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01:04:49 <graue> anyone written a quine in Qdeql yet?
01:12:18 <graue> kipple, what have you been up to?
01:12:59 <kipple> currently I'm pondering about the next Kipple version
01:14:01 <graue> that should be done by now
01:14:21 <graue> oh, I was just jesting
01:14:31 <graue> actually I like kipple so much fundamentally that I've been thinking about the possibility of making a non-esoteric language resembling it
01:14:47 <graue> yeah, it's cool having stacks built in like that
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01:19:43 <calamari> that reminds me, I need to set up a cron job for that download :)
01:20:41 <graue> you need to write a quine in Qdeql
01:21:06 <graue> and it needs to be more than 0 bytes long
01:21:28 <calamari> I wonder if there can be a tc language for which there is no quine
01:21:58 <kipple> ah, that reminds me to forbid null programs in the Kipple spec :)
01:22:17 <kipple> calamari: that is an interesting question!
01:29:17 <calamari> graue: is & the only way to enqueue a byte in qdeql?
01:31:16 <calamari> wait though.. when starting off there is nothing in the queue, so how do you get started besides input?
01:32:22 <calamari> unless you start off with a single item in the queue.. then you could do -\
01:48:44 <graue> \ reads 0 if the queue is empty
01:48:50 <graue> same as anything that reads from the queue
01:49:12 <graue> (that also means you can get a 0 byte by doing = to an empty queue, or get a 255 byte by doing - to an empty queue)
01:49:39 <graue> \ and & are the only ways to enqueue something when starting from a nonempty queue
01:49:57 <graue> of course there can be a TC language with no quine
01:50:01 <graue> Turing machines can't do output
01:50:09 <kipple> there isn't a qdeql article in the wiki. do you have a link to the spec?
01:50:11 <graue> Smallfuck is a TC language with no quine
01:50:14 <graue> www.oceanbase.org/graue/qdeql
01:50:47 * kipple bookmarks it this time
01:51:27 <calamari> if the queue is empy, how can you dequeue.. isn't that an error?
01:52:00 <calamari> oh, I see it in the spec now :)
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02:15:18 <heatsink> calamari: turing proved that any TC language has a quine
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02:21:03 <graue> heatsink, um, that's not true
02:21:16 <graue> TC languages are not obligated to provide any form of output
02:21:34 <graue> and you can't just say "any TC language with output" because what if it can't output all of the characters used in its source?
02:22:00 <graue> what if it throws a "This programming language is (C) 1999 ME! All rights reserved" message into the beginning of the output and using that is invalid?
02:22:14 <graue> you would need a totally different definition than "TC language" in order to provide anything meaningful like that
02:35:46 <calamari> graue: if it throws that into the beginning of output it's okay, because the quine when run will automatically output that too
02:35:59 <heatsink> I'm pretty sure that the only output of a turing computer is what that computer writes on the tape (which is also its input)
02:36:37 <heatsink> So any program that has the same contents of the tape when it halts is a turing machine quine.
02:36:57 <heatsink> That is different from having a separate I/O channel, I guess
02:37:12 <calamari> graue: so I think that's pretty good evidence against quines :)
02:37:25 <heatsink> http://www.cs.cornell.edu/Courses/cs682/2004sp/Lectures/l34-recthm.pdf first page talks about the relation of quines to the fixpoint operator
02:54:07 <cpressey> since a UTM has to have a description of a TM on its tape when it starts... seems dreadfully easy to make a quine ;)
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03:20:01 <graue> heatsink, for the memory to be the code when the program finishes is not possible in many Turing-complete languages
03:20:13 <graue> the memory may not be a sequence of bytes (like code usually is)
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14:08:40 <jix> moin tokigun
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17:20:14 <jix> i'm writing a YABALL interpreter atm
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18:15:42 <jix> YABALL interpreter done
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19:14:09 <Keymaker> yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!!
19:14:18 <Keymaker> i got the quine under 1000 instructions
19:14:19 <Keymaker> http://bf-hacks.org/hacks/quine.b
19:15:01 <Keymaker> so, neatly 78 instructions less :)
19:16:10 <Keymaker> my goal was to get a quine under 1000 instructions, and i finally succeeded. now i don't write bf quines for a while, i'll do other kind of programs :)
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19:36:28 <jix> ok YABALL interpreter is linked on the wiki
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19:44:42 <GregorR> I need a good dictionary of words related to esoteric programming to use for my scrabble clone :P
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20:14:40 <kipple> an entire dictionary? good luck... (the wiki is a good starting place)
20:15:05 <kipple> are language names acceptable?
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20:27:48 <{^Raven^}> kipple: technichally no because they are proper nouns but you could make an exception
20:28:24 <kipple> yes, I know the normal rules
20:29:34 <kipple> but an esoteric scrabble that does not allow words like brainfuck or funge? I'd say allow it
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21:09:57 <GregorR> My fault. The word "dictionary" is inaccurate here.
