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00:50:12 <kipple> calamari: there is a problem with a site that is hosted by one person (like yourself)
00:50:37 <kipple> if you get run over by a bus, or stops updating for some reason, the site is lost
00:51:06 <kipple> that's where wikipedia and wikicities are (hopefully) more safe
00:51:56 <calamari_> wikipedia is bad, because we're breaking the rules there (no original research)
00:52:10 <kipple> yes. hence wikicities may be a good alternative
00:53:41 <calamari_> unless advertising runs out, then *poof* it's gone :)
00:54:09 <kipple> but it doesn't look like those independent wiki's manage to get much content
00:55:14 <calamari_> I mostly offered because it seemed like there was a lot of talk but no actiob
00:55:27 <kipple> yes. and it is a good offer
00:56:26 <kipple> we should go with what most people prefer (if we can get people to say that)
00:56:58 <calamari_> what about esoeric.sange.fi? That'd get my vote.. I wish I could remember the guys name
00:57:10 <calamari_> he's been running the bf archive for ages
00:57:35 <calamari_> and it's his own machine.. so it's not likely to be taken down
00:57:57 <GregorR> Unless Esoteric programming is deemed illegal and army troopers storm his home and destroy it.
00:58:03 <kipple> same as with yours: dependent on one person
00:58:14 <calamari_> I'd trust him over wikicities, to be honest
00:58:27 <calamari_> I've never even heard of wikicities before
00:58:30 <GregorR> It's even older than wikipedia, yes?
00:58:37 <kipple> maybe we could come up with a mirroring system of our own wiki
00:59:09 <calamari_> mirroring sounds good.. there has to be a way,.. there are hundreds of wikipedia ripoff sites out there
00:59:49 <calamari_> probably some Java program that crawls the wiki and grabs the sources
01:00:00 <kipple> if we could have two or three mirrors of the same wiki we should be safe
01:01:00 <kipple> ideally, they should be synchronized so that you could update in any one, at it would get propagated... not sure if such software exist
01:01:31 <calamari_> I think the best we could hope for are daily or maybe hourly automated updates
01:02:14 <kipple> as for the discussion earlier about the ψ character, yes it is norwegian/danish.
01:02:15 <calamari_> I think if everyone used the same software setup, it could be a fairly simple job of archiving a directory and sending it out
01:02:32 <kipple> it is a vowel pronounced as in duh or burn
01:02:43 * GregorR considers writing something.
01:03:22 <calamari_> kipple: I think the mirroring idea is the best yet
01:03:23 <GregorR> What wiki software is it based on?
01:03:39 <calamari_> GregorR: MoinMoin seems like a winner, to me
01:03:41 <GregorR> There's no reason who an edit couldn't prompt a cascade with the proper modifications.
01:03:42 <kipple> I would prefer the one wikipedia uses
01:03:58 <GregorR> What formats to they store in?
01:04:13 <calamari_> MoinMoin doesn't require a database.. which is nice
01:04:30 * GregorR begins leaning toward MoinMoin ;)
01:04:54 <GregorR> If there was just an ssh server on the required boxes, files could be scp'd in on edit.
01:05:03 <GregorR> Updates would cascade instantly.
01:05:07 <kipple> I dislike the wikis that can't have spaces in the links. but maybe that's just me
01:06:46 <GregorR> I'm going to make some modifications to MoinMoin and see what I come up with.
01:09:45 <calamari_> well, you're right.. the link dont have spaces, but the user doesn't know
01:10:52 <kipple> if MoinMoin is just flat files, it should be easy to sync, I think
01:11:01 <calamari_> GregorR: I tried one of those simple ones and it performed very badly.. php wiki or something.. remember that one?
01:11:20 <GregorR> Wiki! is flat-file, simple, nice in my opinion.
01:11:28 <GregorR> Not a very good home page :P
01:11:45 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/odikeh/
01:11:52 <GregorR> It's very non-intrusive, there's a list of links at the bottom.
01:12:18 <GregorR> That one requires logins, actually.
01:12:28 <GregorR> But it can be set either way.
01:14:16 <GregorR> One could apply their own template.
01:14:36 <calamari_> kipple: just looked because I was curious about MoinMoin.. it stores the pages in a directory tree
01:14:37 <GregorR> By modifying the code to their liking.
01:15:02 <calamari_> so it'd be a simple tar and send operation
01:15:57 <kipple> isn't thats what rsync is for?
01:16:03 <GregorR> It wouldn't be good to tar the enti---I was about to say that X-D
01:16:36 <calamari_> never heard of it :) checks man rsync
01:18:19 <kipple> the problem is if the two wikis are both updated differently. Then you would lose the changes in one when you sync. Is there an easy way to fix that?
