperative; it has imperative constructs, but many of its constructs can't easily be converted to imperative equivalents
20:11:18 <b_jonas> I'm considering to change my featured language suggestion from Befunge to Nopfunge
20:11:41 <b_jonas> despite that I usually don't like counter machines
20:12:52 <ais523> Nopfunge and Tip are interesting because all the information is stored in the instruction pointer via repeating the program
20:13:16 <b_jonas> Conedy might be like that too, but we don't know if it's powerful enough
20:14:56 <zzo38> Have you seen my new and currently unnamed esolangs? I would want to know what is other people's comment of it.
20:15:20 <b_jonas> You could say that they're cheating by storing extra information that doesn't actually determine the instruction in the higher order parts for Nopfunge or the lower order parts for Conedy or Blindfolded Arithmetic
20:15:23 <ais523> actually, this reminds me of an esolang idea I was working on a while back but never made public because I couldn't get it to work
20:15:57 <b_jonas> but the language definitions are natural enough that it doesn't feel like cheating
20:15:59 <zzo38> Which one is that?
20:16:06 <ais523> it consists of a procedurally generated 3D space with lots of objects in it (like spheres, cubes, rendered 3D ASCII letters, that sort of thing)
20:16:20 <ais523> a program is simply a point and a direction
20:16:35 <ais523> interpreted as a ray that bounces off things
20:17:00 <imode> raytracing: the esolang.
20:17:10 <ais523> and all the numbers have infinite precision (somehow, not sure whether rationals or computable reals work better)
20:17:20 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm, do we in first place have a language where the contents of the instruction space is a pre-determined infinite one and the program consists of only a bignum instruction pointer for where to start?
20:17:22 <ais523> I couldn't get it to be TC in a natural way, though
20:17:33 <imode> ais523: have you seen "geometric" turing machines?
20:17:44 <ais523> b_jonas: I don't think so, I might be wrong though
20:17:59 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, why 3D rather than 2D?
20:18:02 <imode> lemme see if I can dig that up.
20:18:14 <b_jonas> can't it be turing-complete even if it's 2D?
20:18:27 <ais523> b_jonas: actually I think even 3 dimensions may be too little
20:18:38 <b_jonas> I guess to get such a language, you can just fix a nopfunge program that is a universal machine
20:18:48 <ais523> the basic problems are related to a) how you store information, b) how you store the program
20:19:39 <ais523> if you have curved surfaces to bounce off you can effectively define a program via using very minor shifts in the starting position of the ray, that get amplified when bouncing, so that you can take whatever path you like
20:19:56 <ais523> but a 3D object has a 2D surface, that means you're using up an entire dimension just to store the program
20:19:59 <b_jonas> right, so you can have a full oracle in a single finely patterned object
20:20:17 <b_jonas> that just reflect the ray to the right direction in a bounded number of steps
20:20:25 <b_jonas> possibly even in one step if it needn't be smooth
20:20:30 <ais523> and the remaining 1 dimension doesn't seem to be usable for anything more data-powerful than a single stack without some really contrived objects
20:21:18 <imode> ugh, this dude's stuff is scattered everywhere.
20:21:23 <imode> http://lara.inist.fr/bitstream/handle/2332/1001/LIP-RR2004-09.pdf?sequence=1
20:21:27 <ais523> anyway, I got stuck (primarily on this problem) and never ended up creating a usable language, but that's about as far as I've gotten
20:21:49 <imode> he demonstrates a 2 counter automaton.
20:21:53 <imode> it's a "signal machine".
20:22:04 <b_jonas> ais523: could you make something discrete, like a reversible nopfunge in ten dimensions?
20:22:24 <imode> https://arxiv.org/pdf/0906.3225.pdf
20:22:27 <ais523> it's easy enough to do it if you allow for contrived object fields
20:23:17 <ais523> like having a universal machine just lying there, or using some sort of space-filling pattern that will contain any particular finite set of objects in any possible arrangement somewhere (assuminig the number of possible object arrangements is countable)
20:23:18 <imode> dude essentially forms computations by geometric construction.
20:23:52 <b_jonas> ais523: a universal machine for something much more powerful than turing though
20:24:17 <imode> so you could absolutely make it TC, just by having different collision rules for objects.
20:25:26 <ais523> imode: right, I wanted something like that but more tarpitty
20:25:41 <imode> can't get more tarpitty than actual TMs. :P
20:25:50 <imode> well you probably could now that I think about it..
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20:26:06 <imode> keep forgetting the lengths people will go to to make their language unusable.
20:26:25 <ais523> tag machines are a good example of something generally considered to be simpler than a Turing machine
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20:27:01 <b_jonas> imode: it's not just deliberately making them unusable, it's natural constructions that happen to be hard to use, or stuff like M:tG that are designed for goals other than general programming
20:27:20 <imode> I dunno, Malbolge seems maliciously designed.
20:27:28 <imode> along with a host of other languages.
20:27:40 <b_jonas> imode: yeah, think of Nopfunge rather than Malbolge or Intercal
20:27:47 <ais523> Malbolge's kind of a special case, it was intentionally designed to be unusable
20:27:51 <b_jonas> and note that Malbolge is old, which is its excuse
20:28:15 <ais523> b_jonas: well, if you subscribe to the rottytooth school that sees esolang creation as art, the user experience is part of that
20:28:21 <imode> doesn't seem rather well thought out considering... ALGOL68. :P
20:28:26 <ais523> and the theoretical/computational experience is quite different
20:28:46 <ais523> esolangs designed as esolangs should ideally be interesting in all dimensions
20:28:59 <ais523> I put a lot of effort into Incident, for example (which is hard to use but at least has interesting reasons for that)
20:29:52 <ais523> much of my esolang research is more at the computational model end of things, though
20:30:08 <ais523> in which case the syntax doesn't even really exist, you're just coming up with something to fit it into a computer
20:31:52 <ais523> I guess my line is "if this language mostly exists to compile into something else, its syntax is not the interesting part"
20:32:11 <ais523> whereas if the language mostly exists for some other reason, things like the user interface are important
20:32:37 <ais523> there's an esolang (I've forgotten what it's called) in which there's a time limit on entering each line of the program and you can't use backspace…
20:32:58 <b_jonas> right, waterfall model and stackflow are examples where the syntax isn't important
20:33:11 <pikhq> At the very least, esolangs ought to be interesting along some dimension in ways that would otherwise be impractical for a language intended for serious use by _someone_.
20:33:12 <b_jonas> ais523: is that one flavored as a magic system in some fantasy universe, the programs being spells?
20:33:37 <ais523> b_jonas: no, it's flavoured as a terrible IDE
20:33:56 <esowiki> [[0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66518 * MiroslavRD * (+13304) Created page with "0 is a joke language created by [[User:MiroslavRD|MiroslavRD]]. It is a glitchy [[brainfuck]] derivative. It distorts your code in these ways: * Add unexpected symbols * Re..."
20:34:05 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66519&oldid=66295 * MiroslavRD * (+169)
20:34:37 <esowiki> [[Aleph 0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66520 * MiroslavRD * (+18) Redirected page to [[0]]
20:34:37 <esowiki> [[0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66521&oldid=66518 * Ais523 * (-11) unpipe link to userspace
20:36:04 <b_jonas> like the door opening keypad at my grandmother's house, which has such a short timeout that it erases my input between when I type the flat number and separator and when I figure out what the four-digit password is
20:36:40 <b_jonas> I always get it only on second try, when I have the password cached into my short term memory rather than just use the mnemonic from my long term memory
20:36:57 <b_jonas> so stupid, no need to have such a short timeout there
20:37:35 <ais523> the purpose of a timeout on those things is often to prevent issues where one person leaves information partially entered and then another person uses the keypad, causing all the inputs to be misinterpreted
20:37:51 <b_jonas> yes, I agree that there should be a timeout
20:37:57 <b_jonas> it's just too short in that case
20:38:00 <ais523> I've seen mechanical keypads of that nature which, being mechanical, have no timeout; there are often big signs put above them saying "please remember to press cancel before using this keypad"
20:38:05 <zzo38> How short is the timeout?
20:38:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't remember, probably like five seconds
20:39:33 <b_jonas> ais523: this keypad has a display though, which shows "---" while you're typing the password
20:39:56 <b_jonas> this sort of keypad is really common, we have a similar one on this house, and one on my parents' house
20:41:12 <b_jonas> the keypad reads digits by shining horizontal and vertical lights a millimeter in front of the keypad, and detecting which row and column of light is interrupted. thus it can only read one key at a time.
20:41:41 <b_jonas> it's an interesting way to make a keypad that doesn't break easily from outdoor conditions and deliberate vandalism
20:42:28 <ais523> couldn't it read two or more keys at a time if they were in the same row or column?
20:43:05 <b_jonas> but I think it's better to detect those as invalid reads
20:45:47 <ais523> you could use them as chords to expand the character set of your passwords
20:46:18 <b_jonas> ais523: the one at my parent's house already sometimes becomes unusable at winter. or it did before some of the hardware got replaced. so I say no.
20:46:43 <b_jonas> if you want to expand password space, just use passwords longer than four digits.
20:47:38 <zzo38> I think four digit passwords is too short. Even if four digit passwords are allowed, the maximum should be more than that, perhaps eight or ten digits.
20:47:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: for a house gate, it doesn't really matter
20:48:08 <b_jonas> but sure, allowing a longer password is fine
20:48:23 <b_jonas> and the hardware these days can allow it easily
20:48:45 <b_jonas> for electronic house door openers I mean, not for eg. combination locks
21:01:49 <HackEso> electronic monk? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:06:16 <pikhq> Electrocuted monk?
21:06:31 <b_jonas> pikhq: no. electronic monk, from Douglas Adams.
21:07:06 <pikhq> Go stick your head in a pig.
21:17:57 <arseniiv> do someone knows what’s that CRT mania about?
21:19:23 <arseniiv> versus modern LCD technologies which there too many are now that I don’t know their betterness relations anymore
21:22:51 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I know one electronic monk, it’s called Delay Lama and is very old by now
21:25:56 <b_jonas> does he use mercury delay lines?
21:26:43 <imode> it's funny you mention that, I had an idea for a language that functioned similarly to delay lines.
21:28:45 <imode> instructions are laid out linearly. data is fed through them, one at a time. the instructions essentially define a pipeline. every element of memory is fed through the pipeline and then sent back through the loop until you hit a stopping point.
21:29:28 <imode> with structured data items and stateful pipeline stages, could prove a concise dataflow language if you figure out how to "flatten" dataflow networks into a pipeline.
21:43:58 <ais523> hmm, could you combine the two phrases into "as if only" to make a simultaneous expression of disbelief and encouragement?
21:46:31 <b_jonas> fungot probably could, he combines expressions from a too narrow window all the time
21:46:31 <fungot> b_jonas: your patience is commendable. let me check whether it is
21:48:55 <b_jonas> fungot: it's time for the new o strip. please post it.
21:48:55 <fungot> b_jonas: then i think you have a third-world browser? or disabling it voluntarly? sure
21:49:24 <b_jonas> I did do a shift-refresh. I'm not going to disable the browser cache for you.
21:55:02 <pikhq> arseniiv: There's a few different claims for why they're "better", but the Big Ones are: CRTs have less intrinsic delay, CRTs are better at handling interlaced signals, and CRTs tend to be more accepting of odd display timings than modern LCDs are.
21:55:36 <b_jonas> pikhq: also their colors look the same from a wider viewing angle
21:55:53 <pikhq> For example, some games switch between 240p and 480i display modes with slightly different timing, and modern displays basically stop drawing anything during the switch.
21:55:59 <arseniiv> b_jonas: is that still an issue with modern types of LCDs?
21:55:59 <pikhq> (old CRTs just don't care)
21:56:27 <b_jonas> arseniiv: what did improve in LCDs is that their colors look nicer, and the contrast stronger
21:57:00 <arseniiv> hmm I guess first of all I just don’t game too much, moreso in fullscreen
21:57:47 <arseniiv> I even watched films in a window usually :D
21:57:56 <pikhq> Ultimately all of those add up to "old game consoles were built for old displays, and modern displays aren't 100% compatible with them -- especially without a lot of hacks"
21:58:24 <b_jonas> pikhq: the viewing angle thing isn't about that
21:58:38 <pikhq> Yeah, that's more a fundamental limitation in the display tech.
21:58:41 <arseniiv> pikhq: wait, I thought they talked about modern gaming? oh
21:59:00 <pikhq> Though modern LCDs have _much_ better viewing angles than old ones did.
21:59:09 <b_jonas> the larger part is that the old games were designed for crts
21:59:26 <pikhq> Yeah, CRTs having better latency still holds for modern gaming.
21:59:52 <pikhq> Though -- if you purchase the right displays, you can get LCD displays with low enough latency it's not a problem.
21:59:55 <b_jonas> but it's also that crts can do 200 hertz refresh and the visible output can change quickly compared to similarly priced lcds
22:00:06 <b_jonas> but I think that's getting somewhat solved by more expensive lcds
22:00:15 <pikhq> (buuut it's a lot easier to find suitable CRTs)
22:00:40 <b_jonas> I prefer lcds though, they have a lot of advantages
22:19:38 <b_jonas> not the cheap ones that come with broken pixels
22:20:46 <b_jonas> I had the misfortune of meeting the latter kind at work
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23:01:36 <esowiki> [[0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66522&oldid=66521 * MiroslavRD * (+548) Fixed Brainfuck code to Aleph 0 code
23:05:16 <esowiki> [[And then]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66523&oldid=46426 * MiroslavRD * (+19)
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23:12:01 <esowiki> [[Template:CodeBox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66525 * Moon * (+771) Migrate from Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:CodeBox I think it'd be more fitting here.
23:13:12 <esowiki> [[Template:CodeBox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66526&oldid=66525 * Moon * (-29) Remove <source> tag, as the SyntaxHighlight extension is not installed on esolangs.
23:16:40 <esowiki> [[Template:CodeBox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66527&oldid=66526 * Moon * (+8)
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23:56:47 <zzo38> Does some mailing list software include support for NNTP?
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00:17:12 <esowiki> [[User:AnimaLibera]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66534&oldid=66533 * AnimaLibera * (+117)
00:18:00 <esowiki> [[User:AnimaLibera]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66535&oldid=66534 * AnimaLibera * (+9)
00:23:52 <esowiki> [[User:AnimaLibera]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66536&oldid=66535 * AnimaLibera * (+4)
00:24:22 <esowiki> [[User:AnimaLibera]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66537&oldid=66536 * AnimaLibera * (+4)
00:24:34 <esowiki> [[User:AnimaLibera]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66538&oldid=66537 * AnimaLibera * (+4)
00:26:09 <esowiki> [[User:AnimaLibera]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66539&oldid=66538 * AnimaLibera * (-6)
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00:47:36 <zzo38> Now I added a export command into bystand, to export articles to mbox format. (Currently, there is no import, though.)
01:07:36 <oerjan> <b_jonas> what makes it strange is how new contributors test the code in all those weird languages <-- i think at this point only stasoid knows how to do it :P
01:07:53 <oerjan> and presumably has a fully scripted setup for it
01:15:25 <zzo38> pikhq: I think computer monitors have lower delay than LCD TV sets. So, if you have a game console system, connect it to a computer monitor rather than using the TV set.
01:15:44 <zzo38> (If they have a compatible connection)
01:15:47 <pikhq> It actually depends on both the TV and the monitor.
01:16:10 <pikhq> Some TVs are quite low-delay, some monitors are quite high.
01:16:31 <pikhq> Though for older consoles the worst case is when you're feeding an interlaced signal in.
01:16:44 <pikhq> Then, a TV will usually try to do a smart deinterlacing algorithm.
01:16:55 <pikhq> Which is reasonable for generic video content, as that'll look better.
01:17:17 <pikhq> But for games, latency is generally so important you'd rather deal with a bad deinterlace, like bob deinterlacing, just to not have the extra delay.
01:18:25 <zzo38> Do some TV sets have a option to change the deinterlacing algorithm?
01:20:58 <zzo38> Some old systems such as Famicom will output 240p, but apparently some newer TV sets won't understand a 240p signal
01:23:35 <esowiki> [[User talk:Moon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66540&oldid=53830 * Ais523 * (+345) /* Template:Codebox */ new section
01:23:53 <pikhq> Some TVs do. There are also third-party devices, like the Retrotink 2x, that will do the ADC and deinterlacing themselves, and send a digital signal over HDMI.
01:23:55 <esowiki> [[User talk:Moon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66541&oldid=66540 * Ais523 * (+0) unbreak link
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01:28:10 <zzo38> I think that HDMI isn't very good and has a lot of problems with the design. (I think Digi-RGB is better.)
01:29:13 <pikhq> HDMI is _good enough_ for most purposes, but it's got significant problems in its design.
01:37:22 <zzo38> Yes, that is why I make the better one. I think everything with one cable is more disadvantage than an advantage, however, I also think that it is possible to make the advantages of both ways, by defining the standard arrangement and you can use cables which can be clipped together if wanted to do.
01:38:07 <zzo38> You can have one cable for video, one for each channel of audio, and one for commands, and you can connect only some in case you do not need all of them, or to connect them differently such as if the audio is connected to a separate audio system than the TV screen.
01:39:47 <pikhq> While that would get you a lot of flexibility, it does have the downside that most consumers want their video cabling to be simple.
01:40:01 <zzo38> One problem of HDMI is that HDMI does not have captions.
01:40:26 <pikhq> That's just weird, too.
01:41:01 <pikhq> I forget, do Blurays have captions?
01:41:04 <zzo38> Yes, I know you might want the video cabling to be simple, which is why they are all clipped together, so that you do not have to deal with them individually unless you want to do so.
01:41:17 <pikhq> I know they have subtitles, but I don't remember if they have embedded captions like DVD does.
01:41:28 <zzo38> I don't know much about Blu-ray. DVD video has both captions and subtitles.
01:42:07 <zzo38> (I have a VHS/DVD combo which has the ability to render captions itself, whether from VHS, DVD, or external inputs.)
01:43:14 <zzo38> Even though DVD subtitles use indexed colours, I have not seen any option in DVD players and DVD software to specify your own colours and opacity for subtitles.
01:44:32 <pikhq> Which would be nice, cause some discs specify really bad colors too.
01:44:34 <zzo38> With Digi-RGB, the captions are transmitted using the IMIDI cable (which is the only one with bidirectional data, and it is optional to use that cable); the Digi-RGB video cable is only the picture and nothing else.
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04:05:08 <kmc> good evening
04:27:59 <kmc> fungot: what time is it anyway?
04:27:59 <fungot> kmc: i'm the author of the fnord
05:03:03 <oerjan> pikhq: sorry for the bad qwwem joke yesterday
05:20:22 <zzo38> Do you like IMIDI and Digi-RGB?
05:24:35 <pikhq> I feel I don't know enough to be certain how I feel about them.
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07:29:24 <b_jonas> ``` datei # what time is it anyway
07:29:24 <HackEso> 2019-10-07 07:29:24.622 +0000 UTC October 7 Monday 2019-W41-1
07:31:48 <HackEso> Today is Setting Orange, the 61st day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3185
07:32:28 <b_jonas> `` TZ=Pacific/Auckland datei
07:32:29 <HackEso> 2019-10-07 20:32:28.859 +1300 NZDT October 7 Monday 2019-W41-1
07:33:05 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: where: not found
07:33:17 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: where: command not found
07:33:44 <HackEso> #!/usr/bin/python3 \ # beat - print current time in Swatch Internet Time format. \ # blame fizzie \ import math,sys,getopt,time \ prec = 0 \ atime = None \ opts,args = getopt.getopt(sys.argv[1:], "d:hpP:") \ for opt,oarg in opts: \ if "-d" == opt: \ if "@" == oarg[0]: \ atime = float(oarg[1:]) \ else: \ raise RuntimeError("unknown date format") \ elif "-p" == opt: prec = 2 \ elif "-P" == opt: prec = int(oarg) \ elif "-h" == opt: \ print
07:33:52 <HackEso> beat(1hackeso) - print current time in Swatch Internet Time format
07:33:59 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: what: not found
07:34:08 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: when: not found
07:34:14 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: why: not found
07:34:23 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: whois: not found
07:34:48 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: whence: not found
07:35:29 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: whomsoever: not found
07:37:24 <b_jonas> ``` for x in type what who which how why when whence where whither; do "$x" beat 2>/dev/null && echo "+$x"; "${x}is" beat 2>/dev/null && echo "+${x}is"; done
07:37:25 <HackEso> beat is /hackenv/bin/beat \ +type \ beat(1hackeso) - print current time in Swatch Internet Time format \ +whatis \ +who \ /hackenv/bin/beat \ +which \ beat: /hackenv/bin/beat \ +whereis
07:38:00 <HackEso> whereis is /usr/bin/whereis
07:38:08 <HackEso> whereis(1) - locate the binary, source, and manual page files for a command
07:38:48 <b_jonas> ``` dpkg-query -S /usr/bin/whereis
07:38:49 <HackEso> dpkg-query: error: failed to open package info file '/var/lib/dpkg/status' for reading: No such file or directory
07:39:53 <b_jonas> if we had the package database, then we could add a "whence" script that does dpkg-query -S
07:41:42 <b_jonas> and a when script that queries both the hg repository and the package history for when the file was installed and modified
07:42:04 <b_jonas> a who script to tell who modified it...
07:42:24 <b_jonas> and a why script that links to channel logs for context
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08:50:24 <esowiki> [[Aleph]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66542 * MiroslavRD * (+18) Redirected page to [[0]]
08:50:39 <esowiki> [[Aleph Naught]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66543 * MiroslavRD * (+18) Redirected page to [[0]]
08:51:07 <esowiki> [[Aleph Null]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66544 * MiroslavRD * (+18) Redirected page to [[0]]
08:51:16 <esowiki> [[NO]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66545 * MiroslavRD * (+18) Redirected page to [[0]]
08:51:31 <esowiki> [[N0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66546 * MiroslavRD * (+18) Redirected page to [[0]]
08:52:12 <esowiki> [[O]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66547 * MiroslavRD * (+18) Redirected page to [[0]]
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09:49:09 <wib_jonas> ``` for x in type what who which how why when whence where whither; do type -a "$x" 2>/dev/null; type -a "${x}is" 2>/dev/null; done
09:49:10 <HackEso> type is a shell builtin \ whatis is /hackenv/bin/whatis \ whatis is /usr/bin/whatis \ who is /usr/bin/who \ which is /usr/bin/which \ which is /bin/which \ whereis is /usr/bin/whereis
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13:12:06 <esowiki> [[Template:CodeBox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66548&oldid=66527 * Moon * (+3) try this?
13:12:23 <esowiki> [[User talk:Moon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66549&oldid=66541 * Moon * (+99) /* Template:CodeBox */
13:14:06 <esowiki> [[Template:CodeBox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66550&oldid=66548 * Moon * (+13)
13:14:32 <esowiki> [[Template:CodeBox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66551&oldid=66550 * Moon * (+17)
13:14:39 <shig> So I found this place from the bfjoust site. Anywhre with IOCCC winners announced in the topic can't be that bad
13:16:14 <HackEso> shig: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
13:16:21 <esowiki> [[Template:CodeBox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66552&oldid=66551 * Moon * (+0) Something something porting pains
13:18:08 <esowiki> [[Template:CodeBox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66553&oldid=66552 * Moon * (-17) ''sigh''
13:19:35 <esowiki> [[Template:CodeBox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66554&oldid=66553 * Moon * (-13) Ok, maybe this *won't* work.
13:36:45 <zemhill_________> web.shig_eyeless_joustee: points -5.50, score 13.46, rank 42/47
13:47:45 <fizzie> The underscore situation is getting ridiculous.
13:48:02 <fizzie> But I'm pretty afraid that the thing wouldn't actually start up properly if I kill it.
13:52:09 <wib_jonas> fizzie: its nick is 16 chars long, which is the maximum on freenode
13:52:19 <wib_jonas> do you think it will crash when it tries to add another underscore?
13:52:42 <wib_jonas> or will it get more ridiculous by modifying its nick in different ways?\
13:55:25 <fizzie> I'm not sure. It may just keep the current amount of underscores.
13:56:58 <fizzie> I think it's left and come back a few times with the current name, though from my client's perspective those were all netsplits, so maybe it didn't actually reconnect those times.
14:02:54 <int-e> it has also reached the maximum nickname length on Freenode, I think.
14:03:30 <int-e> as wib_jonas already pointed out
14:06:58 <wib_jonas> well, if you can't fix the code, you just have to take it to a different network. there exist some with longer nick max lengths and longer channel max lengths. I think the maximum isn't even attained on the same network.
14:10:24 <fizzie> The plan was (I guess technically still is) to migrate it under the esolangs.org domain and at the same time switch to a rewrite that I think I left about half finished. Just never remember to pick that up.
14:15:29 <esowiki> [[User talk:Moon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66555&oldid=66549 * Moon * (-91) Section 'bug reporting' obsolete, It is not 2016 anymore, I know what a 'github' is. All of my old languages should be considered unsupported, considering putting them up for deletion.
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14:30:48 <esowiki> [[Hellborne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66556&oldid=60337 * Moon * (-526) Blank. This is a language of my creation. [[User:ais523]], you mind deleting it? There was effectively no progress on this language.
14:54:14 <esowiki> [[Template:CodeBox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66557&oldid=66554 * Moon * (+51) try <syntaxhighlight>
14:58:15 <esowiki> [[Template:CodeBox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66558&oldid=66557 * Moon * (-51) My disappointment is immeasurable. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SyntaxHighlight isn't installed ):
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19:14:22 <Hooloovo0> got this working today: https://cemetech.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=282466#282466
19:15:57 <b_jonas> Hooloovo0: uh, that's a weird goal
19:16:50 <b_jonas> does the z80 need a lot of extra chips to make sense?
19:16:53 <Hooloovo0> nothing yet, since I just got done with the hardware
19:17:11 <Hooloovo0> in the 83+ there's an ASIC that does all the glue logic
19:17:49 <b_jonas> or doesn't the z80 need one?
19:17:56 <Hooloovo0> there's ram and flash on the TI board
19:18:07 <Hooloovo0> http://hooloovoo.blue/files/noz80.png
19:18:23 <Hooloovo0> that's the board with the z80 removed
19:18:29 <b_jonas> sure there's some RAM, but I thought that was RAM that is hardware incompatible, plus the TI is already using it
19:19:48 <Hooloovo0> wait, the extra chip piggybacked on the back is the CPU, replacing the surface-mount one that would normally be on the board
19:20:14 <Hooloovo0> I'm confused what ram you think is incompatible?
19:20:15 <b_jonas> so the normal cpu isn't there?
19:20:59 <kmc> I got a TI-92 at the flea market
19:21:02 <kmc> what should i do with it
19:21:06 <kmc> i was thinking something ham radio related
19:21:18 <kmc> i wonder if there are any morse encoder/decoder for it
19:21:28 <kmc> it would be easy to hook up the link port to a cw keyer jack
19:21:34 <b_jonas> ah, so this TI model already uses a z80 cpu?
19:21:57 <Hooloovo0> yes, sorry, I guess that's not clear if you don't know anything about the calc
19:22:00 <b_jonas> I'm confused by calculator models, I assumed this was a calculator from 2000 or something
19:22:53 <Hooloovo0> it actually is, the date code is 0800
19:23:47 <b_jonas> anyway, ok, so it uses a z80 cpu
19:23:54 <b_jonas> and you replaced that with another z80 cpu
19:23:57 <b_jonas> that makes a lot more sense
19:24:49 <b_jonas> how long are those ribbon cables from the board to the cpu? the photos don't show the end
19:25:00 <Hooloovo0> right, so eventually I can do something like http://www.cosam.org/projects/z80/panel.html which would be basically impossible with the original, surface-mount CPU
19:25:05 <b_jonas> and at what frequency does the RAM run?
19:25:28 <Hooloovo0> the system clock is by default 6Mhz
19:25:48 <Hooloovo0> I don't have my frequency counter with me right now, but I have added in a variable resistor so I can overclock it
19:26:15 <Hooloovo0> you can see the ribbon cables between the two halves in the first picture
19:26:55 <kmc> what's the purpose of replacing the CPU?
19:27:13 <b_jonas> ok, that sounds not impossible
19:27:26 <Hooloovo0> top of the post lists some reasons :)
19:27:56 <Hooloovo0> also I'm not aware of a morse encoder, but that shouldn't be too hard to do in C I think
19:28:13 <kmc> encoder would be almost trivial
19:28:16 <kmc> decoding is much harder
19:28:41 <Hooloovo0> yeah, especially since it's not an analog port
19:28:59 <kmc> you would want some kind of tone detector circuit
19:29:14 <kmc> it could be level based, or frequency based
19:29:19 <kmc> not necessarily that complicated
19:29:28 <kmc> there are also ICs for that
19:29:44 <Hooloovo0> I bet you could do it with a 555 and maybe an op-amp
19:30:19 <b_jonas> ok, so this channel is about esoteric hardware too now
19:30:22 <kmc> you could maybe do it with a resonant LRC circuit that has an appropriate decay constant
19:30:32 <kmc> not sure if it's feasible to get high enough Q on that
19:30:35 <Hooloovo0> do you have a link cable? I've got more than I need
19:30:37 <kmc> but you also need to do stats to work out the pulse lengths
19:30:52 <Hooloovo0> but you can probably just get away with any old 2.5mm TRS
19:31:11 <kmc> and well, humans are not always super consistent with morse timing
19:31:18 <kmc> so it can be tricky
19:31:25 <kmc> Hooloovo0: I would love a link cable?
19:31:28 <kmc> Hooloovo0: I would love a link cable*
19:31:39 <kmc> and, do you mean I could make one with a TRS plug and a USB-TTL adapter or something?
19:31:48 <kmc> that sounds like something I could do with parts on hand, which is cool
19:31:51 <kmc> so many projects
19:31:58 <kmc> I wonder if my Mouser order's here yet
19:32:06 <kmc> for some sex toy hacking
19:32:12 <kmc> (is that also esoteric)
19:32:20 <Hooloovo0> actually, I actually do have a spare RS232 link cable
19:32:40 <kmc> I don't want to use an actual RS232 port
19:32:43 <kmc> USB would be good
19:33:10 <Hooloovo0> if you have a usb-rs232 that'll work with the graylink
19:33:15 <b_jonas> Hooloovo0: with male or female and the wide or narrow ends?
19:33:18 <Hooloovo0> and I picked one up from the dump last week
19:33:46 <Hooloovo0> also I have spare calc-calc cables, more than I can use
19:33:59 <kmc> that one is just a traight thru TRS right
19:34:04 <kmc> oh but it's 2.5mm not 3.5mm
19:34:10 <kmc> or is it a crossover
19:34:44 <kmc> I could also most likely program one of my microcontrollers to be a link cable
19:34:47 <kmc> which would be a little silly
19:35:00 <kmc> but the same hardware could act as an IO expander, ADC, etc
19:35:02 <Hooloovo0> TI has weird-length t and s connectors but in my experience it works with just a standard one
19:35:16 <kmc> anyway do you have a premade working USB link cable for me?
19:36:47 <kmc> you know maybe I think life is good and fine
19:39:24 <Hooloovo0> wait I might actually have one, but if I do, it's in my storage unit
19:39:34 <kmc> i bet it wouldn't cost much to buy one
19:39:53 <Hooloovo0> I think they got significantly cheaper since TI did away with the link port on the CE
19:40:39 <kmc> I had a grey cable back in the day because it meant I could plug a modem into my 83+
19:40:43 <kmc> including the wireless ricochet modem
19:40:45 <kmc> that was really fun
19:40:54 <kmc> i did IRC from it a little
19:42:22 <Hooloovo0> wait, how? I'm not aware of any tcp clients for z80 at all
19:42:56 <Hooloovo0> I guess if you could dial into some computer that can do IRC then that would work
19:44:19 <Hooloovo0> but yeah, the graylink is a lot of fun
19:44:20 <kmc> just a serial console
19:44:56 <kmc> Ricochet was a pre-wifi, pre-affordable-cell-data metro area networking service
19:45:16 <kmc> on 900 MHz
19:45:25 <kmc> they had their own 'fast' protocol with the host but you could also put it into a Hayes AT compatible mode and dial direct between modems, which was good because the service went out of business and you could buy them for cheap
19:45:43 <kmc> so I had one in the basement connected to my OpenBSD server and I could 'dial' it from my bedroom using the 83+ and a big pile of cable adapters
19:46:09 <kmc> one fun-evil thing would be to put a little wireles module (maybe one of the nRF serial ones) in a TI-* case
19:46:14 <kmc> so you could message people while taking an exam
19:46:30 <kmc> I thought about this kind of stuff for fun but of course I didn't need to cheat to get a great SAT score :P
19:46:52 <kmc> i'm not sure but I bet I also had the 83+ hooked up to an actual phone line modem at some point
19:47:05 <b_jonas> so? there are still others who need to cheat to get a great SAT score and who may have bought your service
19:47:32 <kmc> i was lawful good back then
19:47:35 <kmc> now i'm chaotic good
19:47:37 <Hooloovo0> I wrote a shitty IRC client for the 92+ based on https://www.ticalc.org/archives/files/fileinfo/160/16061.html
19:47:52 <kmc> what hardware did you use for that
19:48:10 <Hooloovo0> just a graylink, and a laptop acting as a slip gateway
19:48:52 <Hooloovo0> I think during the con I had a laptop without real serial ports so there was a usb adapter in there
19:49:23 <Hooloovo0> I could actually set it up with a modem, now that I have a phone line set up
19:50:44 <Hooloovo0> the graylink is only half duplex, though.... so collisions have to be dealt with in software... and that's problematic
19:51:22 <b_jonas> Hooloovo0: collisions? not a protocol for switching direction?
19:54:14 <Hooloovo0> no, TI's link protocol just... doesn't really handle that
19:56:27 <Hooloovo0> and the ip-over-serial protocol assumes that collisions can't happen
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22:03:18 <kmc> Hooloovo0: your calculator brain surgery is impressive
22:03:24 <kmc> that's a lot of soldering
22:04:23 <fizzie> We used a TI-86 as the controller of an echo effect for a DSP programming course at the university.
22:04:51 <fizzie> Didn't involve any soldering, but involved like two evenings of debugging with an oscilloscope before someone thought to check the speaker cable scavenged from somewhere.
22:07:00 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/spank.jpg
22:07:58 <fizzie> (The code was nothing to write home about, so we had to embellish it *somehow* for the flair.)
22:14:31 <kmc> frustrated because my home internet keeps going down and i don't know why
22:17:47 <kmc> what's SPEKE
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22:21:07 <kmc> spotify still thinks it's offline even though the machine is online thru my phone
22:21:10 <kmc> spotify is buggy
22:21:15 <kmc> fortunately i still have some music stored locally
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22:48:42 <imode> so we have the structured program theorem for control flow. what about data flow?
22:49:19 <shachaf> kmc: password authentication protocol
22:49:37 <shachaf> where two people can confirm that they're thinking of the same thing without revealing it to each other
22:50:14 <kmc> well that's cool
22:50:38 <kmc> that's kind of like the question I asked in ##crypto re cryptographically secure dating services
22:51:06 <kmc> you have a set of people, everyone selects the ones they have a crush on, and you find out if anyone you picked also picked you
22:51:26 <kmc> but you can't find out if they picked you without picking them, and you can't find out anything about other pairs
22:51:53 <kmc> and then someone linked me to https://github.com/teledildonics/private_kink_intersection
22:51:59 <kmc> which is.. a great URL
22:52:09 <kmc> and solves basically the same problem in a slightly different context
22:52:27 <kmc> so there are some papers on this private set intersection problem
23:05:25 <kmc> Hooloovo0: would a serial link cable work with this usb adapter? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007T27H8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
23:05:33 <kmc> black graphlink, or grey only?
23:05:41 <kmc> iirc the black one uses CTS/RTS
23:05:47 <kmc> it /should/ work but I don't know if it's picky about timing
23:06:04 <kmc> (many hams keep an old DOS laptop around for programming radios from the 90s that use timing-exact serial interfaces)
23:08:30 <kmc> Hooloovo0: I found a 2.5mm TRS plug by chance today
23:08:35 <kmc> so I might try to build https://www.ticalc.org/hardware/cables/serial.html
23:08:44 <kmc> if I can't get a silver link cable from one of the local free-shit groups
23:08:55 <kmc> that one is supposedly black link compatible and i have all the parts most likely
23:09:21 <kmc> it doesn't say what volage of zener diode to use :P
23:09:57 <kmc> should I assume 5.6V?
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23:27:18 <kmc> so in that case the homemade cable also won't work w/ my serial adapter
23:27:30 <Hooloovo0> I'm not sure that one will work with a usb/serial adapter
23:27:53 <Hooloovo0> the problem is that it used flow control pins as data pins... which if you have a real serial port, that's fine
23:28:09 <Hooloovo0> but usb serial ports handle it poorly
23:28:14 <kmc> it should be possible to program a micro as a normal-serial-over-USB to TI-wacky-protocol converter
23:28:19 <kmc> but that also sounds like effort
23:28:28 <Hooloovo0> it might work, but it probably won't
23:28:41 <kmc> when I can get a graphlink usb for <$20
23:28:48 <kmc> I did confirm that the TI-92 turns on
23:28:56 <Hooloovo0> yeah, that probably could be made to work, someone might have even done it
23:29:15 <kmc> I could also get a grey link for $16 which would be more versatile in some ways but a lot more bulk
23:29:28 <Hooloovo0> it's just a 92? I think you have to do hacks to get assembly working on plain 92
23:30:04 <kmc> it's not a 92+
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23:30:26 <Hooloovo0> https://www.ticalc.org/basics/calculators/ti-92.html looks like it's doable though
23:30:37 <kmc> i could still have fun with basic too
23:30:44 <kmc> TI-89/92 BASIC is pretty powerful
23:31:00 <kmc> and pretty fast if you take good advantage of the built-in capabilities
23:31:36 <Hooloovo0> I'm a lot less familiar with 68k basic than z80 basic
23:31:53 <Hooloovo0> oh, apparently there's a better way, but that page can't be fucked to describe what it is
23:33:37 <Hooloovo0> https://www.ticalc.org/pub/92/asm/shells/ that's right, fargo
23:34:11 <Hooloovo0> been a while since I've played with the plain 92
23:35:11 <kmc> does it work with tigcc?
23:35:23 <kmc> I've never actually done m68k assembly, it could be fun
23:35:37 <kmc> maybe this will get me excited about coding again
23:35:40 <kmc> could happen
23:40:35 <fizzie> Our (high) school was all TI-85/86 when I went through it. I think the 85 you had to trick to write assembly, but the 86 did it natively.
23:41:17 <kmc> we had mostly 83+ and 89
23:41:24 <kmc> the 89 was a lifesaver for calc and physics
23:41:47 <kmc> it has a decent CAS along with unit analysis
23:42:26 <fizzie> 86 didn't do algebra, but I think that was an advantage, you were allowed to use it in the exams.
23:42:37 <Hooloovo0> we were starting to get nspires when I was in HS
23:43:06 * Hooloovo0 took his TI-XXXXXXXXXXX to many an exam
23:43:15 <fizzie> I'm thinking TI-86 was about the most advanced thing you could possibly take with you in an exam. And you had to reset it.
23:43:37 <kmc> iirc the 89 was allowed on all AP math/science exams
23:43:59 <Hooloovo0> I don't recall it being super useful though
23:44:04 <kmc> I had a fake reset screen app
23:44:16 <kmc> not for cheating... but because I didn't want to lose the games and stuff
23:44:25 <fizzie> I think that existed for the 86 as well.
23:44:33 <kmc> you can do it easily enough if you can run asm
23:44:39 <kmc> it's not like there's any OS that's going to stop you
23:44:50 <fizzie> Well, it could have a hardware reset switch.
23:45:18 <Hooloovo0> they do :P take out all batteries, then on+clear
23:45:51 <fizzie> Right. I don't think anyone insisted on resetting it that thoroughly though.
23:46:17 <fizzie> I wrote a robotfindskitten port for the 86, https://zem.fi/rfk86/
23:46:36 <Hooloovo0> iirc also there's hold left and right arrows on later 84+OSs had 'hold left and right with battery insert' as 'reset for signapore'
23:47:56 <Hooloovo0> http://wikiti.brandonw.net/index.php?title=83Plus:OS:Secret_Key_Combinations
23:48:52 <Hooloovo0> hmm, that's not quite what it does, but yeah, there's all those
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00:38:02 <ais523_> <Hooloovo0> the problem is that it used flow control pins as data pins... which if you have a real serial port, that's fine ← if you're doing that, it isn't a serial port, it's a parallel port
00:40:32 <kmc> ais523_: well, except that the actual TI protocol is serial, isn't it
00:40:34 <kmc> clock + data?
00:41:04 <ais523_> I guess you could use the flow control pins as data pins, but not the actual data pins, but that seems perverse
00:41:22 <ais523_> if you're using two different pins to send data simultaneously, though, it isn't a serial connection by definition :-)
00:41:38 <imode> bits go one at a time down a single wire.
00:41:46 <kmc> so it's using a "serial port" (as in 8250 compatible UART on a PC) in the common manner of a parallel port (GPIO bitbang) to implement a serial protocol :P
00:42:09 <kmc> ais523_: SPI is clock + bidirectional data, 3 pins (4 including a chip select) and that's universally considered serial
00:42:39 <kmc> Hooloovo0: btw the PIClink here seems to be an example of what I was saying re: programming a micro to act like a grey link http://merthsoft.com/linkguide/cable.html
00:44:29 <kmc> anyway i'm not clear on what the hardware level link protocol is
00:44:44 <fizzie> The TI link protocol is pretty special.
00:46:24 <fizzie> When you want to send a bit, you pull one wire to zero, and the receiving end acknowledges by pulling the other wire to zero.
00:46:36 <fizzie> Which wire you pull determines if it was a 0 or a 1 bit.
00:46:51 <fizzie> So there's no clock involved, it runs at whatever speed it runs.
00:47:11 <fizzie> Disclaimer: all I know about this probably came from http://paperlined.org/EE/microcontrollers/pic/projects/portable_VT_terminal/ti_86_link_port/link86all.htm -- at least that page looks familiar.
00:47:35 <ais523_> <kmc> ais523_: SPI is clock + bidirectional data, 3 pins (4 including a chip select) and that's universally considered serial ← sorry, should have added "in the same direction" to that
00:47:55 <kmc> fizzie: huh, weird.
00:48:09 <kmc> cool, this has the info I was looking for
00:48:36 <fizzie> kmc: Well, it does let you do it all in software on CPUs that might run at rather uncontrolled speeds, without having to have an UART or whatnot.
00:51:07 <ais523_> hmm, that's an interesting way to fit the normal three wires that an async connection uses (data + strobe + ack) into two, although they both have to be drivable from both ends
00:51:07 <kmc> it seems pretty clever
00:51:18 <kmc> it also allows you to immediately tell if the other side is present
00:51:51 <ais523_> I assume that after sending a bit, then the sender undoes their pull, then the recipient undoes their pull, to keep the connection as delay-insensitive
00:52:12 <kmc> so i would say this is still serial because it transfers one bit of information at a time, even though it uses two wires to do it
00:52:35 <kmc> and yeah, it seems this allows the receiving end to slow down the sender when necessary
00:52:55 <kmc> effectively negotiating a baud rate which is the slower of what the two sides want
00:52:59 <kmc> it's actually very clever
00:53:07 <kmc> I might even use this sometime in one of my own projects
00:53:25 <kmc> I have used Manchester code for something
00:53:54 <ais523_> throughout my PhD I was working on a compiler to hardware which uses a delay-insensitive representation internally for most of the compilation process
00:54:05 <kmc> which is synchronous, so the bit times have to be roughly the same, but it has clock recovery so no precise absolute frequency reference is required
00:54:12 <ais523_> (for much the same reason that compilers to software use SSA or similar normal forms; you don't want to care about timing details until the compilation is finished)
00:54:17 <kmc> makes sense
00:54:32 <ais523_> so I ended up doing a lot of background reading on asynchronous circuitry
00:55:08 <imode> there's a "bible" for asynchronous circuit design.
00:55:09 <ais523_> you nearly always need a separate wire for 0 bits and for 1 bits because you assume that the recipient can't tell which of two wires changed first
00:55:26 <ais523_> but normally, the acknowledgement would be on a third wire
00:55:27 <imode> asynchronous pipelines are neat. I built one.
00:55:54 <ais523_> a big advantage of doing things that way is that you don't need to reset the logic levels after sending a bit, you just toggle the 0 wire or the 1 wire to send the bit
00:56:01 <ais523_> and the recipient toggles the ack wire to acknowledge
00:56:23 <kmc> this also reminds me of CAN a bit
00:56:25 <imode> https://hatebin.com/huuywfgrqq save this as "pipeline.circ" and open it in http://www.cburch.com/logisim/
00:56:25 <ais523_> imode: is this the famous "micropipelines" paper?
00:56:32 <kmc> it's open-collector and it has clock stretching sort of
00:56:40 <imode> ais523_: sutherland? partially. there was a larger book.
00:56:48 <ais523_> the funny thing is, one of the references in that paper is dubious, and people keep copying it into their own reference lists without actually chasing the reference
00:57:01 <imode> http://www2.imm.dtu.dk/pubdb/views/edoc_download.php/855/pdf/imm855.pdf this thing.
00:57:04 <ais523_> meaning that you have this book that's highly cited but almost nobody has actually read
00:57:51 <ais523_> (the book was basically just being used as a surrogate source for a particular statement because the original source would have been very hard to get hold of at the time; however, the original source for the statement has since been digitised so it's much easier to find)
00:58:35 <ais523_> (and it's basically just a throwaway line in the book, rather than giving any additional context)
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01:18:03 <oerjan> <b_jonas> ok, so this channel is about esoteric hardware too now <-- pretty sure it's been that for a long time
01:25:35 <ais523_> programming isn't limited to software
01:26:12 <ais523_> although, the hardware meaning of "programming" normally means "to copy a program to" (where the program is usually software, but could be firmware or even a blueprint for making hardware)
02:02:40 <kmc> Hooloovo0: I'm signed up for the float tank at 11am tomorrow :)
02:06:24 <ais523_> hmm, so I guess "esoteric programming" in hardware would be updating the state of reconfigurable hardware via some ridiculous mechanism
02:06:31 <ais523_> such as waving magnets at it
02:06:41 <imode> magnetized needle and a steady hand.
02:08:29 <kmc> hit it with a hammer
02:40:16 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure there's an old "real programmer" joke about that
02:40:56 <ais523_> there's an xkcd which may be either a) the joke you're thinking of or b) a parody of the joke you're thinking of
02:41:08 <ais523_> but I don't have xkcd numbers memorized
02:43:34 <imode> https://www.xkcd.com/378/
02:43:35 <b_jonas> and I think you mean https://www.xkcd.com/378/
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03:50:37 <Hooloovo0> kmc, merth's link guide should have the best info on that
03:50:54 <Hooloovo0> http://merthsoft.com/linkguide/hardware.html
03:52:09 <Hooloovo0> it's not really clock+data serial - it's more of a a send/ack serial
03:54:13 <imode> it's okay. this channel is logged.
03:54:36 <imode> you can use lambdabot's @message feature to send a message to him as well.
04:00:00 <kmc> Hooloovo0: yeah I got the gist of it
04:00:14 <kmc> it's a clever solution really
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08:59:03 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Hellborne]]": Author request: abandoned idea, didn't get very far with design
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10:56:14 <fizzie> I though they'd gotten bored of that.
10:56:48 <int-e> I had the same hope.
10:57:14 <int-e> fizzie: Can you invite Sigyn? I think it should trigger on blatant repeated messages like that.
10:58:58 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
10:59:00 -!- Sigyn has joined.
10:59:00 <Sigyn> ** Warning: if there is any bot in #esoteric which should be exempted from Sigyn, contact staffers before it gets caught **
10:59:17 <fizzie> That's a little scary.
10:59:21 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
11:01:49 <int-e> I guess esowiki is at risk?
11:02:16 <int-e> not sure about the rest, they usually just react and are not too repetetive.
11:02:37 <fizzie> Well, depends on what you ask them to do.
11:03:25 <fizzie> zemhill_* can also repeat the same message over and over again, if someone's submitting stuff on the webs. Hmm.
11:05:30 <int-e> I'm kind of curious how this will/would play out.
11:07:20 <myname> it is not that uncommon that people ask the same trigger repeatedly, but i guess, that shouldn't be too often
11:11:16 <fizzie> Maybe I should talk to a staffer anyway.
11:11:44 <fizzie> Also, maybe I should register an account for HackEso.
11:12:02 -!- wib_jonas has joined.
11:13:26 <wib_jonas> Is there a doc for that bot? It doesn't mention one in Taxonomy
11:14:10 <fizzie> I found relatively little information about it by Googling.
11:17:20 <wib_jonas> it has a freenode/* cloak though, let me ask #freenode
11:21:55 <wib_jonas> fizzie: "<Fuchs> wib_jonas: the bot k-lines (and kills, in addition) on various triggers, most famously people repeating patterns"
11:22:01 <wib_jonas> "<Fuchs> so it most certainly does have side effects, and if the channel has official bots that could look a bit spammy, we should be informed so we can whitelist them before putting sigyn in the channel"
11:22:17 <wib_jonas> fizzie: go to #freenode and talk to ops there
11:22:37 <wib_jonas> fizzie: also, they admit that is ran by freenode
11:23:40 <fizzie> Yeah, I'm trying to get an account for HackEso and esowiki because I assume that'd be useful for whitelisting.
11:24:08 <int-e> fizzie: now I'm feeling bad for causing you work :/
11:24:16 <fizzie> (I think I'm just going to need to connect as them temporarily, since I don't think either has a great way of injecting raw text.)
11:25:45 <int-e> yeah at the very least you'll have to acquire the nick somehow
11:26:21 <int-e> but they also have to learn to register with nickserv on startup.
11:26:42 <int-e> well, authenticate
11:26:55 <fizzie> There's the password approach, I think both of them can do that.
11:27:36 -!- HackEso has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
11:29:53 <fizzie> Hm, well, I don't think multibot actually does passwords. I'll hack that in.
11:30:52 <wib_jonas> fizzie: there are at least three ways to log in: (1) with PASSWD, (2) with NICKSERV ID , (3) with the CTCP extension. I can send details if you want later about how the CTCP thing works.
11:31:10 <wib_jonas> each one sends password as cleartext, but that can be inside an ssl/tls connection in either case
11:32:25 <fizzie> I think that should maybe do it.
11:32:37 -!- HackEso has joined.
11:32:48 <fizzie> Yes, that seems to have worked.
11:33:01 <wib_jonas> I have old source code that implemented the CTCP login and worked at one point, though for freenode only and errors out on any other network
11:33:35 <wib_jonas> HackEso is logged into nickserv as HackEso, or so the server claims
11:34:16 <int-e> wib_jonas: I've heard about SASL... but CTCP?
11:34:37 <wib_jonas> I'm talking off the top of my head because I'm a towkr
11:35:01 <wib_jonas> it's SASL, which has so many S and L in its name that you'd think it uses some cryptographic challenge, but it doesn't
11:35:15 <int-e> Okay. CTCP is just a special kind of PRIVMSG so it seemed out of place.
11:35:22 <wib_jonas> it just encodes the account name and password in base64
11:35:23 <fizzie> Well, it can, right? There are SASL methods that involve crypto.
11:35:30 * int-e uses CTCP all the time!
11:35:47 <fizzie> Anyway, I think I'm fine with a TLS connection + PASS on connect.
11:36:15 <fizzie> (The bouncer I use for myself + for fungot does SASL.)
11:36:15 <fungot> fizzie: keep in mind, but i'm sure you can
11:36:25 <wib_jonas> FireFly: are you running j-bot? fizzie has invited Sigyn to #freenode . it's a bot ran by freenode that k-lines users who spam the channel
11:41:09 -!- esowiki has joined.
11:42:21 <fizzie> Okay, I think esowiki, fungot, HackEso, lambdabot are all registered now.
11:42:21 <fungot> fizzie: in fnord it only runs where ghc runs :)
11:42:48 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
11:43:42 <wib_jonas> fizzie: and you mentioned zemhill_________ too
11:44:14 <fizzie> Yes, I just don't want to touch that at this point. It's used very very little.
11:45:43 <fizzie> So what's the normal rule for talking to Freenode ops, should I just pick a random one on the list or ask on the channel?
11:47:12 <wib_jonas> fizzie: in this case, ask Fuchs on #freenode what to do since he already answered a question
11:47:38 <wib_jonas> if it's not a secret thing, then asking on #freenode is the normal way
11:47:53 <wib_jonas> but some operatorial things shouldn't be public, in which case you have to privmsg them
11:48:05 <wib_jonas> like, if you want to mention specific details about the spammer
11:48:18 <int-e> Though the way #freenode is currently set up only staffers will see the messages anyway, I guess.
11:48:38 <int-e> (But their answers will be visible to all.)
11:48:44 <fizzie> Oh, that's interesting.
11:48:49 <wib_jonas> int-e: no, it's not on +mz right now
11:48:54 <int-e> Huh, that's false...
11:49:06 <int-e> wib_jonas: Funny though I didn't see your question? Let me check again.
11:49:12 <int-e> wib_jonas: Or did you ask before I joined?
11:49:15 <fizzie> Right, it's that moderation thing.
11:49:43 <int-e> wib_jonas: You asked about Sigyn on #freenode.
11:50:15 <int-e> wib_jonas: I joined around 12:58, I saw the answer around 13:19... I didn't see your question.
11:50:58 <int-e> But it didn't occur to me that it may have taken longer than 20 minutes to get it... hence my question here, now.
11:54:20 <wib_jonas> int-e: they have unidentified users quieted
11:54:30 <wib_jonas> int-e: in the mode #freenode +q $~a
11:55:08 <wib_jonas> there, now I'm identified, you'll see if I say anything on #freenode, but I no longer have a reason to say anything there
11:56:14 <int-e> I was mystified. I hate being mystified by technology, that's what magic is for :)
12:31:31 -!- Sgeo has joined.
12:55:24 <esowiki> [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66559&oldid=66501 * TwilightSparkle * (+908)
12:56:16 -!- atslash has joined.
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13:08:20 <esowiki> [[Byter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66560&oldid=66337 * PaniniTheDeveloper * (+0)
13:18:22 <fizzie> For the record, the Sigyn exemption for those four has been done.
13:20:17 <int-e> lambdabot: spam away!
13:21:30 * int-e surreptitiously hides a lambdabot-shaped sock puppet away.
13:21:44 <arseniiv> lambdabot: what does two added to three centillions equal?
13:22:46 <arseniiv> wait, int-e, are you still there?
13:22:56 <int-e> > 2 + 3*10^303 -- 2 + 3*10^600 in B.E. doesn't fit into IRC.
13:22:58 <lambdabot> 3000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...
13:23:23 <int-e> arseniiv: I don't know what a centillion is.
13:23:40 <arseniiv> I found it strange lambdabot didn’t say anything to my plain text question at all
13:23:45 <int-e> (Well, I do for the moment but I have no intent of retaining the information.)
13:23:53 <wib_jonas> if there's such an animal as a llama, then there could be a llion too
13:23:59 <int-e> arseniiv: You do know that she's a bot, right?
13:24:08 <arseniiv> I don't know what a centillion is. => I don’t remember that too
13:24:31 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: usually he answers when you use one of the four prefixes, @ ? > :t
13:24:32 <int-e> arseniiv: And I did hide the sock puppet; it would be foolish to retrieve it just to answer your question.
13:24:55 <int-e> I might be caught lambdabot-handed.
13:25:24 <wib_jonas> @run string "arseniiv: dimension error"
13:25:25 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: string :: [Char] -> t
13:25:30 <wib_jonas> @run var "arseniiv: dimension error"
13:25:40 <arseniiv> int-e: but there could be at least a non-answer like… like I don’t know what precisely but at least something to make sure there’s no infinite loop anywhere
13:26:04 <int-e> arseniiv: try fungot.
13:26:20 <j-bot> wib_jonas: what (is a centillion)
13:26:30 <fungot> I, on the other hand, will never tolerate being used by humans for pretending to be machines.
13:26:47 <arseniiv> perlbot: what is that with making the text yellow
13:26:47 <j-bot> wib_jonas, jevalbot source is https://github.com/FireyFly/jevalbot (originally http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/jevalbot.tgz)
13:27:02 <j-bot> wib_jonas, pong: centillama
13:27:12 <int-e> arseniiv: there's also the @lambdabot "trick".
13:27:32 <HackEso> lambdabot is a fully functional bot. just don't ask about @src. or the neighbours.
13:27:43 <lambdabot> src <id>. Display the implementation of a standard function
13:28:05 <arseniiv> <int-e> I might be caught lambdabot-handed. => at least it’s better than right-handed or, I don’t want to say that, left-handed
13:29:21 <int-e> arseniiv: Oh, are you being plagued by sinister thoughts?
13:29:41 <int-e> Does fungot know any puns?
13:29:42 <fungot> int-e: i think that's an ( invalid) octal number.
13:30:38 <arseniiv> fungot: may I impersonate you for a while, and if so, how could I achieve that?
13:30:39 <fungot> arseniiv: and they are slow and cost 25 cent in euros, no matter
13:30:55 <wib_jonas> int-e: look through the quotes file, it may have some puns that he committed
13:31:09 <fungot> int-e: to fnord? that's scary stuff!
13:31:10 <HackEso> 10) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 13) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 56) <fungot> i am sad ( of course by analogy)
13:31:11 <arseniiv> ah! it’s a robbery, I can’t afford those prices
13:31:26 <fungot> arseniiv: dimension error
13:32:17 <int-e> fizzie: ^^ there's a business model for you.
13:32:53 <arseniiv> wib_jonas: this works but I would be caught when writing that in chat
13:33:12 <wib_jonas> wait, do we really have 102 fungot quotes?
13:33:12 <fungot> wib_jonas: you did some design decisions seemed silly to do a program, though. that means i can have some data carried along with it
13:33:18 <arseniiv> I want to do that secretly. Or, should I say, I definitely don’t want that
13:33:55 <int-e> wib_jonas: Well, fungot never sleeps.
13:33:59 <arseniiv> fungot has their own secret business too
13:34:00 <fungot> arseniiv: ah. so nothing i can do: ' fnord' peers.) ( all it's missing after that will immediately be allocated on the pinned heap?
13:34:29 <arseniiv> allocates and deallocates things and doesn’t say anyone where and why
13:34:33 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: I think buubot2 had such functionality, but buubot3 doesn't have it, perhaps because it's so easy to abuse
13:35:34 <arseniiv> I should write a useful bot and get a trust of #esoteric with it and then…
13:37:11 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: you can try running commands in HackEso/j-bot/lambdabot/fungоt that take some time to run, like up to ten seconds or whatever the timeout is, then if there's a lot of other chat, perhaps people will miss your command.
13:37:13 <lambdabot> LOWI 081320Z 28005KT 250V320 9999 FEW070 SCT100 14/06 Q1014 NOSIG
13:37:32 <int-e> . o O ( winter is coming )
13:37:33 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: it's the easiest with HackEso, since on a timeout, it just prints the output so far with no error message
13:37:53 <wib_jonas> `perl -efor(1..999){sleep 1;print("$_ ")}
13:38:12 <arseniiv> wib_jonas: then if there's a lot of other chat, perhaps people will miss your command. => hmmmmn I have doubts
13:38:28 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: HackEso is also pretty programmable, so you can make it give surprising results that seem unconnected to your query
13:38:42 <wib_jonas> `perl -efor(1..999){sleep 1;print("$_ ");flush STDOUT}
13:39:13 <HackEso> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29
13:39:19 <fungot> arseniiv: is that not many people have understanding the concept. on fnord, and so
13:40:06 <wib_jonas> lambdabot and j-bot support assignments too, so you can just make any variable or function have an unexpected value, and in j-bot, you can even change values from private message if you know the right incantations, but the drawback is that j-bot and lambdabot always mentions the nick of whoever they reply to
13:40:34 <wib_jonas> and you can give assignments in private message
13:42:06 <wib_jonas> but it's not easy in either j-bot or lambdabot to redefine builtins
13:42:14 <wib_jonas> eg. it's not easy to make them say that 2+2 is 5
13:42:50 <wib_jonas> if you try to redefine (+), you just get a message about how it's ambiguous with Prelude.(+)
13:43:44 <wib_jonas> iirc rust works more sanely, because wildcard imports (like how you import every symbol that Prelude exports) can be shadowed by a symbol that is either local to a package or imported by name
13:49:39 <wib_jonas> > maр (10*) [3,1,4,1,5,9,2] -- arseniiv
13:49:40 <lambdabot> [30,10, Ok, this is getting boring
13:51:27 -!- fungot has quit (Changing host).
13:51:27 -!- fungot has joined.
13:52:17 -!- HackEso has quit (Changing host).
13:52:17 -!- HackEso has joined.
13:53:18 <wib_jonas> there's one way that buubot3 lets you cheat: while it's running the eval command (which evaluates a perl statement) in a sandbox, it's running all of them in the same sandbox, so if more than one buubot command is simultaneously running an eval, than one can kill, or perhaps even ptrace, the other
13:53:32 <wib_jonas> ptrace may be impossible, but I experimented with killing a lot
13:54:40 <wib_jonas> fizzie: no! don't add cloaks. they're usually longer than an ordinary hostname, so the max response length that they can give gets shorter
13:55:02 <wib_jonas> fizzie: or if you do give them cloaks, then make sure to edit the spore or similar commands in HackEso to know about the new max message length
13:58:28 <wib_jonas> ``` perl -e'for$n(0..49){printf"%02d",$n;for$l("A".."Z"){print $l,lc($l)}}' | sport
13:58:29 <HackEso> 1/6:00AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz01AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz02AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz03AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz04AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz05AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz06AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz07AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz08AaBbCcDdE
13:58:31 <HackEso> 2/6:kLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz09AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz10AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz11AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz12AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz13AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz14AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz15AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz16AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPp
13:58:55 <wib_jonas> fizzie: ^ see, sport skipped some letters between 08 and 09 there
13:58:56 <fizzie> wib_jonas: Kind of too late now, didn't think of that. :/
13:59:16 <HackEso> sport <n> divides its input into irc-sized pieces and displays the nth (default first). The pipe version of `1. See also spore.
13:59:17 <HackEso> spore <n> stores its input in tmp/spout and displays the nth line (default first). For a version considering irc line lengths, see sport. See also `spam.
13:59:48 <wib_jonas> fizzie: for lambdabot, it probably matters less, because it has a very short message length on channels, and breaks into multiple lines for private messages
13:59:58 <wib_jonas> but for HackEso this should be changed I think
14:00:17 <wib_jonas> also now it can look at the IRC_* variables to know how long the target is
14:01:05 <wib_jonas> also, this is the sort of thing why I don't trust the HackEso scripts and just use coreutils and perl one-liners when using HackEso
14:01:49 <int-e> lambdabot's fairly conservative about IRC message lengths... I seem to recall 350 characters for privmsg?
14:02:18 <fizzie> HackEso was tuned for throughput, not reliability.
14:02:19 <wib_jonas> it gave up after two list entries above, so that should fit
14:02:34 <fizzie> I'm kind of reluctant to bother them again, after I mentioned the cloaks after the Sigyn whitelisting and they said it would've been nice to have been told about that first.
14:03:06 <wib_jonas> fizzie: sorry, I didn't know that you'd be applying for cloaks
14:03:15 <fizzie> Yeah, I should've mentioned.
14:03:37 <wib_jonas> I never asked cloaks for my bots, because the hostname that they used was shorter than any cloak
14:03:57 <wib_jonas> that said, you could of course try to register the esolangs community and get shorter cloaks eventually after a year....
14:04:01 <fizzie> I don't think it's an issue for fungot, since it's got a conservative max length too. And probably not for esowiki either, because it doesn't matter if it truncates long titles a little more.
14:04:01 <fungot> fizzie: let's try to factor 4 using shor's algorithm. :)... nah, just obfuscating often result in getting a scheme to play with them.)
14:04:17 <fizzie> For HackEso it's a little unfortunate.
14:04:32 <fizzie> I remember we changed the username to ~h to get a few extra characters out.
14:04:48 <wib_jonas> yes. we should golf the channel name too.
14:05:08 <wib_jonas> sadly iirc freenode doesn't allow non-ascii channel names
14:06:08 <wib_jonas> so we can't use the four-byte channel name #ꙮ
14:06:29 <fizzie> Well, I'll look at the length situation when I get home.
14:07:33 <HackEso> [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O]
14:07:53 <int-e> Heh, I guessed correctly.
14:10:52 <wib_jonas> and HackEso's old hostname is pretty short too
14:11:48 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arkup-nemesis is mediawiki's default diff. He twice punned without noticing it.
14:11:50 <wib_jonas> int-e: sure, by breaking messages to more likes, causing more spam
14:12:02 <int-e> Even this quote fits. ;-)
14:16:57 <HackEso> Spelling of -ance/-ence words: advance, science, conference, experience, finance, insurance, licence, performance, reference, assistance, balance, defence, difference, distance, evidence, acceptance, appliance, audience, compliance, importance, influence, instance, intelligence, maintenance, preference, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, violence, absence, accordance, alliance, appearance, assurance, attendance, circumstance, clearance,
14:16:59 <HackEso> B҉ͭR̲̞Iͪ͞L̡͠L̝̊I̤ͣA̍҉N̏́T̈͡ ̐̇ȉ̲s̉̐ ̸̉ḷ̂i̪̱k͉ͬḛ็ ͓̪t็ͬh̺̊e͜͢ ͏͛B̈ͅE̳̘S̰ͤTͬͧ ̰̕w̺̼o̷̓ŕ͂d̹̠ ͍͑i͚̾n̺̮ ̇͑t͗̍hͧ͌ḙ͕ ̻͜ű̖ňͤi̴͠v̸̧ḛ͔ř̭s͍͠ẻ̗ ͏̲a̮̺nͣ͟d̝ͨ ̳͗i̟͘ẗ͎ ̼̲ẘ̦i̭ͮl̢̋l̨̉ ̺͌c̑͡h̽̀âͮn̩̈́g̫ͣe͉͒ ͦ̓y̙͕o̔͒u̷ͬr͂͐ ̓͝l͙͐ȉ͕f̹́ẹ̲ ̤̹F̌ͅÒ
14:17:01 <HackEso> You can trust Zarutian. He fixes, as an electronics technician, banal mistakes of electronics engineers. Rather cy(ph|b)erpunkish in outlook regarding the 'Net. Knows more about ocaps than you can imagine. Possesses an Icelandic unnerver that ejects freezingly hot lava out of its business end. Bears an 'Authentic fakes provider' seal from the guild of Realers. He is also known for making rather long HackEgo wisdom entries. Take for instance th
14:17:08 <wib_jonas> HackEso says that these three are now too long
14:17:09 <esowiki> [[Byter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66561&oldid=66560 * PaniniTheDeveloper * (+0)
14:17:57 <int-e> wib_jonas: request permission to delete that wisdom entry
14:18:06 <int-e> wib_jonas: (the br* one)
14:23:58 <wib_jonas> int-e: I'm not associated with that one
14:24:39 <wib_jonas> int-e: I suggest to also delete wisdom/$'\xCC\x9A\xCC\x82'*
14:24:51 <wib_jonas> but you may want to check the hg history first
14:25:04 <wib_jonas> the longest potentially valuable wisdom is welcome.ru
14:25:11 <HackEso> Добро пожаловать в Международный центр по разработке и внедрению языков эзотерического программирования! Для получения дополнительной информации посетите wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (Для другого типа эзотеризма попробуйте #esoteric в EFnet или DALnet.)
14:25:57 <wib_jonas> I think with a 16-byte nickname, welcome.ru might just about fit in the output
14:26:25 <wib_jonas> `добро-пожаловать zemhill_________
14:26:26 <HackEso> zemhill_________: Добро пожаловать в Международный центр по разработке и внедрению языков эзотерического программирования! Для получения дополнительной информации посетите wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (Для другого типа эзотеризма попробуйте #esoteric в EFnet или DALnet.)
14:26:35 <wib_jonas> `добро-пожаловать 1zemhill_________
14:26:36 <HackEso> 1zemhill_________: Добро пожаловать в Международный центр по разработке и внедрению языков эзотерического программирования! Для получения дополнительной информации посетите wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (Для другого типа эзотеризма попробуйте #esoteric в EFnet или DALnet.
14:27:32 <wib_jonas> does this web client enable that obsolete extension that adds a one character prefix to messages telling whether the user is logged in to nickserv?
14:27:49 <wib_jonas> some versions of xchat enables them, and then you get one fewer bytes of space
14:28:51 <fizzie> Maybe. Both the zemhill_________ and 1zemhill_________ ones fit in here.
14:29:04 <fizzie> Oh, no, it didn't, I'm just blind.
14:29:18 <fizzie> The latter cut off the ). So either the web client doesn't, or this client does.
14:29:52 <wib_jonas> the web client cust off the one with 1zemhill*, but that's an overlong nickname
14:29:56 <HackEso> 729) <fungot> itidus21: hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, h
14:30:20 <HackEso> 729) <fungot> itidus21: hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, h \
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14:32:10 <HackEso> PDF stands for Pretty Depressing Format.
14:32:13 <HackEso> Nicely formatted classical wisdoms and quotes book at https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf
14:41:46 <fizzie> We recently had the occasion to send some PDF files to an official thing, and turns out they were only able to view some of them. Presumably due to some sort of software incompatibility somewhere.
14:43:20 <fizzie> I couldn't find out any sort of patterns in what worked and what didn't, though. The PDF 1.4 files generated by wkhtmltopdf were fine. The ones that allegedly only showed up as blank were PDF 1.3 and 1.5 files (but why would they support only 1.4 in the middle?), generated by printing from Gimp or with 'pdftk' concatenating from various sources.
14:43:41 <fizzie> All in all, it was a pretty depressing format.
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14:45:59 <wib_jonas> fizzie: perhaps the default options were changed between those versions because people did debug out what doesn't work and reported which features some official things don't support
14:46:17 <wib_jonas> you could probably fix it by changing the options, but you don't know what you have to change the options to
14:46:31 <wib_jonas> fizzie: it wasn't a paper size thing, right?
14:46:48 <fizzie> Not as far as I can tell, they were all A4 according to pdfinfo.
14:46:58 <int-e> It's a Pretty Dubious Format too.
14:48:10 <fizzie> ...well, there are *some* differences in paper size, some are "595.28 x 841.89 pts (A4)" and others "595 x 842 pts (A4)".
14:48:43 <myname> how do you draw .38 pts?
14:49:09 <fizzie> I think my current plan is to print all the non-working ones, and send them the PDFs generated by the printer/scanner/copier machine at work, under the assumption that that's been engineered to work as widely as possible.
14:53:50 <myname> fizzie: you don't support "1.4 in the middle". you support the brand new 1.4 as soon as it comes out, drop support for 1.3 and never update to 1.5 once it shows up
14:55:10 <int-e> Potable Document Format - perfect for drinking games.
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16:18:07 <arseniiv> int-e: one time or another, I think we all guessed that (at least to Adobe) it was a Profitable Document Format
16:25:56 <arseniiv> if one stels i and f from “profitable” (getting “portable”) and adds them to “acrobat”, it will become an obvious/ominous “boar if cat”
16:26:23 <arseniiv> it was Adobe’s plan all along!
16:27:20 <arseniiv> and it certainly is not something good. I don’t know what it is though
16:29:21 <int-e> here's another: potentially dangerous file
16:30:09 <imode> programmable dangerous format.
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17:21:29 <esowiki> [[DNA-Sharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66562&oldid=46377 * Dtuser1337 * (+0) conversion for quine section
17:25:43 <esowiki> [[DNA-Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66563&oldid=66562 * Dtuser1337 * (+5) /* Quine */ symbol mode quine
17:25:56 <esowiki> [[DNA-Sharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66564&oldid=66563 * Dtuser1337 * (+1) /* Quine */ oops
17:26:28 <b_jonas> so apparently HackEso pays 18 bytes more tax to freenode per line than it used to
17:33:38 <esowiki> [[DNA-Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66565&oldid=66564 * Dtuser1337 * (+54) /* Quine */ possible implementation of the helix converted version from the line version.
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17:41:23 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66566&oldid=66240 * Dtuser1337 * (-3) /* commands */
17:44:48 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66567&oldid=66566 * Dtuser1337 * (-104) /* commands */
17:45:08 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66568&oldid=66567 * Dtuser1337 * (-13) /* commands */
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17:57:21 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66569&oldid=66568 * Dtuser1337 * (+132) /* commands */
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18:02:50 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66570&oldid=66569 * Dtuser1337 * (+156) /* commands */
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18:06:54 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66571&oldid=66570 * Dtuser1337 * (+86) /* commands */
18:07:24 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66572&oldid=66571 * Dtuser1337 * (+1) /* commands */
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18:38:02 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66573&oldid=66572 * Dtuser1337 * (+772) /* commands */
18:38:16 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66574&oldid=66573 * Dtuser1337 * (-2) /* errors */
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18:45:14 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66575&oldid=66574 * Dtuser1337 * (+74) /* errors */
18:48:32 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66576&oldid=66575 * Dtuser1337 * (+65) /* errors */
18:52:04 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66577&oldid=66576 * Dtuser1337 * (+37) /* commands */
19:00:52 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66578&oldid=66281 * Dtuser1337 * (+80)
19:01:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66579&oldid=66578 * Dtuser1337 * (+130)
19:03:46 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66580&oldid=66577 * Dtuser1337 * (+47) /* Hello world! */
19:06:36 <b_jonas> fizzie: and as for the original moderation problem, shachaf looks pretty reliable and he's often here, so maybe you should give him channel op rights
19:08:58 <b_jonas> I can't think of anyone else that's so often here and looks reliable though
19:09:07 <b_jonas> so in that case we'll have times with no moderators paying attention
19:09:15 <b_jonas> I certainly can't be trusted
19:09:41 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66581&oldid=66580 * Dtuser1337 * (+76) /* errors */
19:10:57 <b_jonas> hmm... maybe FireFly is trustable
19:11:03 <fizzie> I think it was a good idea to exempt esowiki, though; to a machine, the above could look pretty spammy.
19:11:27 <b_jonas> fizzie: certainly when our norwegian village edits the same page twenty times in a row
19:11:55 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66582&oldid=66581 * Dtuser1337 * (+70) /* commands */
19:12:42 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66583&oldid=66582 * Dtuser1337 * (+20) /* examples */
19:12:58 <FireFly> I'm not sure I pay a lot of attention here, but if desired could probably deal with clear abuse when spotted
19:14:19 <b_jonas> by the way, I really hope that Dtuser1337 is not another alias of Areallycoolusername
19:15:40 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66584&oldid=66583 * Dtuser1337 * (+19) /* Roll a dice */
19:17:33 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66585&oldid=66584 * Dtuser1337 * (+41) /* errors */
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19:27:25 <kmc> Hooloovo0: I did the float tank thing
19:27:38 <kmc> it was neat
19:27:54 <b_jonas> FireFly: since I'm so rarely in #jsoftware, you now have chanserv +f privilages, which means you can modify the chanserv access list
19:27:56 <kmc> well, I felt very relaxed
19:28:12 <kmc> and being weightless is great for any kind of physical stress / muscle pain
19:29:20 <kmc> I think I would get more out of it if I was better at mediation
19:29:55 <kmc> they do 15 minutes of soothing hippie nature/flute music followed by 40 minutes of silence, followed by 5 min of hippie music to bring you back
19:30:03 <kmc> but you can also provide your own soundtrack
19:30:09 <kmc> eh I lost track of time
19:30:31 <b_jonas> weightless => yes, I do ordinary swimming, and it is so much better than other forms of sport activities to people like me who aren't particularly sporty or fit
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19:30:57 <kmc> I also found it hard to give a shit about my usual upsetting thought loop subjects, even when I tried deliberately as an experiment
19:31:05 <kmc> which was a concern of mine so that's cool
19:31:19 <kmc> being alone with my thoughts is not always very pleasant
19:31:39 <kmc> anyway it was a cool experience
19:31:44 <Hooloovo0> I find it easy to lose track of time while meditating
19:32:04 <kmc> I bought a book on meditation and will start practicing
19:32:10 <Hooloovo0> not sure how I feel about music, I tend to prefer complete silence I think
19:32:17 <kmc> and maybe go back to the tank in a month
19:32:34 <kmc> (I bought a 3 session package deal at deep discount for new customers)
19:32:44 <b_jonas> ouch. I hate complete silence, but luckily never experience complete silence here in the city.
19:32:48 <b_jonas> no music makes sense though
19:38:51 <Hooloovo0> I have very rarely experienced complete silence
19:39:30 <Hooloovo0> there's always crickets chirping, wind, fans, or any number of other things
19:40:03 <Hooloovo0> certain basements can get pretty close, but there's usually at least mains hum from the transformers
19:42:34 <b_jonas> but do you like it when it's so silent? for hours that is, not just a few minutes
19:50:08 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66586&oldid=66316 * Joshop * (+367) Cthulhu
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01:31:25 <ais523_> hmm, you know how a while back we had a conversation here about how "son" and "sun" are spelled differently despite being pronounced the same? apparently this stems from an ambiguity in an old handwriting style, where "u" and "n" looked a lot like || and "m" like |||, so scribes generally changed "un" and "um" to "on" and "om" so that they at least
01:31:26 <ais523_> had a chance of being readable
01:31:51 <ais523_> so both the "son" and "sun" spellings ended up in common use, and ended up being attached to different words
01:32:34 <shachaf> The other day I was reading a poem which rhymed "love" with "prove" and "remove".
01:32:56 <shachaf> I thought the pronunciation of "love" changed, but maybe it's all the other "ove" words that changed instead?
01:34:04 <ais523_> I think in some traditions of poetry it's acceptable to "rhyme" words simply because they look like they should rhyme, regardless of pronounciation
01:34:07 <ais523_> it's known as an "eye rhyme"
01:34:08 <pikhq> And presumably, they only settled on a single spelling much later, and just _picked_ one for each?
01:34:14 <ais523_> not sure if your poem was one of them
01:34:20 <shachaf> I'm kind of skeptical about this specific case.
01:34:34 <shachaf> I've seen it in multiple poems, and this poem didn't have any other cases that looked like that.
01:34:37 <ais523_> pikhq: I wasn't around at the time, I don't know the details
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02:59:14 <oerjan> `icode > maр (10*) [3,1,4
02:59:15 <HackEso> [U+003E GREATER-THAN SIGN] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+006D LATIN SMALL LETTER M] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0440 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER ER] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0028 LEFT PARENTHESIS] [U+0031 DIGIT ONE] [U+0030 DIGIT ZERO] [U+002A ASTERISK] [U+0029 RIGHT PARENTHESIS] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+005B LEFT SQUARE BRACKET] [U+0033 DIGIT THREE] [U+002C COMMA] [U+0031 DIGIT ONE] [U+002C COMMA] [U+0034 DIGIT FOUR]
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03:08:00 <pikhq> I see, I see. Yes, makes perfect sense
03:10:13 <oerjan> <wib_jonas> HackEso says that these three are now too long <-- weren't they always
03:10:44 <HackEso> 1/1:le/rn//le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past. Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom> \ civic duty//Civic duty is your duty to keep your Honda in tip-top shape. \ 01//01 is an abbreviation that 01 understands. \ soup//What soup, Doc? \ group//Groups are just loops with the property of associativity.
03:11:04 <shachaf> I feel like the joke in le/rn should be deleted due to being so out of date.
