00:04:27 <kipple> what's this Moxie thing?
00:05:10 <GregorR> It's like the ORIGINAL soda.
00:05:16 <GregorR> They only sell it in Maine, but I found a distributor.
00:05:46 <GregorR> http://www.metrocast.net/~moxieman/WhatIs.html
00:06:20 <kipple> found it in the 'pedia
00:06:58 <kipple> interesting. the word moxie comes from the drink, and not the other way around :)
00:10:38 <kipple> amazing what you can learn on #esoteric
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00:25:39 <GregorR> kipple: I think Moxie pretty well fits the definition of an esoteric soda ;)
00:26:50 <kipple> but according to wikipedia it is the official state soft drink of Maine.... not so esoteric
00:27:12 <calamari> been implementing NULL for EsoShell
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00:57:07 <GregorR> Of course you do, it's awesome.
00:57:45 <GregorR> RealSoda has retailers all over the USA it turns out :-P
00:59:44 <Wildhalcyon> Hmmm, judging by their site, "all over" is limited to the western states
01:00:15 <GregorR> http://www.moxie.info/njmox.htm
01:00:31 <GregorR> I don't know how close to you either of those cities are *shrugs*
01:01:09 <Wildhalcyon> not very close considering its new jersey...
01:01:40 <Wildhalcyon> There's a nearby one in north carolina though!
01:03:56 <Wildhalcyon> Oh, I know where the store is, which is surprising, since my knowledge of the area in and around my city is *very* limited.
01:13:51 <twobitsprite> heh, right on... how long you been in the area?
01:18:33 <twobitsprite> yeah... see, I"m up here from FL, so it's the winters that kill me...
01:20:06 <Wildhalcyon> Winters are a little colder here, compared with Seattle, but just barely
01:22:47 <Wildhalcyon> Well, apparently a lot of people expect Seattle to be like 10 degrees in the winter
01:26:29 * twobitsprite wonders when someone's going to complain about the off-topic convo :P
01:27:35 <Wildhalcyon> Well, apparently the "topic" is the archives (not that Im complaining about the handy archive link)
01:37:02 <Wildhalcyon> Im trying to read this paper concerning my esolang, but I honestly can't make heads or tails of it. They use (and fail to explain) a lot of terminology, and wikipedia is only helping so much
01:43:22 <Wildhalcyon> Well, it looks like it was a phd thesis paper...
01:43:49 <twobitsprite> that would explain it... someone was trying to impress thier prof...
01:43:55 <lament> twobitsprite: this is #esoteric. Only complaints about on-topic convo are accepted
01:44:46 <lament> oh yeah? Then I challenge you to a duel!
01:46:03 <Wildhalcyon> Does anyone know anything about the density of regular languages?
01:47:59 <Wildhalcyon> I think it has to do with how many strings are in a language v. how many ways to make those strings.. or something
01:50:49 <Wildhalcyon> http://www.cs.uwaterloo.ca/journals/JIS/VOL8/Moreira/moreira8.pdf This is the paper Im looking at, the reference to density is on page 3.
01:51:38 <Wildhalcyon> I guess not. It seems to just be saying "the number of strings in the language"
01:53:38 <Wildhalcyon> in the sense that it doesn't seem to be a density from what Im used to of the term..
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01:59:06 <{^Raven^}> calamari: at the posted closing of entries just the two
01:59:11 <{^Raven^}> lament: i hope the comp.lang.c topic police don't join #esoteric
02:01:31 <lament> on the contrary, they're quite welcome to
02:01:48 <lament> provided they stay off-topic, of course :)
02:02:44 * {^Raven^} tries to imagine a significant proportion of clc exploding with indignation
02:02:59 <calamari> cool.. I've completely busted up EsoShell with all my changes :)
02:03:18 <calamari> don't expect any new versions for a while, lol
02:04:03 <{^Raven^}> excellent, that makes me feel better about forgetting the easel implementation specs (good thing I actually documented it:)
02:04:19 <calamari> kipple: more powerful console (move around, character attributes), binary files, filesystem program loader, etc
02:04:44 <calamari> it seems that many of these things are interrelated
02:05:13 <calamari> so I get partway into writing one then I have to change something else
02:06:05 <calamari> one of the things that I really want to do is change the shell into a program just like everything else
02:06:28 <calamari> that will open up the possibility of shell scripts
02:06:57 <{^Raven^}> i've been wanting to give PESOIX the concept of disk images that can be manipulated using your EsoAPI
02:07:28 <calamari> then the binary i/o will be handy
02:08:00 <kipple> calamari: you might as well implement the linux kernel right away. Seems like that's where you're going :D
02:09:44 <{^Raven^}> i'm off to bed, hopefully will have some more time to work on PESOIX soon
02:10:42 * {^Raven^} is writing a smallish compiler that targets eight languages atm
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04:15:17 * Wildhalcyon understands now. Density of a language = number of strings in the language
04:15:37 <kipple> what does that mean? number of strings?
