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01:05:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Aidanace3 * New user account
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01:13:40 <Sgeo> int-e and sorear both wrote sorter things for E101 but the debian pastebin expired. I saved sorear's
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01:39:41 <Sgeo> ...or maybe it was pseudocode, sorry.
01:39:44 <Sgeo> I don't remember
01:40:05 <int-e> it's likely lost anyway
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02:52:17 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179012&oldid=178998 * PrySigneToFry * (+257)
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04:03:17 <esolangs> [[Here's Some Predefined Stuff. Now Go Invent Everything Else]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179013&oldid=179001 * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * (+2633) update :DDD
04:10:43 <esolangs> [[Here's Some Predefined Stuff. Now Go Invent Everything Else]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179014&oldid=179013 * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * (+102) i forgor the categories and some stuff
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04:38:09 <esolangs> [[Here's Some Predefined Stuff. Now Go Invent Everything Else]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179015&oldid=179014 * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * (+650) misclick
04:39:03 <esolangs> [[Here's Some Predefined Stuff. Now Go Invent Everything Else]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179016&oldid=179015 * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * (+18) categories gone wrong
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05:10:17 <esolangs> [[Minus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179017&oldid=99659 * Tpaefawzen * (-38) /* External resources */ url updated
05:22:26 <esolangs> [[Minus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179018&oldid=179017 * Tpaefawzen * (+475) Two levels of specs
05:32:36 <esolangs> [[Minus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179019&oldid=179018 * Tpaefawzen * (+29) /* Extensions */ +1
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06:03:24 <ais523> much the same as yesterday I think
06:07:15 <esolangs> [[The Second Coming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179020&oldid=178579 * PrySigneToFry * (+88)
06:10:54 <Yayimhere> me myself am fine, just a little sleepy
06:24:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RedboiVR * New user account
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07:34:02 <esolangs> [[+!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179021&oldid=147002 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-2) remove extra newlines at the start of the page
07:34:11 <esolangs> [[+!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179022&oldid=179021 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-1)
07:42:08 <esolangs> [[Minus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179023&oldid=179019 * Tpaefawzen * (+167) /* Basics */
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09:21:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179024&oldid=178890 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+155) /* Negative indexed cells? */
09:23:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179025&oldid=179024 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1) /* Negative indexed cells? */
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09:44:56 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179026&oldid=179012 * Cleverxia * (+1575) /* math */
09:46:32 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179027&oldid=179026 * Cleverxia * (+128) /* math.googology */
09:54:03 <esolangs> [[Mathlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179028&oldid=178975 * Cleverxia * (+215) /* Commands */ fix a lot of bugs to interpret it, the most important being mixing postfix and infix
09:56:31 <esolangs> [[Mathlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179029&oldid=179028 * Cleverxia * (+121) /* Examples */
10:21:48 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179030&oldid=176275 * None1 * (-523) Change spec of whole language, the older one cease to exist
10:23:54 <esolangs> [[Functionable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179031&oldid=178868 * PKMN Trainer * (+3) /* Hello World */
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12:40:26 <esolangs> [[Codesh ()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179032&oldid=178951 * StavWasPlayZ * (+2481)
12:41:24 <esolangs> [[Codesh ()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179033&oldid=179032 * StavWasPlayZ * (+1)
12:42:14 <esolangs> [[Codesh ()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179034&oldid=179033 * StavWasPlayZ * (+0)
12:44:35 <esolangs> [[Codesh ()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179035&oldid=179034 * StavWasPlayZ * (-134)
12:45:00 <esolangs> [[Codesh ()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179036&oldid=179035 * StavWasPlayZ * (-52)
12:48:56 <esolangs> [[Codesh ()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179037&oldid=179036 * StavWasPlayZ * (+109)
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13:13:20 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179038&oldid=179030 * None1 * (+310)
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13:57:40 <int-e> b_jonas: Oh the riscv PR got merged without further ado. Yay.
