00:16:03 <xor> well, TI-89Ti
00:16:22 <Razor-X> I'm sort of bemused by the fact that mainstream CS has the exact opposite sentiment of this channel.
00:16:41 <xor> What is the sentiment of this channel?
00:16:55 <Razor-X> Experiment with new ideas, have fun coding.
00:17:17 <xor> What's the sentiment of mainstream CS?
00:17:27 <Razor-X> Learn OOP. Program in Java.
00:17:47 <Razor-X> I wonder what the OS programmers of tomorrow will be like, if there are any.
00:18:42 <Razor-X> Even the future of embedded programming.
00:20:12 <Razor-X> Moreover, I think CS will become a field of uptight I'm-doing-it-for-the-money programmers, which makes me think that innovation will slow to a crawl.
00:22:01 <pikhq> Razor-X: That's because we're hackers, not computer scientists.
00:22:38 <Razor-X> pikhq: But hackers are what will, IMO eventually, decide whether the field will die into interlocked obscurity for a bunch of years, or actually continue to innovate.
00:23:02 <pikhq> Razor-X: Hackers, by definition, will continue to innovate.
00:23:15 <Razor-X> Yeah, but I think the hacker pool will decrease over time.
00:23:33 <pikhq> The free software community begs to differ.
00:23:53 <Razor-X> Hah. A vast majority of them aren't hackers.
00:24:02 <Razor-X> I mean the new recent explosion.
00:24:34 <Razor-X> Linux toiled in obscurity when it was hacker haven. Now it's being mainstreamed. I have no problem with that but, I'm foreseeing a temporary hacker-death.
00:25:36 <Razor-X> At some subconscious point, I think hacking comes from seeing the innards of something and realizing that normal human beings created it. I mean, think about it. No-one really tries to hack telephone lines anymore.
00:26:05 <Razor-X> Less and less of the innards are showing each and every day, and it's not something we're fixing, but creating tighter scaffoldings over lower componenents.
00:26:14 <xor> The days of phreaking sounded fun
00:26:22 <xor> I wish I was around back then
00:27:20 <Razor-X> Although the PC is something I'd shudder to live without.
00:28:47 <pikhq> Razor-X: The free software community is something that works to allow the existence of hackers, in essence.
00:29:10 <pikhq> s/community/movement/
00:29:31 <pikhq> It keeps the innards shown to all of the world.
00:29:54 <xor> Most people just want free software so they don't have to pay
00:30:42 <pikhq> xor: Thus why I refer to the movement.
00:31:03 <pikhq> The free software *movement* is driven by a wish for freedom, not merely low price.
00:40:54 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:54:29 <Razor-X> Well, it's not always just free software (but I admit, this is where it excels).
00:55:10 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
00:55:43 <Razor-X> The demand for non-implementation-level software is just dying because, we're using monoliths, and no-one's encouraging people to rewrite things like driver code.
00:56:02 <Razor-X> Although in accordance with the recent Linux explosion, Windows (I think) has been having a relative low-level explosion.
00:56:51 <pikhq> Near as I can tell, hackerdom won't actually die. It may suffer from a temporary die-off, but it has this tendency to come back, stronger than ever.
00:57:07 <Razor-X> I fear the temporary die-off.
00:57:36 <pikhq> It'll be the *second* one Stallman
00:57:44 <pikhq> 's lived through, though. ;)
00:57:58 <Razor-X> Computers are becoming more and more entrenched. It's the wrong time for hackerdom to die.
00:58:38 <Razor-X> No offense to Stallman's generation but, a dying late-'70s hackerdom would only affect a few critical things.
00:58:42 <pikhq> On the bright side, hackerdom will, no doubt, take down those who are in it for money alone down with it.
01:00:25 <Razor-X> Likewise, I think the hackerdom needs to produce more documentation and learning material.
01:00:54 <pikhq> Without documentation & learning material, we lose opportunities for new blood. . . Surely, this is a bad thing.
01:01:18 <pikhq> The fight for source code itself, of course, must continue. . . But without documentation, what the hell are we going to do with the code?
01:01:40 <Razor-X> Code is useful, but only to the point to that you can follow the thought process of the writers.