01:18:52 <kipple> one solution is, of course to just have one that can be edited, and use the rest as pure backups
01:20:28 <calamari_> stupid question time.. how does rysn connect without a password?
01:21:28 <GregorR> If the "I'm-being-edited" cookie was stored in a file.
01:21:38 <GregorR> calamari_: Rsync can go via SSH
01:22:25 <GregorR> Oh, "Wiki!" is even more templatable than I thought.
01:22:26 <calamari_> there is rsync -u .. update only.. do not overwirte newer files
01:22:41 <GregorR> It has a template.html page that has $title, $node and $bar. Just put those in and it works with any template.
01:22:47 <kipple> but that would leave the two different
01:23:17 <calamari_> hrm actually, that'll never work.. clocks are always different
01:26:10 <calamari_> kipple: what if when on a mirror they click edit, it actually redirects to the "main" site and edits there instead?
01:26:36 <kipple> but then, why not redirect to the main site the moment you enter the mirror
01:26:48 <calamari_> because if the main site goes down you lose the content
01:27:04 <calamari_> this way, you'd just lose the ability to edit
01:27:05 <GregorR> calamari_: I like your idea - edit redirecting that is.
01:27:09 <kipple> not if it is mirrored every hours or so
01:27:17 <GregorR> We need to update instantly.
01:28:12 <kipple> how about htis: if you edit a mirror, it is also submitted immediately to the main site
01:29:11 <GregorR> OK, so, remote sites have cron jobs to download every hour, and when a page is edited it is always uploaded to the main site, yes?
01:29:27 <kipple> I think that could work
01:29:51 <kipple> but there are of course some locking issues
01:29:59 <GregorR> Most wikis don't lock anyway *shrugs*
01:30:23 <GregorR> If we saved a revision history, things could be restored.
01:31:00 <kipple> gotta grab some food. brb
01:35:32 <GregorR> OK, here's my thoughts ...
01:35:48 <GregorR> The main wiki has a list of subwikis,
01:35:54 <GregorR> The subwikis know what the main wiki is...
01:35:59 <GregorR> So the subwikis all have a cron job,
01:36:20 <GregorR> Plus a setuid-whoever program that sends a file UP to the main wiki.
01:36:30 <GregorR> The Wiki software just acts like normal,
01:36:41 <GregorR> But upon an edit, calls that setuid-whoever program.
01:37:08 <GregorR> Of course, everybody would have to know the main wiki's SSH public key
01:37:39 <calamari_> not a problem.. we could have an information wiki page on how to add a new node to the wiki
01:37:39 <GregorR> The main wiki would have to know everybody's public keys.
01:37:56 <GregorR> Even that could be automated, really.
01:38:12 <GregorR> I guess since it's a wiki, it's irrelevant.
01:38:48 <GregorR> Anybody mind giving me an account somewhere so I can set something up as a test?
01:39:12 <kipple> my web server is nor functional currently :(
01:39:37 <calamari_> GregorR: I'm using a shell provider.. sorry
01:39:45 <calamari_> I could set you up on my local box
01:39:45 <kipple> if you want an account it is....
01:39:45 <GregorR> Oh, btw, I have another retort on Python: While most web servers support PHP, most do not support Python ;)
01:40:06 <GregorR> I just need an ssh account somewhere.
01:40:16 <GregorR> I don't even really need web access.
01:40:24 <GregorR> I just don't have a spare box lying around.
01:42:00 <calamari_> GregorR: that's good, because my connection cuts out every 4 hours :)
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01:59:22 <kipple> so, what's your take on this wiki business?
01:59:28 <pgimeno> I personally like the MoinMoin idea
01:59:52 * GregorR sits in his corner, alone as the only supporter of "Wiki!"
02:02:35 <pgimeno> I don't like the idea of sending an edit to another server
02:02:53 <pgimeno> I prefer a main server and non-editable mirrors
02:03:06 <kipple> yeah, I think I do as well
02:03:15 <GregorR> If that's agreed, then I'm done X-D
02:03:23 <GregorR> An rsync every hour and that's it.
