00:00:36 <WildHalcyon> There are lots of stupid jokes. several are esolangs
00:01:18 <WildHalcyon> Then again, SOME esolangs are so cool, it makes me poop my pants
00:02:10 <WildHalcyon> Have you heard of a language called Frink?
00:02:22 <WildHalcyon> Its an engineering language, every calculation keeps track of units
00:02:51 <WildHalcyon> among other features (arbitrary-precision floats)
00:04:58 <WildHalcyon> I think it could be refined better... I'd try redesigning it myself, but personally, Im having enough trouble with my esolang. Ive settled on a name, now if only I could decide on some syntax issues
00:06:06 <WildHalcyon> I have a sort of sandbox syntax, but its not ready for the public, since its still fairly undefined and messy
00:06:39 <nooga> now i think that SADOL programs are looking very cool :D
00:07:04 <nooga> ~q1:i0:n##_0-01@|<in=in?>###_0i-010q##_0i!##_0i qP
00:07:10 <WildHalcyon> Yeah, your language is definitely coming together nicely
00:07:24 <WildHalcyon> Let me know when you've implemented a complex GUI system and some networking ;-)
00:08:18 <nooga> i thought about macros
00:08:59 <nooga> you know, the basic ones, like include, define..
00:09:36 <WildHalcyon> That stuff always seemed unclean. I felt dirty after programming in C for too long. Had to take a shower
00:11:41 <WildHalcyon> Okay, Im joking, but seriously... C bothered me a lot. C++ didn't help. Java makes me ill. Im just not meant for normal programming languages
00:12:55 <WildHalcyon> Im trying to keep everything in my language as orthogonal as possible. Im sacrificing things such as conventional notions of I/O and keeping the language fairly small
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01:58:40 <nooga> Wildhalcyon: cycling :>
02:18:40 <Wildhalcyon> I can't help it. My retarded ISP is like "you dont really want to be online anymore..."
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02:31:30 <nooga> i was swiching to linux
03:11:02 <nooga> i must catch tokigun
03:13:03 <nooga> that reminds me one song
03:13:57 <Wildhalcyon> reminds me of.. the gingerbread man, I guess. Could be a pink floyd song. Im less familiar with them than I ought to be
03:19:07 <nooga> "...take a couple if you wish... there are on the dish..."
03:22:26 <Wildhalcyon> How would you feel about an OO-like language that allowed a member of one object to belong to belong to another object as well?
03:23:46 <Wildhalcyon> Im not quite sure how I feel about this yet.. just trying some ideas out today
03:24:01 <nooga> may be interesting
03:24:40 <Wildhalcyon> Im not even super-clear on where Im trying to go with everything right now. The spec is a real mess... :-(
03:25:21 <nooga> it's hard to invent something new
03:25:56 <nooga> cool ideas are mostly coming when you're far away from computer
03:26:45 <Wildhalcyon> Its not that I don't have a good idea.. its that I dont have good ideas on how to implement the good idea. And then Im trying to union that with ANOTHER good idea... and neither is really going well
03:27:30 <nooga> Wildhalcyon You'll never catch him
03:27:30 <nooga> Wildhalcyon he's the gingerbread man
03:27:38 <tokigun> (i'm using irc proxy so i'm always connected to server but i cannot answer always.)
03:28:09 <Wildhalcyon> Thats quite alright Tokigun. Your silence speaks volumes
03:28:30 <tokigun> nooga: SADOL implementation is not finished... :S
03:28:51 <nooga> i just tried to ask about that
03:29:06 <nooga> i don't even dare to suspect that it's done
03:29:40 <nooga> what have you implemented?
03:30:11 <tokigun> dynamic typing system is almost implemented, but language isn't.
03:30:33 <tokigun> (i had to implement them yesterday but i was so busy...)
