00:24:43 <kipple> I fired up my webserver again, and now it actually seems to work fine...
00:25:06 <kipple> maybe it was a one time glitch...
00:25:18 <kipple> or maybe it will go down in a moment....
00:58:52 <GregorR-L> I'll start working on that Kipple interpreter when I get home.
00:58:56 <kipple> bye. i'm off to bed myself
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03:16:12 <GregorR-L> Crapsicles ... Kipple doesn't need to be space-delimited?
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04:35:06 <Keymaker> well, there isn't said any size for them
04:39:51 <GregorR-L> Err, I meant that you can do stuff like:
04:42:35 <Keymaker> but not that much, just remember that stack names are one character (a..z or @)
04:43:43 <Keymaker> so if there is for example a<99b>c you can 'easily' detect where the input stuff (99) ends, because there comes alphabet (b)
04:47:33 <Keymaker> as well remember that a stack can be "connected" with two stuff like a>b<499
04:48:00 <GregorR-L> ORK is not a good language to do this in.
04:48:15 <GregorR-L> Which is not to suggest that it can't be done.
04:48:32 <Keymaker> kipple interpreter in brainfuck would be neat
04:49:01 <Keymaker> since i like the 8-bit environment
04:49:12 <Keymaker> it'd be hard to have 32bit cells in that
04:49:34 <Keymaker> to make interpreter for language using 32bit cells would be hard
04:50:48 <GregorR-L> Binary is 0 and 1, trinary is 0 1 and 2.
04:50:56 <GregorR-L> 0 is false, 2 is true, 1 is undetermined.
04:51:31 <GregorR-L> Or better yet, 1 is "Uuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh......"
04:53:00 <Keymaker> well, good luck with the interpreter
04:53:15 <Keymaker> stupid other-than-computer-time :)
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06:03:00 <GregorR-L> (ten minutes later, Gregor reappears :-P )
06:03:13 <GregorR-L> I'm busy failing to make a Kipple interpreter in ORK.
06:03:51 <calamari> I haven't been keeping track of what's new in here
06:04:37 <calamari> been trying to simplify a roguelike game to its essestials.. not an easy task
06:05:06 <GregorR-L> I've been vaguely considering making a Roguelike probabilistic programming language.
06:05:15 <calamari> GregorR-L: did you create a new language?
06:05:16 <GregorR-L> Merely because it would be so unbelievably stupid.
06:05:46 <calamari> oh thats right.. you did the corewars thing :)
06:06:08 <calamari> I knew you did something cool recently, I just couldn't remember what it was
06:07:40 <GregorR-L> Only one person has actually written a program to challenge mine in FYB.
06:08:26 <calamari> nope.. I was never good at corewars. I meant to play it, but ended up playing C-Robots instead (they were on the same shareware floppy)
06:12:27 <calamari> have you written a roguelike game before? Having trouble with dungeon generation. I need something VERY simple, but simple doesn't seem to be giving good results.
06:13:30 <calamari> I'm probably crazy tho.. the entire game will have to fit in 32k, and I have 16k of memory to work with :)
06:14:00 <GregorR-L> No, I haven't written a Roguelike - my consideration of creating a Roguelike programming language isn't quite the same as making a Roguelike game.
06:15:02 <calamari> are you thinking more of a defined dungeon where the creatures just fight each other to the death?
06:15:04 <GregorR-L> No actual generation of maps - the maps are the programs, so they would be human-made.
06:15:17 <GregorR-L> I don't know how to explain this bizarre idea properly X-D
06:16:39 <GregorR-L> I haven't quite figured that part out.
06:16:54 <calamari> well, it can't be the map, because that wouldn't grow
06:17:05 <calamari> the map would probably be the program
06:17:36 <calamari> rogue has staircases.. so you can have multiple levels (for loops, etc)
06:17:46 <GregorR-L> Yeah, I had already thought about that part.
06:18:01 <GregorR-L> Mainly I'd like to figure out memory before I implement.
06:18:15 <calamari> creatures being memory would be interesting
06:18:30 <calamari> because you can create or destroy them
06:18:43 <calamari> and do operations on them (attack)
06:19:06 <calamari> operators could be their stats
06:19:09 <GregorR-L> I was thinking that the "hero" would be the program pointer. It wouldn't be human controlled, it would wander randomly.
06:21:13 <GregorR-L> No, but that would make it more interesting 8-D
06:21:22 <calamari> you could have a sort of simple AI that decides which creature to attack
06:21:35 <GregorR-L> So it would be predictable, but difficult to predict.
