00:22:10 -!- RoboGregorR has joined.
01:42:06 <kipple> what's this? a GregorBot to take care of IRC spamming while the real GregorR works on c2bf?
01:50:26 <kipple> any opinions on what would be a good name for my esoteric BASIC language? Current candidates are SlowBASIC and Occult Basic
01:54:35 <calamari> Occult Basic... is it secretive?
01:55:17 <kipple> occult is the opposite of visual.
01:55:32 <calamari> I suppose occult is roughly esoteric :)
01:56:26 <calamari> so yeah.. Occult Basic sounds good :)
01:57:13 * calamari notes that another layer of complexity has now been heaped upon the crypto project
01:58:09 <calamari> I decided that it wasn't cool to send the passwords in the clear across IRC.. so now I also need to implement a public-key system to securely transport the hash
02:00:36 <kipple> yeah, that might have been a small security issue...
02:00:52 <kipple> (though I have no idea what this crypto project is about)
02:01:25 <calamari> well, its usefulness decreases each time I add onto it :)
02:02:15 <calamari> EsoBot doesn't send private messages to anyone except the person that ran the program
02:02:40 <calamari> but, certain multiplayer games require secret information (what cards you have, for example)
02:03:13 <calamari> so, the challenge is to be able to play these games inside the channel
02:04:40 <calamari> right now, it'll work something like: 1) use a local program to get a hash (probably an esolang), 2) securely transfer the hash to the game using public-key crypto, 3) the game sends hash-encoded data to the channel (along with who its for) 4) decrypt locally
02:05:11 <calamari> I was hoping to use esobot for everything, but its just not secure that way
02:05:49 <calamari> and yes, of course its overboard :) hehe
02:19:25 <GregorR> I forgot to log out RoboGregorR.
02:19:29 <GregorR> But that's me on the robotics lab computer.
02:21:04 <kipple> your multiple personality disorder seems to be multiplying... ;)
02:21:45 <kipple> so, what's the deal? do each hat come with a different personality?
02:21:45 <GregorR> BTW, does anybody know what this means in C:
02:21:54 <GregorR> struct { int a : (expression); }
02:22:27 <GregorR> RoboGregorR = robotics lab
02:48:05 <fizzie> Means the integer "a" is exactly (expression) bits wide.
02:48:33 <fizzie> Or, more exactly, you are to use it as if it were (expression) bits wide.
02:49:11 <fizzie> A single bit-field in a struct does not make sense, but if you have many of them, the compiler can pack them to a single byte/word/dword/qword/whatever-unit-it-prefers.
02:50:44 <fizzie> Arguably "struct { int flag1 : 1, flag2 : 1, flag3 : 1 } ... if(foo.flag1) { foo.flag2 = 1; foo.flag3 = 0; }" is cleaner-looking than "#define FLAG1 0x01 #define FLAG2 0x02 #define FLAG3 0x04 struct { int flags; } ... if(foo.flags & FLAG1) { foo.flags |= FLAG2; foo.flags &= ~FLAG3; }"
02:51:25 <fizzie> Obviously there are drawbacks too. You can't really have treat bitfields as groups and have bitmasks with multiple set bits.
02:52:49 <GregorR> That's not going to be supported in C2BF for a LONG time ^_^
03:04:12 <GregorR> Actually, ever, since we don't even know the bitwidth of a cell *shrugs*
03:05:55 <calamari> btw, what prompted the insane thought of c2bf? :)
03:06:34 <GregorR> A few days ago is not the first time it's been brought up on c2bf.
03:06:49 <calamari> nope.. I brought it up a long time ago myself
03:06:57 <calamari> I meant for you to start working on it :)
03:07:01 <GregorR> And I know it's been brought up a few times between then too ;)
03:07:11 <GregorR> Well, I'm doing a ridiculously easy compilers class right now.
03:07:19 <GregorR> So, to keep my brain from melting, I'll do a side project.
03:07:38 <GregorR> Not a pseudocompiler in a crappy programming language for an even crappier programming language written with a crappy compiler-compiler.
03:09:39 <GregorR> OMG, LL(1) compilers rawx0r, they're so awesome I need a program to write them for me even though they're simple, roflcopter!
03:10:57 <calamari> GregorR: sounds like you're enjoying class ;)
03:11:18 <calamari> I'll be taking that class next semester
03:11:30 * kipple ponders what the guy who came up with the word roflcopter had been smoking
03:11:43 <calamari> so then maybe I'll get some bfbasic work done in a similar manner :)
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03:50:36 <GregorR> By the way, did the BASIC version of BFBASIC ever compile under BFBASIC?
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05:21:09 <calamari> I've reduced XTEA to four lines of Linguine :)
05:22:42 <GregorR> My last name is now Gichards.
05:22:45 <GregorR> That's a pretty awful last name.
05:23:07 <GregorR> Or maybe my last name is Gregory ^_^
05:23:27 <GregorR> Anyway, an ultimate goal of C2BF is to compile C2BF with C2BF :)
05:23:41 <GregorR> To that end, each component is going to be pipe-style except for the wrapper.
05:24:19 <calamari> to make your life possiobly easier, you might consider implementing a subset of c
05:24:38 <calamari> then, using that subset, build a more complete c
05:24:55 <GregorR> That's precisely what I'm doing.
05:25:06 <GregorR> The AST is set up in such a way that certain chunks could be implemented before others.
05:25:28 <calamari> have you seen the ioccc c compiler?
05:25:59 <calamari> http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/otcc/
05:26:31 <calamari> although the compiler is hard to understand.. it's probably a good subset to work with
05:27:44 <GregorR> Well, I'm starting with a much, much, MUCH smaller subset ;)
05:28:02 <GregorR> The first thing I want to try is:
05:28:11 <GregorR> int main() { asm("{some BF code}"); }
05:28:23 <calamari> I can think of a subset that directly compiles to bf :P
05:28:57 <GregorR> I don't think you could do a subset of C with no function support ...
05:29:06 <GregorR> It wouldn't be a proper subset.
05:29:46 <calamari> are you using a stack for args?
05:30:15 <calamari> do you have my 2-cell array routines?
05:30:31 <GregorR> I've implemented nothing BF-wise yet.
05:30:34 <calamari> the only other array routines I've seen are 3-cell
05:30:37 <GregorR> I'm STILL working on the bloody AST.
05:30:57 <GregorR> Oh, well, arrays in C are too different from traditional arrays to use quite any given routine ...
05:31:18 <GregorR> Because it is absolutely imperative that they be implemented as a pointer.
05:31:32 <GregorR> But the pointer math has to work as pointer math.
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05:31:54 <calamari> hmm actually, my arrays wouldn't be suited
05:31:56 <GregorR> So to jump through it, you have to find the base location, do some math on that, and then jump to the specified location.
05:32:24 <calamari> jumping to a specified location in memory isn't trivial with bf
05:32:41 <GregorR> It is when you have a quick way to get to 0 :)
05:33:03 <GregorR> And yes, I do realize that that's disgusting in its own right ;)
05:33:15 <calamari> omg.. you are going to store bits
05:33:44 <calamari> because you will need to index into the array
05:34:10 <GregorR> {stack^4} {heap^4} {stack-top} {walk^5} {carry^5}
05:34:11 <calamari> and the index will need to be >255
05:34:19 <GregorR> Yeah, there's that problem.
05:34:36 <calamari> my array routine is able to wall a 255 element array
05:34:41 <GregorR> There are routines for multi-cell math.
05:34:53 <calamari> so you will need to define the size of a pointer
05:35:08 <GregorR> That's an absolute requirement for C.