03:30:37 <nooga> i've almost finished SADOL's site -> http://nooga.int.pl/sadol/
03:30:50 <Wildhalcyon> Alright, Im going to go back to the drawing board. I think the syntax for multiple function labels will be too complex - especially for use in a digital organism simulation. bbl
03:31:35 <nooga> And i've found something on o'reilly :D -> http://nooga.int.pl/sadol/sadol.jpg
03:32:30 <tokigun> nooga: '"1% should return 37?
03:34:16 <tokigun> in the example, ',237 returns "%". but it can be parsed as "ASCII code of character ','(comma)".
03:35:17 <tokigun> you'd better change the example ;)
03:35:44 <nooga> im lost in my own language
03:46:12 <nooga> !"7SADOL\n@1(3!"2> `;0!"2\n
03:46:37 <nooga> a SADOL interactional interpreter written in SADOL :)
03:47:23 <int-e> viola is a musical instrument.
03:47:33 <nooga> okay, i'll remember
03:58:16 <nooga> tokigun: and remember - WORK!!! >:D
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05:12:26 <Wildhalcyon> Why do people have to take a great idea and add so much fluff that it makes the great idea freakin' pointless?
05:37:09 <tokigun> i'm testing dynamic typing system. sometimes it makes memory leak.. :(
05:41:37 <Wildhalcyon> Hmm, yeah.. that'll do it. Im not a big malloc guru
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06:14:10 <nooga> my stupid dog has woken me up
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06:50:41 <tokigun> yeah, dynamic typing system is done.
06:50:48 <tokigun> http://tokigun.dnip.net/.local/work/Works/esolang/sadol/dyntype.c
06:51:01 <tokigun> it's time to implement SADOL itself...
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07:41:30 <Gs30ng> well i found a little typo on your SADOL page
07:41:49 <Gs30ng> Arhitmetical -> Arithmetical
07:43:11 <Gs30ng> well top of 'A table of SADOL's built-in functions.' thing
07:44:08 <Gs30ng> i think you've made pretty darn spiffy language
07:45:37 <Gs30ng> and i also love your nickname. 'nooga', in Korean, my native language, means 'Who is' or 'Who does'
07:47:13 <Gs30ng> like, 'Who moved my cheese?' is 'Nooga nae cheese-reul omgyosulka?' in Korean
07:49:38 <nooga> no, it's random :)
07:49:53 <nooga> random letters hehe
07:50:43 <nooga> but in Polish 'noga' means 'a leg', and when you try to pronounce 'nooga' it sounds like 'noga' in Polish :)
07:50:50 <nooga> that's a funny thing
07:58:16 <Gs30ng> Would anybody tell me who possess the domain http://www.esolangs.org?
07:59:33 <Gs30ng> i and tokigun are considering making an esolang wiki in Korean, and thought that the domain like ko.esolangs.org will be good
07:59:47 <Gs30ng> so i'd like to ask the owner to...
07:59:55 <Gs30ng> ...er, what's wrong, puzzlet?
07:59:56 <puzzlet> isn't the wiki redirects to esoteric.voxelperfect.net?
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08:00:27 <puzzlet> try http://esolangs.org/wiki and you'll be redirected to another domain
08:00:33 <tokigun> puzzlet: redirection? i think it was URL rewriting
08:00:40 <puzzlet> that probably means esolangs.org isn't encouraged
08:00:59 <Gs30ng> well it goes to http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_Page
08:01:09 <Gs30ng> when i try esolangs.org/wiki
08:01:22 <tokigun> Gs30ng: but http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page doesn't redirect
08:02:05 <Gs30ng> i still can see the main page of the wiki, clearly
08:02:48 <Gs30ng> source code conversation
08:03:05 <tokigun> how about hmm language? :)
08:03:16 <nooga> tokigun: that code looks good :)
08:03:25 <nooga> i mean the sadol.c
08:03:38 <Gs30ng> puzzlet, does esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page not work on your machine?
08:04:10 <Gs30ng> then i think there's no problem with using ko.esolangs.org
08:04:44 <Gs30ng> i'd like to ask the owner to give us that domain
08:05:05 <puzzlet> how about making the wiki first?