06:21:45 <calamari> I'd image the maps would be more like mazes with intersections where a decision would need to be made
06:23:27 <calamari> I've been wanting to write a fractal programming language (Star Trek).. but can't figure out how it'd work.. can't be a superficial BF model tacked on :)
06:25:29 <calamari> the program instead would have to be a fractal.. but memory would also
06:25:39 <calamari> instead->itself .. bad typos tonight
06:36:51 * GregorR-L is trying to determine how that works...
06:41:01 <calamari> if you figure it out, let me know.. or better yet, write it :)
07:10:18 <GregorR-L> Yeah, I have no clue how that would work :-P
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13:53:19 * Keymaker reads the log first before writes anything :)
13:54:05 <Keymaker> interesting ideas there (again)
13:54:33 <Keymaker> i have had kinda same idea, although not including any violent fighting..
13:54:56 <Keymaker> like some maze "game" language featuring program pointer travelling in some maze
13:55:44 <KnX> befunge+tron , everywhere you go, you make a wall , the IP reverse when she meet a wall
13:57:01 <KnX> ( in fact, it'd do hard to loop with such a language :/ )
14:01:33 <KnX> the loop should rewrite herself while doing her "usefull" job
14:03:02 <Keymaker> but would be pretty hard if every single character/place/whatever would be replaced with a wall
14:03:46 <Keymaker> it'd be pretty hard to fit some replace(x,y,with_this_character) into one character
14:04:32 <Keymaker> if there would be for example 20 instructions, it could work the way that the character would be char-20
14:04:50 <Keymaker> then mod 10 to get x coordinate
14:05:19 <Keymaker> the instruction should be checked first
14:06:37 <Keymaker> ..and finally the remaining stuff (after 10 or whatever) would be the y
14:07:10 <Keymaker> if the area is small this kind of thing would work
14:07:46 <Keymaker> and if the instruction would for example just need to move the pointer right then its x and y stuff would be ignored
14:09:05 <Keymaker> 15x15 area (225) and 30 instructions could work :)
14:09:35 <Keymaker> or maybe 15x16 (240) and 15 instructions
14:10:15 <Keymaker> but making the programs do any useful stuff,
14:11:06 <Keymaker> the instructions would just always need to build the maze back as it were, and the wouldn't get a change to execute any other instructions
14:12:53 <Keymaker> maybe having 15x15 area (225) (that includes x and y data), and then two instructions that can have 15 values
14:13:24 <Keymaker> that way could be defined what place to replace with what, and what to execute
14:15:16 <Keymaker> as well, could be used, that those x and y values could be used with the current instruction, for example it could print out 16*x+y as character
14:15:44 <Keymaker> as well, could be that if what-to-replace is 0, nothing would be replaced
14:16:09 <Keymaker> and all the "walls" could be NOPs
14:16:38 <Keymaker> that when program pointer goes on it would make stuff automatically NOP while it goes
14:17:19 <Keymaker> with this kind of language highly random looking code could be also made, since the instructions could be anything between 0 and 255
14:17:26 <Keymaker> maybe i'll think more about this..
14:19:20 <kipple> it would be a bit difficult to write instructions 0-31 in the source code, though
14:22:43 <Keymaker> but what about using hex editor with width 16? :)
14:23:58 <kipple> yes, that would work :)
14:24:52 <kipple> hmm. how about making a language which ONLY uses control chars? :)
14:25:18 <kipple> that would make some really ugly source code
14:25:27 <Keymaker> and the instruction depending from which direction the program pointer comes from?
14:25:53 <Keymaker> probably space could be the traditional NOP there, like in befunge
14:26:26 <Keymaker> haha, two insane program language ideas on this channel the past hour :)
14:28:03 <Keymaker> if i counted right it would give 16 instructions to use (if having four directions and four instructions for them)
14:28:24 <kipple> there are like 30 control chars
14:29:36 <kipple> or are they perhaps called something else than "control" chars?
14:29:50 <Keymaker> i was talking about a funge style langauge
14:30:05 <Keymaker> using space as blank and < > v ^ as direction characters
14:30:48 <kipple> that would be cool too
14:31:44 <Keymaker> hmm.. would it be possible with only one character to control the direction?
14:32:31 <Keymaker> it would cause executing unwanted instructions
14:33:01 <Keymaker> but what about two instructions for moving?
14:33:40 <kipple> what do you mean, for space?
14:34:19 <Keymaker> if the program is in 2d space the instructions can't be this way:
14:35:20 <Keymaker> this kind of thing would allow 8 instructions to be executed
14:35:31 <kipple> wouldn't that be much like wierd (or whatever it's called)
14:37:20 <Keymaker> iirc in wierd the instruction was defined by the angles the lines of '*' crossed each other
14:37:40 <Keymaker> well, this would be kinda like that
14:39:34 <kipple> it's usually not the most important thing in an esolang... :)
14:40:38 <Keymaker> hmm. i need food (read: noodles)
15:06:32 <KnX> for information , i decided to separate my befunge core from the funge-space, making a funge-space-librairy which could be usefull for many langages maybe ...