04:16:20 <Wildhalcyon> it means the number of strings, like "a", "b", "ab", "abababab"... etc
04:17:01 <Wildhalcyon> the paper I was reading was concerned with finite language -> languages that have a finite number of strings in them
04:17:19 <kipple> aha. wouldn't most languages be practically infinite?
04:18:40 <Wildhalcyon> well, many are, but there's plenty of finite ones as well
04:19:22 <Wildhalcyon> Even though run-on sentences are a problem, english is infinite
04:24:14 <kipple> do you have an example of a finite language?
04:26:19 <kipple> befunge 93 would be finite because the code size is restricted. am I right?
04:26:50 <kipple> and any Turing complete language would automatically be infinite
04:26:56 <Wildhalcyon> although its very large, you're right, it is finite
04:27:23 <Wildhalcyon> the strings within glypho are finite - there are 15 of them
04:27:32 <kipple> befunge 93 codespace is only 80x25 cells. not very large
04:28:03 <Wildhalcyon> yes, but you have lots of symbol combinations within it
04:28:39 <kipple> but how is glypho finite? you can combine the 15 strings in an infinite number of ways, cant you?
04:29:27 <Wildhalcyon> glypho itself is infinite, but the individual strings are not
04:30:05 <kipple> well I don't think there are any languages where individual words have infinite length...
04:31:07 <kipple> do you have an example of such a word?
04:31:19 <kipple> (that was a joke by the way)
04:31:32 <Wildhalcyon> lol, good.. cause I was gonna start typin'
04:32:17 <Wildhalcyon> Anyhow, the problem I was trying to compute was the overall inefficiency of glypho.
04:33:05 <Wildhalcyon> if I have an underlying symbol set and encode it in glypho strings of length n, how much overall loss do I experience?
04:35:46 <Wildhalcyon> For the english alphabet, the efficiency is low: 15/(26^4), but for a 2-bit number (smallest possible to encode in glypho) the overall efficiency is 15/4^4= 15/16
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04:50:18 <kipple> I guess you could say that
04:50:25 <Wildhalcyon> I have been recently, but in the past, no. I guess I would like to consider myself to be a regular
04:50:52 <Arrogant> I mean, it's on my auto-join list.
04:50:54 <kipple> though addicts might be a better term
04:51:34 <kipple> me too. My computer is on all the time, except when I'm asleep, and I'm usually always on here
04:51:59 <Wildhalcyon> The first thing I do when I get back to my computer is check my email, the second thing I do is check the #esoteric logs
04:57:52 <Arrogant> Keymaker's making some sort of SECRET LANGUAGE?
04:58:51 <kipple> but he IS telling you about it. otherwise you wouldn't know
04:59:13 <GregorR> "Lose something important. Lose everything you have with the world of viruses and trojans that run on Windows!"
04:59:27 <Wildhalcyon> Good point kipple. He's told us that it exists, but withheld other details
04:59:56 <Arrogant> GregorR: I'm having trouble parsing ORK
05:00:04 <Arrogant> I don't know pyparsing very well yet though.
05:00:08 <Arrogant> So that has a lot to do with it.
05:00:09 <GregorR> I'm not surprised somehow (no offense) :)
05:00:23 <Arrogant> I need to make it look ahead to find "is to" and not parse it as part of the name :D
05:03:02 <Arrogant> This isn't a very active channel
05:03:31 <GregorR> Esoteric programming doesn't often make the front-page news either.
05:04:00 <kipple> I know of one on slashdot
05:04:19 <GregorR> It's not even entertainment news.
05:04:49 <GregorR> I know, everyone disagrees :P
05:04:54 <Arrogant> Slashdot is serious advertisement is what it is.
05:05:07 <kipple> just because most of the comments are incredibly stupid doesn't make the articles they link to stupid
05:05:19 <GregorR> I never even get anywhere near the comments.
05:05:28 <GregorR> The articles are just irrelevent and usually a waste of ones time.