02:03:34 <kipple> perhaps not that often
02:03:44 <GregorR> Anyway, I've got to go eat home-made chicken soup. It's a terrible life. Bye 8-D
02:03:51 <pgimeno> once or twice a day would be enough
02:04:08 <kipple> that could be left to each mirrorer to decide
02:04:37 <kipple> I'd say once a day is more than enough
02:05:03 <pgimeno> the mirror should be able to be switched to a main server, just for the case the main one fails
02:06:51 <pgimeno> a notification in the ML may be enough for the mirrors to start mirroring another server
02:07:14 <kipple> that could be done manually. it's not something that should happen often
02:11:09 <kipple> the list has been pretty dead recently though
02:11:29 <pgimeno> lack of traffic does not imply lack of people (I hope)
02:11:54 <pgimeno> the IRC was apparently also quite dead until GregorR and I joined
02:12:18 <kipple> possibly. I pretty new here myself
02:13:14 <pgimeno> that's the impression I got from Keymaker's words
02:13:58 <kipple> well, it does look like the four of us do most of the talking here nowadays...
02:14:46 <cpressey> don't think that just because i don't talk much, that i'm not actively lurking :)
02:15:19 <pgimeno> I wanted to ask you about two things
02:15:42 <pgimeno> one is OOPS, any reference apart from the mention in your old page? Google didn't help
02:16:31 <cpressey> ? ... hmm. no. i think it was briefly sketched in a message to the (old) mailing list. but iirc it was not a fully formed idea
02:16:42 <cpressey> i don't remember whose idea it was, either
02:17:04 <cpressey> iirc the objective was an object-oriented tarpit...
02:17:11 <pgimeno> the other is rube2; the wayback machine doesn't hold the archive and all I was able to get was a version for Atari ST
02:17:39 <pgimeno> rube is an idea of yours, right?
02:17:44 <cpressey> that's interesting... i still have it somewhere, i guess i didn't put it back on my site after i recovered it from that disk crash
02:18:06 <cpressey> the original RUBE was mine, yes.... RUBE II was john c's slight change + implementation
02:18:20 <pgimeno> that was my impression, thanks
02:18:31 <pgimeno> so are you going to put it back online?
02:18:31 <cpressey> (the original had a really _awful_ implementation... rube ii's code is much better)
02:18:40 <cpressey> i can see if i can dig it out, but it might take a while
02:18:59 <cpressey> i should also maybe put illgol back up :)
02:19:11 <pgimeno> and thank you for initiating me in this esoteric world! :)
02:19:58 <cpressey> yes, to reach the next level, you must stay locked in a mailbox overnight while we all sing sea shanties at you.
02:20:31 <cpressey> then you get a nifty apron and... oh, no! i've already said too much!
02:21:43 <cpressey> i pretty much agree that wikipedia shouldn't be playing host to each and every esolang.
02:21:53 <cpressey> but i don't know where to draw the line either.
02:22:10 <cpressey> as for having a "satellite"... i'm not convinced that a wiki is the best tool for the job...
02:22:19 <cpressey> there used to be something called the Esoteric Language Database
02:22:30 <cpressey> which was renamed to the Stupid Languages Database
02:22:40 <kipple> yes, but why not use a wiki for it?
02:22:44 <pgimeno> encyclopedia of stipid languages? yes it's gone
02:23:00 <kipple> it is important that it is easy for several people to edit
02:23:01 <cpressey> well, why not use a "forge" for it, like luaforge or rubyforge?
02:23:13 <cpressey> the wiki aspect is useful, yes
02:23:21 <cpressey> but these are also (generally speaking) projects
02:23:41 <cpressey> it would be sweet if there was a tool that combined both
02:23:49 <cpressey> in fact i think there is, but i forget what it's called
02:24:17 <pgimeno> I was also considering Subversion; the problem is that the editor has to modify the HTML code directly, no quick-and-easy markup
02:24:27 <cpressey> i'm not sure if i'd use it, but i thought i'd toss the idea out there
02:24:53 <pgimeno> I don't know if that "forge" thing is similar to a version control system
02:25:22 <cpressey> plus, the problem (i guess) if you have publically changeable code, is that it's very easy to slip in exploits unnoticed
02:25:46 <cpressey> yeah, the "forge" software, whatever it is, is like sourceforge's site. i think it can use cvs or svn for version control
02:26:08 <cpressey> but it is more project-oriented than reference-oriented.
02:26:25 <kipple> personally, it is the reference part I'm most interested in
02:28:43 <pgimeno> I don't get what you mean by reference here
02:29:11 <cpressey> well, "looking things up" is what i meant by it :)
02:30:39 <pgimeno> the idea is not like cooperative project development; it's more like hosting each personal project's description and files, pretty much like what cat's eye is currently hosting
02:31:57 <pgimeno> as long as a wiki is able to host files, I think it's good enough
02:33:16 <cpressey> fwiw, apparently this is what i was thinking of --> http://projects.edgewall.com/trac/
02:35:44 <cpressey> at any rate, i'm not pushing the idea. any sort of resource would be great, obviously.
