00:15:25 <tokigun> food! well breakfast time is passed... :S
00:18:41 <lament> GreaseMonkey: because we don't give a shit.
00:18:58 <lament> GreaseMonkey: it would make some sense if you were talking to begin with.
00:19:02 <lament> GreaseMonkey: but you weren't.
00:36:33 <pgimeno> breakfast time is passed for me too (good night)
00:43:56 <tokigun> http://sobo.ruree.net/tmp/malbolge.txt almost done. chapter 7 discusses general method of programming, just summary of chapter 4, 5, 6.
00:53:23 <tokigun> bsmntbombdood, i've put some newlines. and my english is not good enough for doing so
00:55:52 <tokigun> well, i'll welcome if someone suggests correction and so on of course...
01:03:59 <bsmntbombdood> not sure what to do with "Several special programming languages are called esoteric programming language; they are designed not like general programming languages, so a program in these languages is hard to write or understand."
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01:08:40 <tokigun> eh, i mean "some PLs are called esolang; their design criteria is different with general PL -- that is, hard to write or understand the program" maybe
01:09:23 <tokigun> (i've dozed while translating, here is 10:00 am)
01:09:54 * pikhq would like to apologise for the delay in BFM's release. . .
01:10:56 <pikhq> I found the Tcl style guide. . . I'm trying to follow it exactly.
01:10:56 <bsmntbombdood> Some programming languages are considered esoteric -- that is, hard to write or understand.
01:12:35 <pikhq> The style guide mandates (shock) documentation and comments. . .
01:14:36 <pikhq> oerjan, at least, should be glad. ;)
01:17:54 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: "this" refers to. . .?
01:17:58 <bsmntbombdood> http://bsmntbombdood.mooo.com/malbolge.txt , english-ized up to line 78
01:19:13 <oerjan> japanese, as translated by a korean into english?
01:19:48 <pikhq> I'm guessing that it's Korean, since if it were Japanese, I ould read at least some of it. ;)
01:19:53 <pikhq> (untranslated, that is)
01:20:10 <pikhq> As it is, it looks like /dev/urandom to me.
01:20:26 <tokigun> japanese translated into korean first (mostly mechanically), and translated into (poor) english by me
01:22:22 <tokigun> i have to sleep now... have a nice day (or night, depending on your timezone) :)
01:57:56 <Razor-X> Meh. I've translated Chapter 1.
01:58:27 <Razor-X> Hopefully it has Englishization, but it's hard to map Japanese tenses to English.
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03:20:51 <lament> how many tenses does japanese have?
03:22:25 <pikhq> {past,present,can't-remember-what-the-te-form/-ing-form-would-be}{plain,formal}
03:25:16 <oerjan> -ing as in present participle?
03:25:24 <pikhq> That'd be it, I believe.
03:25:33 <pikhq> Future tense? Bah, humbug. ;)
03:25:44 <oerjan> although -ing has two different meanings in english
03:29:20 <lament> i'm guessing japanese has enough tenses. all languages do.
03:29:28 <lament> Where "enough" is like 15.
03:29:48 <lament> It just might be using relatively unusual ways of differentiating them
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03:30:41 <pikhq> I count a small handful that I know of.
03:30:42 <oerjan> gerund was the word i was looking for
03:31:09 <lament> i assume japanese has some way to express the subjunctive?
03:31:18 <pikhq> Gerund, in Japanese. . . Formal "desu" or "de gozaimasu" (the latter being more formal), plan "da".
03:31:35 <pikhq> Since I can't remember what the subjunctive is, I wouldn't know ATM. ;)
03:32:22 <lament> "I wish I were a fish", were is subjunctive
03:33:08 <lament> what about conditional? "I would swim"
03:33:08 <oerjan> norwegian just uses ordinary past tense for it, by the way
03:34:55 <lament> Russian has a special mood indicator particle
03:34:56 <oerjan> every language can express anything but they differ in what distinctions are mandatory to express
03:35:32 <lament> except for that language where there're no numbers :)
03:36:02 <lament> you're _probably_ right but who knows
03:36:13 <lament> i mean you're in a direct contradiction to sapir-whorf
03:36:54 <pikhq> lament: "tai" ending. . . To be honest, though, the "tai" ending makes the whole verb. . . thing into an adjective.
03:37:42 <pikhq> "Tabemasu." -> "tabetai desu." == "I eat" -> "I want to eat."
03:38:01 <lament> oerjan: there's this portuguese word, "Saudade", and you certainly can express it in English, but it requires a whole Wikipedia article to do so...
03:40:20 <lament> similarly, russian doesn't have the verb "to be" (well, not really), so "I think therefore I am" is translated as "I think therefore I exist", which is quite a bit less visceral
03:40:34 <lament> bsmntbombdood: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudade
03:41:07 <bsmntbombdood> "feeling of longing for something that one is fond of, which is gone, but might return in a distant future. It often carries a fatalist tone and a repressed knowledge that the object of longing might really never return."
