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03:43:05 <b_jonas> In RISC-V specification, in https://docs.riscv.org/reference/isa/unpriv/zihintntl.html table 1 seems to be missing size bounds. What is that table supposed to be saying? This problem is present in both the HTML and PDF versions of the manual.
03:56:50 <int-e> b_jonas: Oh, great. This used to be a .tex file: https://github.com/riscv/riscv-isa-manual/blob/cd9764fde9c704fb63e519eb7774e224835ee5f8/src/zihintntl.tex#L68-L84
03:58:14 <int-e> (the next commit removes the .tex file; you can see the .adoc version right beside it and it's missing the numbers)
04:29:39 <zzo38> I had thought, if the graphics card that I had described would be made, although 3D graphics is not one of the features I had considered important, I would consider video playback to be one; you might want to play two videos at once for the purpose of comparison but I think not more than two at once would be needed.
04:30:19 <zzo38> When doing video playback, I had considered that the low 4-bits of each channel can be used for opacity so that you can overlay translucent captions on the video.
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05:53:35 <esolangs> [[User:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178956&oldid=172459 * MihaiEso * (+24) /* My targets */
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06:25:29 <esolangs> [[Mathlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178957&oldid=178486 * Esolang lover123 * (+129) fixed some stuff
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08:26:54 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178958 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+405) Created page with "this is a notation for infinities, which I think can reach pretty dang high in the hierarchy of infinities: * <code>E[0](x,y) = y</code> * <code>E[1](x,y) = x + y</code> * <code><sup>y</sup>J[z](x) = E[z](x,y)</code> * <code>E[n+1](x,y) = <su
08:27:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Eliloulou10 * New user account
08:36:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178959&oldid=178953 * Eliloulou10 * (+240)
08:44:51 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178960&oldid=178958 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-34)
08:47:16 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178961&oldid=178960 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+87)
08:49:54 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178962&oldid=178961 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+39)
08:57:37 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178963&oldid=178962 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+53)
09:00:15 <esolangs> [[Mathlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178964&oldid=178957 * Dragoneater67mobile * (-14) better formatting
09:00:27 <esolangs> [[Mathlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178965&oldid=178964 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+5)
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09:05:05 <esolangs> [[Mathlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178966&oldid=178965 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+54) /* Implementations */
09:05:47 <esolangs> [[Super-Easy-Lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178967&oldid=178401 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+2) /* Cat program */
09:08:07 <esolangs> [[Super-Easy-Lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178968&oldid=178967 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+140)
09:10:51 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178969&oldid=178410 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+447) forgot one esolang
09:11:09 <esolangs> [[Spore]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178970&oldid=178952 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+52)
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09:33:39 <esolangs> [[Super-Easy-Lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178971&oldid=178968 * PrySigneToFry * (+79)
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09:57:32 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178972&oldid=178288 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-182) /* ppl i like and dont like */
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10:14:48 <esolangs> [[Mathlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178973&oldid=178966 * Esolang lover123 * (+405)
10:15:32 <esolangs> [[Mathlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178974&oldid=178973 * Dragoneater67 * (+1) /* */ grrr where spaces
10:20:20 <dragoneater67> also, whats that {{User's path|username=User:Yayimhere}} thing on your userpage for?
10:21:32 <Yayimhere> solve https://esolangs.org/wiki/Final_Word_Of_The_Day
10:21:44 <Yayimhere> (and feeel free. to ask any questions while trying)
10:23:03 <esolangs> [[Mathlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178975&oldid=178974 * Esolang lover123 * (+72)
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11:42:31 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178976&oldid=178703 * Dragoneater67 * (+151)
11:51:42 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178977&oldid=178976 * Dragoneater67 * (+21) whynot
11:52:18 <Yayimhere> dragoneatter67 thats not used for user pages, its used for like moderately famous people in our community
12:10:30 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178978&oldid=178977 * Dragoneater67 * (-21)
12:12:57 <dragoneater67> ive come to conclusion that first 2 properties are trivially cheesed
12:13:36 <Yayimhere> yea, but then MIAUMIAU would also be a quine
12:14:41 <Yayimhere> that works! you cant have any other printing though
12:14:59 <Yayimhere> ya still have to fix the narcissist thing
12:15:05 <ais523> I haven't heard the word "cheesing" applied to esolangs before, but I like it – it fits very well, analogous with the same context in computer games
12:16:24 <dragoneater67> my general idea is that since arbitrary i/o is not neccessary, so i can just restrict it enough to fit very specific usecases
12:20:53 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178979&oldid=178219 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-31)
12:28:25 <Yayimhere> btw dragoneater67, I think the narrcicist thing cna be done by making the input command always do narrcicist stuff
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12:52:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * * New user account
13:01:43 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178980&oldid=178978 * Dragoneater67 * (+19)
13:03:19 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178981&oldid=176044 * Dragoneater67 * (-7727) <dragoneater67> this should look like i sent an irc message on some clients!