02:36:04 <cpressey> the main problem is long-term reliability :)
02:36:12 <pgimeno> pretty interesting for community development, indeed
02:36:56 <cpressey> hm, so maybe the mirroring is an important feature...
02:37:26 <pgimeno> yes, that's the whole point of mirroring
02:44:15 <pgimeno> kipple: is rune.krokodille.com yours?
02:47:51 <kipple> your welcome. Why, btw?
02:49:06 <pgimeno> I followed the link from the wikipedia and it failed, I just wanted to be sure it was your site to get an idea on how it would work again (about a week, you said a few days ago)
02:49:24 <kipple> ah well. not so sure now.
02:49:53 <kipple> the root partition seems to have lost some files. can't boot.
02:50:04 <kipple> don't know how much else is lost
02:50:15 <kipple> maybe I'll have time to look into it next week
02:50:35 <kipple> I'm not a linux expert, so it may take some time
02:51:52 <cpressey> from a brief googling, it doesn't look like there is any ready-made solution for a synchronized multi-host wiki. there's some discussion of mirroring wiki content (one-way), but that's not nearly as useful...
02:53:46 <pgimeno> cpressey: regular non-editable mirrors sound OK to me
02:54:06 <kipple> yeah. the mirrors doesn't have to be editable
02:54:32 <kipple> anyway, it's 4am here. Good night :)
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02:58:01 <cpressey> the thing is, if the person running the editable wiki decides to stop (for whatever reason)... well, as long as there's a way to choose which of the mirrors gets to be the "next" editable one, i suppose that works
02:58:20 <cpressey> and all the other mirrors update to mirror from it
02:59:45 <cpressey> anyway, i have to eat now :) ttyl (and i'll try to get rube ii up this evening)
03:00:36 <pgimeno> bon appetit and thank you very much
03:01:03 <pgimeno> I'm going to sleep as well (I'm on the same time zone as kipple)
03:48:38 <cpressey> ok, i put both rube & rube ii back online --> http://catseye.webhop.net/projects/rube/
03:58:30 * GregorR goes to play "The Incredible Machine" :P
03:58:50 * cpressey should probably work in curses support.... someday......
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04:39:51 <CXI> moin moin's a bit icky to work with - one of my uni courses uses it for notes
04:48:37 <CXI> incidentally, see http://www.wikicities.com/wiki/Database_download for info about backups (it'd be about as complicated as wget and a cron job)
05:26:25 <GregorR> Using wget would cause a massive redownload every backup, no?
05:31:06 <CXI> not terribly massive - just the curr table
05:31:16 <CXI> (as in, current versions of every page, not the whole history)
05:31:32 <CXI> but it's not incremental, if that's what you mean
05:32:56 <CXI> though a diff-based update would be kinda nice
05:33:55 <GregorR> But lemme take a look at that page.
05:34:48 <GregorR> I've got it all set up for "Wiki!"
05:34:52 <GregorR> But, nobody likes "Wiki!" so :P
07:43:55 <GregorR> Gregor's customized version of "Wiki!" supports guest posting and file uploads, and titles with spaces in them (which was supported anyway)
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08:06:42 <GregorR> Where's the big explosion?
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12:57:55 <pgimeno> <GregorR> But, nobody likes "Wiki!" so :P
13:00:46 <pgimeno> GregorR: from my point of view, the question is not to like or not to like; just MoinMoin is already set up and running in calamari's server, and if there's a compelling reason to make the effort of changing I'm for it
13:01:22 <pgimeno> <cpressey> ok, i put both rube & rube ii back online --> http://catseye.webhop.net/projects/rube/
13:01:52 <pgimeno> thank you very much, cpressey!
13:09:41 <pgimeno> you know, I thought that the name came instead from Sierra's Space Quest II adventure where there's a toy called Cubix Rube
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14:01:55 <pgimeno> hm, this rube2 thing is much harder to get working than rube
15:19:07 <kipple> does MoinMoin only save the last two revisions? When I click show changes in the EsoWiki, only the last two are available...
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16:35:08 <pgimeno> kipple: click on "Get Info"
18:54:41 <GregorR> So, how much information are we supposed to put on the Wiki? I suppose the full spec and everything, so that if eso.codu.org (as an example) fell out of existance, it would be there?
19:09:11 <GregorR> Hmm ... how do you make MoinMoin show 2L code without trying to be all wiki-i with it...
19:13:28 <kipple> don't know. I assume it has some tags for such things
19:15:49 <kipple> have you tried {{{ }}} ?
19:16:27 <GregorR> I figured that out after a bit.
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22:22:22 <kipple> do you have another machine that's logged in?
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