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11:11:52 <Taaus> I think there should be a BF team for the next ICFP contest.
11:13:26 <lament> wouldn't that be insulting
11:13:27 <Taaus> I wonder if it's legal to submit a program that only theoretically works (As in the runtime is too great to actually find out)
11:13:40 <lament> bf is not exactly functional.
11:13:58 <Taaus> It doesn't have to be.
11:16:20 <Taaus> This programming contest is being conducted by ICFP, which implies a desire to promote functional languages. However, rather than debate the definition of a "functional programming language," we will allow submitted programs to be written in any language whatsoever. Mixing languages is entirely acceptable; perhaps you will write in O'Caml and Haskell, with a Tcl script to do the gluing.
11:16:42 <Taaus> That's from this year's contest, anyway... It may have been different earlier.
11:17:05 <lament> "This year you will run your entry on your own computer"
11:17:12 <lament> which probably means they want results :(
11:17:38 <Taaus> But it's a moot point, anyway... We're a couple of days too late ;)
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15:22:25 <Taaus> Well, FP is... Functional Programming, I think. :P
15:23:10 <Taaus> IC is International Conference. Ah.
15:26:09 <andreou> i think i want to kill this bot.
15:27:26 <Taaus> Well... I'm not stopping you :P
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09:54:22 <Taaus> ... You could try... :)
09:54:36 <andreou> and you could be assimilated in the end.
09:55:34 <Taaus> Yes, well... At least I'll have had fun fighting the power.
09:56:04 <andreou> maybe, and the swat will have fun swatting your head ;p .
09:56:10 <andreou> of course, there is an alternative:
09:56:26 <andreou> *bang* *bang* revolutionary dead
09:56:38 <Taaus> The people are too irresponsible to be allowed such power.
09:57:09 <andreou> the people are irresponsible because they have not being assigned some responsibility (which comes with power).
09:57:21 <Taaus> I sense circular logic.
09:58:12 <andreou> logick this: do you prefer to have power-less people under the boot of a fascist government, with no power to express their own mind? (yeah i'm a stinkin' verbalist)
09:58:36 <Taaus> I honestly don't care either way. :)
09:58:40 <andreou> or do you prefer giving the people the power to prove that they really don't need the hierarchical structure supporting and supported by...
09:59:01 <Taaus> I'm a musician. Is that close enough?
09:59:25 <Taaus> Hmm... I have long hair. Does that count?
09:59:27 <andreou> (30 days, 10 minutes uptime... yey)
09:59:37 <andreou> women have long hair too. some of them were on the gestapo.
09:59:57 <Taaus> When did I tell you I wasn't a woman?
10:00:16 <Taaus> Well, no... But it'd be fun if I were.
10:00:30 <Taaus> I only shave when I can't avoid it. I really hate shaving.
10:01:14 <andreou> do me a favour; tell me what the hell is the file in ftp://BitRot.ee.teiath.gr/pub/incoming/
10:02:03 <Taaus> Phoe-, uh, Mozilla Firebird claims /pub/incoming doesn't exist.
10:02:46 <andreou> ftp://BitRot.ee.teiath.gr/incoming/
10:03:13 <Taaus> Well, whatever it is, it won't let me have a look at it.
10:03:55 <andreou> erm i'll have to fix the ftpd umask. try again.
10:06:57 <Taaus> Okay. Hmm... I have absolutely no clue as to what kind of file that is.
10:08:41 <Taaus> Well, where did you get it?
10:09:08 <andreou> the weird thing is that the anon ftp is open for 3-4 days know, unpublished.
10:09:28 <Taaus> Oooh... It's probably military secrets, then... Which probably means I have five minutes before the pigs get here and sieze all my equipment ;)
10:09:45 <andreou> given that the same thing had occured about last year when I also had ftpd open, somebody's scanning for writable ftpds.
10:09:56 <andreou> they are not pigs, they are our friends and cater to our national security.
10:10:07 <andreou> (did they stop /SNOOPing?)
10:10:30 <Taaus> *cough* e-c-h-e-l-o-n *cough*
10:11:10 <Taaus> ARGH, no! Now you've said it!
10:11:23 <Taaus> Now they'll find this conversation.
10:11:38 <andreou> i kill bush echelon love saddam you pigs die
10:12:36 <andreou> heh in a few hours my first /var/log/monthly.out will be created. i am soooooo happy :) .
10:12:50 <andreou> we'll set them up the bomb.
10:14:58 <andreou> i have to set the toilet up the bomb but someone is locking it.
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13:38:17 <dbc> Just saw the log. Have you still got the file from andreou's ftp? I'm curious now, and I can't download it myself for some reason.
13:39:16 <Taaus> I still have it. Just a sec.
13:44:33 <Taaus> I /msg'd you the link. Did you get it?
13:46:06 <dbc> Got the file. Thanks.
13:46:19 <Taaus> You're welcome. Now figure out what it is :P
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14:46:58 <andreou> power to the people, Taaus.
14:47:23 <Taaus> People to the power.
14:48:03 <andreou> heeh power already has people.
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14:48:22 <Taaus> You'll be happy to learn that one of our best esoterians is working on your mystical file ;)
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13:44:06 <dbc> This is not my beautiful house!
13:44:13 <dbc> This is not my beautiful wife!
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13:44:33 <andreou> of course i am not your wife.
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00:26:49 <andreou> yes, damnation to the people!
00:27:42 <andreou> no my stomach isn't realy nice.. the cannabis pizza got to me.
00:28:08 <andreou> being an evil overl0rd doesn't necessarily mean that you're immune to these little things.
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12:01:28 <andreou> Whatever to the people :) .
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07:26:40 <lament> I wrote 'hello world' in zcode!
07:27:13 <lament> ~/zmachine/mine > hexdump hand.z5
07:27:13 <lament> 0000000 0005 0000 4000 4000 6964 0000 0000 4000
07:27:13 <lament> 0000010 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 1400 0000 0000
07:27:13 <lament> 0000020 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
07:27:13 <lament> 0000030 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 4f57 544f
07:27:29 <lament> 0000040 11b2 46aa 0334 5e94 1629 9c85 baa5 0a00
07:31:48 <lament> Full of quiet confidence!
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00:26:19 <Taaus> Andreou in the hizouse.
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03:00:06 <Taaus> lament: You consider HQ9+ to be a programming language, then?
03:00:32 <lament> Taaus: Also my programming language I sent to the esolang a year ago
03:00:46 <lament> that converted every line of input from <foo> into "Hello, <foo>!"
03:01:05 <lament> I believe nobody objected there :)
03:01:54 <Taaus> How about a language that has the implementation 'int main(void) { return 0;}'? A true NULL language. :)
03:03:43 <lament> Of course, it has no programs.
03:04:03 <lament> I rather like the language with just one instruction, "nop"
03:04:05 <Andreou> programming language is defined as?
03:04:06 <Taaus> Well, that's just dandy... That means pretty much everything is a programming language...
03:04:21 <lament> It's special because it doesn't need an implementation
03:04:22 <Andreou> lament no, if the interpreter takes no input, there can be no programs, not even NOP programs.
03:04:25 <lament> its programs run themselves
03:04:37 <lament> Andreou: yes, i'm talking of a different language.
03:05:11 <lament> Andreou: the best definition of 'programming language' i know of is 'a formal method for definition of a class of machines'
03:05:19 <Taaus> You've successfully made a definition that's useless. Have you considered working on a standards committee?
03:05:24 <lament> where a machine is something that can change state, e.g. operate
03:05:32 <lament> taaus: it is not useless
03:06:16 <lament> Taaus: well, perhaps it is, so give me a better one!
03:06:31 <lament> I'm perfectly content with this one, though
03:08:39 <lament> If you really insist, I can say "non-empty class of machines" instead
03:10:48 <Taaus> Well, I still don't think it's a good definition... It certainly isn't intuitive... The problem is that HTML "programs" are constant, in a sense. They'll always produce the same output when run on a specific interpreter.
03:11:13 <lament> i thought that would be a good thing :)
03:11:29 <lament> Have you looked at _code?
03:11:55 <lament> would you say they're not programming languages?
