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00:10:03 <BigZaphod> I think windows should be named an esoteric OS because it is just a pain to use sometimes.
00:10:34 <BigZaphod> sorry, just venting... I had a failed attempt to make a win2k box dhcp properly.
00:26:06 <graue> I think it's pretty esoteric how Macs cannot be controlled using the keyboard at all
00:26:54 <BigZaphod> bah.. that's only a problem if you don't know all the shortcut keys. :)
00:46:38 <pgimeno> is 2L a counterexample of the wire crossing problem?
00:56:48 <pgimeno> I'm not sure to have understood the problem well
01:05:35 <graue> the problem is that languages like Befunge and SNUSP and such seem(ed) need to have a "jump over" instruction somehow
01:12:48 <pgimeno> wouldn't a "nop" (space) be enough?
01:13:28 <pgimeno> (in the points where the paths cross, that is)
01:16:37 <graue> that counts as a wire crossing too
01:18:13 <pgimeno> yeah, but no need for # if a space is in the crosspoint
01:19:34 <graue> replace "the problem is that" with "roughly stated, the problem is that"
01:22:44 <pgimeno> well, part of the state (in the TM/FSA sense) is the PC direction; if a NOP instruction is in the crosspoint then the wires can cross without problems, as long as there's a state that "remembers" the PC direction - that's my opinion at least
02:09:44 <graue> I've just written an interpreter for a really esoteric language
02:34:02 <graue> no, not like Wierd
02:34:18 <graue> just like Befunge or PATH or SNUSP or whatever, but it can move diagonally
02:34:24 <graue> and all turns are relative
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07:24:55 <graue> I've released a new two-dimensional language, ADJUST
07:25:02 <graue> it is extremely esoteric
07:25:19 <graue> look for it at http://www.esolangs.org/files/ in at most eight hours
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09:12:06 <cpressey> pgimeno: the problem is not whether wires "can cross without problems", it's simply whether wires must cross at all
09:12:19 <cpressey> afaict 2L is rife with wire (or if you prefer, path) crossings
09:13:39 <cpressey> i have a hard time imagining writing a 2L program without crossing at least once - but that doesn't mean much, since i have a hard time imagining writing *any* 2L program :)
09:14:02 <cpressey> anyway, it's way past my bedtime... good night
09:15:10 <pgimeno> so the problem is to build a noncrossing program, not to let it cross without problems
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18:55:53 <cpressey> pgimeno: yes... or rather, to find a language where all programs are non-crossing (or prove that there isn't one)
18:55:58 <cpressey> for some definition of non-crossing
18:56:21 <cpressey> which seems to be the real sticking point... it's hard to define how programs should be represented by graphs
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18:57:51 <cpressey> anyway, ... i just found this, somewhat randomly:
18:57:54 <cpressey> http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/L/Li/List_of_esoteric_programming_languages.htm
18:58:01 <cpressey> lists several that i've never heard of
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19:45:30 <cpressey> oh, i see.. it's just a copy of wikipedia's list... (strangely large list they have considering they don't consider half of them encylopedic enough...)
19:48:30 <cpressey> i'd like to see a voting system on the esolang wiki btw
19:49:08 <cpressey> something like, everyone with a user page is allowed to put either a '+' or a '-' next to each entry on the language list
19:49:16 <cpressey> but only one, and it must have a link to the user page
19:50:52 <cpressey> maybe it would be better to just try to get everything, no matter how bad
19:50:56 <cpressey> but i'm not sure where it stops
19:51:57 <cpressey> for that matter, is ALPACA really esoteric?
19:52:34 <cpressey> anyway, someone wake up graue... i want to know why he deleted 23.
20:01:39 <cpressey> bah, the wiki's gone down anyway :(
20:04:13 <cpressey> n/m, back up... maybe it's just under load
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21:23:22 <graue> cpressey: when I started the esowiki in April, I originally intended to copy over the esolang content from Wikipedia
21:23:48 <graue> I got about half through with that before deciding it was a mess and it would be best to start over, so I deleted everything
21:24:11 <graue> no one has gotten around to re-adding 23
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21:53:58 <cpressey> graue: ok, i was about to re-add it... i'll do that, then
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22:24:27 <cpressey> hrm. there is sort of a band between esoteric and joke language... sort of an "I DARE you to implement this"...: *W, SARTRE, Magenta, Tamerlane, TURKEY BOMB, probably others... they could be jokes, or esolangs, depending on the weather... wonder if they deserve their own category...
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22:42:31 <pgimeno> cpressey: I guess a SMITH variant going in spirals can be a TC 2D language
22:47:18 <pgimeno> TC noncrossing 2D language, I mean
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22:47:36 <pgimeno> (but maybe I'm still misunderstanding something)
22:49:10 <graue> hey pgimeno, you looked at ADJUST yet?
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23:19:41 <cpressey> pgimeno: it's quite possible. cellular automata look like good leads...
23:19:53 * Kmkr reads about adjust
23:21:35 <Kmkr> sounds interesting this far..
23:26:54 <Kmkr> this language is evil
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23:33:38 <graue> pgimeno, link is: http://www.esolangs.org/files/adjust/
23:34:43 <graue> Kmkr, writing anything in it?
23:37:47 <graue> one trick I discovered that was not intentional, is that you can access the 2, 3, and 5 commands by themselves using 2 (2*5*5), K (3*5*5) and } (5*5*5), since applying 5 twice is a nop
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23:48:01 <Kmkr> but perhaps sometime
23:48:19 <Kmkr> that's cool, i was wondering how to do that
23:49:07 <graue> you were supposed to have to do other stuff too and just deal with the side effects
23:49:23 <graue> but it turned out so confusing to program in that I think the 2K} wimpmode is a good thing
23:52:05 <Kmkr> "Push the accelerator's value"
23:52:10 <Kmkr> you probably mean accumulator there
23:53:59 <Kmkr> "We consider bits in a byte to be numbered from 0 to 7, with 0 being the least significant."
23:54:13 <Kmkr> does this mean 00000001 would be one or vice versa?
23:54:26 <Kmkr> i've never understood what means least significant
23:55:03 <lindi-> Kmkr: that would be 0 then
23:55:05 <graue> the 1 bit is least significant, then the 2 bit, then the 4 bit etc
23:55:21 <lindi-> or on this case, 0th bit :)
23:55:22 <graue> in 00000001, the bit that is on is bit 0, yes
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