03:11:32 <HackEso> int-̈e oerjän oerjän oerjän
03:11:32 <shachaf> The "[/]" should probably also be deleted.
03:11:41 * oerjan looks sternly at int-e
03:23:23 <oerjan> <FireFly> I'm not sure I pay a lot of attention here, but if desired could probably deal with clear abuse when spotted <-- you're already an op through the staff cloak btw
03:23:41 <oerjan> assuming we added that correctly
03:25:50 <oerjan> <b_jonas> by the way, I really hope that Dtuser1337 is not another alias of Areallycoolusername <-- i think we established that is not the same person as the bbc village in norway
03:26:32 <oerjan> (don't know a about Dtuser1337, it's ais523_ who knows how to check such things)
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03:26:58 <ais523_> I think it's unlikely enough not to need checking
03:27:15 <ais523_> but yes, ARCUN only has one account
03:27:41 <oerjan> i think e really meant a
03:27:42 <ais523_> I was surprised to learn that the accounts were different, but in retrospect there are noticeable differences between the two people you can spot if you look for them
03:27:52 <ais523_> yes, it's a who has all the accounts
03:28:04 <oerjan> i mean, whether e was Dt*
03:28:25 <oerjan> there sure are a lot of new wiki users
03:28:41 <ais523_> we get new users at a pretty rapid rate
03:28:50 <ais523_> although most disappear after posting one esolang or making one edit
03:29:47 <oerjan> i'm sort of wonder if that discord esolang channel has more users than this channel, i've never used it
03:30:16 <ais523_> there are a surprisingly large number of people who refuse to use Discord on principle, I'm one of them
03:30:30 <ais523_> however I am generally OK with bridging bots that connect IRC and Discord channels together
03:31:06 <oerjan> CGCC had an ad to the wiki but it no longer does, so i'm not sure where they're still coming from :P
03:31:23 <ais523_> perhaps next year we should try to bring that ad back
03:31:45 <int-e> oerjan: Sorry, all the tentacles and other appendices exceeded my pain threshold.
03:31:46 <ais523_> that said, it'd be nice to make the wiki more non-esoprogrammer-friendly before that
03:31:59 <ais523_> (in particular, some way to find which languages were actually good, more content on the relevant pages, etc.)
03:32:11 <ais523_> the issue being that nobody seems to have the spare time and motivation to put in the work
03:32:18 <oerjan> `zalgo i can't imagine what you mean
03:32:19 <HackEso> i̲͊ ̡̣c̖̞aͤ͘n̮̉'̹̥t͕͏ ̺̬i̘͐m̠̈́a̼̫g̼̒i͚̒n͐̂e̡͇ ̠͂w̟̔ẖ͉á̷t̼ͩ ̓̾y̑ͪo̖ͦuͣ̒ ̒͗m͑̀e̩̱a̗̹n̟̘
03:32:57 <oerjan> . o O ( i've found int-e's secret weakness MWAHAHAHA )
03:33:17 <int-e> This is worse than fn*rds.
03:33:33 <shachaf> oerjan: Remember when some unknown set of Unicode characters would mess up my terminal?
03:33:48 <oerjan> fungot: do you know anything about those?
03:33:49 <fungot> oerjan: i was busy because of homeworks and projects and so on
03:36:33 <int-e> `le/rn zalgo//The `zalgo` command turns perfectly good text into toxic waste. It violates a multitude of UN conventions.
03:36:35 <HackEso> Learned 'zalgo': The `zalgo` command turns perfectly good text into toxic waste. It violates a multitude of UN conventions.
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03:38:34 <int-e> `slwd zalgo//s/UN/UN(icode)/
03:38:36 <HackEso> zalgo//The `zalgo` command turns perfectly good text into toxic waste. It violates a multitude of UN(icode) conventions.
03:39:06 <int-e> what was the sed-last command again btw?
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03:43:04 <oerjan> well it was right, anyway
03:43:24 <int-e> wow, a logically named command
03:43:31 <int-e> no wonder I didn't find it
03:44:28 <int-e> (but tbh I was just too lazy to look... it was less mental effort to use `slwd and retype the entry name)
03:45:01 <int-e> "effort" is a bit of a joke here.
03:53:01 <HackEso> 601) <Vorpal> elliott: well how will you represent "The dog jumped over the lazy dog" then?
03:53:40 <oerjan> i guess no one bothered to add more
03:53:59 <HackEso> angband:Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the greater and lesser people of Middle-Earth together defeated Morgoth in Angband, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel, and Morgoth himself recovered and arrived to Numenor. \ kanada:Your bankers' vain plazas never nurtured no one / And your concrete expanses lay fallow in the sun / And your cities all co
04:04:37 <shachaf> Do you like conflict-driven clause learning?
04:05:18 <int-e> shachaf: See the logs.
04:07:49 <shachaf> Is picking out the next variable to branch on one of the trickiest things in SAT solvers?
04:08:03 <shachaf> Or is a rough heuristic about as good as a complicated one?
04:13:28 <int-e> It's all heuristics. Selecting variables to branch on, when to restart, when to forget learned clauses, which clauses to learn in the first place, splitting clauses into hot and cold clauses of some sort for better locality...
04:13:45 <int-e> Using lookahead for early branches, blah blah.
04:16:05 <int-e> Oh, polarity of variables is in there as well (when you branch, do you try false or true first?)
04:16:15 <pikhq> It is kinda weird now seeing the nick "elliott" in quotes.
04:17:31 <HackEso> 11) <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, you know the rest. \ 12) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE. \ 25) <ehird> pikhq: A lunar nation is totally pointless. <fungebob> ehird: consider low-gravity porn <ehird> fungebob: OK. Now I'm convinced. \ 82) <Gregor> Well yeah, but furthermore u
04:18:45 <int-e> is fungebob a precursor of fungot?
04:19:15 <pikhq> Nah, I think fungot had a different nick briefly.
04:19:15 <fungot> pikhq: i almost got a bf interpreter. i'm not into guis at all."
04:20:25 <HackEso> 25) <ehird> pikhq: A lunar nation is totally pointless. <fungebob> ehird: consider low-gravity porn <ehird> fungebob: OK. Now I'm convinced.
04:21:20 <fungot> Hooloovo0: no no no no no. well ok, perhaps that ruined my experience :) just saying that
04:21:21 <HackEso> 10) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 13) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 56) <fungot> i am sad ( of course
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06:52:02 <b_jonas> ais523, pikhq, shachaf: see http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2013-09-29.2161.html on "love" and "prove"; http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2019-08-29.2618.html on "sun" and "son" which started this conv'n
06:54:50 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, but Areallycoolusername has at least one alias
06:55:01 <b_jonas> ARCUN only has one account? ok
06:57:20 <int-e> nah there is a second account, https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Jussef_Swissen
06:57:43 <b_jonas> "<oerjan> ... i'm not sure where they're still coming from" => one user came to the channel and said he came from bfjoust
06:58:02 <shachaf> b_jonas: Hmm, the first page is in French.
06:58:32 <b_jonas> "<ais523_> (in particular, some way to find which languages were actually good, more content on the relevant pages, etc.)" => yeah, that would take work
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07:00:00 <b_jonas> I prefer to spend my time writing a little documentation about languages that I find out about from outside the wiki
07:01:20 <b_jonas> to be snarky, I could say that we have about 1500 languages on the language list, of which over 200 are languages by A, plus we have like 200 joke languages, so we might start to think of a button that goes to a random non-joke non-A language
07:02:12 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> oerjan: Remember when some unknown set of Unicode characters would mess up my terminal?" => hmm, were you the one who catted irc straight into a terminal and complained when anyone typed a control-N?
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07:03:58 <int-e> b_jonas: ouch how close is that 200 to reality? (Re: A)
07:05:37 <b_jonas> int-e: it's definitely over 200. I started counting to be able to definitely say that he has comfortably more languages than ais523 now and if his motivation was to be the creator with the most esolangs then he can stop now, and yes, I could say that
07:05:39 <ais523_> b_jonas: add BF derivatives in too
07:05:52 <int-e> b_jonas: that is scary.
07:06:12 <ais523_> there's no real problem with creating 200 languages, the problem is with having 200 language ideas and not really fleshing out any of them
07:06:12 <b_jonas> int-e: User:A used to have a list
07:06:26 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, they're already listed on the joke page
07:06:36 <b_jonas> though there are a few interesting bf derivatives of course
07:06:58 <ais523_> there are a surprising number of interesting BF derivatives, just /even more/ uninteresting BF derivatives
07:07:21 <int-e> b_jonas: I'm trying to ignore the problem. You may recall me talking about suppressing A-related esowiki messages.
07:07:25 <ais523_> in general, if you have a new idea for a command to add to an imperative language, BF makes a familiar base from which to start, and the resulting language probably won't be terrible
07:07:59 <b_jonas> I've even seen at least one brainfuck derivative that makes sense to have been created as a bf derivative, as opposed to just being a cool idea that should have been turned to an esolang unrelated to bf
07:08:19 <ais523_> int-e: it's important to have all the edits here so that they can be reviewed, I normally rely on the #esoteric logs to work out what admin actions I need to take (although I do check Special:RecentChanges from time to time too)
07:08:49 <int-e> ais523_: I wasn't suggesting to suppress them in general.
07:08:58 <ais523_> b_jonas: SMBF, Permanent Brainfuck, DoFuck probably all fall into that category (oddly, I don't think DoFuck's on the wiki)
07:09:10 <b_jonas> DoFuck is on the wiki under another name iirc
07:09:36 <b_jonas> I'm not convinced that SMBF is even usable
07:10:01 <b_jonas> is permanent brainfuck the one where you can only change cells from 0 to 1? there's no article
07:10:03 <int-e> ais523_: What I meant is that I, personally, have a specially crafted /ignore for that purpose.
07:10:08 <ais523_> in practice, it's mostly used as an efficient way to initialise the tape
07:10:24 <ais523_> yes, permanent BF is 0→1 only (or sometimes, + only with bignums)
07:10:49 <ais523_> there is an article but it's on a page whose intent was to centralise all the computationally interesting BF derivatives, then it didn't really get used
07:11:10 <ais523_> int-e: that's entirely reasonable, in fact I probably would have suggested it if you hadn't done it already
07:12:03 <ais523_> idea: merge all the BF equivalents into a single article
07:12:06 <b_jonas> there's https://esolangs.org/wiki/Treehugger which I think is computationally interesting
07:12:31 <b_jonas> ais523: there's already one that merges some of them
07:13:13 <oerjan> <b_jonas> "<oerjan> ... i'm not sure where they're still coming from" => one user came to the channel and said he came from bfjoust <-- i'm not asking about the channel but about the wiki, which is presumably where they found bfjoust first
07:13:30 <b_jonas> maybe it was on a talk page?
07:13:38 <ais523_> there was a BF Joust competition on CGCC
07:13:57 <ais523_> (they got the idea from us but ran mostly independently; however, Lymia won it)
07:15:01 <b_jonas> oerjan: there's a new user Msully4321 who came to do one constructive edit, and he says so on Introduce yourself, which is often a good motivation why people register on wikis, but they don't say how they found the wiki
07:15:51 <b_jonas> I think at least one user said that they came from the esolang discord
07:16:33 <b_jonas> do we know where kspalaiologos came from?
07:16:40 <b_jonas> the real one, not the name-taking spammer
07:17:06 <b_jonas> and one user, kmc, came from the ancient past of #esoteric by a time machine or something
07:17:59 <ais523_> I came from http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/ (linked to me by email) via Malbolge and INTERCAL
07:18:45 <b_jonas> I don't remember where I came from, possibilities are other freenode channels and via Intercal or unlambda or Piet/Chef.
07:19:07 <ais523_> didn't you follow me from #nethack4?
07:19:49 <oerjan> i think i saw b_jonas on the iwc forum before he came here
07:20:13 <oerjan> i don't remember exactly how i came here but i was on the old esolang mailing list way back
07:20:19 <b_jonas> http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Rosetta_Code occasionally has code in esoteric languages. should we try to advertise there, from like the pages of esolangs?
07:20:34 <b_jonas> oerjan: that's possible, but I don't see how the iwc forum would direct here other than by Piet/Chef
07:21:04 <b_jonas> and I don't think Piet/Chef is discussed on the forum at all other than in one doc bug report that I posted a few months ago
07:21:54 <b_jonas> I also wrote obfuscated code in perl (and usually rather stupid ones, there's quite a few that I'm ashamed of, but there's a learning curve) so maybe someone directed me here from that
07:22:25 <Lymia> I don't even remember how I got here.
07:22:32 <b_jonas> perlmonks.com is the first website on the web where I was an active contributor
07:22:36 <b_jonas> but it was shortly followed by irc
07:22:39 <ais523_> wow, I just discovered a 49333400 byte Makefile on my computer
07:22:57 <int-e> Haha. Somebody put "(Not clickbait)" into a youtube video title...
07:23:01 <ais523_> it looks like some sort of benchmark for make implementations, luckily, rather than being intended to actually generate a useful output
07:23:27 <ais523_> based on the target names, I assume I wrote the script that generated it
07:23:40 <int-e> (A video that doesn't interest me but that according to youtube is "trending" whatever that means)
07:24:12 <ais523_> "trending" on websites normally means that more people than predicted are visiting it, e.g. the number of views is high and increasing
07:24:16 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, that occurs in titles often
07:24:25 <ais523_> (rather than being constantly popular, or just new)
07:24:36 <int-e> b_jonas: I bet I'll see it more often now that I'm on to this... uhm... trend.
07:25:34 <ais523_> I wonder what proportion of those are actually clickbait
07:26:21 <b_jonas> that may depend on your definition
07:27:14 <ais523_> I guess the definition of clickbait is "something which, based on the description of a link, causes someone to click the mouse more times than they would if they were correctly informed"
07:27:26 <int-e> oerjan: that sounds made up, needs more precision
07:27:29 <ais523_> normally implying that you follow the link out of curiosity then dislike what's on the other end of it
07:27:40 <int-e> oerjan: 97.3211421%, now we're talking.
07:28:14 <ais523_> those things look a lot more convincing if they look like they were rounded from an actual fraction
07:28:44 <int-e> ais523_: I know. It was part of the joke.
07:28:58 <b_jonas> ais523: right, and if that definition was correct then you should report every clickbait on youtube as having a misleading title or misleading thumbnail
07:29:11 <ais523_> I don't have a YouTube account, so it doesn't let me report things
07:29:22 <ais523_> otherwise, it seems like the sort of thing I would do :-D
07:29:41 <oerjan> ais523_: i'm not sure most people know that pattern (i only guessed)
07:29:54 <ais523_> oerjan: I think more people recognise it than know it
07:30:01 <ais523_> most people have seen it before even if they don't know what causes it
07:30:21 <b_jonas> once each I have tried to report things on youtube or on ebay, but I found that even though the entry was clearly something that shouldn't be there, under the report menu there's no choice to report that particular offense among the report reasons
07:30:24 <ais523_> so it gives that feeling of familiarity that makes it more convincing, even if the viewer doesn't know why
07:30:31 <b_jonas> so after that I basically gave up
07:30:37 <b_jonas> I don't recally what it was for youtube,
07:31:36 <b_jonas> but for ebay it was entries where they bunch a really cheap item together with a normal item into the same entry with those select boxes that you normally use to select sizes or colors, the title and first photo describes only the normal item, but the price displayed on the search list describes the very cheap item
07:32:14 <b_jonas> they bunch large capacity fast sd cards with cheap sd card readers this way, but I've seen other similar combinations too
07:32:14 <ais523_> hmm, that could in theory be legitimate if the range of sizes were large enough
07:32:26 <b_jonas> ais523_: no, because the title is misleading
07:32:41 <ais523_> USB sticks ranging from 256 MB to 256 GB, for example
07:32:48 <b_jonas> it's not like "SD card 1 MB 1 GB 2 GB 4 GB 8 GB 16 GB", those are fine
07:33:07 <b_jonas> it's "SD card 8 GB 16 GB" (with other qualifiers) and then one of the sizes is "card reader only"
07:33:10 <ais523_> 256 MB USB sticks are probably close to worthless nowadays
07:33:34 <b_jonas> we use such small sized SD cards for small computers or embedded devices
07:33:42 <b_jonas> where they don't have a built-in flash memory
07:33:45 <myname> i just realized that trending youtube items seem to be highly regional. i don't like that
07:33:45 <ais523_> hmm, I guess there must be a price floor for storage
07:33:48 <b_jonas> but we have to store a small program or data on it
07:34:06 <ais523_> often you don't need much storage to, e.g., just transport single files around
07:34:17 <ais523_> b_jonas: that's nearly always microSD rather than USB, though
07:34:32 <b_jonas> yes, there is a floor, but it's below 1 GB for _slow_ sd cards
07:34:52 <b_jonas> yes, for USB it's less common these days
07:35:00 <b_jonas> everything has micro-sd card readers built in
07:35:29 <b_jonas> also, it's a bit odd, micro-sd cards with an sd adapter are cheaper than sd cards of the same parameter
07:35:37 <ais523_> laptops normally have readers for full-size SD cards but nothing smaller, you need the adapter
07:35:45 <b_jonas> yes, and adapters are cheap
07:36:00 <b_jonas> I've got a lot of them because they give them for practically free with micro-sd cards
07:36:30 <b_jonas> I also have sd + micro sd combo readers with usb port, but I did have to buy them
07:36:45 <ais523_> how do SD cards compete with USB sticks for storage size nowadays?
07:37:08 <ais523_> is the only real difference the connection they use, or are microSD cards noticeably different in how they operate?
07:38:11 <b_jonas> I think sd/micro sd cards are usually better, and I prefer them. usb sticks can be better when they're very large capacity, or if you want to keep it on a keychain so you don't lose it
07:38:37 <ais523_> I'm doing a backup onto a USB stick right now
07:38:44 <b_jonas> I don't notice them being different in how they operate, but maybe I don't use them enough
07:38:59 <ais523_> for backup media, it's best for it to not be too physically small because that makes it easier to lose
07:40:25 <ais523_> USB sticks probably also have the advantage when it comes to desktop computers
07:40:43 <ais523_> because those often don't have a microSD port (sometimes they have one, sometimes not)
07:42:59 <b_jonas> I wanted to say that I'm genrally good at not losing things, but I'm still looking for the red eyeglasses case that I had with me on my vacation
07:58:27 <b_jonas> I'd like to know if Xykon is still using Dorukan's Cloister spell at his current camp in the north
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09:12:14 <lambdabot> EGSC 090850Z 24012KT 200V260 CAVOK 11/08 Q1003
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09:23:15 <lambdabot> ESSB 090850Z 10007KT 9999 -DZ BKN016 08/06 Q0999
09:26:12 <Taneb> I was mostly curious whether EGSN had meta data, it's a tiiiiny airport
09:28:54 <int-e> longitutde: -0.0425... looks fake :)
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09:30:13 <lambdabot> EGBB 090920Z 24009KT 210V270 9999 FEW017 11/08 Q1003
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09:36:07 <wib_jonas> wait... the world's tallest living trees are in the US? what the heck are tropical rainforests for then?
09:37:22 <int-e> Also quick, relentless growth.
09:38:53 <int-e> wow. "Recent reports indicate that trees can survive to be 1000 years old in the Amazonian rain forest." (However, there is very little information on how common these ancient trees are.)
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14:02:57 <esowiki> [[Cthulhu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66587&oldid=64478 * Dtuser1337 * (-183) <pre>ified, i had a hard time doing these.
14:04:27 <esowiki> [[Cthulhu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66588&oldid=66587 * Dtuser1337 * (+40) Adding some category.
14:07:11 <esowiki> [[Cthulhu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66589&oldid=66588 * Dtuser1337 * (+26) MOAR Categories
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14:08:18 <esowiki> [[Cthulhu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66590&oldid=66589 * Dtuser1337 * (+38) Probably object oriented
14:18:07 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66591&oldid=66585 * Dtuser1337 * (+29) /* errors */
14:27:06 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66592&oldid=66591 * Dtuser1337 * (+28) /* commands */
14:29:45 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66593&oldid=66592 * Dtuser1337 * (+46) /* errors */
14:34:06 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66594&oldid=66593 * Dtuser1337 * (+31) /* errors */
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22:06:57 <b_jonas> found the red glasses case. ok, now I can claim that I'm usually good at not losing my things
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06:53:13 <b_jonas> `pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/the-talk/
06:53:14 <HackEso> pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/the-talk/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
06:57:48 <b_jonas> hopefully that will arrive soon too
06:58:48 <kmc> how can i get on a list
07:06:58 <oerjan> with `` echo kmc >> bin/nameoflist
07:07:29 <b_jonas> or these days, you can use `` echo $IRC_NICK >> bin/nameoflist
07:07:36 <oerjan> unless someone made a specific command, hm...
07:07:49 <oerjan> b_jonas: very convenient
07:08:47 <kmc> `` echo $IRC_NICK
07:09:01 <kmc> `` echo $IRC_NICK >> bin/pbflist
07:15:15 <b_jonas> kmc: you may also review our selection of other lists
07:15:27 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; cd bin; echo *list
07:15:28 <HackEso> FireFlist aglist bardsworthlist bobadventureslist calesyta2016list danddreclist don'taskdon'ttelllist dontaskdonttelllist ehlist emptylist erflist flist idealist ioccclist keenlist list listlist llist makelist makelistlist minimalist mlist olist pbflist slist smlist stylist testlist xkcdwhatiflist ysaclist
07:17:40 <kmc> am i supposed to run listlist when i update a list?
07:17:55 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; cd bin; wc -l *list | sort -rn | head -n9 # these are the popular ones
07:17:55 <HackEso> 86 total \ 9 slist \ 8 pbflist \ 8 olist \ 6 smlist \ 4 xkcdwhatiflist \ 4 listlist \ 4 dontaskdonttelllist \ 4 don'taskdon'ttelllist
07:18:07 <kmc> `` paste < bin/ioccclist
07:18:09 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.10575
07:18:49 <kmc> that is... a bizarre way to do that
07:18:50 <HackEso> ioccclist is update notification for when a new year of the International Obfuscated C Code Contest is announced, or the winners for a year is announced, or the source codes of winners are released. http://www.ioccc.org/#news
07:19:42 <kmc> what the fuck is ${@:+ }$@
07:20:38 <rain2> `` echo rain2 >> bin/ioccclist
07:20:41 <rain2> `` echo rain1 >> bin/ioccclist
07:21:03 <b_jonas> kmc: prints its argument, with a colon before if it's not empty
07:21:03 <oerjan> <kmc> `` paste < bin/ioccclist <-- paste takes a filename, which has the advantage of using its url if it's exposed to web
07:21:37 <b_jonas> kmc: so we can invoke lists with an argument that is a url pointing to the news
07:22:06 <b_jonas> o is numbered in a regular way, so there we use a strip number instead and the olist script makes a url from that
07:22:17 <b_jonas> but for most lists we use a full url
07:25:02 <oerjan> i don't think the olist script makes a url
07:26:36 * oerjan usually visits the archive page first, anyhow, to see the title and check if he's missed one
07:26:47 <b_jonas> I'm not sure how @ works in such a case really
07:27:32 <b_jonas> I usually visit the archive page to re-read the previous strip before reading the current one. I don't usually miss an o, except when on a long vacation
07:28:48 <b_jonas> these days I'm the one who first lists them half of the time
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07:59:39 <esowiki> [[Transceternal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66595 * Hakerh400 * (+11850) Create a new language
08:01:13 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66596&oldid=66513 * Hakerh400 * (+20) Add a new language to the language list
08:01:30 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66597&oldid=66037 * Hakerh400 * (+20)
08:03:13 <esowiki> [[Transceternal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66598&oldid=66595 * Hakerh400 * (+6)
08:04:00 <int-e> Hah. http://blog.hackensplat.com/2011/02/vinegar.html
08:20:15 <esowiki> [[Transceternal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66599&oldid=66598 * Hakerh400 * (+24)
08:42:22 <esowiki> [[Transceternal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66600&oldid=66599 * Hakerh400 * (+5)
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09:16:24 <wib_jonas> `perl -eopen$I,"<","quotes";@A=<$I>;$l=$A[rand@A]; while($l=~/([A-Za-z])/g){ $f{lc$1}++;$g{lc$1}//=$_g++; } $p=join("",sort{$f{$b}<=>$f{$a}||$g{$b}<=>$f{$a}}"a".."z"); $q="etoainsrlhdumcgypfwbkvzjxq"; eval"\$l=~y/$p\U$p\E/$q\U$q/"; print $l;
09:16:25 <HackEso> <uelnh> Yar... COG et eo rdeai. <uelnh> :( <Tisd_> Et eo tsmeai?
09:16:51 <wib_jonas> `perl -eopen$I,"<","quotes";@A=<$I>;$l=$A[rand@A]; while($l=~/([A-Za-z])/g){ $f{lc$1}++;$g{lc$1}//=$_g++; } $p=join("",sort{$f{$b}<=>$f{$a}||$g{$b}<=>$f{$a}}"a".."z"); $q="etoainsrlhdumcgypfwbkvzjxq"; eval"\$l=~y/$p\U$p\E/$q\U$q/"; print $l;
09:16:51 <HackEso> OA EOAEW URNEIAUNOMEA DAOMEITDW (CH SOE AUKOT CHA): <elois> Th fuaa oyl adi tylroettea, sutt et purtyl otn, hsei soe Cern otn mhrrog BHAFEIT. Gegidtten teotn sd sei Pdliei Lonrei!
09:17:16 <wib_jonas> Lykaina: ^ random quote transformed by a substitution cipher where the most frequent letter is replaced by "e", the second most frequent by "t", etc
09:17:50 <wib_jonas> for some longer quotes with reasonable words, it will get the most frequent letters right, so it does the easy part of solving the cipher for you
09:17:52 <wib_jonas> `perl -eopen$I,"<","quotes";@A=<$I>;$l=$A[rand@A]; while($l=~/([A-Za-z])/g){ $f{lc$1}++;$g{lc$1}//=$_g++; } $p=join("",sort{$f{$b}<=>$f{$a}||$g{$b}<=>$f{$a}}"a".."z"); $q="etoainsrlhdumcgypfwbkvzjxq"; eval"\$l=~y/$p\U$p\E/$q\U$q/"; print $l;
09:17:52 <HackEso> <emurt> Fseoaid_Siiytn: Hio'a gt oerap; st'r e mloeauc, oia e dlnhtntn.
09:17:55 <wib_jonas> `perl -eopen$I,"<","quotes";@A=<$I>;$l=$A[rand@A]; while($l=~/([A-Za-z])/g){ $f{lc$1}++;$g{lc$1}//=$_g++; } $p=join("",sort{$f{$b}<=>$f{$a}||$g{$b}<=>$f{$a}}"a".."z"); $q="etoainsrlhdumcgypfwbkvzjxq"; eval"\$l=~y/$p\U$p\E/$q\U$q/"; print $l;
09:17:56 <HackEso> <g-eamtletan> 22:55 < jpl> Usk tr E ibhhsiof ns fomodsh ispnktlo ea Uticodd ep E wta'n omoa hlohtlo rz hlsgowni ea BRD?! En ioori deco ta erhsiiexdo ntic. <g-eamtletan> UTUT [...] <g-eamtletan> nuei ei trtveay, deco rooneay t Rslrsa sl isronueay
09:18:23 <wib_jonas> `perl -eopen$I,"<","quotes";@A=<$I>;$l=$A[rand@A]; while($l=~/([A-Za-z])/g){ $f{lc$1}++;$g{lc$1}//=$_g++; } $p=join("",sort{$f{$b}<=>$f{$a}||$g{$b}<=>$f{$a}}"a".."z"); $q="etoainsrlhdumcgypfwbkvzjxq"; eval"\$l=~y/$p\U$p\E/$q\U$q/"; print $l;
09:18:24 <HackEso> <woccoe> Ot's doke uatreuatofoais, yrele tre ievt steh ph wlnu "tlozoad" os "nhei lesealfr jpestoni". <woccoe> "Inhe... In...Tros hlnmdeu fai't me bnie AT ADD. Tros nie--uagme, mpt nidg yotr tyn gaks aib a srelha. ..."
09:18:50 <Taneb> wib_jonas: hmm, I wonder how different it would look if you did it digramwise
09:19:13 <Taneb> I guess that's trickier because each symbol can be in two digrams
09:19:13 <int-e> hmm #esoteric-spam
09:19:17 <wib_jonas> Taneb: you could do a better solver, but I'd add different heuristics, like matching nicks and other common words
09:20:51 <HackEso> 134) <fizzie> It's like mathematicians, where the next step up from "trivial" is "open research question". <fizzie> "Nope... No...This problem can't be done AT ALL. This one--maybe, but only with two yaks and a sherpa. ..."
09:24:17 <int-e> Oh, we have a genuine password of the month candidate: https://leahneukirchen.org/blog/archive/2019/10/ken-thompson-s-unix-password.html
09:24:42 <myname> we already have one, though
09:26:11 <int-e> which is why I'm posting the link, not changing the potm entry
09:26:39 <wib_jonas> right, it's not necessarily for this month, since the passwords are old too
09:26:49 <int-e> (but it's worth clarifying the point, thanks!)
09:27:35 <int-e> It's kind of interesting that this wasn't in common word lists... it will be from now on :)
09:27:50 <int-e> (and that goes for all chess moves)
09:28:47 <wib_jonas> sure, password reuse exists, so we add known passwords to lists
09:29:08 <int-e> (the exclamation mark is funny)
09:33:37 <wib_jonas> somehow I'm reminded of Countercall
09:49:20 <FaeFly> int-e: might help that it used a notation that's AIUI not in common use anymore (re not being in wordlists)
09:58:11 <int-e> FaeFly: sure. "algebraic" notation won
09:59:10 <int-e> FaeFly: But I'm not a chess player and I've encountered this notation before so I'm assuming that at least 10s of thousands people know it :P
10:07:07 <wib_jonas> int-e: sure, Lewis Caroll made sure we all meet the obsolete notation
10:08:40 <int-e> There's that. Though one can enjoy the book without deciphering the chess game (I certainly didn't).
10:09:07 <int-e> Or "did"? Hrm. Grammar.
10:09:41 <int-e> "did" is better, referring to the whole "enjoying the book without deciphering the chess game" notion.
10:09:52 <wib_jonas> int-e: istr the chess game itself is hard to decipher, because we don't see all its moves...
10:10:04 <wib_jonas> there was a question on Stack Exchange about that somewhere
10:10:19 <wib_jonas> but I'm not sure if it was on Chess SE or Sci Fi SE or the new Lit SE
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10:11:22 <wib_jonas> https://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/26946/4918
10:11:30 <wib_jonas> the chess game in Through the Looking Glass
10:12:57 <int-e> That's a relief. :)
10:13:21 <int-e> (I was kind of afraid of there being a sensible game hiding underneath all the silliness.)
10:14:22 <int-e> I suppose this is a bit like searching for the real question when pondering HHGttG.
10:14:42 <int-e> (Or worse, coming up with an explanation involving base 13)
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11:29:20 <esowiki> [[BareMinimum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66601&oldid=61572 * Joshop * (+243) Added some "useful subexpressions".
11:30:41 <esowiki> [[BareMinimum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66602&oldid=66601 * Joshop * (-2)
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14:53:44 <wib_jonas> `python3 -cprint(0.0254/4) # how much is 1/4 inch?
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15:10:58 <wib_jonas> fungot, how many of the sides of a square is one of the longest sides?
15:10:58 <fungot> wib_jonas: it would be sorta pointless to implement these commands, because they're in scope down the whole campbell/ darcs/ schemd5?".
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15:55:56 <shachaf> kmc: You can make a list with makelist, which automatically runs listlist.
15:56:22 <shachaf> Wait, no, that's makelistlist.
15:56:40 <shachaf> listlist just lists lists.
15:56:53 <HackEso> FireFlist* \ aglist* \ bardsworthlist* \ bobadventureslist* \ calesyta2016list* \ danddreclist* \ don'taskdon'ttelllist@ \ dontaskdonttelllist* \ ehlist* \ emptylist* \ erflist* \ flist* \ idealist* \ ioccclist* \ keenlist* \ list* \ listen* \ listlist* \ llist* \ makelist* \ makelistlist* \ minimalist* \ mlist* \ olist* \ pbflist* \ slist* \ smlist* \ stylist* \ testlist* \ xkcdwhatiflist* \ ysaclist*
15:57:31 <wib_jonas> is there a version that only lists lists that don't appear in themselves?
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19:48:59 <esowiki> [[BCDFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66603&oldid=34211 * Rdebath * (+1110) Some example code.
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19:50:38 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66604&oldid=66404 * Rdebath * (+174) Add BCDFuck
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19:51:45 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66605&oldid=66604 * Rdebath * (+2) mutter
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20:42:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MatthewS * New user account
20:46:43 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Matthew * New user account
20:52:22 <HackEso> keenlist is notification for when Tom Hall acquires the necessary intellectual property rights to create the videogame series Commander Keen: The Universe is Toast
20:54:49 <b_jonas> yeah, that one is a bit silly
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22:07:03 <b_jonas> TIL that in Cats, the character that Gus used to play is not called "Firefoefiddle", he's called "Firefrorefiddle",
22:07:15 <b_jonas> and that "frore" is a word that means cold.
22:07:36 <b_jonas> it's strange that I hadn't met that before. if there's such a fancy word for cold, then why is it not used in D&D and other role-playing games?
22:07:44 <b_jonas> like, for spells that invoke the elemental cold
22:09:02 <b_jonas> even M:tG doesn't have that in any card title
22:09:23 <shachaf> You mean in Eliot's poem, _Gus: The Theatre Cat_?
22:09:33 <b_jonas> yes, but more so in the musical
22:10:46 <b_jonas> It's a rare word, it's not in my Longman dictionary, only the larger Oxford
22:11:17 <b_jonas> still, M:tG uses such rare words, and there was a whole Coldsnap set, so it's weird
22:14:39 <b_jonas> Firefrorefiddle the Fiend of the Fell must have had abilities affecting three D&D elements: fire, cold, and sonic.
22:22:02 <shachaf> Golly. I'd thought about homogeneous coordinates algebraically, but never geometrically.
22:22:16 <shachaf> Translation is just obviously rotation around a point at infinity.
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22:37:11 <arseniiv> shachaf: hm rotations in P(V) around points on an affine map correspond to (some) rotations in V conjugated by a shear, and translations correspond to shears so probably together they unify somehow, though that’s not obvious to me
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22:37:59 <arseniiv> though the intuition seems right to me too
22:39:10 <arseniiv> not all shears of course, too, they all should be in a special relation with a hyperplane which defines that chosen affine map
22:41:54 <arseniiv> hm let me talk about two strange coincedences in math and then I’ll go sleeping
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22:47:58 <arseniiv> 1. a translation is uniquely characterized by one of each initial and final points; a similarity transformation, a pair of each; an affine transformation, a triple; a projective one, a quadruple. I don’t know if there exists something more or less natural for which we need a quintuple. Is there any system in this sequence? I’m afraid no, it’s just some very well-known transformation groups so it seems like a coincidence they arrang
22:49:09 <shachaf> I'm currently reading https://slides.com/enkimute/siggraph which talks about all sorts of neat things.
22:49:35 <arseniiv> 2. map sin [0, pi/6, pi/4, pi/3, pi/2] == map (λx. sqrt x / 2) [0, 1, 2, 3, 4]
22:50:03 <arseniiv> shachaf: oh, I’ll take a look tomorrow, then
22:50:48 <arseniiv> and the second coincidence is confusing but happily mnemonic
22:52:52 <arseniiv> shachaf: ooohh!! this is applied Clifford algebra! I hope those slides have that conformal thing explained, why it’s done that way
22:53:49 <b_jonas> arseniiv: sure, a projective transformation in d dimensions is characterized by d+2 points, so for five points you want projective transformations in 3 dimensions.
22:54:23 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I worked with those in my last job, where at least one project involved 3D reconstruction from 2D camera images
22:54:30 <arseniiv> b_jonas: ah, yes, I forgot it all stands only for a 3-dimensional space
22:54:51 <arseniiv> I should have looked at an arbitrary dimension case
22:54:57 <b_jonas> admittedly there we have use or two degrees of freedom less than a full projective transformation
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22:56:43 <b_jonas> no, it's food that crumbles
22:59:00 <arseniiv> also a while ago I found out there is a common confusion of homogeneous coordinates and, well, unhomogeneous coordinates concerning a use case when we use […, 0] for representing vectors and […, 1] for representing points. This system plays out very nicely but is commonly misattributed to projective stuff when it’s not
22:59:31 <b_jonas> you may call the non-homogeneous coordinates euclidean
23:01:03 <arseniiv> This system plays out very nicely => like, if there were only linear operations and the result has form […, 1] or […, 0], then we’ve done a correct affine calculation and the result is corresp. a point or a vector
23:02:30 <arseniiv> b_jonas: generally we don’t need the overall space to be euclidean, though for simplicity we can take one
23:05:06 <arseniiv> I don’t even remember what it should have in general so our points and vectors represented in this way have euclidean structure, the overall thing should be invariant under shears with some special hyperplane fixed
23:05:49 <arseniiv> hm I think it gives rise to something Galileian, like the structure of the nonrelativistic spacetime
23:06:47 <arseniiv> though even that is too much, we’re concerned with two hyperplanes only, not distances between any of them
23:10:16 <arseniiv> for some reason I’m often interested in ways how can we omit the structure we don’t use in some contexts
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23:57:49 <b_jonas> fungot, please publish the next o strip
23:57:50 <fungot> b_jonas: i've never read a paper on using source-to-source transformations to compile scheme to c.
23:58:26 <b_jonas> that's a suspiciously specific denial, fungot
23:58:26 <fungot> b_jonas: you subtracted twice the orig value?' as ' swiping blindly'? yes, but
00:03:52 <b_jonas> fungot, is Countercall turing-complete? can you give the main idea of the proof or disproof?
00:03:52 <fungot> b_jonas: do you think? i mean suing them?)
00:06:55 <fizzie> Proof by lawsuit, one of the more general-purpose classes of proofs.
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03:25:19 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66606&oldid=66476 * Matthew * (+134) /* Introductions */
03:26:05 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66607&oldid=66606 * Matthew * (+10) /* Introductions */
03:32:40 <esowiki> [[User:Matthew]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66608 * Matthew * (+127) Created page with "Hello and welcome to my user page. I have created the following esoteric languages (a very expansive list I know): [[Rouedeux]]"
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03:36:50 <esowiki> [[User:Matthew]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66609&oldid=66608 * Matthew * (+1)
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04:20:44 <esowiki> [[User:Matthew]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66610&oldid=66609 * Matthew * (+14)
04:27:35 <esowiki> [[Rouedeux]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66611 * Matthew * (+2327) Created page with "'''Rouedoux''' (pronounced roo-doo) is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:Matthew]] in October 2019. The name Rouedeux is composed of the French words ''roue''..."
04:28:28 <esowiki> [[Rouedeux]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66612&oldid=66611 * Matthew * (-3)
04:32:27 <esowiki> [[Rouedeux]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66613&oldid=66612 * Matthew * (+142)
04:32:40 <esowiki> [[Rouedeux]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66614&oldid=66613 * Matthew * (+1)
04:33:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rouedeux]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66615 * Matthew * (+131) ``
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04:47:59 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66616&oldid=66325 * JonoCode9374 * (+72) /* Factorial */
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04:50:50 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66617&oldid=66616 * JonoCode9374 * (+55) /* Example Programs */
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06:20:14 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66618&oldid=66596 * Matthew * (+15)
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06:59:36 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66619&oldid=66617 * JonoCode9374 * (+56)
07:01:51 <b_jonas> I wonder if there's such a thing as a fake Foucault pendulum, which looks like a real Foucault pendulum but is somehow rigged so that the plane of its swing remains fixed
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07:13:48 <b_jonas> I imagine that Black Hat from xkcd could secretly modify an existing Foucault pendulum in a public space to one, using his stealth carpentry skills
07:27:14 <int-e> while you're at it, how about making it turn at the right speed but in the wrong direction
07:28:39 <int-e> which, apparently, would be counterclockwise for the northern hemisphere...
07:40:06 <b_jonas> int-e: I thought of that, but I think making it not rotate would be better, because it would look like the Aristotelean or flat earth myths are true
07:40:30 <b_jonas> if you want to control a pendulum in a way finer than that, you want to use it for divination, rather than as a Foucault pendulum
07:41:22 <b_jonas> I guess you could try to be subtle and make it turn in the correct direction but just slightly faster than it should
07:41:31 <b_jonas> see how long it takes until it's detected
07:42:42 <b_jonas> also I think making it not turn at all would be the easiest to achieve technologically
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09:57:00 <wib_jonas> https://www.linusakesson.net/ seems like an interesting homepage with some esolang content. https://www.linusakesson.net/programming/symlinks/index.php is an esoteric language for example
10:17:00 <wib_jonas> and https://www.linusakesson.net/programming/gcr-decoding/index.php contains a rather crazy use of one of the undocumented opcodes of 6502
10:27:02 <FaeFly> yeah, lft does cool demoscene stuffs
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17:33:37 <esowiki> [[Rouedeux]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66620&oldid=66614 * Matthew * (-1) /* Program that prints the alphabet */
17:34:28 <esowiki> [[Rouedeux]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66621&oldid=66620 * Matthew * (-33) /* Language overview */
17:37:18 <esowiki> [[Rouedeux]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66622&oldid=66621 * Matthew * (+0) /* CAT program */
17:42:44 <esowiki> [[Rouedeux]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66623&oldid=66622 * Matthew * (+199) /* Language overview */
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19:26:27 <b_jonas> fungot, how much is 14*16?
19:26:27 <fungot> b_jonas: i can't say for sure. :) i was student, ta, and phd student, though i don't do that
19:26:46 <imode> that was a rather coherent response.
19:27:10 <b_jonas> I'll have to ask some other bot
19:29:38 <imode> fungot: can you do basic multiplication?
19:29:38 <fungot> imode: i just remembered what esoteric programming is all about assumptions that the implementation features a srfi, be it cl or scheme. shivers is not interested in
19:37:43 <b_jonas> fungot, among the Sun's energy output, how much comes in the form of neutrinos?
19:38:08 <imode> fungot: answer b_jonas' question.
19:38:08 <fungot> imode: i did most of it has been fiz who has scared off most visitors.
19:42:29 <imode> https://repl.it/repls/TerribleFairCells
19:42:36 <imode> this appears quite legible.
19:43:06 <imode> almost like smalltalk.
19:44:59 <esowiki> [[Rouedeux]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66624&oldid=66623 * Matthew * (+46) /* Commands */
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20:58:10 <fizzie> I didn't know I've scared anyone off. :/
20:58:47 <imode> I doubt that you have.
20:59:03 <imode> fungot is full of shit.
20:59:04 <fungot> imode: not because the language evolved faster than the interpreted schemes which was kinda disappointing speed-wise.
20:59:26 <fizzie> Turns out that was more or less a literal quote from 2003.
20:59:38 <fizzie> [2003-01-20 23:36:53] <@DiamonDie> i think it has been fiz who has scared off most visitors.
20:59:46 <imode> from an op no less?
21:00:08 <fizzie> IIRC, on that channel all the regulars were ops.
21:00:59 <pikhq> Ngl imode's made me ambivalent on staying
21:02:12 <imode> everybody-being-an-op is easily ruined by the one bad egg that bans people at the drop of a hat.
21:02:58 <imode> used to be in a channel for a local hacker space. the youngest got angry in a discussion about C and banned 18 people.
21:03:46 <fizzie> Well, it was a 10-person social channel, not really for any particular topic. Those don't really have moderation issues so much.
21:04:24 <arseniiv> shachaf: those slides mention “homogeneous coordinates” too in introductory examples :( if they were homogeneous, vectors with coordinates (1, 2, 3, 0) and (2, 4, 6, 0) would coincide but they should not. These are usual coordinates in (dimension + 1)
21:04:55 <arseniiv> hopefully that misattribution isn’t mentioned in the body
21:05:17 <zzo38> Other way than everybody-being-an-op would be nobody-being-an-op is better than everybody-being-an-op, I think.
21:06:10 <fizzie> That's a pretty easy state to get to by accident on IRCnet, so I'm sure we spent some time like that too.
21:06:36 <imode> everybody can yell at eachother and nobody can do anything about it.
21:07:07 <imode> almost like twitter!
21:07:51 <zzo38> That is not true nobody can do anything about it; you can add filters into the client if you want to avoid receiving some messages.
21:08:19 <imode> that is true. I have to wonder what the potential partitioning would be for a really busy and hostile chat room.
21:08:52 <imode> i.e take 100 people, throw them in a chat room without moderators, see who ignores who. you'll probably end up looking like two or more "logical" rooms.
21:09:20 <zzo38> Maybe. I don't know.
21:09:56 <zzo38> (mainly, I don't know, because I haven't tried having 100 people in a chat room without moderators)
21:10:28 <fizzie> (Although IRCnet ircd 2.11 got a "reop mode" feature, where you can set +R nick!user@host masks with the usual wildcards, with the semantics that if the channel has been opless for a while, the server grants ops for a pseudorandomly selected user matching any of those masks.)
21:10:48 <fizzie> (I think there was also a no-ops-ever channel type? Might be misremembering that.)
21:11:31 <zzo38> Yes, some IRC servers if the channel prefix is + then it can have no modes (inclduing no operators).
21:12:09 <zzo38> There is also & for a channel local to the server and ! with a feature to avoid taking over channels when net split.
21:12:36 <zzo38> (The + and & types are also immune to taking over channels, but for other reasons.)
21:24:15 <shachaf> arseniiv: Oh, now I see what you meant.
21:24:46 <arseniiv> shachaf: yeah, yesterday I completely forgot to mention this simple breaking example
21:31:52 <arseniiv> what we have instead is just some hyperplane L “inhabited by vectors” and its shift, L + a where a is nonzero, “inhabited by points”; then obviously we can’t add two points and get a point, but we can take their linear combinations with total weight 1 (and get a point) or 0 (and get a vector), and also we can apply linear operators which take L to itself, on L + a such one acts as an affine operator, and on L it does as its lin
21:31:52 <arseniiv> ear part, automatically. Now we may choose a basis in L and add a to it, so elements of L get coordinates (…, 0) and elements of L + a get (…, 1), voilà!
21:34:52 <esowiki> [[Rouedeux]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66625&oldid=66624 * Matthew * (-5) /* Commands */
21:42:47 <arseniiv> also we can make a silly groupoid on two objects from two parallel affine subspaces, taking morphisms between them be various translations from one to the other. When the outer space has no inner product, there are no natural translations so this is naturally a groupoid and not a group
21:45:45 <arseniiv> (and these translations themselves constitute two isomorphic affine spaces)
21:46:07 <esowiki> [[Rouedeux]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66626&oldid=66625 * Matthew * (+757) /* Examples */
21:47:51 <arseniiv> isomorphic, but not naturally, to two starting subspaces, but naturally isomorphic (via f ↦ f⁻¹) with each other
21:52:25 <esowiki> [[Rouedeux]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66627&oldid=66626 * Matthew * (-21) /* Hello world program */
22:06:13 <esowiki> [[La We]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66628&oldid=58468 * Pelirodri * (+1)
22:57:17 <esowiki> [[Rouedeux]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66629&oldid=66627 * Matthew * (+1129) /* If statement */
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23:02:48 <esowiki> [[Rouedeux]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66630&oldid=66629 * Matthew * (+212) /* Hello world program */
23:10:31 <esowiki> [[Rouedeux]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66631&oldid=66630 * Matthew * (+6) /* Language overview */
23:14:41 <esowiki> [[Rouedeux]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66632&oldid=66631 * Matthew * (+151) /* Language overview */
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00:26:28 <zzo38> In GURPS, skills cost 4 points per level, and techniques cost 1 point per level. A technique improves your effective skill level for one use of the skill, but increasing the skill itself (for 4 points) improves your effective skill level for all uses of that skill. If you have many techniques, then it will cost too much points.
00:27:09 <zzo38> Therefore, I made up this variant rule: techniquePoints = dotProduct x . reverse . sort where x = 1 : 1 : (half <$> x)
00:27:30 <zzo38> I think that mathematically it is better. Do you think that it is better?
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02:56:54 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66633&oldid=66619 * JonoCode9374 * (+1177) Added a whole bunch of Reg commands added since the table was last changed
03:04:08 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66634&oldid=66633 * JonoCode9374 * (+3812)
03:15:44 <Sgeo__> What's the list for Charlie the Unicorn?
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03:54:53 <zzo38> Stone of Lizard Men {2} Artifact ;; {X}, {T}: You may put a Lizard or Viashino card with converted mana cost less than X from your hand into the battlefield. If you do, add one mana of any color.
03:55:06 <zzo38> (It is a mana ability)
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04:04:15 <zzo38> Does any Haskell core library have a dot product function? (It is easy enough to implement; I am just wondering if it has already.)
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05:01:05 <zzo38> Apparently BBC BASIC has a built-in dot product function.
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05:45:16 <kmc> wonder why
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05:58:05 <zzo38> I don't know, but I think dot product can be a useful function in many programs, even with lists having arbitrary number of elements if they are not used as a vector, such as the code I mentioned above.
06:17:07 <Sgeo__> zzo38, gah I have to think twice to realize why that isn't actually broken as far as I can tell
06:17:47 <Sgeo__> Oh I just meant in terms of net mana. It being mana ability speed is probably really really interesting
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08:30:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Kvikkalkul]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66635&oldid=8365 * YamTokTpaFa * (+292) /* I think I shall add grammar and several descriptions but */ new section
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10:40:10 <HackEso> #esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
10:40:11 <HackEso> #esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
10:42:58 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66636&oldid=65802 * B jonas * (+109) /* #Esoteric */
10:44:19 <b_jonas> ``` sed -i '1s"$" https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/"' wisdom/log
10:44:21 <HackEso> wisdom/log//#esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/
10:44:56 <b_jonas> soon we'll have so many webpages with logs that they won't fit in the topic
10:46:52 <b_jonas> (soon as in https://www.xkcd.com/605/ )
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11:15:13 <kspalaiologos> it doesn't matter that the channel might be dead for half a day and only a few people reach it constantly
11:15:23 <kspalaiologos> but we have a dozen of log copies, this is what matters
11:15:42 <kspalaiologos> any turing complete, interesting and not-so-hard to implement languages out therE?
11:15:54 <kspalaiologos> kept mashing random page button for around 15 minutes, nothing interesting so fafr
11:16:44 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: are you familiar with all of the Big Five?
11:17:33 <b_jonas> it goes like, Intercal, Malbolge, Befunge, Unlambda, Underload
11:17:37 <kspalaiologos> btw, additional points if the source looks gibberish
11:17:43 <b_jonas> five famous esoteric programming languages
11:18:02 <kspalaiologos> I've programmed in every single one except Underload
11:18:12 <b_jonas> ah yes, must be brainfuck instead of Malbolge
11:18:24 <b_jonas> Intercal, Brainfuck, Befunge, Unlambda, Underload
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11:51:03 <b_jonas> I just realized. Not only can we no longer refer to printed phonebooks when explaining algorithms on sorted arrays, we now also can't refer to electromechanical washing machines to explain multiple entry points to a subroutine.
12:30:35 <b_jonas> will we have difficulties to explain multiplication to the next generation because they will be buying everything pre-packaged and nothing of which you can freely choose a quantity and has a price per unit weight?
12:31:27 <b_jonas> will we have difficulty explaining Eucliean coordinates because they haven't seen the index of a map refering to map grid squares?
12:33:02 <esowiki> [[BrainCrash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66637&oldid=64733 * YamTokTpaFa * (+19) /* Features */
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14:36:34 <b_jonas> the previous OotS strip was published over 18 days ago. please upload the next one, fungot
14:36:34 <fungot> b_jonas: 1/(sqrt(2)-1) ( fnord) as modulus, 216 as fnord, fnord, fnord
14:37:46 <b_jonas> we usually write that as sqrt(2)+1, but sure
14:46:47 <int-e> soon they'll take as long to upload as they take to read
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16:31:39 <arseniiv> <kspalaiologos> Unlambda is functonal => why does it look like a bad thing?
16:34:34 <arseniiv> BTW there is another side to “functional languages”, going from combinators and no variables (and composition) to defining equations and variables (and composition), on that way you could have reinvented https://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%84%B2
16:35:57 <arseniiv> allowing definitions makes writing nontrivial code a bit less hard
16:43:41 <esowiki> [[User:Arseniiv]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66638&oldid=63723 * Arseniiv * (+176) I think in the end we should have this draft linked to from my userpage
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18:17:11 <b_jonas> arseniiv_: hmm, that article should mention "lazy" somewhere
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18:23:14 <b_jonas> or strict, as it may be, for it makes a difference
18:23:47 <arseniiv> b_jonas: hm doesn’t it? I’ll look at it
18:25:55 <b_jonas> and "currying" too, because without currying, you need some extra builtins for conditionals and for data storage
18:26:14 <b_jonas> as in an if-else, cons, (), null, car, cdr
18:26:25 <arseniiv> > Overall evalution strategy is call-by-need, unless a modification (for example, to allow full IO) has something like Haskell’s `seq` or `$!`.
18:26:27 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:43: error: parse error on input ‘,’
18:27:49 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> and "currying" too => hm I did thought it’s obvious these definitions result in functions that can be partially applicated
18:29:01 <esowiki> [[Falsebrain9Q+Fishload]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66639&oldid=58343 * AnimaLibera * (+3)
18:29:30 <esowiki> [[Falsebrain9Q+Fishload]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66640&oldid=66639 * AnimaLibera * (+1)
18:29:35 <arseniiv> I’ll add some explanations, how better to name the section with them?
18:31:14 <b_jonas> arseniiv: "data storage" I think, for you need currying to be able to data other than from a limited alphabet of function names on the call stack
18:32:05 <HackEso> [U+2132 TURNED CAPITAL F]
18:32:17 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66641&oldid=66618 * AnimaLibera * (+28) Adding Falsebrain9Q+Fishload
18:32:55 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I wanted one section to explain about call-by-need meaning the same as lazy
18:34:45 <b_jonas> I keep thinking of the strict non-curried version of this language
18:36:47 <arseniiv> it would be something akin to the original Backus article?
18:37:41 <arseniiv> where he makes the first functional language, albet somewhat a clumsy one, given that it’s the first one
18:39:30 <arseniiv> IIRC that’s 1977, “Can Programming Be Liberated from the von Neumann Style? A Functional Style and Its Algebra of Programs”. Hm pretty modern times. I thought from the time Lisp was invented it should have been earlier?..
18:40:36 <b_jonas> arseniiv: do you mean Backus's FP? because then no
18:40:50 <b_jonas> the one I'm talking about still has named function arguments
18:43:18 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Pointfree_programming has a link to that one, we don't have a separate page apparently
18:44:40 <b_jonas> but also, the language I'm thinking of not only doesn't have currying, it doesn't even have functions as first class objects either. you can only use function names if you immediately call them. mind you, you can still program Backus's FP that way.
18:45:03 <b_jonas> not exactly the same as Backus's FP
18:45:28 <b_jonas> but the style you program in translates to that well, only you lose named function arguments then
18:51:13 <b_jonas> you can also translate it to a subset of Olvashato where you don't use lambdas
18:51:57 <b_jonas> in all these cases you have named global functions that can be mutually recursive, which is sort of the distinctive feature
18:52:23 <arseniiv> hm maybe I shouldn’t elaborate on call-by-need there, it looks too long or too incomprehensible
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18:54:19 <arseniiv> b_jonas: interesting, and there also is no partial application, yes?
18:56:00 <arseniiv> I mean, I don’t think “currying” is a name for a well-defined language feature, it always confused me what it should mean, and I only see it viable as a name for the natural isomorphism from A×B→R to A→B→R
18:57:28 <b_jonas> wait, let me check how Backus's FP worked again?
18:57:37 <b_jonas> I think it doesn't have named global functions
18:58:13 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you can call it "partial application then, it doesn't matter too much that it's implemented by currying
18:58:14 <arseniiv> though maybe it means that we could write λxyz.A for λx.λy.λz.A and correspondingly f x y z = … for f x = let g y = let h z = … in h in g
18:59:13 <b_jonas> ok, Backus's FP is weirder
18:59:15 <arseniiv> b_jonas: then I more or less understand what language you are describing
18:59:21 <b_jonas> but it doesn't have named global functions
18:59:59 <b_jonas> arseniiv: for the language I'm talking about, you still have a sequence of global function definitions, each one has a function name followed by named arguments on the left, and parenthisized function calls on the right
19:00:33 <b_jonas> but on the right, each time you refer to a function, it must be called by all arguments, you can't pass around function pointers, whether partially applied or not
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19:00:40 <arseniiv> then the distinctive feature could be described thus: no partially applied function is an expression, this would formalize what it means that functions aren’t first class
19:01:07 <b_jonas> and you get new builtins, namely if-else, which is the only way to not strictly evaluate all arguments,
19:01:50 <arseniiv> maybe case-of and pattern matching is better?
19:01:50 <b_jonas> and some builtins for creating data, namely at least nil and cons as data constructors, null and car and cdr as deconstructors,
19:01:58 <b_jonas> but ideally also some basic numeric stuff
19:02:09 <b_jonas> arseniiv: no, that's not enough
19:02:21 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you also can't use bare function names (without any argument applied) as an expression
19:02:58 <arseniiv> yeah I understand, a bare name is partially applied too
19:03:16 <b_jonas> the base of olvashato and common lisp already work like that; they also have explicit way to manipulate first-class functions, but you can't do it as easily as mentioning a function name or partially applying anything
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19:05:00 <b_jonas> olvashato isn't quite like this even without the first-class functions, because olvashato has let and case which lets you create local bindings other than the parameters of the global function, and I don't want that
19:05:11 <b_jonas> (also the syntax is different)
19:11:51 <b_jonas> also, as for what I said earlier
19:12:09 <b_jonas> "will we have difficulties to explain multiplication to the next generation because they will be buying everything pre-packaged and nothing of which you can freely choose a quantity and has a price per unit weight?" =>
19:12:13 <b_jonas> this requires electric cars,
19:12:40 <b_jonas> but I think we're officially in the electric car future now, because this year's Nobel Prize is for electric cars
19:22:01 <zzo38> I don't think so; some people will buy and sell stuff that you will have to freely choose a quantity, even if it is rare.
19:23:41 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, it will exist, I'm just positing that it won't be such an everyday thing that every eleven year old in school sees it and finds multiplication of real numbers a natural and commonly used operation because of that
19:26:53 <zzo38> (Also, multiplication would still be used with stuff other than buying and selling stuff.)
19:26:55 <b_jonas> when I go to the market today, I need to know a bit of cultural context to know which price tags are per kilogram and which ones are per unit, because it's hard to guess
19:28:32 <zzo38> I should think they ought to label if it is per kilogram or per unit. If it is prepackaged then it can be assumed as per unit if it doesn't say; if they are not pricing it per unit then they should not prepackage it.
19:28:44 <b_jonas> most fruits and vegetables are sold by kilogram, but the ones that come with lots of leaves are sold by bunch or single root
19:29:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, but consider fruits: kohlrabi is per single root, but canteloupes and lemons and cabbage are per kilogram
19:29:53 <b_jonas> lemons and canteloupes and kohlrabi have a strong rind so they don't need pre-packaging
19:30:07 <b_jonas> so they aren't packaged, yet you could sell them either way
19:30:21 <zzo38> Yes, that is OK, but they should label them as "per unit" or "per package". I did not say that per unit stuff should be prepackaged; only that prepackaged stuff should be priced per unit.
19:31:12 <zzo38> s/per package/per kilogram/
19:31:42 <b_jonas> there are even roots that are sold per bunch, which could count as pre-packaged, but it's sometimes not obvious to notice the strings that tie a few roots into bunches
19:32:00 <b_jonas> this happens with carrots and radishes
19:32:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, prepackaged stuff is sold by unit except in very rare cases that are clearly labeled
19:32:55 <b_jonas> there are two sorts of exceptions:
19:33:24 <b_jonas> one is for pre-packaged cheese and the like that is sold by weight and the weight is measured in advance when packaging and written on a printed label and encoded in the bar code
19:34:00 <b_jonas> the other is pre-packaged stuff sold in twos or threes, where you can still buy in single units but it becomes more expensive, and you can buy two or three of different kinds mixed and matched of the same price group
19:34:01 <zzo38> Yes; in that case, you would print the price and weight on the label of the individual package.
19:34:15 <zzo38> So the price is both per unit and per weight.
19:34:16 <b_jonas> there's no problem with packaged stuff
19:34:26 <b_jonas> the difficulty is more with the non-packaged stuff
19:34:50 <zzo38> So it is OK that it is like that, since the label mentions the price.
19:35:12 <zzo38> With non-packaged stuff the label still should make it clear about the price.
19:35:35 <zzo38> (If they don't specify, then, I think, it isn't very good.)
19:39:21 <b_jonas> admittedly many of the vendors do specify
19:49:57 <zzo38> Did they make the AD year numbering the way that it is for reasons having to do with leap years since it is not precise according to when Jesus is born?
19:59:41 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66642&oldid=63105 * Arseniiv * (+2582) elaborations for somebody
20:27:41 <arseniiv> I have implemented turned F myself but I don’t remember in what language and where the project is, and also I’m pretty certain its code shouldn’t see the daylight. I probably will someday just write it from scratch in Python like with Punctree. I don’t like I write Python in a usual text editor without IDE hints but this language is pretty popular and you can easily run single files without any special manoeurs so that drives my hand
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20:29:42 <kspalaiologos> b) it's quicker to count atoms in universe than to run it
20:30:09 <arseniiv> (^cont.) and of course I have implemented something like YE…A, even with some optimizations for functions constructed with simple recursion operator, in Ceylon but I didn’t make that human-readable and it wasn’t YE…A strictly speaking, but an interpreter for a DSL
20:30:11 <b_jonas> how can you be sure? if it's so slow, how do you debug it?
20:30:33 <kspalaiologos> the chess engine is just higher scale of the same thing
20:30:49 <kspalaiologos> https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/malbolge-chess
20:31:07 <b_jonas> 32 gigabytes is solvable these days
20:31:35 <kspalaiologos> anyone willing to borrow 24G and a quantum computer?
20:31:55 <b_jonas> a quantum computer? what for?
20:32:40 <kspalaiologos> the quantum computer is able to solve "puzzles" that conventional computers aren't able to
20:32:56 <b_jonas> puzzles maybe, but I don't think it helps for chess
20:32:57 <kspalaiologos> for example, it can break RSA encryption quite eaisly from what I've heard
20:33:42 <kspalaiologos> I've spent my entire day on writing a proof of concept in C, then translating it to assembly, and then stepping down to something 4004-like to finally produce the output
20:34:21 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: hm but your code should use its “features”, like a program can’t just start using SSE or what there is these times, without the programmer writing those instructions beforehand
20:35:01 <kspalaiologos> I have made once a SSE brainfuck interpreter, nothing is scary now
20:36:45 <kspalaiologos> to do it correctly you'd have to know the assembler structure
20:36:59 <kspalaiologos> but as you can reverse it, is there any sense in simplifying the assembly down to malbolge?
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20:47:55 <zzo38> Trick NSA to make the computation for you, by using encryption.
20:50:45 <zzo38> b_jonas: Did you see the Magic: the Gathering card I mentioned and that Sgeo__ wrote a comment?
20:56:10 <b_jonas> does it have "Frore" in its name
20:57:06 <zzo38> Stone of Lizard Men {2} Artifact ;; {X}, {T}: You may put a Lizard or Viashino card with converted mana cost less than X from your hand into the battlefield. If you do, add one mana of any color.
21:01:09 <b_jonas> hmm, there are fewer lizards now, because cards like Imperiosaur have been patched to Dinosaurs
21:02:04 <zzo38> Yes, but there still are some, including cards with changeling
21:02:43 <zzo38> (And you can also use Artificial Evolution to alter which creature types this can be used with.)
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22:08:22 <zzo38> Do you know the "backward" variant of scope (an Italian card game)? Someone showed me that variant, but I don't know if anyone else has written about it.
22:14:29 <Sgeo__> b_jonas, any ideas about what fun can be had by effectively summoning a creature at mana ability speed?
22:17:06 <zzo38> Of course, then you can do it during a mana step, I suppose, which might sometimes allow you to play triggered abilities in a different order.
22:26:02 <zzo38> (There are also ways to play replacement effects during a mana step, even with only Vintage-legal cards. See http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.4 for one example.)
22:42:47 <zzo38> (Well, that one doesn't have a replacement effect during the mana step, but with other cards it can be easy to see that it can still be done.)
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23:32:31 <zzo38> Now I added a "Frequently Asked Questions" section in story I wrote (from the GURPS game), so, if you have a question, then I can add it, please.
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00:57:12 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66643&oldid=66634 * JonoCode9374 * (+25) /* Swap the words good and bad */
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01:41:25 <oerjan> `addquote <kspalaiologos> I have made a chess engine in Malbolge <kspalaiologos> in theory it's decent <kspalaiologos> but it has two drawbacks <kspalaiologos> a) It requires 31 and a half gigabytes of memory <kspalaiologos> b) it's quicker to count atoms in universe than to run it
01:41:27 <HackEso> 1336) <kspalaiologos> I have made a chess engine in Malbolge <kspalaiologos> in theory it's decent <kspalaiologos> but it has two drawbacks <kspalaiologos> a) It requires 31 and a half gigabytes of memory <kspalaiologos> b) it's quicker to count atoms in universe than to run it
02:00:41 <imode> @message kspalaiologos care to share this mythical chess engine?
02:00:41 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages-loud messages?
02:00:51 <imode> @tell kspalaiologos care to share this mythical chess engine?
02:10:59 <oerjan> imode: it was linked in the logs
02:11:32 <zzo38> I read on Wikipedia about digital television captions, and they mention many things I have not seen in other TV sets
02:11:43 <oerjan> <kspalaiologos> https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/malbolge-chess
02:53:10 <esowiki> [[Cupid]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66644&oldid=58294 * IFcoltransG * (+29) Added Turing Complete tag
02:53:49 <esowiki> [[Cupid]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66645&oldid=66644 * IFcoltransG * (+0) Fixed capitalisation on Turing complete category
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05:09:42 <zzo38> I have been writing how I thought should be designed a television set. The digital caption setting menu includes service number 1-63, user override on/off, tag mask, enable flashing, maximum number of windows, font priority (user or broadcast), special effects on/off, auto switching services.
05:12:33 <zzo38> The analog caption setting menu includes service selection (CC1-CC4 and TEXT1-TEXT4), user override on/off, allow/disallow white background, minimum roll-up, enable flashing, enable buffering, alarm on/off, character set (EIA-608 or ASCII).
05:16:08 <zzo38> Common caption setting menu can include: caption on mute, caption relative to either the picture or the screen, style submenu, status menu (can be used for debugging), caption recording. And then, there is also the caption scrollback feature, to review earlier captions. Do you think it is good enough?
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08:33:07 <b_jonas> oh nice. Zach from SMBC advertises his book on http://phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=2033
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08:36:01 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * YouTuringCompleteMe * New user account
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08:47:22 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66646&oldid=66607 * YouTuringCompleteMe * (+275) /* Introductions */
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09:41:22 <esowiki> [[Deadfish~]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66647&oldid=38929 * A * (+124) /* Sample Program */
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10:12:52 <int-e> Hmm, somehow the styles of http://www.yihcomic.com/ and http://sssscomic.com/ are quite similar.
10:16:57 <shachaf> Today I tried to actually figure out the details of CDCL and other tricks a bit more.
10:18:31 <shachaf> I feel like there are some basic things I'm confused about. I should probably implement the parts I understand to see if I become unconfused.
10:19:10 <shachaf> Here's one thing that's not even related to CDCL:
10:20:00 <shachaf> When you need to decide on a variable and you add a literal p to your assumptions, what do you do?
10:20:43 <shachaf> In theory you want to "delete" every clause that contains p and every literal ¬p from all the other clauses.
10:21:10 <shachaf> The two-watched-literal trick lets you only worry about some clauses that contain ¬p, hopefully a small subset.
10:21:26 <shachaf> Do you need to worry about clauses that contain p at all or do you just ignore them?
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10:22:58 <int-e> when processiong a clause you don't put it on another watched literal list if its next literal is already true, so this is part of the watched literal logic.
10:23:59 <shachaf> But then when you backtrack you might add it to a watched literal list?
10:24:29 <int-e> but you don't touch the watched literal lists when you backtrack?
10:25:15 <shachaf> Right, that's what I thought. But then I don't understand your previous sentence.
10:25:36 <int-e> I believe you can just keep the clause on the list that you're processing
10:26:18 <shachaf> So a large number of clauses is just irrelevant for you because you only ever find clauses through watch lists.
10:26:20 <int-e> sorry, I'm confused
10:29:06 <int-e> But I think I got it right nevertheless. So... you go through the watch list of a literal l. If you encounter a clause that is already true in the current partial assignment (while looking for another literal that's currently unassigned), then you can keep the clause on the watch list for l, because whatever made the clause true is earlier on the trail than l.
10:29:22 <int-e> (well, the trail has a negated l)
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10:30:29 <int-e> Meaning once the clause evaluation becomes unknown again, l will not be assigned, reestablishing the watched literal invariant (any clause with unknown truth value is on two watched literal lists)
10:31:05 <shachaf> OK, so the only way a bunch satisfied clauses hurt you is that a watch list might contain them and you might need to sift through them?
10:31:42 <shachaf> And you might e.g. move them to the end of a watch list and possibly be able to stop looking through a watch list early.
10:31:46 <int-e> this is a kind of laziness
10:31:49 <shachaf> Though I'm not sure a thing like that would actually work.
10:32:07 <int-e> (but a good kind because many clauses that become true will never be touched at all)
10:32:47 <shachaf> Hmm, but the ones that become true and are watched will just be inspected over and over because the watched literal will never move, unless you do something extra?
10:33:37 <int-e> Hmm, maybe it's clever to move them to the literal that is true instead.
10:34:07 <int-e> (provided the clause is not on that watch list already)
10:34:17 <shachaf> You can even locate the true literal that's furthest away in the stack, so hopefully you don't see it for a long time.
10:34:34 <b_jonas> what... are you writing SAT solvers?
10:34:42 <shachaf> Er, the last thing I said doesn't make sense.
10:35:17 <int-e> b_jonas: I've been resisting the temptation for a long time. I think I can maintain this state :) Not sure about shachaf.
10:36:20 <shachaf> Some of my questions are about the actual typical operations/memory layout/etc. used by reasonable SAT solvers.
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10:37:04 <shachaf> Others are about clause learning, which seems like one of the most complicated parts of many modern solvers.
10:37:04 <int-e> b_jonas: But I know enough about the basics (DPLL, CDCL, a bit about heuristics) to be harmful.
10:37:58 <int-e> I know a bit more about the verification side. (RUP, DRUP, RAT, DRAT)
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10:39:41 <shachaf> I'd like to know about how that works.
10:41:30 <shachaf> I suspect understanding UNSAT certificates and understanding CDCL are pretty related?
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10:43:21 <int-e> At least on a high level, certification works by maintaining a set of clauses (initially those of the problem) and adding and removing clauses with inferences that maintain satisficability. The last step derives the empty clause.
10:44:56 <int-e> The inference relies heavily on unit propagation though, so for efficiency, you end up with watched literals again.
10:46:39 <shachaf> Sure, atched literals is a great trick.
10:46:57 <shachaf> I should understand regular SAT solving first.
10:48:04 <int-e> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333612067_Efficient_Verified_UNSAT_Certificate_Checking should be a good starting point (including references for DRAT and DRUP).
10:49:23 <b_jonas> shachaf: you should just wait for Knuth to write that part of volume 4.
10:49:40 <int-e> The idea for RUP is that every backjump clause can be derived by "reverse unit propagation" -- assert the negation of the literals of the derived clause, and do unit propagation; if that results in a conflict, then the clause can be added without affecting satisfiability. So all a SAT solver has to do to produce a certificate is to record the backjump clauses which it's computing anyway.
10:49:48 <int-e> (and potentially learning)
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10:50:38 <int-e> DRUP adds deletion of clauses (for efficiency). RAT is a bit more complicated and motivated by simplification of clause sets rather than DPLL itself.
10:53:04 <shachaf> b_jonas: Fascicle 6? I have a copy right here.
10:53:34 <b_jonas> I have technically written a SAT solver once, but it's a rather trivially stupid one, it only works on very simple expressions
10:53:48 <shachaf> It doesn't talk about many of the things I want, though, I think.
10:53:53 <shachaf> I've only read part of it so far.
10:54:02 <b_jonas> shachaf: so does it not help about "typical operations/memory layout/etc."? I'd expect Knuth to talk about those
10:54:30 <shachaf> It certainly talks about those, for the algorithms it describes.
10:56:37 <b_jonas> hmm, https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/news.html has multiple news that I haven't seen
10:57:41 <shachaf> I'll look at it some more after these papers.
10:58:46 <b_jonas> pity one of the links is already broken
11:02:51 <shachaf> OK, it looks like the part of fascicle 6 two pages after where I left my bookmark in it a while ago is on the same topics I was reading papers on today.
11:02:56 <shachaf> I guess I'll take a closer look.
11:05:47 <int-e> I see he gets up to RUP.
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11:16:39 * int-e wonders how close the September 2015 pre-fascicle is to the printed fascicle...
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11:30:15 <jix> shachaf: int-e: While I've been just idling here for years, I just noticed discussion about SAT solving... I've written a CDCL SAT solver and UNSAT certificate checker https://github.com/jix/varisat (not using DRAT though, I'm using a different proof format that records unit propagations during solving and thus can be checked much faster)... feel free to ask me any questions about SAT solving :)
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11:30:57 <b_jonas> idling... does that mean we should `welcome you?
11:31:31 <jix> that just means I was quite active here... I don't know 10, 15 years ago or so and never parted :)
11:31:57 <b_jonas> yeah, this channel has a long history.
11:32:22 <b_jonas> ``` q jix # the quote file doesn't know that you were active... not under this name at least
11:32:33 <jix> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Jannis_Harder << that's me
11:33:18 <int-e> jix: It's funny that you mention recording unit propagations... because the GRAT format does that as well, making for a three stage verification pipeline: simplifier+SAT-solver => DRAT => GRAT (fewer clauses, more information) => verifier.
11:33:38 <jix> int-e: yeah I skip the DRAT => GRAT part which is as expensive as solving in the first place
11:33:58 <int-e> (This is Lammich's pipeline... Heule et al. have a slightly different intermediate format ... I forgot the name.)
11:33:58 <jix> what I do is solving -> custom format -> LRAT (which is inspired by GRAT)
11:34:43 <jix> total time is cut roughly in half, but my solver isn't as good as others on many problems, so it's not that practical yet
11:35:04 <int-e> jix: It's funny though that the overhead of storing and reading additional information like that pays off. (Ah, LRAT. I think that was it. If so, it's a concurrent development to GRAT.)
11:35:43 <jix> I experimented with emitting LRAT directly, but the code to keep track of clause ids became very complicated and introduced memory overhead
11:36:12 <jix> so my next attempt just hashes clauses and resolves hash conflicts during conversion
11:37:12 <jix> int-e: ah maybe it was inspired by a predecessor of GRAT?
11:37:36 <int-e> Hrm, let me check.
11:39:34 <jix> there also is a newer DRAT proof checker, https://github.com/krobelus/rate that can emit LRAT and GRAT that is supposedly faster than drat-trim, but I haven't really benchmarked it yet
11:40:02 <int-e> So... There's DRUP and DRAT as the foundation. There's a format called GRIT that records unit propagation steps. This is a precursor to both LRAT and GRAT, which do the same thing for RAT steps as well.
11:40:35 <jix> ah, yeah, so I was thinking of GRIT when I read GRAT
11:41:41 <int-e> (LRAT and GRAT were developed independently for certified DRAT checking, both published at CADE 2017; LRAT is Cruz-Filipe, Heule, Hunt, Kaufmann, Schneider-Kamp; GRAT is Lammich)
11:44:02 <int-e> "amost as fast as gratgen" - yeah I thought that gratgen looked very good, performance wise.
11:47:55 <jix> in any case I think emitting an LRAT/GRAT like proof directly from the solver is quite a bit faster than conversion from DRAT, the biggest downside is that it is quite a bit larger than a DRAT proof, but if you're not interested in storing the proof you could run the verifying concurrently to avoid that
11:49:56 <jix> I might need to implement that for a competitive solver, though, if I want to convince people of that
11:52:06 <int-e> jix: Hmm, how well does the unsatisfiable core computation work though?
11:52:52 <jix> int-e: haven't checked that yet, it's possible, but it'll probably generate larger cores because there is no core-first propagation or anything like that
11:53:35 <jix> if you use iterative solving to minimize the unsat core (like Heule did for the chromatic number of the plane problem), you can iterate faster, so it'd be interesting to compare it in that setting
11:54:23 <int-e> jix: Yeah I'm basically asking a research question... the answer can't be determined without trying, I think. I certainly don't have the intuition for it.
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12:25:58 <Amiona> Chat 40+ -> https://soo.gd/room40plus
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14:20:41 <esowiki> [[Deadfish~]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66648&oldid=66647 * A * (+106) /* Implementation */
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14:29:22 <tswett[m]> When was the first emoji used in #esoteric? 🤔
14:31:51 <b_jonas> tswett[m]: probably before 2003
14:35:52 <tswett[m]> When did emoji become "a thing," anyway? I seem to remember it was relatively recently that they were implemented on iOS and Android and subsequently (pretty much immediately) became popular in the US.
14:36:05 <tswett[m]> "Relatively recently" as in within the past 5 years.
14:43:12 <int-e> 'Originating on Japanese mobile phones in 1997, emoji became increasingly popular worldwide in the 2010s after being added to several mobile operating systems.'
14:44:05 <int-e> 'The first ASCII emoticons, :-) and :-(, were written by Scott Fahlman in 1982, but emoticons actually originated on the PLATO IV computer system in 1972.' (ditto)
14:45:31 <tswett[m]> Nyope. Looks like iOS got support for emoji in 2011, much longer ago than I thought.
14:48:00 <int-e> Unicode version 6.0, 2010, added those to Unicode.
14:48:02 <b_jonas> tswett[m]: when did it get support for animated emoji?
14:52:08 <b_jonas> soon we'll have animated emoji with sound and smell
14:52:43 <b_jonas> and modifiers for whether the man blowing a raspberry emoji or the crying face emoji are supposed to be rendered with sound on or muted
14:53:32 <b_jonas> and a singing voice modifier that changes the default tenor voice to a bass
15:02:15 <pikhq> Pretty sure those, well, aren't really emoji.
15:02:31 <pikhq> They're pictures being sent, not Unicode strings
15:02:45 <pikhq> (animoted emoji, I mean)
15:05:39 <int-e> I remember animated fonts on VGA...
15:11:00 <esowiki> [[User talk:Palaiologos]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66649 * Palaiologos * (+0) Created blank page
15:37:47 <tswett[m]> int-e: EGA was the first to support those, wasn't it?
15:38:33 <int-e> tswett[m]: I'd have to check. I've never had an EGA myself.
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15:43:35 <int-e> tswett[m]: I still don't know, but at least it's very plausible that EGA supported this trick :)
15:45:11 <b_jonas> darn it! the windows were open so the beeping sounded like it was coming from the outside. it took me two minutes to realize that it was my own oven alarm
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15:55:28 <int-e> . o O ( who doesn't like charred pizza )
15:58:38 <kspalaiologos> once in my life I've been to Venice, there was a guy selling pizza slices
15:59:06 <kspalaiologos> the slice overall was very moist with a lot of olive oil
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16:12:59 <tswett[m]> int-e: Well, EGA definitely supported (the appearance of) animated fonts.
