00:06:58 <calamari> lol.. autocomplete gave away my laziness :)
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05:36:21 <GregorR> Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, squid.
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06:09:27 <calamari> hi pgimeno, how's it going? :)
06:09:53 <pgimeno> fine, except that a mosquito woke me up earlier than I wish
06:10:08 <pgimeno> have you been away or something?
06:10:18 <calamari> where do you live? no mosquitos in Tucson, AZ right now :)
06:10:51 <calamari> pgimeno: yeah, I walked into the kitchen and the room was full of gas.. had to get off to call maintenance
06:11:47 <calamari> yeah.. I'm not very familiar with gas stoves yet.. I've had electric all my life
06:12:34 <pgimeno> I've tried esoshell but even 'help' fails to work... I don't know what happens
06:21:46 <calamari> I wonder if I can write a Java 1.1 version of the applet... I should try it
06:40:29 <calamari> cool, got a test button working in AWT.. now on the rest of the application :)
06:40:53 <GregorR> Ah, good ooooooooooooooool' AWT
06:42:10 <calamari> especially the ooooooooool' part ;)
06:42:19 <GregorR> Hence the preponderance of 'o's ;)
06:43:50 <pgimeno> this is java 1.4, for the record
06:44:26 <GregorR> I'm running Java pre-alpha 0.1, will it work for me?
06:47:41 <GregorR> SO, who wants to form the #esoteric chat room on DirectNet? 8-D
06:54:28 <GregorR> No, I'm just trying to get users :'(
06:55:37 <GregorR> It's my instant messaging and chat system (shameless plug points +1)
07:23:41 * calamari attempts to remove a duplicate set of unwanted scrollbars
07:33:55 <lindi-> calamari: btw, a tricky keyevent bug has been fixed in gnu classpath and now esoshell can be used with it
07:34:16 <lindi-> there's still some repaint problem though, but it does not render it unusable
07:37:15 <calamari> 'll be able to restrict the cursor w/ AWT.. but I'm trying
07:43:39 <calamari> lindi-: the applet does not seem to work at all with IE.. I'm hoping now it will
07:44:28 <calamari> also, I want to try to get it working for pgimeno
07:53:40 <calamari> hmm, I don't get it.. still doesn't work in IE
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08:13:14 <calamari> well, it's running in IE, kinda
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08:22:29 <lindi-> i have no idea what pgimeno is
08:24:42 <calamari> lindi-: pgimeno is a guy that hangs out in here :)
08:25:14 <pgimeno> thanks for the effort, calamari
08:25:38 <calamari> pgimeno: try this (I'm very curious) http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/EsoShell-AWT/
08:26:00 <calamari> It looks terrible and doesn't work right.. but maybe it'll load?
08:27:10 <pgimeno> it does load indeed and it looks terrible indeed ;)
08:28:11 <calamari> you have to click where the cursor should be :)
08:31:30 <calamari> StringBuffer didn't have a delete method until Java 1.2.. lol
08:32:08 <calamari> I bet there are plenty of these little 1.2+ bugs hiding everywhere
08:34:24 <calamari> pgimeno: IE doesn't seem to like it unless it's 1.1 or below
08:35:09 <calamari> maybe iut's the way I'm compiling it
08:35:55 <pgimeno> hm, I see, IE does not load anything
08:37:30 <pgimeno> okay, now they work in reverse: EsoShell/ works in IE while EsoShell-AWT does not (IE 6.0.2600.0000.whatever, Java 1.4.2_06)
08:41:54 <pgimeno> snapshot: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoshell.png
08:42:31 <pgimeno> the truncation is there in the original
08:46:56 <calamari> yeah thats the awt version.. I didn't bother fixing the size yet
08:48:24 <calamari> what I'm trying to find out is whether I can actually run 1.2+ functions in IE.. I have Java1.4 installed so the answer should be yes
08:49:11 <calamari> if so, then I can probably use the original Swing stuff
08:53:08 <calamari> there are lots of awt bugs right now
08:53:52 <pgimeno> "write once, run everywhere"... ha
09:00:49 <lindi-> pgimeno: sure, just use gnu classpath :)
09:05:07 <calamari> I think I found my problem, at least.. it may be using Microsoft Java and not Sun
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09:10:07 <calamari> lindi-: gcj must have come a long way since the last time I used it if it can run Swing apps now
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09:47:30 <calamari> cool.. my Java install was broken.. even http://kidsquid.com/EsoShell works in IE6 now.. boy is Sun Java slow compared to the Microsoft JIT.. took about 10 minutes to load the applet in qemu
09:50:24 <pgimeno> I guess MS preloads stuff to create the illusion that it loads faster
09:51:19 <fizzie> This box has Sun's jdk-1.5/5.0/whatever, and it loads in a ~second.