13:05:14 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178982&oldid=178959 * * (+115) /* Introductions */
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13:23:44 <esolangs> [[2D-Reversable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178983&oldid=178846 * Dulph * (+80)
13:26:02 <dragoneater67> what does "every FWOTD command given as input to another FWOTD command could be replaced by a third FWOTD command" mean?
13:26:31 <esolangs> [[2D-Reversable/Python Implementation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178984&oldid=178818 * Dulph * (+128)
13:26:37 <Yayimhere> it practically implies commands can be applied like functions to other commands
13:27:07 <Yayimhere> and those are always rewritable as another command in the set
13:27:24 <Yayimhere> (note that it says this doesnt apply to commands that are created using this process)
13:27:32 <esolangs> [[2D-Reversable 2/Python Implementation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178985&oldid=178825 * Dulph * (+128)
13:28:23 <esolangs> [[2D-Reversable 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178986&oldid=178847 * Dulph * (+124)
13:28:52 <esolangs> [[2D-Reversable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178987&oldid=178983 * Dulph * (+44)
13:29:14 <esolangs> [[Reversable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178988&oldid=178815 * Dulph * (+124)
13:29:30 <int-e> b_jonas: https://github.com/riscv/riscv-isa-manual/pull/2821 (do you want and credit there?)
13:40:07 <b_jonas> int-e: wait, there's a typo in your patch, it now says "greater 1 MiB than" instead of "greater than 1 MiB"
13:41:07 <int-e> b_jonas: so how do I credit you in a github context :P
13:41:18 <int-e> without referring to this place
13:42:51 <b_jonas> https://github.com/b-jonas0
13:48:42 <int-e> b_jonas: Fixed, thanks. Also mentioned you.
13:48:59 <int-e> b_jonas: However, also decided I can't be arsed to make it more than a draft.
13:50:50 <int-e> (Also, ridiculously, they want signed commits. But they don't sign their own stuff.)
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14:07:06 <dragoneater67> does rule 5 mean that FWOTD can only execute the input ONLY if it equals its own source code?
14:08:55 <int-e> Oh I guess signing commits is easy enough to do even though I do not see the point.
14:09:32 <Yayimhere> dragoneatter67: no, each self interpret just also does the narcissist check
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14:11:21 <b_jonas> Question. Does the following Thue-like string replacement esolang have a name? The program has a starting string state and an infinitely looping sequence of fixed substring search and replaces. The instructions are executed in sequence, they always find the first match in the state string and replace just that one match, and if no match is found you get undefined behavior. This means the length of the
14:11:27 <b_jonas> state will always grow by a constant in each loop iteration, and you effectively program this by having an instruction that appends trailing junk to the string to ensure that the other instructions always match.
14:11:59 <esolangs> [[Tetrahedron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178989&oldid=177700 * Cleverxia * (+54) yes, children, I'm back
14:12:07 <ais523> b_jonas: there are lots of esolangs that do that sort of thing but I don't think I've ever seen that exact combination
14:12:09 <b_jonas> I guess that's kind of a boring wasteful subset of 1.1
14:12:59 <ais523> it isn't a refinement of Thupit due to the "every rule must always match at the point where it appears"
14:13:03 <ais523> in fact I'm not even sure it's TC
14:13:25 <ais523> if you already know the search string will be there exactly once, how do you do a conditional?