16:13:45 <tswett[m]> But first I'll have to get an IBM PC.
16:14:03 <tswett[m]> One with an 8080 processor, I don't want none of this protected mode nonsense.
16:23:07 <imode> 8080's are pretty cheap, you could just build one.
16:25:01 <int-e> tswett[m]: don't you at least want a proper 16 bit data bus though?
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16:25:39 <int-e> I mean, you already have 16 bit registers.
16:39:29 <pikhq> tswett[m]: https://monotech.fwscart.com/NuXT_MicroATX_Turbo_XT_955MHz_832K_RAM_XTCF_SVGA_Floppy_Serial/p6083514_19777986.aspx ?
16:39:53 <pikhq> (not the literally ideal solution for all use cases of this sort of thing mind, but it is a very pleasant product)
16:41:59 <pikhq> I imagine stock is never gonna be _super_ common, cause it's very much a cottage-industry thing _and_ some of the components are new-old-stock, but
16:46:32 <pikhq> On the other hand, while trickier to get _most_ of what makes that nice can be cobbled together with other off-the-shelf things.
16:47:19 <pikhq> (just less all-in-one)
17:01:59 <b_jonas> oh I see. the "955MHz" in the url was confusing. it's "9.55 MHz" rather than "955 MHz".
17:12:53 <tswett[m]> That's fast enough to run a stock exchange. :D
17:17:54 <tswett[m]> Damn it, now I'm all thinking about writing stock exchange software for an online game.
17:18:13 <tswett[m]> Psst, I'm writing an online game. Currently, you can log into the game, and see how much of various commodities everyone has.
17:18:42 <tswett[m]> Currently it is not possible to gain more commodities, or to do anything with the commodities you've got.
17:19:24 <b_jonas> nothing is fast enough to run a stock exchange. those people are crazy, they put computers in the middle of the Atlantic just so they can speculate a few milliseconds earlier when their choice depends on information from both European and American stock exchanges.
17:21:34 <tswett[m]> Yeah, high-frequency trading is a weird thing.
17:21:59 <b_jonas> I mean, I don't work in financial areas, and admittedly the areas where I work are crazy in other ways,
17:25:02 <tswett[m]> Theoretically, traders provide a valuable service.
17:25:37 <tswett[m]> I want to be able to buy and sell goods, services and capital at prices that reflect their fair market value.
17:26:14 <b_jonas> right, they provide the grease that reduces the friction of the market
17:26:25 <tswett[m]> So if someone puts effort into providing that for me, they deserve a bit of return for their effort.
17:26:42 <b_jonas> they do get their return in the form of money
17:27:47 <tswett[m]> But there's presumably a point where it stops being "they get money in exchange for providing a valuable service" and starts being "they get money for being better at poker than everyone else."
17:29:04 <b_jonas> I'm not sure that's separable. they provide the valuable service by being good at poker.
17:30:28 <tswett[m]> Well, in actual poker, the good poker players aren't really providing a valuable service to the bad poker players.
17:31:01 <tswett[m]> Just like if I go into a casino and count cards, the casino pays me money, but it's not because I'm providing a valuable service to the casino.
17:31:40 <shachaf> Golly. Instead of pointless gambling, people should be able to bet on real things, and thus provide a valuable service to the world.
17:32:31 <b_jonas> as in on the stock market?
17:33:16 <shachaf> Well, stock betting is already mostly legal, and it's useful but it's not the only useful market.
17:33:50 <shachaf> I think mostly arbitrary prediction markets should be generally legal in the US, except one special one.
17:34:05 <b_jonas> or they pretend it's mostly legal, because if we could find out what specific illegal thing they do, the authorities would punish them
17:34:50 <b_jonas> how about the intermediate stuff, betting on sports?
17:35:08 <shachaf> Sports betting seems pretty useless to me, but probably a bit better than casinos.
17:36:16 <b_jonas> sports betting seems pretty popular here, among people who I think don't have any comparative advantage in the bets, so it's just a game of chance, paying for the thrill or something
17:36:24 <b_jonas> I don't understand how it's so popular
17:36:44 <shachaf> It's kind of odd which things are legal to bet on in the US.
17:37:09 <shachaf> For example you can bet on the weather.
17:37:47 <FaeFly> what things aren't legal to bet on?
17:39:26 <b_jonas> the tricky part of the legal rules (IANAL) is not just what you can bet on, but how you pay income tax after them. it's pretty clear that if you win all your bets, then all that you gain on them is your income.
17:40:21 <b_jonas> but if you win one bet and lose another bet, then is it a transaction as a whole and your income is the difference, or is the winning bet your income and the losing bets your spending so your income is what you win on the former?
17:40:25 <shachaf> Except for predictit.org and apparently something in Iowa, which are still not legal but allowed to run anyway?
17:40:45 <b_jonas> there are some rules on that, but of course there are so many, often illegal, new forms of betting, that they can't cover it all
17:40:48 <FaeFly> I guess the UK is more permitting than the US wrt betting on arbitrary events, then
17:40:53 <b_jonas> and it's even harder to enforce it
17:40:59 <shachaf> b_jonas: The answers to these questions are well-established for other trading, so it doesn't seem like a problem.
17:41:18 <shachaf> I mean, if you're betting secret and illegally it's hard to enforce, but the law is reasonably clear.
17:41:36 <shachaf> Yes, the UK is more permitting.
17:41:47 <shachaf> Except in the UK you have to use inscrutable words like "back" and "lay".
17:41:57 <b_jonas> right. and since games of chance are so severely regulated here, almost everyone who earns a signifiacnt amount do it illegally
17:42:04 <shachaf> Once in a while I figure out what they mean but the next time I want to look at a market I've forgotten again.
17:43:14 <FaeFly> Usually the UK brokers let you bet on whether you think arsons will torch the Gävle straw goat or not
17:43:23 <FaeFly> (speaking of being able to bet on arbitrary events)
17:44:15 <b_jonas> FaeFly: they always do, the bet is only about when
17:44:42 <shachaf> Anyway my point is just that actual markets are useful for the world, whereas casinos are not.
17:44:54 <FaeFly> (nah, there's been years when it hasn't been, but the majority of the time it seems to be)
17:45:17 <shachaf> So if people are going to get the gambling thrill anyway, better for them to lose money on actual markets, to incentivize counterparties to do research or something.
17:45:17 <int-e> shachaf: I thought running a casino is great for making money?
17:45:37 <shachaf> Yes, casinos are useful for the owners and not anyone else.
17:45:59 <shachaf> Markets are useful for everyone.
17:46:10 <b_jonas> you know how Gävle has goats, and Budapest used to have these painted cows at one point? on my vacation, I found that Dortmund had painted _winged_ _rhinoceroses_.
17:46:31 <int-e> shachaf: grocery markets, maybe
17:46:41 <shachaf> Grocery futures! Good idea.
17:47:01 <shachaf> Exotic grocery futures options derivatives.
17:47:06 <int-e> Been done for cocoa...
17:47:18 <shachaf> Oh, another thing that's illegal in the US is onions future.
17:47:32 <shachaf> But that's an explicit exception for onion, most kinds of futures are legal.
17:48:05 <int-e> Well you learned the right lesson from the Tulip crisis.
17:48:17 <int-e> (Those are a kind of onion, right?)
17:48:17 <b_jonas> int-e: nah, they don't really work. the agriculture guys figured out that they don't have to pay for insurance, they just tell the government every year that this year has been the worst weather ever since their life and there's no way they could have been prepared for it and the government has got to pay them subsidy to help them
17:48:28 <b_jonas> you can't compete with that
17:49:31 <shachaf> I'd like onion futures to be legal. Maybe I can write my congresshumans.
17:50:45 <b_jonas> shachaf: is this like those rules that get compiled to stupid law compilations on the internet, like laws about not being allowed to park an elephant close to a school or something?
17:51:10 <shachaf> It's this law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onion_Futures_Act
17:52:17 <shachaf> It was later amended to ban box office receipts futures (bets on how much money a movie will make).
17:52:48 <shachaf> I think the law is just bad. As far as I know onion farmers agree nowadays.
17:53:44 <int-e> shachaf: It's certainly a ridiculous piece of legislation. I'm all for such a ban but limiting it to onions is ridiculous and short-sighted.
17:53:55 <int-e> A ticking time bomb.
17:54:04 <int-e> (No, I'm not a big believer in capitalism. Why do you ask?)
17:54:48 <shachaf> Yes, I know that. That's why I'm taking the contrarian view point, obviously.
17:54:49 <int-e> (More to the point I believe that free markets have optimize the wrong objective function.)
17:55:22 <shachaf> Well, I don't know what right and wrong objective functions you have in mind.
17:55:38 <shachaf> But I also don't know what's better. It's easy to name shortcomings in markets.
17:56:01 <esowiki> [[Photon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66650&oldid=63463 * Sugarfi * (+0)
17:59:05 <b_jonas> shachaf: that looks crazy, and I think it's an example of exactly what I said above, that agriculture people can put on a great innocent small child face with the puppy eyes and tell the congress that they're being unfairly exploited by the evil stock trade people, and then the congress does anything they ask for
17:59:46 <b_jonas> and if they don't, then the agriculture people pour milk and throw watermelons at them, and the politicians get afraid that their beautifully tailored suits will get spoiled, and so they give in
17:59:54 <int-e> I don't have a feasible, stable solution either. (For example, socialism is a great idea, but putting it into practice is really hard... you're likely to end up with corruption everywhere, and quite possibly an unmotivated workforce.)
17:59:56 <shachaf> I mean, they *were* unfairly exploited by futures traders.
18:01:01 <int-e> In practice, timely regulation is probably the best to hope for.
18:01:16 <tswett[m]> The free market is great as long as the market value of every person's labor exceeds the market value of the goods and services necessary for that person's well-being.
18:01:23 <shachaf> int-e: OK, sure, it sounds like we agree on that.
18:01:43 <shachaf> A big point of the whole market thing is that incentives line up well.
18:01:59 <int-e> Regulation is also the key to internalizing external costs, especially from the future.
18:02:02 <shachaf> And you certainly want regulation rather than "free markets" which can easily be pathological.
18:02:17 <shachaf> Right, and you want to internalize externalities.
18:02:50 <int-e> Basically, since we don't know anything better than the free market model that is also stable in the medium and perhaps even long term, we have to resort to tweaking the cost function.
18:04:09 <int-e> Of course it's all embedded in a prisoner's dilemma between countries because for most things we have a global market.
18:06:03 <int-e> (The background problem I'm considering is limiting climate change. It's one of the truly big challenges where in theory, it should be in everybody's interest to work really hard towards a solution, including accepting lowered standards of living for the few for the benefit of the many and future generations. In practice... I don't see any of that happening fast enough to matter.)
18:07:16 <int-e> Cornering markets, as nasty as that is... seems minor in comparison.
18:08:28 <shachaf> Limiting climate change is good but a particular government can add regulation for externalities however market-oriented it is.
18:08:39 <shachaf> And the inter-government issues are no different.
18:14:35 <b_jonas> this channel is weird. SAT solvers in the morning, free market in the evening
18:15:26 <int-e> we've also seen ootsology, meditation, and actual spam
18:15:57 <shachaf> int-e: Anyway, I don't think we disagree on any of the facts, so I think it's odd that you end up thinking futures should be illegal and I don't.
18:17:23 <b_jonas> `8-ball should futures be illegal?
18:17:44 <b_jonas> fungot, what restrictions do you recommend to put on the free market?
18:17:44 <fungot> b_jonas: designing an os -and- playing tabletop.... i'm kinda thinking specifically of http and other stateless protocols... and dynamic ip addresses. but i can't
18:18:44 <int-e> shachaf: If you put it like that I'm not sure about whether they should be illegal. I don't think they are useful, and I dislike some of the consequences (cornering markets is most attractive in the presence of futures, isn't it...)
18:19:39 <shachaf> Hmm, I think futures are useful for reducing uncertainty and transferring risk from people who have it to people who want it.
18:20:15 <int-e> that's the trouble, isn't it
18:20:32 <int-e> hedging risks is great, speculation is bad, and there's no discernable differencw
18:21:21 <shachaf> (Speculation can also be done without futures, of course.)
18:21:24 <int-e> it's bad when combined with bankruptcy
18:21:47 <int-e> Because then you're in an ugly external cost scenario.
18:22:31 <arseniiv> oh at first I thought about futures like promises
18:22:51 <int-e> Yes. I promise to buy ... shares at price ... in the future.
18:22:52 <shachaf> That's arguable, but often it's addressed anyway.
18:22:55 <arseniiv> now I see this is economical stuff I don’t know anything about
18:23:15 <shachaf> I think speculation clearly has a useful function too.
18:23:41 <b_jonas> and that's still greasing the market?
18:23:45 <arseniiv> though I don’t really distingwish promises and futures too, I hadn’t read anything comprehensive to date about them all
18:23:47 <shachaf> If I buy wheat when it's cheap (low demand) and sell it when it's expensive (high demand), I've transferred wheat from people who don't need it to people who do.
18:24:10 <b_jonas> right, greasing the market, even though wheat in particular isn't greasy
18:24:20 <shachaf> I get paid for it because the people who need it are willing to pay because it's so useful to them.
18:24:58 <int-e> shachaf: presumably you've also paid for storage. except... nowadays... that's not so clear at all
18:25:10 <arseniiv> . o O ( my market is all floury on the floor, who did it )
18:25:24 <shachaf> Nowadays you might've paid someone else for storage, sure.
18:26:31 <b_jonas> presumably if the grain travels time then someone payed for its storage somehow
18:27:21 <int-e> or maybe there is no grain
18:28:18 <b_jonas> you mean it got to the future the old style way, by having planted seeds a few months before you need it, and then harvesting at the right time, so it doesn't need to be stored??
18:28:33 <int-e> it's futures -> short-selling -> cornering markets -> disaster. :P
18:29:18 <arseniiv> BTW I watched those slides on GA and I wonder how can it be explained transparently than in PGA, you represent points by (n−1)-vectors, lines by (n−2)-vectors and so on and hyperplanes by 1-vectors, all in reverse to the way they’re represented in usual projective space context
18:29:44 <shachaf> I feel like you're focusing on a few extremely bad failure cases -- which are generally illegal anyway -- and not on the constant benefits everyone gets.
18:30:08 <b_jonas> it's not a _disaster_, it's just another stupid zillion dollars lots of government subsidies, because the agriculture sector knows that puppy eyes are cheaper than taking any risk or behaving like they're part of a world economy where maybe it's not worth for them to grow watermelons at all because shipping them all the way from brazil is cheaper
18:30:21 <int-e> shachaf: because "everyone" is concentrated in the top 1%.
18:30:40 <shachaf> I don't think that's true.
18:31:08 <int-e> I think it's born out by the capital distribution and its changed distribution over time.
18:31:17 <shachaf> Wheat farmers get the benefits of wheat futures, because they can reliably know what prices they'll sell their wheat at before it's grown, so they can plan better.
18:31:52 <arseniiv> (^cont.) (representing them the usual way gives something paranormal but why the reverse works is not automatically clear)
18:32:06 <int-e> but wouldn't they be better off if they had sufficient money floating to hedge those risks themselves...
18:32:09 <shachaf> Sure, I think there are clearly problems causing wealth to be concentrated among a small number of people to a ridiculous degree. But I don't think derivatives are the cause.
18:32:34 <shachaf> I buy insurance rather than hedging tail risks myself.
18:33:13 <shachaf> I think in some cases insurance makes sense and in some cases it's ridiculous, but the concept surely makes sense.
18:33:39 <b_jonas> shachaf: right, that's more than half the point of insurance
18:33:52 <shachaf> (Ridiculous: US health insurance.)
18:33:54 <int-e> So you should cover normal fluctuations using your own capital and tail risks by a proper insurance?
18:34:11 <b_jonas> shachaf: oh yeah, that one is weird
18:34:13 <int-e> I don't see where you need futures in this picture.
18:34:42 <shachaf> You should be able to transfer whatever risks you want to people who want to buy them.
18:36:26 <shachaf> No one is forcing wheat farmers to use futures. If they want to hedge tail risks only they can do that too (and people also trade wheat options, but I imagined you'd have even more of an objection to those).
18:36:35 <b_jonas> well, there's also cases when the government mandates you to buy insurance, most importantly (a) when you're driving motor vehilcles, you must buy insurance to pay to the people you kill by accident, and (b) if you run a travel agency, you must buy insurance to transport the travelers back home
18:38:08 <b_jonas> what look, trigak and serini look just the same according to the wisdome
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20:14:10 <shachaf> I often hear backjumping described as a big improvement, but is it actually that important?
20:14:43 <shachaf> With your learned clause, even if you didn't backjump but only went up one level, the new clause would give you a conflict via unit propagation anyway, right? So you wouldn't end up making any new decisions.
20:40:30 <shachaf> b_jonas: https://twitter.com/ioccc/status/1183476350847336453
20:41:19 <b_jonas> ooh, this will be interesting
20:41:27 <b_jonas> shachaf: ioccc? let me see
20:42:02 <int-e> shachaf: The point of backjumping is that you undo decisions that were made after a point where the newly learned clause could be used for unit propagation.
20:42:41 <int-e> shachaf: It's not an unconditional win, but heuristically you want to do as much unit propagation as possible before making a decision.
20:42:48 <shachaf> b_jonas: It's only a pre-update.
20:44:09 <int-e> shachaf: You can think of it as a partial restart, maybe?
20:44:25 <b_jonas> majority opposition win in Bp
20:45:13 <shachaf> int-e: I mean, clearly backjumping is good, but if you didn't do it, unit propagation alone (and no decisions) would unwind you to the same point. Right?
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20:45:44 <int-e> shachaf: well, sooner or later...
20:46:17 <int-e> shachaf: actually, no, it's incomparable
20:46:35 <b_jonas> shachaf: I know it's not the final results yet, but it won't change significantly at this point
20:46:48 <int-e> shachaf: if ordinary backtracking returns to that point, the negated literal corresponding to that decision will end up on the trail, then the backjump literal.
20:47:41 <int-e> shachaf: I'm pretty sure this is one of those ideas that are completely unclear in theory but work out well in practice.
20:48:04 <int-e> Aka a heuristic ;)
20:49:23 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, that's probably not worth an ioccclist trigger
20:49:27 <HackEso> ioccclist is update notification for when a new year of the International Obfuscated C Code Contest is announced, or the winners for a year is announced, or the source codes of winners are released. http://www.ioccc.org/#news
20:49:39 <int-e> shachaf: oh what do you mean by "unwind"... only backtracking or backjumping really unwinds anything; everything else expands the trail.
20:49:40 <b_jonas> it doesn't even appear on the news page
20:52:01 <j4cbo> hey SDR nerds, can anyone identify this encoding scheme?
20:52:09 <j4cbo> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/o3noKYIX/Screenshot%202019-10-13%2014.51.44.png
20:52:13 <j4cbo> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/G4qGBD9F/Screenshot%202019-10-13%2014.50.47.png
20:52:53 <j4cbo> it's not manchester... the thing i noticed is each high is only ever 1 symbol length but the low intervals are either 1 or 2
20:53:36 <j4cbo> so a transmission is variable length depending on how many 0s or 1s there are?
20:54:00 <b_jonas> j4cbo: that could happen, there's at least one encoding scheme that is variable length like that
20:54:16 <b_jonas> of course there could be a layer over it that changes what comes out as zeroes and ones
20:54:24 <j4cbo> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/qoPjGUGh/Screenshot%202019-10-13%2014.53.51.png
20:54:39 <b_jonas> j4cbo: but isn't it also possible that you have too few samples and sometimes the high can be 2 long too?
20:55:18 <j4cbo> i'm trying to reverse-engineer my cheap-ass wirelessly controlled christmas lights
20:55:53 <j4cbo> i have a remote control dongle with three buttons (toggle power, change pattern, and 'sync' which restarts the current pattern) so... those are the only three samples i'm gonna get :P
20:55:56 <b_jonas> see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1-Wire which is variable length like that
20:56:12 <j4cbo> then it's OOK over 433mhz
20:56:28 <j4cbo> i'm kind of hoping the receive device supports discrete on and off commands
20:56:30 <b_jonas> do you always get the same sample from the same button?
20:57:23 <j4cbo> it just plays over and over again while the button is held down
20:57:45 <b_jonas> send it lots of random nonsense quickly and hope that does something?
20:58:01 <zzo38> Could you implement on/off by the power connection instead if needed?
20:58:43 <j4cbo> totally, but that requires extra hardware :P
20:58:55 <b_jonas> j4cbo: these only have, like, 17 bits of info at most, so try all 2**17 combinations
20:59:12 <b_jonas> some of them will probably be ignored
20:59:48 <j4cbo> yeah, i need to rig up some code to send those words out from my own hardware next
21:00:08 <b_jonas> are these sent by radio or by infrared?
21:02:13 <j4cbo> i have a spare rileylink
21:11:43 <shachaf> int-e: I think I'm confusil about something but I don't want to type it on my phone so I'll try to say more later.
21:12:09 <shachaf> By unwinding I mean regular backtracking, i.e. only subtracting 1 from the level.
21:22:12 <int-e> shachaf: Right. Then I think I've understood correctly... and perhaps answered your question as well.
21:31:34 <b_jonas> strangely, the word "confusil" doesn't appear in quotes or wisdom ... yet
21:31:45 <shachaf> int-e: Whether you backtrack or backjump to a point earlier in the trail, you should have the same state, shouldn't you?
21:32:43 <int-e> shachaf: No, because the backtracking will leave an additional literal on the trail.
21:32:51 <shachaf> I mean the same trail state. Your learned clauses might be different.
21:33:01 <b_jonas> sorry I don't make more constructive conversation, but SAT solvers really isn't a topic I feel interested about
21:33:04 <int-e> shachaf: before unit propragation with the learned clause kicks in.
21:33:40 <shachaf> Wait, backtracking only deletes everything past some point in the trail, doesn't it?
21:34:16 <shachaf> So at the time you unwind to any past level k, you've deleted everything past k in the trail.
21:34:19 <int-e> shachaf: backtracking takes deletes the trail up to the last decision, and places the negated decision literal on the trail
21:34:48 <shachaf> When you say "that point" what do you mean?
21:35:11 <shachaf> I feel like I should just draw a diagram and the confusilation would be resolved in eight seconds.
21:35:30 <int-e> shachaf: "that point" meaning the position of the decision literal that backjumping would replace on the trail.
21:37:04 <shachaf> Say you have a,b!,c,d,e!,f,g!,h,i on the trail, where the !ed literals are decisions and the rest are a result of unit propagation.
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21:37:39 <shachaf> You reach a contradiction and you add a clause, which would let you backjump to replace e. Right?
21:37:40 <int-e> shachaf: if you have 1 2^d 3 4 5^d 6 7, a conflict, with learned clause -1,-7... then backjumping results in 1 -7 as the new trail, whereas if you continue the search until 2^d is removed by backtracking, you'll end up with 1 -2, and then unit propagation will add -7.
21:37:47 <int-e> shachaf: ^d marks decisions.
21:38:20 <shachaf> Now I see what you mean. Thanks.
21:40:48 <shachaf> So one of the important things about CDCL is that the only thing the learned clauses are any use for is unit propagation. Right?
21:41:09 <shachaf> So you want them to be as small as possible if you can manage it, or otherwise as relevant as possible within your assumptions. Or something like that.
21:41:18 <int-e> . o O ( just like any other clauses )
21:41:47 <shachaf> No, the original clauses are useful for specifying your problems.
21:41:58 <shachaf> The new clauses are redundant and only useful if they make unit propagation happen.
21:42:12 <shachaf> I'm just saying something very obvious here.
21:42:26 <int-e> Actually there's a point here.
21:42:50 <int-e> SAT solvers also prune the clause database (they forget clauses), and that's only allowed for clauses that are redundant.
21:43:09 <int-e> Which means that in most cases, they will only forget learned clauses.
21:43:12 <shachaf> Do they even forget original problem clauses?
21:43:49 <int-e> There are simplification procedures (I know nothing about them really except that they exist) which can also identify redundant clauses.
21:43:56 <shachaf> I thought the main reason to forget clauses was to save memory, and otherwise having a bunch of clauses doesn't hurt.
21:44:00 <shachaf> But, sure, simplification makes sense.
21:44:11 <int-e> Or potentially rewrite clauses (add some clauses that make other clauses redundant while maintaining satisfiability)
21:45:23 <shachaf> One of the slightly odd things about CDCL is that you have to use full clauses, rather than the reduced clauses you get after assuming some literals. Right?
21:46:06 <int-e> You mean wrt the current trail?
21:46:10 <shachaf> I mean, if you have the clause (a | b | c), and you assume ¬b, you sometimes think of it as solving the subproblem where you have the clause (a | c).
21:46:28 <shachaf> But your learned clauses have to be globally true so you can't really talk about subproblems like that.
21:46:52 <int-e> If you ever want to go back on that assumption and keep the learned clauses valid... yeah you'll need full clauses.
21:47:01 <int-e> So in particular that's true for everything on the trail.
21:47:47 <shachaf> But I think that's not so bad because even if you learn a big clause, while you're in the same region (sharing most of the trail) it'll still be locally pretty small and so useful for unit propagation.
21:48:34 <shachaf> When your trail looks very different after a while, the big clause might be less useful, and you might be more inclined to forget it.
21:49:14 <int-e> Also learning is completely optional... a SAT solver can just refuse to learn clauses above a certain size.
21:49:36 <shachaf> Right. Without learning a CDCL solver is still correct, which is good.
21:50:12 <shachaf> Maybe you can just use big clauses for backjumping without learning them? Not sure how useful that would be.
21:50:21 <int-e> Actually it's kind of awful too... you have so many degrees of freedom for heuristics...
21:51:18 <int-e> Which literal to decide on, what to learn, what to forget, when to restart...
21:51:44 <shachaf> Restarting seems like a surprising strategy to me. Especially a solver (BerkMin) that restarts every 550 conflicts?!
21:52:00 <shachaf> Do restarting solvers have any guarantee of termination?
21:52:24 <int-e> They are supposed to do some sort of (exponential?) backoff...
21:53:00 <int-e> But this interacts in interesting ways with learning.
21:53:30 <int-e> If you learn all backjump clauses and never forget then even if you restart after every conflict you'll eventually solve the problem.
21:54:01 <shachaf> Oh, because everything slowly becomes forced by UP.
21:54:12 <int-e> (this is degenerate... you'd have a conflict, analyse it to find the backjump clause, learn that clause, but never actually backjump because you're restarting anyway)
21:59:38 <int-e> The other intuitive reason for restarts is that initially the variable selection heuristic has no information at all... with a restart, even early decision levels can benefit from the variable selection heuristic.
22:00:53 <int-e> I suppose this is especially important for satisfiable problems.
22:09:15 <shachaf> Why is unit propagation the only thing used for assigning values to variables, other than decisions?
22:13:53 <int-e> because it's fast?
22:14:57 <int-e> And I guess the attitude is that all other inferences can be learned as clauses.
22:19:39 <int-e> IIRC the original DPLL had a "pure literal" rule... if a literal only occurs positively in the current set of clauses (those that are not already true) then one can assert that literal to be true. Nobody implements this as part of the propagation rules.
22:21:51 <int-e> If you're facing a decision like... "would you rather do X or 1k unit propagations"
22:22:23 <int-e> it's easy to imagine that X probably won't pay off :)
22:49:11 <j4cbo> boo, i need an SDR
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00:41:53 <oerjan> <b_jonas> luckily it's not pizza <-- then it must be bell pepper and aubergine stew, just the way shachaf hates it
00:57:57 <HackEso> foil//Foil is a material that provides protection against evil, such as mind control rays. To protect the world many heroes spend a lot of their time foiling villains.
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04:38:53 <esowiki> [[User:IFcoltransG]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66651 * IFcoltransG * (+369) Created my user page. Check it!
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07:08:15 <shachaf> "The reason why frequent restarts help solve problems faster is that while the solver does forget all current variable assignments, it does keep some information, specifically it keeps learnt clauses, effectively sampling the search space, and it keeps the last assigned truth value of each variable, assigning them the same value the next time they are picked to be assigned"
07:08:27 <shachaf> I didn't consider that last part.
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07:24:35 <jix> shachaf: it also keeps the scores used for the variable selection part of the decision heuristic
07:25:29 <jix> shachaf: so it is likely that it will branch on a similar set of variables after a restart
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08:07:59 <int-e> who exactly is dying in out-of-order execution
08:12:22 <jix> int-e: that's an issue that may take until retirement to figure out
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08:37:56 <Taneb> IOCCC sources have been released
08:41:06 <shachaf> Taneb: There's a list for that.
08:45:23 -!- int-e has set topic: IOCCC source code escaped | Welcome to the international center for esoteric programming language design, development, and deployment! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/.
08:46:25 <Taneb> shachaf: quite possibly
08:47:07 <HackEso> FireFlist* \ aglist* \ bardsworthlist* \ bobadventureslist* \ calesyta2016list* \ danddreclist* \ don'taskdon'ttelllist@ \ dontaskdonttelllist* \ ehlist* \ emptylist* \ erflist* \ flist* \ idealist* \ ioccclist* \ keenlist* \ list* \ listen* \ listlist* \ llist* \ makelist* \ makelistlist* \ minimalist* \ mlist* \ olist* \ pbflist* \ slist* \ smlist* \ stylist* \ testlist* \ xkcdwhatiflist* \ ysaclist*
09:03:33 <FaeFly> ..what's the FireFlist
09:06:55 <int-e> `culprits bin/FireFlist
09:07:10 <int-e> hmm. must be old :)
09:07:13 <shachaf> Why is my solver extremely slow?
09:07:43 <shachaf> I thought it was because I'm being very inefficient, but my friend's solver is also very inefficient and is also written in Python and is only slightly slower.
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09:13:33 <int-e> Ah, Anevka. Things are coming together.
09:14:09 <int-e> shachaf: could you have bad benchmark(s)?
09:14:18 <int-e> as in, one of the solver gets lucky, the other not
09:22:15 <shachaf> It's the same random 3SAT instance.
09:22:52 <int-e> and you've tried several I suppose?
09:23:11 <int-e> but who knows, maybe you are doing something wrong
09:23:18 <shachaf> I think my time is roughly consistent.
09:23:31 <shachaf> I suspect this is just naıve in a way their solver isn't.
09:23:45 <shachaf> I wasn't worried about it because I was going to implement watched literals anyway, but it's a bit odd.
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09:28:20 <wib_jonas> `ioccclist https://www.ioccc.org/years.html#2019 The source code for the winners of the 26th IOCCC has been released.
09:28:21 <HackEso> ioccclist https://www.ioccc.org/years.html#2019 The source code for the winners of the 26th IOCCC has been released. : b_jonas rain2 rain1
09:28:36 <shachaf> Hmm, it might've just been luck for this instance.
09:28:46 <shachaf> If I assume false instead of true, the time goes way down.
09:29:48 <wib_jonas> "<jix> int-e: that's an issue that may take until retirement to figure out" => beautiful ambiguous statement, playing on how "retirement" has both a technical meaning in this context and an everyday meaning
09:30:48 <wib_jonas> oerjan: you can make bell pepper stew in an oven?
09:31:34 <wib_jonas> oerjan: oh right, it's just "foil"
09:31:43 <wib_jonas> oerjan: as for "hungry", the relevant wisdom is
09:31:46 <HackEso> Ostrich used to be a large middle European empire in frequent conflict with Turkey. After a famine it sort of split into Ostrich/Hungry. Alas its policy of keeping its head in the sand did not get it through the Great War, and with its final attempts to take flight failing, it ended up cut into several pieces.
09:32:50 <wib_jonas> this was apparently written by you
09:33:55 <jix> wib_jonas: as does "issue" :)
09:36:03 <wib_jonas> let me thing where else on the internet should I ping with this news
09:37:59 <int-e> jix: ah, didn't see those... now I feel bad :P
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09:47:41 <shachaf> OK, I think it was just my variable-picking strategy being very bad.
09:49:25 <int-e> plausible... out of curiosity, did you test a satisfiable or an unsatisfiable problem?
09:49:40 <shachaf> Both, but mostly a satisfiable one.
09:51:39 <int-e> I'd probably use mostly unsatisfiable instances for comparison between solvers... or many satisfiable instances. Luck is too much of a factor for satisfiable instances.
09:52:48 <int-e> people also randomize inputs... shuffling literals and clauses.
09:53:52 <wib_jonas> int-e: and randomly negating them, like in bfjoust
09:55:22 <int-e> bfjoust is not random though, is it
09:55:49 <jix> even for unsat instances variance is crazy, which makes good benchmarking take a long time and cost a lot :(
09:57:14 <wib_jonas> int-e: the random space is so small that we try all possibilities, so we don't do a real random sample, but the idea is the same
09:57:40 <wib_jonas> some instances work better when you negate the direction, so we try both negated and non-negated
10:19:47 <Lykaina> 40 min till quiet time in my apartment building is lifted
10:22:12 <Lykaina> i'll take meds then and go back to sleep
10:26:20 <int-e> the mace is in the house
10:27:25 <int-e> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzPf4RRG1Rc ;-)
10:27:55 <int-e> "LIVE State Opening of Parliament: 14 October 2019"
10:35:37 <Lykaina> i wonder if the uk is pissed that they voted for brexit
10:36:21 <int-e> they're still divided on that according to polls
10:37:19 <wib_jonas> Lykaina is probably on the east coast of North America then
10:38:31 <int-e> queen arrived, house of commons summoned... this will take a while :)
10:39:34 <Lykaina> if they do a no-deal brexit, i will be disappointed
10:39:55 <int-e> At this point I won't. But it's unlikely to happen just now.
10:40:42 <int-e> I'm kind of expecting another extension and a general election in the UK. But I don't really know; I think nobody does.
10:41:03 <Lykaina> i hope they stay in the eurozone
10:41:36 <int-e> That seems unlikely.
10:41:52 <wib_jonas> right, they need to sacrifice a prime minister as a scapegoat a few times per year, and a general election is the easiest way to choose the next person to be sacrificed
10:42:06 <int-e> Oh Johnson's speech has begun. (Read by the Queen, of course.)
10:42:44 <wib_jonas> int-e: huh, why would the Queen read the PM's speech?
10:42:58 <int-e> wib_jonas: Because that's how this "Queen's speech" works.
10:43:59 <wib_jonas> also, we've got the near final results for the local govt elections. opposition win in Budapest is now confirmed, in fact they got one more place than they seemed to have when I checked in the evening.
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10:44:49 <int-e> wib_jonas: Well it is the UK. :P
10:45:58 <int-e> Lykaina: did you know that Corbyn is pro Brexit?
10:46:22 <int-e> The leader of the Labour party.
10:46:44 <int-e> The party line is different, interestingly enough.
10:47:58 <int-e> Nah, they are opposing parties.
10:48:02 <Taneb> Lykaina: tories = conservative party, who are in government and led by Boris Johnson
10:52:32 <Lykaina> which country is led by boris badnoff? i forgot
10:52:40 <int-e> and the queen has left
10:53:28 <int-e> I'm not sure what happens next... apparently the house of commons members return there...
10:54:07 <Taneb> There's a debate on whether the Commons accept the Queen's Speech
10:54:25 <int-e> Nice. Should be fun.
10:54:59 <Lykaina> what did the queen argue for/against?
10:55:37 <int-e> brexit, law and order, environmental protection (interestingly enough), leadership (of the UK in the world) after brexit
10:55:43 <int-e> I don't remember all of it.
10:56:29 <int-e> I'm sure we can read the whole thing online in a couple of hours.
10:58:36 <int-e> (law and order... there was a bit about giving the polic force the means of defending themselves, and something about giving them the power to arrest people with warrants by "trusted partners".
10:59:48 <int-e> Anyway. I've never seen this ceremony; now I have. Yay me :)
11:01:13 <Taneb> If she were here she's probably be the oldest person in the channel
11:03:00 <int-e> Lykaina: Anyway, the polls that I recall said that a small majority would be in favour of staying in the EU now. However, not all of those people want to abandon the Brexit process...
11:04:37 <int-e> Lykaina: The first question is entirely hypothetical... if the Brexit process had not been started, and there was a referendum on that today just like there was (uhm, 3?) years ago, how would they vote.
11:05:47 <int-e> The second question is about actually going back and stopping the Brexit process that has been started and ongoing for all the time since.
11:06:09 <int-e> I imagine a lot of people now want it to be over with, not really caring about the result.
11:08:04 <int-e> (for my standards)
11:08:23 <Taneb> Actually... I'm mixed up, it was in the summer, wasn't it?
11:08:32 <Taneb> And then article 50 was invoked the following Spring
11:08:58 <int-e> Let's meet in the middle!
11:14:58 <wib_jonas> The queen ended the speech, now she's leaving.
11:15:31 <wib_jonas> I don't understand how this works.
11:18:01 <Taneb> wib_jonas: I think your coverage may be behind?
11:18:57 <wib_jonas> "<Taneb> If she were here she's probably be the oldest person in the channel" lol
11:19:04 <HackEso> people who taneb isn't? ¯\(°_o)/¯
11:19:08 <HackEso> people who taneb aren't? ¯\(°_o)/¯
11:19:12 <Taneb> `? people who taneb is not
11:19:13 <HackEso> elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond, Queen Elizabeth the first. Pending approval: Shigeru Miyamoto.
11:20:09 <wib_jonas> Taneb: this youtube thingy says it's "live", but then, I've see so many things in television where they still have the "live" caption when it's replayed, so I don't really trust it
11:20:24 <wib_jonas> either they should add "not live" as a caption, or add a timestamp next to "live"
11:20:28 <int-e> wib_jonas: The live stream has ended 20ish minutes ago
11:25:59 <Taneb> Fun Taneb fact: I have what is to my knowlege the largest collection of autographed Haskell textbooks
11:27:45 <wib_jonas> Taneb: how many of those did you autograph yourself?
11:28:32 <Taneb> wib_jonas: zero, they are both autographed by the respective author
11:29:00 <Taneb> (one by Graham Hutton and one by Simon Marlow)
11:29:43 <Taneb> Programming in Haskell (second edition) and Paralle and Concurrent Program ming in Haskell
11:29:56 <int-e> Btw, LYAHFAGG would earn you negative points.
11:30:40 <int-e> Funny, there are more Haskell textbooks than I thought.
11:31:44 <wib_jonas> `slashlearn people who taneb is not//Taneb is not elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond, Queen Elizabeth the first, or anyone older than Queen Elizabeth the Second. Pending approval: Shigeru Miyamoto.
11:31:46 <HackEso> Relearned 'people who taneb is not': Taneb is not elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond, Queen Elizabeth the first, or anyone older than Queen Elizabeth the Second. Pending approval: Shigeru Miyamoto.
12:18:53 <esowiki> [[Deadfish~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66652&oldid=66648 * A * (+124) /* Implementation */
12:19:54 <arseniiv> <int-e> Btw, LYAHFAGG would earn you negative points. => hm but it’s where I learned about zippers first
12:21:35 <int-e> arseniiv: if you ever start a collection of haskell textbooks, this is the one you hide in the attic.
12:21:59 <int-e> that's all I was saying ;)
12:22:38 <int-e> and obviously I'm compleeeetly objective about this.
12:23:02 <int-e> Not tainted by personal opiona at all.
12:32:10 <wib_jonas> int-e: what does the second A stand for in "LYAHFAGG"?
12:32:27 <arseniiv> my one concern is that its density is pretty low
12:33:51 <int-e> wib_jonas: I thought there was an "a" there. I didn't check.
12:37:26 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: yeah, that means you can't even effectively use it as a doorstopper
12:38:07 <int-e> wib_jonas: Yes, I've marvelled at "opiona" as well... :)
12:38:19 <int-e> A stroke of genius. Or maybe just a stroke. Who knows.
12:39:00 <wib_jonas> fungot, do you have an opiona on the opiuma crisis?
12:39:00 <fungot> wib_jonas: as soon as i get the feeling i'm saying the point of
12:40:19 <int-e> fungot: you should become a politician
12:40:19 <fungot> int-e: and besides, some people don't
12:40:26 <fungot> int-e: on the other hand i you *do* have install priviledges then it's much too dark as well :) just trying that now. well, maybe
12:45:04 <wib_jonas> doorstoper reminds me of this old strip https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2006-12-14
12:46:53 <arseniiv> <int-e> A stroke of genius. Or maybe just a stroke. Who knows. => please don’t give genii strokes, it’s bad for their healths
12:48:46 <arseniiv> wib_jonas: rofol => I meant the first doorstopper message but I’ve seen that strip too
12:49:39 <arseniiv> I won’t say “rofol” on a cruel humor, it would be too much even if it has some fun :)
12:56:06 <esowiki> [[Deadfish~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66653&oldid=66652 * A * (+15) /* Implementation */
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14:53:19 <rain1> exciting about IOCCC!
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16:43:27 <esowiki> [[User:AnimaLibera]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66654&oldid=66539 * AnimaLibera * (+36)
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17:04:11 <lambdabot> ESSB 141650Z 35004KT 320V030 9999 FEW022 08/07 Q1014
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20:44:05 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Refp * New user account
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20:50:57 <arseniiv> I am prone to crash into nostalgia and it’s bad and unconstructive
20:53:02 <arseniiv> now I hopelessly tried to find a photo of a place which isn’t the same anymore as it was rebuilt several years ago. And I don’t know if it persisted and from which mobile phone it was shoot at all, maybe from the one which isn’t turning on anymore
20:53:58 <imode> "if the data exists, the thing exists" is a fallacy I run into.
20:54:23 <arseniiv> though I flagged several photos as broken in filenames and added some code to my program for filling in creation date of a file when it’s newer than its modification date (yep that happens)
20:54:23 <imode> it's why I take photos of everything and stow them away like a squirrel. it isn't healthy and it's not constructive.
20:55:30 <arseniiv> and not that even that place was significant to me to be in, it just had a funny design of its name
20:56:47 <arseniiv> this was a cafe inside a big place, the place got rebuild and I won’t walk in its old layout anymore, and it’s a bit sad, and in that cafe I don’t remember to be in
20:57:47 <arseniiv> also I was stupid to clean some DVDs with a version of the not-so-yearly backup
20:59:14 <arseniiv> and there were some DVD-Rs which persisted only because I couldn’t clear them. And later they proved to be useful, even
20:59:39 <arseniiv> despite being made in approx. 2008
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21:32:39 <b_jonas> imode: taking photos of everything and filing them away is a good thing. it is constructive.
21:33:30 <int-e> until you imagine the growing pile of picture creeping up on you and burying you under an avalanche of impressions to sort through.
21:33:53 <HackEso> Alice doesn't want to go among mad people.
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22:51:28 <b_jonas> int-e: I haven't been taking enough pictures, and I spent way too little time sorting through them and publishing the ones that I should publish, and I feel some amount of shame about that. but a growing pile creeping? nah, that'll never happen
22:51:48 <b_jonas> admittedly I am somewhat conservative with how many pictures I take
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23:23:27 <arseniiv> int-e: we should just wait for arriving of a good AI photo sorter, no worries about piles, why
23:26:51 <arseniiv> “these twenty photos are almost the same, these eight are all blurry, these three differ in these details, these eleven I don’t advise to look for too closely due to too many arthropodes depicted”
23:27:12 <arseniiv> the first comma should be a colon instead
23:28:36 <arseniiv> and then you look at all twenty two of them anyway as you think there could have been false negatives and interesting artistic possibilities
23:30:10 <arseniiv> there are two extra ones due to a flaw in AI so that when it inspects images, it sometimes adds their weighted averages to the mix
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00:06:52 <shachaf> kmc: are you into sat solvers yet
00:12:01 <kmc> not really
00:12:09 <kmc> i've been into them for brief periods in the past
00:12:18 <kmc> i wanted to use sat solvers to run Game of Life backwards
00:12:21 <kmc> but couldn't get it working
00:15:12 <shachaf> I was reading Knuth's fancy thing that does that.
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00:48:25 <shachaf> It's in TAOCP volume 4 fascicle 6.
00:49:11 <shachaf> Also there's a program at http://bach.istc.kobe-u.ac.jp/lect/taocp-sat/knuth/pdf/sat-life.pdf ?
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05:04:32 <shachaf> Under what conditions does a programming language have quines?
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05:27:35 <shachaf> I wanted to figure out whether the existence of quines was a direct consequence of Lawvere's fixed point theorem.
05:27:49 <shachaf> It's surely related, but the construction is usually somewhat different.
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07:31:53 <cpressey> shachaf: I'm pretty sure any Turing-complete language whose programs can be enumerated has a quine, by the s-n-m theorem.
07:32:11 <cpressey> s-m-n theorem. whetevr. it's early.
07:33:51 <cpressey> I guess "running a program" in the language has to considered to be able to produce an integer, or whatever the programs are enumerated with.
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07:43:16 <int-e> @teill arseniiv "we should just wait for arriving of a good AI photo sorter" <-- I'm waiting for the AI that will create the photos that I should have taken
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07:50:31 <cpressey> On the subject of quines, I was reading about Richard's paradox last night, and if I'm not mistaken, a Richardian number is basically the same as a https://esolangs.org/wiki/Narcissist
07:51:03 <shachaf> cpressey: I think maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleene%27s_recursion_theorem has an answer to my question.
07:55:53 <shachaf> cpressey: Hmm, what's interesting about this paradox as opposed to all the other well-known paradoxes that seem identical to it?
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07:59:44 <cpressey> I found it when trying to research why lambda calculus and combinatory logic are not used as deductive systems, even though they were invented as deductive systems. The Kleene-Rosser paradox that shows that ^c is inconsistent, is apparently more or less a version of Richard's paradox.
07:59:44 <int-e> cpressey: Oh I didn't know of that paradox. Of course on a formal level it'll be resolved by Tarski's theorem
08:00:14 <shachaf> I also don't particularly see narcissists as very interestingly different from quines, though it's possible I'm missing something there.
08:01:20 <int-e> (Tarski's theorem = undefinablility of truth. The sentence whose truth is of interest here is "F defines a unique real number")
08:01:21 <shachaf> I'd have to imagine that every Turing-complete language admits a quine. How could it not?
08:01:46 <shachaf> (Unless you're playing games with encoding, which don't seem that interesting to me.)
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08:02:33 <int-e> TC-ness doesn't require any output capability (beyond one bit).
08:03:13 <shachaf> Yes, that's true. One semibit.
08:03:36 <int-e> I mean a mathematical truth value.
08:03:49 <shachaf> But I guess I don't care about that too much. I'm looking for interesting ways in which languages can fail to have quines.
08:04:09 <int-e> Not a weird three-state bit.
08:04:30 <shachaf> Which truth value are you talking about in particular? Halts/doesn't halt?
08:05:21 <int-e> accept/doesn't accept
08:05:53 <int-e> We have some wild cases that never halt.
08:06:09 <shachaf> Oh, here's a different question.
08:06:16 <shachaf> Hmm, I'm actually not sure how to phrase this question.
08:06:57 <shachaf> Lawvere's theorem is along the lines of, say you a function : A -> (A -> B) which is surjective. Then every function : B -> B must have a fixed point.
08:07:13 <shachaf> (For appropriate values of "function" and "surjective" and "(A -> B)".)
08:07:27 <esowiki> [[Wagon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66655&oldid=65529 * Chris Pressey * (+332) Expand lead a little bit
08:07:50 <int-e> shachaf: any TC formalism will allow the kind of circularity that Kleene's fixed point theorem embodies. I.E. a program can contain a full description of itself, suitable for simulation or other analysis.
08:08:03 <shachaf> int-e: Yes, that's what I was getting at.
08:08:23 <int-e> And I agree that it's really hard to capture this more rigorously.
08:08:36 <shachaf> That seems more interesting than insisting on quines which gets into a bunch of nonsense.
08:08:48 <shachaf> I guess that question was about sub-TC systems.
08:09:15 <int-e> For the most part, Quines are just cute programming puzzles of no real importance.
08:09:20 <shachaf> Clearly some of those can still create quines (and use the same techniques that you'd normally use, not something one-off).
08:09:41 <cpressey> Also on the subject of quines: https://github.com/dpiponi/infinite-quine
08:09:44 <shachaf> Yes, I'm certainly not concerned with the quine itself.
08:10:42 <int-e> We have a notion of I/O-completeness on the wiki. An O-complete TC language has quines.
08:10:42 <shachaf> Anyway, on Lawvere's theorem.
08:11:15 <shachaf> What should I call A and B? I'm tempted to call A "Name", where A names an element of A -> B
08:11:37 <shachaf> (And with that element in turn an A names a B.)
08:11:48 <shachaf> Surjectivity means that everything has a name.
08:12:11 <shachaf> One concrete example is A as any set, and B as 2, which gives you Cantor's theorem.
08:12:51 <shachaf> If you can map elements of A to subsets of A such that every subset can be named by an element, then ¬ : 2 -> 2 has a fixed point.
08:14:20 <shachaf> Why is (A -> B) the right codomain here in general?
08:15:55 <shachaf> That's clearly not the question I want to be asking.
08:18:03 <shachaf> Maybe instead of B=2 I should take an example with an arbitrary B.
08:18:24 <shachaf> The Y combinator gives you fixed points for any function : B -> B this way.
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08:24:50 <shachaf> OK, I guess you can say that eval : A -> (A -> B) is a two-argument function doing the same sort of thing Q(x, y) is?
08:26:14 <shachaf> How would you phrase "eval : A -> (A -> B) is surjective" on an uncurried function eval : A×A -> B?
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08:52:22 <cpressey> Is SK-calculus known to be confluent? I mean it *must* be, right? I've just never seen anyone say anything about it one way or the other.
08:53:38 <cpressey> You can probably show it just by showing that the translation to lambda calculus preserves confluence.
08:53:38 <shachaf> Do you mean something other than the confluence you get if you expand every S and K to lambdas?
08:58:48 <Taneb> Confluence as a rewriting system?
08:59:23 <shachaf> Hmm, I guess that makes more sense.
08:59:59 <shachaf> Speaking of SK, I still don't understand why BCKW is a good system.
09:00:14 <shachaf> I already like it but I'd like to like it for a good reason.
09:00:37 <Taneb> shachaf: I found it easier to understand the translation between lambda calculus and BCKW than lambda calculus and SK
09:01:12 <shachaf> What I'd like is a connection to reordering, weakening, and contraction.
09:01:50 <shachaf> What's the lambda calculus translation?
09:02:25 <int-e> cpressey: SK and SKI are confluent
09:02:45 <Taneb> I can't remember, this was about 8 years ago I did this
09:02:52 <Taneb> Near when I was first in here
09:03:22 <shachaf> you're still in the top ten in here hth
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09:03:47 <int-e> cpressey: They are orthogonal first-order term rewriting systems. This is usually shown by introducing a parallel reduction relation and something called a "parallel moves lemma" that shows that that relation has the diamond property (ensuring confluence); the terminology is similar to that used for the lambda calculus but the proofs are actually quite a bit simpler.
09:04:13 <int-e> cpressey: I forgot, did you mention having looked at Baader/Nipkow's book on term rewriting?
09:04:53 <int-e> (because that stuff is all covered in that book)
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09:05:20 <int-e> Except maybe the concrete case of combinatory logic
09:07:23 <int-e> Btw, orthogonal = left-linear (no duplicate variables in left-hand sides of rules) + absence of critical pairs (which you might know from Knuth/Bendix completion or the corresponding confluence criterion for terminating systems).
09:08:29 <int-e> Taneb: do you also approach these systems from a point of view of abstraction elimination?
09:08:52 <int-e> (BCKW(I) and SK(I))
09:09:15 <int-e> Actually, hrm. I want SBCKI, I don't like W at all.
09:10:03 <shachaf> W is supposed to replace S presumably, as the only combinator that does duplication.
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09:10:12 <int-e> myname: you missed the oppertunity there: BSICK (be sick)
09:10:34 <int-e> shachaf: because it has no immediate use for abstraction elimination
09:11:08 <int-e> \x. M[x] N[x] -> S (\x.M[x]) (\x.N[x])
09:11:43 <int-e> but with BCKW you artificially (to my mind) deduplicate the x first, ... -> W (\x1 x2. M[x1] N[x2]) x.
09:12:37 <shachaf> Well, you might be interested in talking about substructural logic.
09:12:59 <shachaf> So I could be interested in what you get with BCK without W, for instance.
09:13:14 <int-e> Sure, but I also get that from SBCKI by dropping the S.
09:14:09 <int-e> I don't like the flavour of duplication offered by W; I prefer the flavor offered by S.
09:14:15 <int-e> That's it in a nutshell.
09:14:16 <shachaf> The S is serving multiple purposes, I guess.
09:14:39 <shachaf> I like S but I'm curious whether a simpler basis will let you pick out parts you like better.
09:15:02 <shachaf> Hmm, is there a standard combinatory basis for some kind of linear lambda calculus?
09:15:03 <int-e> But I'm definitely not approaching this from a logical perspective. My first encounter of combinatory logic was as a model of computation.
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09:15:41 <int-e> shachaf: Sure, BCI is the standard basis for that, add K if you allow deletion.
09:15:57 <wib_jonas> "<shachaf> I'd have to imagine that every Turing-complete language admits a quine. How could it not?" => only if they can do universal IO
09:16:08 <int-e> I do like B and C precisely because they capture linearity.
09:16:19 <int-e> Something that SK hides.
09:16:19 <shachaf> wib_jonas: Yes, see the discussion below.
09:16:32 <shachaf> How do you turn a lambda term into BCKW?
09:16:52 <wib_jonas> BCKW => we just had a discussion about that
09:17:08 <wib_jonas> http://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/people/samson.abramsky/pcpt.pdf
09:17:33 <int-e> you have \x. M[x] N -> X (\x.M[x]) N, \x. M N[x] -> Y M (\x.N[x]), where X,Y \in {B,C}.
09:17:39 <int-e> I can never remember which is which.
09:17:55 <shachaf> OK, that PDF indeed makes the connection I wanted.
09:18:21 <Taneb> int-e: I don't quite know what you mean by abstraction elimination (my brain isn't fully awake yet)
09:18:25 <int-e> (So these look like specializations of \x. M[x] N[x] -> S (\x.M[x]) (\x.N[x]) when x does not occur freely in N or M)
09:18:33 <Taneb> SBCKI would be better, I think
09:18:44 <wib_jonas> in particular, there are no non-empty quines in geo because it can only output decimal integers (followed by a newline), but the source has to have "print" in it to output anything
09:19:07 <int-e> Taneb: the process of starting from a lambda term (which has lambda-abstractions) and turning it into an equivalent (in some sense) abstraction-free term using your combinator basis
09:19:22 <wib_jonas> but this probably isn't an interesting reason
09:19:32 <shachaf> wib_jonas: OK, but I already said that that's an encoding detail that I don't find interesting.
09:20:21 <Taneb> int-e: yeah, I think that's what I do
09:20:50 <wib_jonas> "<int-e> For the most part, Quines are just cute programming puzzles of no real importance." => Smullyan and Hofstadter would disagree
09:22:08 <int-e> wib_jonas: "quine" is just a surface phenomenon (a program that prints its own source code)... you need much more to make it computationally interesting
09:22:59 <wib_jonas> int-e: right, that's why Golf SE tried to qualify interesting quines with a rule, so that non-cheating quines are ones that are useful for building self-referential programs
09:23:05 <cpressey> int-e: Right, yes. I've read Baader and Nipkow, also some other texts on term rewriting. Didn't remember about orthogonality of term rewrite systems. Didn't really occur to me at the time to look at SK-calculus as a rewrite system. And I guess lots of other ppl don't usually look at it that way either.
09:23:30 <wib_jonas> and, in particular, empty quines, or quines that are just a numeral in languages that echo a numeral, are considered cheating for them
09:25:01 <int-e> ``` dc <<<6581840dnP
09:25:40 <shachaf> Oh, I like this connection to polynomial time.
09:25:55 <shachaf> I don't really know good ways of talking about computational complexity for lambda calculus at all.
09:26:10 <int-e> That's a quine, but hardly interesting from a logical perspective... there's no real quoting (quining) going on here.
09:26:55 <int-e> cpressey: That's fair. Happy to help with connecting dots :)
09:27:04 <shachaf> I imagine lambda calculus is just bad at talking about things like time and space constraints.
09:27:18 <wib_jonas> int-e, KBCSI => yeah, that could work
09:27:29 <shachaf> Since reduction is so unrealistic.
09:28:18 <wib_jonas> but my problem is sort of that all of these get weird if you try to abstraction-eliminate multiple variables
09:28:50 <wib_jonas> so could I instead advocate Amicus, which deals with functions of multiple variables naturally?
09:30:37 <shachaf> «It was always hard for many to comprehend how Cantor’s mathematical theorem could be re-christened as a ”paradox“ by Russell and how Gödel’s theorem could be so often declared to be the most significant result of the 20th century. There was always the suspicion among scientists that such extra-mathematical publicity movements concealed an agenda for re-establishing belief as a substitute for s
09:30:43 <shachaf> cience. Now, one hundred years after ...
09:30:46 <shachaf> ... Gödel’s birth, the organized attempts to harness his great mathematical work to such an agenda have become explicit.»
09:31:45 <int-e> wib_jonas: The other thing that makes writing quine more of a puzzle is that ultimately the quining process is very automatic (one cute trick: take a description of a program P(x) that takes a description of a program Q and produces Q([Q]) by whatever notation) but you have a lot of leeway in choosing the encoding for Q, so that's what the focus tends to be on.
09:33:20 <int-e> In the end 6581840dnP doesn't depart from the core idea at all... but the encoding is chosen such that both priting [Q] and printing Q is done by a single dc instruction.
09:34:58 <wib_jonas> int-e: no no, the argument Q is printed by [n] instruction, the program Q is pritned by the [P] instruction
09:35:17 <int-e> wib_jonas: You may have mis-parsed what I wrote.
09:36:10 <int-e> wib_jonas: I KNOW HOW IT WORKS DAMNIT
09:36:20 <wib_jonas> yeah, sorry, but I wasn't sure how it worked
09:36:34 <wib_jonas> because I don't write dc stuff and the instructions are weird
09:37:57 <int-e> (I came up with that quine myself some years ago. But it's obvious enough that I would be surprised if I was the first.)
09:39:28 <wib_jonas> yeah. the perl quine that starts with print<< x2,$/ is also like that, multiple people come up with it independently by simply trying to write a very short quine
09:39:53 <wib_jonas> whereas some of the other perl quines that I wrote are much less canonical
09:40:47 <int-e> > text$ap(++)show"text$ap(++)show"
09:40:56 <wib_jonas> https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=835076 these for example
09:41:48 <wib_jonas> `perl -eprint+("`perl -eprint+(","\"",",","\\",")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]
09:41:49 <HackEso> `perl -eprint+("`perl -eprint+(","\"",",","\\",")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]
09:42:01 <wib_jonas> where the order of the strings in the list is totally arbitrary
09:42:22 <wib_jonas> `perl -eprint+("\\","\"",",","`perl -eprint+(",")[3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,4]")[3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,4]
09:42:22 <shachaf> So does this pattern fit into the Lawvere theorem form?
09:42:23 <HackEso> `perl -eprint+("\\","\"",",","`perl -eprint+(",")[3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,4]")[3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,4]
09:46:37 <wib_jonas> ais523: here's a perl quine by mtve that has only ascii punctuation and spaces. I don't know how it works, but perhaps it also helps with your string eval question: https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=836752
10:01:55 <int-e> woah, really... 'In late 2011, Intel [35]introduced a performance enhancement to its line of server processors that allowed network cards and other peripherals to connect directly to a CPU's last-level cache'
10:02:24 <int-e> [35] is https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/io/data-direct-i-o-technology.html
10:03:41 <int-e> context is https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2019/09/another_side_ch.html (I'm reading the october CRYPTO-GRAM)
10:03:55 <wib_jonas> int-e: yeah, that's what spawned all the rumors about NSA backdoors
10:04:40 <int-e> I'm a bit surprised I missed this.
10:05:18 <int-e> I didn't miss the ME stuff (which is a backdoor by design, if you look at it cynically enough)
10:05:27 <wib_jonas> well, it's one of the things that spawned the rumors at least
10:05:39 <int-e> (I mean ME = management engine)
10:06:18 <int-e> I think IME is the official abbreviation.
10:06:23 <wib_jonas> int-e: how about the enclave thing, that lets you create encrypted parts of the memory that can run code but where the rest of the programs that the cpu runs can't read that code and its state?
10:07:07 <int-e> I didn't miss that either... I see it as related really.
10:07:38 <int-e> (It's also a bit of the extension of the decades old system manangement mode.)
10:08:26 <shachaf> OK, when you have f.g = id, what should you call f and g?
10:08:37 <shachaf> "left inverse" and "right inverse" is too confusing, I think.
10:08:44 <int-e> I mean, SMM is almost as invasive, also based on hiding a region of memory, just not /designed/ to be secure.
10:09:03 <wib_jonas> you should consider the other side though. rather than keeping all the technology that they use for the backdoors a secret that nobody will find unless they spend a man-decade of studying electron-microscope scans, they benevolently document all the backdoor capabilities of the cpu so that you can write high performance backdoors too
10:09:04 <int-e> shachaf: left inverse of g; right inverse of f.
10:09:14 <shachaf> I've been going with "retraction" and "section" but I'm suspecting that's not so great either.
10:09:15 <wib_jonas> it's not exclusive to the NSA, you can backdoor the bios too
10:09:33 <shachaf> int-e: The problem is that if you say "f is a right inverse", I have to write down the thing to see what's going on.
10:10:58 <shachaf> Maybe the intuition I want is "object" and "name": Every object has at least one name, and you can pick out a canonical name (at least if you have choice).
10:11:29 <wib_jonas> why would every object have at least one name? no way
10:11:36 <int-e> wib_jonas: It's not even necessary to involve the NSA as a driver here... SMM was introduced to simulate legacy hardware capabilities. Secure enclaves can be perfectly explained by the desire to enforce copyright. Data direct I/O addresses a genuine (if very high-end) performance problem.
10:11:43 <wib_jonas> especially not when the names come from a countable set and the objects come from a bigger one
10:11:49 <shachaf> Well, it does in this case, because you have a surjection.
10:12:27 <shachaf> What's a better terminology where I can easily remember which set is the bigger one and which function goes in which direction?
10:12:32 <int-e> wib_jonas: I mean I would be surprised if the NSA were not involved in this at all... they are too big. But I don't think they have to do anything beyond subtle nudging here.
10:12:38 <int-e> wib_jonas: System Management Mode
10:13:07 <int-e> wib_jonas: Not sure when that was introduced, i386 or i486 maybe? Around that time I think.
10:13:08 <wib_jonas> int-e: I don't mean that it has to be the NSA specifically, that's just the name that people use in rumors
10:13:52 <wib_jonas> int-e: but in reality it's usually the big secret agencies of all other countries that puts the backdoors there, rather than the secret agency of your country
10:14:15 <wib_jonas> int-e: system management mode, how does that differ from ME?
10:14:16 <int-e> SMM can be used for things like simulating the AT keyboard interface (port 60h/61h) for USB hardware.
10:14:36 <int-e> wib_jonas: It runs on the same processor.
10:15:04 <int-e> It's just that certain I/O operations can trigger a software emulation layer. Nothing really deep.
10:15:32 <int-e> 'It was first released with the Intel 386SL.'
10:17:01 <wib_jonas> int-e: ah, so five years after the 386
10:17:07 <esowiki> [[Wagon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66656&oldid=66655 * Chris Pressey * (+599) More describing language overview
10:17:14 <int-e> The ME is a full (but less powerful) separate core... that's a fairly recent thing.
10:18:39 <int-e> But even there its existence can be explained in a perfectly innocent way.
10:20:21 <int-e> Initializing a processor (memory subsystem (training DRAM, probably other I/O lines as well)) has become so complex that it's better to do it in software than in pure hardware. As a bonus, you get the ability to work around some hardware bugs in software. Now if you're Intel, which hardware platform are you likely to use for this?
10:21:12 <jix> intel did use a 3rd party architecture (ARC) for the ME for a long time until they switched to a x86 core AFAIK
10:21:20 <int-e> So now you have a separate processor on your die... and it's dormant for most of the system's operation. That's stupid maybe you can find a use for it? ... and suddenly you end up with an ME-like device.
10:22:21 <jix> (which I found quite funny, given the origin of ARC as the superfx chip used in starfox on the super nintendo)
10:22:23 <int-e> (Of course the architecture is secondary. If it's a universal machine... it can be used for arbitrary purposes.)
10:22:57 <wib_jonas> "Now if you're Intel, which hardware platform are you likely to use for this?" => I'm not familiar with the licensing situation of cpus really
10:23:44 <int-e> Intel tried to make a GPU out of X86.
10:24:39 <int-e> Or are trying to make... according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larrabee_(microarchitecture) they've revived that project.
10:25:29 <shachaf> Intel is back at it with Larrabee?
10:25:35 <jix> The only reason I can think of why they didn't went with x86 in the first place is that an ARC core is smaller than what intel had at that time
10:26:23 <int-e> (The timing makes sense actually... now that we want to do raytracing with (I suspect) hardly predictable memory access patterns, the SIMT model will run into severe problems.)
10:26:51 <shachaf> int-e: That page is very ambiguous about it.
10:26:52 <int-e> wib_jonas: The ones with the 0x8086 vendor id.
10:27:06 <shachaf> Or rather it's not ambiguous enough. Is there any definite connection to Larrabee?
10:31:11 <int-e> I don't find any tangible evidence of that connection either.
10:31:18 <int-e> Still, it's Intel ;-)
10:33:32 <int-e> And anyway, it definitely *tried*, which was my main point.
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11:08:00 <cpressey> <int-e> But I'm definitely not approaching this from a logical perspective. My first encounter of combinatory logic was as a model of computation. <-- That would seem to be the dominant paradigm for it these days. But I'm interested in the logical perspective of it atm. I guess you can write proofs in SKI by treating it like the Hilbert system it was derived from. But you can't use the deduction theorem
11:08:02 <cpressey> for brevity, you have to write it all out in full.
11:08:38 <cpressey> It sounds awful, but it also sound like you could "compile" a sentence in first-order logic, into it.
11:09:50 <wib_jonas> my first encounter of combinatory logic was unlambda
11:09:56 <cpressey> Rather I think I mean, "compile" a proof written in natural deduction style in FOL, into it.
11:12:19 <cpressey> "Under the Curry–Howard correspondence, the above conversion process for the deduction meta-theorem is analogous to the conversion process from lambda calculus terms to terms of combinatory logic" oh. Well. Okay then
11:12:24 <int-e> cpressey: W makes perfect sense if you have an explicit rule for duplicating premises in a sequent
11:13:13 <int-e> the C f x = f x x one
11:13:51 <wib_jonas> cpressey: see https://esolangs.org/wiki/Combinatory_logic
11:13:54 <int-e> (is there another?)
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11:15:39 <cpressey> I was just hoping you weren't referring to some System W that I'd never heard of. Anyway yes. W is dup and C is swap and this is Forth
11:19:52 <cpressey> So if the answer to my (unspoken) question "What's one of the simplest languages in which a proof can be stated and mechanically checked?" is "SK-calculus" then I guess my question becomes "How complex would a compiler from a tolerable proof language, to SK-terms, be?"
11:20:21 <myname> that depends on what you'd call tolerable
11:20:28 <myname> haskell to SK should be pretty easy
11:20:59 <myname> like, we do that manually in first semester here
11:21:20 <cpressey> You convert proofs written in Haskell into proofs written in SKI-calculus?
11:22:08 <myname> not proofs as such but small programms to lambda calculus and lambda calculus to SKI
11:22:19 <myname> removing I should be fairly easy
11:29:45 <wib_jonas> I only remember the bird name of two combinators really: S is seregély and K is vércse
11:30:16 <wib_jonas> also, do we have a link from the wiki to the crocodile family interpretation of lambda calculus_
11:31:32 <myname> aren't those alligators?
11:32:09 <myname> K is clearly for cancel
11:34:05 <Taneb> wib_jonas: what is that?
11:35:13 <esowiki> [[Lambda calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66657&oldid=58720 * B jonas * (+732) Alligator eggs
11:35:54 <myname> I don't really like them that much
11:37:55 <int-e> Birdlife: Kestrels compete with starlings for nest cavities
11:38:08 <int-e> I didn't know that there was so much competition in the SK world.
11:41:03 <esowiki> [[Lambda calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66658&oldid=66657 * B jonas * (+16) /* External resources */
12:22:43 <esowiki> [[Deadfish~]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66659&oldid=66653 * A * (-9) /* Implementation */
12:49:42 <esowiki> [[Wagon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66660&oldid=66656 * Chris Pressey * (+1032) Create partially-filled-out table of primitive Wagon macros.
12:58:59 <esowiki> [[Wagon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66661&oldid=66660 * Chris Pressey * (+1074) Finish the primitives stable. No longer a stub, I think.
14:19:38 <esowiki> [[User:Camto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66662&oldid=60398 * Camto * (+19) Lmao
14:20:56 <esowiki> [[User:Camto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66663&oldid=66662 * Camto * (+6) Rewording
14:24:02 <esowiki> [[User:Camto]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66664&oldid=66663 * Camto * (-70) Friendship ended with OOT Now Thue is my best friend
14:24:32 <esowiki> [[User:Camto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66665&oldid=66664 * Camto * (+6) Aha
14:26:14 <esowiki> [[User:Camto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66666&oldid=66665 * Camto * (+7) BF dialecs
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17:45:52 <arseniiv> I had a thought to take from J its part-of-speech terminolody and strange rules (which I don’t know) and from Lojban its puristic non-european-centric approach to terminology and that to result in an obfuscation-first language but it would need more good ideas
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17:52:55 <b_jonas> épelung: a spelling reform for the English language where you spell words the same as the most corresponding etymologically related word in modern German or modern French
17:53:37 <b_jonas> this sounds like it probably has a canonical execution somewhere on the internet, but searching for "épelung" or "épeleung" shows that those words are quasi-nonexistent, and what else would you call this system?
17:56:01 <imode> https://repl.it/repls/ShadowyBumpyLinkedlist
17:59:01 <zzo38> I don't know what it is call, perhaps, is English without English.
18:10:16 <b_jonas> also, yesterday's SMBC http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/mathematicians about matrix multiplication algorithm asymptotics is fun
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19:56:30 <arseniiv> oh int-e I’ve just read what you @told that time
20:24:30 <zzo38> Do you know how to make text formatting in PostScript? To implement printer output in the implementation of Z-machine in PostScript, I should know how to do that.
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20:55:44 <Cale> .oO(A legendary land that enters untapped and taps for one mana of any colour that could not be produced by your other mana in play.)
20:56:28 <Cale> other lands* in play
20:56:37 <zzo38> OK, that might do.
20:56:42 <zzo38> Is there such a card?
20:56:54 <Cale> Would be kind of interesting
20:57:28 <shachaf> Any lands on the battlefield or any lands you control?
20:58:01 <Cale> lands you control, probably?
20:58:01 <shachaf> Can it also be tapped for colorless?
20:59:16 <Cale> Any lands on the battlefield (including your opponents') might make it unusable
20:59:51 <Cale> I don't think it'd be able to tap for colourless, but obviously that could be a variation on the idea
21:07:08 <zzo38> If you have more than one land with that ability, then what? Rule 106.7 doesn't seem to mention if they interfere with each other in this way.
21:07:18 <zzo38> (Although, rule 106.7 could be fixed so that it does work.)
21:08:11 <shachaf> zzo38: Well, it's a legendary land anyway.
21:08:19 <zzo38> Yes, but there are still ways to work around that.
21:08:45 <zzo38> (e.g. Mirror Gallery)
21:10:48 <Cale> Probably it should be considered a land that could produce mana of any colour, so that it shuts off any other copies of itself entirely.
21:11:14 <Cale> (but yeah, there's a funny paradox there)
21:11:34 <shachaf> I don't think it's much of a paradox.
21:11:50 <shachaf> It is a bit different from other mana abilities.
21:12:12 <Cale> It's almost exactly Russell's paradox :D
21:12:58 <shachaf> Sure, but I meant that answers to this kind of question are established.
21:13:34 <zzo38> Note that rule 106.7 does not say only mana abilities or only activated abilities.
21:15:33 <Cale> Or how about a land that can produce 2 mana of any colour that you have no devotion to?
21:15:56 <zzo38> Yes, that is another possibility, I think.
21:16:00 <Cale> That might be too good for activated abilities...
21:16:10 <zzo38> O, yes, I suppose so
21:16:23 <zzo38> Maybe base it on color identity
21:18:45 <b_jonas> Cale: how does that behave if you have such a land and a Forest in play and the opponent has a Plains and an Exotic Orchard in play?
21:18:45 <zzo38> In RDF format, "add one mana of any color that no other land you control could produce" might be something like: [:add-mana [:choose [:and :color, [:not [:any-could-produce [:and :land, [:controller :you], [:not :this]]]]]]]]
21:20:32 <Cale> b_jonas: I'm not sure, does Exotic Orchard usually care about predicates that restrict mana abilities?
21:21:21 <Cale> b_jonas: "Exotic Orchard doesn’t care about any restrictions or riders your opponents’ lands (such as Ancient Ziggurat or Hall of the Bandit Lord) put on the mana they produce. It just cares about colors of mana."
21:21:22 <zzo38> Yes, that is another case. Rule 106.7 mentions Exotic Orchard as an example.
21:21:55 <b_jonas> Cale: or more simply, how does it work if you have that land and a Forest and Reflecting Pool in play, and the opponent has four Plains?
21:22:02 <zzo38> But that what you quoted is clear enough from the rules I think, but it is not relevant to the case you have here
21:23:38 <Cale> ah, right, it does actually care about the state of the cards in play
21:23:56 <Cale> Lands that produce mana based only on what other lands “could produce” won’t help each other unless some other land allows one of them to actually produce some type of mana. For example, if you control an Exotic Orchard and your opponent controls an Exotic Orchard and a Reflecting Pool, none of those lands would produce mana if their mana abilities were activated. On the other hand, if you control a Forest and an Exotic Orc
21:23:57 <Cale> hard, and your opponent controls an Exotic Orchard and a Reflecting Pool, then each of those lands can be tapped to produce Green. Your opponent’s Exotic Orchard can produce Green because you control a Forest. Your Exotic Orchard and your opponent’s Reflecting Pool can each produce Green because your opponent’s Exotic Orchard can produce Green.
21:25:24 <Cale> But yeah, it's an additional weird twist when it's "can't produce"
21:26:30 <zzo38> Yes, all of that you mentioned is what would be done by rule 106.7. But, yes, the "can't produce" can result in no stable result, it seem like.
21:29:54 <zzo38> (I would think that the RDF code I mentioned probably wouldn't compile (if a compiler for it were implemented), or if it does compile, result in an infinite loop or stack overflow.)
21:31:50 <Cale> There are a few sensible ways that one could clarify what happens, like explicitly disallowing cycles in the determination of whether an ability can produce mana of a given type.
21:32:25 <zzo38> Yes, that was also my idea about how to amend rule 106.7
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21:34:15 <b_jonas> I was thinking that if you put this effect into the triggered ability of a Growth-like enchantment, maybe it becomes impossible to make a cycle, but I'm not really sure
21:37:03 <zzo38> Since that triggered ability is not an ability of a land, then it might work. Still, I think the rule should be amended in case
21:38:02 <esowiki> [[Unlambda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66667&oldid=51370 * B jonas * (+312) /* External resources */ IOCCC winner interpreter
21:39:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: right, but it's hard to know whether there is a way to turn it into a land, or have an ability that cares about what mana some non-land permanents could produce, now or in future cards
21:39:46 <zzo38> Yes, I thought of that, which is why the rule should be amended anyways in case
21:40:01 <b_jonas> Imprisoned in the Moon can turn an existing permanent into a land
21:40:54 <zzo38> Although it deletes that permanent's abilities, too.
21:41:52 <b_jonas> yes, that's why I think that doesn't help
21:45:33 <zzo38> (My own opinion is the rules ought to support combinations that do not currently exist.)
21:46:10 <zzo38> I also made up this land card (based on the story of the GURPS I have played): Sun Town {-} Legendary World Land ;; Vehicles cannot enter the battlefield. ;; At the beginning of each end combat step, end the turn. ;; {T}: Add {C}. ;; {1}, {T}: Add {W}.
21:47:11 <b_jonas> Song of the Dryads is another such card
21:48:28 <zzo38> Yes, but rule 305.7 causes its abilities to be deleted.
21:49:51 <zzo38> Still, if something else can grant it an ability, then it can be kept and rule 305.7 only deletes the abilities due to its own text.
21:52:44 <Cale> Wow, vehicle hate
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01:41:55 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/zmachine/interp/zmachine.ps
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02:42:51 <zzo38> Did you try this file?
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07:07:02 <HackEso> loncoin sherecoin qrabcoin etchercoin 2d-refcoin nuourcoin befosbacoin iutcoin vircoin ampatjtcoin subricasmigrcoin bucracoin ethonatadcoin stackscoin toncoin difficecoin disocieucoin melocoin flabcoin fromcoin
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07:25:52 <kmc> did i invent `coins
07:25:57 <kmc> i forgot about `coins
07:26:01 <kmc> `paste bin/coins
07:26:04 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin/coins
07:26:38 <kmc> apparently yes https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/bin/coins
07:27:39 <kmc> `paste bin/words
07:27:40 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin/words
07:27:50 <kmc> `coins irish
07:27:52 <HackEso> Argument "irish" isn't numeric in int at /hackenv/bin/words line 148. \ coin
07:28:01 <HackEso> 4627:2014-05-04 <km̈c> echo "words \\${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re \'s/( |$)/coin\\1/g\' | rainwords" > bin/coins \ 4486:2014-02-22 <oerjän> sed -i \'s/--eng-1M --esolangs [$]{1-/${1---eng-1M --esolangs /\' bin/coins \ 4439:2014-02-12 <FireFl̈y> sed -i \'s/20/\\${1-&}/\' bin/coins; coins \ 4413:2014-02-07 <iön> printf \'%s\\n\' \'words --eng-1M --esolangs 20 | sed -re \'\\\'\'s/( |$)/coin\\1/g\'\\\' | tee bin/coins \ 4412:2014-02
07:28:12 <kmc> `coins --irish
07:28:22 <HackEso> 4411:2014-02-07 <km̈c> echo \'for w in $(words --eng-1M --esolangs 20); do echo -n "${w}coin "; done\' > bin/coins && chmod +x bin/coins \ 4412:2014-02-07 <km̈c> echo \'words --eng-1M --esolangs 20 | sed -re \'"\'"\'s/\\>/coin/g\'"\'"\'\' > bin/coins \ 4413:2014-02-07 <iön> printf \'%s\\n\' \'words --eng-1M --esolangs 20 | sed -re \'\\\'\'s/( |$)/coin\\1/g\'\\\' | tee bin/coins \ 4439:2014-02-12 <FireFl̈y> sed -i \'s/20/\\${1-&}/\' bin/co
07:28:35 <HackEso> ycoin hebnetonuercoin threactrauncitacoin obstacoin tlacoin ace1.0coin bogcoin walphawcoin suracoin braincoin statecoin filcoin smrincoin furlmcoin sposcoin thenencoin orthated!coin weaklcoin forthinecoin 231coin
07:28:52 <kmc> obstacoin is a pretty good one
07:29:01 <kmc> as is bogcoin
07:29:06 <HackEso> murcoin gcoptercoin d1fycoin fancoin weakcoin blacoburgcoin blatorcoin entcoin aireoncoin bencoin dobeling-bookcoin prefcoin famutticoin maicoin 50150.00coin choucoin brahcoin broncoin snmngnomeheadycoin alizercoin
07:29:27 <shachaf> did you also make https://twitter.com/CryptoGenerator
07:29:47 <kmc> where would it get "50150.00" from?
