00:00:01 <kipple> umm. I think he has...
00:00:19 <calamari> he has told me how he has a slow computer.. that's about it
00:02:20 <calamari> when I have time, I'll start a new wiki that is more user friendly
00:17:27 <graue> ok, let's try this again
00:17:36 <graue> there is "stuff", and there is "info about stuff"
00:17:58 <graue> a program is "stuff"
00:18:15 <graue> the wiki is for "info about stuff"
00:18:18 <malaprop> Is an example program stuff or info about stuff?
00:18:57 <malaprop> And I'll note that I don't see any reason the wiki can't also store "stuff".
00:19:29 <graue> the reason is that "stuff" can crash your computer, or require a certain operating system, or eat up your RAM
00:19:35 <graue> "info about stuff" is just information
00:19:50 <graue> my slow computer is one of many possible examples of why mixing "stuff" and "info about stuff" is a bad idea
00:20:18 <graue> i am quite happy to store relevant "stuff" on esoteric.voxelperfect.net, if people are interested in having it there
00:20:22 <malaprop> If you don't want "stuff", don't download it. If your web browser lets websites crash your computer, it is broken, period, and should not be used as the baseline for everthing.
00:20:54 <graue> i don't think websites should have programs in them at all
00:21:23 <graue> does that mean every website with a java applet is broken, period? or is my opinion NOT the final say on what is or isn't broken?
00:21:38 <malaprop> Looking at the existence of Flash, I've got to say that almost every else in the world disagrees with you on that one.
00:22:27 <graue> that's exactly my point
00:22:54 <graue> your opinion that my "broken" web browser should not be accommodated is not law, either
00:23:15 <malaprop> Your opinion on what is broken is invalid because you're not seeing that it's your browser that's broken. It's like the ethnic joke where the guy goes to the doctor and says "My leg hurts when I poke it, my chest hurts when I poke it, my head hurts when I poke it" and the doctor responds "Your finger is broken."
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00:24:05 <malaprop> I'm not trying to be mean or insulting, just point out that web apps are not uncommon or inherently bad.
00:27:15 <graue> that doesn't change the fact that they don't belong on a wiki
00:27:30 <graue> there is nothing hard about the concept of separating content from information about that content
00:27:41 <kipple> that's not a "fact", that's your opinion...
00:27:52 <malaprop> They do belong on a wiki, the wiki has file support for just that reason.
00:28:08 <graue> the wiki has file support to store images
00:28:59 <calamari> graue: why does the esoteric wiki have to fit into the "normal" wiki.. we're supposed to be out there, right? :)
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00:29:09 <malaprop> Dividing data and metadata is arbitrary. If you're providing both, provide them together.
00:29:47 <malaprop> And MediaWiki does not have file support just for images; otherwise it would not be possible to upload anything but images.
00:29:59 <calamari> that said, I can understand graue's reluctance to change his wiki.. he started that wiki before we all got together and started decided things.. so it isn't quite fair to ask him to change what was already there
00:30:43 <malaprop> I disagree. I'm asking because I see straightforward ways to make things better. Is very much in the wiki spirit.
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00:32:45 <calamari> malaprop: I think graue has his own ideas about how a wiki should be run, and doesn't want to change those to fit what the rest of us would like.. that's totally his choice tho. That's why I think it might be best to choose to start fresh
00:33:20 <malaprop> I'd rather build up than start again from scratch. It's why I'm such a pain in the ass.
00:33:52 <kipple> please, let us not end up with two competing wikis!
00:34:40 <malaprop> And on that note, I unfortunately have to go. I may be online again in a few hours or it'll be tomorrow morning (~13h).
00:42:46 <graue> having to put something one mouseclick away is a very stupid thing to fork a wiki over
00:44:13 <calamari> graue: I don't see it that way, exactly.. this one item certainly isn't a dealbreaker. What gets me is how you do not seem to care about the opinion of the rest of the community.. we had a lot of plans that were made together, and you singlehandledly vetoed those plans when we decided to go with your server.
