00:03:19 <harkeyahh> do brainfuck files have a .bf extension?
00:03:31 <GregorR> Sometimes .b, sometimes .bf
00:03:52 <kipple> .bf is also used for befunge
00:03:56 <{^Raven^}> I always use .b as .bf is used by befunge
00:05:17 <Keymaker> bf is for befunge, use b instead :)
00:07:07 <graue> i hate to think what Befuck and Befreak must use
00:07:59 <kipple> well, there is no reason to limit extension to 1-3 chars really...
00:08:48 <GregorR> Anybody have a SCSI terminator they can pass me through IRC?
00:19:24 <fizzie> I can't seem to fit mine into the floppy drive for DIGITIZING.
00:20:03 <fizzie> It's for scsi-2, with that HD50 connector, if that's ok.
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00:22:37 <fizzie> It's originally from an SGI Indy, and has a value-adding "feature" of not being able to fit to the (inset) scsi connectors of an external Sun HD box.
00:23:43 <fizzie> The SCSI terminator requested few lines ago.
00:25:30 <GregorR> I'm very SCSI-inept .... this is old, and I'm not sure how old SCSI-2 is, or whether this is SCSI-2 or SCSI-1
00:26:32 <fizzie> Well... if it has a small-ish (well, small for 50 pins) 50-pin connector, it's probably scsi-2.
00:27:00 <GregorR> This is an olde Apple CD-ROM drive.
00:27:23 <fizzie> Ah, then it's probably the Centronics connector, which is larger. HD50 would look like http://www.cselex.com/images-large/HD50.jpg
00:28:01 <fizzie> Although I guess I'd have some sort of trouble DCC'ing a physical object anyway.
00:28:53 <GregorR> http://www.elara.ie/elara/graphics/Belkin/OR1230000015229.jpg < is this a SCSI terminator? I thought SCSI terminators only had one end ...
00:30:00 <fizzie> Pretty hard to say from the image. Usually they do have only a single connector.
00:30:56 <pgimeno> Keymaker: seen my tentative x=not(x)?
00:32:01 <Keymaker> could you give it to me as pure brainfuck?
00:32:24 <Keymaker> i get confused by those wiki versions that have instructions replaced with text
00:33:07 <fizzie> I'm not saying it _isn't_ a terminator, though. Some seem to have two connectors, assumedly to work as terminators when nothing's connected, but allow adding new devices to the end of the chain temporarily.
00:33:30 <pgimeno> assume x is at 0, temp0 is at 1, and D = 0; then: >[-]<[>+<[-]]+>[-<->]
00:34:23 <pgimeno> Keymaker: a label means: insert as many > or < as to go to the given label
00:35:15 <fizzie> Or possibly a: "Feed-through SCSI terminator: Use this if you have no more connectors left on your cable to connect a SCSI terminator. You plug the last connector in one side of the SCSI terminator and then plug the other side of the terminator into your last device. Helps keep cable lengths short."
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00:37:29 <Keymaker> so x is in cell 0? and this is non-wrapping?
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00:38:10 <pgimeno> I may be mistaken, I haven't tried the code
00:38:41 <pgimeno> this means: if x = 0 then x = 1 else x = 0
00:39:12 <Keymaker> yeah, it does that, what you said, yes
00:39:13 <pgimeno> isn't that what not(x) does?
00:40:45 <{^Raven^}> for bitwise signed it would be NOT(x)=MAXCELLVALUE-x
00:41:09 <pgimeno> yeah, assuming MAXCELLVALUE is a power of 2 - 1 :)
00:41:28 <Keymaker> wait.. i'm confused with these namings
00:42:01 <{^Raven^}> doesn;t matter if cell values wrap
00:42:41 <Keymaker> what's difference between bitwise and logical?
00:42:49 <Keymaker> does logical return only 0 or 1?
00:43:13 <Keymaker> and bitwise does stuff by first slicing values to bits and then doing bit operations and so on?