05:06:13 <GregorR> This is of course all just in my (particularly negative) opinion of Slashdot.
05:06:41 <kipple> as a matter of fact, slashdot is where I first found out about esolangs
05:07:31 <kipple> someone posted a link to chris' brainfuck page
05:07:43 <Wildhalcyon> I don't know exactly where I found out about them, but I do know the first one I discovered with befunge
05:08:16 <Wildhalcyon> although, I had "heard" of intercal before, I'd never read up on it
05:08:36 <kipple> yeah, I think I'd heard about INTERCAL too before
05:09:10 <GregorR> Actually, let me change my point a bit: Slashdot /is now/ bad, but /used/ to be OK. It's gotten progressively worse over the year.
05:09:47 <lament> we're all children of slashdot
05:10:13 <GregorR> lol, I had to sit in a "Christ's Children Food Ministry" while waiting for the guy to get my Moxie.
05:10:33 <GregorR> Apparently they have a "convert and you can eat" program, which is so subversive it makes me vomit with anger.
05:11:08 <Wildhalcyon> You dont happen to know what church is sponsoring this, do you?
05:11:18 <kipple> you mean they only serve believers?
05:11:21 <GregorR> I spent as little time in there as possible.
05:11:39 <lament> but it would turn all christians against them
05:11:41 <GregorR> Well, it's a charity, they could give stuff to whoever they pleased.
05:11:42 <kipple> wouldn't that be religous discrimination
05:12:15 <Wildhalcyon> its no more discrimination than african-american scholarships are discrimination
05:12:34 <GregorR> Less so, because it's a changeable (sort of) feature.
05:12:42 <kipple> so, if someone starts a charity that only gives to white people, that would be legal? I find that hard to believe
05:13:09 <GregorR> kipple: Would you consider a charity that will only give to African American's to be acceptable? If so, you're a hypocrite.
05:14:05 <GregorR> Anyway, even THAT didn't damper the mood on getting Moxie ^_^
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05:14:32 -!- GregorR has changed nick to Peer.
05:14:39 <Peer> I have struck again!
05:14:45 -!- Peer has changed nick to GregorR.
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05:15:07 <Wildhalcyon> good old Firefox, how I love random errors!
05:15:27 <GregorR> Despite how I love Firefox, I have to agree.
05:15:34 <GregorR> It's not anywhere near as stable as they'd like you to believe.
05:15:42 <Arrogant> Wildhalcyon: Beta 1.5 is fun to crash
05:16:20 <Wildhalcyon> I've got 1.0.6, so.. probably doesn't crash as much as 1.5, but still, pretty regularly.
05:16:31 <Wildhalcyon> My system isn't exactly swimming with stability though.
05:16:53 * kipple uses Opera which almost never crash
05:16:59 <Wildhalcyon> I think something's brainfucked on my motherboard. Probably needs to be replaced, but until I can afford my food and rent, motherboard is on backburner
05:18:31 * Wildhalcyon is smart. Finally understands everything in the phD paper
05:19:09 <Wildhalcyon> I found a VERY educational website on formal language syntax that helped me through it
05:20:11 <Wildhalcyon> Figuring out that 11*+11*2(1+2)*+11*2(1+2)*3(1+2+3)*+11*2(1+2)*3(1+2+3)*4(1+2+3+4)* meant the 15 glypho strings was tough
05:20:41 <Wildhalcyon> Arrogant: this paper: http://www.cs.uwaterloo.ca/journals/JIS/VOL8/Moreira/moreira8.pdf
05:25:35 <Arrogant> It's got symbols that I don't understand.
05:26:46 <Wildhalcyon> I was right there with you this afternoon Arrogant
05:27:46 <Wildhalcyon> This one is worse: http://theory.csail.mit.edu/~yekhanin/Papers/acct2004_I.pdf
05:29:33 * kipple takes a brief look on the article and quickly closes it again
05:29:40 <Arrogant> Oo. Set operators that I don't remember.
05:29:48 <GregorR> I didn't even go as far as to open the article :-P
05:30:02 <GregorR> I don't want to be immasculated by a PDF.
05:30:10 <Arrogant> I'm only in High School Calculus :(
05:30:43 <Wildhalcyon> You're pretty good for only doing HS calc then arrogant. I wouldn't have even been close to understanding that in HS.
05:31:04 <Arrogant> I only know that there're some set operators
05:31:09 <Arrogant> There's plenty more that I don't understand
05:31:11 <Wildhalcyon> Now Im starting to get the hang of it. Most of this knowledge is all self-study stuff.