08:05:41 <Gs30ng> well we can progress the things like in multi-threaded machine
08:06:04 <Gs30ng> like, i look for domain, tokigun look for account...
08:06:29 <puzzlet> why are you guys planning making a wiki when there's no server to place it?
08:06:29 <Gs30ng> tokigun, didn't you say Daybreaker could support it?
08:06:42 <tokigun> Gs30ng: but i couldn't contact hime
08:06:55 <Gs30ng> puzzlet: Where theres a will, theres a way.
08:08:48 <Gs30ng> since wikipedia is in multiple languages, esolang wiki could be, i think
08:09:38 <Gs30ng> tokigun: hmm language is good but there's no new concept or difference from moo language
08:10:35 <tokigun> yeah... i have some concept but i'm not sure it can be really used.
08:17:03 <puzzlet> moo language, ook language...
08:18:27 <Gs30ng> well actual source code in it will be really funny
08:19:06 <puzzlet> we can make up "WAV language" where rises and falls of sound waves are converted to brainfuck
08:19:23 <Gs30ng> a code performs 99 bottles of bear in hmm language
08:19:32 <Gs30ng> hmm.... hmm.. Hmm........
08:20:04 <Gs30ng> it really makes me roll on the floor
08:21:18 <Gs30ng> oh my god! 99 grizzly bears!
08:23:47 <Gs30ng> ...in bottle, don't scare me at all.
08:24:29 <nooga> where are you from puzzlet ?
08:24:52 <Gs30ng> that's something we wonder for several years
08:25:01 <Gs30ng> but still nobody knows
08:25:48 <puzzlet> nooga, same from Gs30ng and tokigun
08:34:39 <nooga> brb -> switching to windows
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08:51:55 <jix> i'm grouped...
08:51:58 <jix> moin Gs30ng
09:07:36 <tokigun> nooga: hmm... i have a question about SADOL.
09:08:20 <tokigun> days ago you said "+2zblahblahblha.... is correct statement. right?
09:08:59 <nooga> even if it's a float it should be rounded ;p
09:09:11 <tokigun> then how about ~X1"+2#_0blahblahblahblah.... ?
09:09:43 <tokigun> then interpreter cannot determine an end of function definition
09:10:50 <nooga> then we shouldn't do such things ;p
09:11:41 <tokigun> nooga: then the number or arguments or characters should be represented using 0..9 and , s?
09:11:48 <jix> undefined behavior is your friend
09:11:58 <nooga> try to write ][-][-[][[>],[>]]]<[[>][[[] in brainfuck ;p
09:13:17 <jix> not tje BF program
09:13:26 <jix> hoodwink'd works
09:13:54 <jix> http://redhanded.hobix.com/ << this is a ruby blog of a truly esoteric guy
09:14:36 <jix> there you can get all informations you need about hoodwink'd (2 blahhg posts)
09:20:15 <tokigun> determining an end of function definition seems very hard, in my opinion.
09:21:44 <jix> haha it's just cooool
09:22:38 <tokigun> nooga: i just forgot whether function can be redefined or cannot. :S
09:24:01 <tokigun> already defined function can be redefined?
09:25:41 <nooga> in my implementation it can
09:27:46 <tokigun> then: function X is defined with 2 arguments, function Y is defined and uses function X, function X is redefined with 3 arguments. how about this case?
09:28:33 <Gs30ng> anybody understood him?
09:29:45 <Gs30ng> tokigun, you mean initially function X is defined to get 2 arguments? am i getting you?
09:30:25 <tokigun> as you know, my english is not good ;)
10:06:40 <nooga> tokigun: r u writing now? :P
10:12:46 <tokigun> nooga: i think the number of arguments (as 3 in $3abc) should be a number, not variable. agree?
10:13:46 <tokigun> (function redefinition makes a mess but it doesn't affect function defintion. it just changes an end of function.)