00:46:01 <calamari> graue: we were going to have file uploading, but you didn't want that, until we complained so loudly you couldn't ignore it.. this java applet thing was in the works pretty much from the very beginning=, we we're going to have multiple wikis, etc..
00:46:50 <calamari> which is totally fine for your own server.. hey you're the boss.. but I don't think you're being very cooperative
00:47:30 <calamari> and so, in the future, when something needs to be done.. I'm sure it will be the same way
00:47:57 <graue_> i have vetoed all of one plan, put forward by two people; there is no problem moving the java applet one mouseclick away; the multiple wikis idea was rejected with everyone's agreement because it wasn't practical; file uploading is a feature that was implemented separately from the wiki with everyone's agreement who happened to speak up
00:48:30 <graue_> you're blowing a lot of hot air and it's silly, just for one extra mouseclick people will have to make to get to your java program
00:49:24 <calamari> graue: I recall things differently
00:49:49 <calamari> everyone wanted to be able to uplaod files, only requiring a user account
00:50:15 <calamari> you were the only one that wanted all the sql beg you to upload file hoops
00:50:56 <lament> people of the world rise against graue's tyrannical rule
00:52:21 <calamari> lament: I see no problem letting him run his wiki the way he wants to
00:53:18 <calamari> I think we should have left it that way from the beginning.. it was a mistake, is all. His wiki predates the whole eso preservation thing
00:58:15 <graue_> i actually started my wiki to preserve esoteric languages
00:58:27 <graue_> it just took a while for people to become interested
01:25:24 <kipple> personally it took a backup solution to become interested. otherwise Wikipedia would have been better
01:26:41 <lament> i still think ftp would be the best
01:32:57 <graue_> you mean for the files, right?
02:04:11 <lament> i mean, we don't actually need a wiki.
02:11:58 <calamari> well, I've discovered the reason I can't get a file list for my applet's help program.. http doesn't support getting a file list.. hehe
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02:14:58 <graue_> but that probably isn't exactly practical
02:15:53 <calamari> yeah.. it'll have to be something like that
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02:23:54 <calamari> the built in commands don't change much, unless a new language is added
02:24:51 <calamari> it'd be cool to have some kind of programs page that it automatically loaded up, so you had a bunch of example programs to run. Would need to be a wiki though, otherwise content would be nonexistent
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02:28:21 <calamari> was just thinking about your idea
02:28:39 <calamari> it'll just need to be in one file
02:28:45 <wooby> what mechanism do you propose for referencing code?
02:29:09 <calamari> yeah.. have a certain wiki page, for say BF programs. Then, a program on the page would look something like
02:30:09 <calamari> then the program could parse the page to grab the programs
02:31:05 <calamari> I think you were hoping for something more interractive?
02:31:12 <wooby> i was thinking more along the lines of storing code fragments in a db table, with author, description, and usage information
02:31:31 <calamari> oic, so like a library of bf snippets?
02:32:00 <wooby> the problem is it would be so difficult to come up with a standard for handling return data
02:32:44 <calamari> it also wouldn't work well for languages such as Befunge that are two-dimensional
02:33:10 <wooby> i'm beginning to think it wouldn't work well in general
02:33:22 <calamari> but it's still a cool idea for a wiki page
02:33:38 <wooby> suppose you had a code fragment recognized by the interpreter as 1, which say... converts a cell value to ascii value
02:33:43 <calamari> could save your neatest bf tricks for posterity
02:33:53 <wooby> so you could do like +++1 => 3
02:34:17 <wooby> that would work cleanly because the return value is only a byte
02:36:44 <calamari> I wonder if I could rig file writing to automatically edit the wiki.. that'd be cool, permanent storage
02:37:23 <calamari> actually, just the close operation would want to write anything
02:38:01 <calamari> yeah.. it'd be cool.. because you could edit it yourself, or you could use the applet, and it's just plain text on the wiki page to view
02:39:45 <wooby> i'd imagine javascript to be conducive to interactive lang interpreting, at least for BF
02:39:51 <wooby> do you consider that an option?
