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01:34:00 <pikhq> Allow me to present:
01:34:06 <pikhq> BFM: The Next Generation.
01:34:17 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bfm.tar.bz2
01:34:29 <pikhq> Has to be, like, the first tarball out in a month.
01:35:31 <pikhq> All formerly valid BFM code is still valid. . . However, this build provides features that make for much more legible code (both in BFM code and in the compiler's code). . .
01:36:21 <pikhq> Additionally, a simple BFM interpreter is provided, as well as the "string" command, the "eval" command, and the ift, whilet, and whilet1 macros.
01:36:46 <pikhq> (look at the source in stdlib/ for more info on them)
01:38:44 <pikhq> It's what allows if, ift, whilet, and whilet1 to work.
01:39:04 <pikhq> macro if {var code} {} {} {while var {eval code}}
01:39:27 <pikhq> macro if {var code} {} {} {while var {eval code;set var 0}}
01:39:52 <pikhq> Basically, it allows one to *execute* one of the arguments to a macro.
01:47:53 <pikhq> The most *obvious* new feature to you, oerjan, should be the complete and utter rewrite of the compiler. ;)
01:49:11 <bsmntbombdood> Anyone have any ideas for a project for an independant study in programming for school?
01:49:50 <pikhq> A program idea generator.
01:49:51 <oerjan> you are crazy enough to ask ''us''?
01:50:11 <pikhq> Prove Malbolge Turing complete.
01:50:24 <oerjan> but it isn't. finite memory.
01:50:51 <pikhq> oerjan: But it has the infinite input and output tapes.
01:51:36 <oerjan> that doesn't help much
01:52:08 <pikhq> Unless one uses those tapes for access to an external memory device.
01:52:57 <oerjan> well, theoretically it might be enough to loop output back into input
01:54:10 <oerjan> giving you enough for an infinite queue
01:54:36 <pikhq> That'd work rather well.
01:55:36 <oerjan> what, who says we left your topic? (:C
01:57:05 <oerjan> you could write an interpreter for a simple (but non-esoteric) toy language
01:57:17 <bsmntbombdood> I don't think my teacher would be ok with an esoteric language
01:57:25 <pikhq> He said non-esoteric.
01:59:52 <oerjan> write a simulator of something...
02:02:36 <oerjan> something physics-related, perhaps
02:03:28 <lament> write a simulation of the universe.
02:05:17 <oerjan> or you could simulate something with humans, such as christmas shopping...
02:12:16 <pikhq> Thoughts on BFM: TNG?
02:12:26 <pikhq> (aside from "there's better things to work on!")
02:13:48 <oerjan> i'm afraid at the moment it's "I'm too tired too look at it right now"
02:16:25 <oerjan> spent some hours reading a pdf book on proofs and types
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04:33:09 <Razor-X> bsmntbombdood: Come up with an idea.
04:33:22 <Razor-X> I have an idea which I've discussed here before, but it's already licensed, so poop :P
04:33:46 <Razor-X> I was doing the initial implementation in Java, but it may change to CL, depending on whether I take the AP test or not.
04:35:18 <Razor-X> Come on. You must've come up with *some* ideas in your experience in programming? Something done wrong, something not quite modern enough, etc, etc.
04:35:46 <Razor-X> bsmntbombdood: The idea for a lossless UDP mass transfer protocol minimizing ACKs.
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04:36:51 <Razor-X> Come up with a metadata tagging format for MP3, extra kudos for a format applicable to other music encoding filetypes, that allows you to be expressive *without* being hopelessly baroque like ID3v2.
04:37:33 <pikhq> BEGIN INTERNET RELAY PROGRAMMING STATEMENT:
04:37:46 <pikhq> bsmntbombood, please come up with an idea for yourself.
04:37:50 <pikhq> END IRP STATEMENT.
04:38:08 <Razor-X> You have to come up with the tagging format, and write code to demonstrate the tagging format's flexibility and ease of use.
04:52:22 <bsmntbombdood> Should take a semester, and be "advanced". (advanced in his mind isn't very advanced
04:55:45 <pikhq> You've got enough time to write a simple kernel, methinks.
04:56:04 <pikhq> Show him what's really advanced. :p
04:57:29 <RodgerTheGreat> there are many operating system components that would be a sufficient challenge- a window manager, a package manager, a filesystem, etc.
05:02:38 <RodgerTheGreat> you're missing the point. There are virtually no tasks for which workable software is completely unavailable. This doesn't make it pointless to build your own.