00:43:18 <{^Raven^}> yeah, logical NOT returns only TRUE or FALSE
00:43:28 <Keymaker> ah. then pgimenos code is logical not
00:43:45 <Keymaker> (sorry, i got confused with these names)
00:44:11 <Keymaker> logical not that works with values bigger than 1, as well
00:44:12 <pgimeno> "bitwise" means one bit at a time
00:44:43 <{^Raven^}> you can cheat a bitwise NOT easily in BF
00:45:56 <pgimeno> {^Raven^}: btw, this is related to http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms
00:47:44 <pgimeno> heh, my algorithm matches calamari's one except for the last [-x-temp0] instead of [temp0-x-]
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00:49:25 <harkeyahh> had to program the neutralizer in bf
00:51:26 <harkeyahh> I had to hack the compiler to get it to work
00:51:28 <{^Raven^}> If I can remember how to program BF: (value)>[-]-<[>-<] sets cell+1 to bitwise NOT cell
00:52:06 <harkeyahh> {^Raven^} I should upload it so you can take a look at it
00:53:33 <harkeyahh> {^Raven^} http://pastebin.bafserv.com/412
00:54:25 <harkeyahh> *note it has been hacked to adjsut for some ASCII differences in TSS
00:55:11 <{^Raven^}> or >[-]-<[>-<]>[<+>]< to set cell=NOT(cell); (cell+1) = 0
00:55:46 <harkeyahh> yeah I would have done it that way but then the page outputs backwards
01:08:19 <Keymaker> hey, here's interesting phrase: "Pile up Z's"
01:08:40 <Keymaker> according to some slang of the fifties page i'm reading
01:09:27 <GregorR> Umm, wouldn't logical not just be bitwise not proceeded by [[-]+] ?
01:10:09 <GregorR> 00000000 becomes 11111111 becomes 00000001
01:10:19 <GregorR> 00000001 becomes 11111110 --- never mind, I'm dumb.
01:12:45 <{^Raven^}> got as far as >[-]<[>+<[-]]>[<+>]< and >[-]+<[>-] but not luck
01:13:02 <{^Raven^}> keep forgetting the other condition
01:13:42 <harkeyahh> I was reading up i think it will be fine
01:14:12 * {^Raven^} is off to bed before morning happens again
01:15:34 <harkeyahh> Keymaker did you see the TSS source code?
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01:30:09 <calamari> hi Raven.. you're mentioned on the wiki under BFBASIC :)
01:30:43 <GregorR> OK, rather than finding a SCSI terminator, I'll ask: Is there any way to install Debian on an olde PowerPC laptop with a disk drive and no networking or CD? :P
01:31:38 <kipple> null-modem cable perhaps?
01:31:56 <{^Raven^}> i released Lost Kingdom to the world today :) but i guess you know that already ;)
01:33:12 <kipple> gregor: doesn't it have some equivalent of a serial port?
01:33:43 <GregorR> kipple: It has a modem ... and a strange port with a little telephone on it XD
01:33:51 <GregorR> (Gregor is not a macintosh expert :P)
01:34:31 <fizzie> A disk drive as in a floppy one?
01:35:20 <calamari> raven: cool! (goes off to download)
01:35:48 <GregorR> BTW {^Raven^}, though Lost Kingdom is whooping my arse, it's quite awesome.
01:36:26 <graue> show us how impressive the source in BFBASIC looks
01:36:51 <graue> the way it uses brainfuck is no better than giving us a big .exe file
01:37:09 <fizzie> (I'm not a mac expert either.) I've once installed linux on one x86 laptop much like that one. I used the internal modem in the laptop, connected to another modem on a desktop box (with atx3 they won't insist on a dial tone) running pppd, then did a network install.
01:37:14 <graue> and saying "look what i did in machine code!"
01:37:24 <fizzie> For booting you'd probably need a bootable mac floppy.
01:37:40 <GregorR> graue: I think a .class file might be a better comparison.
01:37:55 <GregorR> fizzie: I can boot into the basic installer, I just can't get the packages from anywhere XD
01:38:10 <graue> GregorR, same difference
01:38:25 <graue> brainfuck is only interesting when it's handwritten
01:39:55 <fizzie> If there's a version that supports the modem and ppp, you could do it the way I did. If you're _really_ patient, you could also write the packages on gazillion floppies, and copy on the HD, and install from there, using the shell included in the installer.
01:40:15 <fizzie> Uh, 'copy on the HDD using the shell', I mean.
01:41:04 <kipple> you'd only need two floppies, not a gazillion
01:41:33 <kipple> but you would have to reuse them a gazillion times
01:41:47 <fizzie> Well, yes, gazillion floppyfuls (hee, nice word) of data.