07:29:56 <kmc> shachaf: no
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08:10:19 <oerjan> <wib_jonas> oerjan: as for "hungry", the relevant wisdom is <-- i know, i was briefly considering making a specific wisdom for it, which would naturally mention bell peppers.
08:16:17 <shachaf> Wait, what's this bell pepper nonsense?
08:34:35 <oerjan> `le/rn Hungry//Hungry is a country in Europe, formerly part of the Ostrich empire. It split after a famine that got so severe that they had to start editing disgusting things like bell peppers. Absurdly, this became a tradition that continues until the present day.
08:34:37 <HackEso> Learned 'hungry': Hungry is a country in Europe, formerly part of the Ostrich empire. It split after a famine that got so severe that they had to start editing disgusting things like bell peppers. Absurdly, this became a tradition that continues until the present day.
08:35:59 <oerjan> `slwd hungry//s,edit,eat,
08:36:03 <HackEso> hungry//Hungry is a country in Europe, formerly part of the Ostrich empire. It split after a famine that got so severe that they had to start eating disgusting things like bell peppers. Absurdly, this became a tradition that continues until the present day.
08:36:16 <HackEso> dth is the dth ordinal. dth?
08:36:32 <HackEso> files="$(lastfiles)"; sed -i "$1" "$files"
08:37:45 <oerjan> `sedlast s,split,& off,
08:37:47 <HackEso> wisdom/hungry//Hungry is a country in Europe, formerly part of the Ostrich empire. It split off after a famine that got so severe that they had to start eating disgusting things like bell peppers. Absurdly, this became a tradition that continues until the present day.
08:38:51 <oerjan> (disclaimer: i actually like bell peppers, this wisdom is distinctly shachaf-inspired)
08:40:01 <oerjan> i also like broccoli and brussels sprouts hth
08:40:47 <oerjan> so i guess i don't have that gene i've seen mentioned
08:42:32 <shachaf> I'm pretty neutral on broccoli and sprouts. Slightly positive on Brussels.
08:45:37 <oerjan> iirc supposedly some people think the plants in that species/genus taste bitter, others don't
08:46:29 <shachaf> I heard about coriander and cilantro.
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09:37:55 <oerjan> shachaf: i see i should link you to our old discussion of quineless languages at https://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Smjg (although the counterexamples boil down to what you call "encoding issues")
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11:24:13 <cpressey> int-e: fwiw I'm reading a history of lambda-calculus and it's making several things clearer, for instance, that the parallel reductions technique was actually developed for the purpose of improving on the earliest proofs of confluence of CL :)
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11:51:49 <int-e> Hmm, "a very minimal API set that only included ~18K APIs".
11:54:36 <int-e> Slightly abridged from https://github.com/dotnet/announcements/issues/130 ... unfortunately it makes more sense in that context than it should.
11:56:51 <int-e> (If your goal is to re-implement a massive API to support applications written for that API... then "minimal" gets a radically new perspective... namely, coverage of the API used by existing applications.)
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12:15:46 <wib_jonas> apparently python 3.8.0 was released two days ago
12:16:31 <wib_jonas> `python3 -cimport sys;print(sys.version)
12:16:32 <HackEso> 3.5.3 (default, Sep 27 2018, 17:25:39) \ [GCC 6.3.0 20170516]
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16:30:39 <int-e> ... puns! "libunbound" is a DNS resolver library.
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16:45:47 <arseniiv> first soda and citric acid were more or less balanced and it was not unlike normal honey, but with some sparkliness, then I added more soda and mixed it all into my tea
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19:34:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DPS2004 * New user account
19:37:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66668&oldid=66646 * DPS2004 * (+191) /* Introductions */ introduced myself :)
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20:00:18 <arseniiv> IOCCC is useful, now I have two more articles to read
20:01:01 <arseniiv> about Reduceron and a functional pearl on enumerating a regular language given a regex
20:03:50 <arseniiv> three now, also Oleg’s “λ to SKI, semantically”
20:38:21 <HackEso> olist 1182: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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21:28:43 <HackEso> olist 1182: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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21:51:31 <fizzie> More libraries should have names that make the "-lfoo" argument sound good, like libiberty.
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22:15:34 <b_jonas> fizzie: and warning options like -Wall and defines with the -D and -U switches?
23:10:15 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66669&oldid=66519 * Vulture001 * (+91) /* General languages */
23:31:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Vulture001 * uploaded "[[File:Aggressthon logo.png]]": Public domain
23:32:20 <esowiki> [[Aggressthon]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66671 * Vulture001 * (+1220) Created page
23:36:20 <esowiki> [[Aggressthon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66672&oldid=66671 * Vulture001 * (+11)
23:46:43 <esowiki> [[Aggressthon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66673&oldid=66672 * Vulture001 * (+1) /* Instructions */
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00:09:10 <esowiki> [[Aggressthon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66674&oldid=66673 * Vulture001 * (+2)
00:22:04 <esowiki> [[Aggressthon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66675&oldid=66674 * Vulture001 * (+534)
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12:45:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66676&oldid=66516 * TwilightSparkle * (+13) /* List of candidates */
12:46:36 <esowiki> [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66677&oldid=66559 * TwilightSparkle * (+13) /* Turing-Completeness */
13:35:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Or]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66678&oldid=43204 * A * (+408)
13:57:26 <esowiki> [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66679&oldid=66677 * TwilightSparkle * (+30) /* Quine */
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14:26:18 <DPS2004> can I get some feedback on a language im working on?
14:27:02 <int-e> stranger things have happened
14:27:26 <DPS2004> wait are you replying to me?
14:28:03 <int-e> But I'm trying not to promise anything.
14:28:06 <DPS2004> aigt gonna paste in what I have so far
14:28:10 <DPS2004> To declare a variable named foo with the value of 2:
14:29:18 <int-e> Sounds painful. :)
14:31:08 <int-e> though tbh we usually care more about the semantics than the syntax
14:31:30 <DPS2004> im sorta basing it on Esketit
14:34:21 <DPS2004> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esketit
14:35:59 <int-e> Hmm, cute, but it seems rather limited.
14:37:28 <DPS2004> im kinda stuck on things to add
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14:40:27 <int-e> the standard mix for a programming language seems to be: something loopy, something conditional, something arithmetic, something noisy (output), something perceptive (input), shake and pour.
14:41:08 <int-e> of course we'll still call the result boring.
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14:47:12 <DPS2004> shit sorry the internet went out
14:47:41 <DPS2004> but yeah ill think something up for input
14:49:24 <DPS2004> your heart's been aching but you're too shy to say (prompt goes here)
14:53:42 <wib_jonas> int-e: we also need something remembery
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15:51:59 <esowiki> [[NeverGonna]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66680 * DPS2004 * (+2167) finished all the things!
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15:53:42 <esowiki> [[NeverGonna]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66681&oldid=66680 * DPS2004 * (+24) lol oops forgot to tag it as a language
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15:55:57 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66682&oldid=66641 * DPS2004 * (+17) /* N */ added NeverGonna
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16:36:07 <arseniiv> Oleg’s article: “We present another pearl of the translation from lambda-terms to SKI combinators and show off its facets.”
16:36:07 <arseniiv> a pearl with facets… omg it have to be multidimensional and not precisely a sphere, or something
16:36:51 <int-e> pearls and facets *are* an odd mix.
16:37:15 <arseniiv> maybe it’s a pearl with a glittery aluminium scales inside, which will do as facets?
16:37:50 <DPS2004> what if i edited never gonna give you up in audacity so rick astley sings the fizzbuzz code
16:38:16 <int-e> DPS2004: go ahead, we'll only hate you for it. forever.
16:38:48 <arseniiv> could Rick Astley sing 1000 first digits of pi instead
16:39:16 <arseniiv> or better, denominators of its representation as a continued fraction
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16:42:22 <int-e> John Oliver did a rickroll recently. I was not amused :)
16:43:28 <int-e> Fortunately I forgot everything else about the episode so I can't find it now.
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16:45:16 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66683&oldid=66382 * Palaiologos * (+470)
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17:02:41 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66684&oldid=66683 * Palaiologos * (-7) Golf the code down.
17:05:34 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66685&oldid=66684 * Palaiologos * (-2) Golf down one byte.
17:06:35 <int-e> kspalaiologos: esowiki is a bot.
17:08:09 <kspalaiologos> I haven't been talking to him, but rather finding excuses for spamming the channel
17:13:15 <int-e> Hrm, https://esolangs.org/wiki/File:Aggressthon_logo.png seems problematic (cf. https://www.python.org/community/logos/)
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17:21:27 <fizzie> int-e: Hmm, I think that's a little subtle. We don't really have a policy on trademarks (CC0 explicitly calls them out of scope), and I don't think the Python page is super-clear about the copyright status of the work, it only talks about the trademark aspect.
17:21:31 <fizzie> It probably does fail the PSF Trademark Usage Policy section on "do not want these trademarks to be used to refer to any other programming language".
17:22:41 <fizzie> (And the section on derived logos.)
17:24:26 <DPS2004> how do I make rick astley say "Zero"
17:24:33 <DPS2004> what words can I chop up to make that
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17:32:46 <DPS2004> ugh why do I keep on getting dc'd
17:34:09 <int-e> DPS2004: Freenode blames your end: DPS2004 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds], DPS2004 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:42:16 <arseniiv> . o O ( behold the new language for traquill and methodical evaluation, OCalm )
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17:44:57 <DPS2004> https://vocaroo.com/i/s06nrPmzi89K I know the "zero" is a little rough, but how does this sound?
17:47:22 <DPS2004> https://esolangs.org/wiki/NeverGonna Im trying to get him to sing the fizzbuzz
17:48:33 <kspalaiologos> to make the everything sound like a single sentence
17:48:49 <kspalaiologos> you might want to extract single phonems from his songs and tune them to fixed frequency
17:49:17 <DPS2004> no idea how to do that lol
17:49:28 <DPS2004> i think im gonna keep on going in audacity
17:49:34 <kspalaiologos> just look at the phonetical description of what hes singing
17:49:59 <kspalaiologos> then tune all of these to same tone using audacity
17:50:30 <kspalaiologos> however, I can't quite tell how good will the outcome be
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20:09:38 <esowiki> [[99 bottles of beer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66686&oldid=61816 * B jonas * (+86) /* External resources */
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21:22:47 <shachaf> @let luby = map snd $ iterate (\(u,v) -> if u .&. (-u) == v then (u+1,1) else (u,v*2)) (1,1)
21:22:52 <lambdabot> [1,1,2,1,1,2,4,1,1,2,1,1,2,4,8,1,1,2,1,1,2,4,1,1,2,1,1,2,4,8,16,1,1,2,1,1,2,...
21:29:15 <shachaf> "Number of elements merged by bottom-up merge sort"? I guess.
21:31:09 <b_jonas> shachaf: there may be other interpretations than that title
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04:14:17 <A55> fungot: Who created the 'or' language?
04:14:18 <fungot> A55: at one point.) i'll try to look at these proofs you'll see that the number of buckets you use to read pdfs which preview/ acroread can't deal with the case that sys-readdir always have "."
04:14:59 <A55> fungot:Fnordy morning to you
04:15:00 <fungot> A55: i guess we should take haskell and give it a crack. i love it.) you should get some headphones chosen, sound maybe will be fnord. they're comfortable, and they refused to sense any opportunity for the opposite party since that might have something other fun esolang competition
04:15:36 <A55> Weird. I can't get fungot to answer https://esolangs.org/wiki/Or related questions.
04:15:36 <fungot> A55: fortunately the doctors at the university of copenhagen ( datalogisk institutut k?benhavns universitet) server box with a null
04:16:05 <A55> fungot:I know the language.
04:16:28 <A55> fungot:Shall I correct you?
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04:17:37 <A55> fungot: Shall I correct you?
04:18:18 <A55> fungot: Shall I teach you?
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07:05:59 <b_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.smackjeeves.com/comics/
07:06:01 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.smackjeeves.com/comics/: b_jonas
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11:10:27 <fizzie> What's that all about.
11:11:56 <fizzie> Looks like it's about the internet at home.
11:12:44 <fizzie> My ISP has a "dashboard", but it's literally just a rounded rectangle on the account management page which says "Your Service status is: (orb)", where the orb is either red or green. Right now it's red.
11:13:53 <fizzie> Well, okay, there's also a hover tooltip box saying "we're sorry for the disruption" and "our engineers are currently investigating the cause and will work to restore connectivity as soon as possible".
11:14:16 <wib_jonas> fizzie: is it a dashboard that you can view from other internet connections, or only from yours?
11:14:23 <int-e> so a bit like the "Inside Out" baby stage... just minus the button?
11:14:58 <fizzie> I've never seen the tooltip say anything else, and it always says that within seconds of the connection going down, so I don't think it actually means anything in particular except that their monitoring has realized it's down.
11:15:27 <fizzie> wib_jonas: I can view it from anywhere by logging in to the same wobsite where you manage billing and that sort of stuff.
11:15:37 <int-e> It's vitally important to reduce the number of calls for customer support.
11:18:11 <wib_jonas> fizzie: in that case they probably also have access to the same dashboard, and by just you loading it, their server tells their engineers that your connection is down
11:19:14 <fizzie> It's on the page you get immediately after logging in, so I don't think they can quite infer it's down just from me opening that page.
11:19:39 <fizzie> Although realistically that'd have about 98% accuracy in practice.
11:20:44 <fizzie> My previous ISP had a read-only view into what looked like their actual issue tracker, which was nice. Although it was mostly just copies of BT's outages, because it was a DSL thing over BT's network.
11:36:22 <wib_jonas> fizzie: not from just opening the page, obviously. but their server knows whether the page tells you it's up or down
11:38:51 <int-e> wib_jonas: you mean loading the page might act as a thumbs up on the corresponding ticket?
11:40:03 <wib_jonas> int-e: loading the page tells them that someone cares about the internet being down on that connection. many of their users won't care, because they're sleeping or something. they might prioritize customers who look at the dashboard.
11:40:46 <int-e> I guess it's possible.
11:41:29 <myname> "you have services running at home but aren't there and awake 24/7? too bad"
11:42:00 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66687&oldid=57199 * B jonas * (+90) Rosetta Code
11:42:21 <wib_jonas> myname: obviously the priority only matters when they can't fix all their bugs :-)
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11:59:12 <esowiki> [[Fibonacci sequence]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66688&oldid=18125 * B jonas * (+164) Rosetta Code
12:00:13 <esowiki> [[Hello, world!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66689&oldid=50490 * B jonas * (+72) Rosetta Code
12:01:31 <esowiki> [[Quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66690&oldid=60899 * B jonas * (+60) Rosetta Code
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13:01:27 <cpressey> While researching various things related to "equational logic" I have discovered that there is also "inequational logic". But not many people use this term. I suspect this is because inequational logic has a much better-known name, which is "term rewriting".
13:01:57 <cpressey> At least, I am at a loss to see any essential difference between inequational logic and term rewriting.
13:05:10 <wib_jonas> argh... this thing at work is terribly inconsistent. I'll have to fix it by redoing the whole thing, for which I have to figure out what the correct settings is
13:06:40 <int-e> cpressey: hmm, in principle an inequational logic could go further (it could distinguish between covariant, contravariant, and ambiguous arguments of functions, for example)
13:07:52 <int-e> (I'm just interepreting the term as I'd read it... I have never encountered it in the term rewriting context. Term rewriting people use things like (weakly) monotone algebras that orient rules, in termination proofs for example.)
13:13:02 <cpressey> int-e: Say you had a term rewriting system, and you wanted to describe its semantics as a set of axioms. You'd have ones like "If a rewites to b, then (ca) rewrites to (cb)", and "If a rewrites to b, and b rewrites to c, then a rewrites to c"... these are the same axioms that get listed when describing an inequational logic.
13:13:40 <cpressey> There might be small differences between the two concepts, sure.
13:17:28 <int-e> cpressey: I'm just saying that given the term "inequaltional logic" you could do more. If a >= b then f(a) >= f(b) but g(b) >= g(a).
13:17:40 <int-e> cpressey: so you could have monotonic and antimonotonic functions.
13:18:15 <int-e> cpressey: But it appears that this isn't done and then it's indeed just another name for term rewriting.
13:25:25 <cpressey> int-e: I think I follow what you're saying -- you can start with an inequational logic, then add axioms that allow it to say more than you could say with a TRS, yet don't interfere with its purpose as an inequational logic?
13:26:47 <cpressey> I'd agree with that but I think I'm not thinking quite that far ahead yet :)
13:28:48 <int-e> cpressey: the downside would be that context matters... you couldn't replace any subterm by a smaller one anymore.
13:29:04 <int-e> So it'd be heading in a different direction from rewriting.
13:29:36 <int-e> Anyway. This happens when I encounter a new term... I first try to fill it with content myself.
13:29:58 <int-e> I'm wrong 80% of the time :P
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13:34:00 <cpressey> Well, I'm fairly excited about it from the meta-logical angle. You can use term rewriting to derive proofs of theorems under some theory, and in inequational logic you have a theory of term rewriting.
13:34:54 <cpressey> In short it seems to confirm my feeling that a non-deterministic term rewriting language is sufficient for writing machine-checkable proofs in.
13:37:59 <int-e> isn't that somewhat true for all models of computation :)
13:39:31 <arseniiv> I’m disappointed in what was going on in https://ai.stackexchange.com/questions/15730/can-digital-computers-understand-infinity
13:39:31 <arseniiv> many noted layman’s “understand” is an ambiguous non-notion but a few if at all noted the same about layman’s “infinity”. When talking about a specific “infinity” instance, things should get way clearer. There would be no denying some commenters are antropocentric, or should I say psyche-centric, at its worst
13:39:51 <arseniiv> very very disappointed. Say you agree with me please
13:40:11 <arseniiv> or even better don’t read that thing at all, it’s not that good
13:43:21 <cpressey> "We can think, principally, and "understand" infinitely many numbers that are displayed on the screen." must be a pretty big screen
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13:48:28 <fizzie> Hey, it's *not* always the same placeholder text. Now it says: "We're sorry to advise that we're experiencing a technical issue which has resulted in a temporary loss of broadband services to your building." I guess that's a good sign.
13:49:01 <HackEso> [U+1F64C PERSON RAISING BOTH HANDS IN CELEBRATION] [U+1F608 SMILING FACE WITH HORNS] [U+1F430 RABBIT FACE]
13:49:41 <arseniiv> all those prevalent chinese rooms in there too. I’d say popular understanding of a human mental capability is illusional and mostly based on accounts of introspection, not normal science, and what would chinese argumentists say if their chinese room would argue that it has introspection and it introspected that it e. g. understands and it’s unfair to deny that, and any human they meet is indistinguishable from that, so how do they c
13:49:41 <arseniiv> hoose to believe or not? Antropocentrically </rant>
13:51:21 <int-e> "understanding" seems to be a deeply anthropomorphic concept to me.
13:52:12 <int-e> maybe "can computers learn to solve problems involving infinity"?
13:52:47 <int-e> Still vague, but at least it's moving closer to something testable.
13:52:55 <int-e> (didn't read the stackexchange link)
13:53:48 <arseniiv> int-e: not that it isn’t, that had been tried to be clarified in various ways, but I’m at a loss to understand why wasn’t that done for “infinity”, as it is a topic of the question
13:54:40 <arseniiv> there was a link to some SO question about formalizing infinity, and I bet there were all kinds of infinities math has to offer, but I don’t think many commenters followed through with reading that
13:54:42 <int-e> arseniiv: You're not wrong!
13:55:29 <arseniiv> as I tend to be wrong while heated
13:55:31 <int-e> But I'd also focus on "undertanding" first. :)
13:58:04 <arseniiv> on a tangent, I’m slightly sad about antropocenteredness, cause it seems to be a reason of many bitter misunderstandings, as humans are modeled being more infailible that they are
13:59:23 <arseniiv> it’s constructive to try to understand flaws in our hardware but it’s almost not being done, not even basics at schools (I presume, worldwide), not some other stuff in social media etc.
13:59:57 <arseniiv> okay many know about logical fallacies but that’s not too many and that’s not enough I think
14:01:29 <arseniiv> by “not being done”, I mean not trying to discover them, that’s of course almost at its best now, as neurosciences go forward very fast, but trying to make general public aware
14:01:33 <int-e> I think there's a difference between anthropocentric thinking (I'm fine with that, really... we are humans after all and spend a lot of time with ourselves and other people) and ascribing super-Turing powers to humans :P
14:02:32 <int-e> The latter is a sort of mystification that I don't approve of.
14:03:14 <arseniiv> as many of the flaws are quite good at not being noticed because of our filling-in gaps, another bittersweet architecture choice of evolution
14:03:40 <arseniiv> int-e: some antropocentrism is normal, I agree, but it seems there is a line somewhere
14:03:58 <arseniiv> maybe in what is explicit and what is implicit
14:04:41 <arseniiv> if one is aware that she thinks antropocentrically, and why it needs to be so, it’s okay
14:05:20 <arseniiv> but in the most part that’s all implicit, deep waters of unconscious patterns or something
14:05:36 <arseniiv> and the power of rationalizing that into some nonsense
14:08:43 <arseniiv> BTW that Oleg’s paper was interesting
14:09:11 <int-e> rationalization is the ultimate AI problem
14:09:44 <arseniiv> I can’t say I fully understand (eek) it but it seems nice (and maybe even useful to me in the future?)
14:11:16 <arseniiv> “The Reduceron reconfigured and re-evaluated” had shown me some useful things too if I’d wish to design a virtual machine for something near-functional
14:12:15 <arseniiv> now there’s only one left, about writing in Haskell enumeration of a regex’s language through FSAs
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14:22:11 <wib_jonas> fizzie: they added randomness to the placeholder text? nice.
14:33:55 <fizzie> Hm, I wonder if you can have OpenSSH require two public keys instead of just one.
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14:37:21 <DPS2004> do you think its possible to write a quine in NeverGonna?
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14:44:57 <wib_jonas> fizzie: two public keys? what do you mean?
14:45:49 <wib_jonas> fizzie: do you mean require that the user who logs in has the matching private key for _one_ of two public keys, because if so, you can do that, just put multiple keys (one per line) in the file that contains the public keys
14:48:01 <fizzie> No, I was thinking the user who logs in would need to have matching private keys for two different public keys.
14:48:23 <fizzie> I think that's unlikely to be a thing.
14:49:17 <wib_jonas> is there even such a thing in the SSL protocol that a client supports? how do I tell the client config to use two keys?
14:49:31 <fizzie> I think you can provide multiple identities, yes.
14:49:47 <fizzie> Definitely a SSH agent can hold multiple keys in memory, and will offer to use all of them when signing.
14:50:05 <fizzie> But it might be that the details of the protocol prevent you from actually performing authentication with more than one.
14:50:43 <wib_jonas> I don't know how that works, I've always just put one explicit filename for each host in my client config file
14:50:52 <wib_jonas> one explicit private key filename that is
14:51:00 <wib_jonas> but possibly different filenames for different hosts
14:51:20 <fizzie> I know you can (nowadays) configure OpenSSH to require multiple authentication *methods* (as in, "public key and password" e.g.), but that probably doesn't apply to multiple keys.
14:52:59 <wib_jonas> fizzie: multiple methods as in allow connections only from certain hosts but still ask for a key, sure
14:53:15 <wib_jonas> public key and password is alternative, you can log in via either one
14:53:30 <fizzie> No, you can require both.
14:53:38 <fizzie> Via the "AuthenticationMethods" option.
14:53:54 <fizzie> "For example, "publickey,password publickey,keyboard-interactive" would require the user to complete public key authentication, followed by or more comma-separated lists of authentication method names, or by the single string any to indicate the default behaviour of accepting any single authentication method."
14:54:07 <fizzie> I didn't know this earlier either, only learned about it now.
14:54:25 <fizzie> I messed up that copy-paste.
14:54:37 <fizzie> "For example, "publickey,password publickey,keyboard-interactive" would require the user to complete public key authentication, followed by either password or keyboard interactive authentication."
14:54:41 <fizzie> Lost track on which line I was on.
14:55:52 <fizzie> The context for this train of thought is, Android has a "secure hardware" thingamajick for keeping RSA and EC keys in, and asking the hardware to sign them. There's an SSH agent implementation that hooks that and allows secure hardware keys to be used as SSH keys -- https://github.com/aeolwyr/tergent -- but there's no way to attach a passphrase to that, the keys get unlocked when you unlock the device.
14:56:11 <fizzie> I was thinking it might be reasonable to have both a key like that + a separate passphrase-protected private key, if you wanted to require more from SSH authentication than from in general unlocking the phone. Just because fingerprints are so convenient.
14:56:17 <fizzie> But in retrospect maybe that's not really much of a security benefit over just having a single passphrase-protected public key stored in a regular file.
15:02:29 <wib_jonas> fizzie: could you just handle that on client-side, by encoding the second private key not by your passphrase, but by a tuple of your passphrase and something secret derived from the device key?
15:06:31 <fizzie> AFAIK, the only things I can ask the hardware to do is to sign something or to verify a signature, using the protected private key. So it's not entirely obvious how to use that for protecting the second private key.
15:09:13 <fizzie> I guess technically I could use the signature of my passphrase as the "something secret derived from the device key"? At least that works in the scenario where someone has the (second) private key file, and knows my passphrase.
15:09:47 <fizzie> OTOH, it would probably involve writing some code, I don't know if I want to go that far.
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15:23:13 <wib_jonas> fizzie: I don't think that's a good idea
15:24:23 <wib_jonas> ask other people here who understand this crypto stuff though
15:31:00 <fizzie> It's obviously not a good idea in the sense that knowing the passphrase and that one signature would be sufficient to decode the second private key file, as opposed to something where you would actually need to have control over the first private key and show you can sign anything with it. But it's not clear how to do that on the client side.
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17:33:19 <kmc> fungot: welcome
17:33:20 <fungot> kmc: to avoid cgi. anything beyond that becomes unmanageable to an alarming degree. it happens to work in
17:34:34 <fungot> b_jonas: because the second a symbol and a tarpit, though. he's not back for real, l is for life and still not overflow any buffers will be flushed anyway.
17:35:05 <fizzie> fungot: Now, is that CGI as in Common Gateway Interface, or as in computer-generated imagery, or something else?
17:35:05 <fungot> fizzie: but the possibility of using exceptions in another implementation
17:35:14 <b_jonas> so you're not back for real?
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17:47:49 <pikhq> fungot: we like you
17:47:49 <fungot> pikhq: well there is real work to be done by someone else?"
18:51:41 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Someone else * New user account
19:14:04 <b_jonas> zzo38: you know what I'd like in a browser? make the stop button terminate all network connections that the current tab initiates, including the ones that client-side scripts do.
19:15:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66691&oldid=66668 * Someone else * (+317)
19:35:15 <esowiki> [[A?!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66692 * Someone else * (+792) Created page with "A?! is a minimalistic programming language. All variables have alphanumeric names and boolean values and there are only 6 commands: A! - Negates the value of variable named..."
19:37:13 <esowiki> [[A?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66693&oldid=66692 * Someone else * (+60)
19:38:45 <esowiki> [[A?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66694&oldid=66693 * Someone else * (+16)
19:41:54 <esowiki> [[A?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66695&oldid=66694 * Someone else * (+62)
19:50:57 <b_jonas> hmm... says "There is a kind of beauty in simplicity and turing-completeness." to get our hopes up, then posts one of these languages that are not turing-complete, nor even missing turing-completeness in some interesting way
19:57:22 <int-e> appreciates art. not an artist.
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19:58:29 <b_jonas> int-e: "I am interested in esolangs and I find it to be a lot of fun to try and create simple and elegant languages."
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19:58:43 <b_jonas> yeah, I guess they do say "try"
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19:58:46 <lf94> is there a page on esolangs that says the different kinds of langs? by some category?
19:59:29 <zzo38> Yes there is categories in esolang wiki
20:05:56 <esowiki> [[A?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66696&oldid=66695 * Someone else * (+68)
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20:20:11 <esowiki> [[A?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66698&oldid=66697 * Someone else * (+2)
20:20:38 <esowiki> [[A?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66699&oldid=66698 * Someone else * (+9)
20:23:34 <int-e> this looks like a cute book: https://pbs.twimg.com/ext_tw_video_thumb/1184961738518814720/pu/img/vJw7QjCDvI09mCuw.jpg
20:26:37 <int-e> from https://mobile.twitter.com/JanelleCShane/status/1184951446212530178 ... oh there are videos, actually
22:10:28 <HackEso> 1/1:darknet//The darknet is a world-encompassing network of underground gopher services. Said services are paid for in plant roots and earthworms. \ uwe boll//Uwe Boll is the undefined behavior of cinematography. \ spämmer//Spämmers are advertisers of Spämmi, the delicious Finnish fish product. \ ĥäŝkéll//ĥäŝkéll is not what you were looking for. Try again. \ piet//Piet is a really colourful programming lang
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22:41:48 <zzo38> b_jonas: I agree; I want the stop function to stop everything.
22:59:52 <zzo38> Do you know what generation VIII stuff will be relevant for Pokemon mahjong?
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02:15:16 <HackEso> 1/2:`1//`1 <cmd> is equivalent to `` <cmd>, except that it splits the output into irc-sized pieces. The next pieces can be viewed with `spam. See also `2. Confusingly the obvious generalization of `4. \ dragon//Dragons are fractal creatures of magic, capable of shrinking or expanding to any size. Taneb invented them to live inside his string diagrams, but they prefer to hover around pinheads and feed on angels. \ dinosaur//Dinosaurs are
02:15:26 <HackEso> Piet is a really colourful programming language.
02:15:48 <shachaf> oerjan: That's interesting. Why did it get truncated above without a second page?
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05:06:10 <zzo38> They are adding support for generated columns into SQLite. That doesn't seem so useful to me, unless that feature can be used with virtual tables.
05:06:27 <zzo38> (Another feature that doesn't seems so useful to me is the EXCLUDE clause for window functions.)
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05:28:22 <zzo38> I invented a card game called "Curse of Scotland", with four players, either with or without teams. Give 13 cards to each player, and then whoever holds the nine of diamonds must reveal it so that everyone knows who holds it. He may either keep it, or give it to another player and ask for a card in exchange; he can specify the suit but not the rank of that card. Initially there is no trumps.
05:30:20 <zzo38> Tricks are then played as in whist, but you cannot play the nine of diamonds unless it is the only card you have or if you already have a trick (if you are required to play a diamond but have only the nine of diamonds and are not allowed to play it, then you must ignore the requirement to follow suit).
05:31:47 <zzo38> Once the nine of diamonds is won in a trick, then all players other than the player who won that trick scores one point per trick, and the player who won the trick with the nine of diamonds scores nothing. And then, reset trick counts to zero, gather all cards already played and redistribute them to all players.
05:32:56 <zzo38> Now the player who won the nine of diamonds, after examining his own cards, selects a new trump suit, or no trumps; it is not allowed to be the same as it just was. And then do the same with the nine of diamonds as at the start of the game, and the trump namer leads to the next trick.
05:33:59 <zzo38> (Note that many times, the players will keep many of the cards they were initially dealt while the other cards get mixed up and redistributed.)
05:36:56 <Hooloovo0> this sounds pretty similar to hearts, with the queen of spades
05:37:24 <Hooloovo0> though the knowledge of who has the important card isn't in hearts
05:38:04 <Hooloovo0> redistribution of cards could get... interesting
05:42:29 <zzo38> Some other clarifications: If you ask a card of a suit that they have none of, then they tell you and you must ask for a different suit. If you decide to keep the nine of diamonds, then you must name a suit that you have at least one card of (not counting the nine of diamonds); if teams are played, you might try to communicate information to your partner.
05:43:12 <zzo38> If teams are being played, only the tricks won by the player who has won the nine of diamonds don't count; his partner's tricks still do count toward the team's score.
05:50:10 <zzo38> Hooloovo0: I am not so sure that it is similar to hearts, although hearts is also played with each player thirteen cards and then playing tricks similar to whist, but with no trumps. In hearts, the hearts also count, but tricks not containing hearts or the queen of spades, do not count any points.
05:59:49 <Hooloovo0> a lot of the strategy in hearts, while keeping score, is to not get stuck with the queen
06:00:15 <Hooloovo0> though I agree that it is a very different game with trumps
06:08:52 <zzo38> Yes, that is true (unless you try to collect all of the hearts and queen of spades). (Also, I have seen a variant of scoring in hearts where the queen of spades is worth six instead of thirteen.)
06:10:47 <Hooloovo0> six points seems interesting since it makes the game less about the queen and more about the hearts
06:11:27 <Hooloovo0> I'll definitely suggest that next time I play hearts
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06:41:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Or]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66700&oldid=66678 * JonoCode9374 * (+287)
06:47:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Or]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66701&oldid=66700 * JonoCode9374 * (+334)
06:48:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Or]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66702&oldid=66701 * JonoCode9374 * (+128) I forgot my signature
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10:00:56 <b_jonas> wait what? how does that work?
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15:35:58 <b_jonas> `perl -eprint(175 * ($lb = 0.4536))
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18:23:12 <kspalaiologos> I'm working on solving Project Euler challenges in Brainfuck
18:31:52 <kmc> b_jonas: um, you realize what channel you're in?
18:36:30 <int-e> b_jonas: itym insane
18:36:43 <int-e> or possibly terrifying
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19:26:33 <lambdabot> geheimdienst says: data Stereoloid = BanachTyvski | CoBanachTyvski
19:26:40 <lambdabot> geheimdienst says: data Stereoloid = BanachTyvski | CoBanachTyvski
19:26:59 <oerjan> someone may have been deleting
19:27:09 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Just what do you think you're doing Dave?
19:27:39 <lambdabot> geheimdienst says: data Stereoloid = BanachTyvski | CoBanachTyvski
19:45:21 <oerjan> <kspalaiologos> by the way, what is sub-lime? <-- a pun on the esolang wiki logo that got way out of hand a few years ago
19:46:09 <oerjan> (i put it in the channel welcome message, then someone started overdoing it)
19:48:40 <lambdabot> monochrom says: Welcome to #haskell, where your questions are answered in contrapuntal fugues.
19:49:02 <int-e> oerjan: we have this upgrade of Cale's classical stereo quote
19:49:04 <oerjan> that's a similar quote to the one i tried to look up, yes
19:49:27 <int-e> "Welcome to #haskell where your questions are answered in majestic stereo."
19:49:50 <oerjan> i couldn't remember the majestic
19:49:50 <int-e> (probably with a comma in the appropriate place)
19:51:01 <int-e> In unrelated news, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVmp0uGtShk is painful to watch.
19:51:54 <int-e> (I kept focusing on the pinky finger.)
19:53:22 * oerjan decides to try not watching it
19:54:58 <int-e> context (less painful): https://mobile.twitter.com/LakeBrenden/status/1184967457305432066
19:57:12 <oerjan> i was about to shout at you for linking the mobile version, but frankly it looks way less annoying than the usual
20:00:16 <int-e> oerjan: The funny thing is that I'm on a desktop PC. But without JS, Twitter redirects me to the mobile version. (I'd have to disable <noscript> to prevent that.)
20:00:53 <zzo38> I think the desktop version of Twitter does not work without JS anyways, so it is correct to redirect you to the mobile version.
20:01:15 <shachaf> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCuW4A57jac is antipainful to watch.
20:01:47 <int-e> it depends on what you mean by "work"... you see the message, a few related ones, you can click links
20:01:57 <int-e> the main thing that breaks is the infinite scrolling dark pattern
20:04:13 <HackEso> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
20:04:55 <oerjan> oh it's live, that explains the lack of movement
20:05:37 <int-e> attempted cat is punishable by up to 3 years in prison.
20:05:42 <shachaf> You can rewind to moments with more movement.
20:07:26 <shachaf> kittens are the best thing in the universe
20:08:29 <esowiki> [[Iavac]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66703 * FireCubez * (+3127) Created page with "'''Idvac''' is a language created by [[User:FireCubez]]. Idvac stands for '''I'''ncrement and '''d'''ecrement '''v'''alues '''a'''nd '''c'''ompare. It is an [[OISC]]. Since th..."
20:08:56 <int-e> shachaf: do you have any good recipes?
20:09:04 <esowiki> [[Idvac]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66704 * FireCubez * (+3127) Created page with "'''Idvac''' is a language created by [[User:FireCubez]]. Idvac stands for '''I'''ncrement and '''d'''ecrement '''v'''alues '''a'''nd '''c'''ompare. It is an [[OISC]]. Since th..."
20:09:18 <HackEso> e form a clean fat. Cool completely; or thickened. Pour over the \ cream of the flour. \ \ Start ends of pan, and boil the milk into the center of container. Cook for a few minutes, or until \ toothpicks then lightly browned. Cool approximately 10 minutes, about 1 hour. \ \ Remove and leave for 5 minutes. Pour over the broccoli. Combine the olive oil, and soy sauce. \ Stir into the bowl and stir often dough from the melted butter. Add
20:10:06 <int-e> Oh, Idvac, Iavac. Hmm.
20:10:18 <esowiki> [[Iavac]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66705&oldid=66703 * FireCubez * (-3127) Blanked the page
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20:11:24 <int-e> kitten on lightly browned toothpicks.
20:12:01 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Iavac]]": Author request: content before blanking was: "'''Idvac''' is a language created by [[User:FireCubez]]. Idvac stands for '''I'''ncrement and '''d'''ecrement '''v'''alues '''a'''nd '''c'''ompare. It is an [[OISC]]. Since the language only has one instruction by nature..."
20:12:42 <int-e> I wonder which side is worse... the culinary side or the animal cruelty one.
20:18:08 <oerjan> i vaguely think customarily the toothpicks are used to test whether the meat is done?
20:18:29 <oerjan> which doesn't answer the question.
20:18:58 <oerjan> or is it whether bread is done...
20:21:55 <oerjan> hm google suggests it's for baking but also mentions a strange usage for chicken breasts
20:22:26 <int-e> I guess for meat you want to squeeze it a little which is hard with a single pick
20:22:43 <oerjan> stuffed chicken breasts, that is
20:22:59 <int-e> stuffed with dough?
20:24:36 <oerjan> the toothpicks weren't for testing but for fastening
20:30:51 <b_jonas> oerjan: no, toothpicks are used to test if the cake is done, because the pastry is sticky and sticks to wood when it's raw but not sticky anymore when it's baked properly
20:31:52 <b_jonas> I don't think it's used to check if meat is done, but it is sometimes used to stabilize for fastening stuffed chicken combos, like chicken wrapped into bacon with some soft filling, but more usually metal pegs are used for that
20:32:37 <oerjan> hellonas. i think i have solved the mcculloch 2nd machine mortality problem.
20:35:26 <oerjan> i made a gruesome hack in my haskell simulator to fake the algebra i needed, and then the remaining cases were easy to solve.
20:36:31 <oerjan> assuming i made no mistakes
20:42:47 <LKoen> how do you mean "fake the algebra"?
20:44:41 <oerjan> i define a=100, b=10000, c=1000000 etc. and calculate the resulting sums/differences, then split up again assuming no resulting coefficients are >=50.
20:46:35 <oerjan> P $ bigTest 1 (MS [] F[a]F[b,c] )
20:46:49 <oerjan> ^ sample input and output
20:47:42 <oerjan> that thing printed as c+a-1 is actually 1000099
20:50:26 <oerjan> this is a compact representation of, say, 5 2^(a+1) 5 2^(b+1) 4 2^c turning into 5 2^(b+1) 4 2^(c+a) 5 2^(b+1) 4 2^(c+1), approximately (the representation ignores even numbers of 4s)
20:51:11 <oerjan> um wait 2^c at the end
20:53:25 <oerjan> it takes care of strings with exactly two 5s and no 3s, which happen to be by far the most complicated
20:54:56 <oerjan> except now i have an explicit list of all the mortal patterns of such
20:55:55 <oerjan> 22 of them, a few containing a variable x
20:56:27 <int-e> it's the final countdown...
20:56:30 <oerjan> e.g. F[x]F[0], representing 5 2^(x+1) 5
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20:58:20 <oerjan> up to F[0,0,0]B[0], representing 5 2 4 2 4 2 54
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20:59:45 <oerjan> actually that's only the mortals at a particular stage. the algorithm requires winding forward to it.
21:00:46 <oerjan> in particular, the points when the string starts with 5 (again ignoring 4s which may appear a bit out of order)
21:02:43 <oerjan> other stuff noted: the string 35555555555552555555555555 blows up exponentially for two steps in a row. i think this may be optimal.
21:03:59 <oerjan> (well, add more 5s to taste)
21:04:46 <oerjan> actually the last half could contain 3s too, then the string actually survives
21:05:05 <oerjan> but doesn't continue to grow as fast
21:07:29 <b_jonas> you want a string the grows quickly in just a few evaluation steps?
21:08:02 <oerjan> well it was one thing that came up
21:09:23 <oerjan> because i had to prove that every string either dies, gets to a point where it's obviously growing indefinitely, or gets into the "exactly two digits are 3 or 5 (and they're equal)" options
21:09:47 <oerjan> (and this actually happens within length(S) steps)
21:10:24 <oerjan> and this quickly expanding string is one corner case
21:11:57 <oerjan> correction: it gets to a state where it'll obviously die. the actual end might come much later, e.g. if you start with something like 555555555522
21:13:19 <b_jonas> I don't think I can help in the subject matter here, but I'd like to add that I find this a nice way to honor the memory of Smullyan
21:14:10 <oerjan> basically you count maximal substrings of the form [345]* that are not all 4s
21:15:00 <oerjan> if there are >= 3 of them, it's immortal, if there are <=1, it's mortal, if there are 2 you may have to wind forward up to length(S) steps to separate the cases
21:17:03 <b_jonas> so maximal substrings of the form 4*[35][345]*
21:20:49 <oerjan> first you wind forward to the step where one of those substrings "runs"
21:25:02 <b_jonas> the first one or the last one, before that you burn some of the 4s and 2s from the ends
21:26:43 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Andrewarchi * New user account
21:27:29 <b_jonas> do you think we should be sad that the hint file for the IOCCC underload interpreter doesn't link to the esowiki? or happy instead?
21:28:56 <oerjan> hm you think that would have been enough to DOS the wiki? otherwise a bit sad...
21:29:07 <b_jonas> I don't think it would have DOSed
21:29:31 <b_jonas> it would have brought in interested people, but I don't know if it's the good sort of interesting people or the bad sort
21:30:20 <oerjan> it would also have brought in people interested in something other than brainfuck derivatives :P
21:33:05 <oerjan> continuing the mcculloch algorithm: if it's still undecided in the next step, you have two substrings that both contain more than one 3 or 5, and in fact an equal pattern of them. (but 4s may differ.) so wind forward again until one of those runs. that must decide _except_ in the 4*3(4*5)+4* 2 4*3(4*5)+4* case, which gets to run a single extra step.
21:33:37 <b_jonas> what happens if they're not equal patterns?
21:33:53 <oerjan> they cannot be non-equal patterns at that point
21:34:18 <oerjan> that's because they're both produced from the same original substring
21:34:18 <b_jonas> you could start from an unequal pattern
21:34:28 <b_jonas> with no reduction steps at the start
21:34:59 <oerjan> by "the next step" i mean the next step after the first winding forward i described
21:35:18 <b_jonas> oh, so you always wind through the first duplication executing?
21:35:18 <oerjan> at that point the patterns cannot be non-equal if there are still two substrings
21:35:40 <b_jonas> and if there were three such parts, then it's an immortal string
21:35:57 <oerjan> well unless you can decide already at the start that it's in one of the cases
21:36:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66706&oldid=66691 * Andrewarchi * (+265) /* Introductions */
21:38:18 <b_jonas> so can you decide all the cases when there are no 3s anywhere?
21:38:37 <b_jonas> that is, ones similar to 5252
21:38:42 <oerjan> also you could sometimes stop a little earlier by noting that "two substrings both containing at least one 3" is immortal, but i wanted to see if that has to resolve later to either more substrings or exactly two 3s
21:38:49 <b_jonas> still two sequences with 5s
21:39:24 <b_jonas> "an optimizing compiler for Whitespace" hmm
21:41:35 <oerjan> a string with no 3s and exactly two 5s separated by at least one 2 is the remaining case.
21:42:09 <b_jonas> because if there are 3s, then it is immortal?
21:42:24 <b_jonas> makes sense, it like has a 323 in it
21:45:40 <oerjan> it can be analyzed as something like ((44)*2)*((44)*42((44)*2)*)* 4*54*2 ((44)*2)*((44)*42((44)*2)*)* 4*54* ((2(44)*)*24(44)*)*(2(44)*)*
21:46:53 <oerjan> where (44)* is just NOP noise, essentially
21:47:44 <b_jonas> yes, the 44s can be ignored
21:50:41 <oerjan> if you apply "44" -> "", "45" -> "54", that becomes canonically 2*(42 2*)* 54? 2*(42 2*)* 54? (2* 24)*2*
21:51:03 <b_jonas> wait, why is 45 |> 54 fine?
21:51:27 <oerjan> the effect of 4 commutes with both 3 and 5
21:52:50 <oerjan> now you can turn that into a compressed format [...]f[...]f[...] for a strange register machine
21:53:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:HaPyLi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66707 * Andrewarchi * (+138) Created page with "The HaPyLi website is now defunct and the compiler and example programs were not archived. Does anyone have a copy of the HaPyLi compiler?"
21:53:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:HaPyLi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66708&oldid=66707 * Andrewarchi * (+95)
21:54:07 <oerjan> start with [, then 2* -> count number of 2s, 42 -> comma, 54 -> ]B[, 5 -> ]F[ and finish with a ]
21:54:51 <b_jonas> B for back, F for forwards
21:54:58 <b_jonas> and there's always exactly two letters
21:59:20 <oerjan> there are some extra 2s in that regex. what they amount to is that sequences of 2* _other_ than at the very ends of the string give one less number. if i didn't do that i'd need a rule that said 0 is only allowed at the very end elements, which makes the resulting register machine less elegant i think.
21:59:37 <oerjan> *give a number one smaller
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22:02:59 <oerjan> one quirk in the notation, i often don't write [0] at the very beginning.
22:03:18 <oerjan> so [0]F[0]F[0] = F[0]F[0].
22:03:30 <oerjan> (it's an empty string anyway.)
22:06:18 <oerjan> and now we can translate the mcculloch rules into this format. (a) if the first number is _not_ 0, decrement it. (3) If it starts [0, then remove 0, and reverse the machine (lists and flags, but not multidigit numbers if there are any).
22:06:55 <oerjan> (4) if it starts [0], it's a bit more complicated.
22:07:17 <b_jonas> wait, how od you reverse it?
22:07:25 <b_jonas> don't you have to do something tricky to reverse?
22:07:38 <oerjan> [0,1]F[2,3] -> [3,2]F[1]
22:08:05 <b_jonas> but it's not supposed to be symmetric
22:08:17 <oerjan> it actually is symmetric
22:08:18 <b_jonas> because the comma stands for a 42 in the McCulloch machine
22:08:34 <oerjan> i corrected that afterwards
22:08:44 <b_jonas> it can stand for either? and it doesn't matter somehow?
22:10:32 <oerjan> oh my canonic form has an error. should be 2*(42 2*)* 54? 2 2*(42 2*)* 54? (2* 24)*2*
22:11:06 <oerjan> note how the parts before the first 5 and after the last 5 _are_ symmetric.
22:11:56 <b_jonas> the patterns are symmetric
22:12:05 <oerjan> now consider the part in between, 2*(42 2*)*. its mirror is (2* 24)*2*
22:12:32 <b_jonas> but I don't see why the specific possible values reverse without changing semantisc
22:12:45 <oerjan> * now consider the part in between, 2 2*(42 2*)*. its mirror is (2* 24)*2* 2
22:14:27 <oerjan> interestingly, they are equivalent - they give the _same_ splitting into numbers and commas
22:15:14 <b_jonas> because there's always an extra 2 everywhere that you don't count?
22:15:24 <b_jonas> but then it's not just 42 or 24 being the same
22:15:38 <b_jonas> you take an extra 2 from different ends of the section
22:15:41 <b_jonas> that's what compensates for it
22:15:43 <oerjan> well the single 2s are supposed to be discarded
22:16:42 <oerjan> maybe i should have written it as "4 2" and "2 4" and said 4 -> comma
22:20:23 <oerjan> anyway, reversing works. Now if you have [0]B[...]f[...], turn that into F + reverse([...]f[...]), which is not _strictly_ speaking a valid single mcmulloch step but which cuts the number of cases to analyze in half.
22:20:56 <oerjan> it's the equivalence 542 ++ X ~~ 52 ++ reverse(X)
22:22:21 <oerjan> now we have got to the form [0]F[...]f[...] which is what i consider the beginning of a "big step" in this machine, and what i made tables of.
22:22:31 <oerjan> (and dropping the [0])
22:22:44 <b_jonas> how did you get to where it's always [0] in the end?
22:23:10 <oerjan> i suppose i haven't explained that yet.
22:23:59 <oerjan> it's what happens when you repeat rule (1) and (3).
22:24:33 <oerjan> any initial number gets reduced to 0, then removed unless it's in [0].
22:24:51 <b_jonas> so you eat away the 2s, and reverse the part after the first letter by the forwards-backwards step
22:24:57 <b_jonas> but why is the first letter always F?
22:26:00 <b_jonas> or wait, what was the forward-backward step?
22:26:13 <b_jonas> that was the forward-backward step
22:26:27 <b_jonas> the normal reversing when you drop a comma is just a forward step
22:27:07 <b_jonas> how does rule (3) work? does that also do a forward-backward?
22:27:29 <b_jonas> I don't get how rule (3) works
22:27:45 <oerjan> (3) If it starts [0, then remove 0, and reverse the machine (lists and flags, but not multidigit numbers if there are any).
22:27:46 <b_jonas> oh, you have to reverse the entire machine then
22:28:07 <b_jonas> like, remove the 0, and then reverse the entire machine
22:29:54 <oerjan> the [0]B[...]f[...] thing is something different, which also does a reversal.
22:30:03 <oerjan> but only of the part after B.
22:30:41 <b_jonas> right, so eventually you eat away enough 2s and 4 from the ends that you get a 5 at the very start of the string
22:30:42 <oerjan> corresponding to the fact m(542 + X) = m(52 + reverse(X))
22:31:07 <b_jonas> and until that, the string is only reduced in length
22:32:14 <oerjan> so it remains to say what happens to F[...]f[...]
22:33:17 <oerjan> or F[a,...]f[...,z], to single out the two most important elements.
22:33:52 <oerjan> if a+z>0, this becomes [a,...]f[...,z+a-1,...]f[...,z]
22:35:09 <oerjan> basically, when you concatenate two copies of the string corresponding to [a,...]f[...,z], the 2s representing a and the 2s representing z become connected.
22:35:48 <oerjan> but they also move from the outermost spots, where all 2s count, to inside, where one is subtracted.
22:35:58 <oerjan> so it gives the number z+a-1.
22:36:53 <oerjan> so this is the point where there is actual string growth.
22:37:31 <b_jonas> the number a means that there are a+1 copies of 2 next to each other there; z means that there are z+1 copies
22:37:49 <oerjan> sorry, the conclusion is right but slightly off
22:37:50 <b_jonas> one gets dropped from the evaluation rule, so that's a+z+1 total, so the number should become a+z
22:38:01 <oerjan> z means that there are z copies. it's at the very end.
22:38:47 <b_jonas> ok, I'm probably too tired to make sure that this counting works
22:38:53 <oerjan> a initially means that there are a+1 2s. but one of them follows a 5, and gets used up by it.
22:39:05 <oerjan> ok we can continue later.
22:39:08 <b_jonas> yes, one gets used up by the evaluation rule
22:39:37 <b_jonas> I'm just not sure how the representation works and why there isn't an extra one at the end
22:40:12 <oerjan> afterwards, there are a 2s that are now at the very beginning, where they count fully.
22:42:32 <oerjan> dammit. now i'm starting to wonder if i've messed up this at the [0]B point.
22:43:16 <oerjan> _that_ reversal may not work with this system.
22:43:40 <oerjan> Sic transit gloria mundi
22:44:03 <b_jonas> well this is still probably a good start to analyze this
22:44:16 <oerjan> there had to be something. oh well. the basic idea should still be sound.
22:45:19 <b_jonas> as in, two 5s and no 3s is indeed the hard case
22:45:21 <int-e> Ah, so there are cycles of arbitrary length :)
22:45:26 <b_jonas> and ignoring the 44s is correct
22:45:36 <oerjan> no, maybe it was right after all
22:45:55 <oerjan> i need to check an example.
22:46:40 <int-e> starting from 32^n3 for length n... boring in retrospect
22:47:08 <oerjan> 542 24222522 ~ 52 22522242
22:47:53 <oerjan> B[1,2]F[2] ~ F[2]F[2,1]
22:55:01 <oerjan> you could say that when you remove an F or a B from the beginning you remove 52 or 542, which gives the a the same representation as at the end of a machine, so you can move it to the beginning or reverse it.
22:58:09 <oerjan> the case where a+z==0 is special. it corresponds to _no_ 2s in their end-of-machine representation, so when they are fused together the 4s or 5s at either side get fused together.
22:59:59 <oerjan> for the case F[0]f[0] it dies, yes, because then the two 5s are what get fused
23:00:19 <b_jonas> but it could have more numbers?
23:01:04 <oerjan> but for F[0,b]f[0], say, what happens is -> [0,b]f[0+0-1,b]f[0] -> [0,b]flip(f)[b]f[0]
23:01:30 <oerjan> the f (5 or 54) on one side gets fused with the 4, flipping it
23:02:14 <oerjan> (Also F[0]F[0] and F[0]B[0] are the only immediately dying states)
23:02:29 <oerjan> or well, nearly immediately
23:03:12 <oerjan> 525 -> 55 and 5254 -> 5454
23:09:17 <oerjan> to sum up, for a configuration F[a,...]f[...,z] you can get to the next F[...]f[...] state, and the only branching in the calculation is on whether a+z==0.
23:12:22 <oerjan> this means that it makes sense to group configurations by the length of the sublists. e.g. F[0]F[0] is an F1F1 configuration.
23:13:34 <oerjan> and for a given a+z==0 choice, you can calculate the next "big step" up to list lengths as well.
23:14:08 <oerjan> F1F1 with a+z==0 => RIP, with a+z>0 => F1F1 (self-loop)
23:17:25 <oerjan> Consider F m f n --> F o f p. It turns out that (1) m+n>=9 => max(o,p)>=6 (2) max(m,n)>=6 => o+p>=9. This means that all those configurations are immortal, and was my first big cutting down of cases.
23:19:03 <oerjan> (from infinite to finite, afa length configurations go)
23:21:00 <oerjan> the remaining 88 cases took a bit more work :P
23:27:24 <oerjan> although with the entire table fille in, it turns out max(m,n)>=4 is enough to ensure immortality.
23:38:40 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: That's interesting. Why did it get truncated above without a second page? <-- because HackEso got a verbose cloak hth
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23:39:20 <b_jonas> a tax to freenode of a dozen character per line
23:40:05 <fizzie> Oh, I forgot to take care of that. :/
23:40:23 <b_jonas> I think it's payed automatically
23:40:26 <b_jonas> the server takes care of it
23:40:39 <fizzie> Well, as in, make sure all the automated splitting uses the right thresholds.
23:41:32 <fizzie> I think ultimately it's done by distort.
23:42:27 <fizzie> sport puts the data into spout and then calls distort and passes the results to spore, which of course is a wrapper around spam.
23:42:39 <b_jonas> ok, I don't know how all those work
23:43:08 <fizzie> HackE[gs]o commands are kind of ridiculous.
23:54:18 * pikhq is for some reason in an Agora mood again
23:55:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:McCulloch's second machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66709 * B jonas * (+151) Created page with "Work in progress: [[User:Oerjan]] [https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-10-19.html#lIc is trying to create the algorithm] to determine if a number is mortal."
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01:42:34 <zzo38> The PostScript documentation actually specifically says that 1/72 inch (which is the default measurement units for PostScript) isn't the same as a point. (It doesn't say how much a point actually is, but I think a point is 1/72.27 inch.)
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04:49:05 <zzo38> Now the transcript function is implemented in the implementation of Z-machine with PostScript.
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06:37:59 <zzo38> Do you like "Curse of Scotland" card game I mentioned earlier?
06:38:16 <zzo38> You can also suggest alterations if you think to improve it a bit
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08:17:48 <esowiki> [[Shishkirism]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66710&oldid=60000 * Kamish * (-2683)
08:19:05 <esowiki> [[Shishkirism]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66711&oldid=66710 * Kamish * (+0)
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08:22:23 <esowiki> [[Shishkirism]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66712&oldid=66711 * Kamish * (+0)
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09:02:13 <izabera> some time ago i found a paper on arxiv that described a new computing model that more closely reflects modern hardware with caches
09:02:20 <izabera> in which not all memory accesses take the same amount of time and in which thrashing is O(terrible)
09:02:26 <izabera> please help me find it again
09:09:44 <izabera> and like, heap sort turned out to be O(n log^2(n))
09:10:35 <esowiki> [[Kleinfunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66713&oldid=66204 * YamTokTpaFa * (+10) See CAT.
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09:20:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:QUOTE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66714 * YamTokTpaFa * (+1373) Created page with "== List of available captures == *[https://web.archive.org/web/20040805182316/http://phat.woided.com/quote/index.php?MODE=SHOW&PAGE=Command+List Command List] *[https://web.ar..."
09:28:46 <esowiki> [[Snigl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66715&oldid=59710 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) HOW DARE YOU NOT TO ADD CATEGORIES!
09:30:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Introduction to esolang design/Data models]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66716 * YamTokTpaFa * (+126) Created page with "== Is this page necessary? == --~~~~"
09:31:01 <esowiki> [[Haddock2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66717&oldid=54541 * YamTokTpaFa * (+19) Adding year
09:31:50 <esowiki> [[BIO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66718&oldid=34576 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) Don't forget Category:Languages
09:33:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:String-rewriting paradigm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66719 * YamTokTpaFa * (+163) Created page with "==Suggestion:Renaming to "String-rewriting paradigm (Language)"?== --~~~~"
09:34:24 <esowiki> [[Numberwang/Implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66720&oldid=57917 * YamTokTpaFa * (+30) HOW DARE YOU NOT TO ADD CATEGORIES!
09:35:03 <esowiki> [[Stck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66721&oldid=63001 * YamTokTpaFa * (+23) Don't forget Category:Languages
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10:39:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cherryblossom * New user account
10:44:58 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66722&oldid=66706 * Cherryblossom * (+341)
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11:19:03 <esowiki> [[+-]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66723&oldid=66033 * Cherryblossom * (+75) /* Interpreters */
11:20:47 <esowiki> [[User:Cherryblossom]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66724 * Cherryblossom * (+0) Created blank page
11:20:57 <esowiki> [[User talk:Cherryblossom]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66725 * Cherryblossom * (+0) Created blank page
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11:51:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Or]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66726&oldid=66702 * A * (+257)
11:52:48 <b_jonas> I wonder if it would be possible to copyright-wash photos or drawings or paintings by showing them in a television program and then allowing everyone to copy the television program.
11:54:10 <b_jonas> someone should do that for the Atomium in particular
11:54:18 <b_jonas> (yes, I know that's not a painting)
11:54:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Or]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66727&oldid=66726 * A * (+246)
11:55:05 <b_jonas> https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/announcing-unsanctioned-2019-10-10 wait what? another M:tG un-set?
11:55:16 <b_jonas> "Announcing Unsanctioned, the preconstructed silver-bordered experience coming February 29, 2020. Unsanctioned contains five combinable 30-card, silver-bordered decks for wacky Un- fun."
11:55:39 <b_jonas> "The set contains sixteen brand-new Un- cards to trip your Un- trigger, plus the reprinting of beloved Un- cards from previous Un- sets." ah. only 16 new cards. that's the trick.
11:55:45 <b_jonas> so it's just an Unstable reprint
11:56:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:Or]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66728&oldid=66727 * A * (+316)
11:58:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Or]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66729&oldid=66728 * A * (+331)
12:00:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Or]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66730&oldid=66729 * A * (+227)
12:02:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:Or]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66731&oldid=66730 * A * (-659)
12:07:58 <esowiki> [[Or]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66732&oldid=43203 * A * (+248)
12:09:01 <esowiki> [[Or]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66733&oldid=66732 * A * (+81)
12:12:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Or]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66734&oldid=66731 * A * (+394) /* Is Or really stack-based? */ new section
12:14:16 <esowiki> [[UserScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66735 * A * (+196) Created page with "[[UserScript]] is a [[Joke_language_list|Joke Language]] that outputs how long a CGCC submission is. [[Category:Joke languages]] [[Category:Languages]] Category:Unimplemente..."
12:18:50 <esowiki> [[UserScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66736&oldid=66735 * A * (+1684)
12:19:15 <esowiki> [[UserScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66737&oldid=66736 * A * (-1)
12:23:55 <b_jonas> nah, it probably wouldn't work, the lawyers would find an interpretation of the law that doesn't allow that, per https://www.xkcd.com/1494/
12:27:50 <esowiki> [[Or]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66738&oldid=66733 * A * (+183) /* Example program */
12:28:13 <esowiki> [[Or]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66739&oldid=66738 * A * (-6) /* Implementation */
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14:08:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:Or]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66740&oldid=66734 * Areallycoolusername * (+578)
14:22:34 <esowiki> [[MyOwnLanguage]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66741 * A * (+506) Created page with "[[MyOwnLanguage]] is an [[esoteric programming language]] invented by CGCC User [https://codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/users/3191/ilmari-karonen Ilmari Karonen] in the [stan..."
14:32:48 <esowiki> [[MyOwnLanguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66742&oldid=66741 * A * (-1) It would be great if this wiki supports Markdown.
14:38:04 <esowiki> [[Or]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66743&oldid=66739 * A * (+14)
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17:44:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:McCulloch's second machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66744&oldid=66709 * Oerjan * (+47) Unsigned
18:15:29 <oerjan> <b_jonas> so it's just an Unstable reprint <-- . o O ( would you say it's Unremarkable )
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19:14:05 <b_jonas> fungot, can you sing 99 bottles of beer? it has a lot of repeating n-grams, so it should be easy for you to learn
19:14:05 <fungot> b_jonas: i got that right! silly me
19:19:59 <int-e> . o O ( What's an iversity? )
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19:22:07 <b_jonas> int-e: it's when lots of ifferent types of items are available
19:22:19 * int-e is completely Unashamed.
19:26:48 <b_jonas> what is fungot's favourite fruit for the purposes of uncarbonated fruit juice?
19:26:48 <fungot> b_jonas: but that's the idea.) are created before those variables are defined
19:30:11 <oerjan> i forgot one case in what i explained yesterday, F[0,b...]f[...y,0] where there is more than one element in both lists
19:30:57 <oerjan> in that case it's the 4s on each side that merge, and cancel. the result is [0,b...]f[...y+b...]f[...y,0] .
19:31:32 <oerjan> * the result is [0,b...]f[...y+b+1...]f[...y,0] .
19:32:45 <oerjan> it's +1 this because both representations have that extra 2, one becoming redundant.
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19:59:36 <imode> https://repl.it/repls/FloweryShyCategory
19:59:49 <imode> if I head into preamble.h and change my queue size to something that isn't a power of 2, nothing works.
20:00:58 <imode> I've checked the generated source. it seems.. fine.
20:02:09 <imode> head = (head + 1) % 253;
20:03:19 <imode> there should be some kind of wraparound.
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20:07:46 <fizzie> imode: The subtraction looks a little dubious. Since these are unsigned types, if you go below zero before the modulo operation, it first wraps around by a power of 2 before applying the modulo.
20:08:40 <imode> yeah, I intend to have it hit all 1's before applying the modulo. this way even if it's going out of bounds by wrapping around, I can coerce it back in bounds.
20:09:40 <fizzie> That doesn't sound right.
20:10:04 <fizzie> With % 253, I assume you'd want it to wrap from 0 to 252 when decrementing.
20:10:31 <fizzie> But all-ones % N is not N-1 when N is not a power of two.
20:11:02 <imode> right. that's what I intend on doing. but if I decrement, I wrap back around from 0 to whatever the max value of an unsigned long is on my platform, and then modulo.
20:11:41 <imode> I'm getting 235 instead of the expected 252.
20:11:54 <fizzie> Well, because 18446744073709551615 % 253 *is* 235.
20:13:09 <imode> you ever have one of those days where you say "it has to work that way because X Y Z" and then you realize that that's a bold-faced lie.
20:13:22 <imode> that's what I just encountered. it's a decrement. I can just set it to queue-size.
20:13:44 <imode> because you're right, that's totally bonkers. it's not truncating to fit the queue size, it's repeatedly wrapping around. wrong fucking behavior.
20:13:57 <fizzie> Well, you can also decrement by adding (queue_size - 1).
20:14:04 <imode> I probably used that in the previous version as a shortcut.
20:14:31 <imode> because I always relied on it being a power of 2.
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20:14:47 <imode> due to that modulo_size being %(1<<16) initially. thanks for that.
20:16:43 <b_jonas> yeah, ^ on integers returns a float
20:17:08 <int-e> Yes, only powers of 2 divide 2^64... as long as they aren't too large.
20:17:31 <imode> this is a case of "I'm smart at one point but dumb at another."
20:20:00 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint((1<<64)%235)
20:26:37 <imode> there we are, works properly now. thanks.
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20:37:58 <zzo38> I thought I should make a Magic: the Gathering card called "Leper Window", but am unsure what its effect should be.
21:16:39 <int-e> Wither the hand of the player if they don't use card sleeves?
21:28:17 <b_jonas> int-e: that won't work. see the flavor text of Farewell to Arms
21:30:10 <b_jonas> though you could make each card in their hand gain wither until end of turn
21:30:49 <int-e> They foresaw my idea and stole it...
21:35:49 <HackEso> Foresee \ 3U \ Sorcery \ Scry 4, then draw two cards. (To scry 4, look at the top four cards of your library, then put any number of them on the bottom of your library and the rest on top in any order.) \ FUT-C, M11-C
22:33:33 <b_jonas> int-e: would the wither ability work on the battlefield only? or also in the hand? or even while drafting?
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22:52:17 <zzo38> Wither works from any zone
22:52:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, but this isn't plain wither, it's a conditional thing
22:52:46 <b_jonas> it applies only when the object isn't sealed
22:52:58 <zzo38> (although unless you have the possibility for cards in your hand to deal damage while they are still in your hand, it won't do anything)
22:53:16 <zzo38> (I think most cards only deal damage from the stack or battlefield)
22:53:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: we do have some cards that deal damage when you discard them from your hand
22:54:57 <HackEso> Arashi, the Sky Asunder \ 3GG \ Legendary Creature -- Spirit \ 5/5 \ {X}{G}, {T}: Arashi, the Sky Asunder deals X damage to target creature with flying. \ Channel -- {X}{G}{G}, Discard Arashi: Arashi deals X damage to each creature with flying. \ SOK-R
22:55:17 <b_jonas> or does that ability deal damage from the graveyard?
22:55:29 <b_jonas> I don't remember how that works, I think it might be from the graveyard
23:01:51 <arseniiv> . o O ( card-by-value and card-by-need )
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23:11:32 <zzo38> The rules about that doesn't seem to be very clear, I think
23:19:07 <zzo38> A leper window is a window in some old churches so that people outside (such as lepers) could see the church service.
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01:14:33 <ornxka> new esolang idea: c but with bash scoping
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02:44:34 <zzo38> How will that work?
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03:53:25 <ornxka> all variables have global scope :p and are defined as NULL until you assign to them (which you may do without declaring them)
03:54:35 <ornxka> you could also introduce the local keyword which introduces a new global scope for your function (so if you declare FOO as "local" in a function, then call another function which accesses FOO, it will access the local FOO of the function that called it)
03:55:06 <ornxka> at least i think thats how bash scoping works
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11:28:31 <wib_jonas> Newly created dogs come from dog shelters, so we should replace the stork mythology by one that says that babies come from human shelters.
11:31:15 <myname> that sounds like you need a talk about how dogs are created
11:34:16 <wib_jonas> from little dogs growing up, usually
11:40:22 <myname> so they just spawn out of atoms?
11:40:40 <fizzie> AIUI, first you have a little dog, then at level 4 it becomes a dog, then at level 6 it becomes a large dog.
11:41:11 <myname> that sounds wrong. i would expect a large dog at level 8 or later
11:44:02 <fizzie> MON("large dog", S_DOG, LVL(6, 15, 4, 0, 0), ...)
11:50:42 <Lykaina> i thought that, like how humans come from the stork, doggies come from the squirrel
11:51:26 <myname> where do storks come from, though?
11:52:37 <wib_jonas> stork come from stork nests that are built on top of chimneys by other storks
11:53:26 <Lykaina> oh, so now we're bringing reality into this?
11:54:54 <wib_jonas> there's a dog right here that came from dog shelters
11:58:01 <myname> i would assume that this is not the usual way of creation of new dogs
11:58:29 <Lykaina> the catholic church is pro "birth control" when it comes to dogs and cats.
12:00:14 <Lykaina> and against it when it comes to humans, iirc
12:01:00 <myname> of course, because humans are designed to be god-like, dogs clearly are not
12:01:50 <wib_jonas> Lykaina: that's not, in itself, inconsistent. we know experimentally that there are much more new dogs created than how much people want to adopt, but fewer children up for adoption than people want.
12:02:13 <Lykaina> humans are meant to be fruitful and multiply like rabbits
12:02:46 <Lykaina> according to my memory of the book of genesis
12:03:13 <myname> wib_jonas: is that so?
12:03:23 <Lykaina> and monty python's sperm song
13:02:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Or]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66745&oldid=66740 * A * (-15)
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13:29:13 <wib_jonas> you won't wait three weeks to post the next o strip again, right, fungot? in fact, you can post the next one soon.
13:29:13 <fungot> wib_jonas: obviously you can't use your macro language inside scheme code)
13:35:31 <esowiki> [[Iavac]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66746 * A * (+3127) Created page with "'''Idvac''' is a language created by [[User:FireCubez]]. Idvac stands for '''I'''ncrement and '''d'''ecrement '''v'''alues '''a'''nd '''c'''ompare. It is an [[OISC]]. Since th..."
13:37:09 <myname> shoudln't it be named Iadvac? and the title has a typo
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16:11:07 <esowiki> [[Headshot!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66747&oldid=60342 * CrazySqueak * (-26) Fixed a mistake describing the state of the iteration/conditional commands.
16:25:02 <zzo38> Is this a suitable way to initialize the random number generator in PostScript? (%Calendar%) /IODevice resourcestatus { pop pop (%Calendar%) currentdevparams dup /Running get { [/Year /Month /Day /Hour /Minute /Second] {1 index exch get rand xor srand} forall } if } if rand rand rand rand rand clear
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17:26:17 <HackEso> olist 1183: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
17:26:20 <fungot> b_jonas: are you in contact with the r6rs fnord decisions? or is it in? :p) have a fullscreen irc client.
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19:40:06 <fizzie> First time I've seen anyone write Apple's mobile operating system's name as "iOs".
19:40:14 <fizzie> (In the marketing materials of this insurance company.)
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19:41:14 <b_jonas> fizzie: insurance company? are the rates higher or lower for apple users?
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19:55:59 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘type’
19:56:33 <fizzie> No, they've just got an app for "Android" and for "iOs".
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19:57:34 <imode> https://repl.it/repls/MealySarcasticFact
19:58:11 <imode> the action is in prelude.modal. it's a REPL. try reverse ((1234) in trinary)
19:58:21 <imode> or sum reverse ((1234) in trinary)
19:59:57 <arseniiv> I made a huge mistake today, I thought ([0; 1], (x, y) ↦ xy, (x, y) ↦ x + y − xy) is a lattice :o
20:00:10 <arseniiv> the operations aren’t even idempotent
20:00:27 <arseniiv> and I had seen that fact a year or so ago
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20:55:10 <ornxka> is there an irc bot in here that lets people run programs in arbitrary esolangs? like ,eso brainfuck +[>.+<] or something
20:55:46 <b_jonas> ornxka: yes, hackeso and fungot can both run brainfuck
20:55:46 <fungot> b_jonas: you mean it. so we need something for os-level thread communication, and i'm not even sure there is
20:56:25 <lambdabot> !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghij...
20:56:25 <lambdabot> !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghij...
20:56:25 <lambdabot> !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghij...
20:56:28 <b_jonas> fungot doesn't run brainfuck, he only runs unefunge and underload
20:56:28 <fungot> b_jonas: stk calls that closures
20:56:34 <b_jonas> yeah, lambdabot runs brainfuck
20:57:02 <b_jonas> hackeso too but he truncates replies at a carriage return so we have to modify that
20:57:10 <b_jonas> `! bf +++++++++++++++[>.+<]
20:57:11 <int-e> oh right, newlines. (lambdabot filters control characters for sanity reasons)
20:57:29 <b_jonas> int-e: filtering makes sense, but truncating at a carriage return is an odd decision
20:57:45 <b_jonas> it has to remove carriage return because irc thinks it's not a valid character
20:57:57 <b_jonas> (irc is sort of like bbc, but at least only with three of the 256 bytes)
20:58:07 <b_jonas> `! bf >+++++++++++++++[+.]
20:58:09 <HackEso> !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~.
20:58:14 <fizzie> b_jonas: fungot *does* run brainfuck.
20:58:14 <fungot> fizzie: we are probably talking more like 100 lines here, if your terminal is really old) who was well-respected
20:58:16 <int-e> b_jonas: it skips to the next line on LF, hence we got three lines of output
20:58:19 <b_jonas> `! bf >+++++++++++++++++++++++[+.]
20:58:20 <HackEso> !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~.
20:58:27 <b_jonas> `! bf >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[+.]
20:58:27 <HackEso> !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~.
20:58:51 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
20:59:03 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: whois: not found
20:59:05 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: whois: not found
20:59:09 <HackEso> bf(1hackeso) - no description \ bf(1egobot) - no description \ bf(8fungot) - evaluate brainfuck program \ bf(8lambdabot) - evaluate brainfuck snippet
20:59:11 <HackEso> brainfuck: nothing appropriate.
20:59:18 <HackEso> a.out \ bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ f \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ izash.c \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quinor \ quotes \ share \ src \ test2 \ testfile \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
20:59:30 <HackEso> cat: /etc/passwd: No such file or directory
20:59:45 <fizzie> ornxka: It's not a chroot, it's a UML.
20:59:48 <b_jonas> `! bf ++++++++[>++++<][.+]
20:59:58 <fizzie> imode: User-mode Linux.
21:00:18 <fizzie> Well, an UML inside a namespaced container inside kvm.
21:00:47 <b_jonas> `! bf ++++++++[->++++<][.+]
21:00:53 <ornxka> thats actually a pretty cool way to do a bot actually
21:01:00 <b_jonas> `! bf ++++++++[->++++<].+.+.+.+
21:01:05 <b_jonas> `! bf +++++++++[->++++<].+.+.+.+
21:01:10 <HackEso> HackEso is almost but not quite unlike HackEgo.
21:01:15 <HackEso> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in all Mexico!
21:01:17 <HackEso> Help is on the way. We don't know where the way is, though. You might try `help instead.
21:01:19 <HackEso> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:01:36 <ornxka> >Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in all Mexico!
21:02:05 <b_jonas> `! bf +++++++++[->++++<]>[.+]
21:02:07 <HackEso> $%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~
21:02:14 <fizzie> HackEso's brainfuck interpreter is the one inherited from EgoBot, that's why it's accessible via !.
21:02:37 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin/bf
21:02:44 <ornxka> `! bf ++++++++[>++++[>++>+++>+++>+<<<<-]>+>->+>>+[<]<-]>>.>>---.+++++++..+++.>.<<-.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>++.
21:02:45 <fizzie> A wrapper, apparently.
21:03:17 <fizzie> A wrapper with the !-style standard input thing, further.
21:03:33 <b_jonas> @bf +++++++++[->++++<]>[.+]
21:03:33 <lambdabot> $%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmn...
21:04:37 <fizzie> And fungot does the ! input thing natively.
21:04:37 <fungot> fizzie: armed bear common lisp instead if i want. is to get the 3m binaries. can't open new ssh connection either
21:05:40 <ornxka> i feel like a jerk being responsible for you doing all this work just because i wanted to know if there was a brainfuck bot :p
21:07:05 <int-e> ornxka: don't feel bad
21:07:34 <int-e> this is perfectly normal for #esoteric, and I suspect everybody's enjoying this.
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21:07:52 <b_jonas> what work? oh right, modifying characters in the code until it starts to appear to work, without thinking or looking up anything. yeah, a lot of people get payed for that, so you could count that as work. I don't.
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21:10:36 <b_jonas> you could probably also convince j-bot to evaluate brainfuck, if you first write a brainfuck interpreter in J
21:15:45 <fizzie> fungot's ^bf interpreter is approximately lines 298-310 and 355-376 of https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
21:15:45 <fungot> fizzie: the report is cute. http://gehennom.org/fizban/ fnord/ music/ fnord if you're using c++, we can get the position of substituting atoms or groups of signed 8-bit values. there should be
21:16:16 <fizzie> The former is the actual core, which runs a bf-style bytecode (except with consecutive +s, -s, <s and >s folded), the latter parses brainfuck source into that form.
21:42:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Or]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66748&oldid=66745 * Areallycoolusername * (+252)
21:42:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Or]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66749&oldid=66748 * Areallycoolusername * (+119)
21:43:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Or]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66750&oldid=66749 * Areallycoolusername * (+0)
21:43:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Or]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66751&oldid=66750 * Areallycoolusername * (-2) /* Is Or really stack-based? */
21:43:50 <esowiki> [[Or]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66752&oldid=66743 * Areallycoolusername * (-28) /* Implementation */
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21:56:30 <HackEso> bf(1hackeso) - no description \ bf(1egobot) - evaluate brainfuck snippet \ bf(8fungot) - evaluate brainfuck program \ bf(8lambdabot) - evaluate brainfuck snippet
21:56:38 <b_jonas> I added a description to the egobot command, seeing that I used it
22:00:04 <b_jonas> ideally at some point I should amend the whatis program to accept a section name as first argument
22:00:22 <b_jonas> although that can be tricky, because we have genuine commands whose names are section names
22:00:27 <HackEso> 1(1hackeso) - run command, wrap output to irc lines
22:00:29 <HackEso> 5(1hackeso) - run command 5 times, wrap output to irc lines
22:00:31 <HackEso> 4(1hackeso) - run command 4 times, wrap output to irc lines
22:00:42 <HackEso> 2(1hackeso) - run command, wrap output to irc lines, show second line
22:06:47 <int-e> b_jonas: out of curiosity, does 0xef 0xbf 0xbd mean anything to you?
22:07:00 <int-e> (as a recurring byte sequence in some data)
22:07:49 <b_jonas> int-e: is that the byte order mark in utf-8?
22:08:17 <int-e> (though that wouldn't be recurring)
22:08:21 <HackEso> [U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER]
22:08:45 <int-e> It took me much longer to home in on UTF-8.
22:08:56 <b_jonas> `perl -euse Encode;printf"%vX",encode_utf8("\xFFFD")
22:09:07 <b_jonas> `perl -euse Encode;printf"%vX",encode_utf8("\x{FFFD}")
22:09:17 <b_jonas> `perl -euse Encode;printf"%vX",encode_utf8("\x{FEFF}")
22:09:52 <b_jonas> I don't remember all these numbers
22:10:21 <int-e> It's of no importance, but I guess you passed the test.
