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04:54:36 <Keymaker> i gotta try that language soon
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20:33:55 <GregorR-L> Not turing complete I assume, since it's not exactly ... well ... that.
20:36:30 <kipple> how much would it take to make it turing complete, I wonder... :)
20:36:57 <GregorR-L> Well, it would have to have a concept of numbers :p
20:37:34 <pgimeno> that's what a fractal language could look like
20:39:00 <pgimeno> GregorR-L: I'm writing the message for the ML about the servers; could you please repeat what are your changes to Wiki!?
20:39:59 <pgimeno> I got confused by what did you change and what was already supported
20:40:15 <kipple> so, what are the alternatives you have so far?
20:40:16 <GregorR-L> I just secured the logins a bit more and added an uploads dialog.
20:41:27 <GregorR-L> But since even I've started posting stuff to the MoinMoin wiki, it's pretty irrelevent :P
20:41:59 <pgimeno> hm, so do I delete that part from consideration?
20:43:14 <pgimeno> maybe the final decision involves a different approach
20:43:19 <GregorR-L> Unless anybody can see any advantages to it over MoinMoin.
20:43:27 <kipple> does the MoinMoin wiki support file uploads? (like binaries, archives and pdfs)
20:43:30 <pgimeno> kipple: the alternatives are static content and wiki; within wiki, the three ones already running, namely Wikicities, calamari's and the voxelwhatever
20:43:59 <GregorR-L> If it doesn't, there's a big point for "Wiki!" :P
20:44:18 <pgimeno> calamari's is MoinMoin; the voxelXXXX seems to be phpwiki
20:44:24 <GregorR-L> MoinMoin is python, and many servers don't support Python.
20:44:39 <pgimeno> yeah, that's the big con against MoinMoin
20:44:39 <GregorR-L> So it would be more difficult to get true mirrors.
20:44:50 <kipple> WikiMedia is my personal preference
20:45:03 <pgimeno> Wikicities is not a Wikimedia project
20:45:18 <GregorR-L> Flat files are nicer for cross-site distribution.
20:45:36 <kipple> it's easy to distribute an sql-dump
20:46:03 <GregorR-L> It's the same issue as with MoinMoin though - the more basic it is the more mirrors are likely.
20:46:27 <pgimeno> from http://www.wikicities.com/wiki/What_Wikicities_is_not : "[Wikicities is not] a Wikimedia project"
20:46:53 <pgimeno> yeah, I didn't want to take it out
20:47:14 <kipple> I meant: I prefer MediaWiki (not to be confused with WikiMedia) :)
20:47:23 <pgimeno> in any case it looks a LOT like Wikipedia
20:47:35 <kipple> Wikipedia and Wikicities both use MediaWiki
20:48:42 <kipple> I have yet to see a wiki that looks as good as MediaWiki
20:48:48 <pgimeno> I'm not very confident about a MySQL database either
20:48:59 <pgimeno> yeah, the look is pretty good
20:49:06 <GregorR-L> (Wiki! is templatable through a template.html file, so it can look exactly like MediaWiki if you want)
20:49:39 <kipple> it's just the ones I've seen so far has looked very good
20:49:47 <pgimeno> maybe voxelperfect's is a MediaWiki?
20:49:49 <GregorR-L> The big draw-back of Wiki! for the record is that it uses HTML, rather than a convenient Wikiscript.
20:50:11 <pgimeno> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ (for reference)
20:50:29 <pgimeno> oops, doesn't it use custom markup?
20:50:46 <GregorR-L> Which I think is nice, but that is clearly just me.
20:51:04 <pgimeno> does user's text go straight to the page?
20:51:18 <GregorR-L> Yup - though of course wiki links use [blah]
20:51:32 <GregorR-L> That's the only non-HTML-ism it has.
20:51:33 <kipple> voxelperfect seems to be mediawiki
20:52:06 <pgimeno> oh, then it's not straight HTML, it looks similar to phpBB or even MediaWiki
20:52:31 <GregorR-L> Well, MediaWiki has convenient wikiisms, no?
20:52:33 <pgimeno> I bet it won't allow certain tags and will impose restrictions on others
20:52:59 <pgimeno> it has its own markup if that's what you ask
20:53:33 <pgimeno> it may be more restricted but anyway I think it's OK
20:54:06 <GregorR-L> I personally prefer pure HTML to Wiki syntaxes, but like I said, I'm sure that's just me.