10:13:50 <Gs30ng> variable number of arguments will cause a lot of problems
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11:46:59 <Keymaker> ha! bought pizza so i finally got a new rubberband
11:50:15 <Keymaker> nooga: definitely interesting looking programming book x)
11:50:21 <Keymaker> much better than the ones with some animals
11:50:52 <jix> haha it's hard to type if you tie your right-hand-fingers together
11:51:17 <jix> its really hard
11:51:52 <jix> if you tourn your keyboard 180° its even harder!
11:53:42 <jix> i didi that and i dont f ind ,H-üöh+
11:53:42 <Keymaker> well, i won't bother with that :)
11:54:09 <jix> back to normal mode
12:11:07 <Gs30ng> we're trying to make an esolang wiki in Korean
12:38:50 <Keymaker> hmm.. no new mail.. no new mail.. no new mail.. all the three boxes fine. :p
12:43:42 <jix> Gs30ng: i can't read Korean
12:44:26 <Gs30ng> well since you are a non-english-native too, i thought this could inspire you in some way
12:44:48 <Gs30ng> like, esolang wiki in German?
12:54:08 <Keymaker> both of the german esoprogrammers would be happy :)
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13:21:49 <jix> moin Crest
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15:30:21 <Gs30ng> that's not a GLOBAL notice
15:30:28 <Gs30ng> because it's not afternoon here
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20:01:10 <calamari> hmm.. did the wiki just go down?
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20:40:11 <Aardwolf> Hey, is a language still considered esoteric if it contains high level commands like quickSort, getDeterminant, matrix multiplication, etc...? :)
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21:04:30 <GregorR> Aardwolf: C was esoteric until it started being used. "Esoteric" basically means that it's only interesting to a select group. If it makes it big, sorry, but it loses its esoteric status ;). Otherwise, you're safe.
21:06:47 <GregorR> It would be especially interesting if it /only/ provided high-level functions and required that operations such as addition and subtraction be carried out by taking advantage of side effects :P
21:09:48 <Aardwolf> It would be cool if someone made a language harder than malbolge
21:13:38 <WildHalcyon> I shall possibly endeavour to do so. Although Malbolge wasn't even necessarily designed to be TC, it just happened by chance
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21:41:55 <GregorR> Oh, btw, here's a language harder than malbolge: Every block separated by ; has to have the md5sum from a table of instructions + the instruction number.
21:42:06 <GregorR> The md5sums map to BF commands, for example.
21:44:22 <calamari> raven: doesn't look like I'll be entering this year.. lost motivation as I'd feared
21:45:57 <{^Raven^}> calamari: not sure i will be either but I'm gonna try - only restarted work on game today
21:47:10 <calamari> "2k" (10k) adventure game competition
21:47:52 <calamari> the idea is to build a text adventure in very little code
21:48:22 <{^Raven^}> using maximum of 2899 bytes code 8192 bytes data
21:49:13 <WildHalcyon> out of curiousity, what would be considered unreasonable?
21:49:53 * {^Raven^} just finished a 120 byte CCC1 decompressor
21:50:31 <{^Raven^}> a language that requires a huge runtime interpreter that you wrote especially for the purpose would be out
21:50:33 <calamari> lang for a system that isn't emulated / unavailable (can't test the game).. or using some special language you made that helps you cheat and get the size down.. probably cheating.
21:51:03 <calamari> what kinds of compression ratios you get with CCC1?
21:51:38 <calamari> Noting a-z and a few punctuations gives 8:5 compression for very little
21:54:04 <{^Raven^}> about 26% compression which gives me about an extra 2.8K of data
21:54:55 <Aardwolf> what if the difference between code and data isn't clear?