09:51:41 <lament> man, google maps is so awesome
09:51:47 <calamari> pgimeno: or it's so old that it only can use java 1.1 ;)
09:52:12 <calamari> fizzie: yeah, same with my linux machine.. it's only slow in the emulator
09:53:42 <calamari> pgimeno: any idea how to add the applet to the wiki?
09:53:54 <fizzie> lament; it seems to lack this thing called Europe.
09:54:30 <pgimeno> hmm, I'm not sure that's possible directly
09:54:38 <lament> yeah, but i'm in america
09:54:55 <lament> but it's just so completely amazing
09:55:19 <lament> you can switch to satellite view and get from anywhere to anywhere by scrolling the thing
09:55:50 <lament> the quality gets very shitty outside populated areas though :(
09:56:35 <pgimeno> calamari: try asking graue
09:57:59 <lament> http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=46.197510,-122.187195&spn=0.212173,0.276031&t=k&hl=en
09:58:11 <pgimeno> for spain we have http://sigpac.mapa.es/fega/visor/
09:59:48 <lament> oh man los angeles is fucking HUGE
10:00:25 <calamari> pgimeno: oh that's right.. hafta beg to upload files, don't I? hehe
10:01:08 <pgimeno> well, you can get svn write permissions but that's not a wiki page by itself
10:01:38 <lament> http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=46.197510,-122.187195&spn=0.212173,0.276031&t=k&hl=en
10:02:23 <lament> http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=51.208649,-73.164825&spn=0.848694,1.104126&t=k&hl=en
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10:12:12 <DMM> I read about Homespring for the first time today. Wow... that just blew me away :-)
10:14:16 <pgimeno> we've been wondering which of npiet or the perl interpreter is more correct according to the piet specs
10:15:07 <DMM> oh... I haven't looked at them myself. What's the difference?
10:16:52 <pgimeno> please see http://www.bertnase.de/npiet/picture.html
10:18:00 <lament> DMM: graue is afraid to use your fibonacci program as the logo
10:18:09 <lament> DMM: because the npiet page says it has a bug and doesn't work
10:18:27 <lament> (the page pgimeno just gave a link to)
10:18:34 <DMM> I intended the npiet behaviour of sliding in a straight line
10:19:11 <DMM> hmmm, there may be a bug :-(
10:19:23 <DMM> It's hard to code in when you don't have an interpreter :-)
10:20:26 <lament> so you never actually checked the program?
10:21:21 <DMM> not with an interpreter. There was none when I wrote them. I traced them by hand.
10:23:07 <DMM> it might just need a black codel instead of the white one above the yellow block
10:29:27 <pgimeno> I've just tried that and it prints 112 and exits
10:29:40 <lament> does Prelude qualify as a turing tarpit?
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10:30:04 <lament> it has 19 instructions
10:30:09 <lament> ten of which push numbers 0..9
10:30:16 <DMM> pgimeno: please feel free to debug it properly :-)
10:31:49 <DMM> 112 implies it's traversing the loop once and then falling out
10:32:31 <DMM> might need changing of the yellow codel below the blue loop entry point to another colour
10:37:15 <DMM> I just like making the languages... actually coding in them isn't nearly as much fun. :-)
10:39:07 <DMM> I have some cool ideas for more non-textual languages
10:39:45 <DMM> I'm kind of surprised that Piet seems to be the first one
10:40:37 <pgimeno> I'd like to see a graphical language with graphical output
10:40:42 <DMM> I want to do a Tetris-based one, where you drop different blocks into a well, and when the rows disappear, the configuration of colours in the row causes operations to occur
10:41:09 <lament> there're non-textual languages
10:41:22 <lament> aardappel made a bunch i believe
10:42:42 <pgimeno> a Tetris-based lang could be NP-complete to code in :)
10:45:11 <DMM> indeed he has. A lot of tree-based ones though...