02:47:32 <calamari> sorry.. was afk. java or javascript seem file.. both are client side though.. I chose Java because it was more powerful
02:53:15 <wooby> ha, just perusing the bfbasic readme
02:53:29 <wooby> 'randomize' would be an interesting function to implement
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03:38:49 <GregorR> Please mentally combine the n and ~ ;)
03:40:41 <GregorR> I suppose the fact that you're now logged in as graue_ instead of graue suggests that you didn't get my response in #directnet ?
03:40:54 <graue_> ah, nope, but i'll go see what it was
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03:42:33 <GregorR> #directnet just lost its peak user count ;)
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03:55:46 <graue> you know, i gotta say calamari's idea for loading programs from a wiki page is pretty cool
03:56:43 <graue> i wonder if it could be accommodated by creating a new namespace
03:57:12 <GregorR> Mind making a brief of the idea?
03:57:15 <graue> you'd go to "Brainfuck" and say "hey, this seems cool" and follow the esoshell link to the "EsoShell:Brainfuck" page with the programs and stuff
03:57:38 <graue> calamari has made a small fake shell program as a java applet, and it has esoteric language interpreters
03:57:46 <graue> the idea was so people could try new languages out conveniently
03:58:00 <graue> recently he mentioned loading languages automatically from a wiki page
03:58:16 <graue> like you could put a "99 bottles of beer" example in the "EsoShell:Brainfuck" wiki article (or whatever)
03:58:25 <graue> and the shell would be able to load it directly
03:58:31 <graue> that is my understanding
03:59:01 <graue> so, any idiot could add a cool program to test out
03:59:08 <GregorR> Why not have the wiki itse---because some would need input.
03:59:12 <GregorR> Yay answering my own question!
04:00:17 <graue> i wonder if calamari would go for the "EsoShell:" namespace idea
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04:00:44 <graue> we have been talking about you
04:01:00 <graue> please to read http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/05.06.09 and catch up on the discussion
04:01:28 <calamari> sorry.. was getting ready to go out.. gotta watch star wars again :)
04:01:40 <graue> well, check it out later then
04:01:55 <graue> short story: i think it would be cool if you did your java applet thing in a new namespace on the existing wiki
04:02:00 <graue> like, "EsoShell:Brainfuck" etc
04:04:02 <calamari> that sounds great.. I was actually wondering how to pull that off while in the shower hehe
04:04:39 <calamari> my previous idea of being able to edit old files from esoshell might cause problems.. but saving new ones should be okay
04:05:11 <calamari> dunno.. it all depends on what I can get the wiki to tell me
04:05:40 <calamari> I know in moin it would tell me when the page was locked and that I had a certain amount of time to make my edit
04:06:11 <calamari> the only thing I'm afraid of is that popluar things to run would be locked all the time
04:07:10 <graue> mediawiki doesn't lock anything; if you try to save an edit based on an out of date revision, it just tells you there's been a conflict
04:07:26 <calamari> does it allow you to resolve the conflict?
04:07:49 <graue> i'm not sure, exactly... i'd have to try it again, but i think it possibly does
04:08:37 <calamari> lets find out.. http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Calamari&action=edit
04:09:13 <calamari> someone do a quick edit and then I'll save mine
04:10:19 <calamari> it gives the new text in an upper text area
04:10:48 <graue> well, it works at least
04:11:11 <calamari> at least EsoShell can know that there was a conflict and work with it
04:11:28 <calamari> and it's good because people won't be ablke to lock others out
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04:26:18 <calamari> graue: as long as the page I'm reading is from the same base url as the applet, I can read it
04:26:55 <calamari> so, I could read http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj, even though the applet started from http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/EsoShell
04:27:06 <calamari> I could not, however, read http://www.google.com
04:27:54 <calamari> is that going to be an issue at all with what you had in mind for setup?
04:29:15 <calamari> actually.. even if it is, it's cool and I want to write it anyways.. hehe
04:31:56 <calamari> huh.. weird.. when I view source on the wiki, I don't get everything
04:33:03 <calamari> <div id='article'> how convienient!