21:54:55 <{^Raven^}> I might add dictionary compression aswell to give me a better compression ratio
21:55:21 <calamari> aardwolf: then you don't mention it and nobody will know ;)
21:56:14 <calamari> but it may hurt you as far as descriptions goes.. need space for text
21:57:12 <{^Raven^}> but may add in functionality if you are running out of code space
21:57:43 <Aardwolf> try programming an intelligent text-adventure-creator that will create it's own endless adventure :D
21:58:03 <calamari> already have that.. called Moria :)
21:58:40 <calamari> nethack, larn, rogue, adom, etc
21:58:55 <{^Raven^}> or !Billion which has a game a night until the 27,399th centuary
21:59:35 <WildHalcyon> Im working on a good angband variant for my language... we'll see if it works
22:00:09 <WildHalcyon> I can't promise to keep it under 10K though
22:00:20 <calamari> the thing that always seemed lacking in roguelikes was multiplayer
22:01:04 <calamari> there have been some.. didn't really encourage cooperation though
22:01:38 <calamari> although they are closer to a text adventure :)
22:02:24 <calamari> I made a graphical interface for a mud once.. almost got banned for "cheating"
22:02:30 <GregorR> MUDs are very much like text adventure games.
22:02:47 <GregorR> Whereas rogues are predecessors to 2D RPGs.
22:03:05 <calamari> it was cool too, because you could type a town name and it'd figure out the shortest nnumber of moves to get you there
22:03:33 <calamari> probably why they didn't like it.. that and the filled out map
22:03:55 <GregorR> Most MUDs are fine with mapping nowadays *shrugs*
22:04:01 <jix> who is talking about compression?
22:04:30 <jix> a simple one is mtf with rice
22:04:42 <calamari> GregorR: btw.. see the log from a few days ago for some IRP ;)
22:04:42 <jix> or rice alike
22:05:19 <jix> mtf + huffman is even better
22:05:22 <{^Raven^}> jix: can the decompression routine be written in under 320 bytes of code?
22:05:28 <jix> {^Raven^}: depends
22:05:43 <jix> on language / computer
22:06:15 <{^Raven^}> jix: my ccc1 decoder is 120 bytes and my dictonary decoder is 240ish
22:06:25 <jix> {^Raven^}: what is ccc1?
22:06:38 <jix> i know many compressions but never saw ccc1
22:06:45 <GregorR> calamari: Can you be more specific?
22:07:06 <calamari> gregor: nope.. let me search the last few days for IRP
22:07:22 <jix> {^Raven^}: what language do you use?
22:07:29 <{^Raven^}> jix: common character compression gives about 8:5 on lowercase only text and 4:3 on mixed text
22:08:31 <jix> for what platforms there is an interpreter for it?
22:08:52 <calamari> raven: ahh so what I mentioned was ccc1? hehe cool
22:09:17 <{^Raven^}> RISC OS, BBC Micro (Addon), Windows and on Unix under Wine
22:09:34 <jix> i have none of them
22:09:36 <GregorR> Aha, found your response :)
22:10:00 <calamari> 5 bits = 32 characters - 26 (a-z), leaves 6 for punctuation. Can do auto first letter capitalization of sentences
22:10:13 <calamari> what day was it? I didn't find it :)
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22:10:48 <{^Raven^}> calamari: Mine will do anything in ASCII range 00-126 but is optimised for lowercase
22:11:06 <jix> i'm going to implement a mtf+rice-like compression in ruby
22:11:15 <{^Raven^}> calamari: 10 most common characters are encoded in 4 bits
22:11:20 <GregorR> Hey, I just realized something that IRP is especially good for!
22:11:47 <GregorR> Someone please write "This sentence is grammatically correct." in Español.
22:12:06 <GregorR> (/me thinks: the world's best online translator!)
22:12:42 <jix> i can't speak/write Español
22:15:34 <GregorR> Web translation was never easier ( ... for me :P)
22:16:28 <jix> (100% non error-free translation to korean:) 이 형은 문법적으로 정확하다. please tell me what i wrote!