01:02:08 <pikhq> Which is damned difficult in esolangs, at least. :p
01:03:36 <Razor-X> My own approach to beginning programming documentation is intuitive, because I also think that anything but mainstream coding has too much by way of CS-``sophisticated'' literature.
01:06:02 <Razor-X> With so many abstractions, it's hard to remember that programming is a gigantic bunch of 0's and 1's.
01:06:41 -!- wooby has joined.
01:07:44 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
01:08:02 * pikhq feels that he's made the abstractions in BFM a bit more. . . Sane.
01:09:11 * pikhq wonders why he's talking about that
01:11:51 -!- CXI has joined.
01:27:14 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
01:30:29 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
01:38:08 -!- pikhq has joined.
01:59:22 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection).
02:01:28 -!- Sgeo has joined.
02:15:33 <xor> pikhq: Becuase it's interesting?
02:15:47 <pikhq> xor: Sounds 'bout right.
02:16:07 <pikhq> Anyways. . . In BFM, declaring the memory location of a variable is optional now.
02:16:35 <pikhq> Same applies to strings.
02:16:57 <pikhq> In fact, with the new string support, declaring the memory location of a variable is very, very unwise.
02:17:30 <xor> Shame you wrote it in tcl ;)
02:17:48 <pikhq> But that's the best part!
02:18:55 * xor came up with something a while ago that you guys would apreciate
02:18:58 <pikhq> Writing in Tcl gives me a one-line parser!
02:19:14 <xor> A grammar for english that is lisp-like
02:19:49 <xor> (verb args)
02:19:54 <xor> (modifer args)
02:20:13 <pikhq> That'd make some AI researchers very happy. ;)
02:20:21 <xor> (rocks it)
02:23:59 <xor> (? (what (think you (about it)))
02:24:42 <pikhq> (, (no (rocks it))) (much (very (rocks it))))
02:25:06 <xor> Asztal: The subject of a verb shouldn't be implied
02:26:13 <xor> actually, nevermind, I misunderstood
02:28:42 <xor> (think i (is cool it))
02:29:18 <pikhq> (think I (= cool it)), if you want to be more Lispy. :p
02:29:53 <pikhq> One can then use = in math, sentences, etc.
02:30:38 <xor> (=) is numeric equality though
02:30:44 <xor> wouldn't it be (eq) ?
02:32:06 <pikhq> Not if we use an untyped Lisp, and have numbers represented as lists (IIRC, this is how the original paper had Lisp set up).
02:39:47 <xor> (not (matter it))
02:42:15 <xor> (laugh you)
02:44:29 <xor> (read I (about lisp))
02:45:25 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
02:45:45 <pikhq> (no (read xor (about lisp)))
02:47:26 -!- Asztal has joined.
02:47:27 <pikhq> Just wanting to be contrary.
02:47:47 -!- Asztal has quit (Client Quit).
02:53:03 <xor> I don't like how common lisp has different namespaces for variables and functions
03:01:23 <pikhq> I think I'd prefer different namespaces for libraries & other forms of linguistic extensions. . .
03:03:21 <xor> I like how python does it
03:05:09 <xor> Functions and variables are the same, and libraries (modules) are accessed like modulename.funcname
03:06:43 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
03:06:49 <pikhq> Thus, libraries are sequestered into seperate namespaces. . .
03:07:21 <pikhq> In Tcl, while not required, this is how libraries are typically set up.
03:08:14 <pikhq> (a small handful of libraries (Tk and Expect come to mind) clutter up the global namespace, but that's because they're rather old libraries, from before Tcl had namespaces, and so namespaces aren't used so old code still works)
03:08:38 -!- Sgeo has joined.
03:09:11 <pikhq> And it'd be accessed "::modulename::procname".
03:09:26 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
03:09:55 <xor> GregorR-L-V-T-M
03:10:27 -!- wooby has quit.
03:12:15 -!- ihope has joined.
03:12:15 <pikhq> string foo "BFM now has C-style string support. Joy unto the world."
03:12:37 <ihope> Now all we need is !bfm_txtgen.
03:12:51 <xor> That one is going to be hard...