05:03:50 <RodgerTheGreat> there is no such thing as an "original idea", only improvements based on observation of existing solutions and problems.
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05:06:53 <RodgerTheGreat> rather than attempting to come up with a groundbreaking project, find an existing piece of software that you feel you can make better.
05:30:41 <Razor-X> A window manager would be a pretty fun project.
05:31:14 <Razor-X> Depending on the language you do it in, and how closely you want to follow the XDCCP (? forgot the name of the standard).
05:32:07 <RodgerTheGreat> you could choose between a wide range of levels of complexity, which makes it a good project for a class- if things go badly, you can scale back. If things go well, you can add features
05:33:10 <RodgerTheGreat> twin -> http://linuz.sns.it/~max/twin/screenshots/twin-on-X11.png ^_^
05:33:23 <Razor-X> Shameless lisp plug: http://paste.lisp.org/display/19072
05:33:34 <Razor-X> That's a CL WM that's implemented in a handful of lines.
05:36:25 <Razor-X> Mmm. I can't find the URL.
05:36:30 <Razor-X> TinyWM is the name of the WM.
05:37:56 <RodgerTheGreat> http://incise.org/index.cgi/TinyWM <- this appears to be coded in C and Python, but has similar functionality and structure
05:40:02 * pikhq would be liable to just write a Tcl WM, just to prove it could be done
05:43:29 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: It's the same WM.
05:43:37 <Razor-X> It's been ported to CL, is all.
05:48:19 <Razor-X> Why use Python when you can use CL?
05:51:52 <bsmntbombdood> I can't understand lisp without an editor that matches parens for me
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06:10:55 <pikhq> Why the nested netsplits?!?
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06:13:13 <Razor-X> Pexps feel so ... uncouth after using sexps for long enough, IMO.
06:13:35 <Razor-X> P-expressions, the counterpart to S-expressions.
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06:13:45 <lament> i think sexps are superugly.
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06:13:56 <pikhq> Thought the counterpart was mexps.
06:14:02 <lament> When i was your age :D
06:14:11 <Razor-X> So it's an age thing, huh?!?!
06:14:27 <Razor-X> One one one !!??? question question
06:14:31 <lament> well, i understand why one would like them
06:14:35 <Razor-X> I'm trying to pull off a teenage AOLer thing.
06:14:50 <lament> and i don't like ugly.
06:14:58 <Razor-X> Well, I find them easy to read, and very expressive.
06:15:10 <pikhq> Of course, I think that Tcl's beautiful. ;)
06:15:16 <lament> they're conceptually very elegant, but ugly in practice.
06:15:26 <lament> I used to like that, but no longer do so.
06:15:38 <Razor-X> I haven't found any syntax that marries both well.
06:15:42 <lament> In particular, right now i think the usual math notation is way, way prettier.
06:15:57 <lament> even though conceptually it's absolutely horrible.
06:16:20 <lament> and yes, obviously you can't have both
06:16:27 <pikhq> I think that usual math notation's fugly.
06:16:29 <lament> but you can have degrees...
06:16:31 <Razor-X> Conventional expressions are godawful, and the only other syntax I've encountered is OCaML which looked so awful, I put the language down immediately on seeing the syntax.
06:16:49 <lament> "conventional expressions"?
06:16:58 <lament> is haskell really that bad?
06:17:01 <Razor-X> Pexp/Mexp (too lazy to look it up)
06:17:15 <pikhq> 2+2=4 <- conventional expression
06:17:36 <lament> i think haskell has the best mixture of conceptual elegance vs. prettiness
06:17:45 <lament> it has the same "feel" as math notation
06:17:51 <Razor-X> I became a significantly better lisp coder after Haskell, lemme say. Haskell really made the points click and made me appreciate the differences between dirty functional languages and pure functional languages.
06:18:08 <pikhq> vs (= (+ 2 2) 4), 2 2+4=, [= [+ 2 2] 4]. . .
06:18:09 <lament> yet unlike math notation it makes perfect sense :)
06:18:15 <Razor-X> And code something nontrivial for a full experience.
06:19:35 <Razor-X> I got the code for parsing ID3v2.2 headers working. Hooray. Time to add in ID3v2.3 and ID3v2.4.
06:19:45 <Razor-X> And I'll add in generic functions for each tag.
06:20:54 <Razor-X> You can embed pictures in ID3v2 tags you know. I mean, who can't live without pictures embedded in metadata?
06:21:30 <pikhq> Same people who can't live without object-oriented coffee making apparati.
