00:00:07 <ihope> SimonRC: Timeless.
00:01:46 <SimonRC> http://gamegarage.co.uk/play/mousegame/
00:02:12 <SimonRC> poiuy_qwert: why the colours?
00:02:29 <SimonRC> grey+red on a black background looks really shite
00:03:13 <SimonRC> then you could change it to not look like that
00:04:43 <SimonRC> what client are you using?
00:05:33 <ihope> PRIVMSG poiuy_qwert :^AVERSION^A
00:07:40 -!- SimonRC has set topic: the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - wikis: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/ http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ - for brainfuck-specific discussion, go to ##brainfuck.
00:08:47 <ihope> Bzzt. Too long. You lose.
00:09:21 <ihope> Aren't they both the same wiki, anyway?
00:10:07 -!- ihope has set topic: #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - for brainfuck-specific discussion, go to ##brainfuck.
00:10:20 <ihope> ...And my chat client still doesn't like it.
00:10:58 <SimonRC> neither is responding to my web browsetr
00:11:35 <ihope> !bf_txtgen #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - for brainfuck-specific discussion, go to ##brainfuck
00:11:54 <SimonRC> ihope: why did you do that?!
00:17:43 <ihope> Now, while we're waiting...
00:17:50 <ihope> !daemon pager bf +[,>,<[->++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<]>.<[-]+]
00:18:16 <ihope> !pager %a A C T I O N t r i e s i t o u t%a
00:19:12 <ihope> Look at the source code! :-P
00:20:01 <SimonRC> It doesn't seem to make much sense...
00:20:08 <SimonRC> There are 32 plus signs, right?
00:20:14 <SimonRC> in the long string of them
00:20:52 <ihope> !daemon P u t a s p a c e b e f o r e e a c h c h a r a c t e r ( t h e o n e a f t e r t h e w o r d " p a g e r " d o e s n ' t c o u n t ) , a n d p u t a s p a c e a t t h e e n d o f t h e l i n e .
00:20:54 <SimonRC> so it takes in ab and outputs... a*32 + b
00:20:56 <poiuy_qwert> [$len(++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++)] == [32] (0ms)
00:21:00 <ihope> !pager P u t a s p a c e b e f o r e e a c h c h a r a c t e r ( t h e o n e a f t e r t h e w o r d " p a g e r " d o e s n ' t c o u n t ) , a n d p u t a s p a c e a t t h e e n d o f t h e l i n e .
00:21:07 <EgoBot> Put a space before each character (the one after the word "pager" doesn't count), and put a space at the end of the line.
00:21:22 <SimonRC> poiuy_qwert: what did you do there?
00:21:31 <Sgeo> What is Pager for?
00:22:14 <SimonRC> poiuy_qwert: are more client features
00:22:21 <SimonRC> poiuy_qwert: ah, more client features
00:22:22 <ihope> Sgeo: !pager is for making EgoBot use special characters, and !daemon is for adding commands to EgoBot.
00:22:28 <Sgeo> !daemon sgeo bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
00:23:08 <Sgeo> Did I just break something :(
00:23:29 <Sgeo> ihope, pager is just a BF program you wrote?
00:24:03 <ihope> poiuy_qwert: no, it's GregorR's.
00:24:05 <Sgeo> And why does EgoBot look dead?
00:27:54 <SimonRC> GregorR: EGOBOT IS DEAD! COME AND FIX IT!
00:28:18 <SimonRC> If I shout loud enough, he'll hear me
00:28:23 <ihope> Isn't it C or C++?
00:28:25 <SimonRC> poiuy_qwert: that was a joke, BTW
00:29:39 <SimonRC> (Just because memory management is a boring, repetative error-prone task with well-understood algorithms to solve it doesn't meant a computer should do it.)
00:37:05 <GregorR> Stop breaking things, jerks X-P
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00:39:50 <Sgeo> How did it break?
00:43:26 <SimonRC> GregorR: could it have been "< Sgeo> !daemon sgeo bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++."