04:34:36 <calamari> any thoughts on how to wrap the filename and source? need to think about 2d languages, whitespace.. etc :) gotta run
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07:42:14 <lament> esoshell page crashed firefox
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10:18:52 <Keymaker> i just went to bed for a while and slept ~11 hours
10:29:58 <pgimeno> hi, seems that I missed an important conversation about 8 hours ago
10:31:10 <pgimeno> lament: are you using multiple profiles simultaneously? my mozilla crashes if I don't open the java applet in the main profile
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10:42:13 <Keymaker> what was the conversation about?
10:43:14 <pgimeno> Keymaker: about esolangs and the wiki
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10:46:02 <pgimeno> I think that graue's idea of a separate namespace is a nice solution for everyone
10:48:42 <pgimeno> I personally like most of the current directions of the wiki, and given that a solution that is universally accepted is impossible, I think that that's about the best that we can have
10:49:00 <CXI> yeah, I think it's a neat idea
10:49:02 <pgimeno> except for the backups, but that's currently being worked on
10:52:46 <pgimeno> that said, there's an issue with the files section that needs a solution: some esolang authors may disagree with their distributions being hosted there, so permission should be gathered before posting files there (those which are explicitly FOSS don't need a permission, I think)
10:53:38 <pgimeno> that's about the only showstopper for the preservation effort
10:53:39 <CXI> though you'll want to tag them with whatever the correct license is
10:54:17 <pgimeno> isn't that usually included within the distribution?
10:54:31 <CXI> good point... maybe a generic tag that says "this file is not necessarily within the public domain"
10:55:55 <pgimeno> the script that gathers the svn head and makes it public could perhaps add such a tag
10:56:16 <pgimeno> with "makes it public" I mean in the files/ dir
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11:04:06 <pgimeno> one more issue about the "java on the wiki" (hope it can be sorted out): I don't like everyone being able to upload and use java applets in every page; that should be restricted to privileged users or something
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12:15:43 <kipple> pgimeno: I agree that java applets upload should be restricted
12:16:42 <kipple> otherwise, it seems like a lot happened here while I was asleep :) I like the ideas for the EsoShell that came up!
12:17:11 <sp3tt> You mean like... command.com?
12:18:30 <kipple> no, I mean this: http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/EsoShell/
12:42:12 <pgimeno> kipple: nice, seems that there's consensus after all
12:46:54 <pgimeno> yay, I've managed to fix the fibonacci generator in piet without modifying the whole program (white cells are cool)
12:48:19 <pgimeno> now it turns out that 100 Fibonacci numbers are too much for the range of an int
13:01:51 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/piet/fib.php
13:02:04 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/piet/fib2.php
13:07:23 <pgimeno> damn, the colors are not equal
13:08:05 <pgimeno> seen the page? when I compare the original and mine, I see different colors
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13:08:57 <kipple> yes, there are some minor differences. does it matter, as long as it works?
13:09:20 <pgimeno> not at all, but I'd like equal colors to match for proper comparison
13:09:35 <pgimeno> gAMA chunks don't alter the RGB of each color
13:19:06 <pgimeno> indeed, that was because of a gAMA chunk present in the original; now I've uploaded the fixed version
13:19:28 <pgimeno> corrected and resubnitted ;)
13:22:17 <kipple> so, what was the conclusion? is npiet implemented correctly?
13:25:33 <pgimeno> that's not actually related to the program itself; DMM said he didn't have an opportunity of testing it
13:25:43 <pgimeno> he wrote it without the help of an interpreter
13:27:00 <pgimeno> that program won't work in the perl interpreter because of the handling of white blocks though
13:27:06 <kipple> yes. that's a useful tool for checking if the language design is ok, before implementing it
13:27:26 <kipple> ok. so is the perl interpreter wrong then?