14:14:04 <b_jonas> ais523: the trailing part of the string state will be junk, so your instructions match there if the conditional should skip
14:14:34 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, first match
14:14:42 <ais523> for some reason I thought the requirement was to have exactly one match rather than at least one
14:17:11 <b_jonas> int-e: re https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez2-insane-fini.jpg , how many different shapes is this trying to deliver to the hub at the same time?
14:18:20 <Yayimhere> dragoneater67: no, each self interpret just also does the narcissist check (I resent this since I think I dont think you saw it cuz it didnt tag properly
14:18:34 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178990&oldid=178946 * Cleverxia * (+609)
14:19:08 <int-e> b_jonas: the game has 2 randomized shapes, one without crystals and one with crystals. So you get two different MAMs. I have two copies of each.
14:20:07 <int-e> Also in this particular scenario, shapes have 5 slices instead of 4.
14:23:30 <int-e> (so each MAM has 5 stages)
14:23:31 <b_jonas> int-e: I thought there were 5 infinite series of randomized shapes, at least in the hardest mode
14:23:59 <b_jonas> I must have misunderstood something
14:24:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178991 * Cleverxia * (+116) Created page with "If i'm not getting it wrong, it gets up to (1,1,1) ~~~"
14:25:50 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178992&oldid=178991 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+248)
14:26:34 <int-e> Hmm. No, it has 2 more fixed operator shapes than the other scenarios: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez2-700i.jpg ("insane") vs. https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez2-700.jpg ("regular") and https://shapez2.wiki.gg/wiki/Operator_Level#Requirements for the other two scenarios
14:31:11 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178993&oldid=178992 * Cleverxia * (+322)
14:32:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178994&oldid=178993 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+176)
14:37:46 <int-e> b_jonas: The only use of the number 5 that I can think of is the increased number of slices.
14:37:56 <int-e> I guess it's not really important :)
14:41:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178995&oldid=178994 * Cleverxia * (+49)
14:45:26 <esolangs> [[Rizzlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178996&oldid=165866 * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * (-1) bro wth was that \ doin
14:47:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178997&oldid=178995 * Dragoneater67 * (+43) sign ur comments cleverxia
14:49:22 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178998&oldid=178990 * Dragoneater67 * (-25) the esolang no longer exists
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14:54:30 <int-e> b_jonas: Oh on the off chance that you're wondering: there's no reason for the train terminals (to the far left and far right) to be flat like that; I could use 3 floors and fit them into 2 rows instead of 5. Which I'd do if I were serious about scaling things up further.
14:55:42 <int-e> (There *was* a reason: I used the same layout for an ad-hoc space where I made one-off factories. And it's *much* easier to do routing when you have some extra space. Also easier to remember what shape is delivered where.)
15:06:57 <esolangs> [[Here's Some Predefined Stuff. Now Go Invent Everything Else]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178999 * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * (+2055) the "i'm getting too lazy" language
15:07:29 <esolangs> [[Here's Some Predefined Stuff. Now Go Invent Everything Else]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179000&oldid=178999 * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * (+4) formatting gone wrong
15:12:23 <esolangs> [[Here's Some Predefined Stuff. Now Go Invent Everything Else]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179001&oldid=179000 * Cleverxia * (+15)
15:13:03 <korvo> dragoneater67, Yayimhere: I think FWoTD can't be defined. In particular, I'm not sure how to restrict the diagonal lemma in a Turing-complete setting so that it only generates one quine.
15:14:27 <Yayimhere> korvo hmmm. i hadn't thought of that. though there is not a restriction of "free output" here, so I dont know
15:14:59 <korvo> Yayimhere: Are you familiar with the idea that a program in a TC system can access its own source code?
15:15:20 <Yayimhere> korvo: no I had no heard that before
15:15:33 <korvo> What we actually mean is that, for any program in a TC system, there's an equivalent program which has access to a copy of its source code. It doesn't literally read its own memory.