00:43:36 <SimonRC> which is probably what Sgeo is worrying about
00:44:13 <GregorR> Sgeo: Was it spamming you?
00:46:23 <SimonRC> how is the box that it's running on?
00:52:17 <GregorR> There's a BF process taking all my CPU X-P
00:52:44 <GregorR> I disabled the resource limitations again ... probably not a wise move :P
00:52:57 <SimonRC> well, about 41 mins ago...
00:53:12 <SimonRC> ... ihope stuck the topic through bf_txtgen
00:54:08 <SimonRC> then there was Sgeo's daemon
00:54:59 * Sgeo vaguely wonders how a simple program can cause problems
00:56:32 <SimonRC> Say, GregorR, what actually *is* the daemon protocol.
00:56:52 <SimonRC> It doesn't, by any chance, require the daemon to take input, does it?
00:56:54 <GregorR> It runs it IN A LOOP YOU FLEM
00:58:29 <SimonRC> So a daemon that doesn't ever take input might break it?
00:58:42 <GregorR> It could. Don't you like how fragile it is? :P
00:58:59 <SimonRC> such as "00:22 < Sgeo> !daemon sgeo bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++."
00:59:22 <SimonRC> which incidently I quoted a few minutes ago and you ignored >:-(
00:59:41 * SimonRC realises thi is coming across a bit grumpy
01:02:41 <GregorR> That's why I asked if it was spamming Sgeo.
01:02:47 <GregorR> I was sort of surprised that it wasn't.
01:03:09 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
01:03:09 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
01:07:20 <ihope> Oh, by the way, is there some offline bf_txtgen somewhere?
01:08:51 <GregorR> ihope: Yeah, it's calamari's textgen.java.
01:10:10 <GregorR> http://www.esolangs.org/files/brainfuck/util/textgen.java
01:14:18 * SimonRC learns about _Eragon_ -- the book writen by some kid, published by his parents, and in a superposition of "crap heap of clichés" and "work of a child prodigy".
01:14:29 <SimonRC> Oh, and there's going to be a movie :-S
01:16:05 <SimonRC> ihope: do you have a link for "Timeless"?
01:16:18 <ihope> Nope. I haven't written a spec yet.
01:18:17 <ihope> > is bind, < is return, eh?
01:18:31 <ihope> Well, do you know how monads work?
01:18:53 <ihope> You'll know what bind and return are, then, right?
01:19:31 <ihope> Okay. Now, Timeless has the syntax of Unlambda, plus a few things.
01:19:55 <ihope> It has all the primitives, except the output ones.
01:20:26 <ihope> Now, ~ would have the type IO TimeVar, if it were a Haskell value.
01:20:42 <ihope> It creates a new TimeVat.
01:21:14 <ihope> A TimeVar is a special variable.
01:21:48 <ihope> = sets a TimeVar, so it'd have the type TimeVar -> Value -> IO (), where Value is just a normal value.
01:22:06 <ihope> That is, Value is something.
01:22:24 <ihope> Oh, and TimeVars must be set exactly once.
01:22:43 <ihope> : gets the value of a TimeVar: it'd be TimeVar -> IO Value.
01:23:41 <ihope> Now, the reason that the language is called Timeless and the variables are TimeVars is that if the TimeVar hasn't been set yet, : gives you the value a TimeVar *will* be set to.
01:24:12 <Sgeo> Are there currently any RLE things for BF?
01:24:19 <Sgeo> Because I have an idea in mind for oen
01:24:35 <ihope> Finally, ( is the TimeVar containing input, and ) is the TimeVar that will contain output.
01:24:51 <SimonRC> what if I try to send info back in time?
01:25:28 <ihope> You can't send data into the past; you can only pull it out of the future.
01:26:06 <ihope> Sure, you get the grandfather paradox and every other paradox that comes with time travel, but hey, it's an esoteric language...
01:26:53 <ihope> It's inspired by TwoDucks, by the way.
01:29:27 <ihope> Now, to actually simulate a Timeless program, an interpreter needs to run through every possible thing a TimeVar might get set to in the future, then see whether it actually turns out to have that value or not.