01:42:17 <GregorR> That sounds like more fun than I can possibly describe 8-D
01:42:25 <calamari> GregorR: yeah, it might not be too hard to convert from bfbasic bf back to bfbasic, since the source for bfbasic is available
01:42:42 <fizzie> It's like watching paint dry, only less interesting.
01:44:26 <calamari> graue: re: handwritten, I disagree.. it might be a little unsettling to see a larger project in bf, but I think most people would agree that asm doesn't work out the best for huge projects.. bf is like asm in many ways
01:45:44 <calamari> it just makes sense to use a compiler in large cases
01:50:49 <graue> calamari, yeah, but then why use brainfuck?
01:51:31 <graue> the reason to use brainfuck is it's challenging and interesting to write in
01:51:50 <graue> if you're compiling, why not just compile for your machine?
01:53:06 <graue> i wrote a DOS program once using only a hex editor, and that was interesting to have written something in machine code, but i don't compile mammoth C programs to 2 MB binaries and say, hey, look what i wrote in machine code!
01:53:12 <graue> the reason for it being interesting is a lie
01:56:15 <calamari> graue: bf is cross platform.. and it is interesting to me: 1) example of the power of bf, 2) a fun game, 3) using bfbasic, 4) big, etc
01:57:16 <calamari> graue: and if you have something cool to show off that your wrote in c, I don't think anyone here would mind :)
01:57:17 <graue> fair enough, but you gotta admit it ain't nothin' like a program actually written in brainfuck
01:58:01 <calamari> graue: you wouldn't use bfbasic in a bfgolf tournament.. is that what you're looking for? :)
01:59:01 <graue> i wrote this in C, which is cross platform because it runs in wine: http://www.thunderpalace.com/software/blockman/
01:59:12 <graue> i guess everyone here will be astounded at how impressive that is
02:02:18 <calamari> impressive, most impressive.. obi-wan has taught you well, you have controlled your fear. now release your anger.. only your hatred can destroy me :)
02:02:49 <calamari> since I know how big a star wars fan you are, I know you'll appreciate that ;)
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02:05:05 <calamari> graue: "BLOCKMAN.LVL is nonexistent or corrupt"
02:06:12 <calamari> not trying to run it from the zip or anything
02:06:47 <calamari> hmm.. works from the command line
02:07:05 <calamari> wonder where the bug is.. gnome, wine, or ubuntu?
02:11:17 <calamari> graue: somehow I get the feeling the game is abandoned, but if not, the game would benefit from a menu, for restart, quit, and easy access to help
02:12:00 <graue> well, it was only a version 0.07
02:16:59 <calamari> *nod*, doesn't change my suggestion any :)
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05:34:37 <calamari> argh.. my esoshell hacks for printed backspaces don't seem to be working right
05:34:51 <calamari> gotta give up for now, homework time
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11:13:32 <Keymaker> hmmm. grrhhh. i had some question in mind just second ago
11:16:40 <Keymaker> yes.. what's difference between random and undefined?
11:18:32 <kipple> undefined can be anything, while random implies a certain distribution of values
11:20:10 <kipple> at least that's how I see it. there are probably people here who can put it more formally
11:20:52 <Keymaker> as well, if anyone has any information about aura, tell me
11:21:30 <kipple> I've looked at the interpreter source. is there any web site?
11:33:57 <fizzie> I'd say the precise meanings of 'random' and 'undefined' depend on the context in which they are used. In the C specs for example, the term undefined is well-defined.
11:34:01 <fizzie> ("behavior, upon use of a nonportable or erroneous program construct, of erroneous data, or of indeterminately valued objects, for which this International Standard imposes no requirements")
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17:55:33 <calamari_> hi raven, just sent you a mail :) can't work on it right now tho
17:56:47 <{^Raven^}> me either, i have a cross compiler to port to C and a load of other programs to write
17:57:51 <{^Raven^}> I have some ideas for writing better brainfuck virtual machines that I need to write up
17:58:35 * {^Raven^} prefers the term virtual-machine to interpreter any day
18:01:15 <malaprop> Doesn't "virtual machine" include the idea of sandboxing?
18:03:15 <{^Raven^}> It can do, it depends ultimately on the functionality you are trying to achieve
18:03:56 <malaprop> The machine isn't virtual if it's stepping all over your real machine, tho.