13:28:16 <pgimeno> I think so; the spec is pretty clear and even if there's a bit of room for reinterpretation I think it's too forced to interpret that in the way that the perl interpreter does
13:29:04 <pgimeno> anyway, fixing it is just a matter of adding a pixel :)
13:31:05 <pgimeno> hm, I'm wrong, it's two pixels
13:50:50 <pgimeno> that one should work with the perl interpreter too
13:54:05 <pgimeno> I'm not totally sure though
14:06:09 <pgimeno> the issue with npiet is that cells are 32-bit integers instead of bignums, so fibonacci numbers greater than the 45th one don't come out well
14:07:39 <pgimeno> without the aid of a library, that is
14:25:50 <fizzie> As far as I know, it doesn't. The bitwise operators use integers (32-bit here), and afaik most arithmetic is done using floats.
14:26:23 <fizzie> Judging from what 'man perlop' says about Integer Arithmetic.
14:27:44 <fizzie> Although Math::BigInt apparently is part of the standard.
14:46:16 <pgimeno> thanks; I don't know if the perl interpreter uses that
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16:27:27 <Keymaker> i'm too lazy to search information by myself
16:28:37 <puzzlet> i'm lazy too but i guess so
16:59:54 <pgimeno> at least if the stack is able to hold bignums
17:00:40 <puzzlet> And you have infinitely extendable canvases to paint
17:00:56 <pgimeno> that's not needed, I think
17:01:42 <pgimeno> as soon as you have a canvas with an UTM program in it, you have a Turing-complete language
17:04:22 <pgimeno> I would have said that it's a pushdown automaton, but I recently saw that BF just needs a few (5 at most, 2 at least) cells with arbitrary integers in them to be TC
17:04:36 <pgimeno> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck#Computational_class
17:05:26 <pgimeno> and the stack rotate operation makes Piet able to handle the stack as a finite amount of variables
17:05:41 <pgimeno> hm, that should be stated in the wiki
17:12:45 <Keymaker> the stuff in esowiki is interesting
17:13:09 <Keymaker> it'll be quite cool afterall! :)
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17:35:35 <Keymaker> lament: is that 'smallfuck to smetana' stuff anywhere?
17:35:42 <Keymaker> or have you written anything about it?
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17:54:16 <Keymaker> can one just edit the esolangs wiki?
17:54:49 <Keymaker> ok. i'll do so. after the dinner ;)
17:54:50 <kipple> it is nice if you create an account before editing, but not mandatory
17:58:53 <kipple> please avoid food stains on wiki articles
18:13:22 <Keymaker> by the way, is it allowed edit User:Keymaker page? :)
18:15:10 <kipple> you can edit practically any page (including other users' pages)
18:17:45 <Keymaker> but i meant that is it ok if edit it..
18:17:45 <Keymaker> that you people don't count it as self-advertising or anything
18:17:45 <Keymaker> (only linkin' two of my websites ;))
18:18:19 <kipple> that's what the user pages are for! don't expect that anyone else will edit it
18:20:08 <kipple> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Special:Listusers
18:20:08 <Keymaker> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/User:Keymaker
18:48:16 <calamari_> Keymaker: here is what you probably shouldn't do: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User:Calamari how's that for overdoing it? :)
18:51:05 <kipple> I think that is a nice user page.
18:51:13 <Keymaker> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Hello
18:51:54 <lament> Keymaker: http://z3.ca/~lament/smetana_sf.tar.z
18:51:59 <lament> Keymaker: http://z3.ca/~lament/smetana_sf.tar.gz
18:53:11 <kipple> Hah. Who needs Hello when we have HQ9+ ? ;)
18:54:40 <kipple> I just checked out Hello's home page and thought: "what? an esolang made by a woman? can it be?"
18:55:00 <kipple> yeah. just a guy named Anne
18:55:32 <Keymaker> too bad, i was almost contacting the person until i read that :)
18:55:43 <CXI> if I was nammed anne I'd make esolangs too
18:57:04 <lament> esolangs are an exclusively male activity
18:57:31 <kipple> well, most of you guys (okay, me too) have nicks which makes it impossible to know your gender, so maybe there are some women here as well... I've just assumed you're all male (probably very sexist of me)
18:58:28 <malaprop> kipple: Or you've been on IRC for more than ten minutes.