05:31:27 <Arrogant> I think I'll wait until I finish this year
05:31:37 <Wildhalcyon> I dont think that 2nd paper had anything useful for me in it...
05:31:56 <Arrogant> GregorR: I've decided to define names and such with SkipTo("is to") etc
05:32:21 <Arrogant> You'll be able to do "When ^!$351\n\n is to 15!!\a:" if you want to.
05:32:47 <Arrogant> The spec doesn't define what a name could be!~
05:33:24 <kipple> doesn't newlines have a special meaning though?
05:33:53 <kipple> isn't that how you separate code lines
05:38:51 <GregorR> Yeah, newlines separate code lines.
05:38:58 <GregorR> So that ought not to work.
05:39:15 <GregorR> All the other characters are fine, though using alphanumeric + _ would be consistant with the -to-C++ compiler.
05:40:35 <GregorR> BTW, you haven't exactly lived up to your nick :-P
05:43:29 <GregorR> So, if I insulted Python, presumably you would start being more arrogant?
05:44:11 <GregorR> What's with indentation being significant?! Making any whitespace significant is totally idiotic.
05:44:33 <kipple> you mean like having whitespace separate code lines?
05:44:46 <GregorR> lol, I was kidding to rile up Arrogant ;)
05:44:53 <Arrogant> Python blocks are defined by tabs kipple
05:45:08 <kipple> I was referring to whitespace in ORK
05:45:15 <GregorR> It actually enforces good coding practices, which is good.
05:45:28 <Arrogant> Makes it shitty for one-liners.
05:46:03 <GregorR> Let's just all agree that Perl is terrible and go on ;)
05:46:03 <Arrogant> It's kinda like reading an esoteric language
05:46:27 <Arrogant> print "\n".join("%(n)s%(a)s%(b)s,\n%(n)s%(a)s!\nTake one down, pass it around,\n%(m)s%(d)s%(b)s!\n"%{"n":n,"a":(n>1and" bottles"or" bottle")+" of beer","b":" on the wall","m":(n-1or"No more"),"d":(n==2and" bottle"or" bottles")+" of beer"}for n in range(99,0,-1))
05:49:21 <Wildhalcyon> I really should go too. Im not finding the info I need, and I have to be up in 6 hours
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07:20:05 <GregorR> (#esoteric: Join it for the insightful conversations!)
07:21:45 <nooga> http://www.deepwood.net/~drlion/snusp/sample-code.snusp << looks like a plan of a rail station
07:24:53 <nooga> http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/projects/worb/eg/or-gate.worb << that looks like a roguelike dungeon
07:28:10 <nooga> i need to create something more interesting than SADOL
07:28:55 <calamari> how about a 3-d language, where you program with eye-crossing stereograms
07:29:42 <nooga> haha, implementation would be hard ;p
07:30:02 <nooga> cpressey creates cool languages ;p
07:36:03 <nooga> i was trying to put linux into my MP3 player :)
07:37:20 <nooga> and now it doesn't work...
07:48:15 <GregorR> Eye-crossing stereograms = unbelievably cool
07:48:19 <GregorR> Why aren't there more of them?
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08:26:42 <calamari> nooga: there are mp3 players that can run linux?
08:26:54 <nooga> and that's the point :)
08:27:14 <nooga> i tried to hack one ;p
08:29:45 <nooga> creative NOMAD MuVo NX 256 MB
08:30:11 <calamari> is the os part of the 256mb, or is it separate?
08:30:28 <calamari> I should say the mp3 player :)
08:30:53 <nooga> 256MB are for songs :-)
08:31:29 <nooga> but i tried to put old kernel there
08:32:05 <nooga> and the rest of things, like lcd driver and some stuf were in that space for songs
08:32:40 <nooga> and now i have blank mp3 player
08:34:02 <calamari> how did you rewrite that 1mb area?
08:35:31 <nooga> used a little program
08:36:14 <calamari> wonder if that'd work on a muvo^2.. it has larger storage
08:36:50 <nooga> you may try, but don't ask me
08:37:17 <nooga> i don't want to help breaking your player :D
08:37:25 <calamari> did you write that bootflasher program?
08:39:22 <GregorR> Umm, wouldn't you need to write a custom bootloader that in turn loads the kernel and put /that/ in the 1MB "kernel" space, or did you know how the internal bootloader calls the kernel and manage to set it up to be compatible?