03:12:02 <lament> they're turing complete.
03:12:06 <lament> they don't have input.
03:12:08 <Taaus> The thing is... _All_ HTML programs are constant. That's not so for Postscript.
03:12:30 <lament> well, it's true for _code, which is turing complete
03:12:41 <Taaus> I'm not familiar with _code. Got a link?
03:12:42 <lament> and it's true for Zot where input is a part of the program
03:12:57 <lament> and for Iota and Jot that don't have input
03:13:29 <lament> sorry, no link for _code
03:14:05 <lament> but here's 99 bottles of beer in it
03:14:09 <lament> [1green bottle][2hanging on the wall.\n][3`#`$# 1$, 2''][4`Q`Z`q`z3(Q)(Z)3(Q
03:14:09 <lament> )(Z)And if one 1 should accidentally fall,\nThere\'d be 3(q)(z)\n''''][6`A`a
03:14:09 <lament> `s`Q`B`b`z4(A)(s)(b)(z)Q(B)(b)(z)'''''''][+(s)(6)]6(Ten)(ten)+(Nine)(nine)+(
03:14:09 <lament> Eight)(eight)+(Seven)(seven)+(Six)(six)+(Five)(five)+(Four)(four)+(Three)(th
03:14:09 <lament> ree)+(Two)(two)+(One)(one)()(`X`Y`Z''')()(no)(s)
03:14:46 <lament> It's a language that was intended to replace geek code
03:14:55 <Taaus> Ah, yes... It's all coming back now.
03:18:09 <Taaus> There must be some way to define the difference between _code and what you might call the "cat" programming language. (I.e. the language that just returns whatever input it's given)
03:18:50 <lament> well, _code is turing-complete.
03:19:24 <lament> but that seems to be irrelevant.
03:19:30 <lament> If you cut HTML does it not bleed?
03:20:59 * Taaus briefly wonders if the inclusion of <BLINK> and <MARQUEE> tags makes a difference
03:24:33 <Taaus> Remind me again why TC isn't a good measure of whether or not a language is a programming language or not.
03:25:08 <lament> Because of the arbitrarily big memory requirement for turing-completeness.
03:25:22 <Taaus> Languages don't have memory requirements...
03:25:37 <Taaus> Then Brainfuck isn't a language.
03:25:50 <Taaus> A programming language, that is.
03:25:55 <Taaus> It's just a glorified markup language, then.
03:26:36 <lament> Even though it's capable of an arbitrarily large subset of turing-complete programs
03:26:54 <lament> (the brainfuck family)
03:27:44 <lament> There're probably other languages that have memory requirements.
03:28:35 <Taaus> Possibly. That doesn't change anything, though.
03:29:20 <lament> anyway, any definition of programming languages which excludes brainfuck is morally wrong.
03:29:57 <Taaus> Not really... Brainfuck with limited memory can't execute all the programs a Turing Machine can.
03:30:09 <Taaus> Brainfuck _without_ limited memory is a programming language. No contest there.
03:31:13 <lament> hm, we could call limited-memory languages "computers" :)
03:32:10 <lament> That would confuse the hell out of everybody.
03:32:35 <Taaus> Well... That's the whole point of existence, innit?
03:33:53 <lament> It can even calculate prime numbers
03:33:56 -!- Taaus has set topic: This just in: HTML solves the halting problem! Millions rejoice!.
03:33:59 <lament> but is not turing complete :(
03:34:23 <lament> And hq9+!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
03:34:35 <Taaus> This reminds me of Floop, Bloop and Gloop from GEB.
03:36:28 <Taaus> He defines three different languages (with the aforementioned names) one of them isn't TC, but it is able to emulate anything one of the other TC languages can do.
03:37:19 <Taaus> I think Bloop has only got constant for-loops, whereas Floop has while-loops. If you put in a large enough constant, then Bloop is nearly as powerful as Floop.
03:37:54 <lament> GEB sounds like something i really have to read, which is why I don't.
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03:43:31 <lament> Perhaps I should read it anyway.
03:43:46 <Taaus> I bet it wouldn't hurt ;)
03:44:42 <lament> I probably know everything it says. Which is bad because I should've just read it instead of all that other stuff!
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03:56:59 <dbc> I'm reading it.
04:02:03 <lament> hehe, I like this /. comment about the complexity of computer jargon
04:02:12 <lament> You're absolutely right. Instead of saying "megahertz," we should say "three billion individual operations every second." Instead of "MP3 file," we should say "pirated Metallica songs." Instead of "Bluetooth," we should say "magic."
04:02:44 <dbc> I want to approach the definition problem another way, to make it match the common usage of the phrase "programming language" better.
04:03:07 <dbc> I want to start out by saying a programming language is a language you can use to tell a computer to do things...
04:04:05 <lament> that's the part where I beat you with a stick.
04:05:29 <dbc> And add a few refinements. Specifically, I would say you can use it to tell a computer to do several different possible things; this rules out null languages and those that always do exactly the same thing. Your language that outputs "Hello, <input>!" is right in the borderline.
04:06:44 <dbc> And also, a strong connotation of "program" is that you can give the computer a reasonably long list of things to do, and after you finish giving it the list it will go ahead and do all of them, rather than you having to tell it things one at a time.
04:07:14 <lament> Any definition which involves "computer" is evil, though.
04:08:03 <lament> Otherwise, your definition is pretty much the same as mine.
04:08:27 <dbc> Okay. I think the answer there is to broaden the definition of "computer", not to stop using it.
04:09:16 <lament> is turing machine a computer?
04:09:41 <dbc> And I wouldn't broaden it too far. Stack machines are fine, but a four-function calculator isn't. Again, I'm trying to match common usage, which doesn't speak of "programming" anything very different from a computer...
04:09:54 <dbc> A Turing machine is a computer, yes.
04:10:26 <dbc> That is, a real Turing machine.
04:10:49 <lament> I think you just reduced the problem to an equally complex related problem.
04:11:07 <lament> Sorta like compiling Brainfuck to Ook.
04:11:10 <dbc> What, defining "computer"?
04:11:54 <dbc> Well, that's to be expected. There isn't going to be a neat mathematical formulation that matches common usage.
04:12:47 <dbc> By common usage, lots of things count as "programming languages" that aren't Turing-complete even if you neglect the unlimitedspace requirement.
04:12:55 <lament> But common usage is evil.
04:13:19 <lament> In common usage, somebody says "HTML is a programming language, i learned it at school", and the response is "FUCK YOU!" *ban*
04:13:23 <dbc> If common usage is evil, then common words are evil. Rather than try to make a fresh definition of the phrase "programming language", just stop using it.
04:14:25 <dbc> Which is indeed a good policy, for lots of words, but I don't have enough aversion to "programming language" to stop using it myself.
04:14:42 <lament> I don't either. But definitions are nice.
04:14:54 <lament> Besides, people actually _argue_ about things like this.
04:15:03 <lament> (without looking for a definition)
04:15:57 <lament> Well, it's not often that people argue about programming languages.
04:16:03 <dbc> ("good" is one word that I keep meaning to stop using for similar reasons, but it's a difficult habit to break.)
04:16:47 <lament> But arguments about scripting languages, OO, etc
04:17:19 <dbc> Right. Plus, is a program that bundles an interpreter with source code a "real" compiler.
04:24:15 <dbc> The way to get precision, if we want it, is to stick with concepts derived from mathematics, and which have not been firmly co-opted for nontechnical uses. That's my view.
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13:50:51 <andreou> We have come to the conclusion that you are a radical anarchist. Our satellites will track you down, our operatives will kill you and we will laugh as you make it into the statistics.
13:51:07 <Taaus> More spam email, eh?
13:51:21 <andreou> you can't believe how much. i can't stand it.
13:51:41 <Taaus> Well, don't get mad, get even.
13:51:43 <andreou> what's more, it's real-time spam. i am logged in to the mail account and i receive spam.
13:52:02 <Taaus> Okay, don't get mad, get odd.
13:52:32 <andreou> i had a friend that read spam. terrible things happened to him.
13:53:13 <andreou> stupid bastard were my words... read spam, who did he think he were, arnold blackanger?