20:54:26 <pgimeno> well, I think that asking for HTML tags for special contents is not asking too much in a community of people used to code in weird languages
20:55:15 <kipple> agreed. but I think you'll get a more unified look if you don't use HTML
20:55:32 <kipple> but maybe that's not important
20:55:46 <pgimeno> actually, the style sheet should deal with things that structure the page like <h2>, <pre> etc.
20:56:07 <kipple> a good thing with HTML is that one can take a web page and paste it directly into the wiki
20:56:47 <kipple> there is a difference with what _should_ happen, and what will happen...
20:56:48 <pgimeno> I actually doubt it allows straight HTML; it will probably be a restricted HTML like in blogspot or phpBB
20:57:05 <pgimeno> (sorry if my fingers are a bit lagged)
20:58:12 <GregorR-L> When I said "Simple," I meant "simple" ;)
20:59:13 <pgimeno> well, then anonymous posting shouldn't be allowed
20:59:52 <GregorR-L> That's the only problem with it, so I'm putting it out there.
21:00:26 <pgimeno> hm, maybe I can work in a parser or something... (I'm quite busy with the rest of my projects though)
21:01:11 <pgimeno> could you please elaborate on the security-related changes?
21:01:23 <pgimeno> security is a concern to me as well
21:01:56 <GregorR-L> It used to use a cookie that just had your username, so anybody who could set the cookie could get a user account.
21:02:14 <GregorR-L> Now it uses the username and a hashed password, and the password is double-hashed on the far end.
21:02:24 <pgimeno> yuck, actually phpBB suffered that problem as well
21:04:09 <GregorR-L> Still not as secure as it could be.
21:04:17 <GregorR-L> And you just got me thinking about how I could secure it more :P
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21:05:18 <pgimeno> I'm preparing the message to the ML
21:05:40 <pgimeno> we're discussing about including Wiki! in the list
21:05:50 <pgimeno> in the list of wiki possibilities, that is
21:05:56 <kipple> if in doubt, include it
21:05:58 <GregorR-L> I hate its name so much I want to fork it and make my own X-D
21:06:32 <GregorR-L> I can call it GWiki and imply that it's GNU because of my first name ...
21:06:42 <GregorR-L> I could call it KWiki and imply that it's for KDE because of my middle name ...
21:07:34 <GregorR-L> I'm submitting this baby to Sourceforge >:)
21:07:50 <GregorR-L> That would be project #5 I think ...
21:07:55 <pgimeno> MoinMoin's main problem is Python
21:08:19 <GregorR-L> Many wikis are tied to a database, that's their problem.
21:08:20 <kipple> yes. otherwise it looks fine
21:08:57 <pgimeno> calamari: you said MoinMoin supports files, right?
21:10:18 <GregorR-L> To submit, or not to submit, that is the question. For is it nobler to have 5 under-supported projects or to ignore this desire and leave Giki behind?
21:10:48 <kipple> has anybody seen a spec of CDFG?
21:12:08 <pgimeno> GregorR-L: what about leaving it apart by now and take it again after you're done with a few projects?
21:12:56 <GregorR-L> Open Source Software projects never qualify as "done" really :P
21:13:46 <GregorR-L> PHPIM - RIP - It was curious, but totally worthless.
21:14:50 <pgimeno> the most esoteric thing I've done in PHP so far is an astrologic calculator
21:15:01 <GregorR-L> I think that's more esoteric than PHPIM ;)
21:15:34 <pgimeno> yeah, esoteric is a word that fits it pretty well :)
21:16:42 <pgimeno> (I'm not a believer in astrology, it was just to prove an astrologer that astrology doesn't work as he expected)
21:18:24 <GregorR-L> There's a "Check out PHPIM first-hand" link that still works there :P
21:19:07 <calamari> pgimeno: I don't remember talking about file uploads.. must've been someone else
21:19:39 <calamari> I thought we decided against MoinMoin because it was python
21:19:50 <GregorR-L> Well, no better one has really cropped up ;)
21:20:01 <calamari> if Moin! could be made to not look so dumb, I'd go for that
21:20:24 <GregorR-L> And it just has a template.html, so it's totally templatable.
21:20:32 <calamari> the boxes around links is just silly hehe
21:20:45 <calamari> try to make it look like wikipedia or moinmoin
21:20:58 <calamari> they both have nice interfaces
21:23:01 <pgimeno> calamari: so does moinmoin allow binary file uploading?
21:23:01 <GregorR-L> Hmm, Wikipedia foils Mozilla's save-page feature!