21:10:01 <GregorR> I really just mean "word list"
21:10:13 <GregorR> Hell, doesn't even have to be words.
21:11:45 <GregorR> I'm just trying to think of some bizarre dictionaries for my bizarre scrabble clone. Currently the only one I have is the libc symbol list :)
21:12:30 <graue> I tried to play as "Himself" in one of your games, but I couldn't come up with anything that would fit
21:15:04 <graue> so just copy all the language names and make a wordlist out of those, and related terms
21:15:18 <graue> funge, quine, stack, queue, cell, turing, etc
21:15:55 <kipple> how about TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL with triple word score?
21:16:09 <graue> it's longer than 15 letters, so it can't be done :(
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21:17:34 <GregorR> The problem is, my libc symbol dictionary has 2,800 something words, and it's really, REALLY tough.
21:17:40 <csaba> Hi, I've finished writing a visual Turing machine designer. If you're interested check it out: an be done?
21:17:40 <csaba> [21:40] <elite01> hmm maybe firefox will do
21:17:44 <csaba> [21:40] <elite01> hmm maybe firefox will do
21:18:03 <GregorR> Didn't have the copy buffer you thought you did? :)
21:18:04 <csaba> http://sourceforge.net/projects/visualturing/
21:18:05 <csaba> I'm interested in what you think
21:18:30 <graue> GregorR, libc has a lot of repetition
21:18:53 <graue> e.g. the fact that you can make all of vsprintf, vprintf, vsnprintf, snprintf, sprintf, printf, and fprintf, doesn't help much
21:19:06 <GregorR> Even so, the list of languages and common elements in esoteric languages would be well under 1000, probably under 500.
21:19:19 <graue> "quine," "cell," and "turing" are easy
21:19:37 <graue> don't make me write this wordlist for you
21:19:53 <GregorR> I'll look in to it when not at work ;)
21:20:15 <csaba> Turing machine is considered esoteric language?
21:20:35 <graue> no, but we like to prove that esoteric languages are equivalent to Turing machines
21:20:43 <graue> because that means they can compute lots of stuff
21:21:14 <csaba> so basically it's propaganda to fool people into using esoteric languages? :)
21:22:05 <kipple> uh, no. It's for proving the usefulness of the language
21:22:26 <csaba> anyone used brainfuck?
21:22:58 <kipple> anyone not used brainfuck here?
21:23:11 <csaba> I've downloaded an interpreter and now I've showing it to everyone to see what kind of people exist
21:23:30 <lament> turing machines are very much like an esoteric language
21:23:39 <lament> they're about as hard to write programs for as brainfuck.
21:23:48 <csaba> check out my program:
21:23:48 <csaba> [22:20] <graue> "quine," "cell," and "turing" are easy
21:23:48 <csaba> [22:20] <graue> don't make me write this wordlist for you
21:23:57 <csaba> http://sourceforge.net/projects/visualturing/
21:24:14 <csaba> I designed a machine which calculates factoriel in less than 5 minutes
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21:29:43 <graue> wait, a factorial of what?
21:30:10 <csaba> well, 5! is |||||| and you'd get 125+1 lines in the end ;)
21:30:56 <csaba> it's cute to look at the machine head going left and right, doing stuff etc...
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21:31:53 <lament> csaba: the factorial of 5 is 120
21:32:14 <csaba> I'm really tired, I haven't slept normally for 3 days
21:35:28 <graue> it is cool that you made this
21:36:12 <csaba> does it run at yourplace? I'm worried that because it's written in Java people might have problems in starting it
21:49:02 <lindi-> csaba: just create a native binary and people can run it just like any other program
21:50:11 <csaba> I've placed a start.exe which runs the "java -jar Turing.jar" command... it should work if JVM is installed...
21:51:00 <lindi-> csaba: yeah, but you can make it turing.exe with GCC
21:51:57 <csaba> well ok, I'll make an exe...
21:53:15 <GregorR> Doesn't it use swing? Is there a swing for GCJ?
21:54:46 <lindi-> GregorR: and it's improving at a steady pace
21:57:05 <lindi-> although it seems to have some issues...
22:07:50 <jix> csaba: always use the name of the containing folder for a zip/tgz file.. it's a lot easier to find the folder that way..
22:09:15 <csaba> jix: rename the zip file to Turing.zip ?
22:09:28 <jix> i can't guess the name of the folder
22:10:06 <csaba> ok I'll keep that in mind
22:10:11 <jix> but i like sticking the archive and folder together in a sorted list..
22:11:23 <csaba> well I was just happy I finished the damn thing, I haven't slept normally for 3 days because of it... didn't think about how to name the zip file ;)
22:13:14 <csaba> ok, I'll compile an exe file tomorrow... might as well add a readme.txt... now I'm going to bed...
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