13:53:40 <Taaus> Well... Some people think they can handle it...
13:54:44 <andreou> wait until the spam gene is found and the first bio-weapon engineered. *then* we will have some fun... >:-D
13:55:01 <Taaus> I shudder at the thought.
13:55:43 <andreou> i laugh uncontrollably at the thought.
13:57:30 <andreou> i am not a madman, i am a visionary.
13:58:09 <Taaus> What's that you said? Missionary?
13:59:15 <andreou> I'm an ASS member -- Anti-Spam Sect.
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06:13:44 <lament> ~/zmachine/mine > od -t x1 HELLO.z5
06:13:44 <lament> 0000000 05 5e 0a ff 00 40 00 12 64 69 00 00 00 00 00 40
06:13:44 <lament> 0000020 2a 2a b2 b5 c0 8c 00 22 00 00 00 10 0a 3e 35 35
06:13:44 <lament> 0000040 2b 22 64 6c 72 6f 77 20 69 68 22 3e 3a 23 2c 5f
06:13:44 <lament> 0000060 40 0a 5e 3c 00 00 00 00 b2 72 97 45 25 9c a5 ba
06:13:54 <lament> It's a program that prints 'hi world', followed by a newline
06:13:59 <lament> in both z-machine and befunge
06:14:42 <lament> it can't be any smaller because the z-machine header is 64 bytes, and i have to have at least 64.
06:14:48 <lament> And I don't have any more :)
06:18:06 <lament> http://lament.hypermart.net/HELLO.z5
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19:27:34 <Taaus> lament: Your homepage fall down go boom :/
19:32:55 <Taaus> What was on the page?
19:33:48 <lament> the description of how my z-code program works.
19:36:46 <lament> Hopefully cyberspace.org goes back up.
19:37:15 <lament> It's a nice, evil place.
19:37:52 <Taaus> Really? It wasn't when I looked at it... Of course, that was probably... A year ago, or so.
19:46:25 <lament> it's more evil than nice.
19:48:34 <lament> still, it's a big, active BBS
19:49:05 <lament> And a unix shell at the same time!
19:49:43 <lament> Have you played Scott Adams' adventure games?
19:50:59 <Taaus> Scott Adams? I don't think so, no...
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15:52:36 <asdsa> i read about the log
15:52:47 <asdsa> i already like it !
15:56:52 <asdsa> so the endless question is what is the official esoteric language ?!
15:57:19 <Taaus> But Brainf*** is a strong contender.
15:57:29 <asdsa> from what i read from http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/03.04.19 it's not that easy !
17:27:59 <asdsa> do you really code in brainfuck ?
17:28:11 <Taaus> Not these days, anyway.
17:28:45 <asdsa> do you know anyone really coding in brainfuck
17:29:07 <Taaus> dbc, for instance.
17:29:24 <asdsa> the guy with the fractal ?!
17:29:36 <Taaus> I'm not sure. Probably.
17:29:45 <asdsa> let me find the logs =)
17:29:55 <asdsa> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/03.01.21
17:30:36 <Taaus> Ah, yes. That's him.
17:31:25 <asdsa> i did it in brainfuck ??
17:32:56 <asdsa> it would be insane
17:33:32 <Taaus> I think the triangle fractal was made using a BF program.
17:34:10 <Taaus> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/03.05.20
17:35:00 <asdsa> http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/triangle.bf
17:35:19 <Taaus> Yep. That's the one.
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21:40:09 <andreou> came here to congratulate me on my new lapdog?
21:41:25 <andreou> lament has to be institutionalized :)
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05:08:19 <lament> speaking of esoteric stuff, i wrote a language (called SADISM) which compiles to the Scott Adams adventure game platform.
05:09:41 <lament> the compiler is the ugliest piece of code i ever wrote.
05:10:24 <lament> I shall never write compilers without clearly separating code into lexer/parser/compiler, i swear
05:10:54 <andreou> you are enumerating the rules that you br0ke? :)
05:13:38 <lament> The language has significant whitespace and statements are terminated by a blank line.
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16:48:23 <andreou> good indeed, although it's 18:47.
16:48:34 <andreou> but it was good since i slept through it :)
16:48:49 <andreou> the telephone bill will come a *slight* bit 'upgraded', but what the heck...
16:59:11 <Taaus> It's the price you have to pay for being esoteric ;)
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03:01:14 <lament> clog: where do you keep prettified logs?
03:03:04 <lament> andreou: do you know where they're kept? :(
03:04:18 <andreou> [01:59:39] -ChanServ- [#esoteric] Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Logs of previous discussion are avialable at http://www.tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/
03:04:30 <lament> but those aren't prettified
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03:04:44 <andreou> why you say that? ascii is pretty.
03:05:41 <lament> ascii is a horrible waste of bits
03:06:42 <lament> everybody should use puffman encoding
03:08:04 <andreou> [01:59:39] -ChanServ- [#esoteric] Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Logs of previous discussion are avialable at http://www.tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/
03:08:20 <andreou> http://www.ananova.com/entertainment/story/sm_800824.html
03:11:38 <andreou> Hello, ADimitris. Nice to see you see me :-) .
03:13:12 <lament> there should be some nice way to get logs of recent conversation
03:13:44 <lament> and that should NOT include massive quits/joins
03:13:45 <andreou> and !markstart Conversation theme
03:13:52 <andreou> and !markend Conversation theme
03:14:01 <lament> the log directory is full of 1-KB files
03:14:01 <andreou> and !fetchmark conversation theme
03:14:10 <lament> some of those are genuinely empty
03:14:28 <lament> some may hide treasures
03:14:50 <lament> of various degrees of brain-damage
03:15:23 <andreou> it's good to have *this* kind of treasury hidden.
03:15:38 <andreou> maybe we should /part /join a few times to hide them even better...
03:16:10 <lament> and not somewhere in #debian
03:17:54 <lament> we could set the channel +s, so nobody ever finds out about us!!!
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03:20:40 <lament> well, right now there's esoteric conversation going on in #scheme
03:35:01 <lament> "Her bottom was named the sexiest behind in Hollywood in a poll of more than 2,000 film fans earlier this year."
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03:39:03 <hcf> lament: read the top of http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/
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03:41:13 <lament> http://tunes.org/~coreyr/
03:45:20 <lament> i want to write a nice, elegant programming language which compiles to the z-machine
03:45:35 <lament> unfortunately that's impossible.
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23:13:48 <Taaus> Power to the people! Except for the ones responsible for Terminator 3.. God that movie sucked.
23:15:36 <Taaus> Yeah. Just got back, pretty much.
23:16:17 <Taaus> (You're not going all lispy on me, are you?)
23:16:53 <andreou> (schemey,but still the answer is no)
23:17:11 <Taaus> (Well, Scheme is part of the lisp family ;)
23:17:37 <Taaus> I'm trying to port TinyScheme to my GP32. It's fun. :D
23:17:58 <Taaus> GamePark 32. A Korean handheld gaming thingy.
23:18:16 <Taaus> 320x240 screen, ARM9 CPU. Uses SmartMedia cards.
23:19:27 <andreou> i' thinking of writing a forth-like vm for my c55 when i finally get it.
23:19:36 <Taaus> Very. It can be "overclocked" to 133MHz through software alone :)
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03:20:42 <hcf> now try it
03:20:45 <andreou> [03:21:18] * andreou sets mode: +b *!*@bespin.org
03:20:53 * hcf crosses his digits
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03:24:10 <hcf> now try it
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03:26:40 <hcf> ok, all set now
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08:00:37 <lament> WELL, I GUESS THIS DOESN?T REA
08:00:37 <lament> LLY QUALIFY AS ESOTERIC, BUT A
08:00:37 <lament> IT?S A ?-BIT ENCODING.