01:30:01 <ihope> Finally, you'll end up with a list of possible outputs.
01:30:54 <ihope> I'll call the computational class required to do this TuringComplete+Halt(TuringComplete)+Enum(BethOne).
01:32:46 <ihope> Look up "Beth number" on Wikipedia.
01:33:03 <ihope> Essentially, Beth(1) = 2^Aleph(0).
01:33:52 <SimonRC> it used to be conjectured that Aleph1=Beth1...
01:34:13 <ihope> Continuum hypothesis?
01:37:23 <ihope> Hmm, aleph(aleph(aleph(aleph(aleph(aleph(aleph(...)))))))
01:38:53 <ihope> That's a big number :-)
01:42:49 * Sgeo pokes at http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/BF-RLE
01:45:15 <ihope> Can I add a note to the article stating that it has nothing to do with BF-PDA and BF-SC? :-)
01:48:25 <SimonRC> Does anyone find this chapter slightly surreal? http://www.htdp.org/2003-09-26/Book/curriculum-Z-H-44.html
01:49:57 <SimonRC> "Understanding the true nature of assignments is difficult." ... "Unless the programmer carefully plans the arrangement of assignments, [mutating values] may be fatal."
01:50:39 <SimonRC> Do you think they are trying to promote functional programing? :-)
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02:28:05 <ihope> "FREE PANCAKES! NO STRINGS ATTACHED!"
02:28:12 -!- calamari has joined.
02:28:17 <ihope> That's good. I don't like strings attached to my pancakes.
02:30:27 <ihope> Right through the center, I imagine.
02:30:57 <ihope> Poke a needle through a stack of pancakes, then tie a knot at each end.
02:31:11 <ihope> That way, your pancakes won't fall apart on you.
02:35:49 <wildhalcyon> Hey, ihope, what do you think about Spore?
02:36:30 <ihope> I doubt it will be "OMG THE BEST GAME EVAR!!!@!!!!1!!!!!1!1" that many fans think it will be, but I think it will be pretty durn good.
02:37:24 <wildhalcyon> Im looking forward to playing it, but Im not sure it has as much to offer people as they think it does
02:37:36 <calamari> where I sit: doing google search to know what game you're talking about ;)
02:37:42 <wildhalcyon> the mechanics of the game feel pretty simplistic at this point, but it may be because I don't know enough about it.
02:37:47 <ihope> On some Spore wiki or another, there's a description of a creature that's pretty elaborate.
02:38:34 <ihope> Somehow I don't think the creature editor will allow you to specify that your creatures will use special arms to inject venom into their victims.
02:39:28 <ihope> http://www.sporewiki.com/Cavewalker_%28Concept%29
02:40:08 <wildhalcyon> http://www.sporewiki.com/Malloon_%28Concept%29
02:40:11 * ihope would love to see Will Wright as a Spore creature
02:41:53 <ihope> Ah, yes. I'm not sure if bubble feet will be in Spore either.
02:43:57 <ihope> Heh. "Um, my bad. I sort of bombed the Greevil's main city."
02:44:43 <wildhalcyon> I know I'll go through a pretty severe sadistic phase for a while though
02:47:29 <ihope> I'd love to just sit back and watch the creature phase.
02:48:03 <ihope> You know. Get through the tidepool phase, and then... yeah. Watch.
02:50:48 <ihope> Now, I don't think I'll actually buy Spore until the system requirements looked silly.
02:51:11 <ihope> Like "384MHz processor and 32MB of RAM" would look today.
02:51:16 <wildhalcyon> Im not sure how high they'll be initially.
02:51:30 <wildhalcyon> Simcity 4 is fun now that my computer can run it ;-)
02:52:32 <ihope> Then once I do buy Spore, I'll make an ISO out of each disk and store a copy of each on each hard drive, and burn each one to an extra CD for good measure.
02:52:49 <ihope> Wait... do EULA's generally allow for only one backup copy?