05:35:32 <calamari> err, I suppose not for large programs
05:36:05 <GregorR> It could be 16-bit, but why? :)
05:36:30 <calamari> unmless your compiler was good at keeping the numbers small
05:36:47 <calamari> even [-] on a 32-bit number would be a nightmare, much less walking an array
05:36:48 <GregorR> Well, it always builds up from 0.
05:37:11 <GregorR> [-] on a 32-bit number: [-]>[-]>[-]>[-]
05:37:46 <GregorR> I know what you mean though ;)
05:37:47 <calamari> but you might as well consider it all in one cell
05:38:30 <calamari> you could have routines that contain a huge amount of >'s
05:38:43 <calamari> but that would mean huge code bloat
05:39:07 <GregorR> Umm, I don't quite understand your suggestion ...
05:39:14 <GregorR> A chunk of code doesn't know where it is in the stack ..
05:40:12 <calamari> the other way to go with this is using a "nice" bf interpreter
05:40:25 <calamari> so that it handles 32-bit cells
05:40:52 <GregorR> Yukk ... being interpreter-specific = bad.
05:41:08 <GregorR> Though I could also compile to one-cell stuff then say "If you want it to be 32-bit, you'll need a 32-bit interp"
05:41:09 <calamari> sounds like you have a plan :)
05:41:33 <calamari> well.. what about a compiler from 32-bit cells to 8-bit
05:42:08 <GregorR> That's very interesting ...
05:42:21 <calamari> there are already interpreters that do that thing for 16->8
05:42:34 <GregorR> Ironically, that would probably be easier than doing the 32-bit math in the first step ...
05:42:59 <calamari> because it's already been done for you ;)
05:43:14 <calamari> my array routines work fine with arbitrary cell size
05:43:30 <GregorR> No, I don't think it would be acceptable to say "you have to run it through this other BF program"
05:43:39 <GregorR> It would have to be a program that turns one-cell code into two-cell code.
05:43:55 <calamari> oh, you wouldn't have to do that
05:44:16 <calamari> the part where your program would exit, it instead just runs the 32->8
05:44:27 <calamari> so it's two step but all in the compiler
05:44:36 <GregorR> Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
05:44:47 <GregorR> But the 16->8 program I thought was just a BF interp in BF ...
05:45:07 <calamari> yeah, but that's not what is wanted
05:45:43 <calamari> I think we're saying the same thing :)
05:45:50 <GregorR> Yes, I'm certain we are ;)
05:46:03 <GregorR> Basically, I need a list of transformations to turn 1-cell math into 2-cell, 4-cell, etc, math.
05:46:18 <GregorR> Or I could run it through 1->2 twice :)
05:46:49 <calamari> well, probably nest to just hardcode one-cell (32)->to 4-8
05:47:09 <calamari> the others aren't really needed, are they?
05:47:16 <calamari> or would it be handy for shorts
05:47:19 <GregorR> It would be nice to have different levels supported.
05:47:57 <GregorR> It'll slightly break the spec for max(unsigned char) != 255 ...
05:48:07 <GregorR> But I don't think it's such a significant issue that I'm worried.
05:48:16 <calamari> are you relying on cell wrapping?
05:48:24 <GregorR> I don't see how I couldn't.
05:48:31 <GregorR> Given that I don't know how big the cells will be.
05:48:32 <calamari> because that's implementation dependent as well
05:48:42 <GregorR> But the standard is wrapping.
05:48:43 <calamari> well, you can assume cells are 8-bit
05:49:18 <GregorR> How many non-wrapping interps are there...?
05:50:04 <calamari> I'm pretty sure everything can be done and stay non-wrapping
05:50:13 <GregorR> Woah, WTF, bf-golf requires non-wrapping?!?!?!?
05:50:22 <GregorR> They go out of their way to make it difficult, don't they XD
05:50:27 <GregorR> I'm sure everything can be done with non-wrapping.
05:50:34 <GregorR> But I'm also sure that it would be far more inefficient.
05:51:08 <calamari> of coourse this 32->8 thing is inefficient as well
05:51:26 <GregorR> But sort of more unavoidable ..
05:51:42 <calamari> I'd tend to agree with wrapping tho
05:51:59 <GregorR> Err, as in, you'd agree that wrapping is OK/
05:52:03 <calamari> but I've always been partial to it :)
05:52:17 <GregorR> (Incidentally, EgoBF does support non-wrapping as an option, of course :) )
05:52:20 <calamari> since thats how asm does things
05:53:21 <calamari> that means no one will try to use c2bf to win at bfgolf hehe
05:54:06 <GregorR> They would indeed lose horribly.
05:54:14 <GregorR> Unless they were the only entry ^_^
05:54:46 <GregorR> Darn, there's no 8->16 on "BF algorithms" :P
05:55:02 <calamari> well, I have > ... it's >>>> ;)
05:55:47 <calamari> it might turn out to need to be more tho, depending on if I need temp cells
05:56:06 <GregorR> And can we call it 1->2, 1->4, etc?
05:56:16 <GregorR> Since we don't actually know that one cell is eight bits :P
05:56:45 <GregorR> Which I'm working on right now.
05:57:13 <calamari> you should work on the important parts
05:58:39 <GregorR> So, can you give me access to the brainfuck.sf.net CVS repo? ^_^
05:58:48 <GregorR> That is, is that within your power?
05:59:11 <calamari> you should already be able to read it
05:59:11 <GregorR> Yeah, so I could put C2BF there.
05:59:20 <GregorR> Of course I can read it :P
05:59:22 <calamari> let me see if I'm on that project, I think I am
05:59:43 <GregorR> Umm, didn't you post bfbasic there ...?
06:00:05 <calamari> there are different admin levels
06:00:13 <calamari> you can be a developer .. or an admin
06:00:43 <GregorR> Err, I just need the lowest level that'll let me post to CVS - probably "developer" :)
06:00:44 <calamari> okay cool, I can make you a develeoper
06:00:48 <GregorR> I just want somewhere to put this ;)
06:01:06 <GregorR> You may want to tell the project lead why you're doing this :P
06:01:46 <GregorR> So long as it's somebody I know :P
06:03:18 <calamari> be sure to make a new dir for it
06:04:23 <calamari> :) why is it that I forget that you know all this crap already
06:05:00 <GregorR> I do have several OSS projects on SF :)
06:07:02 <calamari> btw, do you knwo how to make my delete key function as a delete key in nano (rather than backspace)?
06:07:59 <GregorR> Yeah, use a REAL editor!!!
06:09:20 <GregorR> As soon as I'm done with the AST, I'll post it.
06:09:34 <GregorR> Only 16 nonterminals left.
06:09:34 <calamari> some habits die hard.. editing is my weak point
06:09:50 <calamari> I've used pine/pico as long as I've been online
06:10:13 <calamari> no.. for writing e-mail and shell scripts
06:10:25 <GregorR> In that case, I have no qualm.
06:10:31 <GregorR> I actually like pico/nano.
06:10:43 <GregorR> People who use them for programming are missing out on a lot :)
06:10:51 <GregorR> People who don't are using an easy-to-use editor :)
06:10:52 <calamari> I use gedit for programming usually
06:11:08 <calamari> I've tried kate but its very slow on this machine
06:12:01 <calamari> my favorite editor was Textpad
06:12:29 <GregorR> http://armedbear-j.sf.net/
06:12:44 <GregorR> It's written in Java ... but it's SUCH an excellent editor :'(
06:13:22 <GregorR> Well, moreover it doesn't work under SableVM :( :( :(
06:14:14 <GregorR> I wasn't referring to editing Java - just as a programmer's editor in general.