21:23:21 <calamari> pgimeno: no idea.. let me see :)
21:28:30 <GregorR-L> http://gregorr.homelinux.org/wiki/ < starting to look MediaWiki-ish
21:30:18 <GregorR-L> Well, I certainly am not saying that it's done ;)
21:30:25 <GregorR-L> I'm just showing you that it is indeed templatable.
21:30:51 <pgimeno> yeah, that's what I mean (please be patient with me, remember that English is not my first language)
21:31:09 <calamari> pgimeno: MoinMoin can do binary file uploading, but you must log in first
21:31:33 <pgimeno> no problem with that; I think that anonymous posts should be disallowed
21:32:15 <kipple> it's easier to get people to add content if they don't have to register. but for uploading it should be required!
21:32:53 * GregorR-L wonders why the ! was necessary after that sentence ;)
21:33:32 <kipple> because it is important!! ;)
21:34:04 <kipple> english is not my first language either....
21:34:11 <pgimeno> I'd be happy if we are enough registered editors as to maintain it; interested authors can see registration as a benefit in case they don't have a homepage
21:34:56 <pgimeno> I'm worried about spammers and vandals
21:35:44 <pgimeno> it should work as autonomously as possible without anyone's interaction
21:35:56 <kipple> I don't know how much of a problem that is. On wikipedia it happens, but this wiki will be pretty obscure
21:36:14 <calamari> here's how to do an upload.. kinda weird.. you put attachment:filename in the page, and then save the page, you'll then have a link to link which allows you to upload the file
21:36:17 <pgimeno> I think that most wikis suffer from spam
21:36:44 <kipple> then we should probably not allow anonymous editing
21:37:12 <calamari> pgimeno: a link.. dunno where "to a link" came from
21:37:14 <GregorR-L> Hmm, my Wiki! upload script forces the username before file name so you can't fake somebody elses files.
21:37:46 <pgimeno> calamari: it's enough by now to know that it's supported, thanks
21:37:48 <GregorR-L> Not sure why I started that sentence with "Hmm, "
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21:46:54 <GregorR-L> On further thought, there was no need for me to log out before walking downstairs.
21:49:16 <GregorR-L> Wiki! is so nice, but falls just short of its potential. Only a few minor changes are needed for it to be a really excellent SIMPLE Wiki.
21:50:39 <pgimeno> off-topic, GregorR-L: how many domains do you use?
21:51:55 <GregorR-L> www.codu.org is my low-powered home page, gregorr.homelinux.org is my home computer that I'm not even allowed to host on, www.imdirect.net is DirectNet's home page and www.reclaimidentity.com is a school project.
21:52:36 <GregorR-L> Oh, codu.t35.com was my old home page, but the host got all advertizy so I decided to get a for-pay one.
21:53:33 <pgimeno> you're not allowed to host on your home computer? eek
21:54:35 <pgimeno> what kind of connection is that?
21:55:14 <pgimeno> what speed? (just curious)
21:55:48 <GregorR-L> Something I should know off the top of my head ...
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22:09:31 <pgimeno> the artist behind cfdg is you, right?
22:11:54 <pgimeno> in that case thanks for the link, it looks very pretty :)
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22:13:56 <pgimeno> btw, is there someone here who is NOT in the 'lang' ML?
22:14:29 <pgimeno> it's for discussing the esolang preservation project
22:15:10 <pgimeno> the question is related to which of the three lists should the message be sent, as I'm just in 'lang'
22:15:58 <pgimeno> maybe I'm wrong and they are just two
22:16:21 <pgimeno> I somehow understood that there were three
22:18:28 <andreou> i thought you meant the lang 'ML', as in OcaML
22:18:42 <andreou> some of my addresses might still be
22:18:42 <pgimeno> oh, sorry, I meant ML as in mailing list
22:19:34 <pgimeno> you're welcome to participate if any of these addresses is :)
22:21:17 <kipple> WOW! I haven't seen this before: http://www.nada.kth.se/~matslina/awib/
22:23:45 <andreou> pgimeno what's the url for the list manager?
22:25:09 <kipple> andreou: you mean for the lang list?
22:25:43 <kipple> subscribe lang to listar@esoteric.sange.fi
22:26:16 <andreou> lang, sci and misc, right?
22:26:54 <kipple> don't know about sci and misc...
