00:05:09 <GreyKnight> I've got this Lego-based language sorted, I think ;-)
00:05:55 <pikhq> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Dimensifuck is mine.
00:06:05 <pikhq> It's hard to develop a *good* one.
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00:06:57 <pikhq> No, a simple one can be good.
00:07:14 <pikhq> A mediocre/bad one? Easy to design.
00:07:23 <GreyKnight> There's a world of difference between "simple to use" and "simple to implement", of course :-)
00:07:25 <pikhq> Look at most of the Brainfuck variants as an example.
00:07:34 <pikhq> GreyKnight: Simple to implement, of course.
00:07:48 <pikhq> Simple to use wouldn't be esoteric. :p
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00:09:28 <alex89ru> The 2D esoteric languages are really cool :)
00:09:48 * pikhq lubs Dimensifuck still
00:10:50 * GreyKnight considers whether to add OGEL to the wiki now or after he's written an implementation
00:11:58 <Razor-X> Dimensif*ck is a 2D language though ;).
00:12:26 <pikhq> Razor-X: That's only because I haven't yet written a proper ooD program in it.
00:12:35 <pikhq> I've got sketches, but that's it right now.
00:12:59 <pikhq> alex89ru: She just argues that DF is topologically 2D, and that Befunge is topologically 1D. . .
00:13:30 <Razor-X> Befunge is topologically 2D as well.
00:13:40 <Razor-X> Because at any given time you can move in two dimensions.
00:13:51 <pikhq> Not in Befunge. -_-'
00:14:23 <pikhq> Still. . . I really should redesign Dimensifuck so that you'll shut up. ;)
00:14:48 <alex89ru> In which languages have you implemnted the interpreters/compilers?
00:14:53 * GreyKnight ponders a 2D language which edge-wraps into a Klein bottle rather than a torus >:-)
00:15:21 <Razor-X> See, at any given point, you can move in any direction ;).
00:15:42 <pikhq> And, in DF, you can move in any direction from any point. . .
00:16:17 <pikhq> In Befunge, just like in DF, you can't move in two (or more) directions *at once*. . .
00:16:41 <Razor-X> What's the hardcoded instruction to move in the positive direction in the 90th dimension?
00:17:02 <pikhq> It takes multiple instructions. . .
00:17:29 <pikhq> And how am I supposed to fix that and have each operation take up one character?
00:17:47 <GregorR-W> One character == one unicode character
00:17:48 <GreyKnight> and still address an infinite number of dimensions, for that matter?
00:18:20 <GregorR-W> One cell = any number of bytes beginning with '1'
00:18:21 <CakeProphet> There's a bunch of ways you could do it.... if you wanted to be fancy you could...
00:18:33 <GregorR-W> Then cut off the beginning '1's and stick all the bytes together for a bignum.
00:18:34 <Razor-X> How can you generate an infinite number of characters?
00:18:35 <CakeProphet> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[^-]
00:18:55 <Razor-X> CakeProphet: That's not one command.
00:19:09 <GreyKnight> multi-byte cells could do it, but that doesn't look as nice
00:19:12 <Razor-X> You still end up executing ^ repeatedly.
00:19:24 <CakeProphet> Isn't the point of BF to be minimal? What good does having a command for it do?
00:19:45 <Razor-X> Make it topologically equivalent to a n-dimensional space.
00:20:12 * CakeProphet simulates infinity by adding to the arrays when they need adding to.
00:20:26 <Razor-X> I can ``flatten'' any Dimensif*ck program in any number of dimensions in Befunge.
00:26:58 <Razor-X> Oh, I'm wrong, it's topologically three dimensions.
00:27:34 <Razor-X> I should add that to the Wiki entry too.
00:50:56 <alex89ru> I deliberated about an new esoteric language, but i have no originally idea :(
00:52:32 <GreyKnight> Then think how you could compute with that :-)
00:52:50 <alex89ru> an esoteric language that handles with flowers? xD a 2D flowerfield^^
00:53:47 <GreyKnight> things about flowers that come to mind include daisy chains
00:55:58 <alex89ru> it sounds a kind of abstract, such a language that handles with flowers etc
00:58:16 <alex89ru> But how should the source code look like?^^
00:59:48 <GreyKnight> You could have different kinds of flowe
01:00:05 <Razor-X> Think outside of BF, for Esome's sake!
01:01:26 <alex89ru> i need a method ( syntax ) to output some text to shellö
01:01:58 <GreyKnight> suppose different kinds of flower perform different operations, and data is streamed from one to another via pollen
01:03:27 <alex89ru> hmm thx, flowers sounds originally^^
01:03:48 <Razor-X> I had an idea about sine curves and interference.
