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04:22:48 <tokigun> GregorR: "이 문장은 문법적으로 올바르다." is Korean translation of "This sentence is grammatically correct.", maybe ;)
04:28:42 <GregorR> BTW, IDIA (my mud engine) is in subversion now 8-D
04:33:05 <GregorR> http://subversion.tigris.org/
04:33:09 <tokigun> i've used cvs for years but i'm not familiar to subversion ;)
04:33:29 <GregorR> It has a few features nicer than CVS, and at least one that I think is worse *shrugs*
04:35:14 <int-e> what's the worse one *is curious*?
04:35:42 * int-e is a bit unhappy that it doesn't update the local revision number on commit ...
04:36:09 * int-e is very happy about global revision numbers though
04:39:10 <GregorR> I don't like how subversion handles branches.
04:39:24 <int-e> hmm. I've yet to try that.
04:39:26 <GregorR> I'm not sure whether I'm just not used to it or I honestly dislike it, however.
04:40:13 <GregorR> Anyway, if anybody wants to give it a whirl, 'svn co svn://idia.codu.org/IDIA/idia/trunk idia'
04:40:39 <GregorR> (Managed to mooch SVN hosting from a friend :P)
04:41:40 <int-e> I think I'm a too big fan of lpmuds to try that
04:43:00 <GregorR> IDIA is more Diku/MERC/ROM/SMAUG/Circle monolithic style, not "here's an interpreter have fun" style.
04:44:50 <int-e> I like a central event queue though (I've thought of that before but never coded it. It's strange noone seems to do that.)
04:45:28 * calamari_ is installing windows 2003 again :(
04:46:42 <calamari_> but.. at least itis being done in qemu so I can still use my computer :)
04:47:01 <int-e> for example I've yet to find a mud interpreter (lpmud similar) that has priority queues as a builtin datatype.
04:47:10 <int-e> it seems to be so obvious.
04:47:11 <GregorR> int-e: I really can't stand the heartbeat style.
04:47:29 <GregorR> It's better on SMAUG with a .25 second heartbeat, but still awful :P
04:47:46 <int-e> ok, the backend cycle structure is quite limiting indeed
04:48:22 <GregorR> Anyway, I don't care if anybody cares about IDIA, I'm just writing it for kicks *shrugs*
04:52:57 <calamari_> I know you're talking about muds.. but it'd be really cool to have a multiplayer roguelike where changes to the world were remembered, talking was limited by distance (too far away, can't hear), there were different languages for different races (even if random chars).. wish I could get motivated to stick to one project, lol
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07:18:59 <GregorR> I just instantiated my first object in IDIA 8-D
07:19:09 <GregorR> (That is, within the game itself, not in the code)
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10:58:22 <jix> {^Raven^}: i have a risc os running on a emulator
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13:48:35 <Aardwolf> Check out the description of my new language in the works: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Deltaplex
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14:25:58 <Gs30ng> well, ok, here's the thing:
14:26:23 <Gs30ng> is there any symbol or emblem for esolang?
14:27:26 <Gs30ng> i mean, like, a penguin represents Linux, and an apple represents Mac or stuffs from Apple, Inc.
14:28:10 <Gs30ng> i think it'll be great if we got a symbol of esolang
14:31:05 <Gs30ng> thanks. we can have some time of discussion for this.
14:31:28 <Aardwolf> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/skins/common/images/wiki.png
14:31:50 <Gs30ng> hmm. that's default logo of MediaWiki
14:32:48 <Gs30ng> i've been thinking about the symbol thing but couldn't get any good idea
14:33:18 <Aardwolf> what kind of symbol could represent programming languages
14:33:53 <Gs30ng> there are too many sort of esolang, and it seems the one symbol including them all can't exist
14:34:42 <Gs30ng> Aardwolf is right. we don't even have any symbol for *programming language*
14:34:51 <int-e> try the set of all sets ...
14:34:58 * int-e disappears in a puff of logic
14:35:33 <Gs30ng> maybe, like linux or apple, something that is not related to programming languages could be
14:35:48 <Gs30ng> linux is no penguin-like
14:37:11 <Gs30ng> like esoteric animals or foods...
14:37:43 <Gs30ng> maybe some geometric figures..