10:46:47 <pgimeno> reference for Tetris NP-completeness: http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~edemaine/papers/Tetris_TR2002/
10:49:56 * lament creates http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Popular_problem
10:50:06 <lament> not sure if the article name is any good
10:53:26 <DMM> good article. Yeah, there's no obvious name for it
10:55:17 * DMM ponders a quine in Piet...
10:55:57 <lament> you never specify the format of input
10:56:30 <lament> it's "any lossless graphics format", pretty much?
10:56:31 <DMM> numbers or characters :-)
10:56:41 <DMM> oh, that... yeah, basically
10:57:10 <lament> i'm actually working (sort of) on a language where source code is polyphonic music
10:57:24 <DMM> although ideally it's really just the colours. The encoding into a graphics format is just a way of representing the program, not the program itself. :_)
10:57:42 <lament> i'm so confused as to what format i would use that i doubt i'll ever implement it
10:57:54 <DMM> oooh... I thought of a music-based language just yesterday. But I guess I'll let you do it first :-)
10:57:55 <lament> i'll just write programs and play them on the piano :)
10:58:06 <lament> well, i already have one as it happens :)
10:58:20 <DMM> documented?
10:58:21 <lament> just not sure if it's good enough
10:58:27 <lament> have a look at Prelude
10:58:40 <lament> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Prelude
10:58:53 <lament> Fugue will be the same, except with different intervals corresponding to different instructions
10:59:06 <lament> each "voice" is indeed a separate voice
10:59:10 <lament> note duration doesn't matter
10:59:47 <DMM> interesting
11:03:50 <DMM> I was thinking of a language based on actual music. Where the note, duration, key, time signature, etc are important
11:04:06 <DMM> you'd write it on a stave
11:04:24 <lament> well, there's no reason to have EVERYTHING be important
11:04:34 <DMM> well no...
11:05:05 <lament> Fugue you write on a stave. But the only thing that matters are the intervals (and the number of voices)
11:06:18 <lament> music notation is just way too packed with different kinds of info
11:06:22 <puzzlet> wow, now you got the complete spec?
11:06:59 <lament> i can just tell you the provisional list of intervals
11:07:23 <lament> i'm just afraid my provisional list sucks
11:13:52 * puzzlet is trying to learn Prelude
11:14:47 <DMM> I got some TV to watch... later guys
11:15:10 <puzzlet> lament: about ^ and v, does it pop the top value from current voice?
11:15:21 <lament> it doesn't pop anything at all
11:15:26 -!- DMM has left (?).
11:15:42 <puzzlet> only ! and # would pop the top value?
11:17:26 <pgimeno> my thinking about a music-based language is that only note increases/decreases count as instructions; that allows for maximum expressiveness IMO
11:17:42 <lament> That's how Fugue will work.
11:18:01 <lament> I should just release the damn spec actually.
11:18:05 <puzzlet> i like the () idea, looks like a pair of repeat bars
11:18:14 <lament> In fact, how about I do that.
11:19:19 <puzzlet> what is your plan to notate down the music into a file?
11:19:38 <lament> I'm not planning to implement Fugue :)
11:20:33 <puzzlet> i wish to write a meta-code, which itself is a true fugue..
11:21:48 <puzzlet> if Fugue code is written on midi, midi format doesn't have repeat bars.
11:22:18 <pgimeno> why not write an implementation? just write a Fourier analyzer to interpret the sound coming to the soundcard; you could even whistle the programs
11:22:38 <lament> puzzlet: actually repeating a sound when the program is in a loop is kinda silly.