18:59:17 <kipple> "IRC. The place where men are men, women are men, and 16 year old girls are FBI agents"
18:59:35 <CXI> case in point
18:59:38 <CXI> efnet doesn't have women :P
18:59:53 <kipple> don't remember where that quote is from though
18:59:59 <Keymaker> either the way, we need females here.
19:02:15 <kipple> well, if there are any, I expect they pretend to be male.
19:02:35 <malaprop> Why pretend? Folks will assume just fine on their own.
19:13:52 <calamari_> so, I'm curious.. how can we display a whitespace program on the wiki without using images?
19:14:39 <calamari_> I could invent some kind of escape code, but that wouldn't work well for a 2-d whitespace, if there is ever such a thing
19:15:21 <lament> there even are women on Freenode
19:15:35 <lament> but to expect women in #esoteric is clearly a bit too much
19:16:56 <GregorR> It would be possible, but I don't think you ought to.
19:18:09 <kipple> Gregor: you are the only one here who explicitly identifies yourself as a male. Got something to hide??? ;)
19:18:29 * GregorR detaches his/her artifificial penis
19:18:45 <kipple> ah, you were talking about whitespace :)
19:19:08 <GregorR> cpressey is a known male :P
19:19:24 <calamari_> gregorR: I'd like to automatically feed programs from the wiki into esoshell.. but does the wiki allow arbitrary chars like that?
19:20:08 <calamari_> how about a mini preprocessor table at the top.. so that you could set a=" ", b="\n", etc
19:20:09 <GregorR> I don't know, I guess ... If there's some equiv. to <pre>, it should be happy.
19:20:11 <kipple> maybe there is some <PRE> equivalent?
19:20:23 <calamari_> maybe, that would definitely be best
19:21:31 <calamari_> anyone remember how to set expert mode in ircii?
19:22:03 <calamari_> I guess since I don't remember means I am non-expert.. so.. brb :)
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19:24:04 <Keymaker> this esolang wiki editing is fun
19:25:32 <graue> does it maintain TAB characters?
19:26:41 <kipple> see test here: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User:Rune
19:27:36 <kipple> you can't enter tabs directly in the editor (at least not in my browser), but pasting works fine
19:28:32 <lament> Keymaker: how exactly does the digital root thing work?
19:28:39 <lament> cause it doesn't do anything
19:30:42 <lament> you had DOS linebreaks
19:37:14 <lament> they were breaking the interpreter
19:37:21 <Keymaker> i used the ready-compiled dos interpreter
19:37:21 <lament> presumably it works in windows
19:37:29 <lament> i was using the python one
19:37:56 <Keymaker> iirc it was in original thue package
19:40:23 <kipple> anybody know if whitespace it TC?
19:40:28 <lament> it works after i changed the linebreaks
19:41:45 <lament> well, you can't expect any reasonable piece of software to recognize dos linebreaks :)
19:44:07 <kipple> but dos linebreaks include char #10, so it should work on most systems, no?
19:45:27 <malaprop> kipple: no, dos linebreaks will work on dos and on especially forgiving editors on real operating systems
19:46:01 <GregorR> But a whitespace nterpreter should read: \r - this must be a comment, ignore ... \n - line break
19:46:05 <GregorR> And hence work regardless.
19:46:25 <GregorR> (Well, unless you use MacOS <=9 linebreaks)
19:46:42 <kipple> did they change it in OS X ?
19:46:50 <GregorR> Yeah, it's UNIX linebreaks now.
19:47:07 <kipple> nice. If only MS would do the same
19:47:21 <GregorR> No, they're just going to make them longer :P
19:47:37 <malaprop> GregorR: neither 0xA or 0xD are named "line break". 0xD is Unix is carriage return. 0xA is line feed.
19:47:39 <GregorR> It'll be CR-LF-PageB-tab-tab-space-lf
19:48:19 <GregorR> malaprop: From a UNIX-centric whitespace nterpreters standpoint, \n = linebreak.