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14:18:00 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, but we have to wait until it propagates from the source into the downloadable documents
14:30:35 <b_jonas> this reminds me of https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=21383 , though that turned out to be a bug in the tool used for format conversion (texinfo)
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15:54:27 <esolangs> [[Cattaratus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=179039 * RixTheTyrunt * (+2315) Created page with "{{Lowercase}}{{WIP}}{{Stub}} {{infobox proglang | name=cattaratus | author=[[User:RixTheTyrunt]] | year=[[:Category:2026|2026]] | class=Unknown | dimensions=[[:Category:Two-dimensional languages|Two-dimensional]] }} '''cattaratus''' is a two dimensional esoteric
16:13:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179040&oldid=179025 * Aadenboy * (+357)
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16:55:12 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179041&oldid=179040 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+53) /* Negative indexed cells? */
16:58:07 <esolangs> [[Codesh ()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179042&oldid=179037 * StavWasPlayZ * (+222)
17:00:38 <esolangs> [[Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179043&oldid=179011 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+118) I did a rewrite to make the memory space a little more intuitive/easy to understand, feel free to correct any mistakes. Note that I "flipped" the tape, since it makes sense because the positive indexed cells cant be indexed
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17:06:12 <esolangs> [[Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179044&oldid=179043 * Aadenboy * (-13) flipping these
17:07:45 <esolangs> [[Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179045&oldid=179044 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+33) /* Memory */
17:08:23 <esolangs> [[Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179046&oldid=179045 * Aadenboy * (+11) 0 indexed
17:09:00 <esolangs> [[Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179047&oldid=179046 * Aadenboy * (-1) forgot this
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17:21:12 <esolangs> [[Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179048&oldid=179047 * Aadenboy * (-258) /* A+B Problem */ redid the program
17:21:32 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179049&oldid=178840 * Aadenboy * (+405) /* Mhm! */ update this
17:22:18 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179050&oldid=178838 * Aadenboy * (-105) update Mhm! program
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17:46:58 <Yayimhere> (me myself am good, the creative juices are flowing well)
17:48:35 <korvo> Yet another respected computer scientist has lost their mind to a chatbot: https://lobste.rs/s/063ldo/why_lean
17:49:05 <Yayimhere> lost their mind in what sense of the expression
17:50:44 <korvo> In terms of Hofstadter minds, I mean that they partially exported their cognition to the chatbot. The chatbot isn't a deterministic tool or reliable physical artifact, so the export is never complete; the resulting mind can't perceive that a huge bite has been taken out of it.
17:51:35 <korvo> Think of a glove. When you put on the glove, for a few minutes, everything feels strange to your fingers. But eventually you adapt and you can treat the glove as if it were your actual hand, because the signals transmitted to your brain are now glove-encoded instead of bare-hand-encoded.
17:51:57 <korvo> And then when you take it off, your brain adjusts again. We've done experiments replicating this effect for vision, hearing, and a few other senses.
17:53:12 <korvo> Anyway, this guy's one of the authors of Lean. I think Lean sucks, but that's just my personal opinion. Here, he says a lot of wrong and misleading things about Lean in order to promote it. That seems normal for a marketer or intern, but he's a senior researcher and one of the original authors!
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17:53:57 <Yayimhere> ive never heard of lean myself, but I dont suspect it being worth the time to look into
17:54:34 <korvo> You should definitely take a look so that you can recognize its syntax. However, if you actually want to *use* it, I would politely suggest that you try Idris 2 instead; Idris is a much simpler language with roughly the same quality of tooling.
17:55:12 <Yayimhere> and what did you think of my... clarification? rewrite? who knows
17:55:33 <aadenboy> I'm good! and your clarification was helpful
17:55:39 <aadenboy> def good choice to flip the tape around
17:56:00 <Yayimhere> though perhaps the choice of symbols will be a little strange now
17:56:22 <Yayimhere> also, I assume unusable cells cannot be nested into
17:56:33 <aadenboy> I flipped the commands around so they make sense too
17:57:13 <Yayimhere> (right now im trying to look into Stratego/XT, which is taking a bit of time cuz im getting distracted)
17:58:28 <Yayimhere> a software transformations language thing
17:58:43 <Yayimhere> I found out it existed while trying to find a GPL that is based on string rewriting
18:00:45 <Yayimhere> anyways, I was interested in your idea of memory either being recursive, or unusable
18:00:50 <korvo> What does "based on" mean? Like, I could say Python is a string-rewriter, in the sense that there are extremely tortured rules with transitions like `(lambda x: x + 1)(5)` -> `6`.
18:01:20 <korvo> Most of the languages that you're going to find which *only* do string-rewriting are therefore going to be *meta* languages; they're languages for describing compilers, linters, type-checkers, etc.
18:01:24 <int-e> korvo: That first paragraph makes me cringe. And it leads *nowhere* (unless you vibe with vibes I guess. I don't.)
18:01:43 <esolangs> [[Adj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179051&oldid=178852 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+26) Amended an instance of cacography and supplemented the page category tag Implemented.
18:01:56 <Yayimhere> korvo: mainly focused around? the main paradigm? the thing it was designed to do? something around there
18:02:05 <Yayimhere> but yea, it does all seem like metalanguages in what I found
18:02:12 <int-e> I mean: rando I've never heard of had a "wow" reaction to an incoherent list of bullet points with no discernable connection between them. Color me impressed.
18:02:36 <int-e> (I /can/ fill in a connection. But the text doesn't provide one.)
18:02:53 <korvo> int-e: The absolute numbers make it worse. Opening Mathlib at the REPL takes like 3GiB of RAM and several minutes wait. Verifying all of Mathlib at the REPL supposedly takes *hours*. The "Lean implemented in Lean" compiler relies on 8KLoC of unproven C++ kernel.
18:03:33 <int-e> I'm glad we're not using dead languages.
18:03:43 <korvo> Yeah, nothing obscure there.
18:03:53 <Yayimhere> "Lean"ing on nothing you could say? /j
18:04:49 <int-e> korvo: Note that if I wasn't somewhat sympathetic to the cause I would not read any of the later stuff anyway.
18:05:03 <korvo> Yayimhere: Sure. So, the big reason that tree rewriting became more popular is that strings have no abstractive horizon. Like, imagine doing natural numbers with pure string rewriting. You could count in unary but that's inefficient. You could use binary but that would require extra rules for every operation to specify rules like carrying during addition.
18:05:58 <Yayimhere> korvo: yea. its not that surprising, really(and I'd assume strings arent that efficient over other data structures, both for manipulating and storing data)
18:06:04 <korvo> int-e: I'm not wholly disconnected from it either. I'm thinking about contributing a little to rpylean, an alternative kernel in RPython.
18:07:28 <Yayimhere> also, arent matrices kinda just restricted trees(since trees are also just nested arrays, right?)
18:07:47 <Yayimhere> I know this is kinda off topic but, oh well
18:07:51 <korvo> Yayimhere: There's a nice dovetail here. I think that, if you want to *use* a string-rewriting system today, you should use Metamath. If you really want to *invent* a new one then you need a good reason. For example, Zaddy's rationale is that I think I can figure out ACE-matching, which is kind of an open problem.
18:08:28 <Yayimhere> I think I'll start a reading list, actually
18:08:29 <korvo> Matrices are linear transformations! They're not at all trees. We only write them like that for traditional reasons. The higher-dimensional version of a matrix is a tensor.
18:16:04 <korvo> Yayimhere: You're really close to a deep insight, BTW. Like, everything we've been talking about is just pencil-and-paper, yeah? You could just draw trees on paper, or use matrix notation on paper, or write out strings on paper.
18:16:44 <korvo> Turing proved that we can only recognize finitely many distinct symbols on a finite piece of paper. Every piece of paper *is* a finite string.
18:16:53 <korvo> So *all* computation, from the beginning, was string rewriting.
18:17:34 <Yayimhere> huh. well then, maybe I should go look at a peice of paper a little more
18:17:50 <korvo> Also, how do you draw a tree? Well, you draw some symbols for nodes and some symbols for arrows, and you have to arrange the arrows with whitespace so that they point to the right nodes. So your string has a *dimensionality* to it, constraining how you can associate symbols to each other.
18:22:31 <ais523> korvo: fwiw I think the "correct" way to do integers in a string-rewriting language is for the program to see them as unary and the implementation to optimise them
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18:31:00 <korvo> ais523: Yeah, perhaps. Another decent approach is to only allow schematic rewriting: every rewriting rule is an axiom schema rather than a single concrete axiom. So `Sx + y` -> `S(x + y)` holds for all syntactic x and y. Metamath requires type annotations to make this work in practice.
18:31:33 <korvo> "type" is maybe the wrong word for a syntax class, but it's the one we've got.
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19:35:27 <b_jonas> ais523: it depends on what you want. if you want to use the esolang to run programs and especially readable programs then that makes sense. but if you want to prove that the language itself is capable of better performance then you might implement the numbers in binary (or some higher radix) in the string language. you can still have an optional optimized version in the emulator even in that case
19:35:33 <b_jonas> (optional because sometimes you want to turn the optimization on to test that your in-language implementation works correctly).
19:35:55 <ais523> I admit I'm something of a believer in the "sufficiently smart compiler" point of view
19:36:11 <ais523> especially when it comes to esolangs, which frequently can manage an O(n) speedup with some fairly simple optimisations
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19:42:31 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, I was mostly thinking not of a smart compiler, but a library that implements arithmetic, with two implementations, one in the esolang and one in the emulator that uses the non-esoteric host's arithmetic capabilities
19:43:16 <ais523> arithmetic in INTERCAL generally requires a loop, and INTERCAL is very hard to optimise across statements due to things like computed COME FROM
19:43:46 <ais523> so in practice having hardcoded arithmetic subroutines gives you a lot of efficiency over trying to optimise ones written directly in iNTERCAL
19:43:49 <b_jonas> obviously this only applies to some esolangs
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20:07:42 <esolangs> [[Danicb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179052&oldid=139524 * Squidmanescape * (+36) I really should implement this.
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