11:22:56 <lament> pgimeno: you can't very well whistle three-part polyphony
11:23:25 <pgimeno> with the help of two other guys, you can :)
11:23:26 <puzzlet> that's why we should do a pair programming
11:24:37 <pgimeno> programming in pairs is part of the "xtreme programming" philosophy
11:25:37 <pgimeno> so, instead of handing the keyboard one to the other, they could both whistle at the same time
11:26:05 <pgimeno> that can increase the production of code
11:31:56 <fizzie> I guess I should implement the rest of my Prelude Befunge interpreter.
11:33:02 <lament> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Fugue
11:43:12 <pgimeno> though it needs too much information in my opinion
11:43:44 <pgimeno> imagine the BF quine that starts with a lot of +++++++>++++>++++++++...
11:45:18 <lament> note that ++++++++ is just three notes in Fugue
11:46:01 <lament> any third and an ascending minor sixth
11:46:01 <pgimeno> I was thinking in the line of "note increment wrt the last" = 1; "note decrement wrt the last" = 0; "same note" = "repeat last symbol", and a minimalistic two-symbol language like whirl, iota or jot
11:46:44 <pgimeno> might work but notes would soon go out of range
11:47:07 <lament> no, because you can always correct
11:47:14 <lament> by pushing a number and popping it
11:47:32 <lament> i.e. any third + any interval whatever + repeat last note
11:48:01 <pgimeno> you've forgotten to include it in the main list, btw
11:48:47 <lament> do we really need both the main list and category:language
11:49:25 <lament> Fugue is definitely harder to write nice-sounding music in than a language like you proposed
11:49:44 <pgimeno> my idea was that the main list hold short one-line descriptions of each language
11:49:52 <lament> but who ever sad writing music should be easy :)
11:50:35 <pgimeno> I remember someone saying that most songs can be distinguished by coding the increments/decrements of notes in them
11:51:12 <pgimeno> that's what suggested me the idea
11:54:42 <puzzlet> lament, how do you define ' ' in Fugue?
11:55:34 <puzzlet> then do note lengths matter?
11:56:06 <lament> only in that they establish what comes before what.
11:56:15 <lament> (or simultaneously with)
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12:52:12 <puzzlet> it's confusing when there are + and - signs all over what others say.
12:52:21 <puzzlet> [20:52:15] <Keymaker> -[-]
12:52:42 <Keymaker> w+h-a-t ++do +y-ou+ ++me-a+n++?
12:54:01 <puzzlet> it seems it's server's problem
12:54:53 <puzzlet> i see + and - signs everwhere in freenode, and even ACTION's don't look as what they should look.
12:56:24 <pgimeno> I think it must be because of your IRC client
12:56:56 <puzzlet> i use irssi. i checked rawlog, but there are the signs there too
12:57:49 <puzzlet> and it just came out to happen yesterday when i restarted the client. no changes to configuration
13:05:51 <fizzie> Uh, strange. I don't see any +s.
13:28:14 <Keymaker> anyone know where i could find this file pygame-1.6.win32-py2.4.exe (windows pygame)?
13:28:19 <Keymaker> can't download from official site
13:30:03 <fizzie> Well, http://www.willmcgugan.com/pygame-1.6.win32-py2.4.exe for example.
13:31:05 <Keymaker> google? is that some new search engine?
13:31:53 <puzzlet> Keymaker, you must be kidding
13:34:02 <Keymaker> never heard of any google before
13:47:36 <GregorR> Since Keymaker just found the internet yesterday ;)
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15:52:23 <Keymaker> kipple: seen movie "hawaii, oslo"
15:54:39 <kipple> why? are you gonna watch it?
15:55:04 <Keymaker> i just thought because it starts screening here and there reads it was huge success in norway
15:55:42 <kipple> it was a bit overrated IMHO. It got extremely good reviews here
15:56:56 <Keymaker> or should i perhaps go to see "white noise"?