01:04:57 <alex89ru> hmm, how would you save your sourcecode? in simple text files or as an image or another binary way?
01:05:28 <GreyKnight> text would maybe be easier, although a graphical interpreter could be very pretty ;-)
01:06:02 <Razor-X> That would put people like me away from it :P.
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01:06:33 <alex89ru> Razor-X, but sine curves with drawn with '/' '\' etc ?
01:06:35 <GreyKnight> well, you could have both kinds of interpreter!
01:07:06 <Razor-X> alex89ru: No BF style notation!
01:07:17 <Razor-X> I have no interest in copying BF and/or making another Turing Tarpit!
01:07:39 <Razor-X> It's been done to death, revived, done to death again, and is continuing ad infinitum.
01:07:53 <Razor-X> You can only be so esoteric when you all follow one model -_-''.
01:08:56 <alex89ru> Razor-X, sorry , my english skills aren't so good but i mean: sine curves drwan with '\' and '/' etc as a kind of ASCII ART
01:10:13 <Razor-X> I was thinking specifying period and amplitude specifically.
01:23:25 <alex89ru> okay thank you for your advice
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06:25:56 * GregorR has breathed life into his olde m68k >: )
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06:35:45 <Razor-X> We have a lot of those around mid summer.
06:36:13 <Razor-X> But this machine has been up for 36 days now, so :).
06:36:52 <pgimeno> my personal uptime record is just 90 days, I think I need a new UPS
06:37:12 <Razor-X> I don't own a UPS 'r nothin'.
06:37:23 <Razor-X> Just good 'ol surge protector, $5, from 1995.
06:37:57 <Razor-X> Emacs crashed twice and X hasn't crashed yet, which means this box can still last quite a while yet.
06:39:48 <pgimeno> all my uptime fiascos have been due to either power outages or kernel upgrades
06:40:19 <Razor-X> Luckily the kernel branch hasn't gotten anything worth updating for recently.
06:41:08 <Razor-X> Do, mi nun devas lerni vortoj por Japano. Saluton tutaj homoj, Atendus pri mi!
06:41:16 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah- that's one of the areas OSX fails- I've never had more than about two weeks of uptime, because security updates (among other things) need a restart.
06:48:29 <pgimeno> Razor-X: oh btw, Google is not very brilliant (as expectable) in translating Japanese text but it would be great for me to understand this paper: http://www.sakabe.i.is.nagoya-u.ac.jp/~nishida/DB/pdf/iizawa05ss2005-22.pdf
06:49:05 <Razor-X> Paper? Heh, I doubt I have enough skill to translate a scientific paper.
06:49:31 <pgimeno> the partial translation I've made is here: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/malbolge-jap-eng.html
06:49:36 <Razor-X> Scientific vocabulary adds a good 500 Kanji to the list of Kanji you should know, and I'm nowhere complete.
06:50:08 <Razor-X> I'll do it after I'm done with my vocabulary for today.
06:51:14 <pgimeno> you can even learn Malbolge as you go :)
06:51:29 <Razor-X> I'm struggling with young adult novels, just to give you an idea of my skill level in Japanese.
06:52:32 <pgimeno> if you can disentangle Google's translation that would be enough
06:52:45 <pgimeno> 4.1 Ability OPR and ROTATE order as a function of operator op are suitable to the bit operation and shift operation of C language.
06:53:52 <pgimeno> (that's made by systematically copying line by line the text into Google, quite tedious)
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12:58:36 <nooga> sHoWeL -> Hei Writing Language
13:09:44 <nooga> have u got some other samples?
13:15:46 <GreyKnight> @<0,0>{@<1,0>(YWYsYBWsYWG)} @<0,0>(WBsWBsWB)
13:17:14 <GreyKnight> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/OGEL
13:17:44 <GreyKnight> excuse the mess, the page is half-finished... try the link at the bottom to the original specification for some more info :-o
13:18:17 <GreyKnight> It's a language made from lego bricks :-D
13:21:50 <pikhq> That means that Razor-X isn't likely to complain.
13:24:57 <nooga> it could be simulated by real lego bricks
13:28:10 <GreyKnight> Using minifigures for the processors :-D
13:28:48 <nooga> i'm in fscking love
13:46:31 <nooga> i think it would be possible to program OGEL using MLCAD
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13:48:06 * pikhq feels like t3h shit
13:49:04 <nooga> ocmpile MLCAD output files and un them ;d
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15:08:43 <nooga> http://www.loken.pl/~afurman/poland.html
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15:43:50 <nooga> author has a complex
15:45:10 <GreyKnight> The author has a stick up his bottom :-)
15:46:17 <GreyKnight> Anyone who actually believes that Pole/Scotsman/Irishman/etc jokes represent actual solid fact is too far gone to have everything cleared up by a few declarative paragraphs
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16:13:41 <GreyKnight> Your source code would be a set of webpages, linking to each other
16:14:16 <GreyKnight> possibly rivalling OGEL for the position of best language evar
16:14:43 <nooga> programs distributed between weblogs :d
16:15:09 <GreyKnight> you could publish a function library on your site and other people could use it just by linking to it :-)
16:16:35 <GregorR-W> You just described JavaScript. I don't care what you're actually talking about, you just described JavaScript.