02:52:58 <ihope> Well, who's gonna find out? :-P
02:53:39 <ihope> Well, after that, I'd spread the serial code thingy all over the place, so I can't lose that either.
02:54:22 <ihope> That's all because I've had bad experiences in the past with losing disks and such, as well as with software just flat out not working.
02:55:54 <ihope> Oh, by the way, the Spore background music will probably be dynamically generated, right?
02:59:14 <ihope> Oh, sheesh, Spore videos are all over the place!
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04:47:02 <Arrogant> At least, it will be once I make sure everything works.
04:47:19 <Arrogant> BALLS_, probably not. I would rather buy it at a grocery store
04:48:00 <GregorR> So, why is that "you win?"
04:50:15 <Arrogant> If you don't like it, I don't care :(
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05:02:17 <GregorR> I'd say Iw in because I did first ;)
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05:12:08 <Arrogant> My language is the reason you created yours, retroactively.
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06:50:02 <Arrogant> GregorR, not that you'll understand what's going on really, but I'll give you a snippet of OO in Rack
06:50:18 <Arrogant> http://paragon.pastebin.com/746217
06:51:07 <GregorR> Arrogant: Looks like just a ripoff of Glass *shrugs*
06:51:40 <Arrogant> Trust me though, it's different
06:56:06 <Arrogant> The language is based around scope and stack manipulation
06:58:12 <Arrogant> Basically, each scope has its own subroutines and a memory tape. And each subroutine has a scope.
06:59:13 <Arrogant> Each scope has an address that can be used to execute code within it
06:59:35 <Arrogant> Wrapping code in () causes it to pop the stack and look up the scope with that address, then execute that code within it
07:00:48 <Arrogant> Also, a subroutine runs code in its own scope.
07:02:06 <Arrogant> $ grabs the address for the current scope, c grabs the address for the calling scope, ^ grabs the address for the parent scope. ! creates a new scope and pushes the address for it. 1 clones the current scope.
07:02:23 <Arrogant> 1 is what allows you to create "classes"
07:02:34 <Arrogant> It's much more like prototyping.
07:03:46 <Arrogant> So... {a:$} causes a to act kinda like a variable. {a} would return its scope address, so {a}(code) executes 'code' in 'a'
07:04:07 <Arrogant> I thought it was pretty good, anyway :/
07:33:44 * Arrogant is unwanted and probably should go jump into the Mediterranean Sea, but can't get there so the river will have to suffice
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14:00:09 <nooga> i have mede sme photos
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19:18:46 <SimonRC> I repeat, Wikipedia is not just an encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_by_gory_death_scene
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20:37:37 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
20:37:39 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
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20:55:21 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
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20:59:34 * SimonRC discovers a great example of computer mathematic not matching real maths...
20:59:38 <SimonRC> "< sjanssen_> ha, what's worse about the Real class is that it's only method is toRational"
21:00:29 <SimonRC> so, the only unique thing about real numbers is that you can turn them into rational numbers. :-S :-Z :-S
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21:19:30 <ihope> "Professor Albus Percivial Wulfric Brian Dumbledore's Army" is a long name.
21:20:42 <ihope> That's probably because "Professor Albus Percivial Wulfric Brian Dumbledore" is a long name.
21:22:22 <ihope> Everybody calls it "D.A.", though.
21:23:10 <poiuy_qwert> thats because its just "Dumbledore's Army"
21:25:21 <poiuy_qwert> well they allways used just "Dumbledore's Army" in the book
21:25:49 <poiuy_qwert> anyone know a good programming text editor, something like Notepad++ but... better and less buggy...?
21:27:36 <ihope> Oh, there are tons of editors out there.
21:28:03 <poiuy_qwert> yeah, ive looked but none have the options i want
21:28:14 <ihope> What are the options you want?
21:28:54 <poiuy_qwert> pretty much every feature of Notepad++ without the bugs
21:29:01 <ihope> So just what will you be editing?
21:29:04 <pgimeno> be careful with what you want, you might get it :)
21:29:07 <lament> what's wrong with vim?
