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00:35:49 <ihope_> So self-modifying programs are hard to compile efficiently?
00:38:08 <ihope_> As in it isn't so, or what?
00:39:17 <GreyKnight> It would appear to be the case that, inasmuch as a program possesses the ability to modify its own code, it is difficult to compile in a clean and efficient manner.
00:46:14 <pikhq> . . . Um, wouldn't compiling for a Von Neumann architecture make self-modifying code *easy* to compile?
00:46:42 <pikhq> (Call me ignorant)
00:47:00 <ihope_> Von Neumman architecture?
00:48:21 <GreyKnight> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_neumann_architecture
00:49:56 <ihope_> Well, it might be easy to compile, but not necessarily easy to compile efficiently.
00:50:08 <GreyKnight> And while it might be "easy" to compile in a general sense, it's still harder than a program that just sits and does something sanely :o)
00:51:15 <ihope_> Compiling self-modifying BF into the x86 architecture "the easy way" would probably result in inefficient stuff.
00:51:39 <pikhq> Oh, you want efficient/optimized?
00:51:48 <pikhq> Yeah, you might as well solve the halting problem.
00:52:39 <ihope_> For an FSA, I'm assuming...
00:54:25 <ihope_> Finite-state automaton.
00:54:42 <pikhq> Not for an FSA. A Turing machine. :p
00:56:18 <ihope_> With cells containing ordinal numbers that can't be raised, maybe?
00:56:55 <pikhq> No, a Turing machine, as published in Turing's paper. . . ;)
00:57:28 <ihope_> Do I get to write it in Brainhype?
00:58:14 <pikhq> No. For the Universal Turing Machine, bitch.
00:58:59 <ihope_> But that's impossible!
00:59:15 <GreyKnight> There's more than one way to skin a cat :o)
00:59:22 <pikhq> ihope_: My point exactly.
00:59:42 <pikhq> GreyKnight: I'm making the UTM an arbitrary requirement.
01:02:43 <ihope_> You're saying it's impossible to optimize self-modifying code, then?
01:03:32 <pikhq> Actually, it's impossible to be sure that you've made any code perfectly optimised.
01:03:43 <pikhq> IIRC, you would need to solve the halting problem to do so.
01:04:02 <ihope_> What if the self-modifying code is merely PDA-complete?
01:04:47 <pikhq> Then it could be possible.
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01:06:16 <ihope_> I thought there was a client at the other end of ihope.
01:09:28 <ihope_> Ulch, that meat was tainted! You feel deathly dick.
01:10:01 <pikhq> You also ate ihope's dick, so you feel deathly dick as well. :p
01:12:07 <ihope_> You die from your illness. Do you want your possessions identified? [yn] (n)
01:12:10 <pikhq> But you *did* eat his corpse.
01:13:19 <ihope_> Oddly enough, "Do you want your possessions identified? [yn] (n)" gets no Google hits.
01:13:42 * pikhq was already a zombie :p
01:14:12 * Sgeo looks at http://www.dailycharity.cjb.net/
01:31:20 * ihope_ suddenly goes crazy and hits random things with other random things
01:31:52 * ihope_ runs in a random direction, then downloads a random program
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01:35:11 * pikhq is way too proud of BFM. . .
01:36:35 * pikhq got bored, and wrote a macro system for Brainfuck. Whee.
01:37:30 <ihope_> What's the adjective form of "paradigm"?
01:43:00 * pikhq rewrote his little Brainfuck uncompression program in BFM. . .
01:46:01 <pikhq> It differs in size by a handful of characters (only because my standard macros library is paranoid about clearing cells) when one strips comments from the compiled BFM code. . .
01:47:13 <pikhq> The difference, though, is that the uncompiled source is much more readable. ;)
02:06:17 <pikhq> . . . And I scared everyone off.
02:06:51 <pikhq> Is it my fault that I tried making Brainfuck a saner place?
02:10:15 <pikhq> BTW, when I look at the resulting code from BFM, if I ignore the overexuberant commenting, I end up thinking "Jeez, this Brainfuck coder was paranoid.". . .
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03:47:50 <pikhq> A comparison between BFM coding and Brainfuck coding:
03:48:09 <pikhq> BFM coding time for compress.bf: ~15 minutes.
03:48:25 <pikhq> Brainfuck coding time for compress.bf: Not yet finished.
03:48:32 <pikhq> Started a few days ago.
03:50:02 <pikhq> It'll look a bit more impressive once I get around to writing stdcons.bfm, though.