22:11:21 <b_jonas> these days I work with a lot of utf-16 and utf-8 files that have a byte order mark and are made of almost completely ascii otherwise
22:12:13 <b_jonas> `perl -euse Encode;printf"%vX",decode_utf8("\xEF\xBF\xBD")
22:12:19 <b_jonas> `perl -euse Encode;printf"%vX",decode_utf8("\xB9")
22:12:32 <b_jonas> right, that's cheating, it decodes replacement character for invalid utf-8 input
22:12:45 <int-e> Yeah, but that's probably what happened!
22:12:50 <b_jonas> `perl -euse Encode;printf"%vX",decode_utf8("\xB9",Encode::FB_CROAK)
22:12:51 <HackEso> utf8 "\xB9" does not map to Unicode at /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl/5.24/Encode.pm line 243.
22:12:59 <int-e> (Somebody taking raw data and decoding it as UTF-8.)
22:12:59 <b_jonas> `perl -euse Encode;printf"%vX",decode_utf8("\xEF\xBF\xBD",Encode::FB_CROAK)
22:13:00 <HackEso> Modification of a read-only value attempted at /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl/5.24/Encode.pm line 244.
22:13:15 <int-e> (Which explains how you get *a lot* of these replacement characters.)
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22:13:56 <b_jonas> `perl -euse Encode;printf"%vX",decode("utf-8","\xEF\xBF\xBD",Encode::FB_CROAK)
22:13:57 <HackEso> Modification of a read-only value attempted at /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl/5.24/Encode.pm line 204.
22:14:04 <int-e> (I don't know for sure what happened because I was just helping somebody look at the resulting mess.)
22:14:17 <b_jonas> `perl -euse Encode;printf"%vX",decode("utf-8","\xEF\xBF\xBD",1)
22:14:17 <HackEso> Modification of a read-only value attempted at /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl/5.24/Encode.pm line 204.
22:15:21 <int-e> doesn't like the ,1?
22:16:09 <b_jonas> `perl -euse Encode;decode("utf-8","\xEF\xBF\BD",9)
22:16:10 <HackEso> utf8 "\xEF" does not map to Unicode at /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl/5.24/Encode.pm line 202.
22:16:37 <int-e> 'If *CHECK* is 1, methods immediately die with an error message.' -- I guess you got *some* error message.
22:17:00 <b_jonas> int-e: no, the relevant part is that if bit 3 is not set, it shifts the characters that it did decode from the string
22:17:31 <b_jonas> but now why doesn't it deocde "\xEF\xBF\xBD"?
22:17:33 <int-e> ah, what an awkward interface
22:18:01 <b_jonas> int-e: I think there are high-level constants for this 9 and stuff, I just don't recall right now
22:18:45 <int-e> `` perl '-euse Encode;printf"%vX\n",decode("utf-8","\xEF\xBF\xBD",9)'
22:18:57 <int-e> ...so what's different...
22:19:06 <b_jonas> `perl -euse Encode;printf"%vX\n",decode("utf-8","\xEF\xBF\xBD",9)
22:19:11 <b_jonas> probably doesn't like void context
22:19:17 <b_jonas> `perl -euse Encode;$x=decode("utf-8","\xEF\xBF\xBD",9)
22:19:21 <b_jonas> `perl -euse Encode;()=decode("utf-8","\xEF\xBF\xBD",9)
22:19:28 <b_jonas> `perl -euse Encode;decode("utf-8","\xEF\xBF\xBD",9)
22:19:49 <b_jonas> `perl -euse Encode;printf"%vX\n",decode("utf-8","\xBF\xBD",9)
22:19:49 <HackEso> utf8 "\xBF" does not map to Unicode at /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl/5.24/Encode.pm line 202.
22:19:53 <b_jonas> `perl -euse Encode;printf"%vX\n",decode("utf-8","\xEF\xBF\xBD",9)
22:20:01 <b_jonas> `perl -euse Encode;printf"(%vX)\n",decode("utf-8","\xEF\xBF\xBD",9)
22:23:51 <b_jonas> `python3 b"\xEF\xBF\xBD".decode()
22:23:52 <HackEso> python3: can't open file 'b"\xEF\xBF\xBD".decode()': [Errno 2] No such file or directory
22:23:57 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint(b"\xEF\xBF\xBD".decode())
22:24:45 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint(list(map(ord,b"\xEF\xBF\xBD".decode())))
22:24:47 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint(list(map(ord,b"\xBD".decode())))
22:24:47 <HackEso> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "<string>", line 1, in <module> \ UnicodeDecodeError: 'utf-8' codec can't decode byte 0xbd in position 0: invalid start byte
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11:28:54 <esowiki> [[2C]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66753&oldid=58491 * Ais523 * (+605) /* Unlimited alphabets */ the simpler compilation, and a rulue 110 example
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12:08:46 <HackEso> [U+0055 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U] [U+002B PLUS SIGN] [U+0032 DIGIT TWO] [U+0037 DIGIT SEVEN] [U+0036 DIGIT SIX] [U+0034 DIGIT FOUR]
12:09:13 <wib_jonas> ``` unicode U+2764 | xargs unidecode
12:09:14 <HackEso> [U+2764 HEAVY BLACK HEART]
12:10:25 <int-e> It is with a ❤ that I write to inform you...
12:14:26 <HackEso> [U+1234 ETHIOPIC SYLLABLE SEE]
12:15:00 <fizzie> (Yet another useless wrapper nobody's going to remember.)
12:15:43 <wib_jonas> fizzie: http://unicode.scarfboy.com/?s=U%2B2764
12:16:34 <HackEso> [U+2763 HEAVY HEART EXCLAMATION MARK ORNAMENT]
12:17:01 <wib_jonas> see also http://unicode.scarfboy.com/?s=heavy
12:17:02 <int-e> that's an oxymoronic symbol
12:26:38 <HackEso> [U+2927 NORTH WEST ARROW AND NORTH EAST ARROW] [U+2932 NORTH WEST ARROW CROSSING NORTH EAST ARROW] [U+2932 NORTH WEST ARROW CROSSING NORTH EAST ARROW] [U+292B RISING DIAGONAL CROSSING FALLING DIAGONAL]
12:27:13 <wib_jonas> the supplemental arrows block b is ridiculous
12:33:52 <fizzie> Needed to zoom my font size in order to see any difference in those.
12:34:40 <fizzie> In fact the middle two are the same character, but maybe you meant to put a NORTH EAST ARROW CROSSING NORTH WEST ARROW there.
12:34:47 <fizzie> Assuming there is one.
12:34:52 <HackEso> [U+2190 LEFTWARDS ARROW] [U+21BC LEFTWARDS HARPOON WITH BARB UPWARDS] [U+21BD LEFTWARDS HARPOON WITH BARB DOWNWARDS] [U+21FD LEFTWARDS OPEN-HEADED ARROW] [U+27F5 LONG LEFTWARDS ARROW] [U+1F800 LEFTWARDS ARROW WITH SMALL TRIANGLE ARROWHEAD] [U+1F804 LEFTWARDS ARROW WITH MEDIUM TRIANGLE ARROWHEAD] [U+1F808 LEFTWARDS ARROW WITH LARGE TRIANGLE ARROWHEAD] [U+1F810 LEFTWARDS ARROW WITH SMALL EQUILATERAL ARROWHEAD] [U+1F814 LEFTWARDS ARROW WITH EQ
12:36:04 <HackEso> [U+2927 NORTH WEST ARROW AND NORTH EAST ARROW] [U+2931 NORTH EAST ARROW CROSSING NORTH WEST ARROW] [U+2932 NORTH WEST ARROW CROSSING NORTH EAST ARROW] [U+292F FALLING DIAGONAL CROSSING NORTH EAST ARROW] [U+292B RISING DIAGONAL CROSSING FALLING DIAGONAL] [U+292C FALLING DIAGONAL CROSSING RISING DIAGONAL]
12:36:12 <fizzie> `` unidecode ←→ # the only arrows I use, because they come out of compose - > and compose < -
12:36:14 <HackEso> [U+2190 LEFTWARDS ARROW] [U+2192 RIGHTWARDS ARROW]
12:36:55 <wib_jonas> fizzie: sure, ← is the normal assignment arrow, the one that should have been in ASCII in place of the underscore
12:37:34 <wib_jonas> I mostly just use ASCII arrows, specifically <- -> |> :>
12:38:41 <HackEso> [U+1F810 LEFTWARDS ARROW WITH SMALL EQUILATERAL ARROWHEAD] [U+1F814 LEFTWARDS ARROW WITH EQUILATERAL ARROWHEAD] [U+1F818 HEAVY LEFTWARDS ARROW WITH EQUILATERAL ARROWHEAD] [U+1F820 LEFTWARDS TRIANGLE-HEADED ARROW WITH NARROW SHAFT] [U+1F824 LEFTWARDS TRIANGLE-HEADED ARROW WITH MEDIUM SHAFT] [U+1F828 LEFTWARDS TRIANGLE-HEADED ARROW WITH BOLD SHAFT] [U+1F82C LEFTWARDS TRIANGLE-HEADED ARROW WITH HEAVY SHAFT] [U+1F830 LEFTWARDS TRIANGLE-HEADED A
12:39:05 <fizzie> An annoyance: I don't think the "standard" (defined as whatever I get without configuring anything) compose map has a way to compose the up and down arrows, only the left and right ones.
12:41:00 <HackEso> [U+1F838 LEFTWARDS SQUARED ARROW] [U+1F83C LEFTWARDS COMPRESSED ARROW] [U+1F840 LEFTWARDS HEAVY COMPRESSED ARROW] [U+1F844 LEFTWARDS HEAVY ARROW] [U+1F850 LEFTWARDS SANS-SERIF ARROW] [U+1F860 WIDE-HEADED LEFTWARDS LIGHT BARB ARROW] [U+1F868 WIDE-HEADED LEFTWARDS BARB ARROW] [U+1F870 WIDE-HEADED LEFTWARDS MEDIUM BARB ARROW] [U+1F878 WIDE-HEADED LEFTWARDS HEAVY BARB ARROW] [U+1F880 WIDE-HEADED LEFTWARDS VERY HEAVY BARB ARROW]
12:41:55 <HackEso> [U+1F890 LEFTWARDS TRIANGLE ARROWHEAD] [U+1F894 LEFTWARDS WHITE ARROW WITHIN TRIANGLE ARROWHEAD] [U+1F898 LEFTWARDS ARROW WITH NOTCHED TAIL] [U+21E6 LEFTWARDS WHITE ARROW] [U+1F8A0 LEFTWARDS BOTTOM-SHADED WHITE ARROW] [U+1F8A2 LEFTWARDS TOP SHADED WHITE ARROW] [U+1F8A4 LEFTWARDS LEFT-SHADED WHITE ARROW] [U+1F8A6 LEFTWARDS RIGHT-SHADED WHITE ARROW] [U+1F8A8 LEFTWARDS BACK-TILTED SHADOWED WHITE ARROW] [U+1F8AA LEFTWARDS FRONT-TILTED SHADOWED
12:42:51 <HackEso> [U+2B05 LEFTWARDS BLACK ARROW] [U+2B60 LEFTWARDS TRIANGLE-HEADED ARROW]
12:45:49 <wib_jonas> I think they're trying to use the code tables as an archaeological museum with all these arrows
12:46:22 <fizzie> There's probably a steganography utility that encodes data in its choice of arrows.
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12:46:40 <wib_jonas> fizzie: for upwards arrow I just write ** when it means power
12:46:52 <fizzie> (Maybe not a particularly successful one, because I'm sure on many systems a lot of those are just rectangles.)
12:47:25 <int-e> ←↼↽⇽⟵⇦ were the only non-boxes here :P
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13:11:59 <int-e> hello brainfuck addict
13:15:15 <esowiki> [[Idvac]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66754&oldid=66704 * FireCubez * (-20)
13:30:30 <esowiki> [[Idvac]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66755&oldid=66754 * FireCubez * (+65)
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14:04:40 <esowiki> [[Idvac]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66756&oldid=66755 * FireCubez * (+18)
14:10:57 <esowiki> [[Idvac]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66757&oldid=66756 * FireCubez * (+3)
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14:28:53 <wib_jonas> while(<>){ s(((?:^|>|\G)[^<]*?)(?<!['&0-9;A-Za-z])(?!a[a-ik-np-z]|b[lry]|c[hlryz]|d[rwy]|e[a-jlmnp-vxy]|f[lr]|g[hlnry]|h[my]|i[bcdfglmnorstv]|k[hn]|l[y]|m[hy]|n[y]|o[bcdfghk-nprstv-z]|p[hlnrsy]|q[u]|r[hy]|s[chk-npqtwy]|t[hrswy]|u[bghlmnprst]|w[aehior]|x[e]|[bcdfghjklmnoprstvyz][aeiou])([a-z][a-z][a-z]))($1###$2)g and print}
14:29:02 <wib_jonas> ^ guys, try this awesome spellchecker for html files
14:29:10 <wib_jonas> I just found several genuine typos with it
14:29:32 <wib_jonas> you don't need big dictionaries if you just want to fix the easiest surface to attack
14:30:16 <wib_jonas> admittedly it does produce false alarms, which you can either ignore by hand, or add into the regex if they occur several times
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15:53:36 <int-e> Heh, "fun calorie" https://rwc.iacr.org/2018/Slides/Karpman.pdf slide 32.
16:31:57 <arseniiv> @tell b_jonas interesting! how I run that?
16:32:25 <arseniiv> wah I degrade in grammar department
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16:54:37 <b_jonas> arseniiv: save the program in a file, say spellchech.pl , then run perl spellcheck.pl < foo.html
16:56:54 <b_jonas> I should figure out which of the letter combos that this reject you can get by dropping the first or second letter of a word, classify the digrphs three-way to ok, d/c, mistake, and make a golf challenge out of it
17:03:20 <b_jonas> digraphs are classified as d/c if either (they don't occur at the start of words but you also can't get them by mistake), or (they occur at start of word but rarely)
17:16:44 <int-e> Now I want to have fun calorie estimates for Alpha Go and friends...
17:17:46 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CMinusMinus * New user account
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17:27:21 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66758&oldid=66722 * CMinusMinus * (+328)
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19:06:29 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Woofmao * New user account
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19:19:13 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66759&oldid=66758 * Woofmao * (+225) Hello World!
19:22:45 <esowiki> [[User:Woofmao]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66760 * Woofmao * (+130) Created used page
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23:08:14 <esowiki> [[Bitoven]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66761&oldid=43183 * CMinusMinus * (+25) I Dont even know If this is necessary.
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23:14:49 <HackEso> hppavilion1:higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like movie spoilers or jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / be left perplexed
23:15:07 <HackEso> 11916:2019-08-26 <b_jonäs> `` perl -pi -e\'s"(jokes)"movie spoilers or $1"\' wisdom/hppavilion1 \ 5743:2015-06-25 <hppavilion̈1> revert \ 5742:2015-06-25 <ZomieChenëy> learn hppavilion1 is ZombieCheney \ 5607:2015-06-18 <shachäf> ` sed -i -e \'s/\\w\\+ \\w\\+ //\' -e \'s/leave them/be left/\' wisdom/hppavilion1 \ 5606:2015-06-18 <hppavilion̈1> learn hppavilion1 is higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn\'t like jokes that are / written
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23:15:31 <shachaf> b_jonas: what's all that about
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13:02:28 <b_jonas> ``` hg log -T "{rev}:{date|shortdate}:{desc}\n" -r 11915
13:02:29 <HackEso> 11915:2019-08-26:<b_jonas> `` set -e; slashlearn "spoiler//Don\'t give movie spoilers on channel. If you do, hppavilion may hire a hitman to hunt you down in real life and torture you in refined ways."; forget "rogue one"
13:03:00 <b_jonas> shachaf: for a pretty long time, there was a "wisdom/rogue one" where someone says that nobody should give spoilers to that movie.
13:03:09 <b_jonas> it wasn't signed by anyone, but hg log said that it was by hppavilion
13:03:24 <b_jonas> at that time, hppavilion disappeared, so I didn't dare touch the wisdom entry
13:03:48 <b_jonas> but later, hppavilion returned, I asked him about it, and converted the wisdom entry to a general one about all movies, rather than specifically about Rogue one
13:03:53 <HackEso> Don't give movie spoilers on channel. If you do, hppavilion may hire a hitman to hunt you down in real life and torture you in refined ways.
13:03:59 <b_jonas> the higgedly wisdom also refers to this
13:04:20 <b_jonas> I changed them because I find it distasteful for wisdoms to have serious but unsigned threats
13:04:37 <b_jonas> if you threaten to send hitmen, at least tell who's sending them
13:05:00 <b_jonas> ``` hg cat -r 11914 wisdom/rogue\ one
13:05:01 <HackEso> Any regular who gives the slightest Rogue One spoiler shall be hunted down in real life and have their intestines removed through their eye sockets. Members would not be exempt if they existed, which they don't.
13:05:15 <b_jonas> you can check channel logs about this if you want
13:06:08 <int-e> it's the name of his sled
13:08:17 <int-e> (such an odd movie)
13:09:47 <int-e> good point http://thedevilspanties.com/archives/13421
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13:55:25 <int-e> Wow, what just happened to Violetta...
13:56:51 <int-e> Ah, "it" from a week ago happened.
14:37:43 <b_jonas> timezone offset change in the parts of Europe that have timezone offset changes in 3.5 days
14:38:25 <stennowork> were you active in the nethack community?
14:39:09 <b_jonas> I have some wishlist entries and bug reports for nethack4, you can still find them in the bug tracker except that the bug tracker interface is really hard to use,
14:39:19 <b_jonas> plus I have a total of _one_ ascension behind me
14:39:30 <stennowork> you should really look into nethack again, amazing things have happened
14:39:45 <b_jonas> I know there's a vanilla release or two since
14:39:56 <b_jonas> they changed a lot of things, I'd have to relearn everything
14:40:00 <stennowork> and vanilla is basically better than NAO-3.4.3 was
14:40:05 <b_jonas> figure out how to protect against all the threats that MC3 simply cancelled
14:40:27 <stennowork> my first post-MC nerf ascension just had MC2 and it worked fine :p
14:40:37 <b_jonas> also the spoiler page http://www.statslab.cam.ac.uk/~eva/nethack/spoilerlist.html has disappeared
14:40:58 <stennowork> the spoilers are probably not up to date anymore
14:41:06 <stennowork> even the wiki can't really keep up heh
14:42:00 <b_jonas> stennowork: without MC3, do you, like, have to set your clothes on fire every time you're slimed? or prioritize on killing green slimes?
14:42:08 <b_jonas> because being on fire sounds uncomfortable
14:42:17 <stennowork> you just have to be a little bit more careful
14:42:27 <stennowork> to be fair thuogh, if you are in gehennom, you should have FR already :P
14:42:34 <stennowork> the really biggest issue is level drain
14:42:40 <b_jonas> even with the Con score increased easily with exercise
14:42:45 <stennowork> and vlad is now the second-fastest monster in the game
14:43:00 <b_jonas> didn't they also change exercise so that Dex, Con, Wis attributes are no longer so easy to max?
14:43:10 <stennowork> so he stands on the upstairs, hits you, level drains you, then teleports to the upstairs again before you even get an action
14:43:27 <stennowork> maybe, but i don't remember anything specific for that
14:43:31 <b_jonas> I'm ok with vlad, the joke was old, I have to deal with some tough monsters for the ascension anyway
14:43:46 <b_jonas> that just makes it more awesome to kill vlad with a towel or rubber hose or whatever
14:43:55 <stennowork> yes, i also like an actually strong monster in the endgame
14:44:07 <b_jonas> also, I play as a vampire lord, so I consider vlad friends
14:44:13 <b_jonas> I do have to kill them, but it's not personal
14:45:01 <b_jonas> in nethack4, but also would play that way in other nethack 3.4.3 variants
14:45:22 <b_jonas> the fourweapon bug is so awesome that I don't see a reason to play as anything but polymorphed to a fourweaponing monster
14:45:52 <b_jonas> basically if you're polymorphed to a monster that has two weapon attacks, then you get two attacks with each of two weapons, and you can wield two weapons regardless your role
14:46:08 <b_jonas> and the best polyform among those is the vampire lord
14:46:35 <stennowork> there is a new variant called 'evilhack', which implemented twoweaponing martial arts
14:46:49 <stennowork> so when you are grand master you get a second attack as if you were twoweaponing
14:47:12 <stennowork> unfortunately a bug in that was my demise - the second attack would not check for gloves etc so the first cockatrice i ran into stoned me
14:47:26 <b_jonas> did the later vanilla releases fix the fourweaponing bug, or the ring nutrition bug? or are these now ascended bugs that won't ever be fixed?
14:47:46 <stennowork> i have to admit i don't know of that fourweaponing bug
14:48:04 <b_jonas> yeah, for some reason it's not everyone's style
14:48:07 <stennowork> ring nutrition is the one where you dual-wield rings of slow digestion and take them off every 20 turns or so?
14:48:09 <b_jonas> I really don't understand because it's so powerful
14:48:22 <stennowork> twoweaponing got a major overhaul though since 3.4.3
14:48:38 <b_jonas> I understand that sometimes you want to unpolymorph, or polymorph to something else, for utility reasons, but when I want to plough through enemies, I want attacks
14:48:41 <stennowork> its not more like a proper second attack, not that autodamage thing it was in 3.4.3
14:48:44 <b_jonas> and I don't get those natively as a wizard
14:49:19 <b_jonas> (my one ascension was with a valkyrie though)
14:49:32 <stennowork> i knew that you could polymorph into a twoweaponing monster and then you could twoweapon yourself
14:49:42 <stennowork> again i am not familiar with fourweaponing or if this bug still exist :D
14:49:53 <b_jonas> (but I have a wizard game abandonned in close to gomode on nethack4)
14:54:02 <stennowork> b_jonas, so how about hanging out in #hardfought again? :D you will meet a few old friends (ais523 which i assume also dwells in this channel, jonadab etc...)
14:54:17 <stennowork> and you will see how the current development is and how exciting everything is
14:54:47 <b_jonas> anyway, in the nh4 tracker I have a few actual bugs (rather than wishlists) that I have hard feelings about, and in particular, vanilla worked around the chest trap problem the incorrect way
14:55:08 <b_jonas> stennowork: what the heck is #hardfought ? I haven't heard of that channel. I was in other nethack-related channels only
14:55:24 <stennowork> the hardfought server by K2 hosts nethack since 2016
14:55:37 <stennowork> and its the server where all the variants are now hosted too
14:55:50 <stennowork> so that channel is a bit like 'the variant channel'
14:56:13 <b_jonas> #NetHack,#acehack,#nethack-offtopic,#devnull-nethack,#nethack4
14:56:32 <stennowork> #devnull-nethack is dead because devnull is dead
14:56:42 <b_jonas> that's not a problem, there's junethack instead
14:56:50 <b_jonas> it's not like I want to play unpatched interface
14:56:56 <stennowork> yes, and hardfought also hosts the 'TNNT' tournaments
14:57:05 <stennowork> TNNT is a replacement for the devnull tourney
14:57:40 <stennowork> yes, the waldo power armor was awesome
14:58:17 <stennowork> if you see rld talking, its an IRC->discord bridge
14:59:34 <b_jonas> stennowork: anyway, I said that I don't know how I arrived to this channel, to which ais523 said that maybe I followed him here from #nethack4, which sounds quite plausible
14:59:59 <stennowork> ais523 is the only reason i just joined too :D
15:00:06 <b_jonas> but there are other possibilities, and I didn't bother to check the logs
15:00:12 <stennowork> because in another channel, Befunge came up
15:00:16 <b_jonas> logs probably has the truth
15:01:25 <stennowork> in another channel, i found the developer of ARES (corewars) hanging out
15:01:44 <stennowork> and ESR himself came online to talk about nethack
15:01:52 <b_jonas> "ARES (corewars)"? isn't ARES a library for non-blocking DNS resolving
15:02:58 <stennowork> its a greek god name among other things
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15:03:20 <b_jonas> and a name of a sharp tool too, I know
15:03:31 <stennowork> maybe ares is something like 'another redcode execution sandbox' or something like that
15:04:50 <stennowork> all the redcode stuff is named after roman and greek gods
15:05:11 <stennowork> anyway, enough channel hijacking, sorry for that v_v
15:05:11 <b_jonas> I hope there's no "Athene" or "Athena". that's like the single most over-used name
15:11:40 <b_jonas> stennowork: anyway, it's not likely that I'll return to playing nethack soon. I should write a bot that startscums an online server until it finds a wand of wishing on dlvl1 and then give away the game. It's not that unlikely, I could probably get such a game every few months.
15:12:30 <b_jonas> stennowork: oh also, the 3.6 release seriously nerfs Elbereth, that means I'd basically have to relearn tactics from scratch
15:12:34 <stennowork> vt_tiledata is now in vanilla, so i already wrote some node abstraction
15:12:36 <b_jonas> there's no way I could survive early game
15:12:53 <stennowork> scroll of scare monster was buffed though
15:13:04 <b_jonas> also possibly a bot that tries to dig down as archaeologist and leave helpful bones
15:13:22 <b_jonas> because it more likely uses up all existing bones than leave good ones
15:13:33 <b_jonas> and without Elbereth the digging down strategy is much harder
15:13:59 <b_jonas> I can't just keep digging on dlvl9 on a square with Elbereth and hope that the high level monsters leave me alone
15:14:11 <b_jonas> stennowork: sure it was, but it's what I'm used to
15:16:06 <b_jonas> stennowork: but (a) I have to find a scroll, (b) when I dig down, the scroll can fall to any neighboring square, including one where I can't dig down, and I can't pick it up, so I don't know how easily that would work
15:16:19 <b_jonas> would I have to always dig wherever the scroll happens to fall?
15:16:29 <b_jonas> anyway, it probably doesn't matter because this wouldn't work well in 3.4.3 either
15:16:55 <b_jonas> I did consider scumming wizards with wand of digging too, but they have just too few charges
15:17:08 <b_jonas> I should probably stick to the wand of wishing strategy
15:17:23 <b_jonas> look around on dlvl1, hope not to get killed, look for wands, quickly restart if there isn't any
15:17:24 <stennowork> yes, for dfv you basically need to go the mines and kill the first dwarf with a pickaxe
15:17:37 <b_jonas> if I find wand, engrave with it, wish for 2 bgf scrolls of charging
15:17:47 <b_jonas> stennowork: no no, this is #esoteric, most of the fun is writing the bot itself
15:17:57 <b_jonas> if I do it, I want to do it myself
15:18:13 <b_jonas> it's not like I would earn real life money from getting wands of wishing
15:18:13 <stennowork> well then let me say that its easier than ever before because of aforementioned vt_tiledata being in vanilla
15:18:32 <b_jonas> (if I did, then I'd farm puddings then unicorns rather then startscum)
15:18:38 <stennowork> so if you have an ANSI-term parser, you have to just extend the extra escape codes
15:19:21 <stennowork> i wrote a short wiki article about the new vt_tiledata codes https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Vt_tiledata
15:20:03 <b_jonas> stennowork: no no, I don't want to dfv, I just considered digging down with an unprotected archaeologist with Elbereth, die on like dlvl 12, but first drop my inventory (so it doesn't get cursed) and leave bones that help others
15:20:06 <stennowork> and maybe just for inspiration, here is how a startscum script looks like in my nodehack https://github.com/stenno/NodeHack/blob/master/examples/startscum.js
15:20:19 <b_jonas> with a wizard, I'd also leave engravings to identify my inventory
15:20:47 <b_jonas> but wizards can't dig deep enough
15:21:08 <b_jonas> their wand of digging runs out before they reach bones depth
15:21:35 <stennowork> doesn't bring you far considering you want down to DL 25 or so :P
15:21:43 <b_jonas> I don't want down to dl 25
15:21:53 <b_jonas> I only want down to between dl 12 and 16
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15:35:41 <b_jonas> I wonder if anyone will ever ascend Heaven or Hell mode
15:37:06 <int-e> . o O ( What about AIs... the main point being that they can spend many human life time equivalents on trying over and over again?)
15:39:24 <b_jonas> int-e: by the time I left nethack, some people managed to ascend it with fully automated bots. but HoH needs new strategies devised, not just some luck.
15:39:49 <stennowork> int-e, the game exists since 1987. the first (and only) bot to win the game was released in 2016
15:40:07 <b_jonas> int-e: and we enjoy nethack because almost everything has answers, so you don't need too much luck to ascend, only good strategies and tactics
15:40:08 <stennowork> so far, there has not been any other bot that even comes close to ascending
15:41:18 <b_jonas> almost everything EXCEPT FOR THE FUCKING CHEST TRAPS as I argue in a bug report, and that would be trivial to fix too, as I also argue in that bug report, although the trap system really should be teared out of nethack and completely rewritten, that particular problem can totally be fixed without that
15:41:51 <b_jonas> stennowork: let me find my good description in the nh4 bug tracker
15:42:22 <stennowork> YSK that the castle chest is now guaranteed to be untrapped
15:42:48 <stennowork> so they found a way to make untrapped chests from the .des files
15:42:51 <b_jonas> stennowork: https://roguelikes.live/nh4-bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=214
15:43:03 <b_jonas> stennowork: yes, I know 3.6 does that, and I still say that that's not the right fix
15:43:34 <b_jonas> I argue in the bug ticket that chest traps don't have answers, and in nethack, things should have answers
15:43:43 <b_jonas> one of the chest traps that is
15:43:46 <stennowork> didn't know that an exploding chest would destroy items on the same square
15:44:35 <stennowork> do you know that people like ais523, paxed and bhaak are now members of the devteam?
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16:44:42 <arseniiv> one guy wants to make a computer game with magic governed by a deep mathematical theory/concept, do you have something in mind to suggest? (Then I’ll relay it.) He gave https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/string+diagram as an example of things which would interest him, though I think there are no solid decisions made yet, and no conception in which specific way would it manifest in a game
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16:46:06 <imode> cellular automata. :P
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16:47:50 <b_jonas> arseniiv: well, David Madore has a few ideas about that, see http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-05-07.2296.html (and the older http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2013-10-07.2162.html that it points to)
16:48:18 <b_jonas> also http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2018-09-27.2555.html
16:48:30 <arseniiv> maybe I should direct him here
16:48:41 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I don't think he uses irc
16:48:52 <b_jonas> but he has a comment section, twitter, and email
16:49:29 <arseniiv> b_jonas: rofl :D I don’t mean David Madore
16:51:05 <arseniiv> though I don’t know him at all, I just got interested and suggested tensory things to him. Then I was surprised by the coincidence: string diagrams in their simplest form are for monoidal categories
16:51:17 <b_jonas> arseniiv: but be careful, because we officially don't do the other kind of esoterism in this channel
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16:55:10 <skyplane> может скажете, куда с этим: https://skyplaneru.wixsite.com/excessive ?
16:55:38 <arseniiv> b_jonas: eh, I was about to dust off my ouija board
16:55:39 <skyplane> понимаю что в сообщество прогеров, но вдруг
16:57:12 <arseniiv> skyplane: я прочитал и ничего не понял вообще
16:57:57 <imode> skyplane: это не место для какого-то дерьма, которое вы торгуете. немногие (если таковые имеются) здесь говорят по-русски.
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17:01:26 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: oh! how do you use it?
17:02:03 <kspalaiologos> well, first you have to sign the pledge with Satan
17:02:03 <arseniiv> BTW I don’t really have an ouija but I can simulate it by means of a cat if I ever would want to
17:02:50 <skyplane> imode: разница в том, что я сабжем не торгую. от слова совсем. и указанная миссия - действительно миссия. З.Ы. с головой всё нормально.
17:03:26 <imode> sorry, speak english.
17:03:42 <skyplane> arseniiv: не вопрос, бывает и непонимание
17:04:17 <imode> why do you have a bot in here.
17:04:41 <imode> your client does that.
17:04:53 <imode> and there are log files in the topic of this channel.
17:05:13 <HackEso> #esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/
17:05:24 <kspalaiologos> LogBot::log(LogBot=HASH(0x55f49e95e340), "<skyplane>", "arseniiv: \x{43d}\x{435} \x{432}\x{43e}\x{43f}\x{440}\x{43e}\x{441}, \x{431}\x{44b}\x{432}\x{430}\x{435}\x{442} \x{438} \x{43d}\x{435}\x{43f}\x{43e}\x{43d}\x{438}\x{43c}\x{430}\x{43d}\x{438}\x{435}") called at harvester.pl line 166
17:05:27 <b_jonas> imode: the last one I think
17:05:31 <arseniiv> <kspalaiologos> russian characters are actually wide characters => wait why, how
17:06:09 <imode> b_jonas: ah, right.
17:06:25 <b_jonas> imode: I mean, that's the new one, so that's the most likely to break
17:07:00 <arseniiv> okay, returning to the thing I asked, should I give a log excerpt to that person or may I just rephrase what was brought? (Including CA and noita; interesting thing, I’ll watch a video later)
17:07:02 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: long time? it ran for a month
17:07:14 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: our channel is over twelve years old
17:07:28 <b_jonas> imode: really, it's either that, or an update on irc's side
17:07:31 <arseniiv> <kspalaiologos> ^ apparently perl thinks so => ah. Hm. It’s very strange to say the least
17:07:43 <kspalaiologos> I have read the old IRC logs because I needed *something*
17:07:48 <arseniiv> (shouldn’t it write in UTF-8 or something)
17:08:10 <b_jonas> arseniiv: if you write the program correctly
17:08:22 <b_jonas> arseniiv: in fact you should never _decode_ what you read from irc
17:08:26 <b_jonas> because it's not in any defined encoding
17:08:37 <imode> it's just bytes, man.
17:08:47 <b_jonas> though we usually view it in utf-8, you can send any byte string that doesn't have \x00 or \x0A or \x0D
17:09:00 <b_jonas> imode: exactly, but people sometimes write programs with bugs and later fix it
17:09:51 <kspalaiologos> but I can't tell what happened on 10.18 5:00-6:00 PM GMT
17:11:23 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: the esolangs.org log is backfilled after the fact from other bots when it's out. it is in fact pretty new, only like two years old, but fizzie added all the old logs retroactively to its archive
17:12:02 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: perhaps eventually he'll fill gaps from your logs too
17:12:09 <b_jonas> mailing list? what mailing list?
17:12:59 <b_jonas> we don't have a mailing list, even wgrep doesn't know about it
17:13:25 <skyplane> can you tell where with this: https://skyplaneru.wixsite.com/excessive?
17:13:25 <skyplane> I understand that in the community of programmers, but suddenly
17:14:06 <HackEso> The wiki is at <https://esolangs.org/>.
17:14:11 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: ^ you have to search right
17:14:21 <HackEso> wisdom/ayacc:ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc \ wisdom/dwfo:DWFO is the Doctor Who Fan Orchestra, <http://thedwfo.org>. \ wisdom/homestuck:Homestuck is a cult religion for disaffected teens. Gamzee drives the bus. Best summarized by http://www.mspaintadventures.com/storyfiles/hs2/05743.gif \ wisdom/hand injuries:Hand injuries are surprisingly common among webcomi
17:14:32 <HackEso> Hand injuries are surprisingly common among webcomic writers, see eg. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2314 or http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0864.html
17:14:40 <b_jonas> ^ I found a third example, I should add it there
17:15:11 <HackEso> ?(1hackeso) - print wisdom by name \ ?(8lambdabot) - compose tree of lambdabot commands
17:15:17 <HackEso> The Wisdome is the place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom. Strictly speaking, it should be called the "Wissphere".
17:15:21 <kspalaiologos> have you already trained muscle memory for the #esoteric bots?
17:15:28 <b_jonas> ``` grep -REi http wisdom | tail -n+4
17:15:29 <HackEso> wisdom/hand injuries:Hand injuries are surprisingly common among webcomic writers, see eg. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2314 or http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0864.html \ wisdom/pbflist:pbflist is update notification for the Perry Bible Fellowship webcomic. http://pbfcomics.com/ \ wisdom/log:#esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ https
17:15:52 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: I use normal unix commands more than the extra-specialized stuff
17:16:03 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: bin/\? foo basically just prints wisdom/foo
17:16:07 <b_jonas> it does a few extra things, but not too much
17:16:13 <b_jonas> ``` cat wisdom/"hand injury"
17:16:15 <HackEso> cat: 'wisdom/hand injury': No such file or directory
17:16:17 <b_jonas> ``` cat wisdom/"hand injuries"
17:16:17 <HackEso> Hand injuries are surprisingly common among webcomic writers, see eg. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2314 or http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0864.html
17:16:20 <HackEso> bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ sbin \ srv \ sys \ tmp \ usr
17:16:21 <HackEso> `run <command> is HackEgo's builtin for running a command with full shell syntax. These days most use the user-made `` or ``` shortcuts instead, although all of the three have subtle differences, with `run being the most plain option (also, unlike the rest it cannot be called from other commands.)
17:16:24 <HackEso> bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ dash \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ domainname \ echo \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ findmnt \ fuser \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ journalctl \ kill \ less \ lessecho \ lessfile \ lesskey \ lesspipe \ ln \ login \ loginctl \ ls \ lsblk \ mkdir \ mknod \ mktemp
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17:16:50 <b_jonas> the commands were added by users
17:16:59 <HackEso> Don't give movie spoilers on channel. If you do, hppavilion may hire a hitman to hunt you down in real life and torture you in refined ways.
17:17:05 <hppavilion[1]> I have tickets to, like, the second showing in the state
17:17:08 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: sure we have
17:17:13 <b_jonas> we made a lot of mistakes, then undone them
17:17:16 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: ...what that intentional or just the world's greatest timing?
17:17:21 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: intentional
17:17:39 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: you can see the history that I talked about that wisdom entry earlier because shachaf asked
17:17:59 <HackEso> a.out \ bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ f \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ izash.c \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quinor \ quotes \ share \ src \ test2 \ testfile \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
17:18:03 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: and you have the same nick length as kspalaiologos so at first I thought it was he who said "I am very excited for the Rise of Skywalker"
17:18:09 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: so I had to warn him
17:18:14 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: you can experiment in tmp
17:18:16 <HackEso> tmp/ is a directory for files that are not worth saving in HackEgo history, but which should still outlive a single command. NOTE: It interacts funnily with HackEgo's lock and re-run commit check; files can DISAPPEAR if you don't know what you're doing. Basically, don't modify files inside and outside tmp/ in the same HackEgo command.
17:18:36 <HackEso> a.out \ bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ f \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ izash.c \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quinor \ quotes \ share \ src \ test2 \ testfile \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
17:18:55 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: But it isn't out for months, so if kspalaiologos happens to HAVE spoilers, I'd honestly be fascinated to know how (but not what they are)
17:19:13 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; gcc -Wall -O -o tmp/a.out -x c - <<<$'#include<stdio.h>\n''void main() { printf("this is a C program\n"); }'; tmp/a.out
17:19:15 <HackEso> [01m[K<stdin>:2:6:[m[K [01;35m[Kwarning: [m[Kreturn type of '[01m[Kmain[m[K' is not '[01m[Kint[m[K' [[01;35m[K-Wmain[m[K] \ this is a C program
17:19:22 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; gcc -Wall -O -o tmp/a.out -x c - <<<$'#include<stdio.h>\n''int main() { printf("this is a C program\n"); }'; tmp/a.out
17:19:38 <b_jonas> yeah, it also needs a magic option to turn off the colors
17:19:47 <b_jonas> something like -fdiagnostic-colors=never or similar
17:19:59 <hppavilion[1]> Note that I do not recognize the validity of so-called "trailer spoilers"
17:20:09 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: ideally I should make a terminfo entry for irc colors, but I haven't bothered
17:20:12 <hppavilion[1]> Except in the context of not telling someone what happens in a trailer within maybe a week of its release IF they express that they haven't seen it yet and don't want to be quote-unquote "spoiled"
17:20:33 <HackEso> hackego # root access? ¯\(°_o)/¯
17:20:36 <hppavilion[1]> kspalaiologos: b_jonas is talking about convoluted hackbot things, I'm talking about the ontology of movie spoilers
17:20:37 <b_jonas> ``` \? hackego # root access
17:20:38 <HackEso> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in all Mexico!
17:21:04 <b_jonas> ``` \? edit # single command
17:21:05 <HackEso> `edit <file> gives you a url, then in your browser: (1) Press Sync (unless making a new file) (2) Make your changes (3) Press Save (4) Paste the command line at the top into the channel.
17:21:17 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: it's a reincarnation
17:21:27 <HackEso> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in all Mexico!
17:21:31 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: it has most of the old one's memory, from one of the backup dumps of the hg repository
17:21:47 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: except the hg log is truncated, I don't know why, so if you look way back in the revisions, you won't find the oldest stuff
17:22:00 <HackEso> hg is dark alchemy used by oerjan to fix things. Like most alchemy, it involves drinking mercury.
17:22:00 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Should someone change the contents of `? HackEgo to match the reincarnation?
17:22:05 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dotjpg3141 * New user account
17:22:06 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/edit/tmp/test.sh
17:22:09 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: no, we have a separate entry
17:22:13 <HackEso> HackEso is almost but not quite unlike HackEgo.
17:22:25 <b_jonas> the HackEgo one is still an accurate description of the old bot
17:22:52 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: I don't think so, that's not a nice thing to edit about the bot that's sleeping but will return when the country needs him the most
17:23:00 <b_jonas> the once and future king will arise
17:23:10 <arseniiv> Hg is alchemy haha. It reifies lead into tin, tin into iron, iron into copper, copper into silver, and silver into gold, and gold you shall not reify nohow
17:23:15 <hppavilion[1]> Is Merlin also destined to return in England's hour of need? I'm not clear on that one
17:23:34 <hppavilion[1]> arseniiv: Applying gallium to aluminum turns the aluminum into basically we tcardboard
17:23:50 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: merlin time travels to the future. don't you read Irregular Webcomic?
17:23:54 <arseniiv> hppavilion[1]: what kind of alchemy is that?
17:24:04 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: I don't know
17:24:15 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: what's a brainfuck assembler?
17:24:27 <hppavilion[1]> Also, what's the exact prophesy on when Arthur will return? Is it specifically *England's* hour of need, or just the UK as a whole?
17:24:41 <kspalaiologos> as the name suggests, the program that's able to serve like a brainfuck-like assembler hooked with a pipe to a brainfuck interpreter
17:25:16 <arseniiv> (hm what reaction there is and where could I watch it)
17:25:41 <hppavilion[1]> arseniiv: Yes you could. Was that a cute 'aww' or a disappointed 'aww'?
17:25:48 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66762&oldid=66759 * Dotjpg3141 * (+110)
17:25:57 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: you can probably try. fizzie seems to have long tolerances, seeing that he hasn't banned me entirely from the bot yet
17:25:58 <arseniiv> I don’t know, that’s why I posted it so long
17:26:13 <hppavilion[1]> arseniiv: Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgXNwLoS-Hw
17:26:23 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ``git: not found
17:26:29 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ``unzip: not found
17:26:30 <b_jonas> ``` \? fetch # kspalaiologos: you should know about that too, besides edit
17:26:31 <HackEso> `fetch [<output-file>] <URL> downloads files, and is the only web access currently available in HackEgo. It is a special builtin that cannot be called from other commands. See also `edit.
17:26:40 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: we have tar and gzip and xz
17:27:04 <kspalaiologos> because github doesn't support downlading tarballs
17:27:24 <hppavilion[1]> Chemistry is like alchemy, except that it's real and interfaces with the laws of economics (meaning if you find a cost-effective way to turn lead into gold, you'll just drop the price of gold)
17:27:25 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: in the worst case, you can uuencode it and put in edit
17:27:46 <b_jonas> but putting it somewhere on the http web and fetching is usually easier
17:27:50 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Did you ever hang out in #xkcd? Or did I confuse you for someone else?
17:27:54 <fizzie> github does support downloading zip files.
17:27:58 <b_jonas> you just need to host it temporarily
17:28:15 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: for a few days, I think. I never participated
17:28:29 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: I was also on one of the xkcd wikis but didn't participate much
17:28:38 <fizzie> Under the "Clone or download v" button, there's a "Download ZIP" option which will just zip up all the repository contents into a file.
17:28:40 <hppavilion[1]> That channel gets a bit toxic occasionally, so I can't blame you if you quit during one of *those* periods
17:28:40 <b_jonas> and on explainxkcd but also didn't participate much
17:28:47 <kspalaiologos> `fetch tmp/test.sh https://hack.esolangs.org/get/tmp/test.sh
17:28:49 <HackEso> 2019-10-23 17:28:48 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/get/tmp/test.sh [130/130] -> "tmp/test.sh" [1]
17:28:59 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ``cd: not found
17:29:12 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: I wonder if I'm conflating your nick with someone else's with a similar name; however, the only person I can think of is VictoriaB, whose old nick started with a 'j'
17:29:15 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cd: not found
17:29:20 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: I'm only on like one or two channel per network on most networks other than freenode
17:29:25 <HackEso> wget https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/archive/v1.1.1.tar.gz \ tar -xzf v1.1.1.tar.gz \ cd asmbf-1.1.1 \ sudo make all install
17:29:33 <fizzie> That's not going to work: there's no networking from inside the machine.
17:29:37 <hppavilion[1]> I really wish hexchat had a way for me to scan two channels for overlap (even attempting on different servers)
17:29:46 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: three backticks and a space
17:30:06 <fizzie> The `fetch is the only thing that's able to fetch anything.
17:30:33 <fizzie> But really, that's just four commands, why would you need to run it as a script inside? Just fetch the file (preferrably into tmp/) and run those one by one.
17:30:41 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think it's an experiment
17:30:46 <lf94> hppavilion[1]: what do you mean
17:30:50 <b_jonas> testing shorter scripts to
17:30:53 <b_jonas> know how longer scripts will work
17:30:56 <fizzie> Well, okay, "sudo" is not going to work either.
17:31:00 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66763&oldid=60732 * Dotjpg3141 * (-45) /* swap x, y */
17:31:00 <arseniiv> <hppavilion[1]> Chemistry is like alchemy, except that it's real and interfaces with the laws of economics (meaning if you find a cost-effective way to turn lead into gold, you'll just drop the price of gold) => agree on both points
17:31:13 <b_jonas> fizzie: wisdom/HackEgo more or less invites you to tryu
17:31:14 <lf94> "I really wish hexchat had a way for me to scan two channels for overlap"
17:31:19 <fizzie> And "make install" probably needs a PREFIX= argument or some-such.
17:31:20 <lf94> overlap of what? text?
17:31:42 <lf94> What is nick overlap? X)
17:31:45 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/edit/tmp/hexdump.hex
17:32:06 <kspalaiologos> `fetch tmp/hexdump.hex https://hack.esolangs.org/get/tmp/hexdump.hex
17:32:08 <HackEso> 2019-10-23 17:32:07 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/get/tmp/hexdump.hex [119404/119404] -> "tmp/hexdump.hex" [1]
17:32:09 <hppavilion[1]> lf94: Like, scan if anyone has the same or similar nick, realname, or hostthing (whatever it is after the '@' in one's full id thing)
17:32:48 <lf94> write a python plugin, it's easy
17:32:49 <hppavilion[1]> 'similar' being defined by some predicate such as case-insensitive levenstein distance
17:33:03 <lf94> I wrote one to turn hexchat into a spy software
17:33:15 <lf94> while I'm in a channel, it will relay all messages to other servers
17:33:54 <lf94> in particular it's useful to have a user relay messages to another channel.
17:34:08 <fizzie> kspalaiologos: If that's a hexdump of the earlier v1.1.1.tar.gz file (like it appears), why in the world would you fetch *that* instead of just fetching the binary file?
17:34:09 <lf94> these days I use weechat though :)
17:34:11 <kspalaiologos> `fetch tmp/test.sh https://hack.esolangs.org/get/tmp/test.sh
17:34:13 <HackEso> 2019-10-23 17:34:12 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/get/tmp/test.sh [93/93] -> "tmp/test.sh" [1]
17:34:55 <HackEso> -BE8SJn_Dnja \ 0KpPun-ahPnp \ 4qubykGwXZAV \ 8bZIQdyoQ_3S \ EGYj6LpQgFKM \ I3ZdY_oWgTHb \ OUT \ X81G5u_N85_r \ a.c \ a.out \ aczO2Vrn8mw1 \ as-encoding \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ hexdump.hex \ iKVic2uB99hI \ input.brachylog \ jeval.whatis \ out \ out.a \ out.a.hd \ out.a.xxd \ paste \ single-word-character-names \ spline \ spout \ spout.raw \ test.sh \ tmp.txt \ uGgIjgPAmv8A
17:35:11 <HackEso> xxd -r hexdump.hex v1.1.1.tar.gz \ tar -xzf v1.1.1.tar.gz \ cd asmbf-1.1.1 \ sudo make all install
17:35:29 <HackEso> tmp/test.sh: line 1: xxd: command not found \ tar (child): v1.1.1.tar.gz: Cannot open: No such file or directory \ tar (child): Error is not recoverable: exiting now \ tar: Child returned status 2 \ tar: Error is not recoverable: exiting now \ tmp/test.sh: line 3: cd: asmbf-1.1.1: No such file or directory \ sudo: effective uid is not 0, is /usr/bin/sudo on a file system with the 'nosuid' option set or an NFS file system without root privilege
17:35:48 <b_jonas> fizzie: because edit doesn't like non-ascii files
17:35:52 <fizzie> "xxd: command not found" happened, and the rest was just cascading errors.
17:35:54 <b_jonas> fizzie: he's fetching from edit as you can see
17:36:14 <fizzie> b_jonas: Yes, but it's just bizarre.
17:36:24 <b_jonas> I did say uunecode, but the young ones don't know how it and ftp ascii mode works
17:36:43 <fizzie> b_jonas: Well, I mean, the point is, the binary file was already available at a web address.
17:36:49 <fizzie> There's no need to round-trip through edit.
17:36:56 <kspalaiologos> `fetch tmp/v1.1.1.tar.gz https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/archive/v1.1.1.tar.gz
17:36:58 <HackEso> 2019-10-23 17:36:57 URL:https://codeload.github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/tar.gz/v1.1.1 [28092] -> "tmp/v1.1.1.tar.gz" [1]
17:37:11 <kspalaiologos> `fetch tmp/test.sh https://hack.esolangs.org/get/tmp/test.sh
17:37:12 <HackEso> 2019-10-23 17:37:11 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/get/tmp/test.sh [60/60] -> "tmp/test.sh" [1]
17:37:17 <HackEso> tar (child): v1.1.1.tar.gz: Cannot open: No such file or directory \ tar (child): Error is not recoverable: exiting now \ tar: Child returned status 2 \ tar: Error is not recoverable: exiting now \ tmp/test.sh: line 2: cd: asmbf-1.1.1: No such file or directory \ sudo: effective uid is not 0, is /usr/bin/sudo on a file system with the 'nosuid' option set or an NFS file system without root privileges?
17:37:28 <HackEso> -BE8SJn_Dnja \ 0KpPun-ahPnp \ 4qubykGwXZAV \ 8bZIQdyoQ_3S \ EGYj6LpQgFKM \ I3ZdY_oWgTHb \ OUT \ X81G5u_N85_r \ a.c \ a.out \ aczO2Vrn8mw1 \ as-encoding \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ hexdump.hex \ iKVic2uB99hI \ input.brachylog \ jeval.whatis \ out \ out.a \ out.a.hd \ out.a.xxd \ paste \ single-word-character-names \ spline \ spout \ spout.raw \ test.sh \ tmp.txt \ uGgIjgPAmv8A \ v1.1.1.tar.gz
17:37:43 <HackEso> sudo: effective uid is not 0, is /usr/bin/sudo on a file system with the 'nosuid' option set or an NFS file system without root privileges?
17:37:56 <kspalaiologos> `fetch tmp/test.sh https://hack.esolangs.org/get/tmp/test.sh
17:37:57 <HackEso> 2019-10-23 17:37:57 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/get/tmp/test.sh [55/55] -> "tmp/test.sh" [1]
17:38:01 <HackEso> sudo: effective uid is not 0, is /usr/bin/sudo on a file system with the 'nosuid' option set or an NFS file system without root privileges? \ make: *** [install] Error 1 \ gcc -Ofast -march=native -funroll-loops -fomit-frame-pointer -w bfasm.c -o bfasm \ gcc -Ofast -march=native -funroll-loops -fomit-frame-pointer -w bfi.c -o bfi \ gcc -Ofast -march=native -funroll-loops -fomit-frame-pointer -w bfintd.c -o bfintd \ gcc -Ofast
17:38:21 <fizzie> `` rm tmp/{-BE8SJn_Dnja,0KpPun-ahPnp,4qubykGwXZAV,8bZIQdyoQ_3S,EGYj6LpQgFKM,I3ZdY_oWgTHb,X81G5u_N85_r,aczO2Vrn8mw1,iKVic2uB99hI,uGgIjgPAmv8A} # just some spring cleaning
17:38:22 <HackEso> rm: cannot remove 'tmp/-BE8SJn_Dnja': Is a directory \ rm: cannot remove 'tmp/0KpPun-ahPnp': Is a directory \ rm: cannot remove 'tmp/8bZIQdyoQ_3S': Is a directory \ rm: cannot remove 'tmp/EGYj6LpQgFKM': Is a directory \ rm: cannot remove 'tmp/I3ZdY_oWgTHb': Is a directory \ rm: cannot remove 'tmp/X81G5u_N85_r': Is a directory \ rm: cannot remove 'tmp/aczO2Vrn8mw1': Is a directory \ rm: cannot remove 'tmp/iKVic2uB99hI': Is a directory \ rm: can
17:38:32 <fizzie> What, they're directories.
17:38:39 <b_jonas> fizzie: some of those might have been me
17:38:55 <HackEso> rmdir: failed to remove 'tmp/EGYj6LpQgFKM': Directory not empty \ rmdir: failed to remove 'tmp/OUT': Not a directory \ rmdir: failed to remove 'tmp/a.c': Not a directory \ rmdir: failed to remove 'tmp/a.out': Not a directory \ rmdir: failed to remove 'tmp/as-encoding': Not a directory \ rmdir: failed to remove 'tmp/asmbf-1.1.1': Directory not empty \ rmdir: failed to remove 'tmp/compiled_brachylog.pl': Not a directory \ rmdir: failed to remove
17:39:04 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ``ls: not found
17:39:08 <HackEso> EGYj6LpQgFKM \ OUT \ a.c \ a.out \ as-encoding \ asmbf-1.1.1 \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ hexdump.hex \ input.brachylog \ jeval.whatis \ out \ out.a \ out.a.hd \ out.a.xxd \ paste \ single-word-character-names \ spline \ spout \ spout.raw \ test.sh \ tmp.txt \ v1.1.1.tar.gz
17:39:16 <HackEso> AUTHORS \ INSTALL \ LICENSE \ Makefile \ NEWS \ README \ TODO \ VERSIONING \ bconv.c \ bfasm.asm \ bfasm.b \ bfasm.c \ bfasm.rs \ bfi.c \ bfintd.c \ bfmake \ bfpp \ bin \ doc \ examples \ labels.pl \ strip.pl \ test \ test.pl
17:39:31 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/edit/tmp/asmbf-1.1.1/Makefile
17:39:49 <kspalaiologos> `fetch tmp/asmbf-1.1.1/Makefile https://hack.esolangs.org/get/tmp/asmbf-1.1.1/Makefile
17:39:50 <HackEso> 2019-10-23 17:39:49 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/get/tmp/asmbf-1.1.1/Makefile [687/687] -> "tmp/asmbf-1.1.1/Makefile" [1]
17:40:01 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: hope you don't have to compile anything big that takes more than like 12 seconds or whatever the command timeout is
17:40:35 <HackEso> cp: cannot create regular file '/bin/bconv': Read-only file system \ cp: cannot create regular file '/bin/bfasm': Read-only file system \ cp: cannot create regular file '/bin/bfi': Read-only file system \ cp: cannot create regular file '/bin/bfintd': Read-only file system \ cp: cannot create regular file '/bin/bfmake': Read-only file system \ cp: cannot create regular file '/bin/bfpp': Read-only file system \ cp: cannot create regular file '/b
17:40:38 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: yeah, the ones that take too much to compile are often also too big to fetch
17:41:01 <fizzie> /hackenv/bin, usually.
17:41:15 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: create a dir under hackenv/lib
17:41:19 <fizzie> In that case, yes, that.
17:41:32 <b_jonas> or under /hackenv/share for the architecture-independent ones
17:41:33 -!- skyplane has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:41:33 -!- skyplane_ has changed nick to skyplane.
17:41:45 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
17:42:00 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: /hackenv/lib
17:42:28 <arseniiv> imode: oh, Noita is by the same author as Baba is You!
17:42:28 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: because we use /hackenv/lib and /hackenv/share as sort of like the user's /usr/local/lib and /usr/local/share
17:42:38 <HackEso> bconv \ bfasm \ bfi \ bfintd \ bfmake \ bfpp \ labels.pl \ strip.pl
17:42:41 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: we're not sysadmins so we can't write to /usr/local
17:42:49 <b_jonas> but /hackenv is our homedir, so we can write under there
17:42:53 <kspalaiologos> so this stuff should probably go to my folder in path
17:42:56 <b_jonas> so we use bin, lib, share under it
17:43:05 <kspalaiologos> but I'll have to modify the scripts though as they might not work with the nesting
17:43:33 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: why? can't you just configure --prefix=/hackenv/lib or make PREFIX=/hackenv/lib or something?
17:43:51 <fizzie> b_jonas: I guess technically the binaries should be in /hackenv/libexec for more FHS-y style.
17:44:18 <fizzie> "/usr/libexec includes internal binaries that are not intended to be executed directly by users or shell scripts."
17:44:19 <b_jonas> fizzie: perhaps. do you know who created /hackenv/share ?
17:44:42 <b_jonas> fizzie: /hackenv is a bit of a mess, with some garbage spread around
17:44:52 <b_jonas> we tend to remove at least the top level stuff, but we don't really have a good hierarchy
17:45:07 <fizzie> A timeout at some point, normally.
17:45:16 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: cp? don't you use symlinks?
17:45:34 <HackEso> bash: oh: command not found
17:45:35 <kspalaiologos> but nobody is interested in my stuff so I program it like for myself
17:45:45 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: sorry, don't symlink
17:45:51 <b_jonas> the source was from tmp, so you can't symlink
17:46:02 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: did you install to tmp?
17:46:09 <b_jonas> that's not a good idea if it has any files other than the binary
17:46:13 <fizzie> b_jonas: It was just built in the source tree and then manually copied over.
17:46:34 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ``bfasm: not found
17:46:46 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ``bfasm: not found
17:46:51 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: if it works, you may also create a wisdom entry so we know what the program is for
17:46:58 <b_jonas> though maybe it has a good --help output or something
17:47:37 <kspalaiologos> can I manually instuct the bot to send eof at the end?
17:47:52 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: a wisdom entry that tells where its source is and a quick synopsis might be helpful then
17:48:08 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: because a month from now, we won't be able to guess where the source is, and we won't want to dive the log to find out
17:48:09 <fizzie> You can do < /dev/null to get an empty stdin with an EOF at the end.
17:48:57 <fizzie> What input? There's no way to type input into the stdin stream.
17:49:15 <b_jonas> you can just enter input with <<<
17:49:25 <HackEso> +>+[<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>>>>>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]<<<<<<]<<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]<<<[-]>[-]>>]<<]
17:49:26 <b_jonas> ``` perl <<<'print "hello, world! " for 1..9'
17:49:27 <HackEso> hello, world! hello, world! hello, world! hello, world! hello, world! hello, world! hello, world! hello, world! hello, world!
17:49:55 <HackEso> `learn creates a wisdom entry and tries to guess which word is the key. Syntax (case insensitive): `learn [a|an|the] <keyword>[s][punctuation] [...]
17:49:59 <HackEso> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past. Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>
17:50:12 <b_jonas> or create a file manually in the wisdom directory with a lowercase name
17:50:48 <b_jonas> but adding a short synopsis should help
17:50:53 <b_jonas> so people can know if they should even check the docs
17:51:25 <kspalaiologos> `learn the bfasm The brainfuck assembler. Documentation and samples: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/master/doc/bfasm.doc
17:51:27 <HackEso> Learned 'bfasm': the bfasm The brainfuck assembler. Documentation and samples: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/master/doc/bfasm.doc
17:51:34 <HackEso> bfasm//the bfasm The brainfuck assembler. Documentation and samples: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/master/doc/bfasm.doc
17:51:49 <HackEso> the bfasm The brainfuck assembler. Documentation and samples: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/master/doc/bfasm.doc
17:52:46 <HackEso> The wiki is at <https://esolangs.org/>.
17:52:56 <HackEso> test failed. HackEgo-JUnit is not available.
17:52:57 <fizzie> The idea is that you can `learn things like "The foomajick is a thingummy.", and then `? foomajick will return that.
17:53:05 <b_jonas> or slashlearn if you're me
17:53:15 <HackEso> Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>
17:53:28 <kspalaiologos> `le//rn bfasm //The brainfuck assembler. Documentation and samples: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/master/doc/bfasm.doc
17:53:30 <HackEso> Learned 'bfasm ': The brainfuck assembler. Documentation and samples: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/master/doc/bfasm.doc
17:53:45 <kspalaiologos> `le//rn bfasm//The brainfuck assembler. Documentation and samples: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/master/doc/bfasm.doc
17:53:47 <HackEso> Relearned 'bfasm': The brainfuck assembler. Documentation and samples: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/master/doc/bfasm.doc
17:53:50 <b_jonas> But in this case, it should say something like "bfasm is the brainfuck assembler..."
17:54:10 <kspalaiologos> `le//rn bfasm//bfasm is the brainfuck assembler. Documentation and samples: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/master/doc/bfasm.doc
17:54:15 <HackEso> Relearned 'bfasm': bfasm is the brainfuck assembler. Documentation and samples: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/master/doc/bfasm.doc
17:54:47 <fizzie> FWIW, you didn't need le//rn for *that*, the "a/an/the" is optional.
17:54:48 <HackEso> bfasm is the brainfuck assembler. Documentation and samples: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/master/doc/bfasm.doc
17:54:51 <HackEso> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
17:55:00 <b_jonas> fizzie: didn't have an "is" before
17:55:14 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: it's just bash syntax. you can use $'\n' if you want
17:55:19 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: see my gcc command
17:56:46 <b_jonas> there are other solutions too of course
17:57:51 <kspalaiologos> ``` bfasm <<<"mov r4,.F$'\n'mov r1,.0$'\n'mov r2,r1$'\n'lbl 1$'\n'out r1$'\n'out r2$'\n'out 32$'\n'mov r3,r1$'\n'eq_ r3,.9$'\n'jnz r3,2$'\n'mov r3,r2$'\n'eq_ r3,.9$'\n'jnz r3,3$'\n'mov r3,r1$'\n'eq_ r3,r4$'\n'jnz r3,5$'\n'lbl 6$'\n'mov r3,r2$'\n'eq_ r3,r4$'\n'jnz r3,4$'\n'inc r2$'\n'jmp 1$'\n'lbl 2$'\n'sub r4,5$'\n'mov r1,r4$'\n'add r4,5$'\n'jmp 1$'\n'lbl 3$'\n'sub r4,5$'\n'mov r2,r4$'\n'add r4,5$'\n'jmp 1$'\n'lbl 4$'\n'inc r1$'\n'mov r2,.0$'\n
17:57:51 <kspalaiologos> 'jmp 1$'\n'lbl 5$'\n'mov r3,r2$'\n'eq_ r3,r4$'\n'jz_ r3,6$'\n'"
17:57:52 <HackEso> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
17:58:09 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: no no, put the whole thing in $'...'
17:58:19 <b_jonas> and then C-like backslash escapes will be interpreted in it
17:58:27 <b_jonas> works good unless you need literal backslashes in your program
17:58:43 <b_jonas> you have to escape those with a backslash
17:59:01 <kspalaiologos> <<<"$'mov r4,.F\nmov r1,.0\nmov r2,r1\nlbl 1\nout r1\nout r2\nout 32\nmov r3,r1\neq_ r3,.9\njnz r3,2\nmov r3,r2\neq_ r3,.9\njnz r3,3\nmov r3,r1\neq_ r3,r4\njnz r3,5\nlbl 6\nmov r3,r2\neq_ r3,r4\njnz r3,4\ninc r2\njmp 1\nlbl 2\nsub r4,5\nmov r1,r4\nadd r4,5\njmp 1\nlbl 3\nsub r4,5\nmov r2,r4\nadd r4,5\njmp 1\nlbl 4\ninc r1\nmov r2,.0\njmp 1\nlbl 5\nmov r3,r2\neq_ r3,r4\njz_ r3,6\n'"
17:59:09 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: but if you have this many newlines, then <<<'....' tr / \\n is almost worth
17:59:19 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: no, drop the double quote
17:59:57 <kspalaiologos> ``` bfasm <<<$'mov r4,.F/mov r1,.0/mov r2,r1/lbl 1/out r1/out r2/out 32/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,2/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,3/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,5/lbl 6/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,4/inc r2/jmp 1/lbl 2/sub r4,5/mov r1,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 3/sub r4,5/mov r2,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 4/inc r1/mov r2,.0/jmp 1/lbl 5/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jz_ r3,6/' tr / \\n
18:00:16 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: um no, tr is a program, you have to pipe its output to bfasm
18:00:33 <kspalaiologos> ``` tr / \\n | bfasm<<<$'mov r4,.F/mov r1,.0/mov r2,r1/lbl 1/out r1/out r2/out 32/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,2/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,3/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,5/lbl 6/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,4/inc r2/jmp 1/lbl 2/sub r4,5/mov r1,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 3/sub r4,5/mov r2,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 4/inc r1/mov r2,.0/jmp 1/lbl 5/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jz_ r3,6/'
18:00:57 <kspalaiologos> ``` tr / \\n <<<$'mov r4,.F/mov r1,.0/mov r2,r1/lbl 1/out r1/out r2/out 32/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,2/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,3/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,5/lbl 6/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,4/inc r2/jmp 1/lbl 2/sub r4,5/mov r1,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 3/sub r4,5/mov r2,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 4/inc r1/mov r2,.0/jmp 1/lbl 5/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jz_ r3,6/' | bfasm
18:00:58 <HackEso> +>+[<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>>>>[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<<[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>[-]<[>+<<+>-]<[>+<-]<]>+<<+<<[>>->+<<<-]>>>[<<<+>>>-]<[->+<<[>>>-<<+<-]>[<+>-]>>[<->[-]]<[<<<+>>>-]<]>>[-]<<<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>.>.>>>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]<<[-]<<[>>+<<<+>-]<[>+<-]>>>>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<[<<<<+>>>>-
18:01:10 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: but now you don't need the dollar sign
18:01:15 <b_jonas> because you're not using backslash escapes
18:02:05 <kspalaiologos> ``` tr / \\n <<<$'mov r4,.F/mov r1,.0/mov r2,r1/lbl 1/out r1/out r2/out 32/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,2/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,3/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,5/lbl 6/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,4/inc r2/jmp 1/lbl 2/sub r4,5/mov r1,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 3/sub r4,5/mov r2,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 4/inc r1/mov r2,.0/jmp 1/lbl 5/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jz_ r3,6/' | bfasm > tmp/test.b
18:02:13 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: yes. save stuff in a file.
18:02:14 <HackEso> bash: bfi: command not found
18:02:40 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: didn't we go through that? we have a brainfuck interpreter in HackEso, one in fungot, and one in lambdabot
18:02:40 <fungot> b_jonas: i dont even know what you mean. interesting, thanks for the link
18:02:59 <b_jonas> `! bf +++++++++++++++++++++[.+]
18:02:59 <HackEso> !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~
18:03:27 <b_jonas> `! bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++[.+]
18:03:28 <HackEso> !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~
18:03:34 <HackEso> ! is a syntax used in Haskell and Prolog for solving evaluation order problems.
18:03:38 <HackEso> `! emulates the ! command of our former bot EgoBot. You write `! then the name of the language then a program, and it runs the program you give and returns the result. We used to use it to test out esoprograms in-channel all the time, but the set of included esolangs is fairly old now and so it's rarely used.
18:03:49 <fizzie> "/hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 file.bf" for running a file.
18:04:00 <fizzie> That's what /hackenv/bin/bf is a wrapper around of.
18:04:12 <kspalaiologos> ``` /hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 /tmp/test.b
18:04:13 <HackEso> /tmp/test.b: No such file or directory
18:04:18 <HackEso> 00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 0A 0B 0C 0D 0E 0F 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 1A 1B 1C 1D 1E 1F 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 2A 2B 2C 2D 2E 2F 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 3A 3B 3C 3D 3E 3F 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 4A 4B 4C 4D 4E 4F 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 5A 5B 5C 5D 5E 5F 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 6A 6B 6C 6D 6E 6F 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 7A 7B 7C 7D 7E 7F 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 8A 8B 8C 8D 8E 8F 90 A0 A1 A2 A3
18:04:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: how do you use bin/bf though?
18:04:51 <HackEso> -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000 2902 Oct 23 18:02 tmp/test.b
18:05:04 <fizzie> Not as big as I expected.
18:05:43 <kspalaiologos> optimizing it for brainfuck size would shave off around 900 bytes
18:07:48 <kspalaiologos> because I feel like i started something and didn't finish it
18:07:48 <fizzie> bin/bf just takes the first command-line argument (so all the input in `bf ...) and handles the ! notation, passing the part before as the file (well, pipe) for egobfi8 to execute, and the part after as the standard input.
18:08:22 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:08:23 <fizzie> `bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<]!scrambled
18:08:39 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/ and enter your wiki username into the field
18:08:41 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>]
18:10:28 <HackEso> total used free shared buff/cache available \ Mem: 252664 3924 245240 0 3500 243980 \ Swap: 0 0 0
18:10:45 <b_jonas> ``` df /hackenv # that much free space on the file system
18:10:46 <HackEso> Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on \ none 24733776 13762932 9701340 59% /hackenv
18:11:02 <fizzie> For hardware, it's pretty soft.
18:11:06 <b_jonas> ``` cat /proc/cpuinfo # and that's what the three layers of virtual machine lies to us about the cpu
18:11:07 <HackEso> processor: 0 \ vendor_id: User Mode Linux \ model name: UML \ mode: skas \ host: Linux dysnomia.zem.fi 4.9.0-5-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 4.9.65-3+deb9u2 (2018-01-04) x86_64 \ bogomips: 5112.62
18:11:08 <fizzie> It's emulated twice over.
18:11:15 <b_jonas> it's still an x86_64, mind you
18:11:35 <fizzie> b_jonas: I wasn't really counting the user/process/filesystem namespace thing.
18:11:53 <b_jonas> once a full machine emulation by the hosting company to the machine that fizzie has root on,
18:12:03 <b_jonas> one layer of user-mode linux
18:12:09 <b_jonas> and I forgot what the third one was
18:12:21 <fizzie> systemd-nspawn, which is all Linux namespaces.
18:12:23 <b_jonas> oh yeah, once with linux namespaces
18:12:30 <b_jonas> ok, I guess you're right, it's emulated only twice
18:12:34 <b_jonas> and sandboxed the third time
18:13:12 <b_jonas> plus runs some other things on the same server
18:13:14 <fizzie> It's the same system where the wiki's running, except the wiki's not in the container. (And obviously not in the UML either.)
18:13:23 <b_jonas> is lambdabot running there too?
18:13:40 <fizzie> Well, I "maintain" it, nowadays.
18:13:41 <b_jonas> the esolangs logs also runs there usually
18:13:45 -!- LKoen has joined.
18:13:46 <b_jonas> and the wiki notification too
18:13:54 <kspalaiologos> also, who is the person behind creating this community
18:14:04 <b_jonas> and, in the future, zemhill will run there too
18:14:25 <fizzie> I mean, there's a lot of overlapping communities.
18:14:33 <b_jonas> creating? I don't know, the details are lots in the mists of time
18:14:47 <fizzie> The IRC channel grew out of the old esolangs mailing list, which grew out of the older esolangs mailing list.
18:15:00 <fizzie> I don't really remember the history of the wiki side of things.
18:15:05 <b_jonas> wait, so that mailing list that kspalaiologos mentioned, that really exists?
18:15:22 <fizzie> There were two I knew of.
18:15:48 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:15:59 <b_jonas> I think ais523 or oerjan created the wiki so that people don't spam en.wikipedia with nonsense articles about esoteric languages
18:16:01 <fizzie> http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/ is the newer one.
18:16:44 <fizzie> Graue was much involved in running the wiki, according to their article from 2005 to 2012.
18:17:26 <fizzie> Before the sange.fi mailing lists, there was another mailing list, but I don't really remember any details about that one.
18:17:39 <b_jonas> yeah, bust be, https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=6 is the first edit there is
18:19:30 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=rights says that ais523 was a wiki admin starting from 2007-03
18:19:32 <fizzie> Oh, right, I think the earlier mailing list was the catseye one.
18:20:12 <fizzie> At least in ~/archive/backup/older/colin/oldhome_old2.tar.gz:old2/Mail/lists/lang-eso I have few emails sent to list@catseye.mb.ca.
18:20:22 <fizzie> (I'm very organized with my files, as you can tell.)
18:20:36 <b_jonas> also oerjan was wiki admin since 2013-07 and you fizzie since 2017-03
18:20:51 <b_jonas> also oerjan was wiki admin since 2013-07 and you fizzie since 2014-03
18:22:29 <b_jonas> we need statues in the garden to know who founded what
18:23:07 <b_jonas> with plaques on them explaining things
18:23:11 <kmc> hello / good morning
18:35:35 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
18:36:21 <b_jonas> so the wiki was created in 2005-04, but the channel is older, because we have logs for 2002-12
18:36:50 <b_jonas> and we do have a discord, despite that wisdom doesn't know about, because the wiki does know about an unofficial Esolangs Discord server
18:38:02 <b_jonas> `slashlearn discord//The unofficial Esolangs and code golf Discord server: https://discord.gg/3UXSK5p
18:38:09 <HackEso> Learned 'discord': The unofficial Esolangs and code golf Discord server: https://discord.gg/3UXSK5p
18:38:11 <HackEso> The unofficial Esolangs and code golf Discord server: https://discord.gg/3UXSK5p
18:38:42 <HackEso> The IOCCC is the Industrial Ordovician COBOL Conference Circuit. Not to be confused with OIC. See also ioccclist.
18:42:36 <lf94> http://leefallat.ca/notes/p-lang/strings-form-a-group.html - thoughts?
18:45:48 <fizzie> b_jonas: The mailing list archive has a few threads on starting up this channel.
18:45:49 <int-e> wtf is "hello"^-1 supposed to be
18:45:54 <fizzie> b_jonas: Search for "Esolang IRC channel" in http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/2002-q4 for example.
18:46:39 <int-e> (never mind that examples are not proofs most of the time)
18:47:25 <int-e> lf94: you(?) should really stop at monoid, while you're ahead.
18:47:57 <lf94> int-e: it's supposed to be a 'negative' string
18:48:31 <lf94> int-e: you're right, I should not use the word proof at all.
18:48:51 <int-e> b_jonas: sure, that's a bonus
18:49:15 <int-e> lf94: whatever it is, it's not a string
18:49:40 <HackEso> String diagrams would be useful in category theory, except they're unreadable due to being curled up in tiny dimensions. Taneb invented them anyhow.
18:50:22 <HackEso> The Fundamental Theorem of Taneb states that for all strings S, if S describes a thing not involving sex, then it is provable that Taneb invented the thing described by S; and, furthermore, that it is provable that there exists a string T that describes a thing not involving sex that Taneb did not invent.
18:50:23 <int-e> the monoid is also left- and right-cancellative
18:50:50 <HackEso> Computer is a language where numbers are strings of the characters '1' and '0'.
18:51:00 <lf94> int-e: It is a string
18:51:07 <lf94> All strings belong in some set S
18:51:19 <int-e> Yeah I'm out of this discussion.
18:51:20 <lf94> this includes "negative strings" that I just made up
18:51:37 <lf94> This is like saying -1 is not a number
18:51:52 <int-e> It's not a natural number.
18:51:53 <HackEso> 564) <elliott> fizzie: It's like a JIT, if JITs were... strings.
18:51:54 <lf94> Why cant -"hello" be a string?
18:52:42 <int-e> lf94: Because strings aren't defined that way. Strings are finite sequences over some alphabet.
18:53:43 <lf94> So what, you want me to call "hello" a natural string, and -"hello" a Z-string or something ("integer string" would be extremely confusing)
18:54:04 <b_jonas> int-e: no no. they're members of the free monoid (semigroup with zero) over an alphabet. the non-algebraic definitions are for kindergarten.
18:54:06 <int-e> If you want to make a fool out of yourself, you're welcome to do that. If you want to re-invent free groups, that's also a viable route, but the objects will no longer be strings.
18:54:22 <lf94> I want to learn :)
18:54:48 <lf94> And I'm ok with being wrong - so you're saying check out free groups - ok.
18:55:20 <lf94> int-e: I understand what you mean by "these arent strings", as in, strings have a very absolute definition
18:55:36 <lf94> So what would you propose to call them?
18:55:47 <lf94> I guess anything other than strings...
18:59:44 <lf94> int-e: thank you :)
18:59:52 <lf94> So definitely a free group
19:02:45 <lf94> actually what I defined does actually correspond to a group
19:03:36 <lf94> "thing is a sentence" * -"is" == -"is" * "thing is a sentence" == "thing a sentence"
19:09:07 <lf94> "An example of an element of the free group on two generators is ab^2a^(-1), which is not equal to b^2."
19:09:20 <lf94> But this is not the case in what I wrote
19:10:08 <lf94> "o" * "h" * "e" * "ll" * -"o" does equal "hell"
19:21:38 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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19:26:39 <ornxka> is forth an esoteric language
19:27:23 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
19:28:49 <imode> if that's the case then we've sent an esolang to space.
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19:43:36 <arseniiv> <lf94> "o" * "h" * "e" * "ll" * -"o" does equal "hell" => seems trickier than free groups, yeah
19:43:56 <lf94> it just removes all instances of "o"
19:44:01 <lf94> pretty simple imo
19:44:09 <arseniiv> if there are many instances of "o" in that *string, which ones would be removed when * -"o"?
19:44:11 <imode> how would you remove just one 'o'.
19:44:35 <imode> brutal. so there are find/replace operations that are not possible.
19:44:46 <lf94> find/replace is something all on its own.
19:44:51 <lf94> That's why I ask the question...
19:44:56 <lf94> At the bottom of my writing
19:44:59 <arseniiv> I wanted to say “rigid” too :D
19:45:09 <lf94> "Maybe strings should be promoted to a more restrictive structure?"
19:45:10 <imode> apart from reordering the operations.
19:45:31 <lf94> Or maybe strings alone are not useful
19:45:43 <lf94> I wanted to explore it with you guys :)
19:46:00 <arseniiv> lf94: what do you mean, more restrictive?
19:46:07 <lf94> more laws to satisfy
19:46:13 <imode> you can reorder the operations such that any 'o' you want to remove just has to be affixed with a * -'o'.
19:46:22 <lf94> So our new structure would "require to implement find/replace"
19:46:43 <imode> so 'h' * 'e' * 'l' * 'l' * 'o' * -'o' * 'o' wouldn't be "helloo", it'd be "hello".
19:46:53 <imode> but this implies an ordering of an operation.
19:46:53 <lf94> Yes, then we have a free group
19:47:08 <imode> I don't believe you do. any deviation from that order gives you a different result.
19:47:22 <lf94> "o" * "h" * -"o" then equals what?