16:16:56 <GreyKnight> I mean that the network of hyperlinks actually *is* the code
16:16:57 <GregorR-W> Mind you, I only saw the last bit :-P
16:17:50 <GreyKnight> I guess you could make some sort of foreign-function-call interface to JS
16:19:15 <GregorR-W> On an only vaguely-related subject, I made some improvements to Plof :P
16:21:56 <nooga> io would be content
16:22:58 <GreyKnight> wait wait... I guess the code has to be *executed*, so the interpreter can do all the I/O :-P
16:23:30 <GreyKnight> You could have a click-to-execute network, but it'd basically be a JS-implemented compiled version
16:24:22 <nooga> working network can print strings to documents
16:25:46 <GreyKnight> I should make an actual spec instead of meaningless chatter
16:26:04 <nooga> tyhe net should consist of specially prepared documents
16:26:38 <GreyKnight> It will for any sensible program, but any network of links should be, in theory, executable
16:27:24 <nooga> what's that GregorR?
16:28:03 * GreyKnight waits for pastebin.ca to catch up with the real world
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16:34:49 <GreyKnight> You just described JavaScript. I don't care what you're actually talking about, you just described JavaScript.
16:35:48 <GregorR-W> It's somewhat similar to JavaScript. But less ugly.
16:35:54 <GregorR-W> IMHO it has a more robust object system.
16:36:21 <GregorR-W> You'll note that plof2js is the only compiler ATM ;)
16:39:29 <ihope> So what's Plof have for arrays/lists?
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16:40:06 <ihope> What's the difference?
16:40:35 <GregorR-W> Arrays are numeric, always contain x elements where x is max_element_number+1, and are stored like arrays.
16:40:58 <GregorR-W> Associative arrays are by-string, and are arranged in a system-defined way.
16:41:57 <GregorR-W> Also, associative arrays == objects == classes.
16:42:15 <ihope> So what can you do with an associative array?
16:42:17 <nooga> class is an object?
16:42:28 <GregorR-W> nooga: It's prototype-based object orientation.
16:42:46 <GregorR-W> ihope: Store mappings of values to other values.
16:43:13 <ihope> So it's an array thing indexed by strings?
16:43:45 <GregorR-W> Check any language newer than C :-P
16:43:59 <nooga> i mean those classes that r objects
16:44:11 <GregorR-W> Ruby is class-based, not prototype-based, IIRC.
16:44:25 <ihope> So Plof is dynamically typed?
16:44:49 <nooga> it's like: myClass = Class.new; myClass.methods["blah"] = Proc.new {do_something}
16:44:51 <ihope> Is it duck typing or something else?
16:45:32 <GregorR-W> ihope: Sort of. Also, objects carry with them a type array which references every object they're derived from.
16:45:42 <GregorR-W> So you can, instead of using duck typing, check if the type matches.
16:45:57 <GregorR-W> Hence it implements class-like inheritance, interfaces, etc.
16:46:02 <ihope> If the type matches, it's a duck?
16:46:18 <GregorR-W> Well, that's not strictly duck typing :P
16:46:34 <GreyKnight> "If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck"?
16:47:42 <ihope> So how many languages have both "return" statements and "result" variables?
16:48:11 <nooga> result stmt is shit
16:48:39 <ihope> Well, if you can take "return" as a parameter...
16:48:59 <nooga> and moreover, i like when block returns result of last statement if theres no return within
16:49:27 <GregorR-W> Plof can be used functionally - that is, any function can be described as an expression instead of a series of statements.
16:49:48 <ihope> In pseudo-C: id(result){}
16:49:59 <ihope> That'd be the identity function.
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17:29:38 <ihope> Hmm. Goldbach's conjecture is clearly true.
17:29:52 <ihope> Not that I can prove that :-P
17:30:20 <GreyKnight> "It is comparatively easy to make clever guesses; indeed there are theorems, like 'Goldbach's Theorem,' which have never been proved and which any fool could have guessed."
17:31:13 <ihope> You didn't tell me where it was from! YOU'RE A THEIF!
17:31:27 <GreyKnight> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/GoldbachConjecture.html
17:31:32 <ihope> Or a THIEF. Something like that.
17:34:49 <ihope> They're gonna come and arrets you.