03:50:17 <pikhq> Currently, it's doing one-cell versions of each constant.
03:52:19 <pikhq> Other than that, and it's paranoid usage of [-], it looks like what you'd expect from a human writing the code. . .
03:53:03 <pikhq> . . . Fine. The output code is overcommented, too.
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03:56:22 * pikhq loves his little bit of work. :D
03:57:25 <pikhq> Before, I was proud.
03:58:22 * pikhq should register #bfm :p
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04:11:20 <pikhq> It's a macro package for Brainfuck that I wrote. . .
04:12:55 <pikhq> Don't have a macro written for it yet.
04:14:00 <pikhq> Quite frankly, I don't care enough about that to write one for it.
04:14:07 <calamari> I have written some code that only requires 2 cells per array element.. it's in bfbasic, which is hopefully still hosted on sf.net someplace :)
04:14:56 <pikhq> Doesn't seem to work very well with how the macro system works, anyways.
04:15:00 <pikhq> No relative addressing in it.
04:15:47 <calamari> btw, you knew that bf macros have been created before (many years ago)?
04:16:18 <calamari> probably nothing like what you have, so it's still cool :)
04:17:32 <pikhq> I pretty much was bored, and felt like writing it.
04:17:48 <pikhq> http://nickv111.is-a-geek.com:8080/~pikhq/bfm.tar.bz2 has my last tarball.
04:18:12 <pikhq> I'm going to try and release another tomorrow, which will include, among other things, a collection of useful macros.
04:27:21 <RodgerTheGreat> ASSIGN phrase "pimpcash" : ADJECTIVE; CONNOTE @ "good" MODIFY "doubleplus"; END ASSIGN
04:31:14 <RodgerTheGreat> y'know, pikhq- I could hook you up with a *significantly* nicer file host/ shell/etc, if you're interested.
04:37:44 <pikhq> It's my friend's box, just so you know. . .
04:37:51 * pikhq is mildly interested, though.
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05:23:30 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: how does SSH/SFTP access, 2gb of storage, webhosting, GCC, and anything else (anything open source that is) that you want sound?
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14:56:39 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Ooooh. Could be handy.
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16:46:17 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bfm.tar.bz2 New tarball up.
16:49:29 <pikhq> Including a standard macros library. :)
16:50:27 <pikhq> Although I've not tested all of them, so. . .
16:52:09 <pikhq> Any old code examples should work with this new version.
16:52:22 <pikhq> However, this new version has gotten slightly fancier. . .
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23:25:56 <RodgerTheGreat> y'know, I almost asked a java question in here, and then a tiny part of my brain screamed "GOD NO, YOU'LL BE EATEN ALIVE!"
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23:31:16 <pikhq> I don't eat Java fanatics.
23:31:21 <pikhq> They don't taste any good at all.
23:31:28 * RodgerTheGreat punches out of GreyKnight's stomach and gleefully runs away with his spleen and kidneys
23:31:51 * GreyKnight smacks RodgerTheGreat around the head repeatedly.
23:31:56 <RodgerTheGreat> and who said I'm a fanatic? I *use* java, I don't worship it.
23:32:03 * GreyKnight begins to pray... All of the gods suddenly decide that RodgerTheGreat is unworthy! RodgerTheGreat is blasted to smithereens by a lightning bolt!
23:32:34 * RodgerTheGreat is an atheist, and is therefore unaffected by GreyKnight's imaginary friends
23:32:40 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Ah, so you're just *dipped* in shit, not made of it. :p
23:33:22 * pikhq is a Christain, and is willing to do God's work for him
23:33:39 <GregorR-W> pikhq: "just *dipped* in shit" Brilliant XD
23:33:42 * pikhq gets out a huge-ass capacitor bank, which is fully charged.
23:34:21 <pikhq> So, you're in flight?
23:34:43 * pikhq has two ends to hit you with. . .
23:34:45 <GreyKnight> He'll land in Timbuctoo somewhere, I think
23:35:09 <pikhq> I'm willing to ground you.
23:35:32 <GregorR-W> Must ... not ... read as sexual euphemism ...
23:36:14 * pikhq holds up a wire, which is connected at one end to a grounding rod in the ground
23:37:16 <GregorR-W> GreyKnight: Sexual euphemism is a form of innuendo.
23:37:59 <GreyKnight> http://greyfire.org/picture_library/o-vraiment.png
23:38:31 <GregorR-W> GreyKnight: Vhat de fuck? Bork bork!
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