19:47:41 <lf94> In a free group...it equals "oh-o"
19:47:41 <arseniiv> so we need to have some good operations so that find/replace is neatly expressible?
19:47:54 <lf94> in a group, by MY definition, it's "h".
19:48:14 <lf94> arseniiv: yes, preferably 1 operation
19:48:22 <arseniiv> lf94: I think imode proposes deleting the last one occurence
19:48:33 <imode> not really. stepwise application.
19:48:40 <arseniiv> then it would be between free group and deleting all occurrences
19:48:56 <lf94> "hello" ? ("el","zz")
19:49:02 <lf94> But now we are creating a new thing
19:49:12 <lf94> intersection of two sets
19:49:16 <arseniiv> yes, preferably 1 operation => but now we already got two, * and -
19:49:17 <lf94> strings and some pair type
19:49:21 <imode> 'h' * 'e' -> "he". "he" * 'l' * 'l' -> "hell". "hell" * 'o' -> "hello". "hello" * -'o' -> "hell". "hell" * 'o' -> "hello".
19:49:27 <lf94> arseniiv: I mean 1 additional operation :)
19:49:57 <lf94> imode: now what about "ohell" * -"o" ?
19:49:57 <imode> strings with concatenation don't form a group.
19:50:09 <imode> because if they did, then "hello" == "olleh".
19:50:17 <lf94> imode with concat alone, just a monoid, yes
19:50:24 <arseniiv> I have an uncooked esolang Punctree which deals with tree zippers
19:50:37 <lf94> hello is a different string to olleh
19:50:55 <lf94> string zipper?
19:50:57 <imode> but if you're defining a string to be a result of several `*`s, it can't be if it's a group.
19:50:58 <arseniiv> like substitution, which is inconceivable for strings without holes
19:51:14 <lf94> imode: you've lost me :)
19:51:19 <arseniiv> string zipper? => like list zipper, but for list of chars
19:51:32 <lf94> I just remember zipper is some fp structure or function
19:51:50 <imode> ah, I'm wrong. the ordering is relevant, so I'm wrong.
19:52:11 <arseniiv> just a shameless self-something: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Punctree and there are a couple of links added by IIRC int-e
19:52:22 <arseniiv> to pages about zippers specifically
19:52:27 <lf94> I don't get why people say "Shameless plug"
19:52:36 <imode> plugging yourself is seen as shameless.
19:52:43 <imode> s/shameless/shameful
19:52:44 <lf94> Right? So why say it at all?
19:52:45 <arseniiv> so my clumsy description would get more comprehensive
19:52:58 <imode> shameless self promotion fits in the same vein.
19:53:08 <arseniiv> shameless composition with the channel’s continuation
19:53:12 <lf94> It's like saying "excuse my rudeness" *does something extremely rude*
19:53:38 <lf94> IMO linking to your own things is ok. In fact I encourage it, because people dont share their own stuff enough
19:53:39 <arseniiv> lf94: or knocking and then opening the door immediately
19:53:47 <lf94> that's a goodone
19:54:07 <arseniiv> lf94: I agree, people should share their stuff with me so I’ll be a good borg
19:54:20 <lf94> arseniiv: this lang is too alien for me right now :D
19:54:39 <lf94> brain=exploded
19:54:46 <arseniiv> okay but you can believe that there are many neat operations to do on zippers!
19:55:06 <arseniiv> not the real APL, but nonetheless
19:55:31 <arseniiv> then some day you’ll make something with string zippers maybe
19:56:00 <lf94> What are some math operators that take more than 2 operands
19:56:20 <lf94> maybe strings need to be "lifted" to something like a list
19:57:04 <arseniiv> strings are already lists, of characters
19:57:33 <lf94> ["hello ", name, " how are you?"] * ["", " with a hat", ""] == "hello lf94 with a hat how are you?"
19:57:59 <lf94> imo this is a pretty cool
19:58:20 <lf94> getting closer to replace i think
19:58:34 <lf94> So now * is operating on each element
19:58:39 <lf94> like matrix operations
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20:00:05 <lf94> ["hello ", name, " how are you?"] * ["", -"lf94" * "bob", ""] == "hello bob how are you?"
20:00:12 <lf94> very basic replace.
20:00:37 <lf94> the list gives control of position
20:02:07 <lf94> syntax sugar would be required to specify "delete everything"
20:02:26 <lf94> Which would be written as -"a" * -"b" * ... I think
20:03:55 <lf94> "a" * -"a" == ""; "a" * "a" == "aa"; thus -"a" * -"a" = -"aa" ?, which would remove all instances of 2 a's
20:04:13 <oerjan> <shachaf> b_jonas: what's all that about <-- i'd say b_jonas is showing scan-dalous behaviour there
20:05:00 <oerjan> you'd think our resident poetry scanner would know better
20:08:10 <b_jonas> what? "resident poetry scanner"?
20:09:11 <oerjan> who else uploads entire poetry pooks to wikimedia commons...
20:09:21 <b_jonas> those are real poetry, not English stuff
20:09:50 <oerjan> must resist... urge to `addquote
20:10:09 <oerjan> that's no excuse for not knowing scansion
20:10:23 <lf94> man this is cool. "" * "" = ""; "" * -"" = -""; thus "a" * -"" = -"a"; which means -"" will remove everything when applied to any other string.
20:11:09 <oerjan> is this a proper ring twh
20:13:27 <b_jonas> oerjan: English poetry isn't real poetry, they just call it poetry because it's the best replacement that they have for real poetry, which is impossible for English
20:13:35 <b_jonas> and I don't understand how "scansion" or whatever works in it
20:13:56 <b_jonas> apparently it depends on how English pronunciation is supposed to work, which not only I don't understand, but other people don't either
20:14:09 <b_jonas> or at least different people understand it differently
20:14:36 <oerjan> i understand it perfectly well, until i look it up in wiktionary and see i was wrong, or at least a minority
20:14:51 <b_jonas> oerjan: don't believe Wiktionary
20:16:35 <b_jonas> oerjan: try CAAPR, it's a reasonably well done pronunciation list
20:16:46 <b_jonas> a small one, so only common words are in it
20:16:55 <b_jonas> but it's good quality and consistent and well thought out
20:16:59 <b_jonas> even if the notation is a bit weird
20:17:17 <oerjan> "CAAPR: the Comprehensive & Adaptable Aperture Photometry Routine"
20:17:29 <oerjan> i'm sure that will help with pronunciation.
20:18:01 <b_jonas> http://www.wyrdplay.org/AlanBeale/CAAPR-ref.html
20:18:52 <b_jonas> it's compiled by the author of 12dicts ("http://wordlist.aspell.net/12dicts/")
20:19:27 <b_jonas> I mentioned it on this channel a few months ago
20:20:22 <b_jonas> but as for how you go from there to English poetry, I've no idea
20:22:05 <oerjan> i already regret starting this conversation hth
20:22:36 <b_jonas> as for the original topic, feel free to edit that higgedly wisdom of course
20:24:08 <b_jonas> btw, I think my compact camera finally died
20:24:12 <b_jonas> I'll have to buy a new one
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20:54:23 <oerjan> <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: except the hg log is truncated, I don't know why, so if you look way back in the revisions, you won't find the oldest stuff <-- GregorR used to reset history occasionally in the beginning, before we started depending on it being accurate
20:54:55 <oerjan> i think the last time was in 2013 or so
20:54:58 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
20:55:10 <HackEso> 0:2012-02-16 Initïal import.
21:05:05 <b_jonas> ``` hg log -T "{date|shortdate}" -r 1
21:05:19 <b_jonas> (I don't trust revision 0)
21:15:58 <b_jonas> oh, unrelated video game stuff. I think the Game Boy could easily handle a tetris game where the blocks are 7 pixel tall rather than 8. you'd need tiles that combine parts of two blocks in different ways, but it fits in the tiles array with three colors of blocks, and I think the CPU could handle it too (you'd probably need to use sprites for the currently falling block, and update the tiles only during
21:16:38 <b_jonas> the problem with the Game Boy tetris game is that there are only 18 rows, because 20 rows of 8 pixels don't fit in the screen, but you really want at least 20 rows for a tetris game
21:16:51 <b_jonas> and 7 pixels tall, even if unnatural for a game boy game, could do that
21:18:47 <oerjan> <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: cp? don't you use symlinks? <-- you should not put symlinks to tmp/ , everything there is potentially irreversibly deleted at any time
21:20:29 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, I misread the commands. I realized later.
21:21:04 <b_jonas> oerjan: the cp was to install the program from the build directory; I assumed it was already installed under /hackenv/lib and he's just linking it to /hackenv/bin
21:21:21 <b_jonas> but it's a single-file executable, so the cp was all it took to install
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21:40:21 <oerjan> <b_jonas> I think ais523 or oerjan created the wiki so that people don't spam en.wikipedia with nonsense articles about esoteric languages <-- i think you make up things hth
21:42:23 <oerjan> also, some people try to do that anyway
21:43:48 <oerjan> and the actual wikipedia article about esolangs keeps growing dubious examples but i don't dare to prune it because i know someone might be inspired to delete the examples i actually _like_ that don't have their own articles (like Piet)
21:44:12 <oerjan> although some other people have pruned on occasion
21:47:44 <HackEso> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperenchilada about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. Currently located in the Atlantis Exclusion Zone.
21:56:13 <HackEso> Since Biblical times, Forth has been the go-to language for multiplication.
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22:02:38 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; cd wisdom; printf "%s// " *eso*
22:02:38 <HackEso> #esoteric// #esoteric-blah// esosc// esoteric// esoteric files archive// esoterra// esowiki// hackeso// ingesorgeco// mesolang//
22:04:22 <HackEso> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.
22:04:49 <b_jonas> ^ these channels, the ones mentioned in welcome, do we know if they still exist? I wonder if we're sending people to channels that have been gone for five years or something
22:05:05 <b_jonas> perhaps we should send a volunteer to check once every decade
22:05:51 <b_jonas> ``` \? welcome | sed 's/.*((//'
22:05:52 <HackEso> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
22:07:42 <lf94> arseniiv: as I was washing dishes, I remembered what a zipper was.
22:07:50 <lf94> find and replace is complete now.
22:08:24 <lf94> (("hello my big world" % " ") ? "big") * ["", -"", ""] * ["", "small", ""] == "hello my small world"
22:08:47 <lf94> % is split, ? is find (and returns a zipper of [before, found, after]), and the rest we talked about.
22:09:15 <lf94> I think it's also impossible for the line to fail
22:09:24 <lf94> if "big" isnt found, it'll use empty string
22:09:29 <lf94> meaning nothing is replaced
22:10:40 <arseniiv> also maybe add composition of two or several zippers, it would just nest them like a fir
22:11:16 <lf94> Oh yeah and ! is join
22:11:57 <arseniiv> hm how could one insert between fragments?
22:12:41 <arseniiv> like, insert something right before "big" in that example
22:13:09 <arseniiv> ah, we could replace it with "somethingother big"
22:13:50 <arseniiv> (but maybe this profits from a shorter syntax)
22:14:54 <oerjan> <b_jonas> perhaps we should send a volunteer to check once every decade <-- sounds good, i'm sure it's been less than that.
22:18:56 <b_jonas> oerjan: indeed, less than a decade yet
22:20:45 <lf94> arseniiv: yeah exactly
22:21:27 <lf94> ["", "somethingother", ""] * (("hello my big world" % " ") ? "big")
22:22:39 <b_jonas> ``` hg log -T "{rev}:{date}:{desc}\n" -r 378 # this was the commit that first added dalnet
22:22:39 <lf94> so that covers find/replace/insert/delete
22:22:40 <HackEso> 378:1336334759.00:<elliott> learn Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:22:54 <b_jonas> ``` hg log -T "{rev}:{date|shortdate}:{desc}\n" -r 378 # with date
22:22:55 <HackEso> 378:2012-05-06:<elliott> learn Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:23:06 <b_jonas> ``` hg log -T "{rev}:{date|shortdate}:{desc}\n" -r 5372 # and this much more recent one added efnet
22:23:07 <HackEso> 5372:2015-05-24:<oerjan> sed -i \'s/on irc.*/on EFnet or DALnet.)/\' wisdom/welcome
22:23:13 <b_jonas> so both less than a decade ago
22:23:15 <lf94> I guess I can make a text editor now
22:25:46 <b_jonas> then we should schedule the checking of the dalnet one to 2022
22:26:09 <b_jonas> do we have an #esoteric calendar?
22:33:28 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> do we have an #esoteric calendar? => tomorrow is the day of eicosapentation of common/uncommon radices!
22:33:40 <arseniiv> (8 is the common one, 10 is uncommon)
22:34:33 <arseniiv> established since, and up to, eleven
22:36:54 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you mean like, tomorrow is the 25th day of the month?
22:37:06 <b_jonas> I can't make sense of what you mean by all those other numbers
22:37:13 <HackEso> Today is Sweetmorn, the 4th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3185
22:37:26 <arseniiv> I meant to write “comment/uncomment radices” but that’s ungrammatical and too radical
22:37:46 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> I can't make sense of what you mean by all those other numbers => why, you know that october is the eight month
22:38:15 <arseniiv> there’s even a helpful hth in there
22:38:46 <HackEso> hth ([ʰtʰh̩]) is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
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22:39:26 <arseniiv> tomorrow is the 25th day of the month => that’s not esoteric, contrary it’s pretty obvious
22:40:28 <arseniiv> I don’t know if I’m joking or not
22:40:49 <HackEso> Titles J. K. Rowling had specifically denied on her webpage would be the titles of the sixth or seventh Harry Potter book are: Harry Potter and the{ Green Flame Torch, Mountain of Fantasy, Fortress of Shadows, Forest of Shadows, Graveyard of Memories, Pyramids of Furmat, Pillar of Storgé, Toenail of Icklibõgg}.
22:43:33 <arseniiv> hm I wasn’t attentive when read how others asked to show help on commands
22:52:32 <fizzie> Arguably, ddate isn't really a HackE[sg]o command.
22:52:37 <fizzie> It's just the standard ddate.
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22:54:37 <fizzie> If I had /var mounted, we could probably look which package it was coming from, but for some reason the standard umlbox base mount points only include /usr, /bin, /sbin, /lib, /lib32, /lib64, /etc/alternatives and /dev.
22:55:20 <fizzie> I guess a lot of /var doesn't really make sense inside the box though, while having a shared /usr is more normal.
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23:50:35 <Sgeo__> What name would make sense for this operation? a?b = ln(e^a + e^b)
23:50:47 <Sgeo__> By analogy with a*b = ln(e^a * e*b)
23:51:07 <Sgeo__> a?a = a+1. Almost but not quite like making addition repeated '?'
23:54:18 <fizzie> a?a = ln(e^a + e^a) = ln(2e^a) = ln(e^a) + ln(2) = a + ln(2), not a + 1.
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23:56:44 <Sgeo__> Uh. Pretend I said a?b = log_2(2^a + 2^b)
23:58:27 <Sgeo__> Hmm might be fun to find a base such that a?a = a+2
00:02:11 <Sgeo__> Seemed to work in 5?5 = 7, thank you
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02:00:12 <int-e> Sgeo__: the ln-based one is actually fairly easy to implement observing that a?b = max(a,b)?min(a,b), and a?b = a + ln(1 + e^(b-a)) = a + log1p(exp(b-a)) (ensuring a > b first ensures that the exp() doesn't overflow).
02:00:52 <int-e> Sgeo__: (I've read this somewhere, some article about log domain computations. I forgot what the source was, though.)
02:01:36 <int-e> The other point is that using log1p avoids truncation problems from adding 1 to a very small number.
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02:27:08 <Sgeo__> There wouldn't happen to be a logarithm base that keeps its argument constant for all inputs or at least those that are an integer 2 or greater, I assume
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02:29:35 <Sgeo__> What if, instead of getting x?x = x+2 and x?x?x = x+3, I settle for... maybe something like doing the operation 2^a times gets what I want?
02:31:41 <int-e> x?x = x+2 and x?x?x = x+3 doesn't make sense? you can only have one of a^2 = 2 or a^3 = 3.
02:32:06 <int-e> a being the base (don't ask me why I didn't pick b)
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02:47:10 <Sgeo__> I think I want to go back to a?b = log_2(2^a + 2^b). Do that operation 2^n times (or is it 2^n - 1 times?) with x you get x+n
02:53:43 <int-e> log1p(exp2(b-a))/log(2) is ugly though
02:54:39 * Sgeo__ is less looking for implementation prettiness than an answer to If ^ is repeated * and * is repeated +, then + is repeated ?
02:55:30 <int-e> + is repeated "add 1"
02:56:46 <Sgeo__> That's a unary operator though
02:57:13 <int-e> so is "multiply by a" in a^b
02:59:30 <int-e> > let add a b = iterate (+1) a !! b; mul a b = iterate (+a) 0 !! b; pow a b = iterate (*a) 1 !! b -- function iteration is the unifying pattern here, what's not to like?
02:59:32 <lambdabot> not an expression: ‘let add a b = iterate (+1) a !! b; mul a b = iterate...
03:08:06 <int-e> x?y = (x == y ? x + 2 : x + 1) ==> (x?x)?x = x+3.
03:11:33 <int-e> You can't hope for ? to be associative because then x+6 = x?x?x?x?x?x = (x?x?x)?(x?x?x) = (x+3)?(x+3) = x+5.
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03:26:12 <int-e> Sgeo__: Ah why am I making it so complicated. You'd want x+1 = x (one "iteration" of ?).
03:59:06 <esowiki> [[User:Moon/common.js]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66764 * Moon * (+154) Add my wikimap widget so I can easily jump between sites.
04:16:49 <esowiki> [[User:Moon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66765&oldid=49813 * Moon * (+46) Redirected page to [[wikipedia:User:MoonyTheDwarf]]
04:36:16 <esowiki> [[User:Moon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66766&oldid=66765 * Moon * (+15) Move to a landing page that points users toward my esolang talk page, to avoid interwiki chatter.
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07:13:12 <b_jonas> `echo ``` >>share/whatis echo 'ddate(1) - convert Gregorian dates to Discordian dates'
07:13:13 <HackEso> ``` >>share/whatis echo 'ddate(1) - convert Gregorian dates to Discordian dates'
07:13:22 <b_jonas> ``` >>share/whatis echo 'ddate(1) - convert Gregorian dates to Discordian dates'
07:13:26 <HackEso> ddate(1) - convert Gregorian dates to Discordian dates
07:18:59 <b_jonas> as fizzie points out, it's in /usr/bin , so the description goes to the man 1 section, rather than the 1hackeso where the description of hackeso commands go
07:28:03 <b_jonas> Where's the documentation of the ploki language? the wiki doesn't seem to have a link
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08:00:31 <myname> what do you guys think of kitten?
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11:08:58 <wib_jonas> ais523 and other M:tG folks: we are restarting the "vanishing three card blind" M:tG game at www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?601011 , you should consider to participate.
11:10:19 <wib_jonas> Let me tell quickly how this works. Each round, every player secretly chooses a deck of three cards that you'll play. You don't have to buy or borrow the cards, so you can use even the most expensive cards if you want.
11:11:37 <wib_jonas> You send the deck in a message to a trusted organizer. After every player (at least five) chose a deck, the organizer reveals the decks. Then we simulate each ordered pair of two different players independently playing a game of M:tG against each other using their deck.
11:12:41 <wib_jonas> In the game, players don't lose by decking. Everyone has perfect information about hidden cards and hidden decisions. We simulate the games such that each player plays perfectly such that they win the game if they can, or draw if they can't win but can draw.
11:13:58 <wib_jonas> Players get 3 points for a won game and 1 point for a drawn game. Then we add the points each player has got for the round, and the players who have the most points from that round is declared the winner of that round, they get bragging rights, and all cards in the decks are banned from future rounds.
11:14:20 <wib_jonas> Oh, and the most important part. Decks have exactly 3 cards.
11:16:59 <wib_jonas> At the start, all cards released by Wizards are allowed, except for avatar, plane, phenomenon, scheme, conspiracy cards. There are some further rules that come up, such as about randomness and Wishes, but the above are the main rules.
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11:30:23 <esowiki> [[It Online]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66767 * A * (+134) Created page with "[[It Online]] is a language with a weird self-modification scheme. [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:2019]] [[Category:Unimplemented]]"
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11:34:11 <esowiki> [[It Online]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66768&oldid=66767 * A * (+510) Someday in school in math class. Jerry is sitting in the front of Yolanda and in the back of Sophie. Due to her bad sitting habits, Yolanda pushes her desk forward; it seems like she is falling asleep. Since there is less space less for Jerry, Jerry also
11:41:48 <esowiki> [[It Online]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66769&oldid=66768 * A * (+1051)
11:44:40 <esowiki> [[It Online]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66770&oldid=66769 * A * (+409) /* Rules */
11:44:55 <esowiki> [[It Online]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66771&oldid=66770 * A * (+2) /* Overview */
11:46:35 <esowiki> [[It Online]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66772&oldid=66771 * A * (+294)
11:50:23 <esowiki> [[It Online]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66773&oldid=66772 * A * (+96)
11:52:51 <wib_jonas> Oh, and the 5 basic lands and the 15 storage lands are exempt from banning.
11:53:33 <wib_jonas> or maybe the 11 basic lands, I don't know
11:56:42 <esowiki> [[It Online]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66774&oldid=66773 * A * (+695) /* Table of moving directions of atoms */
11:57:05 <esowiki> [[It Online]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66775&oldid=66774 * A * (-47) /* Table of more self-modifying rules */
11:58:22 <esowiki> [[It Online]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66776&oldid=66775 * A * (+108) /* Overview */
11:59:37 <esowiki> [[It Online]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66777&oldid=66776 * A * (+124) /* Table of moving directions of atoms */
12:16:11 <int-e> "all cards in the decks"? even those that lost?
12:16:43 <wib_jonas> int-e: all cards in the decks that won
12:17:04 <wib_jonas> that's usually only one player and two or three cards banned per round, but could be more if there's a tied score
12:17:09 <int-e> ah. ties. of course.
12:18:31 <esowiki> [[It Online]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66778&oldid=66777 * A * (+87) /* Table of moving directions of atoms */
12:18:38 <int-e> . o O ( So this will eventually end in hands full of lands and all draws. Of course people will probably lose interest long before that. )
12:19:39 <esowiki> [[It Online]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66779&oldid=66778 * A * (-86) I am dumb. REMEMBER THAT THE PROGRAM COUNTER CONSUMES AN INSTRUCTION!
12:25:29 <wib_jonas> int-e: only if we play faster than Wizards can release new card
12:26:48 <wib_jonas> int-e: but we only got to 100 banned cards
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14:05:59 <esowiki> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66780&oldid=60898 * Moon * (+40) Add note about language name possibly being taken.
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14:15:46 <esowiki> [[User:Moon/proposed mainpage renovations]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66781 * Moon * (+3072) Copy over mainpage.
14:39:53 <esowiki> [[User:Moon/proposed mainpage renovations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66782&oldid=66781 * Moon * (-2524) Scratch that, i'll rebuild it by hand.
15:02:07 <esowiki> [[User:Moon/proposed mainpage renovations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66783&oldid=66782 * Moon * (+173) if you can read this (I bet you can, IRC watchers) please put ideas for links to go on the right of the introduction on this page's talk page, [[User Talk:Moon/proposed_mainpage_renovations]]
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15:22:16 <esowiki> [[User:Moon/proposed mainpage renovations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66784&oldid=66783 * Moon * (+334) Some links. May need more?
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15:47:11 <esowiki> [[User:Moon/proposed mainpage renovations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66785&oldid=66784 * Moon * (+2)
15:48:06 <esowiki> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66786&oldid=66780 * Moon * (+10) Change the random link to a random language instead of page, as I suspect most users will be interested in a language, not something else.
15:48:31 <esowiki> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66787&oldid=66786 * Moon * (-1) .. -> . (damnit)
15:49:38 <moonheart08> fizzie: you think the small adjustments I've made to the main page are OK?
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16:52:31 <moonheart08> Made some small changes to main page, if you feel like reviewing em
16:53:17 <ais523> that seems like a reasonable enough change
16:54:59 <moonheart08> Working on a full redesign of mp for fun, as well. New page patrol on wikipedia can get boring
17:02:04 <moonheart08> ais523: how much spam does the wiki recieve nowadays? Doesn't seem like much at all
17:02:43 <ais523> basically none at the moment, the "Introduce yourself" thing was very effective because spambot frameworks don't know how to deal with it
17:04:02 <ais523> that said, they've mostly stopped trying now; I don't know whether or not they'd start again if we relaxed the restrictions
17:04:52 <moonheart08> Trial run is always possible. I don't mind watching recent changes for a bit if you do that
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17:09:38 <ais523> I'll wait for some of the other admins to chime in with opinions
17:09:43 <ais523> but it's a fairly easy setting to change
17:10:20 <moonheart08> If I apply for admin, does my opinion count double? /s
17:10:54 <esowiki> [[User:Moon/proposed mainpage renovations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66788&oldid=66785 * Moon * (+247) Testing further layout...
17:12:15 <moonheart08> ais523 that look decent for you? I'm testing on a smallish laptop display, and i'ma bet you have a bigger display.
17:12:58 <ais523> I'm also on a fairly small display, but even so there's a lot of wasted space
17:13:28 <ais523> I guess that isn't automatically a bad thing when it comes to a main page, but I don't really like the look
17:13:30 <moonheart08> Yea.. Trying to figure out what I can put in the top bar. The main section will be similar to the existing layout
17:13:58 <ais523> (also the "demonstrate recursion" link won't actually work on the Main Page itself, due to the code designed for navboxes that highlights the self-link and makes it unclickable)
17:14:35 <moonheart08> (Aw. Luckily that link's probably not final)
17:15:32 <int-e> That joke's been overdone anyway.
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17:23:30 <b_jonas> moonheart08, main page: I think it'd be better not to mention "assuming the name is not already taken". That will give people the idea of giving bad names to esolangs.
17:24:01 <esowiki> [[User:Moon/proposed mainpage renovations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66789&oldid=66788 * Moon * (+274) add 6 more links
17:25:00 <esowiki> [[User:Moon/proposed mainpage renovations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66790&oldid=66789 * Moon * (+28) Uh, 3 links. I ment 3. Add a border.
17:25:29 <b_jonas> moonheart08: will you also improve [[History]]?
17:36:31 <esowiki> [[User:Moon/proposed mainpage renovations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66791&oldid=66790 * Moon * (+445) Box nonsense. Will redo into a template in a bit.. Currently a mess.
17:37:39 <esowiki> [[User:Moon/proposed mainpage renovations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66792&oldid=66791 * Moon * (-24) Remove a border. Too many borders syndrome.
17:41:13 <esowiki> [[User:Moon/proposed mainpage renovations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66793&oldid=66792 * Moon * (-3) Give header a backround so it stands out. Remove extraneous border.
17:43:17 <esowiki> [[User:Moon/proposed mainpage renovations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66794&oldid=66793 * Moon * (+720) For Creators
17:48:09 <esowiki> [[User:Moon/proposed mainpage renovations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66795&oldid=66794 * Moon * (+1675) Next up: Rewrite the contents of these sections, and reconsider which ones should be present. Basic layout /may/ be done now.
18:10:20 <ais523> it's pretty similar to what we have now
18:10:37 <ais523> the featured language should possibly be a bit less prominent because we don't update it very often
18:11:13 <ais523> also, you removed the description of what the site is; that's a) important for new readers and b) probably important for SEO
18:11:32 <b_jonas> I think the featured language is importat, because it will be new for newcomers, and they're the ones reading the main page
18:11:38 <ais523> I think I prefer the original layout
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18:33:20 <kspalaiologos> it would be the best if it involved small amount of calculations
18:36:12 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: Lissajous curves, either ascii art like https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=621188 or PPM?
18:36:14 <lf94> Someone should actually create a real stone with all the 99 bottles of beer samples
18:36:17 <lf94> I would pay for it
18:36:20 <b_jonas> oh, minesweeper may be a good one
18:36:32 <b_jonas> lf94: would one in minecraft work?
18:36:32 <lf94> maybe not stone but steel
18:36:57 <lf94> sorry, not me :) someone else.
18:37:09 <lf94> (I dont have time for that!)
18:37:34 <b_jonas> lf94: google image search gives some images of shelves with 99 bottles of beer
18:38:24 <lf94> kspalaiologos: yes, it's much more enjoyable sitting in #esoteric than chiselling 99 bottles of beer into a rock.
18:38:24 <b_jonas> I have a minesweeper program that I've written for the EL-5120 calculator
18:38:41 <lf94> kspalaiologos: be my guest, though :D
18:38:59 <b_jonas> there's the slight problem that the player can cheat because they can read the contents of variables during prompts, but that's unavoidable given the limitations of the calculator
18:39:09 <b_jonas> I also wrote a maze program
18:39:17 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: what will you do?
18:39:41 <kspalaiologos> I'll start off with brainfuck interpreter obviously
18:39:57 <kspalaiologos> then I'll port my asm2bf infrastructure to TI-Basic or z80 assembly
18:41:32 <kspalaiologos> brainfuck on a calculator is the thing I haven't yet seen in my life
18:43:54 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_implementations and search for "calculator"
18:44:17 <b_jonas> lists several implementations of bf on calculators
18:47:04 <lf94> kspalaiologos: there's gameboy brainfuck interpreter
18:47:10 <lf94> just as "good"
18:48:49 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: also talk to kmc, she does esoteric stuff with TI programmable calculators
18:51:57 <b_jonas> or wait, maybe I'm mixing her with someone else on the channel
18:53:39 <kspalaiologos> seed is fed to mersenne twister, length bytes are taken
18:53:45 <kspalaiologos> stuff is dumped to befunge interpreter and then ran
18:53:59 <kspalaiologos> I took my time to prove that seed is turing complete
18:54:10 <moonheart08> kspalaiologos: a large number of people want your generator :p
18:54:13 <kspalaiologos> and it's somewhere at the bottom of the esolangs page
18:54:48 <kspalaiologos> but I don't feel like runing the fun and spirit of seed
18:55:46 <kspalaiologos> I used to write dozens of Malbolge, Brainfuck and Seed programs for these guys
18:56:20 <moonheart08> I very occasionally do golf in x86-64 assembly
18:56:42 <kmc> b_jonas: not really
18:56:45 <kmc> I did a very long time ago
18:56:49 <kmc> Hooloovo0 does TI stuff though
18:58:12 <kspalaiologos> btw, I'm still getting a daily upvote on doublespeak
18:59:02 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: I presume you use some turing-complete header that reads the length of the program and executes it
18:59:51 <kspalaiologos> my proof is basing on first proving that bytebytejump is turing complete by simulation
19:00:33 <kspalaiologos> and then I do the magic with my ouija board somewhere in the drawer
19:01:22 <kspalaiologos> I didn't simulate brainfuck in befunge and then convert it into seed
19:01:42 <kspalaiologos> the smallest brainfuck interpreter in befunge I could get was way too big to be processed by my generator
19:02:52 <kspalaiologos> while the seed program is usually around 2-4 kilobytes big
19:09:36 <moonheart08> I wonder why interwiki redirects work on esolangs.org, but not wikipedia
19:10:00 <moonheart08> (My esolangs userpage is a redirect, go try it. User:Moon)
19:10:44 <kspalaiologos> and I got redirected, at first i didn't know what happened
19:10:53 <kspalaiologos> after ten or so seconds I realised that I'm on wikipedia now
19:11:37 <moonheart08> I put a helpful header in place, as I realised some might get confused looking for, say, my talk page
19:12:12 <kspalaiologos> but it was too long for me to remember it now or read
19:12:48 <moonheart08> Was ais checking that I had the right to release something into public domain
19:19:58 <b_jonas> ``` \? ais523 # hmm, is this new?
19:19:59 <HackEso> Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
19:21:24 <int-e> "Iä"? I though it was just "I", hmm.
19:22:34 <b_jonas> ``` hg cat -r 4530 wisdom/ais523
19:22:35 <HackEso> ais523 is ais523. This topic may retroactively become more informative if or when Feather is invented.
19:23:38 <HackEso> Mercurial Distributed SCM \ \ list of commands: \ \ add add the specified files on the next commit \ addremove add all new files, delete all missing files \ annotate show changeset information by line for each file \ archive create an unversioned archive of a repository revision \ backout reverse effect of earlier changeset \ bisect subdivision search of changesets \ bookmarks create a new boo
19:24:03 <b_jonas> I was wondering if I should fold quote 1289 into the wisdom about him, but I think it works better as a quote
19:24:26 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: try the quote command of HackEso
19:24:34 <HackEso> 101) <coppro> what's the data of? [...] <Sgeo> Locations in a now deceased game called Mutation <coppro> I have no problems with you being interested in online games <coppro> but the necrophilia is disturbing
19:24:51 <HackEso> Quotes are just elements of the quantum dilapidated bogosphere. See qdb.
19:24:55 <b_jonas> there was one about quote syntax
19:24:58 <kspalaiologos> `addquote <lf94> kspalaiologos: yes, it's much more enjoyable sitting in #esoteric than chiselling 99 bottles of beer into a rock.
19:25:00 <HackEso> addquote(1hackeso) - no description
19:25:02 <HackEso> 1337) <lf94> kspalaiologos: yes, it's much more enjoyable sitting in #esoteric than chiselling 99 bottles of beer into a rock.
19:25:20 <HackEso> 1337) <lf94> kspalaiologos: yes, it's much more enjoyable sitting in #esoteric than chiselling 99 bottles of beer into a rock.
19:25:28 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: yes, some regular always prunes the quote database to be just shy of 1337
19:25:37 <lf94> I'm going to be remembered after I die now.
19:25:46 <HackEso> qdb is used like: `quote; `quote regexp; `quote id; `addquote ...; `delquote id; `pastequotes regexp; `pastenquotes [n]; see also quoteformat
19:25:56 <HackEso> quoteformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two.
19:26:20 <HackEso> 1289) <ais523> hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps
19:26:55 <HackEso> 1336) <kspalaiologos> I have made a chess engine in Malbolge <kspalaiologos> in theory it's decent <kspalaiologos> but it has two drawbacks <kspalaiologos> a) It requires 31 and a half gigabytes of memory <kspalaiologos> b) it's quicker to count atoms in universe than to run it
19:27:03 <b_jonas> ^ you already would have been remembered
19:27:42 <int-e> b_jonas: you're mixing up nicks, I think
19:27:55 <int-e> (just observing. happens to me all the time.)
19:27:56 <kspalaiologos> or I have to write tcl script to send `q with consecutive numbers?
19:28:13 <int-e> b_jonas: lf94 and kspalaiologos
19:28:37 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos added a quote of lf94
19:28:43 <HackEso> 1337) <lf94> kspalaiologos: yes, it's much more enjoyable sitting in #esoteric than chiselling 99 bottles of beer into a rock.
19:29:00 <b_jonas> both of then will be remembered, because both of them are named in that quote
19:29:14 <HackEso> /bin/sed: invalid option -- '1' \ Usage: /bin/sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of script-file to the commands to be executed \ --follow-symlin
19:29:26 <HackEso> 781) <zzo38> Because, if it is all wrong, then I should fix it please \ 839) <sgeo> GreyKnight, shachaf is like a high-level Forth
19:29:33 <b_jonas> but yeah, lf94 wasn't in the qdb before
19:29:37 <HackEso> 421) <monqy> cigaretes and drunking "lame highs for lame people" <oerjan> yeah if it doesn't make you go crazy and shoot at people, it's not worth it. take it from a norwegian. \ 1010) <elliott> sometimes i wake up and my name has grown more consonants
19:29:45 <HackEso> 911) <Sgeo> I feel like (A.~[:i.[:!#) is verbose \ 71) <fax> oklopol geez what are you doing here <oklokok> ...i don't know :< <oklokok> i actually ate until now, although i guess i also did other things...
19:29:56 <kspalaiologos> can I read this stuff without having you to read it with me?
19:30:14 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/quotes
19:30:50 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: logging in to nickserv may help make it respond
19:31:14 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: also you can read in #esoteric-blah , or just `paste quotes or something
19:31:19 <int-e> kspalaiologos: you have
19:31:27 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: you are, but maybe you weren't when you found that it wasn't responding
19:31:31 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/quotes
19:31:39 <int-e> b_jonas: `url is cleaner :P
19:31:55 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/quotes
19:32:02 <HackEso> 839) <sgeo> GreyKnight, shachaf is like a high-level Forth
19:32:12 <HackEso> url(7) - uniform resource identifier (URI), including a URL or URN \ url(1hackeso) - print URL to view contents of a hackenv file \ url(8lambdabot) - no description
19:32:14 <HackEso> paste(1) - merge lines of files \ paste(1p) - merge corresponding or subsequent lines of files \ paste(1hackeso) - print URL to read a file in hackenv through web \ paste(8lambdabot) - no description
19:33:28 <HackEso> 158) <ais523> fizzie: 50kB is quite a lot
19:33:48 <moonheart08> Who would I have to ask to get a extension added to esolangs.org
19:34:14 <int-e> b_jonas: I don't think any regular has been pruning the quotes file to keep it at 1336 or below. I've just repeatedly suggested that we should :P
19:34:34 <b_jonas> int-e: I'm not necessarily saying keeping below, just keeping not much over
19:34:55 <kspalaiologos> 50 kilobytes of malbolge is actually a very small number
19:35:04 <b_jonas> lf94: is your "remembered" reaction because you've written a thesis for a degree and realized that nobody will read it, ever?
19:35:04 <moonheart08> kspalaiologos: Either that, or enable Scribunto so that users can add syntax highlighting to their language(s)
19:35:25 <int-e> b_jonas: https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/quotes <-- shouldn't we be seeing many more delquotes here, though
19:35:42 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: to make the average quote have a higher quality
19:36:02 <int-e> b_jonas: I think the truth is that we've been *very* slow at adding quotes.
19:36:25 <int-e> I'm tempted to change `quote and co to skip that number though. But it sounds like work...
19:36:40 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: ok, take what I'm saying with a large grain of salt, apparently I keep inventing mythology about this community and believing in them
19:37:11 <b_jonas> int-e: that would confuse me a lot, at least the first time, since sometimes I grep -n foobar quotes
19:37:39 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ``tr: not found
19:37:41 <b_jonas> lf94: sorry, it's a rather common human experience, it was worth a shot I think
19:38:11 <int-e> I think you want \\n
19:38:20 <HackEso> +>+[<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<]<<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]<<<[-]>[-]>>]<<]
19:39:21 <imode> that's botspam innit?
19:39:40 <imode> rather, a channel dedicated to botspam.
19:39:40 <int-e> that has bot spam in it
19:40:12 <HackEso> #esoteric-blah blah blah. Blah blah, blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah!
19:40:26 <int-e> orange flavored spam... that's genuinely cringe-worthy.
19:40:38 <imode> int-e: reminds me of dishes made in the 70's.
19:40:41 <int-e> I'd rather have soylent green. I think.
19:40:56 <imode> black spam sounds like blood pudding but mass-produced.
19:41:01 <HackEso> Don't give movie spoilers on channel. If you do, hppavilion may hire a hitman to hunt you down in real life and torture you in refined ways.
19:41:27 <b_jonas> moonheart08: he was here very recently
19:41:51 <moonheart08> int-e: Maybe give soylent green flavored spam a try
19:42:25 <HackEso> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
19:42:32 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: with learn or with le//rn or by creating files in the wisdom directory such that the filename is all lowercase and doesn't end in an s
19:42:45 <HackEso> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past. Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>
19:43:13 <b_jonas> moonheart08: they can, but it's better if they don't, because bin/\? can remove the trailing s
19:43:19 <HackEso> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
19:43:21 <HackEso> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
19:43:25 <int-e> I want to put an actual spoiler in there... Also, sleds are made from people who have been dead all along.
19:43:33 <int-e> Or something along those lines.
19:43:51 <b_jonas> int-e: after the relevant xkcd, it's not funny a second time
19:44:11 <b_jonas> int-e: https://www.xkcd.com/109/
19:44:22 <b_jonas> though coincidentally, the latest xkcd is also about spoilers
19:45:30 -!- sprocklem has joined.
19:45:31 <int-e> It's like other tomes. 2219 xkcds, there's one for every situation.
19:46:26 <moonheart08> Is therr one for someone being smashed by a giant sperm whale?
19:46:52 <b_jonas> moonheart08: there's HHGG for that
19:47:10 <int-e> moonheart08: What b_jonas said.
19:47:27 <int-e> (I'd spell it HHGttG though)
19:47:43 <imode> the pronunciation sounds like someone having a heart attack.
19:47:59 <int-e> moonheart08: The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
19:48:44 <int-e> moonheart08: Where else would you find a falling giant sperm whale?!
19:48:52 <imode> 2hitchikers 2galaxy.
19:48:53 <int-e> (And a pot of petunias.)
19:49:04 <b_jonas> popular on this channel because it's full of crazy English humor, and we have a few English people here
19:49:19 <int-e> (Don't forget the pot of petunias. It's important, as will be revealed at the end.)
19:49:38 <int-e> (Unless you hate the fifth book, in which case it won't be revealed.)
19:52:14 <kspalaiologos> I've read English for around 9000h in my entire life
19:52:29 <imode> it's a subtle humor.
19:53:43 <int-e> Yeah... Germans are renowned for their humor.
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19:54:44 <int-e> It's a matter of misdirection.
19:55:03 <int-e> We Germans are renowned for our humor. :-P
19:56:49 <int-e> (We even have puns!)
19:59:35 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: how about Brexit? that's an example for English humor that isn't subtle. do you understand that one?
20:01:41 <int-e> I'm still wondering what to make of "I've read English for around 9000h in my entire life" -- do you time yourself reading because it's a chore, an item to tick off an todo list?
20:03:55 <kspalaiologos> b_jonas, well, it doesn't involve knowing british culture or word plays, so it's easy to comprehend for me
20:06:30 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: some chapters involve the queen, the lack of constitution, etc. I think those are part of british culture. at least it appears to be more part of british culture than whatever the humor is about wantonly calling into existence a bowl of petunias ten thousand miles over the surface of a planet is.
20:07:37 <int-e> The pot of petunias is just Silly.
20:08:03 <int-e> So, honestly, is a lot of HHGttG
20:08:45 <int-e> But it manages to surprise which is a key element of humor.
20:08:51 <b_jonas> yes, but it's also eminently quotable, in the way that Monty Python is
20:09:34 <int-e> The effect of a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster is like having your brains smashed out by a slice of lemon
20:09:39 <int-e> wrapped round a large gold brick.
20:09:45 <int-e> (pause for effect)
20:10:31 <kspalaiologos> how can I legally protect myself if I wanted to release a keygen to the public?
20:10:42 <kspalaiologos> is saying that I've made it just for serial key recovery
20:10:54 <imode> anonymize yourself the best you can and then release it.
20:11:01 <imode> with that disclaimer. or just don't.
20:11:08 <kspalaiologos> and that you need to own Mathematica to use this program, otherwise it's illegal
20:11:19 <kspalaiologos> if you e.g. lost your serial key or it doesn't work
20:11:44 <int-e> I don't think a court would buy that excuse.
20:11:57 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: we don't give legal advice, and there are no lawyers here, only crazy people and harp tuners
20:11:58 <int-e> I'm also not sure how smart it is to ask this in a publicly logged channel.
20:12:31 <int-e> Well, don't publish the keygen.
20:14:16 <kspalaiologos> on github there is a winrar keygen publicly available though
20:20:02 <int-e> kspalaiologos: https://krebsonsecurity.com/tag/stresser/ is full of examples that a related story for DoS services does not stop authorities from stepping in. (Rather than denial of service, the official purpose is to do stress tests on customer networks. However, the services don't verify whether the customer controls the target address...)
20:26:38 <kspalaiologos> c'mon, who didn't have fun with security in their lives
20:26:45 <kspalaiologos> I had a friend who exploited the store app to get freebies
20:30:55 <b_jonas> if you want actual legal advise, you will have to pay a lawyer
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20:45:47 <b_jonas> biology question. are there spiders that can't make their own web, but that use the web made by a different type of spider for hunting?
20:49:15 <int-e> https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/29cap7/do_spiders_ever_steal_another_spiders_web/
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21:26:05 <int-e> oerjan: Have we seen Violetta like this before? Or possibly somebody else...
21:26:39 <int-e> "I don't know" is an acceptable answer--don't waste your time checking archives.
21:35:30 <int-e> Well, not on my account.
21:35:39 * oerjan trying to check memory
21:37:03 <oerjan> i have this vague feeling that there's someone else.
21:38:17 <oerjan> but it could just be another comic interfering
21:40:54 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
21:41:41 <int-e> We've had crazy potions before (I'm assuming it's a potion), but I'm really unsure about this particular effect. :)
22:05:13 <oerjan> <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: yes, some regular always prunes the quote database to be just shy of 1337 <-- no, they haven't done that, because it's never reached it before.
22:05:32 -!- moonheart08 has joined.
22:12:23 <int-e> I mean, it *is* tempting to follow through with the threat.
22:12:39 <ais523> pick five quotes, delete the worst one
22:12:46 <ais523> unless they're all really good, in which case pick another five
22:12:49 <HackEso> 1/2:232) <elliott> 320 quotes and still not a funny one yet! \ 230) <zzo38> Lymia: I put big spider in my bed already. So if you have no more left you do not have to worry about it anymore. You can just take a cold shower or hot acid or whatever you want to, instead. \ 1271) <coppro> `quote <coppro> `quote <coppro> `quote <coppro> `quote <int-e> ....lovely spam, oh wonderful spam... \ 1056) <kmc> Bike: i think it's a fermented fish product
22:13:37 <ais523> hmm, we only got four quotes, but 230 is the only actually good one there
22:13:46 <ais523> I'm going to delete the other three and see if anyone reverts
22:13:54 <HackEso> *poof* <coppro> `quote <coppro> `quote <coppro> `quote <coppro> `quote <int-e> ....lovely spam, oh wonderful spam...
22:13:59 <HackEso> *poof* <kmc> Bike: i think it's a fermented fish product? <kmc> either that or it means "welcome" in finnish
22:14:10 <HackEso> *poof* <elliott> 320 quotes and still not a funny one yet!
22:14:51 <int-e> ais523: it's `n, not `2, isn't it... `2 is the one that takes a command and shows the 2nd page of its output.
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22:15:07 <ais523> I thought it'd be something like that
22:15:21 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `2: not found
22:15:26 -!- moonheart08 has joined.
22:15:34 <HackEso> 2/2:g ca \ eory with bathroom interior design the other day :-D \ 936) <Sgeo> I was practically raised by Dilbert. \ 264) <Gregor> That's for $literals in the parser. It should maybe be atol too, but probably you shouldn't have nonterminals with more than two billion children.
22:17:28 <ais523> that's kind-of useless as `5 quote isn't deterministic :-)
22:18:13 <int-e> Well, it did *something*
22:18:35 <int-e> And tbh, that was the goal.
22:18:52 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 6: syntax error: unexpected end of file \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 6: syntax error: unexpected end of file \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 6: syntax error: unexpected end of file \ /ha
22:19:06 <HackEso> 1/2:1092) <ais523> until you SPOON \ 119) <pikhq> INTERNET <coppro> YAY <cpressey> Said like a once-drowning man, rescued, taking a breath. \ 236) <oklopol> okay see in my head it went, you send from your other number smth like "i'd certainly like to see you in those pink panties again" and she's like "WHAT?!? Sgeo took a pic?!?!?! that FUCKING PIG" \ 1326) <b_jonas> I don't care for the bf backend as long as it doesn't make the rest of ayac
22:19:12 <HackEso> 2/2:sue \ 815) [after a quote deletion session] <fungot> ais523: i just checked, and the whole purpose of this is not necessary....
22:20:06 <HackEso> 1326) <b_jonas> I don't care for the bf backend as long as it doesn't make the rest of ayacc harder to sue
22:20:19 <ais523> looks like the first line is getting cut off
22:20:50 <int-e> Oh, maybe some of the lengths have not been properly adjusted for HackEso's cloak yet.
22:22:14 <fizzie> I still haven't managed to get to it. :/
22:22:37 <int-e> is it here? https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin/distort#l3
22:23:36 <int-e> > 512 - 2 - length "HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :"
22:24:16 <oerjan> <ais523> `2 <-- that's the wrong command. also there's a bug in the line breaking after HackEso got a cloak.
22:24:17 <int-e> > length "c harder to "
22:24:40 <fizzie> `` echo {a..z}{0..9} | tr -d ' ' | bin/distort | sed -e 's/^\(......\).*\(......\)$/\1\2/'
22:24:41 <HackEso> a0a1a24w5w6w \ 7w8w9xz7z8z9
22:24:59 <fizzie> Hmm, that seems to have been split correctly. Odd.
22:25:11 <fizzie> Oh, right, because it's a balanced split.
22:25:18 <int-e> fizzie: you're not testing the right thing
22:25:36 <oerjan> i managed to select and paste simultaneously
22:26:27 <oerjan> <ais523> I'm going to delete the other three and see if anyone reverts <-- heresy!
22:26:43 <int-e> `` perl -e 'print"x"x459' #this is getting truncated
22:26:44 <HackEso> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
22:26:54 <int-e> after 447 x characters.
22:27:09 <ais523> oerjan: fizzie: opinions on relaxing the signup procedures a little? the spambots have given up, but I'm not sure if they'd start again if they saw a relaxation
22:27:16 <int-e> which sport seems to produce lines of length 459?
22:28:19 <fizzie> int-e: Well, right, but if it wasn't doing that funky balanced split the first test would've been testing a line of whatever maximum length distort uses.
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22:29:49 <int-e> `` sed -i 3s/459/447/ bin/sport
22:29:50 <HackEso> bin/sport//cat "${2:-/dev/stdin}" >tmp/spout.raw; distort tmp/spout.raw | spore "${1-1}"
22:30:21 <int-e> `` sed -i 3s/459/447/ bin/distort
22:30:24 <HackEso> bin/distort//#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys \ N = 447 \ name = sys.argv[1] if len(sys.argv) > 1 else "/dev/stdin" \ with open(name, "r") as f: \ data = ' \\ '.join(f.read().splitlines()) \ s = len(data) \ mw = len(str(2*s/N))-1 \ mw += s > ((N-2)*9-18*mw+1)*((10**mw-1)/9)-mw \ p=0 \ i=1 \ while (p<s): \ lw = N-mw-2-len(`i`) \ print data[p:p+lw] \ i+=1 \ p+=lw
22:30:42 <int-e> (the first one didn't make any change)
22:30:54 <HackEso> 1/2:890) <ais523> in Smalltalk, as in Feather, in order to do I/O, you must first create the universe <Sgeo> ais523, it seems quite capable of I/O... GUI is a form of I/O <ais523> Sgeo: yeah exactly <ais523> where does the GUI come from? <ais523> it's written in Smalltalk, clearly <ais523> and how does the GUI do its I/O? <ais523> if you think about the issue for too long, you end up inventing Feather \ 873) <fungot> ais523: intercal-72
22:31:02 <HackEso> 2/2:c-intercal clc-intercal j-intercal yes all versions all versions \ 880) <fizzie> What I learned on the Prolog course is that it's a good language if you need a thing that can say "No" a lot. \ 747) <itidus21> you are like the linux torvalds of quiz engines \ 408) <Vorpal> ais523, how are we supposed to guess before you tell us unless you give us more hints?
22:31:14 <HackEso> 873) <fungot> ais523: intercal-72 c-intercal clc-intercal j-intercal yes all versions all versions
22:32:05 <int-e> I don't know whether 447 or 448 is right, so I'm going with 447.
22:32:09 <fizzie> int-e: Thing is, the N in there isn't the maximum length of the line it uses.
22:32:45 <int-e> it surely looks like that is what it's intended to be
22:32:56 <int-e> given all the compensation on line 13
22:33:11 <fizzie> `` echo {a..z}{a..z} | tr -d ' ' | cut -c 1-886 | bin/distort | sed -e 's/^\(......\).*\(......\)$/\1..\2/'
22:33:12 <HackEso> aaabac..kilimi \ nioipi..qyqzra
22:33:16 <fizzie> `` echo {a..z}{a..z} | tr -d ' ' | cut -c 1-888 | bin/distort | sed -e 's/^\(......\).*\(......\)$/\1..\2/'
22:33:17 <HackEso> aaabac..kilimi \ nioipi..qyqzra \ rb
22:33:40 <fizzie> 886 characters (2*443) gets split to two lines; 888 (2*444) gets split to three lines.
22:34:05 <fizzie> If it was using (now) a line length of 447, it would accept a line of 894 characters and split it to two.
22:34:42 <int-e> I think there's just an off-by-one error in there
22:34:52 <oerjan> fizzie: distort sets off space for a line number prefix
22:35:05 <int-e> line 13, the -2 should be -3 to account for /, ) and an extra space.
22:35:27 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin/distort
22:36:01 <int-e> it does account for the width of the current line number, and of the total line numbers.
22:36:03 <fizzie> Oh, it does that as well? So complicated.
22:36:36 <int-e> I should write "it does seem to account"
22:37:02 <int-e> because I'm not really sure what happens on line 9.
22:38:04 <fizzie> Well, it's good enough for now.
22:38:45 <int-e> is there anything else that needs to know about the maximum message length...
22:39:46 <fizzie> The bot itself, arguably. Although I'm not sure how much that truncation matters.
22:40:05 <fizzie> https://bitbucket.org/fizzie/hackbot/src/tip/multibot_cmds/PRIVMSG/tr_60.cmd#lines-64
22:40:16 <fizzie> Not that you could edit that from the inside.
22:41:57 <fizzie> I guess it does matter in the sense that it prevents incomplete utf-8 sequences in utf-8 text that has not been passed through distort.
22:42:29 <int-e> 448 is probably the right value there.
22:43:12 <esowiki> [[Acyclic Tag]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66796 * Ais523 * (+14796) new language!
22:43:30 <oerjan> int-e: mw is the width of the literal for the number of lines.
22:43:36 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66797&oldid=66682 * Ais523 * (+18) /* A */ +[[Acyclic Tag]]
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22:43:57 <esowiki> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66798&oldid=59712 * Ais523 * (+17) +[[Acyclic Tag]]
22:44:25 <fizzie> `perl-e printf "x"x449 . "ä";
22:44:26 <HackEso> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
22:44:33 <fizzie> `perl-e printf "x"x448 . "ä";
22:44:34 <HackEso> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
22:44:38 <oerjan> line 8 makes an approximation that is sometimes 1 too low, and line 9 checks if it is.
22:44:41 <int-e> oerjan: Yeah. And line 9 actually does some geometric series stuff to compute how many digits in total we'll save because we start counting in single digit numbers.
22:45:08 <fizzie> `perl-e printf "x"x447 . "ä"; # just one more try
22:45:08 <HackEso> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
22:45:12 <int-e> fizzie: Oh, darn, I had already verified that this got cut off and 447, not 448 chracters.
22:45:15 <ais523> you know how we normally use cyclic tag to prove queue-based systems TC? sometimes it turns out to be too hard to impl in a particularly esoteric language, so I'm looking even simpler
22:45:39 <fizzie> int-e: Should distort then be 446, and truncate 447?
22:45:50 <ais523> I've probably spent over a week on Acyclic Tag
22:46:28 <fizzie> (Just wondering, because previously we had distort at 459 and truncate at 460.)
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22:46:44 <ais523> the big improvement is that you don't have to be able to implement the wrapping from end to start of the table of productions
22:47:15 <oerjan> <int-e> line 13, the -2 should be -3 to account for /, ) and an extra space. <-- it's just /, : and no extra space
22:48:45 <int-e> I got confused by stuff like 1/2:205)
22:49:43 <int-e> `` perl -e 'printf "x"x886' | sport
22:49:44 <HackEso> 1/2:xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
22:49:48 <HackEso> 2/2:xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
22:51:01 <int-e> `` perl -e 'printf "x"x887' | distory | wc
22:51:02 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: distory: command not found \ 0 0 0
22:51:07 <int-e> `` perl -e 'printf "x"x887' | distort | wc
22:57:55 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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22:59:17 <oerjan> iirc line 9 basically works by calculating the maximal data length that could fit with that mw, and seeing if it's too small.
22:59:42 <int-e> line 9 sums a geometric series
23:00:25 <int-e> To ensure that mw really is the maximum width, and not accidently too large by 1.
23:01:12 <oerjan> surely it's too small by 1. it's adding a boolean, after all.
23:03:40 <oerjan> at least i had the foresight to make N a named variable for these occasions :P
23:05:53 <int-e> So the computation computes the length of the string that we can accomodate in 10^mw - 1 lines of output, where mw is the tentative value computed on line 8. If the string is longer than that, we increase mw by 1.
23:06:42 <int-e> Writing it as ((N-2)-2*mw)*(10**mw-1) + (10**mw-1)/9 - mw makes it somewhat easier to digest (for me at least).
23:08:59 <int-e> ((N-2)-2*mw)*(10**mw-1) is how many characters we can accomodate if all numbers 1..10^mw-1 are mw characters wide; (10**mw-1)/9 - mw sums (10**i-1)/9 - 1 for i = 1..mw, which is the number of extra characters that we gain because some numbers are shorter than mw digits.
23:10:26 <int-e> oerjan: You wrote this, apparently :)
23:10:49 <oerjan> yes. doesn't mean i recall exactly how i deduced the formula, but that sounds about right.
23:11:57 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/bin/distort
23:15:57 <HackEso> Cubes come in all sizes, colors, and materials, but only one shape.
23:16:27 <imode> I can't argue with that.
23:17:08 <HackEso> companion cube:There's cake inside it. Tear it apart, rip open your companion, and extract the delicious, delicious cake... \ mpanion cube:Aperture Science has created a talking cube - we call it the mpanion cube, because it's the opposite of the mute companion cube.
23:18:41 <ais523> an mpanion cube would be a time-reversed companion cube, wouldn't it?
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00:20:16 <shachaf> Wy would co be time-reversing?
00:21:36 <ais523> well, it normally produces duals
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00:31:04 <shachaf> I guess time-reversing seems like an odd sort of dual here.
00:31:23 <shachaf> I like the way in 2-categories you have two different kinds of duals, which are called co and op.
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01:28:22 <lf94> what's the practical use of "cubical type systems" guys?
01:28:45 <lf94> easier to describe more complex types, rigorously?
01:28:47 <kmc> what's a cubical type system
01:29:18 <lf94> if i'm remembering correctly... something derived from homotopy type theory...
01:29:26 <lf94> which is about types in the realm of homotopy
01:29:30 <kmc> `quote lambda cube
01:29:31 <HackEso> 886) <shachaf> FOUR SIMULTANEOUS TYPE SYSTEMS IN A SINGLE ROTATION OF THE LAMBDA CUBE
01:29:36 <lf94> no, it isnt lambda cube
01:29:40 <kmc> unfortunately I don't understand HoTT at all
01:29:42 <kmc> so cannot help you
01:30:02 <lf94> from what I understand HoTT is defining types as a start and an end
01:30:11 <lf94> and then you get all the types inbetween for free or something...
01:30:47 <lf94> so imagine you have a type a -> b, and another type c -> d, well you can somehow get types inbetween these two...
01:31:04 <lf94> i'm probably totally fucking botching the definition. :)
01:31:07 -!- imode has joined.
01:34:25 <kmc> maybe shachaf understands HoTT
02:02:39 <shachaf> I sure don't understand cubical types.
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06:16:38 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66799&oldid=66643 * JonoCode9374 * (+84) /* Fibonacci sequence */
06:44:59 <b_jonas> fizzie, int-e, oerjan, re line length: (1) note that some irc clients (some versions of xchat) ask for that obsolete feature by default where the server puts a "-" or "+" character before the message, that takes an additional char, and
06:46:59 <b_jonas> (2) use the environment variables $IRC_CHANNEL and $IRC_NICK to determine the length of the target; note that if $IRC_CHANNEL doesn't start with one of # or @ or + then it's a nick and $IRC_NICK will be the target of the reply
07:12:14 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving).
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08:06:01 <cpressey> Good morning. I almost almost almost have another esolang.
08:07:24 <shachaf> Is (almost almost) almost = almost (almost almost)?
08:10:40 <cpressey> It probably probably probably is.
08:14:07 <int-e> shachaf: is that free association?
10:13:13 -!- morioka has joined.
10:28:48 <Taneb> shachaf: I think that those are two different things
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12:28:49 <arseniiv> @tell ais523 I think ^ is described a bit incomprehensive on Acyclic tag page: what does “one command at a time” mean if the pointer points to a string of commands and there is no sub-pointer to count commands in that string
12:29:30 <arseniiv> hm maybe it was already noted…
13:56:15 -!- kspalaiologos has joined.
14:14:47 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mechafinch * New user account
14:15:23 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ``sport: not found
14:15:34 <HackEso> sport <n> divides its input into irc-sized pieces and displays the nth (default first). The pipe version of `1. See also spore.
14:17:51 <kspalaiologos> ``` asmbf <<<"mov r4,.F/mov r1,.0/mov r2,r1/lbl 1/out r1/out r2/out 32/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,2/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,3/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,5/lbl 6/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,4/inc r2/jmp 1/lbl 2/sub r4,5/mov r1,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 3/sub r4,5/mov r2,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 4/inc r1/mov r2,.0/jmp 1/lbl 5/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jz_ r3,6"
14:17:51 <HackEso> +>+[<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>>>>[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<<[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>[-]<[>+<<+>-]<[>+<-]<]>+<<+<<[>>->+<<<-]>>>[<<<+>>>-]<[->+<<[>>>-<<+<-]>[<+>-]>>[<->[-]]<[<<<+>>>-]<]>>[-]<<<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>.>.>>>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]<<[-]<<[>>+<<<+>-]<[>+<-]>>>>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<[<<<<+>>>>-
14:18:13 <HackEso> cat: /hackeso/bin/asmbf: No such file or directory
14:18:27 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ``cat: not found
14:19:05 <kspalaiologos> ```asmbf <<<"mov r4,.F/mov r1,.0/mov r2,r1/lbl 1/out r1/out r2/out 32/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,2/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,3/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,5/lbl 6/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,4/inc r2/jmp 1/lbl 2/sub r4,5/mov r1,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 3/sub r4,5/mov r2,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 4/inc r1/mov r2,.0/jmp 1/lbl 5/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jz_ r3,6"
14:19:06 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ``asmbf: not found
14:19:11 <kspalaiologos> ``` asmbf <<<"mov r4,.F/mov r1,.0/mov r2,r1/lbl 1/out r1/out r2/out 32/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,2/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,3/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,5/lbl 6/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,4/inc r2/jmp 1/lbl 2/sub r4,5/mov r1,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 3/sub r4,5/mov r2,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 4/inc r1/mov r2,.0/jmp 1/lbl 5/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jz_ r3,6"
14:19:11 <HackEso> +>+[<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>>>>[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<<[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>[-]<[>+<<+>-]<[>+<-]<]>+<<+<<[>>->+<<<-]>>>[<<<+>>>-]<[->+<<[>>>-<<+<-]>[<+>-]>>[<->[-]]<[<<<+>>>-]<]>>[-]<<<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>.>.>>>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]<<[-]<<[>>+<<<+>-]<[>+<-]>>>>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<[<<<<+>>>>-
14:19:17 <kspalaiologos> ``` asmbf <<<"mov r4,.F/mov r1,.0/mov r2,r1/lbl 1/out r1/out r2/out 32/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,2/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,3/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,5/lbl 6/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,4/inc r2/jmp 1/lbl 2/sub r4,5/mov r1,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 3/sub r4,5/mov r2,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 4/inc r1/mov r2,.0/jmp 1/lbl 5/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jz_ r3,6" | sport
14:19:18 <HackEso> 1/7:+>+[<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>>>>[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<<[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>[-]<[>+<<+>-]<[>+<-]<]>+<<+<<[>>->+<<<-]>>>[<<<+>>>-]<[->+<<[>>>-<<+<-]>[<+>-]>>[<->[-]]<[<<<+>>>-]<]>>[-]<<<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>.>.>>>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]<<[-]<<[>>+<<<+>-]<[>+<-]>>>>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<[<<<<+>>>>
14:19:38 <kspalaiologos> ``` asmbf <<<"mov r4,.F/mov r1,.0/mov r2,r1/lbl 1/out r1/out r2/out 32/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,2/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,3/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,5/lbl 6/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,4/inc r2/jmp 1/lbl 2/sub r4,5/mov r1,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 3/sub r4,5/mov r2,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 4/inc r1/mov r2,.0/jmp 1/lbl 5/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jz_ r3,6" | sport 7
14:19:39 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))).
14:19:39 <HackEso> 7/7:<<<<<-<+>>>>>>-]<<<<<<[>>>>>>+<<<<<<-]>[>>>>-<<<<[-]]>>>>>>++++++<<<<<<+>>>>[<<<<[-]<+>>>>>-]<<<<<[>>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<<<[-]>[-]>>>>>>>>[<<<<<<<<+>+>>>>>>>-]<<<<<<<[>>>>>>>+<<<<<<<-]>[-]]>>>>>>[-]<<<<<<]<<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]<<<[-]>[-]>>]<<]
14:22:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66800&oldid=66762 * Mechafinch * (+363) /* Introductions */
14:48:59 <wib_jonas> fizzie: ^ Sigyn k-lined kspalaiologos
14:53:00 <fizzie> Hmm, that's not great.
14:54:06 <fizzie> I guess the whitelisting doesn't (and can't) really cover the case of people talking to the bot, in addition to the bot talking to people.
14:55:00 <wib_jonas> heck, it's just unlucky timing that this caught him before it caught me
14:55:09 <fizzie> Hmm, I think I'm too late for this:
14:55:09 <wib_jonas> I spam the channel way more than that
14:55:19 <fizzie> "If opped in your channel you can ask Sigyn to unkline an user, /msg Sigyn unkline <nick>, you have a dozen minutes to do so after the kill/kline, it only works if the user was banned due to abuse detected in your channel."
14:55:24 <fizzie> Guess it's still worth a try.
14:55:26 <wib_jonas> definitely too late, because the k-line isn't easy to undo
14:55:46 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
14:56:08 <fizzie> 15:55 <Sigyn> 'kspalaiologos' does not match any recent bans from #esoteric
14:56:22 <wib_jonas> check if you've typoed his name, I always do
14:56:22 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
14:56:50 <fizzie> No, from the k-line message.
14:56:53 <int-e> it's been more than a dozen minutes, unfortunately
14:57:23 <fizzie> Yes, I was hoping "dozen" was the sort of very rough approximation.
14:57:51 <wib_jonas> at least kspalaiologos is still reading the logs
14:58:19 <wib_jonas> ideally we should teach one of our bots to recognize that particular spammer who was the reason why you invited Sigyn
14:59:45 -!- ornxka has changed nick to notabotiswear.
15:00:03 <fizzie> Do you know if those kills are temporary? Looking at the code, there's some references to a "duration".
15:00:20 -!- notabotiswear has changed nick to normalcomputerus.
15:00:52 -!- normalcomputerus has changed nick to ornxka.
15:00:57 <wib_jonas> fizzie: I don't know, maybe ask #freenode or FireFly
15:01:12 <fizzie> I think it looks like they are, but I can't tell how long they are because that depends how they're configured it.
15:01:39 <wib_jonas> I mean, of course it's temporary compared to the heat death of the universe, the question is the scale
15:02:42 <fizzie> Arguably that testing would've probably been better on #esoteric-blah, but I don't think we want to be kline-strict about that sort of thing.
15:03:11 <wib_jonas> kicking and banning for 15 minutes it is fine
15:03:20 <wib_jonas> which is why a bot that you control could do it
15:03:23 <cpressey> On the bright side, "(Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.)))" looks like some kind of S-expression. At least there's that.
15:05:10 <fizzie> Should we ask Sigyn to leave for now? I don't even know if there's a standard self-service way to do that.
15:05:43 <wib_jonas> fizzie: kicking them probably makes them leave
15:05:50 <wib_jonas> if not, then kickbanning them should
15:06:22 <fizzie> Sounds plausible. Opinions? Is it too unsafe to have, given the sort of thing this channel does?
15:06:39 <wib_jonas> Sigyn: fizzie would like to ask you to leave now
15:08:22 -!- kspalaiologos1 has joined.
15:09:12 <wib_jonas> kspalaiologos1: the real kspalaiologos got k-lined. if you're the same person, you probably shouldn't sneak back in because freenode may get angry about k-line evasion
15:09:29 <wib_jonas> kspalaiologos1: Sigyn is a bot that tries to catch spammers, let me find in the channel logs where we discussed it
15:10:09 <wib_jonas> started https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-10.html#ljbb
15:10:24 <wib_jonas> kspalaiologos1: a ban from the whole network, as opposed to a ban that bans only from a channel
15:10:36 <wib_jonas> there are also lines with other letters that I don't follow
15:11:51 <int-e> fizzie: the real target(s) never showed up :/
15:11:52 <wib_jonas> https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-10.html#lKx and https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-10.html#lEq were the earlier spam
15:12:45 <wib_jonas> I'm just saying that after those things, fizzie got annoyed and invited Sigyn in
15:12:51 <wib_jonas> as you can see https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-10.html#ljbb
15:12:56 <wib_jonas> kspalaiologos1: I don't think anyone did
15:13:10 <kspalaiologos1> I remembed someone did after taking a peek at the logs
15:14:06 <wib_jonas> int-e: they may be waiting, it's only been two weeks; or they may have showed up but got scared of Sigyn and left
15:14:23 <int-e> wib_jonas: there is that possibility.
15:14:51 <wib_jonas> int-e: there were four or five days when he didn't show up before the spam that made fizzie invite Sigyn
15:15:24 <wib_jonas> kspalaiologos1: it's not that I recognize you specifically, but I can distinguish you from someone who spams yellow JS JS JS
15:15:57 <kspalaiologos1> i constantly find people trying to annoy me, lie away my rep
15:16:53 <kspalaiologos1> I've already sent a kind letter to the kline at freenode
15:17:09 <int-e> will Sigyn trigger on any bfasm attempt now, I wonder
15:17:16 <int-e> (and no, I won't try!)
15:18:11 <wib_jonas> hopefully kspalaiologos will now be more cautious and experiment in either private message or some other channel
15:19:32 <wib_jonas> though what channel there is where you can spam j-bot now I've no idea, because it doesn't seem to be in either #ijx or #jeval, the two botspam channels that we used to use
15:19:49 <wib_jonas> but it does accept private message, with slightly different confusing syntax
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15:29:05 <fizzie> Yeah, let's maybe try ask Sigyn to leave (feel a bit bad for wasting Freenode op time for the whitelists, but I guess that's what they're there for) and if we get spam problems, investigate something a little less drastic. Just a shame there doesn't seem to be an easy way to get the benefits (outsourced spamminess detection, network-level kills from real spamming).
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15:30:07 -!- fizzie has kicked Sigyn Really sorry about this, don't take it personally....
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15:57:39 <kspalaiologos> my IRC client was trying to reconnect me since 4pm every 10 seconds
16:01:47 <fizzie> kspalaiologos: We had help from a Freenode/Sigyn administrator to undo the kline.
16:09:40 <glguy> kspalaiologos: You should have gotten a response to your support ticket from me.
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16:15:04 <glguy> It's just good to know if the responses aren't working in case you have some trouble in the future :)
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16:43:56 <lf94> How do natural languages get their names?
16:44:16 <lf94> English, Francais, ...
16:47:29 <FaeFly> from the people who nominally speak them, usually?
16:47:45 <FaeFly> e.g. the English speak English
16:48:16 <imode> I think he was expecting the etymology behind the names.
16:49:42 <FaeFly> Well, sure, but I would expect all the different peoples' names to have different etymologies, I don't think there's really a collective answer there
16:49:53 <imode> lf94: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=etymology%20of%20the%20word%20english
16:50:06 <imode> the infobox is useful.
16:50:23 * FaeFly is looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxons#Ethnonym
16:51:01 <imode> I can see how that can be twisted into "English"
16:51:24 <lf94> https://www.etymonline.com/word/English?ref=etymonline_crossreference
16:51:26 <lf94> this is way better
16:51:29 <FaeFly> oh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angles#Name is probably better
16:51:33 <lf94> England -> English
16:51:43 <lf94> I'm sure of it
16:52:21 <imode> huh, wasn't aware of the anglia penninsula.
16:52:32 <lf94> I'm defining "the language of internet citizens"
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16:52:59 <imode> how can you define that which is all.
16:53:11 <FaeFly> (I wonder if 'Onlinean' would be pronounced "online|ean" or "on|linnean")
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16:54:32 <lf94> https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=french
16:54:44 <lf94> They almost literally did "frenish" too
16:55:00 <lf94> A similar contraction of -ish is in Dutch, Scotch, Welsh,
16:55:40 <lf94> this website is fuckin' awesome
16:55:47 <FaeFly> yes, etymonline si nice
16:56:22 <lf94> So if we "live" in the "realm" of say, an array or list programming paradigm...
16:56:33 <lf94> listch could be a good language name
16:57:53 <lf94> arrich is easier to hear
16:57:53 <FaeFly> the swedish name for Sweden ("Sverige") stems from "Svea rike", which is lit. "realm of Svea" (the tribe that ended up uniting the different parts of modern-day sweden basically)
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17:05:16 <lf94> conveyich <- conveyor belt (array) based lang B)
17:05:51 <imode> otherwise known as mode.
17:06:14 <lf94> imo if you called it conveyich it'd be easier to remember
17:07:24 <FaeFly> conveyor belt? reminds me of Rube
17:08:45 <imode> lf94: we'll start a fork and call it conveyich.
17:09:01 <imode> then I can sell conveyich ++ premium features as mode for $19.99 + tax.
17:09:19 <imode> what could go wrong.
17:09:53 <lf94> i would like to see pay-for language examples.
17:10:18 <lf94> I've only seen things like lisp or scheme interpreters be paid-for
17:10:33 <imode> forth implementations have sometimes been paid-for.
17:11:08 <imode> I'm working on ways to specify and consume arrays.
17:11:55 <imode> i.e ` : range [ dup$ roll until $0 do dup$ $1 - repeat drop last ] ;
17:12:11 <imode> inserts the proper markers in the queue.
17:13:14 <lf94> imode lists / matrix languages are the future I think
17:13:41 <imode> languages with semantics and implementations you can hold in your head are the future.
17:13:53 <imode> because you can't lose track of them.
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17:36:39 <ais523> arseniiv: well, the point is that it doesn't push the string as a whole onto the queue, rather it pushes each command in the string onto the queue
17:37:56 <arseniiv> ais523: ah. (But that one was obvious for me personally.) But maybe it would be good to rephrase differently anyway
17:38:07 <esowiki> [[Acyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66801&oldid=66796 * Ais523 * (+13) is this description of ^ clearer?
17:38:25 <ais523> is that a better description?
17:40:36 <arseniiv> anyway this reminds me my pages usually lack usual examples which would be useful to understand what do commands mean; your trace immediately gave me a clear image what ^ does
17:45:37 <b_jonas> lf94: (1) sometimes you have to pay for the language standard, or learn from secondary sources. this is the case for Standard ML.
17:45:50 <b_jonas> lf94: (2) paying for the compiler is more common:
17:46:38 <b_jonas> large business users have to pay for microsoft's compiler
17:46:53 <b_jonas> there's a commercial prolog implementation
17:47:02 <b_jonas> you have to pay for Mathematica and for maple
17:47:27 <b_jonas> there's more but I don't recall all of that
17:47:30 <int-e> I suppose icc has a commercial plan as well?
17:47:35 <b_jonas> free software didn't use to be the norm in the past
17:47:40 <b_jonas> back then, you payed for everything
17:48:03 <b_jonas> by the way, there's a certain esoteric commercial model that you could do:
17:48:42 <b_jonas> when microsoft offers a version of their compiler for individuals and small businesses, but makes large businesses pay, they use legal threats for that
17:48:59 <b_jonas> they claim that it's illegal for you to use the compiler if you're a large business
17:49:26 <imode> for what definition of large business.
17:49:32 <b_jonas> rather than that, an esolang could use documentation threats: document that if you use the free version and you're a large business, then every program runs into an undefined behaviour
17:49:56 <b_jonas> lawful developers will fear to rely on that the compiler happens to work now, because if the docs say that it's undefined behavior, then it could break any time,
17:50:22 <b_jonas> imode: dunno, Microsoft has a whole license agreement and whatnot for this
17:50:37 <b_jonas> imode: imagine 30 day trial period instead if you prefer,
17:50:43 <b_jonas> same enforcement methods apply
17:50:56 <int-e> E774 RANDOM COMPILER BUG.
17:51:13 <imode> "hey my code does X when it should do Y" "have you paid the troll toll?"
17:51:27 <ais523> it's literally a random compiler bug, something like 10% chance IIRC
17:51:32 <ais523> however there is a command-line option to turn it off
17:51:47 <ais523> (CLC-INTERCAL has /two/ random compiler bugs and the more obvious command-line option only turns one of them off)
17:52:02 <ais523> that said, you normally have to turn it off in practice if you're doing anything remotely automated
17:52:25 <imode> I refuse to give money to Wolfram.
17:52:41 <b_jonas> Mathematica is probably the best example, because they actually sell decent software,
17:52:49 <b_jonas> the evil part is only how they sell it:
17:52:51 <imode> shame it's not by decent people, though.
17:53:04 <kspalaiologos> I'm not interested in financial part of Mathematica
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17:53:35 <b_jonas> they give almost free copies to students, who learn the program it, and then, of those, then ones who turn out to be code monkeys and decide that they can only use a programming language if they were taught it at school, they will now have to buy Mathematica because they didn't take a Java course
17:53:48 <b_jonas> it's like giving free drugs to children
17:54:24 <b_jonas> Wolfram the founder is also a bit crazy, but he doesn't, like, personally develop the whole thing, so it doesn't matter
17:54:48 <imode> any paid language ecosystem will eventually fall prey to open source alternatives because the majority of interested individuals are predisposed to like "free and equivalent
17:54:49 <ais523> during the (2,3) Turing machine thing, Wolfram asked me to write Mathematica versions of the code I'd written (fair enough given the context), and gave me a /trial/ version of Mathematica to do it on (not even a perpetual license), so I didn't end up using it much beyond translating the code
17:55:09 <b_jonas> imode: that didn't happen to matlab
17:55:12 <int-e> b_jonas: is this what they call edutainment
17:55:13 <b_jonas> oh yeah, I forgot about matlab
17:55:18 <b_jonas> matlab is the best fucking example
17:55:23 <b_jonas> I see so many people using it for some reason
17:55:26 <imode> ais523: were you aware of wolfram's reputation at the time?
17:55:27 <ais523> my opinion on Mathematica is that the language itself is pretty terrible (it's basically an esolang, but not a tarpit), but the standard library is excellent
17:55:34 <b_jonas> despite that it has an actually better free software alternative, octave
17:55:43 <ais523> imode: well, I'd read /A New Kind of Science/
17:55:52 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, it's the standard library that is good
17:55:58 <b_jonas> but you get the standard library for money
17:56:13 <b_jonas> there are actually one or two clones of the core language I think
17:56:31 <ais523> the core language isn't really that different from Lisp + pattern-matchinig
17:57:02 <b_jonas> ais523: I won a student license of Mathematica once, but I think it was limited for one year or something
17:57:09 <b_jonas> I didn't really use it for anything
17:57:44 <b_jonas> the university has the free student copies that they use for marketing, plus there are illegal copies
17:57:56 <int-e> b_jonas: Matlab has all those ready-made toolboxes for various domains and the option of generating efficient code for simulation from it... and a strong userbase.