15:16:07 <Yayimhere> well FWoTD doesnt remove all Quines, just one NON rotary one
15:16:28 <korvo> So if you have the ability to express Python-like lambdas, `lambda x: f(x)`, then there's always going to be the ability to augment that into `lambda x, source: print(source) or f(x)`
15:17:12 <korvo> dragoneater67: But then is it still TC?
15:17:44 <Yayimhere> like if you can only output a single character
15:18:12 <Yayimhere> like, minsky machine, with the command `E` which prints E. and then no other I/O
15:18:21 <korvo> Well, then what are you computing? Systems without I/O can only be TC in the sense that it's not decidable whether they halt; in order to talk about arbitrary effects, we do need to talk about the state of the system, including internal state.
15:20:00 <Yayimhere> in the case of `E` here, it could perhaps also replace every instance after it with increment of register 1, ju8st for example
15:20:24 <Yayimhere> but again, FWoTD does allow rotary quines
15:20:51 <dragoneater67> i dont understand how restricted i/o could hurt turing completeness
15:21:44 <korvo> Well, TC-ness is about being able to emit any computable sequence of symbols. It's inherently about output.
15:22:04 <korvo> (It's inherently about not halting, but Turing defined halting in terms of emitting symbols. See [[computable]] for details.)
15:23:55 <Yayimhere> I wonder what issues is with my construct above
15:24:26 <dragoneater67> if in brainfuck, . and , output into hidden append-only log, and theres an additional command called ? that just prints ?, is it turing-incomplete?
15:25:05 <Yayimhere> then you just look in the append only log I assume
15:25:30 <Yayimhere> then does it really count as output?
15:26:07 <korvo> dragoneater67: The inner behavior is still TC when we take that log into account. Your design is almost exactly like Turing's.
15:26:32 <dragoneater67> so we can have turing completeness with restricted i/o???
15:27:01 <korvo> dragoneater67: I think that you should pause for a moment. What does TC mean?
15:28:00 <dragoneater67> a finite state automaton hooked up to an infinite tape, or anything reducable to a finite state automaton hooked up to an infinite tape
15:28:03 <korvo> Maybe I shouldn't be Socratic. A TC system can encode any Turing machine, right? So that means that, for any Turing machine, the TC system has a program which faithfully emulates that machine.
15:29:16 <korvo> Don't worry about reducing your system to Turing machines. Either your system is computable, in which case it's reducible, or it's not computable. Computability is more important.
15:30:43 <int-e> "faithful" is vague here, isn't it. (The definitions I'm familiar with care about acceptance, rejection, or possibly just about termination vs. non-termination)
15:30:57 <korvo> So, for BF that only prints ?, there's still TC questions. The analogue of (Beeping) Busy Beaver is here: for a fixed size of programs, what's the largest program that prints finitely many ? There's also circular Halting: for a fixed program, how many ? does it print?
15:32:32 <korvo> int-e: I'm using it in the category-theoretic sense of "faithful functor", a categorified embedding. But yeah, we aren't actually putting in the work. Turing showed that acceptance and rejection can encapsulate all other questions of computability, and I guess we've been using that shortcut ever since.
15:32:43 <int-e> ("faithful" might imply a much more finely grained correspondance where you have to be able to effectively identify tapes, states, and execution steps)
15:33:46 <dragoneater67> i think that we can encode the tape into a large unary number, then output it using the ? instruction
15:34:00 <korvo> dragoneater67: I suppose that the insight I'm getting at is: either you're TC, so you can emit any computable sequence including sequences which code for the current program (quines), or you're not TC.
15:34:38 <Yayimhere> but then, what about the quineless thing that was talked about on sjmg(I think)'s talk page
15:35:08 <dragoneater67> i just realized that this also implies that we can encode the program's source code into a large unary prime and output it
15:36:03 <korvo> Hofstadter would say that it's still a self-rep. I don't know if he used the word "pseudoquine" but I could check.
15:36:10 <int-e> korvo: You realize that saying "in the category-theoretic sense" raises more questions than it answers ;-) (Apart from the extra level of obfuscation (subjective), it really doesn't say wht observables of TMs you care about, which was the point I was trying to make.)