06:14:20 <GregorR> I write almost no Java code :P
06:14:37 <calamari> you have a secret love for Java
06:15:02 <calamari> everyone does.. just can't admit it ;)
06:15:17 <GregorR> If it wasn't so proprietary, I wouldn't mind it too much.
06:15:21 <GregorR> It's nice to have a wimpmode C++.
06:15:38 <GregorR> But I try to avoid proprietary software at all costs.
06:15:43 <calamari> hopefully when sun finally dies they'll do the honorable thing
06:15:56 <GregorR> If they do, I'll start writing much more java XD
06:16:39 <calamari> argh.. can't seem to run java apps
06:17:07 <calamari> # An unexpected error has been detected by HotSpot Virtual Machine:
06:17:08 <calamari> # SIGSEGV (0xb) at pc=0xb793528e, pid=7996, tid=3084904672
06:17:08 <calamari> # Java VM: Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (1.5.0-b64 mixed mode)
06:17:42 <calamari> I think I broke it a while back trying to mix sun java and one of the free javas
06:18:23 <GregorR> ARGH - I've had this song stuck in my head for well over a week now >_<
06:18:34 <GregorR> I WILL NOT SING YOU AGAIN!
06:18:54 <GregorR> I'll take "We'll Meet Again," thank you very much ;)
06:20:18 <calamari> I've come to dislike music with vocals
06:20:34 <GregorR> I listen to almost no music with vocals.
06:20:37 <GregorR> But of the other variety ;)
06:21:13 <GregorR> As opposed to sequenced :)
06:21:46 <calamari> I was looking for something to play quake to
06:22:11 <GregorR> We live in different universes, you and I ;)
06:22:49 <calamari> although I'm probably one of very few mormons who listens to trance :)
06:24:08 <calamari> in the car it has to be classical tho.. or silence.. that's good too
06:24:25 <GregorR> I listen to a lot of silence ;)
06:24:42 <GregorR> I once had an MP3 player, but I stopped using it, because I'm more comfortable with silence.
06:25:59 <GregorR> I wonder what OSI is going to do when GPLv3 comes out ...
06:25:59 <calamari> if I had an mp3 player I'd probably try to put linux on it
06:26:00 <calamari> and then I'd never get any work done :(
06:26:15 <GregorR> The Open Source Institute.
06:26:22 <GregorR> Or some equally ridiculous name.
06:26:25 <GregorR> Whatever OSI stands for :P
06:26:59 <GregorR> Maybe Free Software and Open Source won't be compatible anymore ...... OSI is too busy giving rights to everybody to restrict the right to restrict rights :P
06:28:32 <GregorR> Oh, it's Open Source /Initiative/.
06:31:39 <GregorR> Hmm, worse yet, GPLv3 won't even be DFSG-free.
06:31:49 <GregorR> I see a big schism coming, and I don't like the implications.
06:33:05 <calamari> well, everything GPL is already on board
06:33:15 <GregorR> Yes, everyTHING GPL, but not everyONE.
06:33:33 <GregorR> I don't want to see a Debian gplv3 section >_<
06:34:00 <calamari> ubuntu is a little more practical .. I think I'm okay :)
06:34:22 <GregorR> Yeah, Ubuntu will probably accept v3 programs, but keep in mind that their source is Debian.
06:34:32 <GregorR> If Debian outright rejects v3 or puts it in non-free, there'll be a problem.
06:34:38 <calamari> yeah, but they have their own repos
06:35:16 <calamari> hmm, I wonmder if ubuntu would go outside Debian to get packages
06:36:14 <calamari> I think if debian did that then people would start making packages for ubuntu and not debian.. then all would be ok
06:36:15 <GregorR> Well, the problem is, if I know the Debian people, they would put all v3 in non-free along with actually non-free stuff. So then there would be a huge headache of sifting through non-free for the things that are actually free, but don't follow some ridiculously strict guidelines.
06:36:55 <GregorR> Another sinful pleasure ;)
06:37:17 <GregorR> Simply put, I am yet to find a distro that matches Mandriva in ease of installation or configurability.
06:38:31 <calamari> the only reason I chose Ubuntu is that it correctly identified and worked will all my hardware
06:39:03 <calamari> also, I hadn't seen a gnome distro before, and I like GNome
06:39:25 <GregorR> Yeah, Mandriva is sort of KDE-biased, but does come with Gnome - I don't know how well it works though.
06:40:10 <calamari> I can run most KDE apps fine.. I use K3b for burning
06:40:39 <GregorR> I meant the desktop itself, not just apps thereof.
06:42:46 <GregorR> Yay, 14 nonterminals left ;)
06:43:01 <calamari> whats a nonterminal.. compiler class lingo?
06:43:41 <GregorR> Err, hmm. Where did I use it before compilers ...
06:44:05 <GregorR> But we did grammars in an earlier class, too.
06:44:26 <calamari> I did some grammar stuff last semester
06:44:45 <GregorR> That would be a simple grammar with the nonterminal N, and terminals a, b, and c.
06:44:59 <GregorR> So in this compiler's parser, I have a bunch of nonterminals. I have 14 left to make a tree out of.
06:45:27 <calamari> I unfortunately failed most of that part of the course
06:45:40 <GregorR> You'll have some problems in your compilers class ;)
06:47:03 <calamari> most of the problem was being in and out of the hospital with my wife
06:47:43 <calamari> I think I understand the basics of it ok, just missed out on the yummy details
06:47:47 <GregorR> If you still have the book, I'd do a quick review of grammars.
06:47:56 <GregorR> Or if you have access to the internet :P
06:48:27 <GregorR> Do you know what language you have to implement the compiler in.
06:49:01 <calamari> or at least a subset of small c
06:49:11 <GregorR> Err, the compiler itself and the language it will support?
06:49:36 <calamari> compiler:c, language supported: small c
06:50:45 <GregorR> The compiler is in Java, and supports a subset of Java.
06:50:59 <GregorR> Hence my recent upsurge in complaints about Java :)
06:51:18 <GregorR> Worse yet, we're using JavaCC, which is a top-down compiler compiler, so it's ridiculous that it even exists *sigh*
06:52:30 <GregorR> Bottom-up is more powerful, supports both left and right recursion, etc.
06:52:31 <calamari> afaik LALR supports more grammars
06:52:54 <GregorR> Mainly because it supports both left- and right- recursion.
06:52:57 <GregorR> So you can have things like:
06:53:24 <GregorR> Whereas with LL parsers, you can only have the second form, and anything in the first form has to be transformed.
06:54:38 <calamari> in bfbasic I'm using infix -> RPN translation
06:55:40 <GregorR> Technically you could do that either way, but, if you wrote the parser from scratch, it's LL :)
06:55:48 <GregorR> NOBODY writes LALR parsers from scratch.
06:55:52 <GregorR> It's doable, but not really :P
06:56:37 <calamari> basic doesn't require as compilcated a parser really
06:57:07 <GregorR> It's all pretty much COMMAND PARAMETER PARAMETER ..., no? :)
06:57:35 <GregorR> Does BFBASIC require 'LET'?
06:58:08 <calamari> even early versions had that feature)
06:59:05 <calamari> if it doesn't understand the keyword, it assumes its a var, then sees if there is an equal sign
07:01:48 <GregorR> Done with ... the 1->4 conversion? ^_^ :P
07:03:43 <calamari> haven't even started on that yet
07:06:48 <GregorR> I'll just go ahead and write the 1->4 conversions :P
07:06:53 <GregorR> They'll take six cells per cell.