16:29:53 <GregorR> Of course it's possible to have only one character to control direction flow.
16:33:05 <Keymaker> yes, but iirc the direction can be change in 2l if the first (?) memory cell is zero or non-zero
16:33:31 <GregorR> It's if the current cell - and you can force a direction, like so:
16:34:06 <GregorR> In one case, it will turn right. In the other case, it will turn left-left-left
16:34:32 <Keymaker> but in 2l there is one command to execute the instruction, right?
16:34:39 <Keymaker> and other to control the pointer
16:34:53 <Keymaker> language where those would the same
16:34:57 <GregorR> Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
16:35:43 <Keymaker> like where program pointer would execute different instructions depending where it comes to the direction-changer
16:36:04 <Keymaker> and as far as i can see there is no way to make that kind of language working without it executing un-wanted instructions
16:36:13 <GregorR> Where as in its x-y location?
16:37:03 <GregorR> Keymaker like where program pointer would execute different instructions depending where it comes to the direction-changer < do you mean the direction it comes from or the location of the next instruction?
16:37:20 <Keymaker> the direction where it comes from
16:37:26 <Keymaker> if it for example comes from left
16:37:46 <GregorR> Yeah, I can't see how that could work, since you would be forced into a direction that wouldn't necessarily do what you want.
16:38:42 <Keymaker> or more like forced to execute unwanted instruction while trying to get the correct direction
16:39:59 <Keymaker> wait.. i try to think what i was about to say
16:41:26 <GregorR> I think you would need at least 2.
16:44:27 <Keymaker> i think it still doesn't work that way
16:44:42 <Keymaker> like if the direction-changers execute instruction
16:44:56 <Keymaker> you still get unwanted instructions even if you have two of them
16:45:16 <GregorR> You could have a pure-direction-changer and an op-direction-changer.
16:49:51 <Keymaker> anyways; GregorR: did you read the log?
16:49:58 <Keymaker> about that maze language ideas?
16:50:44 <GregorR> Briefly, but I didn't quite get it :-P
16:51:05 <GregorR> Unless you're talking about me yesterday ;)
16:51:20 <GregorR> But that was just an allusion.
16:51:47 <Keymaker> probably just writing what came to my mind :)
16:52:06 <GregorR> Well, I've got to go to school.
17:04:46 <pgimeno> {kipple the human}: could you please tell me if {kipple the language} is imperative and 1D?
17:05:29 <kipple> what's the definition of imperative? I think it is, but not quite sure
17:06:00 * kipple is looking up in wikipedia
17:06:02 <pgimeno> I'm not sure I could make up a definition
17:06:18 <kipple> well, it is definately not functional
17:06:45 <kipple> arg. wikipedia is so incredibly slow
17:07:35 * pgimeno files the Kipple bookmark into his imperative 1-D deterministic languages folder
17:07:47 <kipple> the stacks are 1 dimentional, but since there are several stacks one could perhaps argue that it is 2D?
17:08:09 <pgimeno> no, I mean, befunge is a 2D language but (say) pascal, basic, etc. are 1d
17:08:25 <Keymaker> (in case that isn't answered yet :))
17:08:28 <kipple> are there many langs that are not deterministic? I only know of Java2k I think
17:08:42 <pgimeno> not many... I can recall of three right now
17:08:48 <kipple> ah, yes you mean dimentions in the source code of course
17:09:19 <pgimeno> Java2K, Thue and Whenever are the non-deterministic ones I remember right now
17:09:51 <pgimeno> well, there's Sartre which I'm not sure about
17:12:19 <pgimeno> regarding the discussion about making a 2D language where direction changes are expressed by just one symbol... ever played KBlackBox?
17:13:21 <pgimeno> there's a 2D "black box" (grid) and you throw "rays"
17:13:38 <pgimeno> there are four marbles within the board
17:14:25 <pgimeno> depending on which position the ray reappears, it gives information on where the marbles are
17:14:50 <pgimeno> the aim is to guess where the marbles are using the least possible number of rays
17:16:28 <kipple> sounds like a KDE game. am I right :)
17:16:55 <Keymaker> i guessed something like that as well
17:17:05 <kipple> linux game makers are not too creative when it comes to naming games....