14:38:04 <Aardwolf> http://home.hccnet.nl/van.lierop/parahulp/foto/krachtdieren/gordeldier.jpg
14:38:05 <Gs30ng> or something represents the canoncial esolangs like bf
14:38:13 <Aardwolf> that's a weird animal, but I don't know it's name in english
14:38:48 <kipple> there has been some discussions here about a logo before
14:39:07 <kipple> I suggested the Dodo bird as a mascot :)
14:40:37 <Aardwolf> Now that some people are active here, please check out my new language in the world: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Deltaplex
14:41:20 <kipple> I also made some logo suggestions for the wiki based on the standard mediawiki logo and brainfuck: http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/logos.html
14:41:24 <Gs30ng> but, since there's no dodo now, can sound like "All the esolang is dead as a dodo!!!"
14:41:55 <kipple> Yeah, it's not easy to find an animal that fits, though...
14:42:58 <Gs30ng> kipple, your bf logo idea is, just, great
14:43:42 <Gs30ng> i haven't thought that mediawiki logo could be like bf source code
14:44:37 <kipple> Aardwolf: looks interesting. we need more high-level esolangs :)
14:44:59 <Aardwolf> My hope is that it'll be possible to make a 3D shooter in it ;)
14:45:16 <kipple> haha. that would be great
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14:48:01 <Gs30ng> i love the idea of kipple. one vote for it here
14:49:08 <Gs30ng> but maybe some guys think it is not fit for a symbol of esolang... it represents only bf and there's a lot of non-bf-like esolangs
14:49:40 <kipple> It was meant as a symbol for the Wiki, not for esolangs in general
14:51:06 <Gs30ng> a homage for Alan Turing could work
14:54:35 <Gs30ng> he is often considered the father of modern computer science but also did a critical part for esolang world
14:54:49 <jix> i think it should be a thing that no other use as logo
14:54:55 <kipple> did he do anything esoteric?
14:55:15 <jix> using an animal is not esoteric
14:55:24 <jix> too many things have animals as logo
14:55:41 <kipple> There were some attempts of making a Piet program/logo earlier, but I don't remember how it went
14:56:01 <Gs30ng> but what if we use http://home.hccnet.nl/van.lierop/parahulp/foto/krachtdieren/gordeldier.jpg
14:56:11 <Gs30ng> that seems esoteric enough
14:56:19 <WildHalcyon> Im not convinced that the armadillo is really that esoteric...
14:56:29 <jix> we could make up an animal out of many different animals
14:56:44 <Gs30ng> that is called armadillo. i didn't know that
14:57:01 <Gs30ng> making a virtual animal is also good idea
14:57:01 <jix> the most esoteric parts of the most esoteric animals from the most esoteric.. uhm..
14:57:51 <Gs30ng> well i think that kind of animal would scare people
14:58:00 <jix> a fish with butterfly wings and....
14:58:34 <jix> a bird head
14:58:53 <jix> nothing human imo
14:59:14 <Gs30ng> all the esolangs are made by human
14:59:31 <jix> yes but they look like they were made by aliens ^^
15:00:09 <WildHalcyon> Aliens familiar with ascii... well.. sort of familiar with it I guess
15:00:24 <Gs30ng> you said "most esoteric animals"... then butterfly wings or bird head is disqualified
15:00:35 <Gs30ng> let's name some more esoteric animals
15:00:51 <WildHalcyon> aliens who have heard of ascii and thought it was a form of interpretive dance
15:01:45 <Gs30ng> ...wait. then the logo should be really complicated
15:01:56 <Gs30ng> we can't make a small size of logo then
15:01:57 <WildHalcyon> Im not sure that my namesake quite envisions the esoteric mantra
15:02:01 <jix> the logo should be generated by a computer program!
15:02:31 <jix> no MS Paint generates no images
15:02:36 <Gs30ng> Glitch image could work
15:02:43 <jix> NS Paint's is a tool that allows humans to generate images
15:03:27 <Gs30ng> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Glitch_cityscrnshot.jpg
15:03:32 <Gs30ng> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glitch
15:04:12 <WildHalcyon> but esolangs arent really glitches, are they?
15:04:22 <WildHalcyon> We dont want folks saying "Haha.. those esolangs.. something's WRONG with them"
15:04:26 <kipple> hehe. some might argue they are ;)
15:04:52 <Gs30ng> well most of esolang codes are seem glitches
15:05:15 <kipple> the logo could just be a bunch of random ASCII noise
15:05:39 <kipple> that would represent quite a lot of esolangs ;)
15:05:46 <Gs30ng> wait. i think the logo should be static
15:06:06 <Gs30ng> like, everybody can make different version of esolang logo, is not good
15:06:22 <kipple> sure. I didn't mean it should be dynamic
15:06:42 <Gs30ng> but random ASCII noise seems like that
15:07:22 <kipple> you don't have to generate it more than once
15:07:42 <jix> use a really complex generating function
15:07:52 <Gs30ng> the logo should be easy to recognize, like, whenever we see that we can tell there's something related to esolang
15:08:04 <Gs30ng> random ASCII noises are not.