07:07:16 <GregorR> if (x == 0) { code }" from the BF algos page :)
07:09:47 <calamari> firefox will probably stop crashing now too, I bet
07:11:56 <calamari> yeah that'll probably do it.. so 1->4(6) hehe
07:12:34 <calamari> I haven't decide how to handle , and . yet
07:12:45 <GregorR> + -> >>>+[>+>+<<-]>[<+>-]+>[<->[-]]<[-<<+[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>-]+>[<->[-]]<[-<<<+[>>>+>+<<<<-]>>>[<<<+>-]+>[<->[-]]<[-<<<<+>>>>]]]<<<<
07:13:11 <GregorR> My thought is just output the least significant cell.
07:13:19 <GregorR> That'll work great for C2BF anyway.
07:13:47 <calamari> are your temps at the beginning or the end
07:14:24 <GregorR> It's more efficient that way, since my least significant cell is also at the end.
07:14:32 <GregorR> Though what I should do is reverse the whole thing ...
07:14:50 <GregorR> Bloody hell. How dare you point out my efficiencly flaws ;)
07:18:29 <GregorR> + -> +[<+<+>>-]<[>+<-]+<[>-<[-]]>[->>+[<<+<+>>>-]<<[>>+<<-]+<[>-<[-]]>[->>>+[<<<+<+>>>>-]<<<[>>>+<<<-]+<[>-<[-]]>[->>>>+]]]
07:18:41 <GregorR> (Now, the whole program has to be prefaced with >>, btw)
07:20:21 <GregorR> + -> +[<+<+>>-]<[>+<-]+<[>-<[-]]>[->>+[<<+<+>>>-]<<[>>+<<-]+<[>-<[-]]>[->>>+[<<<+<+>>>>-]<<<[>>>+<<<-]+<[>-<[-]]>[->>>>+]]]>
07:21:59 <GregorR> - -> [<+<+>>-]<[>+<-]+<[>-<[-]]>[->>[<<+<+>>>-]<<[>>+<<-]+<[>-<[-]]>[->>>[<<<+<+>>>>-]<<<[>>>+<<<-]+<[>-<[-]]>[->>>>-<<<<]>>>-<<<]>>-<<]>-
07:22:30 <GregorR> Now, for the hardest part :P
07:22:57 <GregorR> No, I float on the least significant cell.
07:23:01 <GregorR> And the temps are left of it.
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07:23:22 <GregorR> However, [ and ] are making it look like I'll ultimately need three temps :'(
07:24:01 <GregorR> calamari and I are having a discussion :P
07:24:18 <GregorR> Trying to make an algorithm to turn any BF program into a BF program utilizing four cell cells.
07:24:23 <GregorR> Err ... that phrase made no sense.
07:24:41 <calamari> nooga: part of his c2bf compiler
07:25:04 <calamari> so that he can assume that cells are 32-bits wide and translate that to 8-bit bf
07:25:25 <GregorR> Damn, I really do think I'll need three temps for [ and ].
07:25:49 <calamari> can you re-use one of the temps?
07:25:58 <calamari> one of em right now is just to be a 0 value
07:26:37 <GregorR> The problem is, I need somewhere to and them into, and the and algorithm uses two temps.
07:28:15 <calamari> hrm, my brain is slow right now.. of course you have to and them
07:28:41 <calamari> since you only really care if any of the left ones are 0
07:29:51 <calamari> well, you don't really care about which ones are which.. if any aren't zero, its done
07:30:14 <GregorR> Hmmmmmmmmm ........ I'm thinking maybe I can do this with two .......
07:30:29 <calamari> trying to see if [>] can be used
07:30:47 <calamari> remember that you have temps on both sides
07:31:18 <GregorR> You'd have to know where you just ended up.
07:31:36 <calamari> well what I mean is 0 0 x x x x 0 0
07:31:51 <calamari> so you have 4 temps to work with in the OR
07:32:59 <GregorR> Hmm, I could use that to reduce the number of temps I use in + ... but it would probably be even worse to jump to either end :P
07:33:17 <GregorR> That does help, but I think I figured a way to do it without ;)
07:35:32 <calamari> that's good, because you might have a problem with [[[[
07:35:32 <calamari> so you might only really have 0 0 x x x x 0
07:37:24 <GregorR> [ -> [<+<+>>-]<[>+<-]<[[-]>>>[<<+<+>>>-]<<[>>+<<-]<[[-]>>>>[<<<+<+>>>>-]<<<[>>>+<<<-]<[[-]>>>>>[<<<<+<+>>>>>-]<<<<[>>>>+<<<<-]<[[-]>+<]]]][->
07:37:27 <GregorR> ] -> [<+<+>>-]<[>+<-]<[[-]>>>[<<+<+>>>-]<<[>>+<<-]<[[-]>>>>[<<<+<+>>>>-]<<<[>>>+<<<-]<[[-]>>>>>[<<<<+<+>>>>>-]<<<<[>>>>+<<<<-]<[[-]>+<]]]]]->
07:39:49 <calamari> or however the >>'s are for that
07:40:54 <GregorR> I'd need a third temp to store the value ^_^
07:41:22 <GregorR> So the question is: Have a more efficient [] at the cost of less space efficiency?
07:43:52 <GregorR> Incidentally, by this technique, I could do ANY number of cells with only two temps, so one way to increase space efficiency would be to increase the number of cells ;)
07:45:19 <calamari> use three temps.. and end with OR 0 x x x x 0
07:45:31 <calamari> err two temps between the 4 cells
07:45:44 <calamari> you're just borrowing the extra cell for the calculation
07:46:12 <GregorR> But I also need two cells for + and -
07:46:38 <GregorR> Well, my algo doesn't work ^_^
07:46:40 <calamari> why? isn't it recalculated each time?
07:47:05 <GregorR> Right now I'm just testing + :P
07:47:56 <GregorR> Hmm ... I somehow landed in the wrong place O_O
07:48:08 <GregorR> Used my broken + from before.
07:48:54 * GregorR is confused by that statement.
07:49:17 <calamari> if I do four 255's I don't end up in the same cell I started in
07:50:58 <GregorR> My + and - work fine for me ...........
07:51:58 <GregorR> + -> +[<+<+>>-]<[>+<-]+<[>-<[-]]>[->>+[<<+<+>>>-]<<[>>+<<-]+<[>-<[-]]>[->>>+[<<<+<+>>>>-]<<<[>>>+<<<-]+<[>-<[-]]>[->>>>+<<<<]]]>
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07:56:28 <GregorR> Naturally, it had nothing to do with the complicated algorithm.
07:56:34 <GregorR> It was simply that I landed on the wrong cell.
07:57:06 <GregorR> [ -> [<+<+>>-]<[>+<-]<[[-]>>>[<<+<+>>>-]<<[>>+<<-]<[[-]>>>>[<<<+<+>>>>-]<<<[>>>+<<<-]<[[-]>>>>>[<<<<+<+>>>>>-]<<<<[>>>>+<<<<-]<'(msc*)(0)(lsc)(2)(3)(msc)'[[-]>+<]]]]>[->
07:57:09 <GregorR> ] -> [<+<+>>-]<[>+<-]<[[-]>>>[<<+<+>>>-]<<[>>+<<-]<[[-]>>>>[<<<+<+>>>>-]<<<[>>>+<<<-]<[[-]>>>>>[<<<<+<+>>>>>-]<<<<[>>>>+<<<<-]<'(msc*)(0)(lsc)(2)(3)(msc)'[[-]>+<]]]]>]->
07:58:08 <GregorR> I left a comment in there :)
07:59:02 <GregorR> ] -> [<+<+>>-]<[>+<-]<[[-]>>>[<<+<+>>>-]<<[>>+<<-]<[[-]>>>>[<<<+<+>>>>-]<<<[>>>+<<<-]<[[-]>>>>>[<<<<+<+>>>>>-]<<<<[>>>>+<<<<-]<'(msc*)(0)(lsc)(2)(3)(msc)'[[-]>+<]]]]>]>
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08:00:05 <calamari> you should document these on the wiki
08:00:34 <GregorR> But step one: make them work ;)
08:00:44 <GregorR> OH CRAP - my [ and ] are ands!!! >_<
08:00:55 <GregorR> That's why it doesn't work :'(
08:01:17 <GregorR> Shoot ... I don't think I can do an or without three cells :P
08:03:17 <GregorR> Errr, three temps, sorry :)
08:04:04 <calamari> calculations [ clear out right 2 temps CODE ] clear out right 2 temps CODE
08:04:25 <GregorR> Yeah, I do have four temps ^_^
08:04:56 <GregorR> Umm ....... I still don't see how that would work.