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18:09:12 * GreyKnight decides whether or not to implement this language as a Kolmogorov machine
18:12:19 <GregorR-W> DO IT! DON'T DO IT! DO IT! DON'T DO IT!
18:13:55 <GreyKnight> It's the part where a K machine can add vertices to the network that troubles me
18:15:20 <GreyKnight> I guess I can pull it off... it's not like the modified network is being written back to the intarnets
18:16:45 <GregorR-W> DO IT! DON'T DO IT! DO IT! DON'T DO IT!
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22:33:22 <ihope> I feel all leet and stuff because I created a redirect from #haskel to #haskell.
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22:37:44 <GreyKnight> Re http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Kolmogorov_machine : Does anyone have pointers on this addressability requirement of the Kolmogorov property? It's very hard to find any resources on this topic.
22:44:02 <ihope> My interpretation: the vertices must form a tree, and each edge must have a name such that there can't be two edges with the same name on one vertex.
22:44:48 <ihope> "An alternate technique is to use a directed graph and simply to label the edges of the graph, with a different label bestowed upon each out-edge of a vertex."
22:44:52 <GreyKnight> well, the wiki says that's *sufficient* for the condition to be met
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22:47:17 <GreyKnight> hmm, this paper I found seems to indicate that the resulting string of labels from a point constitutes a relative "address" for the target point, which seems plausible
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22:49:04 <fizzie> The addressability requirement _sounds_ like it means just that you need to be able to have a vertex r and a function f:V,X->V (where X is some set, and V the set of vertices), for which it holds that for all v \in V, there is a x \in X, for which f(r, x) = v.
22:51:47 <ihope> I can redirect ##quantum wherever I want! Muahaha!
22:52:11 <GregorR-W> Somehow I don't think there's a #bearcave on FreeNode.
22:52:26 <GregorR-W> Unless it's the main channel for HomOS
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22:52:52 <GreyKnight> #bearcave 3 Idle here and set up an ON JOIN script if you are cool xD
22:53:29 <fizzie> If it _really_ is "wherever", just redirect it to #bearcave on some other network.
22:55:02 <ihope> Actually, I'll do the reverse, and have #debian, #gentoo, ##linux, and #ubuntu all redirect to ##quantum.
22:55:29 <GreyKnight> Hmm; it's an interesting point that K machines are pretty similar to the human brain
22:56:57 <GreyKnight> Nobody seems to have presented any suggestions on how to actually go about storing data in these things :-\
22:57:55 <ihope> There's a command to add a node, no?
22:58:54 <ihope> Nodes can be used as storage by using dummy links. It's the links that the little bug thing sees, isn't it?
22:59:20 <GreyKnight> It looks at the shape of the graph in a certain radius (>=2) around the current node
22:59:45 <GreyKnight> so the data is being stored in the topology somehow, I guess
22:59:52 <ihope> Oh, say, why don't I have ##quantum redirect to some honeypot channel thingy?
23:00:41 <GreyKnight> "number of edges connecting the current node to dead-end nodes"?
23:00:55 <GreyKnight> That could encode any non-negative integer
23:02:19 <ihope> Counting them is inefficient.
23:02:39 <ihope> Call them data1, data2, data3, etc., and store a bit in whether they exist or not.
23:03:20 <GreyKnight> based on the label attached to the edge going to that node?
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23:04:04 <GreyKnight> The number of different labels in use has to be finite, though
23:05:34 <GreyKnight> this approach has the advantage that it can deal with negative quantities, so that's good
23:05:54 <GreyKnight> but as it stands, it seems the values will be restricted :-\
23:07:14 <GreyKnight> Unless... use some of the labels for bit positions, then have one that can be used to "extend" to another set of bits (it links to a node with more bit-position-edges sprouting off it)
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23:07:42 <GreyKnight> That'd get you any number of bit positions, but keeps it simple when you only have a small range
23:09:35 <GreyKnight> I'm intrigued that there is talk of a "current node", but apparently no command for changing it :-\
23:23:13 <ihope> "The Windows honeypot is an unpatched version of Windows 2000 or Windows XP. This system is thus very vulnerable to attacks and normally it takes only a couple of minutes before it is successfully compromised."
23:25:41 <ihope> Are Windows machines really that full of holes?
23:26:08 <GreyKnight> I guess if the processor has some internal value set to one of the possible labels (to move down an edge) or "nil" (to stay put), that could manage movement
23:26:54 <GreyKnight> adding/removing vertices/edges requires some means of addressing them, so it'd need to have storage for sequences of labels too
23:27:56 <fizzie> The "survival time" counter in http://isc.sans.org/ is currently at 16 minutes.
23:29:07 <GreyKnight> it should be stored in some sort of graph :-)