20:17:08 <Keymaker> i made a logo for esowiki, featuring esododo:
20:17:09 <Keymaker> http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/stuff/esolang.png
20:17:29 <Keymaker> (although the creature doesn't probably look like dodo)
20:17:32 <kipple> hey! the dodo is back :)
20:18:46 <Keymaker> i just thought it could be fun/look nice. i don't like that yellow flower so much
20:19:30 <malaprop> Keymaker: The yellow flower is the logo for MediaWiki.
20:19:35 <kipple> yeah. several people have been making logo suggestions. maybe we should have a contest
20:23:59 <kipple> pgimeno has been using piet programs
20:24:28 <kipple> I think he meant to use the fibonacci program, but the eso-program would be much better IMHO
20:24:55 <graue> kipple, i like your last spoof
20:25:15 <kipple> I made some spoofs of the wikimedia logo: http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/logos.html
20:25:26 <graue> yeah, and i like the fourth one
20:25:38 <kipple> yes, I've heard, graue :)
20:26:17 <kipple> there are a lot of variations that could be done with that theme...
20:26:29 <graue> why does the dodo face away from the page?
20:26:42 <graue> it'd be looking off the side of the screen
20:26:58 <kipple> well, dodos are stupid birds... :)
20:28:18 <Keymaker> and the other reason is i simply just can't draw anything :D
20:30:20 <pgimeno> sorry for the late answer, got an unexpected visit of my parents right after pressing enter in the last line I wrote
20:31:22 <pgimeno> I have both corrected DMM's Fibonacci program in Piet and created one which reads (and prints) "ESO" but then don't need to be used as logos
20:31:58 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/piet/fib2.php
20:32:09 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/eso.png
20:32:26 <graue> someone needs to make a three instruction language: [, ], and yellow flower
20:32:34 <graue> then we can say the mediawiki logo is a program
20:32:53 <kipple> the lang could be called Flower Power
20:32:56 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/eso-big.png
20:40:51 <pgimeno> it can be reduced at will; it's not fixed-size (though an integral number of pixels per codel is recommended)
20:42:17 <pgimeno> graue: can file upload permissions be established?
20:47:34 <graue> it's not permitting you to upload?
20:47:50 <pgimeno> I've been reading yesterday's log about the possibility of a separate namespace for EsoShell
20:48:11 <pgimeno> I like the idea very much but I don't like everyone being able to upload and post java files
20:50:29 <pgimeno> so if file permissions can be established for some users I think that will be safe
20:58:57 <kipple> yes. it should be restricted to admins
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21:46:30 <calamari_> keymaker: what type of music are you composing?
21:47:48 <Keymaker> dunno could one call it composing..
21:50:33 <Keymaker> and made with different program; modplug
21:50:49 <Keymaker> it's called "radiation machine"
21:51:27 <Keymaker> i guess i could upload it if you want to hear it.
21:52:55 <Keymaker> oh. and the track must be heard loud. if you listen that one low it doesn't sound good. preferably with good speakers
21:53:31 <Keymaker> it isn't very danceable, i warn
21:55:02 <Keymaker> i'm now uploading, takes a while
21:55:39 <Keymaker> as i haven't made up any artist name the artist is "factory esthetic".. :\
21:55:49 <Keymaker> (so don't care about crappy naming!)
21:56:09 <Keymaker> as well, the file is "radiation beta" although it's done :)
21:56:30 <pgimeno> I have just an unfinished one
21:57:40 <Keymaker> http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/stuff/radiation beta.mp3
21:58:12 <Keymaker> as warning, again, it's not very good!
21:58:24 <graue> why don't you upload the module?
21:58:41 <Keymaker> because i have added some effects with audacity
21:58:56 <graue> add the effects properly
21:59:35 <pgimeno> graue: so, about the permissions...?
21:59:54 <graue> i don't think that's possible
22:01:42 <pgimeno> can a wiki page hold a java program that is not an uploaded file?