08:05:06 <calamari> oh right, because you'd need to recalc
08:05:22 <GregorR> However, yes, I can use the right-side temps.
08:05:24 <GregorR> So I'm back down to two :)
08:06:01 <calamari> so you'd only have one temp between them?
08:06:39 <GregorR> Well, for [], I still need three temps :)
08:06:43 <GregorR> I'm just borrowing one from the other side.
08:06:54 <calamari> right, but you'd just borrow two over instead of one over
08:07:11 <GregorR> Yeah, I guess I have infinity temps if I want them.
08:07:39 <GregorR> I don't know if I like the efficiency implications of using those temps though ^_^
08:07:55 <calamari> it's not really that bad on any decent interpreter
08:11:36 <GregorR> + -> +[<+>>>>>+<<<<-]<[>+<-]+>>>>>[<<<<<->>>>>[-]]<<<<<[>>+[<<+>>>>>+<<<-]<<[>>+<<-]+>>>>>[<<<<<->>>>>[-]]<<<<<[>>>+[<<<+>>>>>+<<-]<<<[>>>+<<<-]+>>>>>[<<<<<->>>>>[-]]<<<<<[>>>>+<<<<]]]>
08:11:55 <GregorR> Oh wait, that's not quite right.
08:12:20 <GregorR> + -> +[<+>>>>>+<<<<-]<[>+<-]+>>>>>[<<<<<->>>>>[-]]<<<<<[->>+[<<+>>>>>+<<<-]<<[>>+<<-]+>>>>>[<<<<<->>>>>[-]]<<<<<[->>>+[<<<+>>>>>+<<-]<<<[>>>+<<<-]+>>>>>[<<<<<->>>>>[-]]<<<<<[->>>>+<<<<]]]>
08:14:43 <GregorR> - -> [<+>>>>>+<<<<-]<[>+<-]+>>>>>[<<<<<->>>>>[-]]<<<<<[->>[<<+>>>>>+<<<-]<<[>>+<<-]+>>>>>[<<<<<->>>>>[-]]<<<<<[->>>[<<<+>>>>>+<<-]<<<[>>>+<<<-]+>>>>>[<<<<<->>>>>[-]]<<<<<[->>>>-<<<<]>>>-<<<]>>-<<]>-
08:19:29 <GregorR> [ -> [>>>>+>>>>>+<<<<<<<<<-]>>>>>>>>>[<<<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>>>-]<<<<<[[-]<<<<<+>>>>>]<<<[>>>+>>>>>+<<<<<<<<-]>>>>>>>>[<<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>>-]<<<<<[[-]<<<<<+>>>>>]<<[>>+>>>>>+<<<<<<<-]>>>>>>>[<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>-]<<<<<[[-]<<<<<+>>>>>]<[>+>>>>>+<<<<<<-]>>>>>>[<<<<<<+>>>>>>-]<<<<<[[-]<<<<<+>>>>>]<<<<<[[-]>
08:19:45 <GregorR> ] -> [>>>>+>>>>>+<<<<<<<<<-]>>>>>>>>>[<<<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>>>-]<<<<<[[-]<<<<<+>>>>>]<<<[>>>+>>>>>+<<<<<<<<-]>>>>>>>>[<<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>>-]<<<<<[[-]<<<<<+>>>>>]<<[>>+>>>>>+<<<<<<<-]>>>>>>>[<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>-]<<<<<[[-]<<<<<+>>>>>]<[>+>>>>>+<<<<<<-]>>>>>>[<<<<<<+>>>>>>-]<<<<<[[-]<<<<<+>>>>>]<<<<<]>
08:19:48 <calamari> btw, if you use a trailing +, then you don't have to lead the program with >
08:20:12 <calamari> but I'm sure you don't want to redo again hehe
08:20:44 <calamari> besides it's more efficient this way
08:21:04 <GregorR> If I always used trailing, it would be very, very bad ^_^
08:21:20 <GregorR> For once I don't agree with your logic enough to change it ;)
08:22:16 <GregorR> I just didn't read enough :P
08:22:56 <GregorR> OR -> [>>>>+>>>>>+<<<<<<<<<-]>>>>>>>>>[<<<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>>>-]<<<<<[[-]<<<<<+>>>>>]<<<[>>>+>>>>>+<<<<<<<<-]>>>>>>>>[<<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>>-]<<<<<[[-]<<<<<+>>>>>]<<[>>+>>>>>+<<<<<<<-]>>>>>>>[<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>-]<<<<<[[-]<<<<<+>>>>>]<[>+>>>>>+<<<<<<-]>>>>>>[<<<<<<+>>>>>>-]<<<<<[[-]<<<<<+>>>>>]<<<<<
08:23:05 <GregorR> 'Or' is included in both [ and ]
08:23:35 <calamari> oh, I meant you changed from and to or ?
08:23:47 <GregorR> Because it should be or :)
08:24:41 <GregorR> NOBODY CAN DEFEAT MY AMAZING SKILL!
08:25:27 <calamari> a 1->2 version would be cool too
08:25:49 <GregorR> Actually that'd be pretty easy to write after all that.
08:26:29 <calamari> three columns original 1->2 1->4
08:27:12 <GregorR> I hope you don't mind testing these as I paste them through, because I'm not ^_^
08:27:29 <GregorR> + -> +[<+>>>>>+<<<<-]<[>+<-]+>>>>>[<<<<<->>>>>[-]]<<<<<[->>+<<]>
08:28:25 <GregorR> - -> [<+>>>>>+<<<<-]<[>+<-]+>>>>>[<<<<<->>>>>[-]]<<<<<[->>-<<]>-
08:28:46 <GregorR> I did those wrong, didn't think before I typed.
08:29:01 <GregorR> I did >>>>> where I should have done >>> (there are only two to skip over now ;) )
08:29:37 <GregorR> + -> +[<+>>>+<<-]<[>+<-]+>>>[<<<->>>[-]]<<<[->>+<<]>
08:29:41 <calamari> +[<+>>>+<<-]<[>+<-]+>>>[<<<->>>[-]]<<<[->>+<<]>
08:30:02 <GregorR> - -> [<+>>>+<<-]<[>+<-]+>>>[<<<->>>[-]]<<<[->>-<<]>-
08:31:56 <GregorR> OR -> [>>+>>>+<<<<<-]>>>>>[<<<<<+>>>>>-]<<<[[-]<<<+>>>]<[>+>>>+<<<<-]>>>>[<<<<+>>>>-]<<<[[-]<<<+>>>]<<<
08:32:12 <GregorR> [>>+>>>+<<<<<-]>>>>>[<<<<<+>>>>>-]<<<[[-]<<<+>>>]<[>+>>>+<<<<-]>>>>[<<<<+>>>>-]<<<[[-]<<<+>>>]<<<[[-]>
08:32:15 <GregorR> [ -> [>>+>>>+<<<<<-]>>>>>[<<<<<+>>>>>-]<<<[[-]<<<+>>>]<[>+>>>+<<<<-]>>>>[<<<<+>>>>-]<<<[[-]<<<+>>>]<<<[[-]>
08:32:27 <GregorR> ] -> [>>+>>>+<<<<<-]>>>>>[<<<<<+>>>>>-]<<<[[-]<<<+>>>]<[>+>>>+<<<<-]>>>>[<<<<+>>>>-]<<<[[-]<<<+>>>]<<<]>
08:33:08 <GregorR> Should this be under "Brainfuck algorithms" ...?