03:45:12 <bsmntbombdood> I wonder if there's any english words that are that complicated
03:46:54 <pikhq> You make the false assumption that there are english words that *aren't* that complicated.
03:47:06 <lament> bsmntbombdood: "Saudade" isn't complicated. It's simply saudade.
03:47:44 <lament> It's not the fault of Portuguese that English requires a long sentence to translate it.
03:48:06 <lament> Obviously the English translation of English words is not gonna be complicated.
03:49:20 <lament> bsmntbombdood: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Untranslatability
03:50:31 <lament> "Serendipity" is a very good one
03:58:11 <Razor-X> Tenses in Japanese ignoring honor level: Present, Past, Progressive, Volitional, Impression, Desire, others I can't remember.
03:59:00 <pikhq> Razor-X: Thank you for filling in what I forget.
03:59:03 <Razor-X> Some of the tenses (Impression and Desire are some offhand) have multiple versions, and then you have honorific forms and humble forms (and by extension, humble honorific forms).
03:59:21 <Razor-X> (And, of course, coarse forms.)
04:00:02 <pikhq> And, of course, there are no future tenses. ;)
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04:01:26 <Razor-X> The language is pretty neat but, the gulf between levels of prose is immense.
04:01:57 <Razor-X> What you'll hear spoken is almost nonexistant in, say, a teen novel, and these all pale to what you can find in something like a thesis paper.
04:02:33 <lament> that's true of every language.
04:02:43 <lament> I'm reading Harry Potter right now in Spanish
04:02:54 <lament> it's scary how complicated the language is :)
04:02:59 <lament> (to a total newbie like me)
04:03:08 <Razor-X> Well, I can read Harry Potter in Japanese, to an extent.
04:03:25 <lament> OTOH i have looked at real Spanish writers and their spanish is mindblowing
04:03:30 <Razor-X> But the grammar is really easy. Just the vocabulary.
04:04:11 <lament> bsmntbombdood: y como? sabes lo bien?
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04:05:03 <lament> ah, chido, no te molestare
04:05:56 <lament> Razor-X: spoken language is always way easier than everything else
04:06:05 <lament> learn 300 words and you're all set :D
04:07:27 <Razor-X> Still, there are some things about Japanese that are annoying.
04:08:17 <Razor-X> Most of Japanese has almost *no* compound words, unlike the Romance/Germanic languages. Well, maybe they were compound, but Japanese changed so dramatically during the reforms that it's almost impossible to trace back.
04:09:47 <Razor-X> And of course you have the whole Kanji system, which is annoying at a certain level, but beautiful at another.
05:56:17 <lament> it's funny how in Chinese, the characters are neither particularly annoying nor particularly beautiful
05:56:22 <lament> they're just how people write stuff
05:56:34 <lament> and in Japanese, they get this special position
06:08:20 <ShadowHntr> i like the quote brackets they use in japanese.
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16:35:32 <pikhq> GregorR: The next release of BFM should be able to run readily in EgoBot. . .
16:35:56 <pikhq> I'm currently working on an interpreter pass. ;)
16:36:33 <pikhq> Also, since BFM can now read in code from stdin. . . You've got your work cut out for you.
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17:01:23 * pikhq should probably get off his ass and finish making the bloody changes to BFM
17:44:07 <pikhq> Pretty much where I'm at involves finishing the interpretation pass, frobbing with the command line parser a bit, and tarring it up.
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19:16:17 * pikhq notes that the Esolang contest *still* isn't done.
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20:19:55 <oerjan> Of ''course'' the esolang contest still isn't done. It is a long standing tradition that those contests never get judged :)
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22:31:41 <Rugxulo> Brainf*** question: is decrementing 0 supposed to stay at 0 or not?
22:32:06 <GregorR-L> Most will wrap to 255 (or their bitwidth), some will crash, some will stay 0.
22:32:14 <GregorR-L> Some even support proper negative numbers.
22:32:30 <GregorR-L> The original implementation would wrap to 255.
22:33:38 <Rugxulo> Gregor, ever written anything in BF?
22:35:15 * Rugxulo has only written three things, and they ain't too fancy/interesting :P
22:37:08 <Rugxulo> (1). counts from 9 to 1, (2). counts from 0 to 9, (3). accepts a single byte input and outputs 'five' if it was '5' (simple stuff, obviously, not that impressive)
22:37:44 <Rugxulo> oops, I meant "counts down and prints the numbers w/ a space b/w 'em" (yeah, not that cool)
22:38:23 <GregorR-L> Well, in a language like BF, it's pretty crucial that you get the simple stuff down pat.
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