08:00:37 <lament> UNLIKE BAUDOT AND SIMILAR ENCO
08:00:39 <lament> DINGS, IT ACTUALLY USES ?-BITS
08:00:44 <lament> THE COMPLETE CHARACTER SET INC
08:00:47 <lament> LUDES THE ALPHABET ?UPPERCASE
08:00:49 <lament> ONLY?, THE COMMA, THE PERIOD,
08:00:51 <lament> THE DASH, THE EXCLAMATION MARK
08:00:54 <lament> , THE QUESTION MARK AND THE SP
08:00:59 <lament> THE QUESTION MARK IS ALSO USED
08:01:02 <lament> INSTEAD OF CHARACTERS WHICH C
08:01:04 <lament> OULDN?T BE OTHERWISE CONVERTED
08:01:09 <lament> SURE, IT?S SILLY, BUT IT?S CU
08:02:00 <lament> I WILL TRY A ?-BIT ENCODING NE
08:09:01 <lament> A 4-bit encoding would have the following alphabet:
08:10:03 <lament> or rather, in alphabetical order, "acdeghilnorstuw "
08:10:38 <lament> i guess the w can be replaced with ? to indicate missing characters
08:12:46 <lament> this is ?hat a ?our??it encoding loo?s li?e?
08:13:25 <lament> i guess it?s actuall? so?e?hat reada?le? heh? ?ourteen letters are enough ?or ?ost ?ur?oses??
08:14:01 <lament> as a neat side e??ect? the ?essage loo?s li?e ?loor engra?ings ?ro? nethac? ???
08:15:05 <lament> And of course, instant 2x compression
08:15:09 <lament> two chars in one byte!
08:16:03 <lament> I GUESS IT LOO?S ?ETTER IN ALL U??ERCASE?
08:17:04 <lament> And some people use silliness like Unicode.
08:18:05 <lament> It's like using C# instead of Brainfuck.
08:18:50 <andreou`work> are you taking drugs? the kind of drugs that make one see colors :)
08:19:05 <andreou`work> i mean, if you are everything can be explained :)
08:19:11 <lament> Oh, I thought you were suggesting I shouldn't take people using Unicode personally.
08:19:42 <andreou`work> unicode is ok as long as i don't have to use it.
08:20:03 <lament> I prefer my four-bit encoding.
08:20:18 <andreou`work> wow, i've been two days away and about 60 files have changed in the CVS...
08:21:00 <lament> cvs commit -m "Major changes throughout the project..."
08:21:03 <andreou`work> i am not convenient with this alteration. i will log into the cvsroot server and change them back.
08:21:22 <andreou`work> nah but most coders have the bad habbit of aliasing 'commit' to 'cvs commit -m "fix"'
08:21:46 <andreou`work> they are programmatic source file production simpletons
08:22:00 <lament> Yes! They can be easily replaced by Befunge programs.
08:22:48 <andreou`work> Dear friends, stop this 'fix' and 'empty commit message' madness!
08:22:49 <andreou`work> (The quote is from H. P. Lovecraft; that guy was nearly as destructed
08:22:53 <andreou`work> Have phun. I think the code is much more readable now, but it is entirely
08:22:55 <andreou`work> possible that I missed a closing bracket here or there 8^) .
08:23:05 <andreou`work> and guess what... i had in fact missed a closing bracket somewhere :) .
08:24:26 <andreou`work> i am thinking of educating these poor foul souls. i'll commit with poetic messages
08:24:39 <lament> what project are you working on?
08:25:27 <andreou`work> From revisioin 1.1 until revision 1.686 inclusive the commit message is 'fix'. GOD DAMN.
08:26:42 <andreou`work> the company is a start-up, so everyone does everything they know. they only know how to code, but i also administer the servers.
08:26:54 <andreou`work> it's a fun escape when you've tired of reading malformed source code.
08:29:06 <andreou`work> CS degrees at teiath are given out way too easily
08:29:24 <andreou`work> heh that coffee was strong; i'm being vitriolic :)
08:30:20 <lament> it's interesting how different drugs make you "more awake" in different ways
08:30:39 <andreou`work> unfortunately i haven't had the chance to experiment ;p
08:30:56 <lament> I haven't either, except for coffee, chocolate and weed
08:31:50 <andreou`work> coffee stimulates me, but I wouldn't say it makes me more awake. usually when I am tired and drink coffee I just loose the ability to sleep, not the sleepiness :)
08:33:41 <andreou`work> i wonder why bynari.net compressed the installer of the insightconnector when the compression rate is just 3%
08:34:06 <lament> for security reasons!!
08:43:08 <lament> http://www.wikipedia.org/upload/0/0e/Marahuana_warning.png
08:44:35 <lament> That poster was used in the thirties.
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08:49:05 <lament> I'll go to sleep. Bye all.
08:49:15 <lament> I'm getting a bit paranoid.
08:49:21 <lament> Talking to people who're not really here.
08:49:38 <lament> But yeah, bye all you silly log readers.
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17:27:51 <andreou> Hello people, hello power, hello bot, hello world, hello universe. Die, cleaning lady.
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03:27:08 <Taaus> Power to the peephole!
03:27:23 <andreou> of course, http://www.sysadminday.com
03:27:33 <andreou> power to the sysadmin, to hell with the people.
03:28:36 <andreou> HATE HATE SYSAD@$%!$%!#$!@#$@#NO CARRIER
03:30:26 * Taaus goes back to mutilating TinyScheme
03:32:48 <lament> Redundantly tiny scheme!
03:33:07 <andreou> tinyscheme? isn't this that greek whacko's implementation?
03:33:26 <Taaus> 'Greek whacko'? Isn't that a bit... Pleonasmic?
03:34:37 <Taaus> But to answer your question, 'yes'.
03:34:39 <andreou> no, there are two types of greeks
03:34:58 <andreou> The kafroi (plural of kafros, pronounced kAh-free)
03:35:11 <andreou> and the mourloi (mOO-rleeh)
03:35:23 <Taaus> How about the hoi polloi? :)
03:35:46 <andreou> oi polloi (the many) are of no interest discussing. just simpletons.
03:36:24 <andreou> there is an increasing number of simpletons turning kafroi, tho
03:36:42 * Taaus smiles and nods, smiles and nods
03:37:26 <andreou> you know about greeks, taaus?
03:37:38 <Taaus> Hence my fervent smiling and nodding.
03:38:19 <Taaus> I don't expect other people to know about Danes, either ;)
03:38:50 <andreou> danes are not as interesting as greeks (profound display of lack of knowledge about danes)
03:39:19 <Taaus> Teehee. You're probably right ;)
03:45:25 <andreou> http://sysadminday.safeweb.be/Photos1/pMark_Sewage_P6060002.JPG
03:47:01 <andreou> http://sysadminday.safeweb.be/Photos1/pMaxim_Fire_Rack.jpg
03:47:15 <andreou> anyway have a look at allof them at /Photo1.htm
03:47:25 <Taaus> Those switches really _do_ get hot, you know... ;P
03:48:27 <andreou> i'm hoping one day i'll turn a rack full of cisco hardware into a rack full of cisco meltware.
03:49:34 <Taaus> A worthwhile goal, to be sure.
04:04:37 <andreou> i'm going on vacation in a week and need a good book suggestion. not technical.
04:04:54 <Taaus> Hmm... How about some PKD novels? :)
04:05:12 <Taaus> Or something by Hofstadter.
04:06:58 <andreou> which one b hofstadter? i've (read) GEB:EGB and Fluid Concepts
04:07:12 <andreou> FCACA is not a vacation/relaxation book.
04:07:40 <Taaus> Hmm... Metamagical Themas is good. So is The Mind's I.
04:07:53 <Taaus> (The latter is co-edited with Daniel C. Dennett)
04:08:18 <andreou> any suggestioins for pkd? never read any
04:09:11 <lament> i'm struggling through GEB
04:09:18 <lament> I can't force myself to read it
04:09:31 <Taaus> Hmm... Not sure, really. I thoroughly enjoyed his short stories. There are five books with PKD short stories.
04:14:06 <Taaus> andreou: There's also a single book containing 3 of his early novels. 'The Man Who Japed', 'Dr. Futurity' and 'Vulcan's Hammer'. Especially Dr. Futurity was enjoyable.
04:14:49 <lament> andreou: Just get the cyberiad.
04:15:12 <Taaus> That sounds like Lem. I still need to read some of his stuff :/
04:15:17 <andreou> i'll see how fast i can order.
04:15:55 <lament> cyberiad is the second best book on anything for the layman.
04:17:16 <lament> It's a bunch of fairy tales.
04:21:34 <Taaus> I'm going to bed. Good night, all.
04:23:25 <andreou> "I liken starting one's computing career with Unix, say as an undergraduate, to being born in East Africa. It is intolerably hot, your body is covered with lice and flies, you are malnourished and you suffer from numerous curable diseases. But, as far as young East Africans can tell, this is simply the natural condition and they live within it. By the time they find out differently, it is too late. They already think that the writing of shell scripts is
04:23:46 <Taaus> Heh... Looking at the Unix Hater's Handbook?
04:24:33 <andreou> who only recently started learning and working with unix
04:24:49 <andreou> fortunately he is now solaris installation engineer at the 2004 olympics athens data center ;p
04:25:02 <andreou> he's learning perl and he's happy he watches his knowledge well change
04:25:32 <andreou> well, if i direct him to the UHH he'll start shouting at me ``what kind of the worst lamer has written that piece of trinary shit''
04:25:52 <andreou> in ten years, he'll be cursing solaris, in twenty years he'll be writing the second editioin of UHH
04:26:01 <andreou> isn't exquisite what unix can do to a man?
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04:35:46 <dbc> (cruel world)
04:36:53 <andreou> Taaus you got any pdf versions of uhh?
04:37:16 <Taaus> http://research.microsoft.com/~daniel/uhh-download.html
04:38:04 <andreou> So no, it's not a Microsoft conspiracy. :)
04:38:21 <Taaus> That's what they _claim_.
04:38:34 <dbc> Haven't been working any more on that mystery file; instead I've been shortening dbfi.b because this guy wants to write an article on it.
04:44:14 <dbc> Unix-Gator's Handbook?
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07:09:30 <lament> wow, today's log is big.
07:09:39 <lament> All they yesterday's stuff is on there :)
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09:12:16 <dbc> "One of the benefits of leaving regulation of this matter to the people rather than to the courts is that the people, unlike judges, need not carry things to their logical conclusion."
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12:20:43 <andreou> anyone has halflife/counterstrike serial or keygen?
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15:02:09 <Taaus> Power to the poplar!
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02:09:56 <Taaus> Gravy made out of people!
02:10:20 <andreou> I think we are starting to get a people-power-complex obsession-kind-of-thingie
02:10:34 <Taaus> Is that a bad thing?
02:11:00 <andreou> We are psychopathic products of the system; it is what we are supposed to be(come of).
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01:46:50 <Taaus> Electronic Popple.
01:48:55 <Taaus> Very much so. How are you tonight, andreou? :)
01:49:13 <andreou> good. just woke up after N hours of dreamful sleep.
01:49:38 <Taaus> Ah... I bet you wish it was N+1, eh?
01:51:09 <andreou> at this point, N+2,5 actually.
01:51:33 <andreou> anyway, what better time to read up on tempest than now that the agents are sleeping?
01:52:03 <Taaus> The agents never sleep.
01:52:28 <andreou> The agents *think* that they never sleep.
01:53:23 <andreou> ahem... you're UTC+... how much? 1?
01:53:24 <Taaus> Well... Maybe they do sleep, but if they do it in shifts, it doesn't make any difference to us.
01:56:09 <andreou> i have to tune my baglamas
01:56:31 <andreou> heh: http://molasar.blackmagic.com/french/
01:57:02 <andreou> yeah so chivas regal is actually french? god...
01:57:30 <Taaus> Jerry Springer (talk show)
01:59:44 <andreou> hey, sofitel is the hotel at Athens International Airport
02:04:01 * Taaus wanders off to munch on some French Emmenthaler cheese.
02:04:39 <andreou> it's not French Emmenthaler, it's Freedom Emmenthaler.
02:15:09 <andreou> (prepare for paste of a short bio of a fun guy)
02:15:15 <andreou> (ready or not here it comes)
02:15:18 <andreou> For my personal history, over the years I've competed in and taught nightclub type dancing, surfed professionally and owned a surfboard company, competed in and coached both wrestling and tennis, become a real rocket scientist and a computer nerd, gotten five college degrees, acquired a teaching credential, hob-nobbed with many famous people, written several books (most are technical but one is on surfing and one is on Sombo - a form of martial arts), be
02:16:52 <Taaus> It got cut off after 'martial arts'
02:17:08 <andreou> ), been listed in Who's Who in both Industry and Science, ran for public office, served in office in various large organizations, been in two movies, and never made any big money.
02:17:17 <andreou> yeah, thought i heard a 'beep'-like sound.
02:17:31 <Taaus> lol... Never made any big money.
02:18:01 <andreou> of course, he doesn't say if he made a real lot of small money :) .
02:18:16 <Taaus> True, true. "I have a small fortune in pennies"
02:53:33 <andreou> I really hate waiting for the queue to empty. Doesn't the stinkin' fserv understand that *my* dcc request is more important?
02:54:24 <Taaus> Tell it to the owner. And use lots of foul langauge. I'm sure he'll understand.
03:01:08 <andreou> argh that fserv bot was borken...
03:22:02 <Taaus> What were you trying to obtain?
03:22:26 <andreou> the art of information warfare
03:22:43 <Taaus> Sounds... Like a handbook for spammers :)
03:23:11 <andreou> no, not the art of toxic binary waste handling.
05:31:31 <andreou> it's worth every second i spent downloading it.
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13:33:51 <andreou> Hell, that one rhymed as well!
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18:18:15 <lament> where's everybody again
18:18:28 <Taaus> Dunno. Eating peanuts, probably.
18:18:30 <lament> this channel is hopeless! We should just merge with #scheme
18:18:39 <lament> they're talking more about esoteric stuff than we do :(
18:19:07 <Taaus> andreou and I do our best. ;)
18:19:41 <Taaus> So... Any thoughts on Loell?
18:30:35 <lament> Did I understand correctly that there can only be one prototype?
18:31:37 <lament> It seems a very stupid limitation
18:31:42 <lament> Unless i'm missing something obvious
18:32:48 <Taaus> It's been a while since I looked at it last, but I imagine you could change it (in Loell code) to support more than one prototype.
18:34:09 <lament> Creates a new object, using expr as prototype (stored in the proto property). The current scope is stored in the scope property. If expr is ommited, Any is used. exprs is evaluated in the current scope, but with current set the newly created object.
18:34:25 <lament> So apparently the 'proto' and 'scope' properties are hard-wired
18:35:26 <Taaus> No argument there.
18:36:50 <Taaus> Hmm... If it had something akin to doesNotUnderstand:, then it might be possible.
18:39:47 <lament> The whole idea of first-class scopes is wonderful, though.
18:40:04 <lament> Have you looked at slate?
18:40:10 <lament> Well, I guess python has it too
18:40:28 <Taaus> water talks about it a lot in #squeak ;)
18:41:33 <lament> you can send messages to the "context object"
18:41:41 <lament> I think ^ is such a message
18:42:20 <lament> as are local variables... but i might be wrong
18:42:55 <Taaus> There's a lot of talk on the "Pragmatic Programmers" mailing list these days... A bunch of people are going to try to develop a "pragmatic" language (called Pragmatic. Duh)
18:43:24 <Taaus> I think it'll turn into a big ball of mud... If anything at all.
18:43:27 <lament> I thought C was pragmatic
18:43:33 <lament> or fortran or something
18:43:57 <Taaus> Heh... Well... That's the problem... People have different views of what 'pragmatic' entails ;)
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22:14:33 <lament> ok, so it wasn't a moment
22:19:11 <lament> Are there any hierarchitectitiptitoploftical languages?
22:20:12 <Taaus> It really depends on what the heck you're talking about :)
22:20:34 <lament> I dunno. It's from finnegans wake.
22:20:52 <Taaus> Hmm... No longer using #python on Efnet? :)
22:21:40 <Taaus> Wait... pyn is gone?
22:22:08 <Taaus> Why, Satan, why!?! Why did you take one of your own?!?
22:24:00 <lament> He ran away with exarkun.
22:24:05 <lament> They're having a vacation together.
22:24:24 <Taaus> Oh, right... I knew that. I was there when he asked if someone else could host pyn. '
22:24:35 <Taaus> And you offered to host it ;)
22:24:36 <lament> Somebody else couldn't :(
22:25:01 <Taaus> Oh? Well, exarkun _wanted_ you to host it, ne?
22:25:02 <lament> Not only I'm using my parents' computer
22:25:12 <Taaus> But you couldn't... Etc. etc.
22:25:20 <lament> We're also moving and i don't even have internet at home
22:25:30 <lament> Which so far seems to be a good thing!
22:25:35 <Taaus> Quite a nasty situation, I imagine.
22:26:05 <Taaus> Oh? I guess some people like moving... *shrug*
22:26:07 <lament> When I have internet, I waste all my time chatting with idiots on IRC
22:27:08 <lament> We (my family) moved about seven times in the last ten years
22:27:20 <lament> well, maybe fifteen years
22:27:48 <lament> But now we finally _bought_ a house
22:28:36 <Taaus> I've moved... Twice. In my entire lifetime.
22:29:48 <lament> I don't understand loell
22:30:47 <Taaus> Sets bar to 42 in the expression Foo?
22:31:19 <lament> but there is no expression foo!
22:32:35 <lament> Foo.bar = 42; Foo // returns failure
22:33:00 <Taaus> It's a... Quirk ;)
22:33:37 <lament> I would understand if it returned some object.
22:33:40 <Taaus> There is no Foo... But there is a Foo.bar...
22:33:59 <Taaus> What would you expect Foo to be?
22:35:15 <lament> I would expect Foo.bar = 42 to cause an error
22:35:29 <Taaus> The really fun part is when you do 'Foo.bar = 42;Foo = 3;Foo' ... It returns failure.
22:35:48 <Taaus> Did I mention that Loell was quirky?
22:36:28 <Taaus> Ah, this is probably due to Quirk #2...
22:36:49 <lament> 'quirk' is a good name for a programming language.
22:36:53 <Taaus> There's something very bizarre about the interpreter. It doesn't reset the environment between compilations, or something.
22:37:32 <lament> although, i don't believe you.
22:38:09 <Taaus> Well, maybe he's fixed it... But it definitely carried over _something_ when I tried it originally..
22:38:29 <Taaus> Running the exact same piece of code twice gave different results.
22:38:34 <lament> Anyway, assignment to nonexistent objects is wrong.
22:39:11 <lament> It makes perfect sense
22:39:25 <lament> so Foo.bar is actually failure.bar
22:39:51 <lament> ok it makes sense then.
22:39:57 <lament> Although I'd rather have an exception.
22:41:05 <Taaus> Bah. Why clutter the language with exceptions? :)
22:41:50 <lament> when you can simply extensively test every expression!
22:42:24 <Taaus> Don't forget which channel this is...
22:42:28 <lament> still, this is vile and Perlish.
22:42:38 <lament> Esoteric is one thing, Perlish is another
22:44:51 <lament> also it seems i can't assign to failure
22:46:03 <lament> This returns 5, which is supposed to be success
22:46:59 <lament> By the way i think it should be trivial to compile loell to python
22:48:29 <lament> the only problem would be weird scoping
22:48:40 <lament> but the scoping is not that weird.
22:49:01 <Taaus> Ok. I'll look forward to your implementation :)
22:49:57 <lament> I'm not gonna write it.
22:50:16 <Taaus> Talk to you later.
23:38:47 <Taaus> So, anyway... You were saying?
23:39:33 <lament> Except that I'm not going to write loell
23:40:29 <Taaus> Because it'd be a great learning experience. Now tell me why not.
23:40:59 <lament> Because it'd be a great learning experience!
23:41:04 <lament> Actually, because it wouldn't.
23:41:27 <lament> Compiling it to python? Of course not.
23:41:35 <lament> Python already can do everything loell does.
23:41:49 <Taaus> Ehm... Who said anything about compiling to Python? I certainly didn't.
23:42:20 <lament> 14:37 < lament> By the way i think it should be trivial to compile loell to
23:42:28 <lament> 14:39 <@Taaus> Ok. I'll look forward to your implementation :)
23:43:23 <lament> Writing an interpreter for it in C would be fun, I guess.
23:43:23 <Taaus> I love it when people say 1) It's trivial, but 2) I won't do it.
23:43:32 <lament> because it's not trivial!
23:43:36 <lament> the boring parts are not trivial
23:43:38 <lament> like writing the parser
23:43:51 <Taaus> Bah. Writing a parser is trivial.
23:44:07 <Taaus> Absolutes are boring.
23:44:35 <Taaus> Now read this conversation in reverse.
23:44:52 <lament> <@Taaus> Now read this conversation in reverse.
23:45:17 <Taaus> I'm curious... What _do_ you do with your time? Besides talking about things you won't do?
23:46:46 <lament> Well, I'm supposed to be writing the z-machine assembler
23:46:50 <lament> I probably will, eventually
23:47:06 <lament> Once that's done, I might write some cool language that would compile to it.
23:47:29 <Taaus> Freak! I'll look forward to it. Is that permitted?
23:48:04 <lament> Who needs Parrot when there's the Z-machine?
23:48:26 <lament> (also, who needs Parrot when there's no Z-machine)
23:56:07 <lament> Tiny objecty languages are always fun, but they always lack something.
23:56:13 <lament> Usually something which Python doesn't lack.
23:57:06 <Taaus> I know what you mean. Significant whitespace.
23:57:56 <lament> Io, for example, is not _that_ bad.
23:58:19 <Taaus> Io is... Too young :/
23:58:25 <lament> If it had a generally accepted module system, it would be usable.
23:58:43 <lament> but it doesn't, and it's not.
23:59:18 <Taaus> Well... The same can be said of Scheme, can't it?
00:00:25 <lament> although in case of Io, "generally accepted" would be "accepted by both Io users"
00:01:08 <Taaus> lol... This is from the pragprog mailing list... About the new "Pragmatic" language:
00:01:14 <Taaus> > Just remember that as yet there are no functions, no methods, no calling
00:01:14 <Taaus> > conventions, nothing. All that is built on the block concept.
00:01:15 <Taaus> I agree and that is all well and fine but we *MUST* map it onto a 1-d tape
00:01:18 <Taaus> of bits and primative state transforms at some point.
00:01:25 <Taaus> They're going down.
00:02:24 <lament> what _is_ pragmatic programming?
00:02:35 <Taaus> Programming that gets the job done.
00:03:16 <Taaus> http://pragmaticprogrammer.com/
00:04:52 <Taaus> The Pragmatic Programmers are big proponents of Ruby, yeah.
00:05:22 <lament> You can think of Ruby as a mix of Perl and Smalltalk, or look at it as Python with full object-orientation.
00:06:16 <Taaus> I'm familiar with Ruby. The Smalltalk bits I like... The Perl bits give me the willies.
00:06:25 <lament> yes, but that quote is still WRONG
00:07:04 <Taaus> Oh. I didn't know it was a quote... For one it didn't have quote marks...
00:07:12 <Taaus> Yeah, I was puzzled by that.
00:07:54 <lament> If i send them an email asking to change that, will they?
00:08:11 <Taaus> Ask them to explain it first :)
00:10:15 <Taaus> Damn... The dishwasher is still running... No tea for the next 20 minutes :(
00:12:23 <lament> But i think they just wrote that because it's a trendy thing to write.
00:13:10 <lament> Also the whole website is just too buzzwordy.
00:13:30 <Taaus> I think it's aimed at managers... No such thing as 'too buzzwordy' in that case ;)
00:13:38 <lament> "Andy specializes in blending tried-and-true techniques with leading-edge technologies, creating novel -- but practical -- solutions."
00:13:51 <Taaus> Admittedly, that is rather bad.
00:14:44 <lament> at least they wrote leading, not bleeding.
00:15:13 <Taaus> I don't think 'bleeding-edge' appeals to managers.
00:15:35 <lament> Is the mailing list also aimed at managers?
00:16:13 <Taaus> Nah. It's a bunch of people who claim to be pragmatic programmers. And me.
00:16:37 <lament> Hopefully you make fun of them!
00:16:49 <Taaus> Not really my style.
00:18:20 <lament> I thought pragmatic programmers were called software engineers.
00:18:38 <Taaus> Maybe they are. I wouldn't know...
00:18:49 <Taaus> http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/cgi-local/pragprog?NamingTheProgram <--- Heh...
00:19:24 <Taaus> The RequestedFeatures page is a hoot too.
00:19:44 <lament> "The material in this Wiki is Copyright (c) 2001 the Pragmatic Programmers, LLC, and may well end up in our next book. By posting to this Wiki, you agree that we can use your ideas. Please sign what you enter, and we'll do our best to attribute what you say."
00:19:53 <lament> I don't like those people at all.
00:20:15 <Taaus> lol. Never noticed that.
00:20:41 <Taaus> * Too hard to learn
00:20:41 <Taaus> * Too much like assembly language (Scheme is the assembly of the lambda calculus)
00:20:45 <Taaus> * Not enough industry support
00:20:49 <Taaus> (Reasons why it isn't Pragmatic)
00:21:06 <Taaus> I really like reason #3... That's really a language flaw... Mmm... Yep.
00:21:33 <lament> that's not a language flaw
00:21:38 <lament> just a reason why it's not pragmatic
00:22:16 <Taaus> Well, I bet there's more industry support for Scheme than for Pragmatic.
00:22:19 <lament> Of course it's too hard to learn - it does'nt use C syntax
00:22:29 <Taaus> * Not sufficiently abstract
00:22:29 <Taaus> * Too easy to shoot yourself in the foot
00:23:24 <Taaus> Hmm... I need to try CHICKEN.
00:24:37 <lament> Careful with what you post on the list. It's probably also copyright (c) Them
00:24:48 <Taaus> Have you seen the list of requested features?
00:25:16 <Taaus> # Proper Tail Recursion
00:25:16 <Taaus> # Lisp-like Macros
00:25:24 <Taaus> And first-class functions.
00:28:36 <lament> yay, attacking #python people
00:28:53 <Taaus> Yah... People who are spreading FUD!!
00:47:45 <Taaus> Well, that was fun.
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19:51:47 <lament> the esoteric programming language list on purists.org has been renamed "stupid programming languages"
19:52:11 <lament> Also they write Brainfork instead of Brainfuck
19:52:28 <lament> and never even hint that that's not its true name
20:11:35 <lament> brainfuck was renamed?!?
20:18:19 <Taaus> Brainfork is a lame name.
20:18:28 <Taaus> It isn't supposed to fork your brain.
20:18:42 <lament> bah, stupid purists.org
20:18:48 <lament> "stupid languages" hah!
20:18:55 <Taaus> Hmm... I thought purists.org was kraml.at, or something?
20:19:11 <lament> i can't memorize the new url.
20:22:44 * Taaus prods lament with a named let.
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20:24:59 <Taaus> andreou! Defender of the ppl!
20:25:40 <andreou> Sleepy defender of the people, for that matter.
20:26:11 <Taaus> Well, if you're sleepy, you should... Wait for it... Sleep!
20:26:40 <Taaus> What is your opinion on purists.org renaming Brainfuck to Brainfork?
20:27:20 <Taaus> That was pretty much the reaction I expected.
20:28:10 <andreou> And I expect they'll be using {} for [], () for <> and, what, _= for -+?
20:29:07 <Taaus> Well... It could be worse... They could have renamed it to Ook. (A language I consider to be totally superfluous)
20:29:57 <andreou> Well, from my point of view, they can rename it to DisneyDrum too. It will still be a great Brainfucking experience, no matter how it's called.
20:30:13 <andreou> You can call it a trip, a paper, an LSD shot, it's still a high :-) .
20:30:17 <lament> Taaus: The coolest language ever is e!
20:30:20 <lament> or whatever it's called
20:30:27 <Taaus> What does Ook give me that Brainfuck doesn't?
20:30:46 <lament> andreou: the one that guy on esolang proposed a year ago
20:30:56 <Taaus> Oooh... I remember that language.
20:31:04 <lament> which uses exclamation marks for everything, but otherwise is just brainfuck.... without loops
20:31:08 <Taaus> I preferred the name 'straightfuck' that someone suggested ;)
20:31:28 <andreou> Why did the name change issue came up *at all*?
20:31:53 <lament> Taaus: i remember people decided that "brain" is too obscene
20:31:56 <Taaus> The Brainfuck->Brainfork one?
20:32:00 <lament> Taaus: so they wanted to rename the language to "fuck"
20:32:20 <lament> andreou: because purists.org DID change the name
20:32:22 <Taaus> Well, apparently purists.org is a bunch of prudes.
20:32:46 <lament> andreou: they also renamed their esoteric programming languages list to "stupid programming languages"
20:32:52 <andreou> No, they didn't. They *think* they have, but they haven't.
20:33:29 <andreou> So, purists.org should be removed from the Obfuscated Languages list at dmoz. :-)
20:33:32 <lament> that's like calling fugue a stupid genre, because they're hard to write!
20:33:48 <Taaus> I love writing fugues :)
20:34:00 <lament> Taaus: how many have you written?
20:34:18 <Taaus> I've written more inventions.
20:34:31 <Taaus> (It was part of the first year of my music studies)
20:34:42 <Taaus> The quality... Varies :P
20:35:08 <lament> I wish i studied music.
20:35:11 <andreou> lament then it's ok, it's *they* who's mad, not taaus.
20:35:44 <Taaus> lament: It doesn't exactly help matter that I'm a complete Bach nut. Me and some other music students even started a Bach lodge.
20:36:32 <lament> why are you a music student?
20:36:41 <Taaus> Because music rocks?
20:36:57 <lament> i thought you were a CS student or something like that.
20:37:19 <Taaus> Nah. I'm not good at that stuff.. (j/k)
20:37:31 <Taaus> Actually, I'm switching to Mathematics in a few months.
20:38:22 <lament> speaking of bach, do you have richter's first WTC recording?
20:39:01 <Taaus> I don't think so, no.
20:39:31 <lament> Taaus: you have to ask?
20:39:33 <Taaus> Bon appetit, andreou!
20:39:38 <lament> what kind of bach nut _are_ you? :)
20:39:54 <Taaus> I'm the kind of Bach nut that thinks Glenn Gould is a demigod ;)
20:40:08 <Taaus> And Koopman on the organ. *drool*
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20:42:34 <lament> the humming bach-playing machine!
20:43:04 <Taaus> Do you have any idea how difficult it is to play Bach and hum at the same time?
20:43:34 <lament> do you have any idea how difficult it is to liston to Bach and to humming at the same time?
20:43:59 <Taaus> Yes. It really isn't an issue.
20:44:25 <Taaus> Oh well... De gustibus no est disputandum, I guess.
20:44:34 <lament> anyway, listen to the first prelude from WTC in gould and richter recordings
20:45:12 <Taaus> I'm tired of the WTC 1 prelude in C.
20:45:28 <lament> Yes, but it's good for comparison.
20:45:34 <lament> Gould plays it without legato.
20:46:19 <lament> But at least I've listened to both versions!
20:46:32 <Taaus> Good thing your opinion doesn't matter to me :)
20:47:23 <lament> gould is too much of an 'entertainer'. All those show-off photos, humming, etc
20:48:11 <lament> anyway, why am i arguing, i haven't even written any fugues!
20:49:19 <Taaus> Grrr... The DrScheme editor annoys me.
20:49:46 <lament> For both applicable values of it!
20:50:08 <Taaus> What do you propose I use instead? Bigloo?
20:51:23 <lament> hm, befunge doesn't have threads
20:51:34 <lament> certainly doesn't have voices
20:52:24 <Taaus> Just make it output Lilypond code ;)
20:52:44 <lament> hm, that would be neat
20:53:06 <lament> except i couldn't install lilypond last time i tried
20:53:22 <Taaus> I actually started working on an online collaborative fugue-writing system for our Bach-lodge homepage... But I never got very far :(
20:53:49 <Taaus> Yes. Using Lilypond.