08:36:22 <GregorR> Hmm, how do you put a multiline piece of data in a cell in a table in mediawiki ...
08:36:47 <GregorR> I hope you wrote a program to do it for you ;)
08:37:26 <GregorR> I hope you don't inadvertantly overlap ^_^
08:37:46 <calamari> first translating +->< into abcd
08:39:37 <GregorR> Speaking of us being from different universes :)
08:40:17 <calamari> Found and replaced 10821 occurrences. lol
08:42:12 <GregorR> Incidentally, numwarp.b worked great with my 1->4 converter.
08:45:47 <GregorR> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_bitwidth_conversions
08:47:12 <calamari> it's really 1->3 and 1->5 isn't it :)
08:47:43 <GregorR> No, because the actual cells used by the program are 2 and 4.
08:47:53 <GregorR> But that's not what's important.
08:58:09 <GregorR> OK, now let's take yapi.b, make it 8 cells wide, then run it on egobfi64 >: )
08:59:47 <GregorR> Well, it does increase latency hugely.
08:59:55 <GregorR> Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, here's a crazy thought ..................
09:00:16 <GregorR> What if I compile a 1-cell version, 2-cell version and 4-cell version, and decide what to use at runtime?
09:00:37 <GregorR> It /ought/ to be possible, but might take so much time to decide that it's not worth it ...
09:01:17 <calamari> a 4-cell version of what? c2bf?
09:01:31 <GregorR> Of whatever program is being compiled.
09:01:50 <GregorR> IE, c2bf produces a 1-cell, then a program takes that and makes 1, 2, and 4 celled versions, and a wrapper to decide which at runtime.
09:02:26 <GregorR> I guess doing - 255 times is probably a problem, and doing it 2 billion times is a big problem ^_^
09:03:10 <GregorR> Hmm, but by doing 6*6*4, then checking if it's 0, you can see if you have an 8-bit one ...
09:03:15 <GregorR> And that's not too bad ...
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09:04:49 <GregorR_> What was the last line you got from me?
09:04:57 <calamari> <GregorR> Hmm, but by doing 6*6*4, then checking if it's 0, you can see if you have an 8-bit one ...
09:04:57 <calamari> <GregorR> And that's not too bad ...
09:05:08 <GregorR_> But had apparently already been killed.
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09:06:46 <calamari> actually, don't even need to do that
09:06:58 <calamari> since the cell already holds 256, just do x*x
09:08:46 <calamari> of course thats still slow, because * means -
09:09:12 <GregorR> Yeah, that as an add-to is nasty.
09:15:22 <calamari> (I'm having it crunch on those nice bf strings)
09:20:09 <GregorR> ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>[<++++>-]<[>+>+<<-]>[<+>-]+>[[-]<[-]<[>>+>+<<<-]>>>[<[<+<+>>-]<[>+<-]>>-]<<<[>+>+<<-]>[<+>-]+>[<-<[-] 1cell code [-]>[-]>[-]]<[-<[-] 2cell code [-]>[-]]]<[-<[-] 4cell code [-]>[-]]
09:20:16 <GregorR> I think that would work ...?
09:21:23 <calamari> if you say so.. too late at night hehe
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09:22:34 <GregorR> This is the last thing I do before I go to sleep :P
09:24:23 <GregorR> You may now praise me as a god.
09:25:55 <GregorR> $ ./c2bf-1toM yapi.b | wc -c
09:31:13 <lament> you converted C to BF????!
09:31:15 <GregorR> Or at least, there was no human-noticeable difference.
09:31:52 <calamari> I figured that'd be slow.. glad I was wrong
09:31:54 <GregorR> Don't ask me why 256*256 didn't take longer.
09:32:04 <GregorR> I guess it's only 65536 *shrugs*
09:33:25 <GregorR> Oh, I'm assuming that if it's still going strong after 65536, it must be 32 bits.
09:33:58 <GregorR> I don't quite understand "are you assuming 24=32" ...
09:34:27 <calamari> what you just said .. 256*256*256
09:35:05 <GregorR> No, I just assumed that if it even got to 65536 (17 bits), it's 32.
09:35:23 <GregorR> I can't imagine an 18-bit, 24-bit or 30-bit interp :)
09:35:36 <GregorR> Or rather, it uses the 1-celled version, not it assumes that it's 32-bit.
09:35:40 <GregorR> I should be more explicit there.
09:36:11 <calamari> yeah I guess 256*256 is plenty fast
09:41:35 <GregorR> Now, DEFINITELY time for sleep.
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11:03:47 <Keymaker> grhhh. got distracted from my work for a couple of days..
11:04:28 <Keymaker> and it's entirely unrelated to esolangs :\
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11:10:23 <Keymaker> wrong finger offset on keyboard :)
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11:42:10 <Keymaker> can a normal cd rom drive read playstation 2 discs?
11:42:49 <Keymaker> and does anyone know how i could rip musics from a game? is there anything common way they are stored?
11:51:58 <jix> i think ps2 disks are dvds
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12:00:09 <Keymaker> yah, reading works.. now copying two 400mb music files
12:00:15 <Keymaker> no idea about their format, though :\
12:01:07 <fizzie> Back in the DOS game period the musics used to be in one of the various MOD-like formats. Nowadays PC games usually use mp3 or other such formats, probably in various containers.
12:01:59 <fizzie> Blaystation 2, games, though. My guess would be a relatively custom format, but who knows.
12:02:46 <Keymaker> well, i can't read even mp3 format, so it may take a few decades till i get the sounds out
12:04:38 <Keymaker> i guess some "underground" ps2 forum might know
12:08:50 <Keymaker> the header of the file has the names of the track files written, like "snowptrl.mpf"
12:09:53 <Keymaker> it has the same names as ".mus" too
12:11:03 <Keymaker> well, my only hope is to find some program if there is any..
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14:36:42 <nooga> HAL's response should be: "afirmative" or "true" or maybe lispish "t"
14:43:09 <nooga> but "yes" is also good
14:44:25 <nooga> hm, iwould like to put myself in Category:People but I wouldn't date
14:51:38 <nooga> i woder if apache has Haskell-mod
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15:22:50 <jix> i think i found a way to prove minks to be turing complete
15:29:14 <jix> but it think its output routines don't allow arbitrary input and output while being turing complete
15:32:59 <nooga> i think about implementing non-esoteric functional language which's syntax will be more Clike
15:34:52 <jix> maybe minks is missing an instruction to set a condition without decrementing
15:35:36 <jix> but i'm not sure
15:38:26 <kipple> GregorR: those bitwidth conversions look pretty nifty!
15:41:35 <jix> hmm no i'd need such a command
15:41:46 <jix> (at least for my current approach)
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16:26:13 <jix> i have an idea for a new computational model but i have no idea wether it's turing complete or not
16:27:19 <jix> you have one data vector of N fractions
16:28:00 * SimonRC printed out the Befunge _Hunt the Wumpus_ once and drew in all the boundries that the PC never crossed.
