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04:59:09 <Razor-X> Recomendation for a good book: Machine Learning, by Tom M. Mitchell.
04:59:50 <Razor-X> Most of the books on it at our local University-joint public library are *awful*. Some are decent.
05:01:06 <Razor-X> Wow. calamari's even worse than me.
05:01:11 <Razor-X> I've finished two projets also.
05:01:30 <Razor-X> And I'll have to finish one for school. So that'll make 3.
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16:46:02 <SimonRC> Oh dear, it seems some guy has invented the "piles of papers randomly scattered on desktop" UI metaphor.
16:46:11 <SimonRC> http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/06/10/30/0325217.shtml
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21:24:20 <RodgerTheGreat> SimonRC: the "no GUI" design concept is a promising one, but it'll certainly require working with computers in a dramatically different manner than we do today
21:31:31 <oerjan> like they did 30 years ago?
21:37:43 <oerjan> my intuition on this is that gestures might perhaps replace keyboard shortcuts to a degree, but for me one of the plusses about gui's is that you can look through the menus for things you don't already know how to do, or that you do rarely enough not to bother remembering a shortcut
21:39:51 <RodgerTheGreat> I really dislike the concept of a heirarchal menu- they hide information and options, rather that displaying them
21:40:27 <RodgerTheGreat> what an informed and well-constructed counter-argument, sir.
21:40:33 <GregorR-L> Most programs have more options than anybody wants to use.
21:40:48 <GregorR-L> Toolbars are nice, but still require a certain knowledge about the function of the sofware.
21:40:55 <RodgerTheGreat> that's my point- people should be able to remove options they have no use for.
21:41:19 <GregorR-L> 1) And what, add options they don't know the program has by means they don't know?
21:41:37 <GregorR-L> 2) And wonder what those stupid icons do, because there's no room for text on the toolbar?
21:41:54 <GregorR-L> 3) And be required to have a precise grasp on ---
21:42:03 <GregorR-L> OK, you've mentioned tooltips, thereby invalidating everything.
21:42:42 <oerjan> so, a good interface should have several levels, from user customizable parts to documentation parts. surely this is not new
21:43:01 <RodgerTheGreat> menus work reasonably well in single-levels, but nested menus are an interface design mistake
21:44:25 <GregorR-L> Nested menus are an unfortunate fact of complicated systems.
21:45:03 <GregorR-L> Are they always intuitive? No. But they're sure a lot better than huge, flat, unnavigable menus.
21:46:11 <RodgerTheGreat> I think the basic concept behind "Office Assistants" was horrifically implemented, but contains some good ideas.
21:46:41 <RodgerTheGreat> an anticipatory GUI, if well designed, could do an excellent job at managing large featurelists
21:47:23 <RodgerTheGreat> the problem with "Clippy" is that it gets in your way, does a poor job of determining what you're trying to do, and isn't well integrated into the interface itself.
21:47:24 <oerjan> of course nothing is going to help a user who cannot explain what he wants, anyhow...
22:01:11 <RodgerTheGreat> I like the idea of an interface where editors and viewers become transparent- for example, a document would be represented by an icon that resembled it (as is becoming common), but then you can simply "zoom in" and have it fill the screen, with a small selection of tools to apply to the document appearing nearby
22:01:33 <RodgerTheGreat> kinda LISA-esque, in the "there are no applications" sense.
22:02:43 <GregorR-L> Such interfaces assure vender lock-in.
22:03:36 <GregorR-L> The philosophy is nice, but pragmatically it's a can of worms.
22:05:09 <RodgerTheGreat> there are a variety of ways you could extend a system like that.
22:05:55 <oerjan> it doesn't have to assure vendor lock-in, you could surely reassign file types to a different application
22:06:48 <RodgerTheGreat> operating systems already govern the GUI's used by applications, so this is just going a step further
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