20:53:56 <lament> that sounds like something gould would enjoy!
20:56:38 <lament> outputting raw MIDI would be neat.
21:02:04 <lament> wow, MIDI has major and minor scales. How quaint.
21:02:27 <lament> the scale is defined by number of flats and sharps and one bit for majo/minor
21:03:49 <Taaus> You use quite a lot of exclamation marks, you know that?
21:04:39 <lament> I hope the signature is not actually used for anything!
21:05:11 <lament> of course lilypond is also affected by similar cuteness
21:06:44 <Taaus> Not quite.. Lilypond isn't _restricted_ to major/minor... It just has good definitions to start with... A _lot_ of music is either in the major or minor mode.
21:08:19 <lament> bah, all of music notation is extremely weird
21:08:28 <Taaus> Indeed. But it works ;)
21:08:31 <lament> also things like pianos
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21:11:11 <andreou> Back with a full stomach; screw vengeance.
21:19:01 <Taaus> Hmm... The discussion of the new "Pragmatic" language has moved to another mailing list now. pragmatic_lang at Yahoo groups.
21:19:24 <andreou> Yeap, I'm long gone from the scene.
21:23:08 <andreou> The #esoteric input box is right-aligned.
21:23:08 <Taaus> I think it's you. ;)
21:37:48 <andreou> Who was that von Klaussewitz (sp?) character?
21:38:14 <Taaus> I have no idea. :/
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22:10:29 <lament> Programming is boring.
22:11:07 <andreou> Let me fix this weirdness the hard way.
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22:11:27 <lament> Whatever you do can be done by a turing machine anyway, so why bother?
22:11:53 <lament> And whatever you do on a real computer can be done by SMETANA.
22:12:02 <Taaus> http://www.frap.net/kenn/scmnote/ <--- Look at this, lament :)
22:12:08 <andreou> lament, I think the correct thinking is "Whatever you do can be done by SOMEBODY ELSE".
22:16:53 <lament> how about an esoteric music notation system?
22:17:27 <Taaus> I shudder at the thought.
22:17:35 <lament> The scale would be major bebop, and no way to change it!
22:18:05 <Taaus> Well, major and minor is the same thing... It's just a matter of perspective ;)=
22:18:07 <lament> And of course pythagorean tuning
22:18:18 <lament> Taaus: 'major bebop' is a scale.
22:18:28 <lament> It has nine notes iirc
22:18:37 <Taaus> Ah, I thought you just threw the bebop in there as an exclamation :)
22:19:06 <lament> major and minor aren't the same thing, either.
22:19:54 <Taaus> 'a' is identical to 'C'.
22:20:02 <Taaus> It's just a matter of where you start the scale.
22:20:17 <Taaus> A matter of 'perspective', as I put it.
22:22:08 <lament> of course, 'major' and 'minor' are very stupid words in this context.
22:22:16 <lament> 'ionian' and 'aeolian' are much better
22:24:20 <lament> major bebop is ionian, with an added 5#
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00:22:11 <lament> is music turing-complete?
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00:29:01 <Taaus> Ah, I remember that.
00:34:05 <lament> have you played with it?
00:43:23 <Taaus> Oooh. The Quack Scheme mode for Emacs automatically turns 'lambda' into a small lambda symbol :D
00:43:53 <Taaus> http://www.neilvandyke.org/quack/screenshot.png
00:44:53 <Taaus> Well... I thought it was cute ;)
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17:56:19 <lament> Pragmatic Programmers(tm) replied to my email.
17:56:26 <Taaus> What did they say?
17:56:30 <lament> They exhibit horrible suckage.
17:56:40 <Taaus> Well, that goes without saying.
17:56:53 <Taaus> And they probably reserve the right to include your email in their next book.
17:56:57 <lament> I deleted one of the answers
17:57:06 <lament> but here's the other one
17:57:16 <lament> We've always felt that Python's OO features has a distinctly "bolted-on" feel,
17:57:20 <lament> that they were neither integral nor seemless with the language on the whole.
17:57:22 <lament> Ruby, by comparison, is fully OO from the ground up -- native types included,
17:57:27 <lament> magic names with double underscores, etc.
17:57:30 <lament> That's the gist of it.
17:57:57 <Taaus> Well... My momma always used to say that you shouldn't trust someone who can't spell 'seamless'.
17:58:38 <lament> well, hey - _i_ don't subscribe to their mailing list :)
18:00:30 <andreou> Like 'got me' or something?
18:00:41 <Taaus> I think it's a fencing term.
18:06:16 <lament> There're too many esoteric languages :(
18:06:56 <Taaus> Just eliminate the useless ones, then. Oh, wait...
18:08:22 <lament> well, there're some genuinely bad ones
18:08:51 <lament> Most of the minimal assemblers are rather mediocre
18:09:14 <lament> which includes brainfuck, but brainfuck is special
18:53:24 <lament> Note: That program requires a thue interpreter that understands \n
18:53:42 <Taaus> We call this piece 'andreou's naked ascii-art woman bisected by a Thue program'
18:54:09 <lament> it's the sierpinski cellular automaton
18:54:32 <lament> thue is really awesome for some kinds of stuff
18:54:39 <lament> and absolutely horrible for others
18:54:54 <lament> I wrote a simple rhythm pattern generator in three or so lines
18:55:12 <lament> And then i wante to write an interactive fiction game...
18:59:32 <lament> so, i created four rooms, and the player could move from room to room
18:59:54 <lament> but if player typed anything other than n,e,s,w, the game immediately ended :(
19:00:26 <Taaus> Thue with wildcards. That would be interesting.
19:00:36 <lament> i thought about using regexes
19:00:55 <Taaus> Heh... Do it in SED, you freak. ;)
19:01:40 <Taaus> Yeah... SED isn't very interesting as an esoteric language :/
19:01:52 <lament> but it's a bit too powerful.
19:02:16 <Taaus> Just make a Thue where ? matches any single character.
19:02:30 <lament> My pattern generator, by the way, output things like X.X.XX.X.X.X.XX.
19:03:02 <lament> All such patterns have the property of sounding cool.
19:03:14 <Taaus> Heh... Coolness is subjective.
19:03:19 <lament> except perhaps X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.
19:04:05 <Taaus> You should read the book 'From Polychords to Plya' by Mike Keith... It goes through the mathematics of scales, chords and rhythms :)
19:04:35 <lament> I'm generally not very interested in generated music
19:04:57 <lament> or in mathematics of musics for that matter
19:05:22 <lament> It's too scary a subject
19:06:03 <Taaus> Awww... Is iddle-widdle lament afraid?
19:06:21 <lament> i'm afraid of computers being able to create good music :)
19:06:38 <lament> bad music is ok, though
19:07:18 <Taaus> Heh... I imagine Intercal is classified as a depressant, and not as a stimulant... ;)
19:07:42 <andreou> I think that when I was programming in Intercal I was seeing colors...
19:07:57 <lament> hm, how do i generate a sierpinsi triangle which is not slanted?
19:08:31 <lament> the first four lines of the output of the program i pasted:
19:09:38 <lament> one thing i don't like about Thue is that programs are too long and narrow
19:10:04 <lament> they just don't look cool
19:10:15 <lament> unlike most befunge programs, for example
19:10:16 <Taaus> *cough* Subjective *cough*
19:10:42 <lament> and, of course, the stupid need to escape newlines
19:10:53 <lament> really, thue programs should use a binary format :)
19:11:30 <lament> Yes, subjective. But would you put a thue program in your signature?
19:12:27 <Taaus> I don't know. I don't use signatures.
19:15:17 <lament> thue programs aren't compact.
19:15:36 <Taaus> It's thinking like that that brought us Perl.
19:15:51 <Taaus> If you want compact, go code in J.
19:16:06 <lament> well, Perl is a great esoteric language.
19:16:20 <Taaus> Except for the fact that people haven't realised it's esoteric.
19:17:05 <lament> anyway, they might not realize it, but _of course_ it's esoteric.
19:17:21 <lament> and wonderfully compact.
19:18:41 <lament> significant newlines are highly non-esoteric.
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