21:29:22 <poiuy_qwert> whats wrong with it is that ive never heard of it
21:30:16 <ihope> As far as I know (not especially far), vim is what most people mean when they say vi.
21:30:28 <ihope> And you can get vim for Windows.
21:30:50 <Sgeo> Any comments of BF-RLE?
21:31:17 <ihope> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/vi
21:31:35 <pgimeno> I was going to suggest bluefish, kate and fte until you mentioned windows
21:31:57 <ihope> Well, maybe you can get those for Windows, too!
21:32:02 <pgimeno> not sure if any of these meets your requirements though
21:32:05 <Sgeo> Kate is a KDE app
21:32:50 <ihope> Maybe you can get KDE for Windows! :-P
21:33:04 <pgimeno> (the list was in descending buggy order, btw)
21:34:40 <pgimeno> apparently FTE has a windows version: http://fte.sourceforge.net/
21:36:24 <pgimeno> strange, can you visit other SF pages?
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21:45:03 <ihope> You've missed SO MUCH... you'd better check the logs.
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21:45:47 <GregorR> lol, I quit through VNC instead of quitting my -L client XD
21:58:41 * ihope starts Adobe Reader
21:58:49 <ihope> I'll be back in an hour or two.
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22:03:33 <ihope> So just how do we convert a Turing machine into a Minsky machine?
22:04:59 <ihope> I guess we'll need plenty of registers.
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22:05:11 <ihope> Apparently two is enough to pretend we have more than two.
22:05:52 <ihope> Well, how can we represent algebraic datatypes in a Minsky thingy?
22:06:21 <ihope> Well, first there's tuples.
22:06:45 <ihope> Well, I guess I oughta start using something else to use at the start of sentences.
22:07:33 <ihope> A tuple (x,y) is represented by 2^x*3^y.
22:09:30 <ihope> Then we can represent trees easily enough: 0 is S, 1 is K, 1+(x,y) is `xy.
22:13:28 <ihope> Hmm. It would probably be much easier to write an SK calculus thingy in lambda calculus than in a Minsky or Turing machine.
22:19:02 <ihope> Lambda calculus can pretty much change to anything at will.
22:19:37 <ihope> "Lambda program, become a 99 bottles of beer program!" "Okay, master! 99 bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer..."
22:34:54 <jix> if you have tuples you can build a stack.. and a tape... if you have a tape and a finite state machine (a minsky machine includes a finite state machine) you have a turing machine...
22:35:58 <jix> but actually you don't want to represent a stack as 2^x*3^(2^y*3^.... you'd represent it as a+b*256+c*256^2...
22:36:18 <jix> and two stacks => tape.... 2^stack_a*3^stack_b ...
22:36:26 <jix> the possiblities are endless
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22:41:17 <ihope> ...Yes! Since lambda calculus is self-modifying, it's possible to compress a program into another program that does the same thing!
22:48:40 <ihope> s/transform/compress (maybe)/
22:55:04 <ihope> But programs like (\x.x)(\x.x)(\x.x)(\x.x)(\x.x)(\x.x)(\x.x)(\x.x)(\x.x)(\x.x)(\x.x)(\x.x)(\x.x)(\x.x)(\x.x)(\x.x)(\x.x)(\x.x)(\x.x)(\x.x)(\x.x)(\x.x) can be compressed quite easily.
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23:29:55 <Sgeo> Any comments on BF-RLE?
23:36:51 * Sgeo pokes http://www.leler.com/hawaii/DSCN0299.JPG with interest
23:39:36 <Sgeo> Should I categorize it under [[Category:Brainfuck]] or [[Category:Brainfuck equivalents]]?
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23:54:28 <ihope> Meh, what was I looking for?
23:56:25 <ihope> Hmm... Synapsida's too specific.
23:57:05 <ihope> Maybe I'm looking for Tetrapoda.
23:57:53 <ihope> Sarcopterygii's definitely too general.
23:58:22 <ihope> Yeah, it's probably Tetrapoda.
23:59:50 * SimonRC has been reading an ineresting little saga: