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00:37:35 <lament> What was the rewriting language where rules could be rewritten?
00:38:15 <Taaus> Um... Can you be more specific?
00:38:30 <lament> do you know any languages like that? :)
00:38:50 <lament> the same basic idea as thue
00:40:08 <lament> it was kinda weird and complicated, though.
00:40:23 <Taaus> Hmm... I think Chris Pressey did a 2d rewriting language...
00:40:32 <Taaus> Of course, catseye seems to be down at the moment.
00:43:46 <lament> I remember not liking that language, though
00:44:15 <Taaus> It wasn't as nifty.
00:45:00 <lament> but the _idea_ of rules rewriting rules is nifty.
00:45:01 <Taaus> I stumbled across a 3d version of a Thue-ish language... A Japanese program... Someone had implemented space invaders in it :)
00:46:04 <Taaus> I also found a paper that mentioned a 2d version. I would have preferred that one, but it wasn't available anywhere.
00:47:09 <Taaus> Why don't you design a rule-rewriting Thueoid? :)
00:48:05 <lament> I'm not sure how to design one.
00:48:13 <lament> A 2d thue would'nt be hard to do
00:48:29 <lament> I assume substitutions preserve the size?
00:48:44 <Taaus> Yes. They did in the Japanese program.
00:48:54 <lament> that spoils some of the fun
00:49:01 <lament> also i'm not sure how it would do IO
00:49:22 <Taaus> I seem to recall there being more than just the analog of the Thue ::= mapping.
00:50:02 <Taaus> I think it may have had AND gates, or some similar concept... Rewritings that depended on more than one pattern being present.
00:50:40 <Taaus> This is just my hazy recollection, though.
00:51:07 <lament> A self-modifying thue without the 2d evilness would be neat, though
00:54:27 <Taaus> http://www.yuasa.kuis.kyoto-u.ac.jp/ylab/yamakaku/Dms96/dms96.html
00:56:26 * Taaus wanders off to watch The West Wing.
01:00:56 <lament> 2d thue is too much like cellular automata.
01:01:06 <lament> and therefore not very exciting!
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04:28:16 <dbc> I thought the Thue example programs were a mess. Increment should be something like:
04:28:43 <dbc> and decrement should be something like:
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17:48:17 <lament> I wrote a visual thue interpreter at home.
17:48:26 <lament> It highlights the substitutions.
17:48:47 <lament> But I don't have internet, so I can't show it to anyone! You'll just have to trust me! Mwahaha.
18:59:30 <lament> hm, how do you write quines
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22:22:00 <lament> i'm writing a thue interpreter in Javascript
22:28:17 <Taaus> Oh, not so much joy, then.
00:10:12 <lament> i just need to prettify it a bit now
00:19:46 <lament> ok, so it doesn't _really_ work
00:42:58 <Taaus> Well, I _almost_ believed you... :x
00:47:36 <lament> ok, it appears to work
00:47:45 <lament> how do i set fixed-width font in html?
00:50:42 <lament> no, that's a bit different
00:54:28 <lament> neither works with <div> :(
01:07:27 <lament> Hm, fixed font is not enough anyway. Looks like i need <pre> after all.
01:11:18 <Taaus> I'll take your word for it.
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20:53:46 <Taaus> Heya lament. How goes the Thue interpreter?
20:54:41 <lament> http://cyberspace.org/~lament/thue.html
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20:56:03 <lament> it's a bit ugly control-wise
20:56:15 <lament> in particular the "animate" button doesn't work :)
20:58:11 <lament> The text on the buttons doesn't correspond to their function at all!
20:58:20 <lament> I should just leave the buttons blank to avoid confusion.
21:09:59 <lament> Now I will finally get the worship I deserve.
21:20:40 <lament> Note that arbitrary html code is allowed
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23:44:29 <lament> (while clog was away, somebody came and told us the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything, but this sentence is too small to contain it)
23:50:15 <lament> hm, clog doesn't notify of its own splits
23:50:40 <lament> leading to highly useful logs like http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/03.08.02
23:51:47 <lament> although perhaps that particular log doesn't have anything to do with clog :(
00:18:27 <Taaus> Day changed to 03 Aug 2003
00:18:27 <Taaus> Day changed to 04 Aug 2003
00:18:31 <Taaus> Bugger all happened that day.
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18:37:11 <lament> Rule 90 cellular automaton is scary
18:39:33 <lament> also, I can't find anything about this property on the net
18:41:33 <lament> wolfram doesn't seem to mention it
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18:53:55 <lament> Taaus: do you know anything about that property?
19:12:02 <lament> there was a thue page on catseye
19:12:10 <lament> of course, there is no catseye anymoer!
19:22:35 <lament> (Rule 90 automaton, random initial state)
19:22:45 <lament> Look closely at the first and the last step.
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18:48:05 <lament> Taaus: what exactly is an 'invention'?
20:12:51 <Taaus> Well, do you know what a fugue is?
20:20:18 <Taaus> Okay, well, an invention is similar to a fugue, except that the Comes theme is in the same key as the Dux theme... Does that make any sense? :)
21:17:07 <lament> yes. What a stupid distinction.
21:28:31 <lament> The two-part invention #13 starts with two voices.
21:28:40 <lament> If we're into hair-splitting, that doesn't look at all like a fugue to me.
21:29:26 <Taaus> Umm... Maybe that's because it's an invention?
21:30:56 <lament> if, like you said, the only difference is that the second theme is in the same key, then it's not an invention, either
21:31:55 <Taaus> Heh.. So you're claiming that none of Bach's fugues start with two voices?
21:33:48 <lament> I'm not claiming that.
21:34:00 <lament> I'm claiming that they shouldn't.
21:34:38 <lament> don't fugues absolutely have to begin with one voice?
21:35:11 <Taaus> No. The vast majority does, though.
21:38:55 <lament> Yes _all_ fugues have the second theme in the dominant?
21:39:06 <lament> that doesn't sound right :)
21:39:20 <Taaus> You're right... The 'Yes' sounds out of place in that sentence.
21:42:25 <lament> And it _still_ doesn't sound right :)
21:43:14 <Taaus> I'm pretty sure all fugues have the comes theme initially appearing in the dominant.
21:46:16 <Taaus> If not, there would be no way of distinguishing fugues and inventions ;)
21:46:29 <Taaus> (As an example, that is)
21:46:41 <lament> I don't think so (about the dominant)
21:46:56 * Taaus decides _not_ to mention the Sinphonias.
21:46:56 <lament> http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~tas3/fugueanatomy.html
21:48:26 <Taaus> Gimme examples, not webpages :)
21:49:24 <lament> I'll just assume that guy knows what he's talking about
21:49:28 <lament> mostly because he agrees with me
21:49:42 <lament> also because his animated WTC is awesome
21:49:51 <Taaus> *phew* That means I won't have to change my view of you... :X
21:50:08 <lament> well, it _is_ awesome.
21:50:33 <lament> do you know anything about cellular automaton 90?
21:50:56 <Taaus> Nope... Do you reckon there may be something about it in NKS?
21:51:24 <Taaus> Well, I'll go check.
21:51:32 <lament> See, rule 90 has an extremely awesome property of reversing the state
21:51:51 <lament> But I didn't find anything about this on Wolfram's site.
21:52:50 <lament> Perhaps Wolfram never found it becasue he's dealing with 'real' automata with unbounded states
21:52:58 <Taaus> Urgh... NLS... Painfully... Heavy...
21:53:17 <lament> All I know about it is from the /. review.
21:53:18 <Taaus> Not really. He's quite full of himself.
21:53:57 <Taaus> lol... Rule 90 has tons of references in the index.
21:54:15 <asdsa> i dont under what going on under this channel
21:54:24 <asdsa> i dont understand what going on under this channel
21:54:26 <asdsa> it's why i like it
21:58:30 <lament> Taaus: page 260, i guess
22:01:11 <lament> interesting. The most interesting CA are 30,60,90,110,150.
22:01:33 <lament> all divisible by ten, all but one divisible by 30
22:07:23 <Taaus> I can't find anything about Rule 90 producing reversed patterns...
22:08:37 <Taaus> Especially not on page 260.
22:09:10 <Taaus> Heh... It just dawned on me that I have the New Grove Dictionary of Music... Maybe I should look up fugue and invention there :)
22:21:16 <lament> Fugue, n: see Invention
22:23:37 <lament> Somebody on the esolang can't find anything about Thue.
22:24:34 <Taaus> I noticed. I wonder what's happened to Catseye.
22:27:58 * lament posts on comp.theory.cell-automata about rule 90
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18:51:23 <lament> I'm reading cryptonomicon!
18:51:30 <lament> One of the main characters plays Bach.
18:52:52 <Taaus> I ordered a bunch of Scheme books a couple of days ago. Little Schemer, Seasoned Schemer and SICP.
18:55:00 <Taaus> Will I understand them? Buggered if I know...
18:55:31 <lament> You don't have to buy SICP to find out whether you can understand it.
18:55:58 <lament> There's an exact copy on the internet.
18:56:29 <lament> (is 1 an exact copy of 1?)
18:56:53 <Taaus> But I really don't like reading books on my computer. I prefer dead-tree versions :)
18:56:59 <Taaus> There is only one one.
18:57:10 <lament> there're two just in that sentence alone.
18:58:55 <Taaus> Not sticking with the regular haiku-form, then?
18:59:06 <lament> The first line has five syllables.
18:59:14 <lament> The second has seven, the third again five.
18:59:21 <lament> And the poem has three lines.
18:59:44 <Taaus> Uh? Pray tell how does Seven give you two more syllables than Five?
19:00:03 <lament> But the second line does have seven syllables.
19:00:13 <lament> in fact it _is_ seven syllables.
19:00:20 <Taaus> No... It has "Seven syllables"... It doesn't have seven syllables.
19:00:27 <Taaus> There's a reason we use quotes...
19:00:46 <Taaus> Are you sure you haven't read GEB? :P
19:00:55 <lament> I will have to unquote them, then.
19:01:30 <lament> No, I haven't read GEB.
19:02:05 <Taaus> Start again, heathen.
19:02:10 <lament> I don't really like it.
19:02:32 <lament> I would like it a lot had I read it a year ago.
19:02:41 <Taaus> It grows on you. Like fungus.
19:10:25 <Taaus> Fungus can be black and white.
19:11:50 <lament> Not the kind that grows on me.
19:12:38 <Taaus> I'm slowly moving into hardware esotericity.
19:14:02 <lament> playing with it requires so much stuff i have 0 experience with.
19:14:31 <Taaus> Soldering irons aren't that bad... You quickly figure out what _not_ to do.
19:16:00 <Taaus> Hmm... Interesting idea.
19:16:25 <Taaus> I was planning on doing something along the lines of a mixture (read: bastard child) of Forth and Scheme.
19:16:35 <lament> sounds like something i heard of.
19:16:47 <Taaus> It's probably been done before, yeah.
19:17:16 <Taaus> http://www.hh.se/stud/d99tibr/chatboard.jpg <--- First I'll try to get one of these working with my GP32, though :)
19:29:59 <lament> On one hand, hardware is certainly cool.
19:30:59 <lament> On the other, why bother, when everything can be done in software with much less trouble and a greater potential user/worshipper base?
19:32:31 <Taaus> Well.. That Chatboard mod has a useful application... The GP32 only has an 8-way directional pad and six buttons.. It's hell to use a text editor on it.
19:33:27 <Taaus> Say... pyn is back now... Why are you on the freenode channel? ;)
19:34:14 <Taaus> Yes. exarkun is back too :)
19:34:48 * Taaus wanders off to eat dinner.
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19:54:44 <lament> 48d6215903dff56238e52e8891380c8f
19:54:52 <lament> This string is an md5 of itself
19:56:23 <lament> sorry that doesn't work :(
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22:28:17 <lament> i proved the [l.count(x) == l[x] for x in range(len(l))] thing
22:28:38 <lament> Unfortunately this channel is too small for me to write it down.
22:34:21 <lament> I proved that there's only one solution for len(l) > 7
22:34:54 <Taaus> For every function?
22:35:20 <Taaus> That's wild, man.. I'd expect it to be for every len(l).
22:36:17 <lament> for every N there's only one l such as that len(l) == N and [l.count(x) == l[x] for x in range(N)]
22:38:39 <lament> (THIS is why i haven't written down the proof)
22:39:10 <Taaus> Because you find it difficult to express yourself in precise terms? :P
22:39:41 <lament> Math just isn't woozy enough.
22:43:30 <lament> Mathematicians can only think inside the box!
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20:24:26 <lament> stupid bach! i hate him.
20:28:06 <lament> He's absolutely _impossible_ to play on the guitar.
20:28:27 <Taaus> Well... That really depends on which piece you're trying to play.
20:28:44 <Taaus> I've heard some Bach pieces performed semi-successfully on the guitar ;)
20:29:10 <lament> You'd think the first prelude of the WTC would be easy.
20:29:36 <lament> The first eight measures.
20:29:42 <lament> And then the guitar simply runs out of range.
20:29:55 <Taaus> I wouldn't. It's not. Not even on the piano... It's hell getting it to sound just right :)
20:30:05 <Taaus> Well... Transpose it, then ;)
20:30:28 <lament> but then it won't sound 'just right' whatever i do afterwards :)
20:30:40 <lament> Of course it's not easy.
20:30:45 <lament> Even Gould manages to get it horribly wrong ;)
20:30:50 <Taaus> Hah! Now I'm receiving spam advertising tools to use during a blackout.
20:31:59 <lament> A crowbar, a smoke grenade and a face mask?
20:32:16 <Taaus> Nah... A flashlight of some sort.
20:32:40 <lament> that's not very profitable.
20:37:20 <lament> Of course, i won't run out of range on the Chaconne...
20:37:40 <lament> I'd run out of lots of other things, though :)
20:47:14 <lament> And I hate the guitar anyway :(
20:47:39 <Taaus> Well... Playsomething else, then... Say, the violin :)
20:48:38 <lament> I played the violin in the music school.
20:49:21 <lament> Ugly, wretched, horrible, loathsome.
20:49:31 <lament> Perl programmers play it.
20:49:53 <Taaus> Indubitably. And Python programmers as well.
20:50:07 <lament> At best, it sounds like a chainsaw being lowered into a toilet.
20:50:48 <lament> At worst, like a thousand monkeys freezing to death mid-scream
20:50:53 <lament> (image copyright john clute)
20:54:27 <lament> As you see, it's capable of expressing a very wide range of feelings :)
20:58:06 <lament> By the way, john clute rocks.
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01:02:33 <lament> Verbed: you're in many channels.
01:06:25 <Verbed> I suspect I would miss many interesting conversations if I weren't.
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21:24:38 <lament> http://www.jsbach.net/images/warp.html
21:27:25 <Taaus> Great... I made Bach look like Walter Matthau.
21:28:00 <lament> I've seen an applet that did that to Bill Gates
21:28:19 <lament> but that was on an anti-microsoft site, not a gates fansite
21:29:02 <Taaus> Maybe this just goes to show that jsbach.org is anti-bach!
21:29:57 <lament> wow: http://www.jsbach.net/images/Jordan6StringViolin.html
21:33:27 <Taaus> Oooh. Electric violins.
21:33:38 <lament> Six stringed electric violins.
21:34:22 <lament> I wonder how is it played.
21:34:32 <Taaus> Like a regular violin.
21:34:50 <lament> It doesn't have a bow.
21:35:04 <Taaus> Duuuh, then you provide the bow yourself.
21:35:07 <lament> You can't play with a bow on six strings.
21:35:15 <lament> The board is flat anyway.
21:35:34 <Taaus> It isn't. It curves slightly.
21:35:50 <Taaus> It was enough when Bach lived.
21:36:56 <lament> Maybe it was enough when Bach lived.
21:37:03 <lament> But certainly not for _six_ strings.
21:37:36 <Taaus> And you base this on... What?
21:38:13 <Taaus> That's interesting... Because my experience tells me it would be enough.
21:39:24 <lament> How come all (that I know of) bowed instruments have four, or less than four, strings?
21:40:01 <Taaus> Dunno... Possibly you don't know a lot of bowed string instruments?
21:41:23 <Taaus> Here's a hint. Go look up information on an instrument called 'viola da gamba'
21:42:04 <Taaus> Oh, look... First link on google shows a six-string viola da gamba...
21:42:39 <lament> http://www.violadagamba.nl/pix/kampic.gif
21:43:10 <lament> Nothing like that curve on the electric violin.
21:43:21 <Taaus> Irrelevant... You claimed there were very few string instruments with more than four strings.
21:44:10 <lament> I'm not even going to inquire why the da gamba effectively died out
21:44:37 <Taaus> But anyway you don't have an argument, so you'll try your best to move the conversation elsewhere.
21:44:51 <Taaus> Doesn't it depress you to be wrong all the time?
21:44:56 <lament> We weren't talking about da gambas.
21:45:06 <lament> We were talking about that six-stringed violin.
21:45:44 <Taaus> Ah, so your 'nonexistance of >4-stringed instruments' argument was a straw man.
21:46:16 <lament> and i didn't agrue nonexistance. Just ignorance.
21:46:28 <Taaus> Well, in that case, I won't bother talking with you...
21:46:34 <lament> "It's pitch black, you're likely to be eaten by agrue."
21:48:32 <lament> In fact we were both quite wrong.
21:48:59 <lament> The violin is played with a bow, and the bridge is very curved.
21:54:10 <lament> http://www.barberatransducers.com/hybrid_violin.jpg
21:55:08 <lament> ah, here's 6. http://www.barberatransducers.com/standard_violin.jpg
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03:54:22 <Verbed> I missed an interesting conversation.
03:54:34 <Verbed> Vibraphones can be bowed.
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06:30:14 <lament> Verbed: Yes, and there's also the nail violin...
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03:49:52 <lament> Playing the first prelude on the guitar is possible, after all.
03:50:22 <lament> A few notes had to be changed, and almost the whole thing transposed an octave or two up.
03:50:50 <lament> It does sound crappy, but at least I can use it as accompanement for Ave Maria.
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12:40:14 <dbc> About four cups packed fresh basil leaves.
12:40:18 <dbc> About one cup olive oil.
12:40:23 <dbc> About one cup smashed pine nuts.
12:40:39 <dbc> About one cup Parmigiano.
12:40:54 <dbc> At least four big smashed garlic cloves.
12:41:01 <dbc> About one teaspoon salt.
12:41:09 <dbc> Blend thoroughly.
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18:28:28 <lament> This Choon language seems to be very cool.
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01:51:23 <lament> i am back from hellish canoe trip!
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20:58:47 <lament> i'm writing a fugue (3 voices) for my hand drum.
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