16:28:36 <jix> you have three matrices called a C N and D
16:29:43 <jix> with every iteration you calculate the dot product of v and C the result is called i...
16:30:11 <jix> wait i used N twice
16:30:44 <jix> but no one listens anyway....
16:31:57 <jix> or does someone?
16:37:22 <SimonRC> (note: don't forget pointer arithmetic in bf2c!)
16:37:42 <jix> yeah and function pointers
16:37:56 <jix> and the gcc lable pointer extension and and and...
16:45:14 <SimonRC> jix: sorry, tell me more about this matrix thing
16:47:00 <jix> i'm going to post something on the wiki as soon as i'm ready with it
17:00:34 <jix> my machine is able to compute the gcd of two integers
17:03:02 <jix> i need a name for my machine
17:04:31 <jix> my matrix thing
17:04:44 <jix> (machine as in turing machine or register machine.. only a virtual one)
17:06:13 <SimonRC> Try writing a NOT function.
17:06:31 <jix> 1 => 0 and 0 => 1?
17:06:55 <jix> you should avoid using 0
17:07:09 <jix> because you get divide by 0 errors
17:07:32 <SimonRC> I didn;t know it did division.
17:13:00 <jix> you start with a vector V0 of j fractions and 4 matrices C N D and R of size j*j
17:13:43 <jix> to compute Va+1 you compute i, the dot product of Va and C
17:14:15 <jix> and again i encounter naming problems
17:15:07 <jix> nargh i have to write it down on the wiki
17:15:12 <jix> does it have latex support activated?
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17:18:13 <jix> it doesn't :(
17:21:27 <calamari> Keymaker: what does mplayer say about the file?
17:28:53 <jix> i want latex on the esolang wiki!
17:31:06 <calamari> link to this article ;) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latex
17:31:29 <jix> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaTeX << !
17:55:15 <Keymaker> calamari: no idea, haven't tried
17:55:24 <Keymaker> probably it wouldn't open, dunno
17:55:34 <Keymaker> it may be that game team's something own mixture
17:59:06 <jix> 3 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 << thats my gcd program
17:59:25 <jix> greatest common divisor
18:00:36 <jix> that is the size of C N D or R followed by the contents
18:01:09 <Keymaker> sorry, i don't understand anything about that (or the things you said in log) :9
18:01:43 <Keymaker> btw, since there is no latex, perhaps you could upload stuff as pictures?
18:01:50 <Keymaker> or make something pdf document?
18:01:54 <jix> yeah but that is annoying
18:03:46 <calamari> latex doesn't let you export to a bitmap format?
18:04:50 <calamari> btw.. when is the lat time graue was in here? seems like its been a while
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18:19:54 <nooga> I was at dentist -.-'
18:23:48 <nooga> she gave me 2 injections and it was still painfull, i cant talk now because my tongue is paralized
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19:24:38 <jix> i need a name for my machine!
19:26:07 <Keymaker> can't remember your surname correctly, sorry :)
19:26:10 <jix> ha>>R<<der
19:26:36 <Keymaker> harder machine or.. hard machine
19:27:07 <jix> Ihnihtct Machine
19:27:19 <jix> I have no idea how to call this Machine
19:28:03 <Keymaker> (just thought because there are turing and minsky machines that are both named after their inventor (i guess))
19:28:24 <jix> afaik minsky called his machine register machine
19:29:24 <Keymaker> although, i may just as well have misinterpreted the article :)
19:29:53 <jix> but he didn't called them minsky machines
19:30:18 <Keymaker> well, just give something other name and people will start calling it harder machine :p
19:30:35 <jix> Weird Fraction Machine
19:30:52 <Keymaker> that sounds esotericish enough :)
19:31:27 -!- GregorR_ has changed nick to GregorR.
19:31:45 <jix> moin GregorR
19:32:02 <GregorR> Apparently I'm doomed to disconnect and reconnect over and over for all eternity.
19:35:02 <jix> i don't want to write an article about my WFM
19:40:14 <GregorR> Your Windows File Manager? ^_^
19:44:03 <calamari> keymaker: how is your bf program going?
19:45:08 <calamari> why did you censor masturbation?
19:46:41 <Keymaker> calamari: as i said earlier today, i got distracted a bit because of one other project.. but i'm working on it at the moment
19:47:07 <Keymaker> the code will be far from anything elegant, perhaps i shouldn't even release it when it's ready :p it's horrible
19:47:13 -!- EgoBot has joined.
19:47:17 <GregorR> I have to find some way to keep EgoBot connected though my connection cuts unexpectedly ...
19:47:35 <calamari> I thought you had .. guess it didn't work as planned?
19:47:58 <GregorR> I found a way to keep it connected if it crashes ...
19:48:15 <calamari> btw, how long does it take after you lose your connection before apps start noticing it?
19:48:18 <GregorR> But the thing is, there's no way for it to detect when the connection cuts except to go "Hmm, I haven't gotten a ping in twenty minutes ..."
19:48:51 <calamari> I wonder how M$ does it so that apps notice so fast
19:54:35 <Keymaker> grhhh.. i hate using pen and paper but just now i'm too tired to think :p
19:55:58 <calamari> did I already mention that XTEA is 4 lines of Linguine?
20:00:49 <calamari> I was using bad variable numbers.. needed to change them
20:01:02 <calamari> was making it hard to call functions from within functions
20:01:58 <calamari> speaking of globals.. have fun with local variables in bf
20:02:18 <calamari> I guess you'll need to implement some sort of malloc
20:03:17 -!- {^Raven^} has joined.
20:04:18 <GregorR> Yo dog in dah hizzle wut up wikiwiki et cetera.
20:05:17 <GregorR> Sorry, the word "peeps" threw me into ebonics mode.
20:08:44 -!- ihope has joined.
20:09:00 * {^Raven^} considers hiding somewhere for a bit
20:09:01 <ihope> Two networks at once. It's extremely confusing.
20:09:25 <ihope> I can't stand it! /me leaves the other one
20:10:25 <ihope> Oh yeah? Well... well...
20:10:31 <ihope> I could be on FOUR if I wanted to!
20:10:48 <GregorR> Clearly you don't want to :P
20:11:13 <calamari> ihope: I've identified the problem.. ditch Chatzilla and use xchat :)
20:11:38 <ihope> It probably wouldn't be so bad if I simply joined all the Freenode servers.
20:11:47 <Keymaker> i wonder if this opera irc client could be in other networks at the same time
20:12:01 <GregorR> Ditch Chatzilla and use LostIRC :)
20:12:30 <jix> ihope: i was working on a minks tc proof
20:12:46 <ihope> Ditch both and use copy con com!
20:12:54 <ihope> Or whatever it is.
20:13:07 <jix> but i'm missing an instruction to force a condition to be true or false
20:13:40 <ihope> jix: just increment a register and decrement it again. I think that'll... hmm...
20:13:51 <jix> ihope: set a condition to false...
20:14:00 <jix> if you make conditions case sensitive
20:14:09 <ihope> Decrement a register until it's zero.
20:14:15 <jix> i loose it's value
20:14:21 <jix> and make hELLO == !Hello
20:14:39 <jix> then i can set hELLO to true to set Hello to false
20:15:09 <jix> and set everything that starts with a lowercase letter to false (as default value)
20:15:16 <ihope> But that would make it EASIER to use!
20:15:22 <calamari> GregorR: if you're on multiple servers is there any kind of divison like there is in xchat?
20:15:38 <jix> yeah but that would make it tc
20:15:40 <GregorR> No, it's just how I like it :)
20:16:04 <calamari> xchat is good, even though the author went slightly evil
20:16:27 <GregorR> Let's take all this code copyrighted to other people and relicense it with nobody's permission!