18:04:55 <{^Raven^}> IMHO any current interpreter that allows a program to wander into arbitary workspace is horrificly broken
18:05:09 <calamari_> malaprop: would you consider Java a virtual machine, even though it ties in to all sorts of low level stuff?
18:12:38 <malaprop> Java the language? No, it's a language. JVM, yes, as a browser applet is sandoboxed.
18:14:17 <{^Raven^}> *depending on the security settings active at the time. A JVM with appropriate permissions can access the underlying OS
18:25:52 <kipple> well, I don't think there is a definition of virtual machine that everbody would agree on
18:28:00 <malaprop> I don't see any definitions on Wikipedia that don't include some kind of sandboxing. Where do y'all see it defined without?
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18:30:56 <kipple> but what is sandboxing? brainfuck interpreters isolates the programs from the computer, and does not allow arbitrary memory and file access
18:32:36 <malaprop> bf is isolated because there's no implementation of file IO. It'd be a VM if bf had IO and it was to a fake filesystem only.
18:32:44 <{^Raven^}> malaprop: google for - define:virtual machine
18:34:20 <malaprop> {^Raven^}: Every definition it returns includes sandboxing. Heck, one simply says "A machine which is implemented in software."
18:38:14 <CXI> <malaprop> Doesn't "virtual machine" include the idea of sandboxing? <--- my answer would be yes
18:38:25 <{^Raven^}> malaprop: At the lowest level a VM is a bytecode interpreter. A brainfuck interpreter interprets brainfuck bytecode. But I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
18:39:22 <graue> i don't see how a brainfuck interpreter fails to be a machine implemented in software
18:39:38 <malaprop> I won't agree to disagree. You're using a term (VM) in place of the proper one (interpreter).
18:39:51 <CXI> well on some level everything's just a virtual turing machine
18:39:53 <malaprop> graue: It doesn't include virtual disks, screens, anything.
18:40:33 <graue> machines don't need to have those things to be machines
18:40:42 <malaprop> I'm starting to think that "it's turing complete" is the computer science equivalent of solipsism.
18:41:33 <malaprop> And if we're going to go into boring useless theoretical concerns, nothing is a turing machine because they're finite.
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20:14:30 <cpressey_> < malaprop> graue: It doesn't include virtual disks, screens, anything.
20:14:59 <lament> malaprop is a sad sad man
20:15:12 <lament> if he thinks a language should provide access to a file system
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20:37:13 <malaprop> I didn't say a language should, was pointing out that this one didn't.
20:37:53 <malaprop> It starts simple: first programmers want access to files. Then before you know it they'll want OpenGL.
20:40:06 <malaprop> I'm familiar with Python's BDFL...
20:40:46 <Keymaker> nothing :) it was a joke, SDL libraries for brainfuck :)
20:47:05 <tokigun> Keymaker: SDL for Brainfuck? sounds good :)
20:48:26 <malaprop> You could see if you can port SWIG.
20:48:55 <{^Raven^}> There is EsoAPI and Easel in development as part of he PESOIX specification for esolangs.
20:49:47 <{^Raven^}> EsoAPI allows low level disk access (when running as the main OS) and Easel allows file IO and more
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21:03:50 <Keymaker> yeah. and to note: i am not going to do anything :)
21:07:03 <Keymaker> hmm. someone search "simpsons" with google.. what add it gives you?
21:09:13 <malaprop> A whole lot of pages about the TV show.
21:11:03 <Keymaker> ok. then the ads aren't same for us
21:12:54 <fizzie> "SEX XXX PORN LIVE SHOWS" was the ad I got.
21:40:34 <Keymaker> these simpsons quotes are so funny :D
21:43:29 <Keymaker> "My Homer is not a communist! He may be a pig, a liar, a communist but he is not a porn star!" -- grandpa
21:48:23 <Keymaker> "I have been shot eight times this year, and as a result, I almost missed work." -- apu
21:51:08 <Keymaker> "The Statue of Liberty? Where are we?!" -- milhouse
21:56:30 <Keymaker> "McBain to base! Under attack by Commie-Nazis!"
22:01:27 <Keymaker> anyways, i'm off to watch some simpsons. then probably go night photographing. so, see you tomorrow :)
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