22:16:48 <calamari> babelfish says: "that phrase is correct grammarly"
22:17:43 <calamari> jix: you wrote: i009D' i00980095i.. etc ;)
22:18:02 <calamari> WildHalcyon: yeah I thin kyou got it right
22:18:32 <WildHalcyon> I may not speak GREAT spanish, but I know how to use my dictionary right ;-)
22:18:43 <calamari> wonder why it said "that" instead of "this"
22:19:46 <GregorR> I'm beginning to lose confidence in this translation program :P
22:20:04 <WildHalcyon> It should be esta frase es correcto gramaticalmente
22:21:22 <calamari> Someone please tell me if my program halts.. (just kidding) ;)
22:21:31 <Aardwolf> My font is so screwed up, I see squares with 4 small hex numbers in each square, instead of korean characters
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22:22:15 <GregorR> {^Raven^}: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/IRP
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22:22:54 <jix> {^Raven^}: is there any chance i can run your programs on my mac ppc computer?
22:24:48 <{^Raven^}> jix: probably not unless you have Windows or RISC OS emulator available
22:25:32 <GregorR> Or you could compile from source. Oh, wait, NEVER MIND.
22:25:51 <jix> {^Raven^}: hmm..
22:26:05 <jix> RISC OS runs on arm based computer right?
22:26:56 <{^Raven^}> jix: yeah. there's lots of emulators available Red Squirrel is a good free (Windows) one
22:27:10 <Aardwolf> I made a brainfuck clone called brainloller, it's exactly the same as brainfuck except that the commands are read from pixels of a png file and you can make 90 degree turns so that you can give the code certain shapes in the image. It's possible to put brainfuck code hidden in a picture. Is it worth publishing this?
22:28:51 <calamari> aardwolf: one thing I managed to do with Microsoft BMP bitmaps is embed asm code into the palette that ran the interpreter. Maybe you can do something similar so it can be an executable :)
22:29:49 <calamari> I'd try it with JPg, but I never really studied the format
22:31:48 <Aardwolf> jpg is lossy, impossible to put code in that
22:31:52 <Aardwolf> I uploaded it here: http://www.student.kuleuven.ac.be/~m0216922/brainloller/
22:31:59 <Aardwolf> the explanation is in main.cpp
22:32:40 <Aardwolf> haha a BMP executable, that sounds ownage :)
22:34:47 <GregorR> If you really, /really/ understood the compression format, you could put code in a lossy image format.
22:35:24 <GregorR> Or you could make gigantic 100% quality jpegs 8-D
22:36:21 <Aardwolf> Well now you can compress your brainfuck code in pngs :D
22:39:12 <jix> Aardwolf: you can put code in jpeg
22:39:24 <jix> by modifying the lower bit of the encoded frequencies
22:39:52 <jix> png is cool
22:41:25 <Aardwolf> I'll port some brainfuck program to brainloller so that there's at least an example
22:46:21 <jix> mandelbrot!
22:46:50 <jix> i know someone who knows someone who knows mandelbrot!
22:46:55 <GregorR> Good because it's using graphics to represent text code that uses text to represent graphical output :)
22:47:24 <jix> GregorR: what?
22:48:10 <GregorR> That you know someone who knows someone who knows Mandelbrot.
22:48:16 <GregorR> Though I guess he is not a deity, and does exist :P
22:50:01 <jix> GregorR: it's true!
22:51:22 <jix> the one who knows mandelbrot is heinz-otto peitgen
22:51:32 <jix> he works at the university of bremen
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23:19:27 <Aardwolf> Fixed a bug and made hello.png for brainloller
23:24:21 <WildHalcyon> You might be able to do it with lossless wavelet compression. Harr wavelets would be the easiest...
23:26:38 <WildHalcyon> For my senior design project as a EE major, I made an audio watermarking program. I lost the code, but its not hard to redevelop. You could turn that to a bf encoder as well.
23:27:07 <Aardwolf> it can be hidden in anything :D
23:27:35 <WildHalcyon> Well, brainloller couldn't be (90 degree turns are.. tricky), but bf could.
23:28:52 <Aardwolf> the 90 degree turns can safely be ignored when converting from brainloller back to 1D, all they do is tell where the next code will be, they don't change anything to the behaviour
23:29:26 <WildHalcyon> Okay, well that doesn't change much at least
23:36:13 <kipple> hmm. the wiki seems to be down
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