17:58:17 <int-e> ("efficient" is certainly relative)
17:58:19 <b_jonas> int-e: but it doesn't seem to me like people are using those ready-made toolboxes
17:58:27 <b_jonas> the ones where I'm confused about using matlab that is
17:58:57 <b_jonas> hmm, cpressey isn't here, he'd have an opinion on this stuff
18:00:10 <b_jonas> I admit that I'm biased against matlab because of how it manages to have a huge artificial difficulty in the source code format, more serious than python's indentation or java's one class per file
18:00:21 <b_jonas> matlab requires that you put every function in a separate file
18:00:30 <b_jonas> that and the one-based indexing
18:00:54 <ais523> Java doesn't actually have a one class per file restriction, it's just that you can't refer to a class from other files if its name doesn't match the filename
18:01:01 <ais523> (because the compiler wouldn't know where to look for it)
18:01:09 <ais523> you can put an entire Java program in one file if you want to
18:01:40 <int-e> and it will compile to a merry collection of dozens of class file
18:02:04 <int-e> and then you put those into a jar, or you can do some class loading magic yourself instead
18:06:38 <b_jonas> basic, lua, matlab, gap, mathematica: I hate your stupid one-based indexes, and I hope you painfully stub your toe on an off-by-one error
18:07:00 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> int-e: but it doesn't seem to me like people are using those ready-made toolboxes => I think we had a course on fuzzy inference or something, with lab tasks (how are they called properly?..) written for IIRC such a toolbox. Though I hadn’t done them and I don’t like fuzzy math in any form anyway
18:08:04 <ais523> some golfing languages use 1-based indexing, possibly so that they can use 0 to mean "last element", but it often seems to cause trouble there too
18:08:35 <ais523> I blame English for this, if the word for "first" were based on the word for 0, the word for "second" were based on the word for 1, and so on, there wouldn't be any confusion
18:08:54 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> that and the one-based indexing => and Mathematica too :(
18:10:10 <b_jonas> ais523: but they're not based on "one" and "two" either. people could just go 0:first, 1:second, 2:twoth, 3:threeth, 4:fourth, 5:fifth, 6:sixth, 7:seventh, 8:eightth
18:10:23 <imode> huh, 0-means-last... interesting.
18:10:33 <b_jonas> unless nobody can pronounce "eightth", in which case it would have to be the traditional "eighth" instead
18:10:47 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, but there'd be no real advantage to that
18:10:55 <ais523> you should at least fix the off-by-one error in the process
18:11:19 <arseniiv> <ais523> I blame English for this, if the word for "first" were based on the word for 0, the word for "second" were based on the word for 1, and so on, there wouldn't be any confusion => how many languages do have that, though?
18:11:20 <int-e> b_jonas: maybe the base should depend on the variable name. z[] would be zero-based, o[] would be one-based, m[] would be -1-based, t[] would be two- or three-based depending on the phase of the moon
18:11:26 <int-e> f[] would be 42-based.
18:13:24 <ais523> arseniiv: for all I know, /all/ natural languages get this wrong :-D
18:13:53 <arseniiv> ais523: same with me, so I think this is a deeper problem
18:14:18 <b_jonas> yes, it's apparently a universal default among languages, though that at least means there are no problems when translating indexes
18:14:42 <b_jonas> in every language, you have to make it clear whether you're using one-based or zero-based, so translation of that part is mostly trivial
18:14:51 <int-e> no problem at all!
18:15:44 <int-e> I don't think there's any wrong or right here, actually.
18:16:56 <arseniiv> pretty esoteric question BTW: am I getting it right that ΓL(V) for a complex vector space V is way bigger that GL(V) ⊕ GL(V̄) (V conjugate here) due to shady automorphisms of C stemming from the axiom of choice?
18:17:46 <int-e> When assigning the first item a number, do you do that before or after counting it? That's the main distinction between 0- and 1-based counting.
18:20:00 <ais523> I think the trick is to see the items as size-1 things rather than size-0 things with size-1 gaps between them
18:20:11 <ais523> the first item goes from 0 to 1, the second from 1 to 2, the third from 2 to 3, and so on
18:20:29 <ais523> specifying the /end/ of an item when counting it on its own is perverse
18:20:40 <ais523> but for a range, you specify the start of the start of the range, and end of the end of the range
18:21:33 <int-e> I don't see the perversion.
18:25:03 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, about indexing. you're in the UK, so you probably use public transport sometimes. you're on a bus (or train), and a lady asks where you have to get off if she wants to go to X. you know that (a) she has to get off after the bus has opened its doors three times and closed them twice (the bus is now between stops), (b) after the bus has opened its doors three times and closed them three times
18:25:09 <b_jonas> (the bus is currently at a stop). how do you tell them when she has to get off?
18:26:50 <b_jonas> bus stops are what keep making me uncertain that zero-based indexing is always the right choice.
18:27:05 <ais523> on a train I would use the name of the stop, that's easier than counting (and I'd list the names of the stops in between if it were necessary to give an approximate count)
18:28:16 <ais523> on a bus I wouldn't be confident of counting the stops correctly, in Birmingham bus stops are very frequent and are ignored by the driver unless someone inside or outside asks the bus to stop, so when there's a little-used stop it's easy to forget it exists
18:28:23 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, it's easy in civilized countries where you can rely on the bus or train always telling the passengers the name of the stop in easy to see ways
18:28:53 <b_jonas> I don't buy that it's always like that though, because I've traveled to western europe, and even there people are sometimes uncertain about which stop the train is at
18:29:17 <ais523> actually, when used I take the train home late at night, there was an above 50% probability that someone would miss their stop
18:29:27 <int-e> Bus stops have a perfectly natural zero-based counting interpretation.
18:29:31 <ais523> but the local train company is investing in new technology to make the name of the stop clearer
18:29:32 <int-e> You get on the zero-th stop.
18:30:26 <ais523> anyway, if someone asks you /anything/ on the bus, it is almost certainly between stops; the dwell time at a stop is normally very short, and if it isn't, the environment inside the bus will be too chaotic to do much asking/answering of questions
18:30:35 <b_jonas> ais523: *sigh* did they name two adjacent stops exactly identically, with the second one being the one where most people have to get off, like they did here on the M3 bus towards Nagyvárad tér at Népliget?
18:31:01 <ais523> b_jonas: that's possible, but very few people use bus stop names here
18:31:07 <ais523> normally they'll just describe the place where they get off
18:31:25 <ais523> the bus stops /have/ names but they're not widely used, I think they exist only for administrative purposes
18:31:53 <ais523> (the buses used to have an instruction "please tell the driver which stop you plan to get off at when buying your ticket", I managed to cause confusion by being one of the only people to actually follow this instruction)
18:32:05 <b_jonas> how do you look up the timetable of buses on the internet if you're not in the bus stop where you want to get on yet?
18:32:16 <b_jonas> because we use the name of the bus stop for that
18:32:30 <b_jonas> of course, you don't have to remember the exact name, just choose it from the list of stops on the bus line
18:32:42 <arseniiv> <ais523> the first item goes from 0 to 1, the second from 1 to 2, the third from 2 to 3, and so on => yeah, one time I tried to make some notation for two interleaved Z’s, specifically to make off-by-1 harder^W easier to reason about
18:32:55 <kspalaiologos> I'm using the same assembler for malbolge and brainfuck so possibly I could supply you with a runnable version
18:33:13 <b_jonas> ais523: is that because tickets can have different prices depending on the destination?
18:33:15 <kspalaiologos> for curious: https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/malbolge-chess/raw/master/minesweeper.7z
18:33:30 <ais523> b_jonas: this is what our online timetables look like: https://nxbus.co.uk/files/NX-West-Midlands/current_timetables/2019-Timetables/1st-Sept-2019/6163tt01September2019.pdf
18:33:31 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: what? weren't you writing it in bf?
18:33:50 <kspalaiologos> but I compiled it to malbolge and optimized a bit by hand
18:33:51 <ais523> the 63 route probably has over 100 stops but the timetable only lists a few important ones that most people will recognise
18:34:03 <ais523> for stops in between, you interpolate
18:34:20 <ais523> (the bus driver will only aim for consistent timings at stops actually listed in the timetable, if they get to one of those stops early they have to wait)
18:34:32 <int-e> b_jonas: it's a sort of assembler
18:34:46 <arseniiv> existence of zero is a pain here, as we would want names for “gap integers” to be symmetric wrt sign inversion, and then we almost ruin any sense of inventing them at all
18:35:10 <ais523> also, tickets used to have widely varying prices depending on destination, but the system was simplified many years ago now
18:36:38 <ais523> there are basically only five types of adult ticket: one for a single short journey, one for a single journey of any length, a day ticket limited to one operator within a certain area, a day ticket limited to one operator but allowing you to use any of their buses no matter how far they go, and a day ticket that works on all the buses in the conurbation
18:37:21 <ais523> this leads to only two things that need memorizing (how far a "short journey" is – in practice the bus drivers often seem to not know this or get it wrong; and where the boundaries of the areas for local day tickets are)
18:37:28 <int-e> arseniiv: yeah if there is a mistake then it's using the same numbers for both points (fence posts) and intervals (fence segments)
18:38:15 <int-e> arseniiv: once you conflate those you will make an arbitrary choice... and cause upset if you mix those two choices :)
18:38:47 <ais523> oh, also the prices on some of these drop after 9:30am, but that doesn't change where the ticket is usable
18:38:51 <b_jonas> This year, I traveled on public transport in five different areas abroad, and at each place I knew at least a little how the pricing system works, but now I forgot most of it
18:38:53 <shachaf> Though I haven't read any of the context so I assume this is about array indexing.
18:38:57 <ais523> it just depends on when you buy it
18:39:23 <int-e> I wonder whether the inclusive choice (picking 1 for 0--1) is somehow psychologically more appealing.
18:39:32 <b_jonas> the five places were Amsterdam, Rotterdam, London, Dortmund, and Köln
18:39:45 <int-e> Because that could explain why so many (all?) natural languages agree on that.
18:39:49 <arseniiv> int-e: shachaf: I agree with all of us also. We only need to think up appropriate names and decide would they be for things or intervals
18:40:04 <b_jonas> in Amsterdam, Rotterdam and London, I used pre-charged proxy cards for paying
18:40:18 <shachaf> https://blog.nelhage.com/2015/08/indices-point-between-elements/ describes it pretty well.
18:40:19 <arseniiv> maybe because of there was no concept of zero for so long
18:40:32 <b_jonas> I'll be using one of those in Gävle too later this year, now that I think of it
18:41:27 <int-e> shachaf: and I totally agree with that pointer view on zero-based indices in programming languages.
18:41:54 <b_jonas> in Amsterdam, the system is that prices for metro and tram vary depending on source and destination stations, so you have to check in and out with the card, in the stations for metro but the vehicle on trams; but on bus, there's a single fair, so you only check in with the card, not out
18:42:01 <b_jonas> London has a system similar to that
18:42:26 <b_jonas> but it's a bit confusing because london has three different types of urban rail lines, not just two like in other places
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18:43:10 <int-e> (C got that one wrong for variable-sized arrays at the end of structs.)
18:43:13 <b_jonas> Dortmund and Köln were more confusing. no proxy card, but paper tickets,
18:44:08 <b_jonas> but the vending machines were a pain: sometimes they don't accept bank card, only cash, and only low denomination cash too; sometimes they pre-validate your ticket and sometimes they don't and I couldn't tell when they'd do which one, I wasted at least one ticket on that
18:44:15 <int-e> (Or maybe I'm confusing myself?)
18:45:23 <int-e> Oh, this was an older version of C that didn't have variable sized arrays so you would be forced to write T foo[1]; instead.
18:45:50 <b_jonas> in Budapest, day tickets and other time-based tickets are always pre-validated, whereas single tickets and other distance-based tickets aren't... well, that's not quite true, HÉV tickets are for specific stations...
18:46:03 <int-e> I'm probably still confused. Will check, but not now.
18:46:35 <arseniiv> indices pointing between elements is practical, I agree, but we could accidentally start these from 1 too and not break anything, so there should be a stronger argument for 0-based. Personally I like 0-based naturals too, but these for obvious combinatorial/foundation-theoretic reasons
18:46:42 <shachaf> C99 has "flexible array members", struct T { ...; char array[]; };
18:47:07 <ais523> Birmingham doesn't require explicit ticket validation; tickets might be checked anywhere on the route (start, during, end, multiple times, not at all), and might or might not be marked when checked to prevent you reusing them
18:47:11 <b_jonas> <arseniiv> maybe because of there was no concept of zero for so long => how would that influence me? there was a concept of zero when I was born, and when the textbooks I've read were written
18:47:21 <int-e> arseniiv: 0 is at distance 0 from the start!
18:47:26 <shachaf> Indices pointing between elements should definitely start at 0.
18:47:47 <shachaf> For an array with n elements there are n+1 indices, going from 0 to n.
18:48:12 <arseniiv> int-e: and something unknown is at distance 0 from the end :(
18:48:18 <b_jonas> ais523: that's how train tickets work here, so in exchange you always have to specify the two ends of the journey and the route
18:48:20 <shachaf> That reminds me of this diagram I made once: https:/slbkbs.org/ranksel.svg
18:48:27 <arseniiv> though it’s an argument equally against 1-based too :D
18:49:03 <int-e> arseniiv: C does this a lot... pointers are allowed to point just after the end of an array (that is, *at* the end of the array in the distance view), but you are not allowed to dereference them.
18:49:21 <arseniiv> <shachaf> For an array with n elements there are n+1 indices, going from 0 to n. => yes that rings true for me
18:49:34 <shachaf> Yes, which is very reasonable.
18:49:38 <int-e> arseniiv: So C gets it right, it just describes it in an awful way.
18:49:56 <shachaf> But what happens if your last array element is at UINTPTR_MAX?
18:49:57 <kspalaiologos> https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/malbolge-chess/raw/master/minesweeper.bf
18:49:58 <arseniiv> so how should we denote index numbers
18:49:59 <int-e> (:P because I wrote earlier that there is no right or wrong here)
18:49:59 <ais523> b_jonas: I guess bus tickets are validated in the sense that they can only be purchased at the start of the journey, and have the time at which they're purchased on them, that's basically a form of validation
18:50:20 <b_jonas> ais523: that's how single tickets worked in Germany, which confused me
18:50:22 <ais523> (exception: you can buy day tickets for future days, or even for unspecified future days, in the latter case you have to mark the day on them yourself before you start using them)
18:50:23 <shachaf> int-e: There may be no right way, but surely there are wrong ways?
18:50:23 <arseniiv> or for that reason, element… names
18:50:25 <kspalaiologos> it's 1:1 equivalent of what I've got with Brainfuck
18:50:44 <arseniiv> α β γ δ like the old nomenclature for aminoacids?
18:50:46 <b_jonas> ais523: and day tickets sometimes worked that way, but sometimes you had to validate them the first time you use them to set the start time
18:50:51 <int-e> shachaf: True, but I was only considering the two reasonable options for counting.
18:51:11 <int-e> For counting fence segments, that is.
18:51:14 <b_jonas> ais523: but my problem is that it wasn't clear for me from the vending machine interface what I'll get before I pay
18:51:28 <ais523> on the trains, single tickets can be bought in advance, and there are flexible options that can be used at any time during the day in question
18:51:36 <ais523> those often aren't validated at all on short journeys
18:51:50 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that's how trains in Germany work
18:51:57 <ais523> on longer journeys it's quite likely that a member of the train company will come round while you're sitting on the train and validate it mid-journey
18:52:19 <b_jonas> ais523: right, and I think that job is called controller
18:52:21 <ais523> (to prevent you using it on a second journey in the same directoin later that day)
18:52:34 <ais523> "conductor" is the most commonly seen word in English, but I think it's a historical relic and not accurate
18:52:40 <ais523> "ticket inspector" would be clear
18:52:44 <int-e> it's a cultural thing though... other countries have gates at platforms where you show your ticket or invalidate it with some machine.
18:53:03 <int-e> when entering and leaving
18:53:06 <shachaf> Obviously if you write a loop it should loop over values that computers represent naturally, like integers, rather than Greek letters.
18:53:10 <b_jonas> ais523: oddly, on some trams in Rotterdam, there are three separate jobs for the driver, the conductor, and the ticket inspector
18:53:16 <ais523> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/conductor#Noun definition 3
18:53:32 <ais523> int-e: the UK has those too, but only at some stations
18:53:37 <b_jonas> and the conductor sits behind a huge circular desk that takes up way too much place of the train
18:53:44 <ais523> they're expensive to run because you need a contingency plan for if someone turns up without a valid ticket
18:53:51 <ais523> and thus can't get through the gate
18:53:52 <b_jonas> that would never work here, because the trams are so full
18:53:58 <int-e> I thought people were bad conductors.
18:54:25 <arseniiv> BTW what does an invariant and reasonably symmetric definition of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-ratio looks like? I’ll reinvent it myself but if anybody knows it’ll be quicker
18:55:20 <int-e> Hmm, I knew meanings 2, 3, 4. But not the more generic meaning 1?
18:55:32 <b_jonas> yes, London, Amsterdam, Rotterdam all have automatic gates for the metro stations that read the proxy cards
18:55:54 <ais523> normally this means that when you have a ticket barrier, you need an employee on the platform side of the barrier with tickekt-selling equipment
18:55:54 <b_jonas> int-e: they didn't seem to provide any useful service, so yes
18:56:17 <int-e> b_jonas: I used meaning 4 of course.
18:56:32 <int-e> More specifically the electrical one.
18:56:34 <b_jonas> int-e: basically they sometimes had a microphone, and sometimes yelled at people or told where we are, all of which the automated system with recorded voice also did, but the conductor could preempt it
18:56:58 <arseniiv> I mean, suppose we have some vector space V without inner product; then we take four coplanar lines from there and we should be able to get their cross ratio
18:57:11 <ais523> in some stations in London, there's someone who operates a public address system and simply tells the passengers where to move to stop them getting in each others' way
18:57:34 <ais523> because the crowds can be so large that you can't rely on everyone in them to act sensibly without instructions
18:57:51 <ais523> I guess that's comparable to the type of conductor b_jonas is talking about? except for platforms rather than on the tram
18:58:24 <b_jonas> mind you, the most annoying speaker system I've met is in the Amsterdam Schiphol airport. they have captions everywhere that it's a "silent airport" so there are no announcements on the speaker about airplanes starting, you should look at the displays instead,
18:58:57 <b_jonas> but the airport has long corridors with walking strips, and there are speakers that say "Mind your step" every time someone is near the end of one of those strips
18:59:14 <arseniiv> <int-e> I thought people were bad conductors. => why, that’s mainly because of skin resistance. If the skin is wet or wounded, it plummets
18:59:17 <b_jonas> so you hear "Mind your step" in the same voice repeated a hundred of times when you're there
18:59:26 <b_jonas> I don't understand how that's supposed to help anyone
18:59:47 <int-e> arseniiv: what do you mean by "invariant"
19:00:15 <int-e> arseniiv: Oh yeah there's a Darwin award for that.
19:00:34 <arseniiv> int-e: it shouldn’t use distances (which aren’t here, after all), it shouldn’t use coordinates
19:00:38 <int-e> arseniiv: https://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1999-50.html
19:00:46 <b_jonas> ais523: here we have people continuously guarding platforms on on metro M4, because that's the only one that's driver-less.
19:00:53 <b_jonas> basically they replace the drivers.
19:01:19 <b_jonas> it sort of makes sense, because in an exceptional situation, they have to act in the stations anyway, not anywhere else
19:01:34 <ais523> right, at the moment person-trapped-in-door-detection technology is not cost-effective enough to be good enough to be safe without a person checking for that
19:01:47 <b_jonas> so even though it takes about as many employees as there would be drivers, it works better
19:01:52 <b_jonas> and they're probably payed less than drivers too
19:02:05 <ais523> in the UK it's usual for the person in question to travel on the train, but they could be on the platform
19:02:49 <ais523> that said, it's only metros that have the principle of "emergencies mostly happen at stations", on long-range train lines they're more likely to happen somewhere else, so the human supervision definitely needs to be on the train in that situation
19:03:18 <ais523> (actually, some really big stations, like Birmingham New Street, have their own staff that check the trains for safety before leaving, that gives the staff on the train a break)
19:03:57 <b_jonas> oh yeah, in London, one of the three urban rail types is driverless, but still has conductors on some carriages
19:04:46 <ais523> IIRC not consistently, it's driverless on some lines but not others
19:05:58 <b_jonas> ais523: it's not just that. it's more like that trains are rarer, so there are much fewer trains than train stations, so it would be expensive to have someone man every station; whereas there are about as many metro trains as metro stops.
19:06:15 <ais523> in general it's unwise to expect consistency from London transport, because a) most of the lines were built at different times, taking new technology into account; b) not all the lines are upgraded at the same time; c) many lines need to make compromises due to the presence of other lines
19:06:19 <b_jonas> probably more than half as many metro trains than metro stations
19:06:36 <b_jonas> also on trains, the conductor doubles as the ticket inspector between stops
19:06:50 <ais523> if you count trains vs. stations it may be comparable; but if you count trains vs. platforms, there are many more platforms
19:06:59 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, you can see that from how narrow some of the passenger tunnels are
19:07:05 <b_jonas> they wouldn't allow building such narrow ones these days
19:08:39 <b_jonas> but you can see the inconsistency here too: that's why all stops of metro M4 have elevators, but no stops of the other metros do
19:08:41 <ais523> London is basically like a foreign country, to people living elsewhere in the UK
19:09:28 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, and I only ever visited London so far
19:15:08 <b_jonas> maybe I'll see more if you organize that #esoteric meeting
19:24:38 <b_jonas> although with so many people leaving and returning, I don't know if UK people are still the pluarlity in here
19:25:04 <b_jonas> I don't recall where some of the newcomers and returning esolangers live
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20:55:55 <ARCUN> Is it possible, to modify a C compiler such as gcc, in order for it to compile a variant or derivative of C?
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21:01:20 <kmc> ARCUN: yes, of course
21:01:25 <zzo38> Yes, but I don't know how difficult it is.
21:01:27 <kmc> in fact gcc already compiles many variants or derivatives of C
21:01:47 <zzo38> (Probably, how difficult it is, depend on the variant of C)
21:01:47 <kmc> it supports several revisions of the C spec and numerous non-standard extensions, not to mention C++ and Objective C
21:02:31 <zzo38> Yes, some of the GNU extensions I think is good and I use them, such as writing ?: with nothing in between, and supporting zero-length arrays.
21:03:21 <kmc> what does ?: with nothing in between do?
21:03:46 <ARCUN> I was thinking of modifying it so that an esolang looking similar to that of an obfuscated C program
21:05:26 <shachaf> C99 has flexible array members. Why do you need zero-length arrays?
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21:07:13 <zzo38> I don't really like flexible arrays, and I think zero-length arrays is clearer and fits with everything else, rather than being something separate.
21:09:15 <oerjan> <shachaf> x?:y means x?x:y <-- without reevaluation, presumably.
21:10:44 <int-e> shachaf: to allocate a struct with a variable array element that's empty
21:11:43 <zzo38> That is one use of zero-length arrays, yes. But, there are also some other possibilities
21:11:54 <int-e> and proper sizeof computations, perhaps. still haven't checked what the issue was there.
21:13:53 <shachaf> int-e: Do you like this? https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Alexander_Nadel/publication/325968980_Chronological_Backtracking/links/5b3a08e84585150d23ee95c8/Chronological-Backtracking.pdf
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21:15:38 <shachaf> Unrelatedly, what do you think of this chronological backtracking thing?
21:15:48 <shachaf> "In particular, the decision level of the variables in the assignment trail is no longer monotonously increasing."
21:16:44 <zzo38> I noticed in the log the discussion of the one-based indexing in Lua, BASIC, Mathematica, etc. In BASIC you can start arrays at whatever integer index you want, but strings start at 1.
21:18:22 <oerjan> `sled bin/asmbf//s/^/print_args_or_input "$@" |/
21:18:24 <HackEso> bin/asmbf//print_args_or_input "$@" |tr / \\n | bfasm
21:20:22 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, it's partly the strings that bother me, partly the indexed property interfaces I access, which are sometimes 1-based and sometimes 0-based
21:20:26 <oerjan> `bfasm mov r4,.F/mov r1,.0/mov r2,r1/lbl 1/out r1/out r2/out 32/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,2/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,3/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,5/lbl 6/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,4/inc r2/jmp 1/lbl 2/sub r4,5/mov r1,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 3/sub r4,5/mov r2,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 4/inc r1/mov r2,.0/jmp 1/lbl 5/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jz_ r3,6
21:23:01 <b_jonas> oerjan: try starting with `asmbf rather than `bfasm
21:23:48 <zzo38> b_jonas: What indexed property interfaces is that?
21:24:17 <int-e> shachaf: it's always good to revisit design decisions
21:25:17 <oerjan> `asmbf mov r4,.F/mov r1,.0/mov r2,r1/lbl 1/out r1/out r2/out 32/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,2/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,3/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,5/lbl 6/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,4/inc r2/jmp 1/lbl 2/sub r4,5/mov r1,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 3/sub r4,5/mov r2,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 4/inc r1/mov r2,.0/jmp 1/lbl 5/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jz_ r3,6
21:25:18 <HackEso> +>+[<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>>>>[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<<[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>[-]<[>+<<+>-]<[>+<-]<]>+<<+<<[>>->+<<<-]>>>[<<<+>>>-]<[->+<<[>>>-<<+<-]>[<+>-]>>[<->[-]]<[<<<+>>>-]<]>>[-]<<<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>.>.>>>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]<<[-]<<[>>+<<<+>-]<[>+<-]>>>>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<[<<<<+>>>>-
21:25:37 <oerjan> `1 asmbf mov r4,.F/mov r1,.0/mov r2,r1/lbl 1/out r1/out r2/out 32/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,2/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,3/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,5/lbl 6/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,4/inc r2/jmp 1/lbl 2/sub r4,5/mov r1,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 3/sub r4,5/mov r2,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 4/inc r1/mov r2,.0/jmp 1/lbl 5/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jz_ r3,6
21:25:38 <HackEso> 1/7:+>+[<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>>>>[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<<[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>[-]<[>+<<+>-]<[>+<-]<]>+<<+<<[>>->+<<<-]>>>[<<<+>>>-]<[->+<<[>>>-<<+<-]>[<+>-]>>[<->[-]]<[<<<+>>>-]<]>>[-]<<<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>.>.>>>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]<<[-]<<[>>+<<<+>-]<[>+<-]>>>>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<[<<<<+>>>>
21:26:02 <oerjan> a bit more convenient to use that way
21:27:06 <kmc> getting pretty fucky in here
21:27:56 <oerjan> i'm finished with that hth
21:28:10 <oerjan> just adding *_args_or_input on principle
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21:31:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: uh, I don't remember the details. something about specific VBA interfaces of this siemens thing.
21:35:38 <oerjan> that kline is particularly ironic since iirc Sigyn was invited because of someone stalking em
21:36:27 <oerjan> well i haven't finished the logs yet
21:36:42 <int-e> just putting it out there ;-)
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22:29:33 <imode> so I have a compiled concatenative language that I'd like to add logic programming features to. metamath seems like a reasonable starting point because, as far as I can remember, it's concatenative with respect to the proof steps.
22:30:14 <imode> anybody know how verifiers in metamath work, or have any down-to-earth information about the language?
22:30:40 <imode> there's a rather verbose introduction on wikipedia but I've yet to encounter an "all-encompassing documentation set that walks you through some example proofs.
22:30:57 <imode> maybe the metamath book would be a good starting point, haven't read that yet.
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00:18:18 <zzo38> CEA-708 has text tags to specify the purpose of the caption (dialog, sound effects, song lyrics, etc). There is even invisible, which I think is good, since sometimes you might want invisible captions, such as if the text is already part of the picture (e.g. the clues in Jeopardy!). However, tag 12 and 13 and 14 is undefined, according to Wikipedia.
00:19:02 <zzo38> I can make the suggestion of the use of these tags: video translation, described video (invisible by default, like tag 15), and miscellaneous (in case none of the other tags are suitable).
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00:35:19 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck constants]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66802&oldid=58043 * A * (+38) /* 97 */
01:11:31 <pikhq> Whoa, more Homestuck
01:11:52 * pikhq should read herself the epilogue
01:40:33 <zzo38> I saw the note by wib_jonas about "vanishing three card blind" M:tG game. I think that perhaps there should be a restriction to Vintage or pseudo-Vintage cards, rather than everything they ever released.
01:41:19 <zzo38> (And if you do play it often enough that there will be only draws, then you will either have to wait for new cards, or start to use some unofficial cards too.)
01:46:06 <zzo38> And I disagree to delete stuff from the quotation file a lot; keep them until you are wasting too much disk space.
01:46:21 <zzo38> Since they are not pictures, they don't normally waste too much disk space.
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05:08:28 <shachaf> lifthrasiir: 13 0s? That's a lot.
05:08:39 <shachaf> Imagine all this hashing going toward breaking SafeHaskell!
05:09:17 <shachaf> I guess you need thousands times more hashing.
05:10:33 <lifthrasiir> AFAIK the previous winner (with 12 zeroes) had spent 16 hours on GTX 1060
05:11:25 <lifthrasiir> unless the current winner used FPGA or similar (unlikely), the current winner should have spent about a week or two
05:13:47 <lifthrasiir> I have submitted that link about a day ago, but it says "3 hours ago" in the HN front page
06:03:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's probably too late now, with possibly several people having submitted decks using Blacker Lotus
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09:31:23 <kspalaiologos> has someone already worked on esoteric operating system draft?
09:32:42 <kspalaiologos> so I could in my very own kernel implement a module loader, a few drivers and a brainfuck interpreter
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10:54:54 <arseniiv> I did it! I defined cross-ratio in normal human-readable terms involving exterior product only
10:56:12 <arseniiv> though it looks like black magic; I don’t know how to derive it in a straightforward manner, it was constrained guessing
10:58:45 <arseniiv> the final result is this: where “metric-dependent” (though independent) definition goes (A, B; C, D) = |AC| |BD| / |BC| |AD|, the invariant one goes (a ∧ c) (b ∧ d) / (b ∧ c) (a ∧ d), and I’m not joking it’s really that similar. As I said, black magic
11:00:28 <arseniiv> where a, b, c, d are nonzero vectors from lines A, B, C, D
11:04:50 <arseniiv> I specifically was looking for an expression invariant under scaling these a, b, c, d separately, and one that is invariant under any linear maps. This would mean it’s invariant in projective space, and this also enforced fractions and the form where each vector occurs equally often in denominators and numerators. So the simplest expression to satisfy that is the one I got here, upto a permutation of (a, b, c, d)
11:08:25 <arseniiv> oh, by (a ∧ c) (b ∧ d) / (b ∧ c) (a ∧ d) I meant (a ∧ c / b ∧ c) (b ∧ d / a ∧ d) (or another rewriting), division is allowed because bivectors are all from one-dimensional space here, as all vectors line in the same plane (as all projective points need to be collinear for cross-ratio to be defined)
11:26:58 <arseniiv> eh, I wrote about this in three places and still no reaction :D though I have no patience. I hadn’t seen the expression anywhere to date, so I’m agitated at least because that shouldn’t be the case, it’s simple and it’s definitely useful when teaching. Or learning, for that matter
11:30:22 <arseniiv> though contemporarily it’s not a consensus yet that exterior products make many things more transparent. Exterior algebra captures linear dependence, in a way
11:30:41 <b_jonas> arseniiv: may I recommend you the book https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-08.html#lN5c ?
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12:08:47 <arseniiv> oh there is a nice remark also that cross-ratio values naturally lie in RP! I should fix my definition so that be the case
12:10:34 <arseniiv> and also that the distances in the classical definition are directed. Yes, this makes more sense, and yes it’s nice that the invariant definition was taking that into account all along
12:27:10 <arseniiv> hm constructing a definition such that cross-ratio lies in RP isn’t trivial!
12:27:40 <arseniiv> we should divide bivectors or we get nonsense, but we should also take away all divisions
12:28:04 <arseniiv> I think there is an invariant way though
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13:20:35 <esowiki> [[Dilemma]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66803 * A * (+635) Created page with "== Drafts == Maze language based on a searching algorithm that does not remember the way it goes. <pre> X@. ^|^ S/. </pre> The direction priority is clockwise; i.e. it tries t..."
13:29:28 <esowiki> [[Dilemma]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66804&oldid=66803 * A * (+650)
13:39:09 <arseniiv> hm xy/zw = x′y′/z′w′ for x, y, z, w ∈ (one-dimensional vector space) can be defined as x ⊗ y ⊗ z′ ⊗ w′ = x′ ⊗ y′ ⊗ z ⊗ w. That doesn’t solve everything yet, we need to define what does it mean for a quadruple (x, y, z, w) to equal 1
13:40:24 <arseniiv> but we still need to show these quadruples upto that equality are iso with RP
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13:51:29 <arseniiv> using ⊗ we even don’t need to use quadruples, pairs (x ⊗ y, z ⊗ w) will suffice
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13:55:34 <arseniiv> hm it seems to map those to RP we need to explicitly demand [(x, x)] ↦ 1, [(x, −x)] ↦ −1, [(0, x)] ↦ 0, [(x, 0)] ↦ ∞, or else we could pick a wrong projective transformation
14:03:52 <esowiki> [[Dilemma]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66805&oldid=66804 * A * (+235)
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14:25:20 <arseniiv> seems fairly improvable? => hm nope, we could just restate it but I don’t see a way clearer restatement
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17:44:44 <kspalaiologos> is there some kind of penality for writing android apps in Flash or C++ Builder?
17:45:10 <kspalaiologos> I wish, has someone taken on programming in Brainfuck for mobile
17:46:02 <kspalaiologos> ^^^ like, is there a chance a desperate Java programmer will hunt me down?
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19:28:42 <fizzie> The "penalty" is that all the platform APIs, including the standard UI framework, are really accessible only from the "Java" (I mean, it's not really all that Java) runtime.
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19:32:12 <zzo38> Doesn't Android use Dalvik?
19:32:44 <fizzie> It used to, then they switched to ART.
19:33:07 <fizzie> Both use the Dex bytecode format, they're just different implementations.
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19:43:57 <zzo38> What is the difference?
19:45:12 <zzo38> I read the documentation for Dalvik and do not know how I/O works.
19:46:08 <fizzie> AIUI, the biggest difference is that ART does an AOT compilation step (around install time?) to native ELF executables.
19:48:11 <zzo38> Is the file format the same or is there some difference?
19:49:34 <fizzie> The .dex bytecode file format that applications contain is the same, the internal files it generates (.odex and maybe some others) are different.
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19:55:33 <fizzie> Apparently there's a few minor differences, like ART does a more strict verification of the bytecode. And I don't know about I/O, never looked too closely into the actual bytecode. Maybe it's all done through the usual invoke-* instructions, just some methods are magical. (Just a guess.)
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20:22:54 <b_jonas> fizzie: aren't there already ready-made wrappers for C++ though?
20:28:05 <kspalaiologos> and Starling/Feathers UI for flash looking awesome
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20:38:11 <fizzie> I'm not sure which ready-made wrappers you mean. I mean, the standard NDK has a bunch of APIs, sure. Not for the native UI, but for OpenGL/EGL/Vulkan and all kinds of hardware. And of course there's a truckload of different cross-platform development things that just draw their own stuff (Flutter, React Native, Xamarin, that Feathers thing...).
20:47:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: I mean for the native android services
20:48:15 <zzo38> Can you run a X server on Android?
20:53:38 <fizzie> I don't see why you couldn't in theory, but I haven't really heard of anyone doing it.
20:54:02 <kmc> i think people do
20:54:13 <kmc> because they want to use GUI programs in a GNU/Linux chroot
20:54:20 <kmc> you can use Xvnc or something
20:55:02 <fizzie> I use Termux on my phone, which is basically an Android terminal emulator app, plus a Linux userland installed inside the app's data directory, and an APT repository for convenient packages.
20:55:10 <kmc> oxample: https://www.reddit.com/r/amateurradio/comments/84jbgy/wsjtx_on_android/
20:55:13 <kmc> fizzie: that sounds dope
20:55:17 <kmc> I should use that
20:55:21 <kmc> is it less buggy than juicessh
20:55:25 <kmc> can you run the linux mosh client in it
20:56:06 <fizzie> So far I like it better than JuiceSSH, which is where I switched from. At least you can run the standard OpenSSH client and ssh-agent.
20:56:16 <fizzie> I assume mosh should be fine as well, I've just never set that up.
20:56:19 <kmc> you can probably run mosh too
20:56:26 <kmc> it doesn't have much in the way of system requirements
20:56:47 <fizzie> (The nice bit with Termux is that it requires no root.)
20:58:07 <fizzie> Looks like there's also some support for running X11, through the VNC trick: https://wiki.termux.com/wiki/Graphical_Environment
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21:07:39 <myname> i didn't like termux that much for some reason i fail to remember
21:07:53 <myname> maybe because of the softkeys or the colors or something like that
21:08:07 <myname> but the url handling of juicessh is the worst i've ever seen
21:08:14 <myname> even connectbot did it better
21:12:18 <fizzie> The default colors had that thing where the "dark blue" is very light.
21:13:19 <fizzie> But that was just a matter of copying my normal set of colors into ~/.termux/colors.properties on the phone.
21:15:56 <fizzie> The softkeys are also configurable, I set them to a multi-row layout pretty similar to what I had in JuiceSSH (esc, /, -, home, up, end, pageup on top row; tab, ctrl, alt, left, down, right, pagedown on bottom).
21:17:02 <fizzie> One thing that seems a bit wonky is that when you swipe the softkeys to switch to the "input a line of text using the normal Android text input" mode, it also seems to always treat that as a keypress of whatever key you start the swipe from.
21:17:50 <fizzie> Also the URL handling isn't that great either, there's a long-press "select URL" option but it doesn't consider # a URL character or some-such.
21:18:44 <fizzie> I like the volume key shortcuts. (Holding volume down acts like holding control down, and holding volume up turns wasd into arrows.)
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21:23:43 <zzo38> Can you configure the URL characters and schemes?
21:26:09 <fizzie> Not via a configuration file, as far as I can tell. You could always just edit the source and build the app, though, it's open source.
21:26:25 <fizzie> The relevant logic would seem to be here: https://github.com/termux/termux-app/blob/master/app/src/main/java/com/termux/app/TermuxActivity.java#L676
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21:34:37 <zzo38> We can see that some schemes are missing, such as "news" and "nntp" and "ssh" and "magnet". Also, the "news" and "magnet" schemes do not use // after the colon. And, yes it does looks like it doesn't include # as a URL character, but it ought to do; even that URL linking to the source code has it, and in many other HTTP(S) URLs it will be common, so it should be included.
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02:22:52 <zzo38> 34.234.98.204 seems to keep making the request "HEAD /favicon.ico HTTP/1.1" to my HTTP server (with the User-Agent string "python-requests/2.18.4"); that seems to be the only file they ever try to access. Why do they keep trying the same file over and over again?
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03:57:02 <esowiki> [[Acyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66806&oldid=66801 * Zzo38 * (+5)
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04:01:43 <esowiki> [[Acyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66807&oldid=66806 * Zzo38 * (+1)
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05:48:51 <zzo38> What units of mass should I use in xyzabcde2 game? (Maybe grams?) It will need to fit in a signed 32-bit number, including when adding together the mass of your body with stuff that you are carrying and something that you try to pick up but can't; so probably no individual mass should exceed 2^30 or maybe 2^29, to avoid arithmetic overflow.
05:49:25 <zzo38> But then should also be fine enough that you can keep track of if you are carrying too much stuff, so that individual items can be picked up and dropped and can keep track of their mass.
05:53:11 <esowiki> [[FiM++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66808&oldid=52976 * YamTokTpaFa * (+42) /* External resources */ +CAT
05:55:51 <esowiki> [[Unicorn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66809&oldid=46775 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) +CAT
05:56:08 <esowiki> [[Unicorn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66810&oldid=66809 * YamTokTpaFa * (+12)
05:56:45 <esowiki> [[ZiziQue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66811&oldid=36439 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24)
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08:03:47 <esowiki> [[Anarcheat]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66812 * A * (+701) Created page with "[[Anarcheat]] is an esolang inspired by the limitations of [http://golf.shinh.org/ Anarchy golf]: there are only 3 possible sample inputs at maximum, and the test cases can on..."
08:07:56 <esowiki> [[Anarcheat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66813&oldid=66812 * A * (+227) /* echo (13 bytes) */
08:14:40 <esowiki> [[Anarcheat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66814&oldid=66813 * A * (-1) /* [golf.shinh.org/p.rb?hello+golfers Hello, golfers!] (? bytes) */
08:17:36 <esowiki> [[Anarcheat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66815&oldid=66814 * A * (+131) /* [golf.shinh.org/p.rb?hello+golfers Hello, golfers!] (? bytes) */
08:19:10 <esowiki> [[Anarcheat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66816&oldid=66815 * A * (+120) /* [golf.shinh.org/p.rb?hello+golfers Hello, golfers!] (? bytes) */
08:22:46 <esowiki> [[Anarcheat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66817&oldid=66816 * A * (+390) /* Dictionary */
08:25:05 <esowiki> [[Anarcheat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66818&oldid=66817 * A * (+195) /* Digit sum until no change */
08:28:10 <esowiki> [[Anarcheat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66819&oldid=66818 * A * (+228) /* Digit sum until no change */
08:31:55 <esowiki> [[Anarcheat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66820&oldid=66819 * A * (+17) /* Digit sum until no change */
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10:28:12 <oerjan> ooh, a pa'anuri talking
10:31:11 <shachaf> is that a member of the oerjeois
10:33:24 <shachaf> it doesn't make sense unless you mispronounce j as /ʒ/
10:33:40 <shachaf> and probably not even then
10:36:13 <oerjan> i'm a portmannosseur, after all
10:36:29 <shachaf> the point is i was independently just looking up the pronunciation of that word
10:37:04 <shachaf> context: looking up words that can be spelled by holding a calculator upside down
10:37:33 <oerjan> well j _is_ pronounced that way in french. although the word in question is spelt with g.
10:37:36 <shachaf> one hit was "booboisie" which is apparently some sort of us slang for the opposite
10:38:19 <oerjan> meetings of the oerjeois would be a bit cramped if there were pa'anuri in it.
10:39:33 <shachaf> I didn't know what pa'anuri is, and I was trying to figure out which word it reminds me of.
10:40:29 <shachaf> But that doesn't account for the '
10:40:43 <shachaf> Another guess might be something like pa'amon, I guess, but that doesn't seem right.
10:40:55 <oerjan> i don't think anything accounts for the '. it's moved around in schlock mercenary's history.
10:41:26 <shachaf> I was pleased to see a ' that could plausibly be indicating a glottal stop.
10:41:45 <oerjan> he uses it to sprinkle the f'sherl-ganni words
10:41:50 <shachaf> "The word Pa'anuri (or possibly Paan'uri) comes from a F'sherl-Ganni phrase"
10:42:45 <oerjan> the only ' that has a clearly given pronunciation in SM is in Ch'vorthq's name
10:42:54 <oerjan> it is emphatically _not_ a glottal stop.
10:43:23 <oerjan> nor is it really pronouncable by humans, although a lateral click might do.
10:43:24 <shachaf> it looks like a possessive in that usage hth
10:43:27 <b_jonas> ``` grep -Ewi '[oizehsgtb]{7,}' share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt # words that can be spelled by holding a calculator upside down?
10:43:28 <HackEso> eighties \ hostess \ besiege \ hotshot \ zeitgeist \ egotist \ eightieth \ ghettoize \ tootsie
10:43:37 <oerjan> shachaf: i mean the first one hth
10:43:53 <shachaf> b_jonas: The puzzle was eight digits that spell the name of a bird.
10:44:47 <b_jonas> shachaf: ooh, bird names. there are lots of those.
10:45:06 <b_jonas> shachaf: did they tell in what language?
10:45:06 <shachaf> For example you could name a bird Oooooooo
10:45:18 <shachaf> https://twitter.com/robinhouston/status/1188395789338513408
10:46:37 <b_jonas> well 11111111 upside down is IIIIIIII which is a name for the identity bird
10:49:38 <shachaf> I suppose ' canonically indicates contraction, which means you can stuff whatever you want in there.
10:54:51 <b_jonas> this should be easy if the https://petscan.wmflabs.org/ tool just fucking WORKED, so I could search for mainspace articles recursively under Category:en:Birds in en.wiktionary , but no, it fails to work again
11:02:44 <b_jonas> ah, found one. there's apparently a bird named rot13 fubrovyy
11:04:22 <b_jonas> ah, that's a different one from your spoiler
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13:00:25 <int-e> @tell oerjan <oerjan> ooh, a pa'anuri talking <== I'm happy too
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15:02:00 <arseniiv> how many episodes SM does have, to within thousand?
15:08:22 <b_jonas> arseniiv: do you mean like strips?
15:12:25 <int-e> arseniiv: the first one is https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2000-06-12 and I don't think that there've been any missed updates
15:25:33 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I recommend Order of the Sticks, it only has 1183 strips so far; and StickManStickMan, which has 1000 strips total
15:26:41 <int-e> but of course it has way more text to read, and requires encyclopedic knowledge of role playing games to understand
15:27:14 <FaeFly> I don't think it really does require super indepth knowledge of RPGs
15:27:29 <FaeFly> I've never played tabletop RPGs, and only have a fairly casual knowledge of them, still enjoy OotS :p
15:27:57 <int-e> I just don't like oots for some reason.
15:28:30 <arseniiv> I have some basic understanding by now, due to reading something which used that in a degree
15:30:14 <arseniiv> but right now I have maaany webcomics in list :D I don’t think OOTS needs to enqueue there, many in that list currently are passively waiting
15:30:44 <FaeFly> I'm not really following any webcomics anymore
15:30:51 <FaeFly> I should pick some up again sometime
15:31:11 <arseniiv> though I think I maybe just waiting for a buffer to fill, many of them update a little slowly
15:31:48 <arseniiv> I bet there are half a dosen in hiatus any time
15:32:09 <int-e> FaeFly: there are so many of them now
15:32:26 <int-e> FaeFly: best to stay away ;-)
15:33:22 <arseniiv> one time I had a suspicion all webserial authors are actually the one under the hood
15:34:09 <arseniiv> there were too many already then for one human to write them all
15:36:22 <arseniiv> (though the idea does still have some gravity. Shouldn’t I have a silly and original belief)
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15:42:20 <b_jonas_> oots doesn't require encyclopedic knowledge of role-playing games to understand
15:42:54 <b_jonas_> for one, it only requires knowledge of D&D 1, 3, 3.5
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15:43:55 <int-e> I'm not sure you're helping your cause.
15:44:15 <b_jonas> compare that to Irregular Wecomic and Darths & Droids, which references a mixture of all sorts of different role-playing games
15:46:11 <arseniiv> b_jonas: wait, how many D&D editions do you know sufficiently? (me, none)
15:46:29 <b_jonas> and oots mentions first edition in only like three or four strips, and they talk about it with nostalgia as an obsolete system in universe
15:46:46 <arseniiv> (I do know there are many and some were controversial between players)
15:48:36 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I think I only know enough about 3.5 to understand some jokes about the rules
15:49:22 <b_jonas> but oots doesn't have many of those. it toned the role-playing jokes down after strip #100 and became a serious story, and the role-playing rules are almost never referenced now
15:50:41 <arseniiv> all good things come to an end :(
15:51:32 <arseniiv> (just kidding, I prefer not to think on that topic, it’s not productive)
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16:27:18 <b_jonas> int-e: so are there webcomics that you do like? which ones?
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17:53:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * PAndaContron * New user account
17:59:55 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66821&oldid=66800 * PAndaContron * (+228) /* Introductions */
18:09:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:AlphaBeta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66822&oldid=34594 * PAndaContron * (+433)
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18:52:19 <esowiki> [[Agony]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66823&oldid=54982 * Voltage2007 * (+2) grammatical errors and 1 unconcisep phrase
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19:01:47 <esowiki> [[A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66824&oldid=65756 * Voltage2007 * (+218) Appended clearer explanations
19:04:39 <lambdabot> int-e said 6h 4m 13s ago: <oerjan> ooh, a pa'anuri talking <== I'm happy too
19:10:19 <HackEso> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft.
19:10:23 <oerjan> <int-e> I'm not sure you're helping your cause. <-- is he ever
19:11:06 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't think so, although since boily left we have stopped keeping track of body weighs
19:11:30 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: doWg: not found
19:11:52 <HackEso> 1075) <boily> btw, ^v, what are your approximate geographic coördinates and body weigh? <^v> 300 and USA <boily> nice to see that ^v is keeping with the spirit of the channel by providing completely useless answers to the question.
19:12:44 <oerjan> did boily miss a "the" that's abominable
19:13:24 <HackEso> rhetorical question//Why did Taneb invent the rhetorical question without providing an answer?
19:13:25 <shachaf> At one point my doctor recommended that I increase my body weigh.
19:13:30 <HackEso> the question//The The Question is the fundamental mystery of #esoteric, and boily is its master.
19:14:16 <shachaf> Maybe it was to affect boily's data.
19:16:51 <HackEso> A thausible action is one committed toward a thausiblee.
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19:48:47 <b_jonas> does fungot like orange-flavored sugarfree softdrinks?
19:48:48 <fungot> b_jonas: i didnt say it was, but i have seen my reply didn't arrive, forcer
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20:14:35 <arseniiv> did they mean set-theoretic forcing
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21:16:28 <int-e> what was boily's plan anyway? locate the channel's center of gravity?
21:17:27 <int-e> shachaf: afaik, I'm not a pa'anuri
21:17:37 <int-e> But of course I might be dreaming.
21:17:54 <int-e> Of itty-bitty... how did it go?
21:18:16 <int-e> Of itty-bitty scary-barrys.
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21:20:02 <shachaf> Have you confirmed it by checking your body weigh?
21:24:10 <int-e> Light as a feather
21:34:49 <int-e> https://www.debate.org/opinions/does-a-ton-of-feathers-weigh-more-than-a-ton-of-bricks
21:35:06 <int-e> what a perfect link for the times we're living in...
21:35:58 <HackEso> A feather is something that can be found on most birds. It is responsible for their ability to not spontaneously float, seeing as how feathers are made of osmium. Penguins and ostriches have more feathers than most other birds, many of which are internal.
21:37:05 <HackEso> Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
21:39:49 <svipal> what esolangs do you guys find useful ?
21:40:23 <zzo38> Depends on what you are trying to do, I think. Most of them are usually not so useful
21:41:40 <svipal> yeah haha, unless you're trying to learn a concept. But here I meant useful as in , "oh this can actually solve well this problem I run into a lot in my job", for instance
21:42:57 <zzo38> Well, sometimes, I think I will want to use some of the stuff in INTERCAL when using another programming language.
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21:54:28 <int-e> svipal: mostly it's the intellectual challenge that counts
21:56:47 <svipal> what INTERCAL stuff lol
21:57:08 <svipal> int-e, sure, i was curious though
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23:35:35 <esowiki> [[Smurf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66825&oldid=53705 * Oerjan * (+14) /* Variable commands */ Clarify that it's order popped, not order pushed
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01:30:54 <esowiki> [[Semantic Brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66826&oldid=66326 * SilverWingedSeraph * (-216) Fix jump instruction behavior.
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01:56:55 <esowiki> [[Semantic Brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66827&oldid=66826 * SilverWingedSeraph * (-1966) Remove the unused instructions, bringing the instruction size down to 5 bits.
01:57:33 <esowiki> [[Semantic Brain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66828&oldid=66827 * SilverWingedSeraph * (+0)
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03:43:18 <zzo38> How to disable kerning for editable text in Firefox?
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03:58:22 <shachaf> Why do you want to disable kerning for editable text in Firefox?
03:59:13 <zzo38> Because kerning is not very good for text editing; it is suitable only for text that is only for reading and not for editing.
04:00:21 <imode> override the editable text field to use a monospace font, then.
04:01:13 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose that would be one way to do.
04:04:40 <shachaf> If you use a font without kerning information I assume it would work.
04:07:29 <zzo38> Yes, although it uses fonts with kerning by default
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04:31:47 <zzo38> I added a fax encoder/decoder in Farbfeld Utilities now. Unlike the other programs, these ones are written in PostScript, although an implementation in C might also be added later.
04:33:45 <zzo38> ImageMagick will only decode Group 3 files if you specify EndOfLine=true for fffax, but ImageMagick will only decode Group 4 files if you specify EndOfLine=false for fffax. I don't know why. Also, when decoding a Group 4 file, ImageMagick will display 'Bad value 0 for "Orientation" tag.' even though it successfully decodes it.
04:33:51 <zzo38> Do you know why ImageMagick does that?
05:36:13 <esowiki> [[User:Moon/common.js]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66829&oldid=66764 * Moon * (+237) add sandbox link
05:39:32 <esowiki> [[MediaWiki talk:Common.js]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66830&oldid=56460 * Moon * (+526) /* Add a sandbox link */ new section
07:43:39 <b_jonas> I don't know. I only saw fax files on one website (though a large quantity there), and ImageMagick could read them fine.
08:07:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: re kerning: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/font-kerning
08:09:20 <b_jonas> that said I think kerning is still useful for editable text. it's non-greedy action-at-a-distance line break finding that you usually disable for editable text so that words don't jump around between lines.
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09:00:20 <cpressey> Good morning. I have another esolang and I plan to release it today.
09:53:40 <esowiki> [[Oxcart]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66831 * Chris Pressey * (+4013) Initial article for Oxcart, a continuation-passing concatenative language.
09:55:08 <cpressey> An implementation is available in the GitHub repo linked to therein.
10:05:23 <shachaf> I rewrote my printf-style function as a state machine, but I ran into the unfortunate issue that it supports custom formatters, and those also need to be written as state machines for maximal correctness.
10:05:51 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66832&oldid=66797 * Chris Pressey * (+13) /* O */ Add Oxcart
10:06:42 <shachaf> I thought just restarting each formatter from scratch would be sufficient, but it can lead to infinite loops if you're using a fixed size buffer and the formatter tries to write something larger than that.
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10:07:05 <shachaf> Oh, hmm, there's actual esolang activity in here.
10:08:34 <shachaf> :t let comp f g x k = f x (\s -> g s k) in comp
10:08:36 <lambdabot> (t1 -> (t2 -> t3) -> t4) -> (t2 -> t5 -> t3) -> t1 -> t5 -> t4
10:11:51 <shachaf> I guess I should just read it as (b -> (c -> r) -> r) -> (a -> (b -> r) -> r) -> a -> (c -> r) -> r
10:12:10 <shachaf> Which is the obvious thing.
10:15:51 <shachaf> cpressey: I think you copied some text from the Wagon page.
10:18:23 <cpressey> I did copy some text from the Wagon page, to start it off, but did I fail to update it appropriately?
10:19:28 <shachaf> I just mean the Primitives section.
10:19:52 <cpressey> Ah, I see some errors. I'll fix them
10:20:43 <shachaf> Maybe (a -> (b -> r) -> r) should be ((b -> r) -> a -> r) instead.
10:21:47 <esowiki> [[Oxcart]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66833&oldid=66831 * Chris Pressey * (+8) Fix lead paragraph in Primitives section
10:22:57 <esowiki> [[Oxcart]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66834&oldid=66833 * Chris Pressey * (+106) Note that Oxcart is not a minimal language
10:24:45 <shachaf> What is "continue as normal"?
10:25:29 <shachaf> I think I'm confused about how evaluation works.
10:25:35 <shachaf> Also I think I should go to sleep.
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10:28:16 <esowiki> [[Oxcart]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66835&oldid=66834 * Chris Pressey * (+179) Clarify what "continue as normal" means, and what the initial continuation is.
10:29:21 * wib_jonas disables layout.css.text-decoration-skip-ink.enabled in firefox after an annoying update made underlined text look ugly
10:30:43 <esowiki> [[Oxcart]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66836&oldid=66835 * Chris Pressey * (+25) Add extra section in order to make ToC appear higher up in page
10:31:47 <wib_jonas> cpressey: there's also the magic word __TOC__ to insert the table of contents right where that magic word is
10:31:54 <wib_jonas> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words
10:32:36 <shachaf> What is the current continuation? Is it part of the program state?
10:33:06 <wib_jonas> shachaf: I think you'll have to read the source code of the implementation
10:34:10 <cpressey> shachaf: The current continuation is the second argument that the function receives.
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10:34:38 <wib_jonas> cpressey: but is the tape of stacks part of that continuation?
10:34:50 <wib_jonas> or does that live outside with only one copy?
10:34:54 <cpressey> wib_jonas: No, that's the first argument.
10:35:14 <ais523_> shachaf: if you have a sufficiently pure programming model, the current continuation is the %Ientire%I state of the interpreter / the running program; impure languages tend to leave bits of it out though
10:35:15 <cpressey> f(x, k) = f(state, kontinuation)
10:35:20 <wib_jonas> cpressey: so there's only one tape of stacks?
10:35:38 <ais523_> also apparently my usual shortcut for italics doesn't work with this client
10:36:23 <ais523_> although, "current" continuation is a bit misleading, the continuation that call/cc generates is the continuation that its first argument returns to
10:36:25 <cpressey> wib_jonas: No, it's a purely functional language, so each operation takes a state and passes a new, transformed state to its continuation
10:36:48 <shachaf> ais523_: How much of what you said is applicable to this language?
10:36:56 <shachaf> I know what continuations are in general.
10:37:01 <ais523_> I don't know, I don't know the language, haven't logread yet
10:37:53 <shachaf> I see. My question was about this language, not continuations in general.
10:37:59 <wib_jonas> ah, the github has more explanation, not only an implementation
10:39:56 <ais523_> looking at the definition of Oxcart, the spec seems to treat continuations as opaque data that is acted on by the program
10:40:16 <ais523_> I think a literal understanding of the esolangs.org page would have the stacks not be part of it
10:40:24 <ais523_> hmm, this reminds me of an Underload derivative I was working on a while back
10:40:33 <ais523_> with some introspection primitives
10:41:01 <ais523_> one captured the state of the entire stack; the other captured the entire list of commands that were yet to run
10:41:04 <esowiki> [[Oxcart]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66837&oldid=66836 * Chris Pressey * (+236) Try to clarify what continuation-passing style means in this instance.
10:41:29 <ais523_> those could be used to create various continuation-alikes that captured different amounts of state
10:41:45 <shachaf> cpressey: I see now. I forgot that each symbol represents a function of one argument.
10:42:57 <ais523_> cpressey: I think there's still an ambiguity, as to whether stack operations look at a stack that's stored within κ, or at a separate global stack
10:43:18 <ais523_> I think the latter is more likely given the specification on the page but it doesn't rule out either possibility
10:43:28 <cpressey> ais523_: κ is a function, there's nothing "stored within" it
10:43:56 <ais523_> OK, I guess that makes sense, functions-with-metadata aren't the sort of thing you expect to see unannounced
10:44:08 <wib_jonas> ais523: the tape of stacks is passed around in a separate argument
10:44:17 <wib_jonas> I still think there's only one of it, because there's no way to copy it
10:44:30 <wib_jonas> so I think you can imagine it as a separate global stack, and functions with just the continuation argument
10:44:31 <ais523_> so it definitely isn't part of the continuation as it has an argument of its own
10:44:33 <shachaf> Ugh, the biggest problem with writing explicit state machines is that they don't compose well.
10:45:02 <ais523_> what notion of composition are you thinking of here? or do you not care?
10:45:15 <ais523_> there's more than one way I can think of to compose state machines
10:45:37 <ais523_> but those definitions seem to map to the explicit state machine notation fairly well?
10:45:43 <shachaf> I mean, it's certainly possible.
10:45:54 <shachaf> It's just much more awkward than function calls, in a language with no special support.
10:46:38 <wib_jonas> shachaf: about the printf function state machine, what exactly does that mean? can you feed it the format pattern character by character? can it output the formatted output character by character? both?
10:46:48 <ais523_> oh, I see; state machines compose well in the sense of function composition (Haskell . or Underload *), but not in the sense of function application (Haskell $ or Underload ^)
10:47:03 <shachaf> wib_jonas: No, you give it the format string all up-front. It produces output into a fixed size buffer.
10:47:29 <wib_jonas> shachaf: I sort of think that allowing general custom formatters in a printf function is a waste, and I think when I write my printf function, I'll make it so that you can't do that. I'll still add some limited hooks, but they have to behave in restricted ways.
10:47:31 <shachaf> I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.
10:47:36 <ais523_> although if you don't have recursion, you can statically allocate a state for every possible call stack
10:47:49 <shachaf> Yes, you can build your own call stack effectively.
10:47:59 <wib_jonas> shachaf: in what sense is it a state machine then? do you feed the arguments to be formatted one by one?
10:48:14 <shachaf> wib_jonas: You provide all the arguments upfront too.
10:48:22 <esowiki> [[Oxcart]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66838&oldid=66837 * Chris Pressey * (+291) Define what a continuation is in this instance
10:49:02 <wib_jonas> shachaf: how is it a state machine then?
10:49:51 <shachaf> It might be used something like this: sprintf_init(&state, fmt, va); while (!state.done) { char buf[4096]; int written = sprintf_chunk(&state, buf, sizeof buf); fwrite(buf, 1, written, stdout); }
10:50:15 <shachaf> The normal sprintf API doesn't let you do that -- it requires you to allocate an arbitrary-sized buffer.
10:51:03 <wib_jonas> shachaf: ah, so it's the second one that I said, it can continue output after it's ran out of a buffer
10:51:21 <wib_jonas> interesting, and potentially useful
10:51:31 <shachaf> Yes. I thought I said that but now I read my message again and it was unclear.
10:51:40 <wib_jonas> shachaf: do you have a wrapper that lets it write to a file descriptor easily?
10:51:44 <shachaf> I meant that each call puts some of the output into a fixed-size buffer.
10:51:57 <shachaf> You can write a wrapper like that, can't you?
10:52:12 <shachaf> I'm just worried about figuring out the core API that lets you write all the wrappers you want.
10:52:26 <wib_jonas> shachaf: also, is it possible to define a formatter that formats a bignum in hexadecimal, where the output can be longer than a few of the output chunks?
10:52:47 <shachaf> Formatters can produce arbitrary strings.
10:52:59 <ais523_> hmm, I wonder if it might be more efficient to simply restart the sprintf from the start with a larger buffer
10:53:09 <ais523_> rather than maintain all the state needed for restarting
10:53:12 <shachaf> Even the built-in formatters like %s have the same issue.
10:53:29 <shachaf> What state needed for restarting?
10:54:07 <ais523_> the "state" parameter of your sprintf_init
10:54:08 <shachaf> Certainly that state is no larger than a stack frame of snprintf's.
10:54:23 <ais523_> yes, it's not the size I'm concerned about, but the memory accesses used to update it
10:54:55 <wib_jonas> as for that M:tG three card deck game, I think the start is successful because we've got 4 new players in round 1, and one of them won the round
10:55:19 <shachaf> It's a very small amount of state.
10:56:18 <shachaf> Other than the varargs, the state is less than two pointersworth.
10:56:26 <wib_jonas> shachaf: it's not that simple. if you want to format big numbers in decimal (and they're stored in hexadecimal) then it's more efficient to do the conversion in one go, and that requires memory proportional to the size of the bignum
10:56:56 <wib_jonas> mind you, it's sort of pointless to print bignums in decimal to full precision
10:57:06 <shachaf> wib_jonas: Oh, well, you're free to allocate more memory and store it in your custom state, I guess.
10:57:20 <shachaf> (Store a pointer to it, I mean.)
10:57:48 <shachaf> I don't think efficiency is a huge concern here anyway.
10:57:51 <wib_jonas> though now you need an abort function to deallocate the state if you don't want to continue the printf
10:57:59 <shachaf> But of course it would be a big concern in fairly similar APIs.
10:58:30 <shachaf> Although you can just store your extra state in an arena probably.
10:58:35 <ais523_> oh, I assumed getting maximum efficiency would be the reason for something like this
10:58:51 <ais523_> (rather than simply counting the characters needed for the output buffer in advance)
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10:59:31 <wib_jonas> I think I'll just use the more traditional approach where I call a callback when the output buffer runs out -- that callback can still give an error to abort, but I won't convert it to cps where you can pause the printf and store the state for later
11:00:25 <ais523_> hmm, if you can inline the callback, that's probably more efficient (it's less efficient if you have to call through a function pointer, especially given the workarounds needed for Spectre)
11:00:36 <shachaf> I think state machine APIs are generally much nicer and more flexible.
11:00:44 <wib_jonas> the callbacks are simply anyway, they either write, or allocate more memory, or always fail, plus in the first two cases there could be an output length limit that they obey
11:01:50 <wib_jonas> ais523: it's not just the callback that helps, I can also enforce that I can call flush early and require that the output buffer is always at least, say, 64 bytes long, which means I don't need to worry about the callback during converting fixed integers or floating point numbers
11:01:55 <ais523_> (the currently recommended way of calling through a function pointer is to call yourself twice and then overwrite the return address for the second call on the stack with the address of the function you actually want to call; this guarantees that the function call will be mispredicted, thus preventing it being used as a Spectre gadget)
11:02:10 <oerjan> <shachaf> cpressey: I think you copied some text from the Wagon page. . o O ( maybe cpressey is secretly A )
11:02:16 <wib_jonas> (mind you, formatting floats is still tricky for other reasons)
11:02:48 <ais523_> you also need something that halts speculation at the address that you don't return to because it's overwritten
11:02:49 <wib_jonas> a callback is effectively also what gnu libc and libstdc++ does
11:03:04 <wib_jonas> for libc, you can define FILE handles with custom callbacks,
11:03:27 <wib_jonas> for the C++ standard library, you can define custom classes for the output buffer
11:04:06 <ais523_> actually, the important point here isn't specifically that the call is mispredicted, rather it's that you statically know it'll be predicted to a specific value that's under your control (which prevents the predicted value being attacker-controlled)
11:04:24 <wib_jonas> ais523: it might not even involve a function pointer, since I will probably only use three different behaviors
11:04:31 <wib_jonas> possibly two because the last one isn't hard to unify
11:04:40 <ais523_> wib_jonas: right, sorry, I started on an aside
11:04:52 <ais523_> and then needed to make my aside as technically precise as possible, lest I end up misinforming someone
11:05:04 <wib_jonas> sure, that's also important. for some things other than printf, you do want function pointers
11:05:20 <ais523_> oddly, the Spectre-proof indirect function call sequence is eerily similar to conditionals in INTERCAL-72
11:05:35 <ais523_> (not the same, but reminiscent)
11:05:51 <esowiki> [[Oxcart]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66839&oldid=66838 * Chris Pressey * (-64) Move where it is explained what "current continuation" refers to
11:06:13 <shachaf> Do you like this style of API? https://gist.github.com/pervognsen/d57cdc165e79a21637fe5a721375afba
11:06:23 <shachaf> (The one in that post and also the one it links to.)
11:06:49 <wib_jonas> ais523: I really don't follow how sceptre-like prediction attacks can be prevented. at this point I sort of think I just have to buy separate (cheap) computer hardware to run the untrusted code on if I want to prevent all such attacks.
11:07:41 <wib_jonas> separating things to separate computer hardware can be useful for other reasons too, as in to prevent various human errors that cause security bugs
11:07:47 <ais523_> wib_jonas: I believe the commonly accepted technique is to ensure that you have control over all locations to which a branch could possibly be predicted to lead, and then audit them to ensure that they can't leak information when running speculatively
11:08:44 <wib_jonas> ais523: how can that be possible? you can guarantee that the cpu can't falsely speculatively predict a location?
11:08:55 <ais523_> it's not as bad as it seems; most branches can only be predicted as taken or not taken, so there are only two places to check, and compilers can verify that, e.g., you don't make any memory accesses via potentially attacker-controlled pointers
11:09:11 <wib_jonas> I thought the jump target prediction is such that you can't do that
11:09:17 <ais523_> the crazy workarounds are needed for indirect branches and indirect function calls, which could lead anywhere
11:09:30 <ais523_> so you need to control the prediction yourself
11:09:37 <wib_jonas> because it would, like, predict targets of unrelated jumps if it doesn't recall the jump instructino that you're trying to predict
11:10:05 <ais523_> that's why you go via a function call and then rewrite the return value on the stack, because if you make a function call followed by a return, it's always predicted to return to the place the call came from
11:10:43 <cpressey> oerjan: That's one of more frightening Jekyll-and-Hyde theories I've heard lately. Perhaps I've been sleepwalking (and sleepwikiediting)
11:10:44 <wib_jonas> that could work, if you're careful not to confuse the return address cache
11:10:55 <wib_jonas> there's a separate return target cache from the usual stack cache, right?
11:11:18 <ais523_> wib_jonas: actually it's the opposite of "careful not to confuse", you're intentionally confusing the return address stack
11:12:07 <wib_jonas> which theory? the one where every esoteric language author is secretly the same person?
11:12:28 <ais523_> the point is simply to make sure you have a known value on the return address predictor so that it can't be attacker-controlled
11:12:37 <wib_jonas> but the whole sceptre prevention seems hopelessly large in scope to me
11:13:06 <ais523_> well, it's at the point where the known spectre variants can be automatically fixed by compilers
11:13:21 <ais523_> there are probably unknown speculative-execution-related exploits, but at least the known ones were fixable
11:14:36 <wib_jonas> though I am hoping that most of them will be fixed in new hardware, so in like 15 years all the cpu with most of the vulnerabilities will be phased out
11:15:41 <wib_jonas> that's like a close enough timescale that I'll probably still be alive and programming for cpus then
11:18:02 <shachaf> If you don't support user-defined formats, it's probably simple enough.
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11:18:56 <arseniiv> <shachaf> Do you like this style of API? => interesting
11:19:09 <shachaf> I think %s is the only arbitrary-length format? You can just rerun the other ones if they happen to cross a boundary.
11:19:28 <shachaf> Or even just store a fixed-size buffer of what's left in the current argument.
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11:20:23 <wib_jonas> although then we'll still have to worry about how to make efficient but secure quantum-attack resistant public key cryptography primitives. if the crypto theorists don't figure out soon, every fricking ssl handshake will take centiseconds because we can't do a key exchange without number theory.
11:21:41 <shachaf> But what's the right thing to do for custom formatters?
11:21:59 <shachaf> I could declare that they just can't produce more than 64 bytes of output.
11:23:04 <wib_jonas> shachaf: I wouldn't allow them in general. I'll have to figure out something to allow bignum formatters, and those can produce long output, plus I will allow custom complex types, but I'll format them with built-in formatters, it's just a type system magic that disappears at compile time.
11:23:56 <shachaf> I have types like struct V2 { F32 x, y; };.
11:24:02 <shachaf> It seems pretty useful to be able to format them.
11:24:23 <shachaf> I don't expect a huge number of custom formatters but it'll be nice to have the common ones.
11:24:36 <wib_jonas> shachaf: printf("(%f,%f)", p.x, p.y);
11:24:56 <wib_jonas> replace the "%f" with whatever specific format you want obviously
11:25:50 <wib_jonas> for more complicated cases, the users can write a formatter function that doesn't hook into printf
11:25:59 <arseniiv> from the link there: “API design is still considered a black art of programming, even today. Only little information can be found and mostly you just find small tips I hope every programmer already knows.” => BTW there are no books on that, really? With yet many books on code style practices?
11:26:02 <wib_jonas> but can use the same output buffer solutino as your printf
11:26:31 <wib_jonas> so you don't mix them in the same printf format string, but you can mix them into the same output file or output buffer or whatever you can output to
11:26:39 <wib_jonas> I think your api still allows that
11:27:08 <shachaf> arseniiv: I don't think there are many good books on that sort of thing.
11:27:58 <ais523_> I think API design is in part a language design problem
11:28:15 <ais523_> APIs are influenced so much by the language you're calling them from
11:28:34 <ais523_> I have a theory that perhaps, in a sufficiently tightly defined language, there would only be one obvious way to write any given API
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11:31:04 <shachaf> arseniiv: Maybe https://gist.github.com/uucidl/495e7f1c2646fc8b5196 has some useful things to say.
11:31:20 <cpressey> arseniiv: fwiw I think API design is related to abstract datatype design... but different enough that I hesitate to say "closely related".
11:31:35 <wib_jonas> also, as a bonus, I'd like a printf that outputs utf16 directly, and can take both utf-8 and utf-16 strings as arguments to format
11:31:49 <ais523_> shachaf: that link appears to require logging in?
11:32:15 <ais523_> wib_jonas: I think Windows has one of those
11:32:22 <ais523_> (the same function in Linux outputs UTF-32)
11:32:30 <ais523_> any particular reason you want UTF-16?
11:33:40 <wib_jonas> ais523: at work I'm writing tables for a siemens program that can only read utf-16-le
11:33:55 <ais523_> that's a good enough reason, I guess
11:33:57 <wib_jonas> I could of course output utf-8 and iconv it afterwards
11:34:04 <wib_jonas> it's not like I need this very efficiently
11:34:24 <ais523_> shachaf: the gist link you posted a few lines above
11:34:40 <shachaf> I'm reading it in a Private Browsing window logged out.
11:36:18 <shachaf> I have no particular interest in UTF-16 support.
11:36:23 <wib_jonas> currently I do these with perl and python, both of which have ways to input and output utf-8 and utf-16 streams, though perl's is somewhat buggy
11:37:50 <ais523_> other than Microsoft-related code (which seems to use UTF-16 as default), the main use I see for UTF-8 is writing Funciton programs
11:38:23 <myname> i need to make a programming game out of that
11:38:31 <ais523_> because they're made primarily of non-ASCII characters, and yet there's no standard 8-bit character set that contains all the characters it uses + its standard library
11:38:42 <ais523_> so UTF-16 is normally the most efficient storage
11:38:56 <ais523_> (UTF-8 can be more efficient when the programs are primarily made of large constants)
11:39:08 <myname> to be fair, funciton uses something like utf-21 or the like internally
11:39:51 <ais523_> UTF-16 is also more efficient than UTF-21 if you rarely use astral plane characters :-P
11:40:15 <ais523_> also I think the UTF-21 is just for I/O, not used for storing the program internally
11:40:39 <arseniiv> cpressey: ah I think there is some kind of relatedness too, though I don’t have anything externalized on that count
11:40:42 <wib_jonas> ais523: this dataset is made of mostly ascii, so utf-8 would be more efficient
11:41:35 <ais523_> what do you think of the shift-code-based Unicode encodings which are efficient when outputting lots of characters from the same Unicode block?
11:42:11 <ais523_> hmm, thinking about it, you could probably do better with Huffman coding based on a digraph frequency table
11:43:40 <ais523_> one potential problem with both systems is that you can't split a string between characters any more, and concatentating strings will lead to an overlong encoding due to the shift state (or previous character state) being explicitly reset in between
11:49:39 <arseniiv> <ais523_> what do you think of the shift-code-based Unicode encodings which are efficient when outputting lots of characters from the same Unicode block? => my friend considered that but I don’t know if he succeeded in something. It seems he has the idea abandoned for a while
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11:50:36 <ais523_> there are at least two "standardised" encodings like that, at least one is IIRC patented/commercial (of course, there's doubts about whether a text encoding can be patentable!)
11:55:33 <wib_jonas> http://www.unicode.org/notes/tn6/ ?
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11:56:06 <ais523_> this is based on a memory from a Wikipedia page, I can't remember which one
11:59:03 <ais523_> that unicode.org link is probably the same thing, though, given that there's a reference to an IBM patent at the bottom
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12:19:29 <wib_jonas> fungot: a week passed since #1183. please publish the next o strip.
12:19:29 <fungot> wib_jonas: and to optimize the code,
12:24:18 <wib_jonas> for some reason, the constitution of Hungary requires that the president of the republic must be at least 35 years old. the president of the US is also limited to at least 35 years of age. so now I'm trying to imagine a sci-fi story where the president gets a sci-fi rejuvenation threapy and that takes his age under the bound, so they have to retire
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12:36:15 <cpressey> So then they change the rule to "must have at least 35 years experience as a human being"
12:37:04 <cpressey> And then a 12-yo who claims to be the reincarnation of [insert famous dead person here] runs for president
12:37:19 <wib_jonas> cpressey: no, I think they should just drop that lower bound
12:38:20 <wib_jonas> they can still tie it to people who have the right to vote, just like for members of the parliament, so that excludes almost all people under 18 years old
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12:47:43 <cpressey> Stupid rules often make for better stories though
12:48:24 <wib_jonas> yes, there's at least one sci-fi story about this 35 year rule and relativistic speed space travel
12:48:48 <wib_jonas> the story is that the rule is stupid, people realize that, so want to work it aruond
12:49:13 <wib_jonas> https://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/181346/4918
12:49:50 <wib_jonas> which is exactly the sort of thing why the rule shouldn't be there
12:50:15 <wib_jonas> if someone is inexperienced, then the parlament just won't elect them as president because of that, and the age bound is irrelevant
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13:16:40 <wib_jonas> fungot, what is the abbreviation for the US state of Louisiana?
13:16:40 <fungot> wib_jonas: somewhere it is.)) yields 6, as does cl iirc. dylan got repurposed, but eventually i'll know what the accessors are right?
14:21:39 <esowiki> [[User:AnimaLibera]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66840&oldid=66654 * AnimaLibera * (-145)
14:46:59 <esowiki> [[Transfinite program]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66841 * Chris Pressey * (+3072) Start on this article. Hope to be able to add more material, from examples found in the wiki, over time.
14:51:17 <esowiki> [[Transfinite program]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66842&oldid=66841 * Chris Pressey * (+209) Note another interpretation of "inifinite" that we do not mean here.
14:58:39 <esowiki> [[Transfinite program]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66843&oldid=66842 * Chris Pressey * (+663) Incorporate material from Sequential tag system article.
15:00:07 <esowiki> [[Sequential tag system]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66844&oldid=42801 * Chris Pressey * (+100) Link to the Transfinite program article.
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15:23:32 <esowiki> [[Transfinite program]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66845&oldid=66843 * Chris Pressey * (+755) Add brief mention of SMETANA
15:30:06 <esowiki> [[Transfinite program]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66846&oldid=66845 * Chris Pressey * (-14) Bump up heading levels.
15:31:18 <esowiki> [[Transfinite program]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66847&oldid=66846 * Chris Pressey * (-3) Link to infinite loop
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17:40:25 <esowiki> [[Cliff L. Biffle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66848&oldid=30798 * CMinusMinus * (+261) Added Informations. I will add more stuff later. Maybe (Shoud I send him an Email?)
17:52:19 <esowiki> [[PTSL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66849 * Moon * (+1204) begin
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18:13:46 <esowiki> [[User:Moon/sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66850 * Moon * (+11) Created page with "s a n d box"
18:25:12 <esowiki> [[PTSL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66851&oldid=66849 * Moon * (+42) Begin defining instructions.
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18:25:25 <esowiki> [[PTSL/instrtable]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66852 * Moon * (+113) large table
18:27:32 <esowiki> [[PTSL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66853&oldid=66851 * Moon * (+74)
18:29:57 <esowiki> [[PTSL/instrtable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66854&oldid=66852 * Moon * (+159)
18:30:41 <esowiki> [[PTSL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66855&oldid=66853 * Moon * (+96)
18:32:25 <esowiki> [[PTSL/instrtable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66856&oldid=66854 * Moon * (+56) add header
18:35:23 <esowiki> [[PTSL/instrtable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66857&oldid=66856 * Moon * (+236)
18:38:55 <arseniiv> is there (I think there is) a special name for algebraic types isomorphic to a sum of products of such types?