15:57:13 <kipple> don't know anything about that one
16:01:37 <Keymaker> movies just tend to be clich today because everything's done before
16:21:16 <Keymaker> ok.. i'll go to see movie "hostage"
16:31:51 * sp3tt_ wrote a 4 page PDF on brainfuck >.<
16:36:40 <Keymaker> upload it somewhere, i'd like to read it later when it get back home
16:37:24 <Keymaker> (i need to leave now because i booked the movie ticket from web so i need to get it before 19:30)
16:37:33 <pgimeno> doh, Piet is troublesome in that inserting or removing an instruction means changing the whole program
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16:38:23 <pgimeno> that's the issue of incremental instructions
16:39:49 <pgimeno> it's easier to write a new program than to modify an existing one
16:40:33 <pgimeno> I wanted to fix the fibonacci Piet program but I think that writing another one will be easier
16:41:41 <pgimeno> I think that one which prints "ESOTERIC" will be OK to be used as a logo
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17:33:19 <pgimeno> this Piet program prints "ESO": http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/eso-big.png
17:35:54 <pgimeno> I'm sorry, I'm not much of an artist
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22:11:34 <calamari> hey lament, wooby.. what's new & exciting?
22:12:07 <wooby> not much, working through a bison tutorial with the ultimate hope of fashioning a BF compiler
22:13:12 <calamari> something you invent, or c-like?
22:13:53 <wooby> what do you mean by hll?
22:14:05 <wooby> i'm at the very start of this tutorial, you see :)
22:14:16 <lament> calamari: i'm guessing he wants to compile brainfuck
22:14:20 <calamari> maybe I misunderstand what you're trying to do
22:15:14 <calamari> my usual fun is compiling to bf, so I get easily confused :)
22:15:35 <wooby> lol i know what you mean, i'm interested in that too :)
22:15:47 <wooby> how about you, what's new and great
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22:19:01 <calamari> wooby: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/BF_instruction_minimalization
22:19:38 <calamari> wooby: I think that last step still needs a bit of work, though :) I'd like a way to modify every bit, not just every other
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22:22:24 <wooby> hm, that's fascinating
22:22:50 <Keymaker> i don't remember if i have mentioned that before, i saw that link yesterday
22:23:24 <calamari> Keymaker: thanks.. but I haven't really progressed much past BitChanger of a few years ago
22:25:33 <Keymaker> but that's really good achievement too
22:26:43 <calamari> I'm not sure that it's turing complete yet
22:28:11 <calamari> for example (}()) should be like [-]<.. but it only gets it by luck
22:36:23 <calamari> actually it'd be (()}) wouldn't it
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23:18:35 <Keymaker> and btw, "hostage" was very good movie
23:26:11 <calamari> graue: I'd really like to integrate EsoShell into the wiki. Would you like to work on it with me?
23:26:49 <graue> i'd rather not have executable code running out of the wiki
23:26:56 <graue> it's for information, not running programs
23:27:51 <calamari> graue: your vision of the wiki is a bit narrower than I'd hoped for
23:28:28 <calamari> I'm halfway wondering if you'll be pulling up those in-progress pages at any moment
23:30:29 <calamari> now I realize it's your wiki, you're running it, and all that.. which I appreciate.. but perhaps if you're going to stifle the expressive purposes of the wiki we need to abandon your stranglehold and start a new wiki elsewhere
23:31:20 <kipple> calamari: how exactly were you thinking of integrating the esoshell into the wiki?
23:32:05 <calamari> kipple: when all this wiki talk started up again, it was suggested that it'd be cool to be able to experimentally test esolangs from the wiki
23:32:24 <kipple> yeah, I know. I think it was me who suggested it...
23:32:39 <graue> add a prominent external link then
23:32:56 <kipple> you could put it in the files archive and link to it from the wiki.
23:34:00 <malaprop> Speaking of wiki and files, what's the word on scheduled dumps?
23:35:10 <graue> help me out, how do i dump a mysql database from the command line?