15:11:59 <Gs30ng> i'd rather vote for kipple's wiki bf logo.
15:12:01 <Gs30ng> http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/logos.html
15:13:46 <Gs30ng> kipple, are those logos all public domain?
15:16:02 <kipple> the one with the flower possibly has some restrictions as I took it from the mediawiki logo
15:16:53 <Gs30ng> well i think mediawiki things are all PD... i'll look up for it
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15:21:49 <kipple> maybe we should make a page in the wiki about the logo issue, so more people would contribute
16:09:21 <jix> http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/3286/nqr1kx.png sort of random but if you see it you can recognize it
16:09:58 <Gs30ng> good, but too hard to simplify
16:11:44 <jix> its HSL[(y^2+x^3)/20000,Cos[x*y/300]/3+0.5,Sec[x*y/10]/3+0.5] for x,y = 0..127
16:35:15 <Gs30ng> i'm trying to draw a picture which is literally "Brainfuck", but i have no idea to express the word f*ck.
16:36:16 <jix> i have a not-well-suited idea *g*
16:36:29 <jix> but brainfuck isn't the only esolang
16:36:41 <jix> i'm against a brainfuck specific logo
16:36:50 <Gs30ng> most of esolangs f*ck our brain
16:37:22 <Gs30ng> that's why i'm trying to make that sort of logo
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18:12:05 <nooga> kipple: i like the kipple language
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18:27:31 <nooga> tokigun: say that you've finished it
18:28:59 <nooga> but he'll read the log ;p
18:29:43 <Gs30ng> and you mean his sadol interpreter, right?
18:30:38 <nooga> now im reading about mono and .NET stuff
18:30:50 <nooga> i plan to make a SADOL compiler
18:31:28 <kipple> what's this sadol language? there is no article in the wiki
18:31:40 <Gs30ng> you should check the log
18:31:54 <kipple> is there a spec or something somewhere?
18:32:08 <Gs30ng> nooga will give you it
18:32:52 <nooga> kipple: http://nooga.int.pl/sadol/ but be warned, my english sucks ;p
18:33:00 <kipple> found some links in the logs. but they don't work
18:33:19 <kipple> that link doesn't work for me :(
18:33:26 <Gs30ng> nooga, i think the language is not so sadistic
18:33:58 <Gs30ng> langs like Malbolge is sadistic, but your lang isn't
18:34:03 <nooga> try to write a bigger program ;p
18:34:13 <nooga> you can get lost any time
18:34:24 <kipple> can't connect to server http://nooga.int.pl
18:34:27 <nooga> lol -> http://www.hackles.org/cgi-bin/archives.pl?request=7
18:34:41 <jix> but you can do structured programming in it
18:34:58 <Gs30ng> in Malbolge, it took several years to make first program in it
18:35:05 <kipple> now it suddenly works... strange
18:35:21 <nooga> kipple: this is private server
18:35:47 <Gs30ng> compared to some langs that 'designed to be hard', sadol isn't sadistic, actually
18:36:00 <nooga> then think about another name ;p
18:36:13 <nooga> because i dont know ;p
18:36:24 <kipple> LOL: http://nooga.int.pl/sadol/sadol.jpg
18:37:24 <kipple> Gs30ng: I saw in the logs that you're looking for the owner of the esolangs.org doman
18:37:41 <nooga> many ppl like this image
18:37:51 <Gs30ng> that image is why we are paying so much attention on sadol
18:38:28 <kipple> I can't remember who it is, but it is someone here on #esoteric
18:41:53 <Gs30ng> we've just reserved that problem, because we don't have any idea about it's necessity. maybe we can just give up to make Korean esolang wiki
18:42:45 <Gs30ng> really few people know about esolang here
18:42:57 <kipple> that goes for everywhere
18:43:12 <Aardwolf> how many people know about esoteric languages in general? :p
18:43:56 <Gs30ng> i mean, like, there's about 48 million people in Korea, but like 10~20 people have heard about esolang
18:44:36 <Aardwolf> maybe I'm the only one from belgium :D
18:44:44 <nooga> there are 36 mln people
18:45:01 <nooga> and maybe 2000 heard about an esolang
18:45:20 <nooga> and i think something abt 500 ppl know one
18:47:13 <Gs30ng> in Korea, that 10~20 people are aware of esolang because of Aheui, http://puzzlet.org/puzzlet/%EC%95%84%ED%9D%AC~Specification
18:47:50 <Aardwolf> I have no idea how many people in belgium know, how the heck do you count that
18:50:40 <Gs30ng> puzzlet there, the author of Aheui, is the most contributor of korean esolang society
18:51:37 <Gs30ng> i guess if we just pick out the ones who know Aheui out of korea, there will be no esolang-aware guy left
18:52:22 <Gs30ng> and that's why i and tokigun thought korean esolang wiki is currently not needed
18:53:05 <nooga> haha -> http://www.hackles.org/cgi-bin/archives.pl?request=36
18:53:11 <kipple> I know there is at least one other norwegian guy (which I've actually met in a totally unrelated setting) but probably not many more
18:55:17 <kipple> I've added a short stub article on SADOL in the wiki, but it could use some more meat...