15:36:12 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179002&oldid=178979 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+63) /* Properties */
15:36:21 <ais523> korvo: I would say "encode" rather than "emit" – languages can be TC without having any reasonable form of output
15:36:43 <Yayimhere> I changed the definition for it to be a little more precise of the type of quine
15:36:57 <ais523> but they have to be able to somehow internally represent any structure, which can be used as an output substitute but might be hard to decode
15:37:19 <korvo> int-e: Oh, sorry. In category theory, we can only identify up to isomorphism; if two TMs have isomorphic behavior then they might as well be a single object. I don't really care about which notion of isomorphism we're using though; it can be uncomputable.
15:37:31 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179003&oldid=179002 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+27) /* Properties */
15:37:52 <Yayimhere> specifically to standard terminal out, not in program mmemory
15:38:09 <korvo> ais523: Right, we have to be able to slice open the egg and see what was developing. And the insides cannot be too organized or else they can be interpreted like syntax, defeating Rice's theorem.
15:38:24 <int-e> korvo: You're still making the observables implicit!
15:38:41 <int-e> Anyway, I'll relent.
15:39:05 <Yayimhere> this was what I'd call an interesting conversation
15:39:12 <korvo> int-e: It's all good. I think that your question's well-motivated. But isn't a TM just a set-theoretic object? Like, isn't it a tuple?
15:40:51 <korvo> ...Sorry, I realize that I'm just making you invent the observables that you care about. I think we can care about Turing's observables for now. The issue is then, well, what of I/O? Turing was talking about emitting initial segments of computable binary sequences.
15:41:15 <korvo> Yayimhere: What do you think about the diagonal lemma?
15:42:04 <int-e> A TM can be seen through many lenses: 1) A typle of states and symboles and transitions etc. 2) A function from starting configuration to execution traces (streams of configurations) 2) Partial functions from initial configuration (or some import encoding it) to a final configuration (or decoded output) 3) same, but specifically only look at whether the final state is an accepting state or not.
15:42:39 <int-e> This doesn't change just because you're using category theory.
15:42:46 <Yayimhere> korvo: i have not heard of it, but I will look it up
15:42:55 <int-e> Except that 1) would become very awkard :P
15:44:10 <dragoneater67> the idea i always had about TMs is that arbitrary i/o is unneccessary if everything can be encoded in the program's internal state
15:44:11 <korvo> Yep. We do get another lens, though: 4) a computational universe or Turing category: a category with N where every object can be encoded and decoded into N. It's similar to (2) but arrows are computable rather than partial; instead of getting stuck they can "run" forever.
15:47:38 <int-e> korvo: That helps flesh out the picture.
15:48:06 <int-e> (My list could never have been exhaustive, of course.)
15:48:30 <korvo> int-e: Here's a taste of the power of (4). In a computable universe, for any object C, there's a total isomorphism N → C; this is the coding of C in N. Also the universe is Cartesian closed. So there's a total isomorphism N → [N, N].
15:49:13 <int-e> Yeah I can map that back to what I know about recursive and partial recursive functions.
15:49:14 <Yayimhere> but, korvo, do you think my definition of a quine works better now?
15:49:56 <korvo> An object Y has the fixed-point property when for all t : Y → Y there exists y : Y s.t. t(y) = y; that is, all endomorphisms on Y have fixed points. Then, because isomorphisms are surjections, the code N → [N, N] has the fixed-point property. That's Kleene's second recursion theorem, also called Rogers' fixed point, and it is usually way nastier to prove.
15:50:47 <int-e> (Tangentially... maybe I should configure my client to ask for confirmation whenever I type ":P". I wonder whether it can even do that.)
15:51:24 <korvo> Yayimhere: Not really. I think that you haven't quite approached what I mentioned earlier: the diagonal lemma in a TC system makes it so that any program can have a copy of its own source code, so it's hard to imagine a TC system that forbids quines. (If there were no quines then we could add exactly one quine, as you know.)
15:55:01 <korvo> It's okay to not have a solution for this. It's also okay to come up with something extremely clever which I don't accept at first. I do think that this is a good example of why we can't ignore complexity theory when designing languages.