22:02:02 <pgimeno> i.e. in a different URL (the files section)
22:02:25 <pgimeno> (np: factory esthetic - radiation machine)
22:04:26 <pgimeno> maybe a bit too exaggerated the bass IMO, unless you want to break my window :)
22:07:30 <pgimeno> that'd be safe enough (for me at least)
22:08:18 <pgimeno> Keymaker: you can hardly explain music, if at all
22:08:40 <pgimeno> but yeah, the ending sounds good
22:14:35 <Keymaker> i should start making some content to bf-hacks.org
22:14:58 <Keymaker> but i'm not that good writing about math/computer subjects..
22:15:10 <Keymaker> so perhaps i'll just program something
22:15:24 <Keymaker> or then start writing the first issue of the brainfuck magazine
22:15:41 <Keymaker> either the way, i'll switch to linux now, takes some mins..
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22:53:21 <calamari_> I don'tthink I'm following very well... but one thing for sure is that the class file and wiki pages need to be at the same url, or Java freaks out with security exceptions
22:53:47 <calamari_> anything at the same url is fine, but if the url changes any, Java won't allow it
22:55:10 <pgimeno> I think they can be made relative
22:55:58 <pgimeno> the only issue with that is that there are two possible servers for the URLs: www.esolangs.org and esoteric.voxelperfect.net
22:56:06 <calamari_> then I think we're okay.. the current class file prints a bunch of html garbage.. that is http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj but the class file was run from EsoShell/
22:56:27 <calamari_> pgimeno: as long as the redirect happens before the java file runs, it's okay
22:56:38 <calamari_> for example, try http://kidsquid.com/EsoShell
22:56:45 <pgimeno> only if they can be really relative
22:56:57 <graue> they're not redirects
22:57:19 <graue> can you examine the host that was given in the http request?
22:57:53 <calamari_> graue: Java doesn't care what I look at.. once it makes up its own mind, we're stuck with that decision, afaik
22:58:31 <pgimeno> graue: my concern is just if the <object> or <embed> or whatever tag is used allows relative paths; if that's possible then there's no issue, and I'm pretty sure it is
22:58:48 <calamari_> in the html, it is possible to specify the codebase
22:59:01 <calamari_> so I can tell it the codebase is on a different host than the html
22:59:18 <calamari_> that can work.. as long as the code is actually where I'm telling it
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23:09:38 <Keymaker> http://www.de.ioccc.org/2004/gavare.c
23:18:39 <Keymaker> dunno, it gave me couple of warnings
23:19:33 <Keymaker> we need similar program in brainfuck ;)
23:19:42 <kipple> the variables aren't even typed...
23:19:58 <kipple> do they default to int then?
23:20:27 <Keymaker> and i don't know, probably they default to int
23:20:40 <fizzie> Untyped variables are ints.
23:20:41 <Keymaker> something about int was said at ioccc iirc
23:21:14 <graue> variables only default to int in C89 and C95
23:21:18 <graue> in C99, that program would be invalid
23:21:48 <fizzie> One of my homework exercise solutions used untyped variables.
23:22:14 <fizzie> a,b=0;main(){read(0,&a,1)?b=b*2|a&1,main():printf("%u",b);}
23:22:44 <kipple> Keymaker: did it take long to run on you rcomputer?
23:23:43 <kipple> well, my linux box is 187 MHz, so I guess I'll wait...
23:23:54 <graue> do you think we should have articles for language inventors on the wiki?
23:24:05 <kipple> do you know what the A parameter is for?
23:24:07 <Keymaker> or then you can terminate the program and change the values in the beginning of the code
23:24:28 <kipple> isn't that the X and Y params?
23:24:46 <fizzie> The 'A' value is an anti-alias factor. Setting it to 1 disables the anti-aliasing feature (this makes the output look bad), but setting it too high makes the trace take a lot more time to complete.
23:24:51 <fizzie> http://www.ioccc.org/2004/gavare.hint
23:26:50 <kipple> graue: perhaps some of them
23:27:12 <kipple> but is there really much to say?
23:27:40 <Keymaker> probably it was "wanted pages"
23:27:42 <kipple> a short paragraph about Urban could be on the BF page
23:28:12 <Keymaker> yeah. well, seems to be we don't know much about this genius
23:28:20 <Keymaker> but i'm gonna find out someday
23:54:48 <graue> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Authors