20:16:30 <Keymaker> is there any command for changing the exit message?
20:16:38 <jix> and i think it's impossible to use input and output and make it tc... but i may be wrong (in both cases)
20:16:48 <Keymaker> like something you write "/stuff "leaving"" or something?
20:17:19 <ihope> Hmm. Let's BF-to-Minks.
20:17:34 <Keymaker> i'll make a test, be back soon
20:17:39 -!- Keymaker has left (?).
20:17:39 <calamari> then let's change it after the fact
20:17:45 <ihope> BF with two infinite registers is Turing-complete, aye?
20:17:57 <calamari> whoa, I got got 10 lines all at once
20:18:24 -!- Keymaker has joined.
20:18:33 * calamari checks the torrent.. still going
20:18:43 -!- Keymaker has left (?).
20:18:59 <GregorR> SinceTime to leave - and so, I will leave you with this link: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_bitwidth_conversions
20:19:11 <GregorR> Grr, worst formed sentence ever.
20:19:20 <GregorR> Since it's time to leave, I will leave you with this link: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_bitwidth_conversions
20:19:27 <calamari> oh yeah, I kjeep forgetting to link to that from the bf page
20:19:28 -!- Keymaker has joined.
20:20:03 <GregorR> I linked it from the BF algorithms page.
20:27:53 -!- Keymaker has quit.
20:30:27 -!- Keymaker has joined.
20:31:06 <Keymaker> grh. couldn't get the quit message working with this opera client
20:31:23 -!- nooga has joined.
20:31:35 * nooga is making his new esolang!
20:33:01 -!- CXI has joined.
20:36:23 <nooga> what was that language based on words?
20:36:44 <Keymaker> hmm, i think there have been couple of
20:36:52 <Keymaker> one was called something gertrude or something
20:38:00 <Keymaker> http://p-nand-q.com/humor/programming_languages/gplz/gplz_gertrude.html
20:38:35 <Keymaker> there's a hello world program which is quite crazy..
20:46:37 <nooga> i need some cool way to calculate word's 'weight'
20:47:16 <Keymaker> perhaps adding every ascii character's value together?
20:47:24 <Keymaker> that's what i was planning to use sometime :p
20:47:48 <nooga> it would bevery hard to program
20:48:09 <nooga> programming in that language
20:48:21 <calamari> nooga: g's are heavier than i's, right? since the loop of the g hangs low, but the i lifts upward.. hehe
20:48:45 <nooga> something like this
20:49:34 <nooga> i need something that will connect totally different words, like: "pidgeon", "bread", "defenestrate"
20:49:41 <nooga> it's just an example
20:50:04 <calamari> connect them? you mean as a valid sentence?
20:51:07 <nooga> i mean theres no difference what word will u use, so u can put "bread" for "pidgeon" every time you are bored by "bread"
20:53:21 <calamari> what are those games called, where you fill in the blanks with words, mad-libs
20:54:09 <calamari> it might be interesting to have various allowed patterns, then words could be grouped to what they are: noun, verb, etc
20:54:42 <calamari> so then the program would be forced to be at least something like a sentence
20:55:19 <calamari> then, the form they used could also be a modifier
20:55:27 <calamari> (not only the wrods they chose)
20:55:59 <calamari> the problem is creating the word lists
20:56:41 <calamari> hm.. or you could create your own
20:56:59 <calamari> that'd be even better then it wouldn't be limited to a certain language
20:57:15 <calamari> although the templates would.. unless they could be changed also
21:01:36 <calamari> hmm. I wonder how many combinations of 2 words there are where if the letters in both words were mixed together randomly, the two words could be reconstructed given their lengths
21:03:36 <nooga> i thought i can count vowels in word and add it's length
21:03:49 <nooga> but it's not good solution
21:04:30 <nooga> pidgeon, dungeon, nodeGun
21:06:23 <nooga> hehe, i've got a name for my unfinished language
21:06:25 <calamari> if you want to account for the ordering, you can multiply by some constant as you go
21:07:21 <nooga> which is: Top Secret Idiotland's Army Language For Top Secret And Evil Calculations
21:28:24 -!- ihope_ has joined.
21:29:16 <ihope_> Yep. ChatZilla popped into lurkmode again.
21:29:56 -!- ihope has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:30:34 <ihope_> Some semi-serious lurkage. Not able to do anything but quit entirely.
21:30:45 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to ihope.
21:39:12 <nooga> still no ideas -.-'
21:40:33 <Keymaker> i went to #brainfuck and it didn't exist before.. feel free to come to idle there, as well :p
21:47:30 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soundex
21:51:42 <calamari> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphone
21:52:08 <nooga> metaphone is much more complex
21:52:35 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levenshtein
21:58:31 <nooga> metaphone looks nice
22:18:30 <Keymaker> is there any way to un-register the username?
22:18:52 <ihope> It's /msg nickserv drop
22:19:09 <ihope> ...followed by username, then password
22:20:32 <ihope> So if you leave, we can all pretend to be you?
22:20:49 <Keymaker> i couldn't use the registered name stuff
22:21:10 <ihope> You mean /msg nickserv identify <password> every time you log in?
22:21:56 <ihope> Not even if it were something like "barfoo??
22:22:49 <ihope> Doesn't NickServ /msg you with a reminder upon connecting?
22:23:06 <ihope> -NickServ- This nickname is owned by someone else
22:23:34 <Keymaker> or was it chanserv or something.
22:23:41 <Keymaker> something at least appears every time
22:24:19 <ihope> -NickServ- If this is your nickname, type /msg NickServ IDENTIFY <password>
22:29:31 <Keymaker> ok, now i registered it again, and tried to add this client to do that /msg nickserv identify stuff automatically
22:38:49 <ihope> Ack. Murble grumble.
22:38:55 <GregorR> Nice to know I get some respect.
22:39:04 <GregorR> "GregorR reappears <ihope> Aah! NOOO!"
22:39:10 <ihope> (And no, that wasn't about your "reappearing".)
22:40:04 <Keymaker> GregorR: join #brainfuck! we need more bloo.. eh idlers
22:40:21 <jix> ihope: bf with 5 registers
22:41:31 <lament> what's the point of a separate brainfuck channel?
22:42:01 <jix> ihope: you need 5 registers for bf to be tc
22:42:05 <ihope> <Keymaker> just for fun
22:51:38 -!- nooga has left (?).
22:52:44 <ihope> So it's time to write a spec for BF-PR, which is almost the best esoteric programming language.
22:54:25 <ihope> Enumerability time...
22:55:34 * SimonRC get irritated by a webcomic with a slightly blatent Christian message.
22:56:31 <Keymaker> not that i'd read those anyways
22:56:50 <SimonRC> It has a bear with incarnate aspects of his personality.
22:58:13 <SimonRC> It would be marginaly less irritating without furries.
22:58:28 <SimonRC> I only found it because it was linked to from another webcomic that it was doing a cameo of.
23:04:37 <ihope> lament: a language I haven't finished yet
23:22:37 <ihope> ...Yeah, wouldn't 3 be enough?
23:22:51 <ihope> Two for the Minsky and one for flow control?
23:23:27 <jix> yeah but the proof is for 5 registers
23:33:10 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht").
23:39:31 <Keymaker> ok, now the brainfuck channel is at ##brainfuck
23:39:43 <Keymaker> (and owned by gregorr.. beware!)
23:45:45 <ihope> !bf_txtgen Like this!
23:46:00 <EgoBot> 91 +++++++++++++++[>+++++>++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>+.>>.++.>----.<<++.>+++++++++.>+++.+.<-.<+. [594]