15:55:41 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179004&oldid=179003 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+25)
15:55:50 <korvo> (It's also an excellent example of why we should implement languages as we design them. If you had a private Python script implementing a solution then you could at least test the attempts that people make.)
15:57:26 <Yayimhere> at this point I am still a little confused on how, even if it is allowed for the program to be in memory, just not the terminal, it still is impossible
15:57:50 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179005&oldid=179004 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-28) /* Properties */
15:58:08 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179006&oldid=179005 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+5) /* Properties */
15:59:17 <korvo> Yayimhere: I don't want to just quote myself, but I think I put it well on [[self-reproducing object]]. "Specifically, for any legal syntax fragment Q which is open on a single variable, there is a closed fragment Q("Q") which applies that fragment to its own quotation. Applying the diagonal lemma in this fashion is called quining."
16:00:16 <korvo> So you have to attack one of those premises: either it's not legal to have open programs somehow (hard!) or quotation somehow can't quote all programs (harder!)
16:00:40 <korvo> Like, the difference between `lambda x: 42` and `(lambda x: 42)(5)`. The former is open and the latter is closed.
16:00:56 <korvo> ...No, wait, that's wrong. Sorry.
16:01:09 <korvo> The difference between `x` and `lambda x: x`. The former is open and the latter is closed.
16:01:19 <korvo> Sorry, I'm clearly still asleep.
16:01:44 <korvo> ...No, that's wrong too. Fuck. I should eat breakfast.
16:02:20 <Yayimhere> oh wow you haven't? damn. yea, dont let me be a distraction from eating
16:03:12 <int-e> x is open (has a free variable). \x. x is closed (has no free variables)
16:04:00 <Yayimhere> anyways, I removed the Turing Complete requirement
16:05:08 <Yayimhere> (it is hard to ensure while designing anyway)
16:07:21 <korvo> Yayimhere: Yes. What I think you'll eventually find is that TC-ness is a natural barrier which happens to occur in lots of little systems when we apply them to the real world. Design your systems to solve real problems, numerical problems, geometric problems, combinatorial problems, and you'll find TC behavior.
16:08:53 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179007&oldid=179006 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+5) /* Properties */
16:09:22 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179008&oldid=179007 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+2) /* Properties */
16:10:03 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179009&oldid=179008 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-12) /* Properties */
16:11:06 <korvo> int-e: Trust no one, not even me. >:3
16:15:09 <korvo> dragoneater67: Yes! And the evil witch who brought it to me was so nice. She was cackling the entire time and saying that it would change my life!
16:15:59 <int-e> korvo: Eh, I'm no stranger to the compounding effect of confusion.
16:16:37 <int-e> (Get one thing wrong, doubt everything.)
16:16:44 <korvo> int-e: If I'm wrong the first time, I'm probably still wrong the second time. Like, that's a track record of proven performance.
16:17:29 <int-e> the gamer term is tilting :)
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16:35:58 <Yayimhere> me myself have set dragon eater upon a task, and have been doing nothing but giving directions(and observing)
16:36:15 <Yayimhere> or I guess that is before the little discussion we had above
16:37:49 <Yayimhere> I saw you Mhm! language, I like it
16:37:55 <Yayimhere> though it still slightly confuses me
16:38:23 <aadenboy> I threw it together in one (half) school day
16:38:33 <Yayimhere> coould have a bit of a cleaner definition, but otherwise its good(I assume some of the weirdness is because its an April fools joke)
16:39:15 <aadenboy> it was definitely not extremely thought out (because it was originally an april fools joke)
16:39:33 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179010&oldid=178972 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+42) /* esolangs */
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16:40:06 <Yayimhere> if you'd be ok with it I'd like to make the article a little clearer.
16:40:22 <Yayimhere> (I know the be bold with editing thing but oh well)
16:44:38 <aadenboy> expanding the comments in the A+B program
16:45:05 <Yayimhere> im quite surprised ive caught you for once in a place where our time zones lime up lol
16:46:04 <aadenboy> I just haven't been logging on frequently lol
16:46:49 <Yayimhere> me neither(but thats because I left the community for a bit and then came back)
16:47:21 <korvo> You're doing fine. There are some folks who take multi-year breaks between editing sessions.