18:55:21 <jix> i tell everyone i know about them
18:55:54 <jix> and in my city there are at least 2 that know brainfuck (including me)
18:56:13 <jix> with know i mean can program in it
18:56:36 <Gs30ng> well i can't program in bf
18:56:46 <Gs30ng> i don't actually understand [ and ]
18:57:49 <kipple> it's a while loop that repeats as long as the value at the current memory address is not zero
18:59:22 <Gs30ng> then, in a code like [++++], is ++++ not executed?
19:01:00 <Gs30ng> or should i do +[++++] if i want to skip ++++?
19:03:03 <kipple> if you do +[++++] the ++++ will be executed unless the current memory location is -1 at the start
19:03:18 <Gs30ng> then [++++] skips ++++?
19:03:59 <kipple> provided that current memory cell is 0 (which they all are when the program starts)
19:07:39 <WildHalcyon> but assuming you're on the edge of the tape, you could always go: >+++[<++++>]
19:08:41 <Gs30ng> ok... if the current cell is zero and i meet [, then i jump to next ], right?
19:09:46 <kipple> and if the current cell is non-zero and you meet ] you jump back to the corresponding [
19:10:22 <Gs30ng> so, whenever the current cell is zero and i meat [ or ], i jump. right?
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19:20:44 <kipple> no, you jump on ] when the current cell is NOT zero
19:21:28 <Gs30ng> uhm... didn't you say [++++] skips ++++?
19:21:49 <kipple> yes. because the first [ jumps past the ]
19:23:01 <Gs30ng> i don't really understand what 'jump on' means
19:23:30 <Gs30ng> you mean if the currrent cell is non-zero and i meet ] then i jump?
19:23:42 <Gs30ng> or if the currrent cell is non-zero and i meet [ then i jump?
19:24:55 <kipple> [++++] in pseudo code:
19:24:56 <kipple> while (current cell is not 0) add 4 to current cell
19:41:35 <WildHalcyon> Hmm, Ive been link hopping from that comic and came across a photo taken by Wouter. Cool!
19:43:09 <WildHalcyon> I think if anyone should be the esolang mascot, it should be Wouter. In an armadillo costume.
19:43:38 <Gs30ng> Wouter the author of FALSE?
19:43:46 <Gs30ng> i should look up wikipedia
19:45:51 <Gs30ng> hmm. wikipedia says FALSE inspired the esolang stuffs
19:46:04 <kipple> it was the main inspiration for brainfuck I think
19:47:55 <Aardwolf> anyone ever saw this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Esoteric_programming_language_related/Detail
19:49:44 <kipple> yes. it was voted down
19:50:07 <kipple> it's one of the reasons we started our own wiki though
19:50:24 <Aardwolf> I'm glad it got started, much more freedom than on wikipedia
19:50:40 <kipple> becuase I kind of agree that most of the esolangs does not belong in the wikipedia
19:51:28 <Aardwolf> well, I'm probably not going to add my next languages to wikipedia anymore, since there's esolang now anyway
19:51:52 <Gs30ng> here it's 4 o'clock in the morning
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19:52:31 <kipple> nighttime is hacking time ;)
19:53:23 <kipple> I'm currently working from home as a programmer, and have adopted the night shift
19:54:12 <kipple> the problem with working from home is that there are so many distractions....