03:13:17 <pikhq> Make it an Egobot daemon or something. ;)
03:14:50 <pikhq> Um. . . What did you do?!?
03:15:34 -!- Arrogant has joined.
03:21:41 <xor> grr I want rpn on my calculator
03:21:53 <ihope> I want Haskell on mine.
03:22:15 <xor> WHat calculator?
03:25:55 -!- ihope has quit (Remote closed the connection).
04:11:51 <xor> haskulator is better
04:13:26 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving").
04:17:48 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
04:19:38 -!- Sgeo has joined.
04:38:52 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection).
05:12:58 -!- pikhq has quit ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/").
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
09:09:22 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
09:25:54 -!- RodgerTh1Great has joined.
09:27:04 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
09:41:54 -!- jix has joined.
09:48:22 -!- ivan` has quit (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-").
09:56:53 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
10:20:28 -!- RodgerTh1Great has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
12:14:28 -!- tgwizard has joined.
14:06:12 -!- jix_ has joined.
14:22:35 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
14:28:46 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
16:14:37 * SimonRC wonders why all american schoolkids have programmable/graphical/RPN calculators. I don't think many people at my school had anything like that.
16:21:37 <CakeProphet> SimonRC, Because of new-fangled technology
16:24:58 <SimonRC> Upon reading the "death of hacking" conversation above, I suddenly had a vision of the Second Coming Of Stallmann, like a hairier version of Jesus.
16:30:59 -!- tgwizard has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:11:56 <Razor-X> That would be interesting :P
17:12:34 <Razor-X> The top 4 out of 5 most popular projects on SourceForge are P2P related projects. How nice.
17:35:19 <SimonRC> I have been fiddling with some numbers and find that traditional piano tuning is based on the equality: 531441 == 524288
17:58:21 -!- pikhq has joined.
18:50:26 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:18:17 <pikhq> Bring back EgoBot.
19:22:34 <lament> SimonRC: "traditional"?
19:26:14 <SimonRC> the one where a fifth is a 3/2 ratio
19:26:36 <SimonRC> GregorR: What were you doing with the DVDs?
19:54:03 -!- EgoBot has joined.
19:58:54 <xor> SimonRC: At my school we are required to buy a TI-83 or TI-84
20:01:01 <xor> It is very TI centric
20:05:38 <xor> High school
20:06:38 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:26:11 -!- Asztal has joined.
20:31:40 <GregorR> SimonRC: What I'm doing with the DVDs is clearing up my hard disk :P
20:42:58 <lament> SimonRC: i don't think that has ever been a traditional piano tuning
20:45:14 <lindi-> xor: how can they require you to buy anything in the first place?
20:58:18 <xor> lindi-: They just do
20:59:06 <lindi-> xor: what happens if you don't?
21:07:10 -!- ivan` has joined.
21:19:59 <SimonRC> lindi-: I don't think it is any worse than requiring schoolchildren to wear uniforms.
21:24:00 <lindi-> SimonRC: but many manufactures can probably produce those uniforms
21:34:09 <xor> lindi-: Not sure what they do if you don't
21:34:38 <lindi-> xor: i used hp-71 in high school but most used ti-86
21:35:35 <xor> I never bought a ti-83, but I guess my calculator is similar enough. I can't use it on exams though.
21:38:21 <xor> The teacher usually lets me borrow a crappy ti-83 for tests
21:42:45 <xor> I love my ti-89
21:50:17 -!- Asztal has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.72-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.1b2/0000000000]").
21:59:51 <lament> i was somewhat screwed on the provinical math exam in high school because i didn't have a ti-83
21:59:57 <lament> and entire big questions relied on having it
22:00:28 <lament> but i passed the exam, so the calculator clearly isn't all _that_ necessary
22:00:39 <xor> Instructions in my math and physics class go "push button 1, then button 2..."
22:01:17 <lament> you're in high school?
22:02:01 <lament> well, just ignore it then
22:02:12 <lament> it's high school, who cares.
22:10:12 <xor> My physics class is more of a "learn to use your ti-83" class
22:12:10 <ivan`> AP Physics assumed you can do trig and algebra in your sleep and that you could calculator-solve in record time
22:30:28 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:32:20 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:16:05 -!- wooby has joined.