16:48:08 <Yayimhere> (i didnt intend it to seem like I was disappointed in myself for it or anything likee that)
16:52:58 <esolangs> [[Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179011&oldid=178891 * Aadenboy * (+663) /* A+B Problem */
16:54:01 <aadenboy> Mhm!'s irreversable state reminds me of Countable
16:56:10 <Yayimhere> you recent languages seem like just a chain from iterate lol
16:57:16 <Yayimhere> its kinda similair to Do Minsky which happened a while ago
16:57:54 <Yayimhere> and filled up practically my whole interview with Daniel temkin lol
16:58:28 <aadenboy> been wanting to ask how that worked
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16:59:44 <Yayimhere> I just emailed him, and then he interview over email
16:59:57 <Yayimhere> he gives like he questions in lil' groups
17:01:04 <Yayimhere> i was so very surprised when he said yes
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17:17:04 <Yayimhere> btw aadenboy, do you want to do the same challeneg as dragoneater?
17:17:21 <aadenboy> I'm good, I'm working on other stuff atm
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18:34:08 <Yayimhere> i find it interesting how sometimes IRC will show the quit message but not the join message
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18:37:39 <dragoneater68> im not on my main dragoneater67 acc bc its taken by my laptop
18:37:50 <FireFly> Yayimhere: depends on the client.. both get sent by server (join & quit I mean)
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18:38:49 <FireFly> the joins and quits can get noisy in some channels, so some clients have (more or less smart) filters and settings to filter them out
18:39:05 <FireFly> I'm not sure what the current webchat does really
18:40:04 <Yayimhere> i srsly dont know that much 'bout IRC whatsoever
18:40:22 <somefan> i used libera, when users join and quit with no say, the join/quit messages cancel out i think
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18:40:49 <Yayimhere> I know, but I mean, I know nothing about clients, the inner workings, ect.
18:41:27 <somefan> i'm currently reading the irc client protocol (rfc 2812)
18:42:08 <somefan> i'm using it to build my own client, it's exhaustive, but it may help with learning the internals
18:42:20 <FireFly> I use weechat, works well enough for me
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18:43:19 <Yayimhere> its just the same as having to reload discord every other second for some reason
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18:46:40 <ais523> dragoneater81: that's tricky to do in a generalised way because the Collatz conjecture is very close to being Turing-complete on its own
18:46:58 <Yayimhere> idk if we are talking 'bout the same ting
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18:48:00 <ais523> Yayimhere: the original collatz function halves even numbers and calculates 3n+1 for odd numbers
18:48:29 <ais523> and the conjecture is that if you iterate it, it reaches 1 from any positive integer
18:49:18 <dragoneater68> lets say that we have an unbounded nonnegative integer accumulator A
18:49:35 <ais523> if you replace "odd" and "even" by values modulo a number other than 2, and allow arbitrary scale factors (the original Collatz function uses ½ and 3 as the scale factors), it's Turing-complete
18:49:54 <dragoneater68> the program runs in an implicit infinite loop (e.g. when end is reached, it loops back to start)
18:49:55 <ais523> the specific choie of numbers ½n+0 and 3n+1 aren't known to be Turing-complete, though
18:50:20 <ais523> the addition isn't needed for TCness, either, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tip is TC using just the multiplication
18:51:18 <ais523> and another interesting special case is when all the scale factors are the same (and only the additive factor changes), this one isn't known to be TC but appears in multiple unsolved problems
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18:52:23 <ais523> e.g. the Hydra/Antihydra problem maps even n to 1½n and odd n to 1½n-½, and asks whether you ever end up with an extreme bias in odd versus even results (twice as many of one as the other)
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18:52:37 <ais523> it really seems like it shouldn't but it is extremely hard to prove this
18:55:02 <b_jonas> oh, so in that set of Collatz functions, you allow the program to give as many different scaling factors as your modulus?