18:40:11 <arseniiv> like, { data Nat = Z | S Nat; data NatList = Nil | Cons Nat NatList } is a subset of these. Or { data T = TA | TB U; data U = UA | UB T } is too
18:41:07 <arseniiv> I think I heard “polynomial functor” regarding sums and products but these aren’t exactly one-to-one with functors
18:41:51 <arseniiv> as of “simple inductive type”, I’m not sure the term isn’t too general
18:49:02 <arseniiv> or maybe I should allow something like data T = T (U → T). I consider how to define generalized Minsky machines / recursive functions
18:50:23 <arseniiv> hm I think it won’t be good. How on earth could I make values of U → T there
18:51:07 <arseniiv> okay I think I’ll call these datatypes polynomial, seems not too general, not too specific
18:52:34 <arseniiv> hm no, there’s recursion… polynomial-inductive it should be
18:53:15 <shachaf> So in order to make the state machine printf API actually correct for sprintf, I think it'll need a bunch more state.
18:54:04 <shachaf> I was only outputting formatted arguments all-or-nothing, but the snprintf API actually requires you to output them to the last byte possible.
19:02:25 <esowiki> [[PTSL/instrtable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66858&oldid=66857 * Moon * (+697)
19:05:49 <shachaf> Apparently subtracting two null pointers is undefined behavior in C?
19:08:00 <esowiki> [[PTSL/instrtable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66859&oldid=66858 * Moon * (+91)
19:11:49 <fizzie> Subtracting even one should be, surely.
19:12:35 <fizzie> "When two pointers are subtracted, both shall point to elements of the same array object, or one past the last element of the array object; --"
19:12:59 <shachaf> But that doesn't say anything about what happens when one pointer is subtracted.
19:17:53 <esowiki> [[PTSL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66860&oldid=66855 * Moon * (+655) Example.
19:17:57 <fizzie> I guess it's the same as the one hand clapping.
19:18:44 <esowiki> [[PTSL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66861&oldid=66860 * Moon * (+2) fix
19:19:52 <fizzie> If a tree falls in the forest, does it generate a log?
19:29:02 <esowiki> [[PTSL/instrtable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66862&oldid=66859 * Moon * (+227)
19:33:08 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66863&oldid=66832 * Moon * (+11) /* P */ Add PDSL
19:33:37 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66864&oldid=66863 * Moon * (+0) /* P */ err, PTSL. Yea, PTSL.
19:40:19 <esowiki> [[PTSL/instrtable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66865&oldid=66862 * Moon * (+28) Casually forgets return instruction.
19:50:39 <esowiki> [[PTSL/instrtable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66866&oldid=66865 * Moon * (+430) Add comparison instructions.
19:55:00 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DeeBo * New user account
19:55:35 <esowiki> [[PTSL/instrtable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66867&oldid=66866 * Moon * (+243)
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20:32:47 <esowiki> [[PTSL/instrtable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66868&oldid=66867 * Moon * (+413) More arithmetic ops.
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20:35:09 <esowiki> [[PTSL/instrtable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66869&oldid=66868 * Moon * (+112)
20:39:58 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66870&oldid=66821 * DeeBo * (+227) /* Introductions */
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22:40:00 <esowiki> [[ZALIBY]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66871 * Groowy * (+2191) Created page with "'''ZLIBY''' is a simple programming language created as part of a programming competition run by students at Charles University. An implementation by [[User:Groowy]] can be..."
22:45:33 <esowiki> [[ZALIBY]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66872&oldid=66871 * Groowy * (-19)
23:32:40 <b_jonas> "Cleaning and maintenance shall not be performed by children." says the user's manual. I can see that my new electric toothbrush is american lawyer compliant.
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01:32:19 <esowiki> [[PTSL/instrtable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66873&oldid=66869 * Moon * (+704)
01:36:47 <esowiki> [[PTSL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66874&oldid=66861 * Moon * (-1)
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05:08:46 <shachaf> I cleaned up http://slbkbs.org/tmp/fmt/fmt.h somewhat and added fancy features.
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05:08:56 <shachaf> Example usage: http://slbkbs.org/tmp/fmt/main.c
05:09:15 <shachaf> zzo38: I think you wanted to see it at one point?
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07:38:18 <esowiki> [[Replace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66875&oldid=40816 * Groowy * (+119) /* External resources */
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11:05:41 <cpressey> <arseniiv> is there (I think there is) a special name for algebraic types isomorphic to a sum of products of such types? <--- I don't know, but it reminds me of boolean algebras.
11:06:23 <cpressey> But that may just be because I've been reading about boolean algebras lately.
11:12:00 <shachaf> Do you like complete atomic boolean algebras?
11:14:13 <cpressey> Only if they're also residuated.
11:15:14 <cpressey> Uh, kind of like division, or implication, I gather.
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11:29:44 <shachaf> The joke is that CABAs are just sets.
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12:52:44 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: I think any algebraic type that doesn't use parametric polymorhpism (that is, -> in the kind) in its definition (and the definitions of other types that it's dependent on) has that property, so you can just call them algebraic types
12:52:58 <wib_jonas> algebraic is specifically the name because they're defined by polynomial equations
12:54:33 <arseniiv> wib_jonas: isn’t the class of algebraic types wider?
12:59:09 <wib_jonas> see http://www.madore.org/cgi-bin/comment.pl/showcomments?href=http%3a%2f%2fwww.madore.org%2f%7edavid%2fweblog%2f2017-11.html%23d.2017-11-10.2477 for where the "algebraic" name comes from, though in a slightly different context than algebraic types
12:59:35 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: it is wider if you allow parametric polymorpism, as in definitions like "data Foo a = ..." where a is a type parameter
12:59:47 <wib_jonas> then you can define types that you couldn't otherwise, as in that famous square matrix type
13:00:15 <wib_jonas> but if you only give definitions like "data Foo = ..." with constructors on the right side, then I don't think so
13:00:41 <wib_jonas> it's basically the same as with the context-free language productions
13:00:50 <wib_jonas> but I'm not entirely sure that that matches your description entirely
13:01:00 <wib_jonas> "types isomorphic to a sum of products of such types?"
13:01:24 <wib_jonas> if you read that wrong, then maybe any type matches it because it's isomorphic to itself
13:02:01 <wib_jonas> so maybe I just don't understand your question
13:02:50 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: ok, maybe you're right and that's not all algebraic types, if you write the definition properly
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13:05:06 <arseniiv> I meant that there are several definitions like data T = C_1 a_11 … a_1(k1) | … | C_n an_1 … a_n(kn) where all a_ij are some T defined this way
13:05:29 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: is this definition written in such a way that if you take `data A = I; data L = N | C A L; data M = E | D L M; data P = X | M;` then L and M match your definition but P doesn't?
13:06:28 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: well in that case I think that's exactly what I'd call "algebraic types" in the strictest sense
13:06:47 <arseniiv> no, P does too if X, M are constructor names
13:07:13 <wib_jonas> `data A = I; data L = N | C A L; data M = E | D L M; data P = X | V M;`
13:07:13 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: data: not found
13:07:59 <arseniiv> shouldn’t we also call a type `data X = X (A → L)` algebraic?
13:08:17 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: not in the strictest sense I think
13:08:24 <wib_jonas> but you use names in whatever way you like
13:08:39 <arseniiv> ah, so I can name them “algebraic in the strict sense” in parenthesis
13:08:40 <wib_jonas> in the haskell context you could call any type that you define with `data` algebraic
13:09:00 <arseniiv> yeah, that got me confused in the first place
13:09:30 <wib_jonas> but you can define non-algebraic types with `data` if you use type parameters or other stuff
13:13:26 <esowiki> [[PTSL/instrtable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66876&oldid=66873 * Moon * (+100) Add CALLASM
13:17:25 <cpressey> Oh, I thought they were called algebraic data types because their definitions are like signatures of algebraic structures
13:18:03 <wib_jonas> cpressey: what? how? algebraic structures have multi-argument functions in them, don't they?
13:18:45 <cpressey> Don't algebraic data types have multi-argument constructors?
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13:19:33 <wib_jonas> cpressey: yes, but also alternations
13:19:48 <cpressey> data BA = And BA BA | Or BA BA | Not BA | One | Zero
13:20:19 <cpressey> That looks a lot like an algebraic signature to me. Not saying it is, but hard to see why you seemed shocked at the idea wib_jonas
13:20:52 <wib_jonas> cpressey: so you take the language of expressions that you can make from op'ns in that algebraic structures
13:21:12 <wib_jonas> cpressey: that's not how I'd imagine algebraic structure signatures, but I guess you're right, you can think of them like that
13:22:41 <wib_jonas> P_H: they're defined by polynomial equations, that's why they're called algebraic data types, yes
13:24:40 <esowiki> [[PTSL/instrtable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66877&oldid=66876 * Moon * (+373) MSET*
13:25:50 <moonheart08> Shame that a computer running a 2D language would be kinda useless
13:26:06 <myname> why would that be useless?
13:26:21 <moonheart08> Or rather, it'd be too complicated to implement with 80s hardware
13:29:29 <moonheart08> Could index a memory device as 2D if it's size is a power of 2
13:30:52 <myname> or you could just use modulo?
13:32:11 <myname> i know that, but you didn't mention performance yet
13:32:23 <moonheart08> Yea, won't work. Idea too useless compared to normal hardware.
13:33:37 <myname> you could also just split the address in half
13:34:13 <myname> finally, useful usage of al and ah
13:34:36 <moonheart08> Also this is an idea for custom hardware, not x86
13:34:45 <moonheart08> So it'd be a hardware implemented fungeoid
13:37:12 <myname> i am curious if you could use an fpga for a weird way of memory access
13:39:47 <moonheart08> cpressey: hia. Wondering if you had any advice for making a hardware based fungeoid run fast.
13:41:23 <cpressey> moonheart08: Don't give it an unbounded playfield? Other than that, not really, sorry.
13:44:08 <moonheart08> I already have one thing in mind: A directional jump that takes a numeric argument instead of searching ahead
13:49:36 <cpressey> moonheart08: Actually I do have one idea, not sure it applies to what you're doing, but: assuming you only have 4 possible deltas for the IP it might be more efficient to have 4 read-execute loops instead of a single read-execute loop that loads the delta and adds it on every cycle.
13:50:29 <cpressey> (More expensive too, though, in terms of real estate)
13:50:41 <esowiki> [[User talk:Groowy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66878&oldid=62956 * Groowy * (-2184) Replaced content with "''Talks cleaned at 29th October 2019 12:50 CET''"
13:51:31 <esowiki> [[User talk:Groowy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66879&oldid=66878 * Groowy * (+3)
14:04:47 <myname> execute every possible next instruction at once, choose the one corresponding to your delta :D
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14:21:15 <esowiki> [[PTSL/instrtable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66880&oldid=66877 * Moon * (+241)
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14:36:07 <moonheart08> cpressey: would require that it waste time loading data it won't use from RAM
14:43:46 <cpressey> I don't think it does; it's more like having 4 seperate CPUs, one for each direction, that "swap off" their processing to one of the others, when the direction changes. Massive waste of transistors, just to optimize the "advance to next cell" circuit.
14:51:28 <cpressey> Good grief, now I'm actually wondering if you could actually do that with 4 actual 8-bit CPUs
14:55:55 <esowiki> [[PTSL/instrtable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66881&oldid=66880 * Int-e * (+37) add headline with link to PTSL page
14:56:38 <int-e> (Editing the URL to get to the main page sucks... though maybe there's a prettier option)
14:58:09 <int-e> myname: How do you get back from https://esolangs.org/wiki/PTSL/instrtable to https://esolangs.org/wiki/PTSL if there isn't a link for that in the page?
14:59:10 <myname> from the diff pages, though
15:00:36 <int-e> can one /replace/ the standard headline? I mean, if the PTSL in there was a link, that would be perfect?
15:01:49 <wib_jonas> int-e: no, that would be confusing.
15:02:09 <wib_jonas> I thought mediawiki usually puts a link for parent pages under the page title when there's a slash inside the title
15:02:14 <wib_jonas> but evidently it's not doing that here
15:11:18 <cpressey> If you like clicking you can click "What links here" then click "PTSL"!
15:19:38 <esowiki> [[PTSL/instrtable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66882&oldid=66881 * Moon * (+23) n o i n c l u d e
15:20:07 <esowiki> [[PTSL/instrtable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66883&oldid=66882 * Moon * (-1) fix space
15:23:03 <moonheart08> int-e: Noinclude is nice for avoiding duplicate headers in the main article :)
15:24:24 <int-e> moonheart08: ah, sorry.
15:24:35 <int-e> moonheart08: thanks for fixing it :)
15:36:13 <wib_jonas> why is this even a separate article? do you expect to have a family of several languages that share the instruction table but are otherwise so different that they'll each be described on their own page?
15:38:54 <moonheart08> Keeps the core article free of a massive table in it's source. Makes it easier to go through
15:41:59 <cpressey> There's some precedent for putting distinctly technical things (proofs, implementations) in their own child articles
15:42:39 <esowiki> [[Transfinite program]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66884&oldid=66847 * Chris Pressey * (+27) +cat Program forms, because this is a form a program can take
15:43:15 <wib_jonas> cpressey: sure. but this one is transcluded into the main article. I guess that could change if the main article becomes too long.
15:43:54 <moonheart08> The main point *right now* is convenience when editing
15:45:23 <wib_jonas> Do we have a year category for languages that will be published in the future, like Feather?
15:45:38 <wib_jonas> I was just wondering if I should make an article for Magic-16, which is such a language
15:45:44 <wib_jonas> but it would be just a stub article
15:46:30 <wib_jonas> and TwoDucks according to https://esolangs.org/wiki/History#2023
15:46:34 <esowiki> [[PTSL/instrtable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66885&oldid=66883 * Moon * (+56) Collapse instr table by default, as not all readers need it.
15:46:52 <esowiki> [[PTSL/instrtable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66886&oldid=66885 * Moon * (+15) fix
15:50:01 <esowiki> [[PTSL/instrtable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66887&oldid=66886 * Moon * (+14) class="nowrap" doesn't work on here. Had to do it manually. style="white-space: nowrap;"
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19:38:43 <esowiki> [[BareMinimum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66888&oldid=66602 * Joshop * (+673)
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19:46:43 <esowiki> [[BareMinimum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66889&oldid=66888 * Joshop * (+427)
19:55:11 <lf94> list comprehensions is such a powerful syntax
19:55:34 <imode> you should add it to modal.
19:55:40 <lf94> [start...stop;step, filter1, filter2, filter3...]
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20:01:10 <kmc> monad comprehensions are even better
20:03:18 <imode> you ever get a feeling that you're not using a tool you made the right way.
20:08:57 <shachaf> [f(x) for x in xs if p(x)] # extremely powerful
20:09:22 <shachaf> for x in xs: if p(x): list.append(f(x)) # useless old-hat syntax
20:12:50 <b_jonas> shachaf: it's not useless, and I like it
20:13:20 <shachaf> the joke is that they're p. much the same thing
20:13:47 <lf94> I just care about having a good way to express how to define a certain list
20:13:53 <lf94> I couldn't find anything other than set theory
20:14:03 <shachaf> my fancy language will probably let you implement comprehensions using ` trickery
20:14:30 <shachaf> Did y'all see my fancy C fmt thing?
20:15:32 <b_jonas> shachaf: I glanced at it. it does look interesting
20:16:06 <b_jonas> http://slbkbs.org/tmp/fmt/fmt.h
20:16:09 <shachaf> https://slbkbs.org/tmp/fmt/fmt.h (example usage: https://slbkbs.org/tmp/fmt/main.c )
20:19:27 <shachaf> I like the init/chunk API. But it's possible that it has more overhead than it's worth for this particular application?
20:20:30 <int-e> surprisingly, "slbkbs" is not the result of applying a substitution cipher to "funpun".
20:21:56 <kmc> where is it from?
20:22:32 <lf94> monad comprehensions seem nice
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20:50:48 <imode> I have a term rewriting language and I don't know how to use it.
20:53:10 <oerjan> use it to rewrite your brain until you do hth
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21:03:12 <lf94> imode: your language is too powerful for the human mind :v
21:03:43 <imode> lf94: (`(`(K ?x)?y)) -> (?x) (`(`(`(S ?x)?y)?z) -> (`(`(?x ?z)`(?y ?z)))
21:03:52 <imode> I don't know if that works. but those are S and K.
21:04:06 <imode> there's probably some issue with parenthesization.
21:04:24 <imode> I don't know how I'd test that.
21:05:03 <lf94> SK make other known expressions
21:05:12 <lf94> just see if they make them
21:06:20 <imode> I think there's going to be parentheses issues.
21:07:25 <imode> `(`(`(S foo) (`(`(K bar) quux))) baz) yields `(`(`(foo baz) `((bar) baz)))
21:07:25 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: (`(`(S: not found
21:29:30 <imode> yeah it doesn't work.. meh.
21:51:00 <kmc> shachaf: the first gigasecond of my life is almost over
21:51:06 <kmc> anything more i should do?
21:56:24 <imode> I'll save that marker for later.
21:56:25 <esowiki> [[Smurf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66890&oldid=66825 * Oerjan * (+39) /* External resources */ Wayback
21:57:06 <kmc> it's national cat day
21:57:11 <kmc> happy national cat day
21:57:45 <arseniiv> (sorry for a multiliner which follows)
21:57:45 <arseniiv> there’s μ-recursion operator which takes f :: N^(n+1) → N and returns μf :: N^n → N such that
21:57:45 <arseniiv> search n = if f args… n == 0 then n else search (n+1)
21:57:45 <arseniiv> now we can generalize that from N to an algebraic type T in at least two ways. We searched [0, 1, 2, …] for 0, now:
21:57:45 <arseniiv> (i) let’s search `iterate (s args…) (z args…)` for `q args` where s, z, q are additional arguments to μ;
21:57:45 <arseniiv> (ii) let’s search some natural ordering of the type for the least element wrt that ordering. Constructing the ordering uniformly seems painful though;
21:57:46 <arseniiv> which do you like? I grow on (i), it’s even allows different types for the last argument of `f` and its value; the price of additional arguments seems more than fair
21:57:51 <kmc> imode: yeah i'm old
21:59:08 <imode> I wouldn't call that old.
21:59:11 <arseniiv> kmc: happy national cat day => my cat purrs at this and reciprocates
21:59:16 <imode> then again I'm biased.
22:00:09 <b_jonas> kmc: how close is "almost"?
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22:08:09 <kmc> imode: when I was 20, 30 sounded really old
22:08:23 <kmc> my gf would laugh though, she's much older than me
22:09:05 <kmc> turning 30 was kind of a big deal for me
22:09:14 <kmc> i decided to start giving a shit about my health
22:09:42 <kmc> I remembered that my paternal grandfather died at 48 due to obesity, alcoholism and smoking
22:09:48 <kmc> and 48 didn't seem so far from 30 anymore
22:11:06 <kmc> and i also started a big life change shortly before my 30th birthday
22:11:12 <kmc> which contributed to increased give-a-shit
22:11:36 <imode> developing apathy for your own life really does kill people.
22:12:17 <kmc> i had 3 really shitty years
22:13:41 <kmc> b_jonas: 125961 seconds left to go which is about a day and a half
22:15:53 <b_jonas> kmc: take a short vacation to somewhere nice where you haven't been yet?
22:16:18 <b_jonas> though that might have been better to start to plan earlier than a day and a half
22:17:02 <b_jonas> you can still do that after the round age of course
22:17:02 <kmc> I've done a fair amount of travel recently-ish
22:17:17 <kmc> i'd love to go out for a drive and a hike
22:17:20 <b_jonas> this year I've taken two nice vacations that I've organized myself
22:17:23 <kmc> need to search for those mushrooooooooooms
22:17:34 <kmc> I went to Texas to see a good friend, had loads of fun and then took the train back to SF
22:17:40 <kmc> (2 trains and a bus actually)
22:21:14 <b_jonas> please publish the next o strip, fungot
22:21:14 <fungot> b_jonas: officially i think two complement is rather arcane ;p ( sorry, dunno about quality yet still highly compatible body of real-world scheme code.
22:21:39 <kmc> b_jonas: the scenery on that train trip through the american southwest is amazingly beautiful
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22:44:21 <kmc> fungot: that's ok most people also think so when they are beginning learning assembly language
22:44:22 <fungot> kmc: wearing fnord even, i'd say no. way too expensive most of the big guys for a longish time completely filling a fnord thingy
23:13:41 <pikhq> Kinda fun how big life changes have cascading effects
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23:15:21 <kmc> 2 years later it's beginning to not dominate my life anymore
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23:16:47 * pikhq is very much not there yet
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23:18:39 <int-e> two's complement is arcane, fungot, where did you learn that :)
23:18:39 <fungot> int-e: so how far is the house? where is it? i see
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23:18:59 <int-e> fungot: I never answer intimate questions like that.
23:18:59 <fungot> int-e: i doubt that an ignorant can ack that he's an idiot and he should go away and die. oh, the ops have come to one conclusion: you have to
23:19:35 <int-e> close to threatening, really.
23:19:55 <fungot> int-e: can you elaborate, alex? an instruction to the function ft with ft and k-1
23:20:24 <kmc> pikhq: hope it's going well though <3
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23:25:19 <int-e> "Life," said Marvin, "don't talk to me about life."
23:37:43 <HackEso> ‘Life,’ said Marvin, ‘don't talk to me about life.’
23:38:17 <HackEso> herbalist//An herbalist is a list of herbas.
23:38:20 <HackEso> lba//This channel is having a Little Big Adventure(tm) with Linear Bounded Automata in devices using Logical Block Addressing.
23:43:40 <int-e> Ludicrously Ballooned Acronyms.
23:45:59 <pikhq> kmc: Oh, most defnitely is
23:46:37 * pikhq has a workout routine now!
23:49:53 <HackEso> fortran//FORTRAN was a language in 1957, in which our noble, honourable ancestors wrote programs on punched cards and paper tape.
23:57:57 <kmc> pikhq: ooh yay!
23:58:01 <kmc> I'm going to the gym tonight
23:58:10 <kmc> I go twice a week, for an hour or so
23:58:12 <pikhq> First time in my life I've, like, cared about my health
23:58:19 <kmc> it's not much but it makes me feel good
23:58:22 <kmc> pikhq: i know, right?
23:58:25 <kmc> and my appearance
23:58:38 * pikhq works out daily, though more like 15-30 minutes per day
23:58:56 <kmc> I went from "I'm uncomfortable how I look no matter what I change" to "holy shit I want to change a lot of things but I basically like myself"
23:59:09 <kmc> and now i've made many of those changes and well it's great ^__^
00:00:15 <pikhq> Right now I'd describe it as "I do not especially like how I look right now, but I have a goal in mind that makes me very happy"
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00:03:11 <kmc> I started noticing that I look a lot like my sister now
00:03:21 <int-e> mmm "I have a dream."
00:03:51 <kmc> i had some dreams last night
00:03:53 <kmc> i don't remember them
00:03:56 <kmc> but I think they were pretty bad
00:04:35 <pikhq> The parts I like about how I look, well, jeeze I look a lot like my mom
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00:26:09 <shachaf> two's complement is so good
00:26:19 <shachaf> Can you even believe how good it is?
00:26:37 <shachaf> I was, like, whoa, dude, the first person who figured out two's complement must've been so happy with it.
00:26:48 <shachaf> I looked it up and apparently it was von Neumann. Figures.
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00:30:06 <int-e> Always the same geniuses...
00:31:03 <kmc> is it better than UTF-8
00:31:25 <int-e> kmc: THat's a pretty low standard.
00:31:56 <kmc> what? UTF-8 is great!
00:31:58 <int-e> The ASCII subset of UTF-8 is okay.
00:32:00 <kmc> it's a really good design
00:32:13 <kmc> as far as an encoding for the Unicode character set
00:32:21 <shachaf> UTF-8 is good engineering, sure.
00:32:23 <kmc> as for the Unicode character set itself, well, it's a bit of a mess
00:32:28 <int-e> It's so Western-centric.
00:32:32 <oerjan> . o O ( but two's complement is just (mod 2^n) arithmetic )
00:32:51 <kmc> int-e: a bit, but backwards compatibility with ASCII is important
00:33:00 <int-e> (I may be contradicting myself here.)
00:33:09 <kmc> I am annoyed at how many short code units are wasted on C0 and C1 control codes that are rarely used, but that's life
00:33:18 <int-e> But I like being contrarian.
00:33:20 <kmc> Unicode made some mistakes but they also have some pretty severe constraints
00:33:26 <kmc> int-e: this is a good place for it
00:33:58 <shachaf> another fun thing is sincerely having and expressing opinions
00:34:17 <int-e> oerjan: I see what you did there. I think.
00:34:19 <kmc> I think gzipped UTF-8 is not too bad even on mostly-Chinese texts
00:34:27 <oerjan> int-e: someone had to do it.
00:34:28 <kmc> compared to, say, the 2 byte legacy chinese encodings
00:34:38 <kmc> also most things now are HTML and all the markup is ASCII
00:34:40 <int-e> oerjan: no they didn... err, we've done this already.
00:35:12 <int-e> fungot: can you loop?
00:35:12 <fungot> int-e: sherry was still nice with strawberries and whipped cream, not strawberries with sherry and whipped cream although the sun went down over the source for feeley's ring.scm?
00:35:23 <fungot> Selected style: oots (Order Of The Stick)
00:35:29 <int-e> fungot: what about now?
00:36:00 <shachaf> fungot: what's going to happen with xykon
00:36:00 <fungot> shachaf: that is by far the lowest price i have ever laid at least, that you would even suggest that i would do such as that, yes because that is what, twenty! four! the time, and there, that ought to be good.
00:36:26 <fungot> int-e: i need, a random castle self-destruct."
00:36:27 <HackEso> 10) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 13) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 56) <fungot> i am sad ( of course
00:36:49 <HackEso> 1050) <Taneb> I would like to learn how to use a sword <Taneb> And also how to ride a unicycle <Taneb> Perhaps not at the same time
00:37:47 <oerjan> i suddenly realize that my brain must have always imagined a juggling part in that quote that isn't there
00:41:49 <HackEso> 728) <fungot> itidus21: hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, h
00:43:34 <shachaf> Is there a general name for the kind of algorithm DPLL is?
00:43:46 <shachaf> I mean the kind where you guess and propagate and backtrack.
00:43:50 <HackEso> 1296) <int-e> fungot is here <fungot> int-e: may cause extreme loss of appetite! may cause severe diarrhea and vomiting!
00:43:56 <int-e> I forgot about that one
00:46:04 <int-e> shachaf: I'm not sure whether there's anything between the super generic "branch and bound" (which can involve branching heuristics including branching on something that has only one viable alternative first) and DPLL.
00:46:36 <shachaf> Branch and bound is more sophisticated than DPLL, isn't it?
00:46:57 <int-e> well, it does not have to be
00:47:10 <shachaf> Say you're solving sudoku. The obvious approach is to propagate all the constrains you can, then guess, repeat, backtrack, etc.
00:47:48 <fizzie> I didn't remember there was an oots style.
00:47:51 <int-e> the for SAT, "bound" really just means to immediately backtrack when one of the clauses becomes false.
00:48:23 <shachaf> ILP-style branch-and-bound seems pretty different from that.
00:48:41 <int-e> Yeah, SAT isn't linear
00:50:33 <int-e> I'd agree that it's a degenerate case of branch and bound. I believe the pattern still fits.
00:51:57 <int-e> (But if you insist on *linear* programming rather than more or less arbitrary optimization in a discrete search space (with some exploitable monotonicity to allow bounding), you'll have to disagree.)
00:52:47 <shachaf> Also, do all NP-complete problems have a natural algorithm analogous to that?
00:53:25 <shachaf> Say subset sum. I'm not sure offhand what propagation would look like.
00:53:46 <shachaf> Whereas it's obvious for SAT or exact cover.
00:54:28 <int-e> If the sum becomes too large, do *not* select the number. <-- propagation. Incidentally, a variant of bounding "branch and bound" style.
00:54:55 <shachaf> Is that a heuristic or a guarantee?
00:55:17 <shachaf> I guess it can be a guarantee, if you know how many negative numbers you have left.
00:56:13 <int-e> Ah, I had knapsack in mind... but anyway, a similar heuristic can be made up by taking into account all remaining numbers.
00:56:44 <int-e> You can also do something with remainders modulo prime powers.
00:57:24 <int-e> (If all but one of the remaining numbers are even, then you immediately know whether you have to pick the odd number, or not.)
00:58:14 <int-e> (Hmm, and I guess /occasionally/ one can get leverage out of doing this for moduli that are not prime powers.)
01:00:37 <int-e> shachaf: But I don't think it's inherent in NP... given an arbitrary verifier, it's pretty unreasonable to assume that you can predict its output (accept or not) early.
01:04:35 <int-e> shachaf: And in fact, pre-images of cryptographic hashes are a good example where propagation is hard to impossible.
01:07:10 <int-e> Any significant amount of propagation would weaken pre-image resistance.
01:07:18 <shachaf> One way I think of nondeterministic Turing machines is as deterministic machines with one extra "coin flip" primitive, where NP means that at least one possible sequence of coins will find an answer in polynomial time.
01:07:46 <shachaf> From this perspective the deterministic part is propagation, and the nondeterministic part is the coin flips.
01:08:24 <int-e> shachaf: Yeah but I'm focussing on the coin flips.
01:08:35 <int-e> So propagation only counts if it predicts a coin flip.
01:09:13 <shachaf> Of course SAT solvers don't necessarily guess the coin flips specifically, they just start guessing anywhere and see the consequences.
01:09:30 <int-e> The other view is tenable as well, of course. And in fact that's what happens when you reduce to SAT.
01:09:45 <shachaf> But unit propagation still corresponds to the deterministic part of evaluation, in some sense, I think.
01:17:19 <int-e> There *is* some funny interchangability phenomenon here... in order to compress certificates (the sequence of coin flips leading to acceptance), you can build propagation rules into the verifier.
01:18:10 <shachaf> You mean instead of giving the entire polynomial-size trace of execution or something?
01:18:53 <shachaf> Is there a pathological NP problem that's really hard to compress this way?
01:19:14 <int-e> But it doesn't really match how I think about a typical NP problem. I usually have a naive verifier in mind, which leads to a corresponding search tree corresponding to the coin flips. And then one can start pruning and re-ordering the search tree by propagation rules.
01:19:55 <int-e> shachaf: I'm sticking to cryptographic hashes.
01:20:36 <shachaf> Cryptograhic hashes seem very compressible to me in this sense.
01:21:11 <shachaf> You need to specify the entire preimage, but none of the computation involved in hashing it.
01:21:42 <int-e> The computations are part of the verifier, and I already said that I don't count that as propagation.
01:22:58 <shachaf> Oh, I thought "naive verifier" meant the opposite.
01:24:26 <int-e> To my mind, the naive verifier for hash function takes/guesses the pre-image, computes the hash, and compares that to the desired output.
01:26:07 <int-e> And the question is, can we get the witness size significantly below the size of the preimage. "significantly" is more than O(log(n)) where n is the problem size...
01:26:47 <b_jonas> int-e: not in the case of a cryptographic hash, if it's well-designed
01:27:00 <int-e> b_jonas: that's the claim, yes.
01:27:19 <shachaf> is this like explaining someone's joke to them
01:27:48 <int-e> it's nice to be understood
01:29:55 <int-e> Hmm, how close are random polynomial-sized boolean circuits (n inputs to n outputs) to hash functions?
01:31:16 <int-e> (Very unfamiliar territory for me. You probably have to be very careful to ensure that the functions don't become constant with non-negligible probability, for starters...)
01:31:35 <int-e> probability: what an unlikely nickname
01:31:46 <int-e> probability: how do you cope?
01:32:15 <shachaf> probability: you're non-negligible to me
01:32:41 <int-e> ...because what's the likelihood that this might come up as a topic...
01:33:42 <shachaf> that sounds too 4channy for me
01:33:42 <int-e> probability: do people ask you whether you're high or low a lot?
01:33:55 <int-e> they really should :P
01:34:08 <kmc> i do not have a halloweed nickname
01:34:11 <kmc> i meant halloween
01:34:14 <kmc> but i'm going to own the typo
01:34:28 <shachaf> So this one book takes expectation as axiomatic and defines probability as the expectation of indicator variables, rather than the usual way.
01:34:39 <int-e> kmc: it's perfectly sound grammar ;)
01:34:48 <kmc> the october Hempfest is called Halloweed
01:34:56 <shachaf> Do you like this approach?
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01:35:15 <int-e> I mean the -ed ending :)
01:35:31 <int-e> Or suffix as educated people might call it.
01:36:03 <int-e> Hi probability indeed. (How did I miss that!)
01:36:55 <shachaf> Oh, I forgot that int-e doesn't use colors.
01:38:13 <int-e> shachaf: Well it seems I didn't miss much.
01:38:40 <int-e> (the logs have colors if you want them to)
01:39:18 <moony_> probability: ok ima go do something elsr
01:43:27 <int-e> Must be a Markov chain.
01:46:20 * pikhq doesn't like Haloween nicks
01:48:00 <int-e> I didn't realize it was even a thing until 15 minutes ago.
01:52:00 <HackEso> 1316) <shachaf> int-e does not like this [...] <int-e> shachaf: I experience heightened levels of indifference :P <shachaf> Higher than your usual? <int-e> who cares?
01:54:10 <b_jonas> wow it will be pretty cold
01:54:27 <lambdabot> KOAK 300053Z 04008KT 10SM CLR 20/M07 A2991 RMK AO2 SLP129 T02001067
01:54:46 <lambdabot> KSFO 300056Z 30011KT 10SM FEW200 18/04 A2991 RMK AO2 SLP126 T01780039
01:54:50 <lambdabot> KSJC 300053Z 32011KT 10SM FEW036 FEW090 19/M02 A2989 RMK AO2 SLP121 FU FEW036 FU FEW090 T01941017
01:54:55 <lambdabot> KDEN 300053Z 36012KT 1 1/4SM -SN BR OVC020 M13/M14 A3021 RMK AO2 TWR VIS 2 SLP290 P0001 T11281139 $
01:55:15 <pikhq> 1/4SM? Pretty good all things considered.
01:55:36 <lambdabot> LOWI 300150Z 09003KT 060V130 9999 -RA FEW005 BKN014 06/05 Q1022 TEMPO SCT010 BKN020
01:58:14 <int-e> (I had to look up FU.)
01:58:39 <int-e> (And now I'm wondering what's burning. Or is it just chimneys?)
02:00:53 <shachaf> There is a lot of burning.
02:01:00 <shachaf> https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/map-how-big-are-california-fires-see-size-shape-dozens-n1073266
02:01:25 * pikhq is just really cold over here
02:01:32 <int-e> Oh maybe I should've looked up the airport.
02:01:37 <int-e> It makes sense now.
02:01:59 <lambdabot> KLAX 300153Z 21003KT 10SM CLR 18/12 A2989 RMK AO2 SLP122 T01780117 $
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03:30:49 <kmc> shachaf: how's the air in berkeley been
03:41:34 <shachaf> It smelled pretty smoky before but it seems better now.
03:41:55 <kmc> it looks alright on the map yeah https://www.purpleair.com/map?module=AQI&conversion=C0&average=10&layer=standard&advanced=false&inside=false&outside=true&mine=true#7.92/37.825/-122.396
03:42:08 <kmc> the bad thing about this site is that a lot of their sensors are down due to power outages :(
03:55:55 <esowiki> [[L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66891&oldid=66344 * Voltage2007 * (+703)
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04:09:14 <shachaf> I think Windows-style import libraries actually make a lot of sense.
04:09:31 <shachaf> Though they should probably just be in header files or something?
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09:14:34 <cpressey> Good morning. When we say something nondeterministic like lambda calculus or SKI-calculus is Turing-complete, we mean that there is at least one reduction strategy we know of for it that lets us simulate a deterministic Turing machine in it.
09:15:43 <cpressey> I was going somewhere with this but lost track while I was typing it out.
09:16:37 <cpressey> OK, well, I'll come back to it later.
09:22:37 <arseniiv> <int-e> I didn't realize it was even a thing until 15 minutes ago. => same
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09:35:34 <cpressey> OK. When we say lambda calculus (or some other thing that is per se nondeterministic) is Turing-complete, I think we usually mean there is a reduction strategy for it, under which we can show it can simulate a deterministic Turing machine.
09:37:10 <cpressey> But, you could show a direct simulation along the lines of, for every accepting path in an NTM, there's an accepting path in this nondeterministic thing.
09:39:19 <cpressey> And I'm not sure if I've ever seen a TC proof done in this way, actually.
09:41:25 <cpressey> I guess you don't ever *need* to, because a DTM can simulate a NTM and vice versa.
09:41:59 <cpressey> But what if you have some nondeterministic thing and you don't know of any reduction strategies for it that you can show let it simulate a DTM?
09:42:59 <cpressey> If you can show that it can simulate an arbitrary NTM, does that imply there is some reduction strategy for it under which it can simulate arbitrary DTMs?
09:57:17 <cpressey> I think it does, if you're willing to accept an arbitrarily complex reduction strategy (or rather, one that is potentially as complex as your simulation reduction is.)
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11:42:11 <esowiki> [[Digital root calculator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66892&oldid=46623 * Mechafinch * (+5) Fixed modulo value to 10 for accuracy
11:42:45 <esowiki> [[Digital root calculator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66893&oldid=66892 * Mechafinch * (+1) /* Efficient calculation */ Fixed modulo value to 10 for accuracy
11:43:59 <esowiki> [[Digital root calculator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66894&oldid=66893 * Mechafinch * (-1) Undo revision 66893 by [[Special:Contributions/Mechafinch|Mechafinch]] ([[User talk:Mechafinch|talk]])
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11:49:01 <esowiki> [[Textual subleq]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66896 * Joshop * (+878) Created page with "Textual SUBLEQ is a programming language that's similar to SUBLEQ but it uses strings instead of integers. ==Operation== Each line is of the format: <pre> [words]: [word] [wor..."
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13:42:09 <cpressey> And if it does, I think it means you can say things like: Second-order logic is Turing-complete.
13:43:16 <cpressey> Or maybe even: ZFC is Turing-complete.
13:50:22 <int-e> So is the existential fragment of Peano Arithmetic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matiyasevich%27s_theorem
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13:58:33 <cpressey> int-e: So is relation algebra: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relation_algebra#Expressive_power
13:59:22 <int-e> Didn't we agree to call that term rewriting?
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14:03:32 <cpressey> Yeah yeah. Well. That was inequational. This is equational, and seems richer, not that it matters.
14:03:39 <int-e> cpressey: The thing is, you can just directly simulate Turing machines with string rewriting systems. So this is *far* less surprising than the case Hilbert's ten's problem to me.
14:04:14 <int-e> Of course I've also studied rewriting for some time :P
14:04:46 <int-e> So maybe it's just that familiarity takes away most of the surprise.
14:06:45 <cpressey> What's surprising is that "Turing-complete" has such a heavy connotation of deterministic behaviour, statements like "Second-order logic is Turing-complete" are true, but they sound stupid. How do you "run" a "program" in 2nd-order logic?
14:07:23 <cpressey> You don't, you "search" for "proofs" instead.
14:08:35 <int-e> Loosen up and embrace nondeterminism.
14:08:49 <int-e> Or better yet, alternation.
14:09:17 <cpressey> Tell that to the CPU manufacturers!
14:09:53 <int-e> (Honestly, alternation is beyond my intuition. I have to translate it back to game trees.)
14:10:37 <int-e> cpressey: Actually I suspect CPU manufacturers would *love* more non-determinism... cache coherence is a headache. But nobody knows how to program this stuff.
14:11:52 <cpressey> Ha. Yeah. That's sort of my point (or is it? -- I'll think about it.)
14:12:46 <int-e> Of course embracing alternation is just a crazy idea... alternation is unphysical.
14:13:29 <int-e> (So is the TCS version of non-determinism unless you believe in quantum suicide.)
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14:25:24 <cpressey> <cpressey> How do you "run" a "program" in 2nd-order logic? <-- Perform Knuth-Bendix completion on it and hope for the best?
14:28:07 <int-e> What are your critical pairs? I suppose you can attempt to treat the proof calculus as a higher order rewriting system but then you run into the problem that higher order unification is undecidable.
14:28:19 <int-e> But sure, you can still hope for the best.
14:29:49 <cpressey> I read a nice explanation of the higher-order unification algorithm a while ago. It made it sound like a bloody hack.
14:29:50 <int-e> Maybe stick to FOL? Then you have some complete formalisms... and lots of research to try to make them efficient.
14:30:18 <int-e> Hmm, by Nipkow maybe?
14:30:36 <int-e> Though many people have written papers on this... and I don't really know the topic.
14:31:09 <int-e> Colleagues struggled with this. I kept away... but I picked up bits and pieces from conversations.
14:33:56 <cpressey> I think it was https://github.com/jozefg/higher-order-unification/blob/master/explanation.md
14:34:59 <cpressey> "1. Generate a solution 2. Test it 3. If it was correct, stop 4. Else, go to 1"
14:35:04 <int-e> Hmm, flex and rigid, that sounds familiar.
14:35:55 <int-e> e.g. https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.118.9080
14:36:12 <int-e> (it's deplorable that neither the text nor the source file seems to refer to academic literature)
14:37:00 <int-e> (at least not where I looked... I didn't look closely)
14:38:42 <int-e> I don't have the patience to read the text, I think.
14:39:09 <lambdabot> LOWI 301420Z VRB01KT 9999 -RA FEW007 BKN017 BKN050 07/04 Q1023 NOSIG
14:39:20 <int-e> still chilly... and wet :/
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14:42:27 <arseniiv> <cpressey> I think it was https://github.com/jozefg/higher-order-unification/blob/master/explanation.md => oh, unification with metavariables? that could help me with one thing
14:47:41 <int-e> arseniiv: as long as you realize it's a best effort
14:48:58 <arseniiv> better than nothing! I’m interested in cases he calls “stuck on a metavariable”, my simple system was more or less simple other than that
14:50:02 <arseniiv> the only solution I saw before was to make reduction steps explicit in inferences (that system was meant to check inferences)
14:50:46 <arseniiv> maybe this is even not that bad, but I didn’t pursue it yet, only theorized
14:53:28 <arseniiv> my favorite example with that stuck metavariable case was one of inferences using an axiom `a = b → ϕ[a] → ϕ[b]` for inferring `x = y → x = x → y = x`
14:54:17 <wib_jonas> there are so many ways to fall into infinite loops
14:54:30 <arseniiv> here one ends up with ϕ[x] ~ x = x and ϕ[y] ~ y = x and must deduce ϕ ~ z.x = z
14:55:40 <int-e> yeah, ϕ[x] ~ x = x has four solutions which is more than a bit annoying.
14:56:48 <arseniiv> at first I thought it would be feasible to add a constraint disjunction thingy but then (I don’t remember why) I wasn’t in favor of that
14:56:49 <int-e> and that's an easy case because it's merely *matching*
14:57:21 <arseniiv> (though I hoped my formalism would allow only simple cases like that)
14:57:43 <arseniiv> (I planned to restrict types of variables and constructors to a manageable subset)
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14:58:13 <arseniiv> (but I didn’t saw how it would help)
14:59:01 <int-e> I suspect rewriting is preferable to matching `a = b → ϕ[a] → ϕ[b]` in practice even though logically it's the same.
15:00:17 <arseniiv> int-e: you mean, adding a special rule that a = b ⊦ …a… → …b… for formulas and …a… = …b… for terms?
15:00:46 <int-e> It doesn't solve the problem, of course because you still have to unify a particular equation's left-hand side with a subterm of your goal...
15:01:02 <arseniiv> in my case it wouldn’t work as there are no intristic = and →, it would be meant as a metalogic framework
15:01:53 <int-e> One can argue that equality is ubiquitous in most logical contexts, it deserves special treatment.
15:03:00 <arseniiv> but how would I decide for which term sorts should I allow = and for which shouldn’t, and how to know which type … = … should then have?
15:03:13 <int-e> (I'd point to paramodulation in first-order logic, which extends resolution to deal with equality.)
15:04:50 <cpressey> When the metalanguage has to be able to refer to ⊦ on the LHS of a ⊦ you start to wonder why you are even bothering with → anymore
15:05:13 <arseniiv> int-e: though I could define = or ↔ and then mark it as an “equality-like thing”
15:05:22 <arseniiv> I hadn’t considered that approach
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15:12:32 <cpressey> arseniiv: The issues you mention seem eerily familiar to me; I'm sure I ran into similar ones (though not the same ones) while thinking about how to design a logical metalanguage.
15:13:16 <cpressey> I really admire Gentzen now ;)
15:14:34 <cpressey> I mean, it's hard to beat either natural deduction, or sequent calculus, and hey, they were even invented by the same person.
15:17:48 <arseniiv> cpressey: hm! FTR I tried to make Metamath a system with sorted terms, then I saw that λ-calculus naturally embeds into that, when trying to represent substitutions in terms
15:18:35 <arseniiv> going from Metamath, I inherited disjointness constraints for metavariables — was it in your case too?
15:24:06 <cpressey> I never quite got into Metamath. I came from reverse-engineering The Incredible Proof Machine and eventually realizing it's basically the same as natural deduction. Then trying to square that with term rewriting.
15:25:48 <cpressey> I'd really like to know what Metamath's doing, so one day I'll look into it again, I hope.
15:26:10 <lf94> this is the best prog channel
15:28:12 <arseniiv> and a description of a concrete logic would consist of declarations of some type letters (“completr terms” occurring as steps of inferences would be allowed to have only these types), some constructors of types u1 × … × un → t, again where t is a letter and ui is t1 → … → tn → t0, all ti also letters, this would allow variable binding in the constructor’s arguments; and finally there would be inference rules, each wi
15:28:12 <arseniiv> th complete terms and disjointness constraints as hypotheses and a complete term conclusion, and that would be all. Though I contemplated also something else what I don’t remember now. Ah, something akin to subtyping or simplistic type classes for type letters, to aid against constructor explosion in complex languages
15:29:19 <arseniiv> cpressey: The Incredible Proof Machine => hm I need to look that up
15:30:13 <arseniiv> anyway natural deduction is tg, I agree. Especially when you finally understand how to write its proof trees linearly (like a simply typed λ-calculus with pairs, sums etc.)
15:30:53 <arseniiv> <cpressey> I'd really like to know what Metamath's doing, so one day I'll look into it again, I hope. => AFAIK it’s a string rewriting checker
15:31:53 <arseniiv> so you can express a variety of mathematical notation, but you also need define that with a care, to not make parsing ambiguous
15:32:12 <arseniiv> so there are ubiquitous brackets as part of notation
15:32:19 <imode> huh, metamath's being mentioned.
15:32:58 <arseniiv> I really like tree representation, moreso a typed one to aid against many many typos
15:33:33 <arseniiv> and giving helpful error reporting. I hadn’t used Metamath program but I’m afraid it’s an art
15:34:04 <arseniiv> imode: have you used it in some way?
15:34:20 <imode> I've been looking at it adjacent to what I'm already doing, with curiosity.
15:34:58 <arseniiv> I just read notes on its site and looked at many proofs and definitions from set.mm posted there and read an article about its workings though I don’t remember much from that
15:35:59 <arseniiv> I find a goal to write a minimalistic proof checker noble but personally I’d rather use something with typed trees as terms
15:37:10 <arseniiv> and maybe as proofs. Though I think that can be simulated with linear proofs using explicit ⊦, contexts etc.. But maybe natural-style proofs are easier to check, IDK at all
15:42:59 <cpressey> arseniiv: I actually didn't understand until very recently, that Milner's theorem prover LCF was actually a "DSL" in ML -- proofs are data structures, and the type system ensures you can't build an invalid proof. (Previously I thought ML was simply the implementation language instead of the "host" language like that.)
15:44:38 <cpressey> So now that I've learned that, I wonder if it would be a nicer approach for a proof checker, than designing a dedicated language. I don't know yet.
15:58:13 <cpressey> And so it goes. I wonder when I'll have enough time to turn my attention to again :)
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15:58:40 <arseniiv> people seem to mention “Dale Miller's pattern calculus” as a decidable system with simple unification algorithm, I googled that and I see something familiar, “Abstract syntax for variable binders <…>” and inside the author talks about β₀-conversion which could be what I seek
16:01:33 <arseniiv> cpressey: proofs are data structures, and the type system ensures you can't build an invalid proof => oh, HOAS at its best; I hadn’t considered encoding proofs like that, this should demand a type system more complex than just for encoding terms
16:02:59 <arseniiv> @tell cpressey look at the logs at approx. 2019-10-30 15:58 UTC
16:04:04 <HackEso> 2019-10-30 16:04:03.252 +0000 UTC October 30 Wednesday 2019-W44-3
16:04:38 <int-e> yay for excess precision
16:07:11 <arseniiv> <cpressey> So now that I've learned that, I wonder if it would be a nicer approach for a proof checker, than designing a dedicated language. I don't know yet. => yeah, it’s nice but one constraints themselves with a basic syntax structure of the host language which can be not what’s desired, maybe not flexible enough. Though the idea of implementing the checker using a library of type inference for a complex language would both admi
16:07:12 <arseniiv> t using HOAS and making any syntax one wishes. Yes, I should consider that. Hm would Haskell’s GADTs allow me to represent inference rules for several simple systems I intended to encode…
16:09:12 <HackEso> Today is Pungenday, the 11th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3185 \ 714
16:22:23 <kmc> `paste bin/beat
16:22:24 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin/beat
16:22:52 <kmc> fizzie: apparently I am to blame you for this
16:22:55 <fizzie> Don't blame me for the code, I had a lot simpler implementation.
16:23:13 <fizzie> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/dea37ae411c0/bin/beat
16:23:41 <wib_jonas> simpler and more broken. does invalid double rounding
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16:26:44 <fizzie> You mean, first to seconds and then to .beats? Meh, it's good enough.
16:27:21 <fizzie> Also it had the @ in the output format, because Internet.
16:27:48 <kmc> ah, for a simpler time
16:28:17 <kmc> https://www.bonequest.com/1437
16:28:45 <kmc> https://www.bonequest.com/554
16:29:24 <wib_jonas> oh, it should have @ in the output format? I can fix that
16:29:45 <fizzie> TBH, I'm not sure. It's not like it's an ISO standard format.
16:30:41 <wib_jonas> yeah "@" prefix may be a bad idea. coreutils uses it to denote unix epoch times
16:30:56 <HackEso> 2019-10-30 04:00:00.000 +0000 UTC October 30 Wednesday 2019-W44-3
16:31:01 <fizzie> The watch had a @ symbol to indicate .beats, and it was often styled that way, but yeah.
16:31:26 <fizzie> "A day in internet time begins at midnight BMT (@000 Swatch .Beats) (Central European Wintertime)."
16:31:30 <HackEso> Fri Feb 13 23:31:30 UTC 2009
16:32:21 <HackEso> /bin/date: invalid date '@1234567890'
16:32:26 <HackEso> 2009-02-13 23:31:30.000 +0000 UTC February 13 Friday 2009-W07-5
16:33:06 <wib_jonas> maybe we should put some crazy unicode symbol instead of the @
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16:43:25 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ssblut * New user account
16:46:52 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66897&oldid=66870 * Ssblut * (+250) Hello world!
16:47:14 <esowiki> [[Cool]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66898&oldid=50641 * Ssblut * (-84) Improved spelling and punctuation, removed irrelevant details.
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17:37:31 <arseniiv> “In higher-order patterns, this uncertainty is eliminated by requiring the argument list t̄ in each subterm of the form λv̄.X t̄ to be a list of distinct bound variables w̄. => now let’s see if my formula with equality suffices
17:40:17 <arseniiv> x = y → Φx → Φy. At first glance, it doesn’t have that form: x, y are free, but we can do a trick: ∀x.∀y.x = y → Φx → Φy, now they’re bound; am I missing anything?
17:54:32 <arseniiv> also a quirk of my old approach was a two different kinds of abstraction types: (t1, …, tn)t (in place of t1 × … × tn → t) for constructors and a plain t1 → t2 for things like x.y.term, and two different syntaxes for applications: c(args…) and V[arg], all for better error reporting, as these kinds of applications are pretty different here: the former for constructing terms, the latter is for subst
17:55:23 <arseniiv> normal people use only →, as I see. This simplifies algorithm specification and some types of reasoning
17:55:46 <arseniiv> but maybe this idea of refined →-types would be useful for someone!
18:03:51 <imode> I think to make any progress in any of my projects, I need to agree upon small accomplishable goals and move forward with them. writing an interpreter for my language in my language is not going to be productive. making a text adventure or something will be.
18:07:16 <imode> I should probably add some kind of random access memory to my language to ease usage.
18:07:29 <imode> I can embed it in my queue but it's just not reasonable.
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18:27:22 <HackEso> olist 1184: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
18:40:44 <arseniiv> imode: watching video on Noita I thought how would it be if a game wouldn’t be certain about its rules sometimes
18:41:27 <arseniiv> like maybe there are several gods each wanting their own and subjecting the world to their conflicting wishes
18:43:02 <arseniiv> gods and their ill wishes of course remind me A tower of something, I forget what exactly, but it’s that one with soundtrack by flashygoodness
18:44:30 <arseniiv> there the god simply gradually wants more and more, at one point even disallowing the player looking at a list of all their commandments
18:46:01 <arseniiv> imode: are you writing a game in the queue language? not that one with `?patterns`?
19:09:07 <imode> yeah, not the one with patterns.
19:09:19 <imode> also, that sounds like tower of heaven.
19:09:30 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Heaven
19:10:20 <imode> noita is nuts. it makes me wonder why nobody's tried physics at that scale, though I haven't tried running it on my machine, so who knows if it's actually performant.
19:11:25 <shachaf> If only it wasn't Windows-only.
19:11:35 <imode> proton has worked well for me in the past.
19:12:25 <imode> I'm looking at ways of making my queue language more robust with respect to how I _want_ to program rather than how I _currently_ program. I don't have functions, just bare loops, but adding functions/subroutines seems like a waste.
19:12:46 <imode> I'm considering making concurrency a second-tier extension to the language.
19:13:34 <imode> { ... } creates a new interpreter running concurrently to the one that created it and enqueues the ID of that interpreter. you can then (via blocking sends/receives) send data to the newly spawned interpreter.
19:14:05 <imode> from there, creating things like RAM, lists, etc. is pretty trivial.
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19:16:30 <imode> { V begin V drop dup ^ repeat } 5 ^ $0 ^ V $0 ^ V $0 ^ V for example.
19:17:22 <imode> the spawned interpreter just loops repeatedly after receiving a value, duplicating it and sending a copy back to whomever made the request.
19:19:19 <imode> V and ^ should consume the handle, though.
19:20:34 <imode> there should also probably be some kind of "kill" function to terminate an interpreter given a handle.
19:22:43 <imode> wasn't there a brainfuck derivative that added concurrency.
19:24:09 <imode> brainfork, that was it. if you added persistence to the whole ensemble, you essentially have an in-memory database with a wild query language.
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19:38:10 <imode> an interesting snippet is a broadcaster. the protocol would be "I send you a 0, and then I send you a handle, and you'll add it to your list of handles." and "I send you a 1, then I send you a value, and you'll run through the list of handles and send it to all of them."
19:40:33 <imode> at that point you can build process supervision structures similar to erlang.
19:42:47 <imode> a tree node could be a composition of a broadcaster and a variable.
19:47:00 <arseniiv> <imode> also, that sounds like tower of heaven. => that’s it, yeah
19:51:53 <arseniiv> <imode> you can then (via blocking sends/receives) send data to the newly spawned interpreter. => nice! coroutines aplenty!
19:53:17 <arseniiv> <imode> a tree node could be a composition of a broadcaster and a variable. => you lost me
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19:54:20 <imode> a variable could be a process that takes a value, then loops infinitely. upon receiving any value, it sends a copy of the value given initially to the requesting process.
19:55:13 <imode> though I guess you'd need to send the process ID that you're currently "in"... a kind of 'self'.
19:56:04 <imode> so { V begin V drop dup ^ repeat } 5 ^ self V ^ would be storing and recalling `5`.
19:56:21 <imode> s/self V ^/self ^ V
19:56:57 <imode> "^" being "send" and "V" being "receive".
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21:33:05 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: 5 kilobytes doesn't sound too big. maybe you should try a different regex engine. do you use only the regular operations proper, or the irrational extensions like backreferences?
21:41:47 <imode> https://hatebin.com/frolcfqyqy a sketch.
21:42:18 <imode> constructing lists backward is weird. I could probably invert that to be prefix instead of postfix.
21:51:22 <imode> the way send/receive works is that receive essentially just... infloops. sends also infloop, but only if the target process' instruction isn't a receive.
21:51:49 <imode> a deadlock would be { 0 ^ } 0 ^
21:52:43 <imode> when a send matches with a receive, the sending end dequeues an item and pushes it to the receiving end's queue. both then increment their instruction pointers by one.
21:53:03 <b_jonas> this is strange. I have a distinct memory that when I saw that the new o strip was released, I invoked olist and thanked fungot, and HackEso even said "Thanks, fungot. Thungot." which means I wasn't typing it to the wrong channel
21:53:03 <fungot> b_jonas: i know, i was, uh, " child" parody so soon? we'll get sneak attacked if we go down a level and face me! ye may haf tha upper hand in it. or a pool, pal.
21:53:07 <b_jonas> yet that's not in the logs.
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22:21:23 <arseniiv> my first try of Haskell HOAS for natural deduction for first-order intuitionistic logic, at least it works for a simple zero-order example and when we don’t try to statically check what is the proof of what: https://repl.it/repls/ImpartialWaterloggedFolder
22:22:16 <arseniiv> because `:t f` gives overly general `F (a1 -> Not (Not a2))`. I’m not sure if that’s fixable
22:23:08 <arseniiv> (pf is too more general: `I (F (a -> (a -> b) -> b))`, but that’s okay, it *is* such a general proof)
22:23:38 <arseniiv> I’m not sure at all about encodings of ∀ and ∃
22:24:16 <arseniiv> if someone would interest themselves, please @tell me
22:25:09 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> yet that's not in the logs. => why, I do seem to remember thungot here several days earlier
22:27:48 <arseniiv> <imode> a variable could be a process that takes a value, then loops infinitely. upon receiving any value, it sends a copy of the value given initially to the requesting process. => only once? Isn’t that kind of too linear? :D
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22:28:18 <arseniiv> ah never mind, we could duplicate what we received of course, dumb me
22:28:45 <b_jonas> arseniiv: that may have been the previous strip, because this one went up only half a day ago
22:29:18 <arseniiv> ah so then you could be remembering that penultimate time?
22:29:45 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-10-21.html#lyb
22:31:17 <b_jonas> I guess when I joined today, I got distracted by all that talk about typechecking higher order types
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22:45:54 <arseniiv> high-ordering typechecked types
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23:09:20 <ARCUN> The newly featured languages seem a bit uninteresting, don't they?
23:17:29 <int-e> do you mean Thue, or the current candidates?
23:18:17 <ARCUN> let me rephrase: the new languages mentioned in the most recent pages
23:18:30 <ARCUN> such as textual subleq
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23:25:59 <int-e> Not sure that one is all that bad... well, apart from the lack of love the page has received, and perhaps that the halting problem is trivial (if I read the description correctly).
23:28:49 <int-e> maye be should start using stub templates?
23:34:47 <esowiki> [[Textual subleq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66899&oldid=66896 * Int-e * (+4) link
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01:56:40 <imode> forthers seem to be really against new concepts. must be a religion.
03:32:08 <imode> ArthurStrong: people who use forth.
03:34:40 <pikhq> It's a fine religion, really
03:42:05 <imode> it's like, nothing makes sense unless it's _explicitly two stacks and ANSI Forth words_.
03:42:40 <imode> and they hate anything that deviates from that. despite, you know, the main theme of the language is that it's relatively amorphic.
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04:31:31 <zzo38> What wording should I use at the top of the source file if it is meant to be public domain? Currently I just wrote "// This program is public domain." but someone complained (article <slrnqrkbf6.q9q.jbn@forestfield.org> on Usenet).
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05:29:40 <zzo38> I found the answer
05:31:04 <shachaf> The domain is public, but what's the codomain?
05:44:27 <ArthurStrong> shachaf: you want to find a codomain of f(public)?
05:55:48 <zzo38> Since sometimes there is a kernel panic when I use the printer with my computer, would it work if instead I use a Raspberry Pi computer as the printing server and then connect it to the router? Will that allow me to print properly?
05:58:34 <shachaf> Nothing will allow you to print properly. Printers don't work.
05:58:55 <shachaf> Though a kernel panic sounds like a particularly bad failure.
05:59:04 <shachaf> (But I empathize with the kernel.)
06:05:01 <zzo38> I wonder if it is a problem with the USB interface of the printer. This printer also has wireless internet, although I have been unable to get it to work.
06:05:04 <kmc> zzo38: it's worth a shot. i guess the question is whether the raspberry pi will encounter the same kernel panic
06:05:59 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, now I thought maybe it will. But sometimes it works. So, even if it does, at least that way it will not shut down the entire computer and only the printing server will be shut down in that case, I suppose.
06:06:25 <kmc> that does seem like an improvement
06:09:15 <shachaf> Can you run a virtual machine or userspace process and have that run the printer drivers?
06:09:47 <zzo38> If it is a hardware problem then I do not expect that to work.
06:22:54 <kmc> shachaf: I was going to suggest that but it seemed too silly even for here
06:23:23 <kmc> but it's true, it would isolate the kernel panics the same as the rpi would
06:24:15 <shachaf> imo you should invent my fancy programming language for me
06:24:47 <zzo38> I think it if is a problem with the hardware such as with the power or whatever, I am not so sure that it would isolate the kernel panics then.
06:25:38 <shachaf> I would expect that it's a driver problem.
06:25:58 <shachaf> What sort of nonsense could be going over the USB cable to cause a kernel panic?
06:26:29 <shachaf> What's my best bet for doing ELF linking?
06:26:32 <zzo38> I don't know, but I think that someone suggested here before it might be some kind of hardware problem
06:26:44 <shachaf> Is doing it myself too much trouble because of things like link-time optimization and C++?
06:27:12 <shachaf> Maybe I can use ld to do link-time optimization of libraries by prelinking them into one object file.
06:30:33 <kmc> shachaf: less than 3 hours left in my first gigasecond of life
06:30:40 <kmc> we made cake
06:31:27 * kmc hands shachaf a piece of cake
06:31:48 <shachaf> i want edible cake and not just words
06:32:05 <kmc> do I actually want to stay up until 02:12
06:32:10 <shachaf> today i made myself delicious noncake food
06:32:31 <kmc> i'm (to borrow a phrase you once used) pregretting this decision
06:33:20 <kmc> i think you were going to go with me to the flea market at butt o' clock in cupertino
06:33:27 <kmc> and said you were pregretting the decision to do so
06:33:37 <kmc> but in the end you didn't, so I guess that pregret was for naught?
06:33:40 <shachaf> I must've pregretted it so much that I didn't do it.
06:33:48 <shachaf> That sounds like the most useful kind of pregret.
06:34:07 <shachaf> Why regret -- or pregret -- things if it has no effect on your actions? That's just useless suffering.
06:34:25 <kmc> is the concept of pregret related to the concept of type II fun?
06:34:37 <kmc> it's sort of the opposite
06:35:05 <kmc> type II fun is motivated by pre-reminiscing or something
06:35:38 <kmc> my friend carson mapped out the 8 combinations of positive or negative feelings before, during, and after an activity
06:35:42 <kmc> and gave each one a name
06:35:45 <shachaf> i'm going to preminisce a bunch of \rainbow{coins} for my big ico
06:35:46 <kmc> but i forgot what most of the names were
06:36:12 <kmc> the name he used for enjoyment before/during, regret after was "hedonism" and I objected strongly
06:36:35 <shachaf> Hedonism seems to be the entire subset of enjoyment during, or something?
06:36:43 <kmc> and cited hedonism-bot from futurama
06:37:27 <kmc> I think it's a subtype of enjoyment
06:37:35 <kmc> but perhaps a tricky-to-define one
06:39:29 <shachaf> I was invited on a mushroom foraging trip but it turns out I'll have an MRI on the same day so I can't go. :-(
06:39:34 <kmc> that's too bad
06:39:40 <kmc> what are the details of this trip?
06:42:46 <kmc> there's also the matter of short-term versus long-term regret
06:43:19 <kmc> i.e. a wild night out may result in a hangover but become a fond memory over time
06:44:36 <shachaf> not sure about the details
06:46:15 <kmc> shachaf: i could bring you some cake on friday maybe
06:46:25 <kmc> after all you're the one who told me about my birthgigasecond in the first place
06:46:36 <kmc> it has eggs and dairy btw
06:46:54 <kmc> and a little beer
06:47:56 <shachaf> I guess I should keep track of people who are around your age who also have their birthgigasecond coming up.
06:52:50 <zzo38> I made ZZ Zero, it is a bit similar to ZZT, but ZZ Zero has its own assembly language. Here is an assembly language code in ZZ Zero: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/example1 Now I noticed there is a few bugs and a few things which could be written better than it is, did you find it even though it is not explained?
06:55:45 <shachaf> kmc: speaking of mushrooms are you mushroom pizzaing
07:03:16 <zzo38> Do you like ZZ Zero?
07:07:36 <zzo38> No, it is just the game program similar to ZZT, therefore I called it ZZ Zero instead.
07:09:55 <zzo38> How to improve the keyboard speed in BASIC? I did figure out a code to clear the keyboard buffer: DEF SEG = 0 : POKE &H41A, PEEK(&H41C) but this does not improve the speed of the keyboard, and only fixes it so that if the keys are held down to indicate movement, the move will stop as soon as the key is released, if the game speed is slower than the keys.
07:11:37 <kmc> shachaf: when is mushroom pizza
07:12:19 <zzo38> I like to make plain pizza
07:12:24 <zzo38> (without mushrooms)
07:12:34 <kmc> zzo38: which machine is that for
07:13:31 <zzo38> kmc: The BASIC code I posted is for PC.
07:13:52 <zzo38> (As far as I know, DEF SEG does not apply to any other computer)
07:14:26 <kmc> and what does DEF SEG do?
07:14:43 <kmc> I wrote plenty of QBASIC code but very rarely used POKE/PEEK
07:14:58 <zzo38> Selects which segment to use for POKE/PEEK.
07:16:19 <shachaf> zzo38: What are the ingredients of plain pizza?
07:16:46 <zzo38> (For example, if you write DEF SEG = &HB800 then you can access the video memory.)
07:18:10 <zzo38> shachaf: It is pizza dough, yes, although it is not entirely plain because I add oregano and oil on top too, usually, and sometimes also cheese (but not as much as the commercial pizzas).
08:21:33 <b_jonas> shachaf: quickly get a metalic hip prothesis to get out of the MRI and be able to go to the trip
08:30:13 <b_jonas> shachaf: you'll have to organize another such trip then
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09:13:31 <kmc> woo, made it
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10:26:23 <arseniiv> let the second gigasecond be even more nice
10:27:13 <arseniiv> hm it seems no one @told me anything about HOAS, let’s logread to be sure
10:41:16 <arseniiv> <int-e> maye be should start using stub templates? => hehe
10:41:26 <arseniiv> <shachaf> Nothing will allow you to print properly. Printers don't work. => sad but true
10:43:59 <myname> an esolang where the print command behaves like a printer with all its quirks
10:45:59 * arseniiv is going to add some quotes to HackEso privately and no one will know if he’s done something wrong
10:47:03 <myname> sometimes, print will just put out some random emojis upside down
10:47:32 <myname> other times, it will print white on black because somebody configured it to do so
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11:00:51 <myname> cut your pizzas into twelve~
11:01:30 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/
11:01:46 <arseniiv> oh TIL it’s written “croissant”, no saints and crosses, just a crescent
11:03:21 <arseniiv> no more private talk with HackEso :′(
11:04:48 <arseniiv> myname: is it because 12 has so many divisors?
11:05:22 <myname> arseniiv: yeah, there's a song from axis of awesome about it
11:06:01 <myname> an 8 slice pizza cannot be evenly shared by three
11:07:54 <Lykaina> woke up at 6:56am to someone knocking at either my or my neihbor's door
11:08:39 <arseniiv> I want another croissaint, but it’s not healthy (and so delicious) and I don’t have any left
11:09:18 <arseniiv> damn, I wrote “croissaint” again
11:09:47 <arseniiv> no anything, only tea and apples
11:10:36 <arseniiv> (I’m not entirely serious but there’s no pastry-dough-things)
11:10:52 <myname> i don't even get how you come to "croissaint", the pronounciation would be completely off
11:10:58 <wib_jonas> go shopping, today because tomorrow is a holiday and every shop will be closed. or order food from the internet.
11:13:44 <arseniiv> myname: I know only pieces of French orthography :D hm now if I to compare with something I remember, it would indeed obvious. Though before today I hadn’t even write it in latin script at all
11:14:53 <arseniiv> and yesterday eating the previous croissant I thought it was connected with saints, not thinking too much about what it would entail for pronunciation
11:15:24 <arseniiv> that one I think was the reason the second i emerged today
11:16:16 <arseniiv> wib_jonas: hm what holiday, is it international enough?..
11:17:14 <arseniiv> I have enough food but I want croissant but you may remember that I said donuts are the devil or something, and croissants definitely aren’t so far
11:18:25 <wib_jonas> Lykaina: yes, it will be --11-01, that's been a holiday for about ten years now
11:24:51 <wib_jonas> ``` hg log -T "{rev}:{date|shortdate}:{files}:{desc}\n" -r 11995:
11:24:52 <HackEso> 11995:2019-10-31:quotes:<arseniiv> addquote <shachaf> The domain is public, but what\'s the codomain?
11:25:49 <wib_jonas> Lykaina: dunno. I don't care about the significance or name of the holiday. that's for other people. it only matters that it's a holiday when most people don't work.
11:26:07 <Lykaina> i'm only awake cause some moron was knocking on doors
11:29:37 <myname> perfect time for youtube
11:33:22 <cpressey> arseniiv: lambdabot did not msg me! But I read the logs. HOAS is intriguing (I've been reading about it) but it sounds like you have to apply higher-order unification to use it, which sounds a bit heavyweight "just for syntax". Also I'm not yet clear on what exactly makes it better than de Bruijn indexes.
11:35:12 <cpressey> I find de Bruijn indexes hard to read, but you could always pretty-print them into variable names when dumping out a structure.
13:37:39 <arseniiv> hm I think I made my HOAS best it could be without dependent types. I bet it allows false-positive “proofs” (of first-order statements, as propositionally the thing should work as expected), though I’m lazy to search for them; https://repl.it/repls/ImpartialWaterloggedFolder
13:39:28 <arseniiv> cpressey: on de Bruijn indices: agree
13:46:08 <arseniiv> hmmm could I write something like `Ex :: (Term t -> F (a t)) -> F (forall t. (Term t, a t))`
13:49:55 <arseniiv> and then `ExI :: Term t -> I (a t) -> I (forall t. (Term t, a t)` and ``ExE :: I (forall t. (Term t, a t)) -> (Term t -> I (a t) -> I b) -> I b` or something
13:51:03 <arseniiv> would the code typecheck if this is a valid syntax at all
14:30:59 <wib_jonas> fungot, what's better for turning undead, a lathe or a turntable?
14:30:59 <fungot> wib_jonas: a lot to the paladins and a full line, much like this go board and replace it with the same way that i, myself, can hear??
14:31:34 <wib_jonas> a lot of paladins for turning undead? yes, that could work
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14:58:47 <Cale> `ysac Garlic Bread Guide - You Suck at Cooking (episode 98) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPuV52ydBfU
14:58:47 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ysac: not found
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16:13:28 <cpressey> arseniiv: Interesting, I should try to wrap my head around https://repl.it/repls/ImpartialWaterloggedFolder sometime (I'll need more practice with GADTs first I think)
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16:28:45 <arseniiv> ironic that I’m not so easy about GADTs still. It seems they are simple, but who knows what I could be missing. What GHC desugars them into wasn’t obvious to me when I read about that a week(?) ago
16:49:35 <lf94> arseniiv: GADTs are not magic...
16:49:39 <lf94> it's a fancy work
16:49:59 <lf94> First you start with ADT - what IS an ADT?
16:51:19 <lf94> (If I remember correctly) An ADT is a type with no parameters: type LoL = Int | String
16:51:35 <lf94> A GADT is a type that can take parameters (Generalized)
16:51:44 <lf94> Type LoL a = Int | a
16:51:55 <lf94> nothing else to it
16:52:11 <kmc> lf94: the implementation is fairly complicated
16:52:18 <kmc> because when you pattern match on a GADT, you refine its type
16:52:25 <lf94> what matters is how to use it.
16:52:27 <kmc> and this can be used on the RHS
16:52:40 <kmc> iirc, GHC had to add type equalities as another kind of typeclass-ish constraint
16:52:40 <lf94> kmc what is the implementation of quantum mechanics?
16:52:45 <kmc> (a ~ b) => ...
16:52:48 <kmc> lf94: this is of some debate
16:52:57 <kmc> but also it is philosophical in nature
16:53:25 <lf94> It's very nice to understand the inner workings of anything
16:53:36 <lf94> but in many cases, you need to understand the usage of the thing
16:55:10 <kmc> I thought that arseniiv was asking about implementation
16:55:14 <kmc> because they mentioned desugaring
16:55:30 <kmc> iirc the features needed to typecheck those equality constraints are also needed for type families
16:55:36 <kmc> gadt can accomplish a lot of the same things
16:55:40 <kmc> GADTs are neat though
16:55:52 <kmc> they get you a lot of the power associated with dependently typed languages
16:56:07 <kmc> and allow you to implement much more correctenss properties in the type system
16:56:45 <kmc> when using Haskell as a metalangauge, it allows to put the object language's type system into the haskell type system
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17:02:27 <arseniiv> lf94: hehe no, GADTs are trickier than simply adding a parameter. For example a DSL for simple expressions:
17:02:27 <arseniiv> Add :: Expr Int -> Expr Int -> Expr Int
17:02:27 <arseniiv> Eq :: Expr Int -> Expr Int -> Expr Bool
17:02:28 <arseniiv> IfThenElse :: Expr Bool -> Expr a -> Expr a -> Expr a
17:02:28 <arseniiv> we couldn’t write something as refined by using plain ADTs where we only can return `Expr a`, not `Expr Int` or `Expr Bool`
17:03:40 <arseniiv> <kmc> iirc, GHC had to add type equalities as another kind of typeclass-ish constraint => yeah, I was talking about that precisely :)
17:03:41 <kmc> there are weird ways to do it without GADTs
17:03:44 <kmc> but they're not as nice
17:03:53 <kmc> arseniiv: I forgot the name but there's a paper on basically how they did it
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17:06:23 <arseniiv> <lf94> but in many cases, you need to understand the usage of the thing => I join with kmc, surely, though ultimately an average human like me learns not by discovering representation nor by grasping API but by many many examples; how are these generated in each case is another question
17:08:21 <arseniiv> kmc: hm I can’t remember what I read too, why GADTs impl was even mentioned there, it seems that was a text on another topic
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17:12:36 <arseniiv> ah I remembered: http://dev.stephendiehl.com/hask/#gadts-1
17:15:48 <arseniiv> somewhat cluttered but there are lots of useful notes someone may have overlooked
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17:38:05 <imode> arseniiv: your perspective is refreshing.
17:44:15 <imode> also happy halloween.
17:44:24 <imode> feed your jack-o-lanterns plenty of fire.
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17:58:57 <arseniiv> imode: some years ago, I made an imrovised jack-o-lantern from a clementine and a clever(?) lighting
17:58:58 <kmc> happy halloween
17:59:16 <arseniiv> maybe I’ll find it and post a link
18:00:25 <imode> arseniiv: tiny pumpkin!
18:01:02 <lf94> arseniiv: that sounds cool
18:02:35 <arseniiv> imode: lf94: kmc: here: https://i.postimg.cc/5t3RY22v/DSC-1154.jpg
18:03:14 <arseniiv> as you see it wasn’t carved too deep but has a charming grin
18:03:16 <imode> it's so happy. ;~;
18:05:19 <arseniiv> I ate it after some time and was too
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19:10:35 <zzo38> shachaf: OK I looked at the fmt.h now. I think that the "c" format should not use UTF-8 and that UTF-8 should be a separate format (perhaps "u").
19:13:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: definitely not u, that's already used. I recommend c with some prefix, like lc or Lc or qc
19:15:51 <kspalaiologos> I started working on the disassembler for real, in Java
19:16:33 <kspalaiologos> just to note, these are not the formal asm2bf/bfasm instructions, just the building blocks the other part of disassembler will take care of
19:16:53 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: that has an unbalanced bracket
19:16:58 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: asm2bf: command not found
19:17:22 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, that would do. Yes, you are right, but fmt.h does not use the "u" format for anything, or most other formats supported by printf().
19:17:29 <HackEso> +>+[<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>>[-]<<<]<<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]<<<[-]>[-]>>]<<]
19:17:44 <kspalaiologos> so this will get translated to some longer code because most isn't yet implemented
19:17:56 <kspalaiologos> so instead of outputting mov r2, 0 it would output something like
19:19:25 <kspalaiologos> btw, I remember that I've added a newline preserving wrapper over bfasm, but it seems like somebody has removed it
19:19:29 <HackEso> bfasm is the brainfuck assembler. Documentation and samples: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/master/doc/bfasm.doc
19:19:34 <HackEso> Wrapper around bfasm, that automatically converts slashes to newlines and feeds it into original compiler
19:21:03 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: name thme both bfasm, but use the ! framework for the wrapper one?
19:21:31 <b_jonas> also, I think I'm not esoteric enough because I don't see the point of a brainfuck disassembler
19:22:03 <kspalaiologos> but now, I've got a few programs with the source code lost
19:22:07 <b_jonas> yes, I sort of understand the assembler
19:22:15 <kspalaiologos> and I can reverse engineer them by hand to check how are they made
19:22:34 <b_jonas> ok, that is an esoteric enough goal
19:22:48 <kspalaiologos> that presumes, I dumped all the assembly source code with my trash and it's long gone by now lol
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19:30:50 <shachaf> zzo38: It could also be {c|u} or something else.
19:31:19 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, that could be another possibility I suppose
19:31:24 <shachaf> I defined a show() macro so I can type show(x) to print out the type-aware value of x and also the variable name.
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19:46:31 <zzo38> Now I released ZZ Zero (although it is incomplete): http://zzo38computer.org/prog/zzzero.zip I also set up a NNTP to discuss it.
19:55:32 <zzo38> Do you mean the file I linked to? It is ZZ Zero; the read me file explains it.
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20:49:11 <esowiki> [[User talk:Zzo38]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66900&oldid=65855 * Moon * (+52) /* Dottyweb? */ new section
20:49:29 <esowiki> [[User talk:Zzo38]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66901&oldid=66900 * Moon * (+76) i am a derp who forgot to sign
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21:40:06 <imode> rust tempts me once again.
21:40:44 <imode> I shouldn't use it. every year or so I get tempted to.
21:46:29 <arseniiv> I completed writing out the definition of generalized Minsky machine, at last
21:47:53 <arseniiv> it ended up pretty natural, though match+destruct commands end up with quite many arguments
21:49:16 <imode> generalized minsky machine, huh?
21:51:37 <arseniiv> for example a machine for { data Nat = Z | S Nat; data List = Nil | Cons Nat } would have following commands (`−t` input register of type t, `+t` output register of type t, `s` state):
21:51:37 <arseniiv> Z +Nat s; S −Nat +Nat s; Nat −Nat s +Nat s; Nil +List s; Cons −Nat −List +List s; List −List s +Nat +List s
21:52:13 <arseniiv> imode: yeah, its instruction set is based on several possibly interdependent algebraic types
21:52:18 <zzo38> Why does arin.ga doesn't works now?
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