08:39:35 <nooga> http://www.nomadness.net/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=149
08:39:55 <nooga> http://www.nomadness.net/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=MostPopular << more resources if you want
08:40:39 <nooga> maybe i'll try again
08:41:40 <calamari> btw.. how will you know if it worked sicne there is no display? :)
08:43:34 <nooga> it should print 'hello'
08:44:19 <nooga> on the player's display
08:44:33 <calamari> oh, I guess I was looking at an older model
08:45:20 <nooga> http://www.nomadworld.com/products/muvo_nx/
08:47:56 * calamari now knows what he wants for christmas :)
08:50:58 <calamari> hmm, looks liek they figured out how to hack an ipod and put linux on it too
08:52:26 <nooga> that was my inspiration
08:52:38 <nooga> i like hardware hacks
08:52:50 <nooga> like network coffee express
08:54:04 <nooga> it's connected with the local network and you can control it from your computer
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10:19:43 * grim_ has a horrible esolang idea
10:23:23 <grim_> hm, occurs to me that ALPACA might have got there first though
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12:38:21 <Wildhalcyon> Nooga, you know if it would work on a MuVo TX FM? That's what Ive got.
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21:06:19 <Wildhalcyon> Im working on my first ever TRANSCRIPT program!
21:18:24 <Wildhalcyon> Hmm, doesn't support a lot of string operations via user input :-(
21:18:34 <Wildhalcyon> and what are the global objects obj1, obj2, and obj3?
21:25:50 <jix> who owns esolangs.org?
21:26:13 <jix> i think free subdomains/sub-dns entries for esolang-ers would be coool
21:30:19 <Wildhalcyon> That wouldn't be a bad idea.. I've been looking at places to host, since I'll be graduating soon and losing my free school web space
21:30:51 <jix> i'm only talking about subdomains not webspace
21:33:05 <Wildhalcyon> True, but once I have the domain, I can get the webspace. Having a subdomain tied to the esolang would be nice.
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23:16:48 <Keymaker> GregorR: you're right; i hate slashdot too
23:18:00 <Keymaker> other site that annoys me a lot is that thinkgeek shop
23:18:39 <Keymaker> when i have time i make my own binary shirt with text "fu*k you thinkgeek, your stuff costs too much!" or something
23:19:03 <GregorR> There was a time when I would have considered buying a case of Bawls from there ..
23:19:10 <GregorR> But now that I have Moxie, who needs Bawls?!
23:19:28 <grim_> I don't know what it is exactly about thinkgeek that I dislike, but I have no use for the stuff on there and the humour doesn't appeal either
23:19:43 <grim_> oh, so hang on, that's what I dislike
23:20:23 <Keymaker> like i wouldn't pay more than 20 euros for a t-shirt with only one word
23:20:30 <Keymaker> something like "geek." or something
23:21:04 * GregorR bites off the head of a chicken.
23:21:46 * grim_ doesn't hate "geek" so much...
23:22:13 <GregorR> I'm fine with being called a geek, but only because I do quite enjoy biting off the heads of chickens.
23:22:34 <grim_> I *am* a geek... jsut not a slashdot geek or a thinkgeek geek
23:22:41 <grim_> or a sideshow geek for that matter ;)
23:23:01 <Keymaker> i'd rather take something esoteric programming shirt, of some own program
23:23:09 <Keymaker> far cooler than any thinkgeek binary message
23:23:18 * GregorR opens an Esoteric Programming Cafeshop.
23:25:49 <Keymaker> hey, wait a minute -- i have the exam thing over! soon it should be time to plan a new brainfuck competition
23:25:55 <Keymaker> or that gammaplex demo competition
23:27:49 <GregorR> Can somebody write a befunge program that outputs "REAL MEN PROGRAM IN BEFUNGE"?
23:31:00 <Keymaker> "EGNUFEB NI MARGORP NEM LAER">:#,_@
23:31:10 <Keymaker> doesn't print a new line, though
23:36:17 <GregorR> The more esoteric the better :-P
23:44:16 <GregorR> http://www.cafepress.com/esoprog.32072840
23:48:36 <Keymaker> now make the traditional thongs and other stuff that can be usually found from those cafeshops..
23:50:06 <Keymaker> btw, what does the bf program do?
23:53:40 <GregorR> REAL MEN PROGRAM IN BRAINFUCK
23:53:48 <GregorR> It's just the same as on the back.
23:54:52 <GregorR> http://www.cafepress.com/esoprog.32074529