19:54:50 <Aardwolf> distractions for me are patiance, mine sweeper and the internet :s
19:57:59 <kipple> IRC is of course a common distraction
19:59:04 <WildHalcyon> Gah, that vote for deletion page is driving me up the wall. One guy's entire vote consists of finding all google pages on a language that dont mention wikipedia and thefreedictionary
19:59:37 <Aardwolf> yeah I know, and he searched with quotes
19:59:43 <Aardwolf> with programming language behind the name
20:00:51 <WildHalcyon> He didnt even care about historical significance in a more obscure light. Like lineage, uniqueness, etc.
20:16:12 <WildHalcyon> Ah well. The languages are esoteric. Dealing with the lack of knowledge is bound to bring some problems.
20:18:17 <Aardwolf> Someone put the TAXI programming language on wikipedia, and it got deleted because someone thought it was advertising for a game
20:19:13 <WildHalcyon> I didnt think it was a great language, so I get to laugh a lot at that.
20:21:04 <WildHalcyon> I guess my lack of enthusiasm was due to the fact that I thought the language had a more mathematical construct.. like being based on Taxicab Geometry
20:26:47 <Aardwolf> AEGH!!!! so many compiler errors
20:31:04 <cpressey> esolangs and wikipedia just don't mix.
20:32:20 <Aardwolf> there are weirder things that that on wikipedia
20:32:37 <Aardwolf> just today I encountered an article devoted to Glich City, which is a bug in some pokemon game
20:33:23 <kipple> I like that the wikipedia contains that kind of info
20:33:58 <Aardwolf> Hello world program in esoteric languages <--- do we have something like this in esolang?
20:34:27 <kipple> feel free to make it so
20:34:50 <kipple> if you make a page, contributions will probably come
20:35:01 <Aardwolf> I'll add a few and let the rest come :)
20:37:46 <cpressey> Aardwolf: weird, perhaps, but in a game series that has sold something like 100 million copies...
20:39:58 <cpressey> the thing that gets me the most about wikipedia is the inherent bias towards pop/internet culture
20:42:57 <Aardwolf> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Hello_world_program_in_esoteric_languages <--- is it possible to get the code snippets in colored tables, like here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hello_world_program_in_esoteric_languages
20:50:00 <WildHalcyon> hehehe... I see wierd though. I never knew someone wrote Hello World in Wierd.
20:50:30 <kipple> I don't get the colored tables either....
20:51:16 <Aardwolf> I mean the grey box in which the code is drawn, as opposed to a white background
20:51:39 <kipple> but your page looks exactly the same as the wikipedia page
20:52:11 <Aardwolf> weird, I see a grey box behind the code snippets in wikipedia, a grey box with a blue dotted border around it
20:52:17 <Aardwolf> oh well it's not that important
20:52:27 <kipple> yes. And I see the same in the esolang wiki
20:52:56 <kipple> perhaps because you are not using the same skin on esolang as me (I use the MonoBook skin)
20:53:09 <Aardwolf> I see it against a white background
20:53:24 <kipple> change skin to monobook.
20:53:31 <kipple> the default one looks awful IMHO
20:54:09 <kipple> Yeah, we should petition Graue to change it
20:54:33 <kipple> Graue: If you read the logs, I vote for changing the default skin to MonoBook
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21:00:04 <nooga> hey, guys -> http://www.regedit.risp.pl/BDSM/
21:00:16 <nooga> BDSM -> Badly Developed SADOL Machine
21:00:24 <nooga> a Complete implementation
21:04:56 <nooga> my friend wrote it in a secret
21:07:38 <nooga> g2g, this interpreter is complete
21:07:46 <nooga> you may play if you want
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21:17:58 <WildHalcyon> Im out of here as well. I have an exciting 6 hours of the worst job ever to look forward to
21:18:29 <kipple> worst job ever? now I'm curious
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21:57:30 <calamari> it's nice to know that reading the log can cause Mozilla to crash my entire login session :)
21:59:27 <calamari> Graue: also a vote for Monobook as the default
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23:43:43 <Aardwolf> if a language can emulate brainfuck, it's turing complete, right?
23:57:58 <calamari> can it emulate bf with unbounded memory?
23:58:35 <calamari> (not talking about a specific implementation of the language, just theoretically)
23:59:08 <Aardwolf> if it has unbounded memory, it can emulate bf with unbounded memory
23:59:34 <calamari> that's what I was getting at :)