18:55:41 <ais523> b_jonas: in traditional generalized Collatz and Tip, you can have a different scale factor for every value of the modulus, yes
18:55:55 <ais523> e.g. ½ and 3 in the original Collatz function
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18:56:41 <ais523> I use "consistent Collatz" as a name for the version where all the scale factors are the same (this is the version that https://esolangs.org/wiki/Feed_the_Chaos implements)
18:57:07 <Yayimhere> wbu collatz where its always a value under one for the first value?
18:57:20 <Yayimhere> in other words it always divides(by an integer)
18:57:21 <ais523> consistent Collatz can be simulated in quasilinear time despite the size of the numbers growing exponentially
18:57:59 <ais523> Yayimhere: I have to be careful talking about this, because I studied it for languages like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Conedy but I think I screwed up / got confused, so my memories about how this works are based on incorrect data
18:59:25 <ais523> in general I am surprisingly bad at reasoning about this sort of "inverted Collatz" where you are using values between 0 and 1 and scaling based on the interval, rather than using integers and scaling based on the modulus
19:00:27 <int-e> . o O ( arithmetic coding vs range coding )
19:00:44 <ais523> int-e: huh, that does seem very related
19:01:25 <Yayimhere> is there a "branchless" way to define generalized collatz btw? or atleast is one known
19:01:55 <b_jonas> I had heard that some generalizations of Collatz are computationally hard, but without explanation, and this generalization is a nice explanation for thiat
19:02:14 <ais523> Yayimhere: you need something conditional-like but it can be a branchless conditional
19:02:33 <ais523> e.g. a Tip interpreter usually isn't branchy at all, it just takes the modulus, indexes into an array, and multiplies
19:02:44 <ais523> but array indexing is basically a form of branchless conditional
19:02:45 <int-e> ais523: oh there is a connection there at a conceptual level; I just don't see that it's useful if your goal is to tackle the Collatz type conjectures
19:02:50 <b_jonas> specifically I heard this as explanation for why eg. Turing-machines with very few states and symbols can have hard to predict behavior
19:03:00 <ais523> int-e: my goal is more to work out Conedy's computational class
19:04:14 <ais523> I would describe what the language does as follows: you have a working number which is a bounded rational (going out of bounds = halt), you can jump based on whether it is greater than or less than a fixed rational, you can also add, subtract, multiply by or divide by a constant
19:04:33 <ais523> and I originally assumed this was analogous to generalized Collatz and then realised that it wasn't
19:04:37 <ais523> because you can't do a modulo test
19:06:18 <korvo> dragoneater67: I found catgirl to be quite nice too.
19:08:09 <b_jonas> that's a nice natural-sounding description
19:08:32 <int-e> ais523: ah you made the nets closed. awkward
19:08:55 <int-e> (but eh, several things are awkward compared to Trajedy)
19:10:26 <aadenboy> dragoneater67: I'm using an older KVIrc client
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19:21:03 <ais523> int-e: I don't even think closedness versus openness matters here? if hitting a net is closed, missing it is open
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19:23:03 <int-e> ais523: Hmm, maybe. But this prevents you from making a closed diagonal line of nets, for example, the way you can with mirrors in Trajedy. But yeah maybe you don't have to.
19:29:45 <int-e> I see that closedness makes defining things easier; to make open nets work, you'd have to do the ray intersection test with the open net, but then still use the closed one for finding the point of collision and determining the new trajectory.
19:34:37 <somefan> i meant gamja, not libera, the irc server itself. libera also has kiwi as a web client, but i'm not sure how that differs
19:34:57 <Yayimhere> I think ive made an interesting idea for a lang
19:36:10 <Yayimhere> in which every cell holds a reference to a subsection of the whole tape(which ofcourse itself nests, and so on)
19:36:24 <Yayimhere> and then you'd be able to change which section, making very non local changes
19:36:33 <Yayimhere> and you'd be able to nest into the cell ofc
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20:33:59 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nightcat47853456759 * New user account
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22:29:58 <Sgeo> Some time ago someone here wrote some Burroughs E101 code. I should probably figure out where, since I've resumed writing my E101 emulator
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