22:27:17 <pgimeno> misc was the other one, yeah
22:27:40 <pgimeno> but lang seems more appropriate
22:28:15 <pgimeno> I didn't know about sci either; the third one I meant was Friends of Brainfuck
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22:41:13 <pgimeno> may I make changes to the wiki to get a feeling of how it works?
22:41:44 <pgimeno> do I need to be registered?
22:42:12 <GregorR-L> I don't think so, lemme check the config.
22:42:51 <GregorR-L> [wiki links go in square brackets]
22:44:36 <pgimeno> what's the "track revision" checkbox? I thought that all revisions would be tracked
22:46:11 <GregorR-L> It just changes whether the revision is displayed on the page.
22:47:30 * GregorR-L is still working on the unnecessarily-secure password setup.
22:50:41 <pgimeno> it seems to track only the last three changes
22:53:12 <pgimeno> hehe, it messes up the JS code
22:53:47 <GregorR-L> The page only shows the last three changes.
22:54:00 <GregorR-L> That's just a display thing, it has nothing to do with its actual history.
22:58:18 <pgimeno> there's a potential problem with the markup, namely the conversion of < to < and > to > which some authors may forget (even in Micro$oft's pages I've seen code forgetting them)
22:58:31 <pgimeno> plus the usage of [] for code
22:58:56 <pgimeno> the latter can be avoided in the PHP code by skipping <pre> sections
22:59:54 <pgimeno> the former will probably happen also in the other wikis
23:02:58 <GregorR-L> The latter is simple to skip, no prob.
23:03:16 <GregorR-L> So long as I'm going in full-hog anyway :P
23:04:07 <pgimeno> MediaWiki allows HTML; probably MoinMoin does as well
23:05:01 <pgimeno> no big deal; just BF programmers will have to be careful when moving the data pointer around
23:08:05 <GregorR-L> New security measures are working.
23:08:35 <pgimeno> does it time out or something?
23:08:55 <GregorR-L> No, but I could make it do so when I think about it ...
23:09:07 <GregorR-L> I had it disappear when you logged out.
23:09:25 <pgimeno> a server-side timestamp, I suppose
23:09:38 <pgimeno> I always forget to log out :P
23:09:47 <GregorR-L> The local cookie times out, which forces a new key upon new login.
23:09:58 <pgimeno> oh, by the way, I think this will be a simple find-and-replace change: could you please make <br> add a \n at the end?
23:12:05 <pgimeno> the HTML code sticks everything in a single line, making browsing the source a bit awkward
23:12:31 <GregorR-L> OH, that's how it screws up javascript!
23:18:23 <pgimeno> well, the JS code suffers from <br> invasion
23:19:36 <pgimeno> on edit it converted the < to <
23:20:09 <GregorR-L> Ooh, seriously? That's bizarre ... I wonder why it did that ......
23:20:22 <GregorR-L> Hmmmmm, maybe something about textareas?
23:20:41 <pgimeno> no idea but yes I'm serious
23:22:59 <pgimeno> grr, there's a caveat with <br>\n: the <pre> sections are also broken by <br> so if instead of <br> there's <br>\n then two line breaks will be inserted
23:24:02 <pgimeno> the <pre> sections are also broken... --> within the <pre> sections lines are also broken...
23:32:35 <GregorR-L> Now it handles <pre>s beautifully :)
23:34:25 <GregorR-L> Now if only I could remember basic javascript ...
23:34:52 <GregorR-L> Document.out.println or something?
23:35:21 <pgimeno> document.write is what you look for?
23:35:50 <pgimeno> + "\n" if it has to end a line
23:36:39 <pgimeno> hum, maybe it's cached somewhere in between
23:36:51 <pgimeno> do you mean it no longer inserts <br>?
23:39:30 <pgimeno> the message to the list will not be ready tonight, sorry :(
23:39:53 <kipple> no problem. it's not that urgent...
23:43:37 <pgimeno> my main concern is the Wikipedia contents, maybe CXI can clarify something about when an action would be carried out
23:44:15 <kipple> is it about to be deleted?
23:47:09 <pgimeno> I suppose that it will deleted at some point except for the most relevant languages, but I don't know how close is that point
23:47:55 <pgimeno> apparently CXI joined here because of a need of dealing with that
23:52:56 <pgimeno> I recall having seen somewhere in Wikipedia a proposal for deletion of... was it 74 entries?
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23:55:01 <kipple> but wasn't that a long time ago, and voted down?
23:55:09 <kipple> or has it happened again?
23:57:51 <pgimeno> I'm not very up-to-date, sorry :)
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