23:35:40 <wooby> there's a program called mysqldump
23:35:56 <malaprop> mysqldump -a -c -C-e --add-drop-table --delayed-insert -Q -u (username) -p(password) -h (host) (db-name)
23:36:10 <malaprop> er, there should be a space between -C and -e
23:36:26 <malaprop> and probably tag onto the end > filename
23:37:12 <malaprop> kipple: or bzip2 as it deals better with text
23:37:27 <lament> doesn't bzip2 deal better with everything, not just text?
23:37:47 <graue> bzip2 deals especially better with text
23:38:04 <malaprop> lament: I don't know, I haven't done or seen good research.
23:38:19 <kipple> would be nice if the images directory is included in the zip as well
23:38:52 <graue> or you could just download the one and only image from commons.wikimedia.org if anything happens
23:39:47 <kipple> yes, but hopefully there will be more eventually...
23:40:25 <graue> then hopefully i can archive the images directory too, eventually
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23:45:24 <graue> i'm getting an error 1044, access denied... when using LOCK TABLES
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23:47:49 <calamari> graue: so you're saying that you're not going to host the files or the html to run them?
23:48:38 <graue_> no, i'm not saying that; they could go in the files archive, or in a new area
23:48:53 <graue_> i am saying they should not be part of the wiki
23:49:41 <graue_> because java applets are a huge can of worms
23:50:08 <graue_> i for one will not be able to use them; they'll freeze my windows 98 box, and on gnu/linux they'll give me ugly messages about installing nonfree plugins
23:50:20 <graue_> it's silly to junk up a page like that, when the point is information
23:50:34 <calamari> the applet wouldn't be on every page
23:50:53 <malaprop> graue_: sounds like your db user doesn't have access rights to lock the db tables
23:51:13 <kipple> but why not have that page in the files archive?
23:51:29 <calamari> kipple: how does that work? you need html to run the applet
23:51:46 <kipple> the files archive is accessible with HTTP
23:51:51 <calamari> so if it's just a file it can't be run
23:52:03 <calamari> it defeats the purpose of being an applet
23:52:09 <kipple> you just put both the HTML file and the JAR in the archive
23:52:57 <calamari> whouldn't it look nicer to have the wiki framework around it?
23:53:17 <graue_> no, it would not look nicer to make the wiki display missing plugin messages and/or freeze my browser
23:53:47 <calamari> graue: umm.. java doesn't freeze my browser.. fix your browser then
23:54:20 <graue_> well, that's constructive
23:54:24 <malaprop> calamari: He's using IE, can't fix.
23:54:43 <kipple> the applet would have to be on a page of it's own anyway, so people who don't want to run applets can just avoid that page
23:54:44 <graue_> the machine is a pentium 2, it's old and slow
23:55:19 <graue_> the point is my old, slow, broken computer can still access the wiki, because the wiki is just text, just information
23:55:28 <kipple> but then again, that would not be much different from an external page
23:55:29 <calamari> and you'd be able to edit it just like any other wiki page, to add content about ysing the program
23:55:48 <graue_> so add that content to the EsoShell article
23:56:00 <graue_> the instructions and program shouldn't be on the same page
23:56:34 * calamari had so many plans for this.. so frustrating to be blocked by ignorance
23:56:47 <kipple> it's very nice to have instructions on the same page, so you can simply scroll down when you need to look at them
23:56:58 <graue_> using an external page is not a blockade
23:57:30 <calamari> here's an idea.. don't go to the EsoShell wiki page ;)
23:57:39 <graue_> what if i want to read about it?
23:57:57 <graue_> what page do i go to to just read about it?
23:58:30 <graue_> which you just told me not to go to
23:58:37 <calamari> it'd be nicer to have separate pages for different languages
23:58:51 <graue_> it's not that hard: files archive (and hypothetical other sections of site) = stuff, wiki = descriptions of stuff
23:59:01 <calamari> for exmaple, a page full of bf programs to copy and paste in while running the applet
23:59:11 <graue_> then i encourage you to add a link at the bottom of each language, pointing to the convenient interpreter for that language
23:59:49 <calamari> graue: you still haven't said what is so wrong about allowing a Java applet directly on the wiki