17:17:51 <pgimeno> the relevant part is this:
17:18:35 <pgimeno> if you throw a ray from the left side of the box, it bounces in a straight angle when the marble is at the northeast of the cell
17:19:47 <pgimeno> anyway it would be a way to make a program pointer bounce in any arbitrary direction, if the positions to its relative left or right can be examined
17:21:15 <pgimeno> the + is the direction changer
17:21:35 <pgimeno> the straight angle turn is due to the presence of the direction changer
17:22:18 <pgimeno> (that's how a ray bounces in KBlackBox too)
17:23:09 <pgimeno> in KBlackBox, this one makes the ray to return the way it came:
17:24:15 <pgimeno> that idea could be used with a 2D esoteric language
17:24:58 <Keymaker> how about executing instructions?
17:25:11 <Keymaker> should some another character be used to that?
17:25:21 <pgimeno> that's beyond the scpoe of this document ;)
17:25:51 <Keymaker> like the changing of the instruction could happen
17:26:08 <Keymaker> depending how the program pointer goes
17:26:13 <Keymaker> and instruction would be executed
17:26:25 <Keymaker> when the pointer goes back where it came
17:26:56 <Keymaker> this kind of language would take extremely much space but at least beat GregorR's 2L ;)
17:27:32 <pgimeno> hum, a problem with going back in the same way is that the whole way would be undone
17:28:14 <pgimeno> ugh, that idea looks sooo ugly :)
17:28:30 <pgimeno> ... the pointer "pushes" the + sign at the time of bouncing
17:28:54 <pgimeno> so you actually have a self-modifiable program, ΰ la Malbolge
17:33:17 <pgimeno> some day I will take a look at the Alpaca system
17:33:57 <Keymaker> haven't heard of any Alpace engine
17:34:50 <pgimeno> http://catseye.webhop.net/
17:36:17 <Keymaker> couldn't get there for some reason
17:37:11 <pgimeno> it's a redirector to http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/
17:38:51 <Keymaker> http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/preview.png
17:39:05 <Keymaker> i'm trying to make a really simple design for my brainfuck site
17:40:20 <pgimeno> not counting the PREVIEW sign they are :)
17:45:24 <pgimeno> the simplicity of your design can't beat the simplicity of my lack of design ;)
17:46:04 <pgimeno> I'm not very aesthetically-oriented, I just care about contents (in case you haven't noted)
17:47:29 <Keymaker> yeah, i care most about the content as well
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17:49:43 <GregorR-L> Keymaker: You're living in a dream world ;)
17:50:18 <GregorR-L> (/me was just remembering about the 1-command language)
17:52:26 <GregorR-L> So, does probabalistic count as nondeterministic?
17:52:55 * GregorR-L is seriously considering making a programming language based on NetHack :-P
17:54:54 <GregorR-L> You build a little array of rooms...
17:55:13 <GregorR-L> And the doors could be one-way, or only-if-condition, etc, to make loops.
17:55:40 <GregorR-L> Unfortunately, I haven't quite figured out some of the stranger attributes :-P
17:56:21 <GregorR-L> Mainly, do I want the data pointer to just be in a stack or tape...
17:56:29 <GregorR-L> Or do I want the data pointer to be your pet >:)
17:57:28 <GregorR-L> AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
17:57:47 <GregorR-L> I guess that means nothing to a non-north-american.
17:58:29 <GregorR-L> Exactly why I don't want that shortform ;)
17:59:54 <GregorR-L> I'll call it ... The Rogue Language
18:00:05 <GregorR-L> Read with the proper emphasis, that's pretty cool :-P
18:08:53 <GregorR-L> We're studying turing machines in the class I ought to be paying attention to right now :-P
18:09:00 <GregorR-L> And I can't keep my mind off of brainfuck
18:09:26 <GregorR-L> 2) A TM can be described by: 1) A graph. 2) A brainfuck program
18:10:33 <Keymaker> interesting stuff you have there
18:10:43 <Keymaker> is it just a normal university?
18:11:08 <Keymaker> i hope i can find a good place to get learnin' that stuff the next year
18:11:23 <Keymaker> or well actually after ~1.5 years
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20:11:50 <Keymaker> managed to get back for a while
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20:19:44 * pgimeno is right now working in his own esoteric language
20:21:24 <pgimeno> it'll be *called* Bitxtreme
20:21:36 <pgimeno> it's actually a company's name but who cares
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21:06:01 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/prog/esoteric/Bitxtreme.php
21:31:44 <pgimeno> oops, gtg, see you tomorrow
21:39:07 <fizzie> It seems to already have the 0 and 1 bits, what more do you need?
21:41:46 <pgimeno> well, I'm also working in some subtle I/O details... you know, I don't want this spec to be imprecise or incomplete like that of HQ9+ which lacks a specification of the initial accumulator's value
21:42:54 <pgimeno> I think that's worth being mentioned as well
21:50:55 <pgimeno> updated; now I'm really off, bye
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