06:22:18 <Razor-X> What's wrong with my individial coffee beans being subclasses of an abstract Bean class?
06:23:24 <Razor-X> I must say, I revise my opinion on OOP after taking a good look at the real CLOS. I like CLOS a lot better than message passing object systems too.
06:24:36 <pikhq> That's great and all, but your coffee making apparati don't need an object system to make damned good coffee.
06:25:18 <pikhq> Mine doesn't even having Turing completeness, much less an object system.
06:25:28 <Razor-X> It saves memory if it encounters the same coffee bean as added in a hash table, so when it comes to Coffee.blend, it's more effecient.
06:26:49 <pikhq> int coffee(beans coffee[SIZE_OF_FILTER]) {hot_water(coffee);return coffee}
06:27:24 <Razor-X> Hopelessly underperforming according to today's Modern CS Standards (TM).
06:28:06 <pikhq> Modern CS Standards (TM), of course, include severe over-complexity, under-performing, and general stupidity.
06:28:15 <lament> pikhq: i bet your coffee filter sucks, though.
06:29:57 <Razor-X> public abstract class Coffee { bean[] filter; public Coffee (int size) { filter = new bean[size]; } public abstract void Blend; }
06:30:03 <pikhq> lament: And I bet Razor's takes as much space as the oven.
06:30:26 <Razor-X> That's just a *part* of what a True Coffee Machine by Modern CS Standards (TM) should have.
06:30:45 <Razor-X> void Blend being dependant on your vendor-specific blending method.
06:31:02 <pikhq> New coffee maker. . .
06:35:19 <Razor-X> I love it how CS just gets farther and farther, but hasn't fixed the probably oldest problem in the entire CS world -- bad comments.
06:36:36 <Razor-X> I'm using a CL library to easy binary file-structure reading and writing right now, and it's a good library but, it's documented like a piece of poop, and in some places his code is pretty hard to follow (in particulary, a place where he uses a temporary slot binding to create a temporary list returned by a lambda function and then bound in a let form).
06:37:01 <Razor-X> s/particularly/particular/
06:42:33 * pikhq should go to sleep. . .
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20:23:14 <Razor-X> bsmntbombdood: No it's not.
20:23:29 <Razor-X> You can't have generic functions in a message-passing object system.
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20:25:17 <Razor-X> But that's not a generic function either.
20:26:11 <pikhq> The ACT has killed my brain cells, I'm afraid.
20:26:40 <pikhq> Or at least temporarily numbed them.
20:27:24 <pikhq> ". . . What the hell? I haven't done this since 8th grade!!!"
20:31:04 <SimonRC> Don't message-passing and generaic functions contradict one another?
20:31:42 <SimonRC> Because with message-passing one of the objects is more important than the others, but with generic functions, all of the arguments are equal in status.
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20:39:01 <oerjan> you could send a message to _all_ the objects
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20:45:26 <SimonRC> oerjan: How would *that* work?
20:45:32 <pikhq> oerjan: Thoughts on BFM:TNG?
20:46:30 <GregorR> These are the voyages of the BrainFuck Macro Language.
20:46:34 <GregorR> Its continuing mission ...
20:46:43 <oerjan> that would be up to the objects to decide, they would probably have to form a committee :)
20:47:05 <oerjan> to boldly code where no (wo)man has coded before
20:47:52 <SimonRC> oerjan: ITYM, to boldly code more inefficiently than anyone has coded before.
20:48:25 <pikhq> SimonRC: Actually, BFM is the most efficient Brainfuck macro system out there.
20:49:53 <SimonRC> Is it turning into a compiler?
20:50:16 <SimonRC> And I meant brainfuck is inefficient, not BFM.
20:50:24 <pikhq> It. . . *Is* a compiler.
20:50:28 <pikhq> And an interpreter.
20:51:22 <pikhq> I should probably rename it, though, because there's another, radically less efficient language by the name of BFM.
20:52:50 <pikhq> macro show-memory {} {} {} {forceinline #}
20:53:39 <pikhq> Although that's more of a binary level debugger. . .
20:54:10 <Razor-X> And where are the breakpoints?!
20:54:13 <pikhq> The "be0" command allows one to see some of the compiler's internal state, though.
20:54:20 <pikhq> Razor-X: Who needs 'em?
20:54:53 <pikhq> Best one of them all. XD
20:55:09 <pikhq> Seriously, though. . .
20:55:17 <Razor-X> Well, to be A New-Age Debugger, you need a shiny GUI coat on it.
20:55:29 <pikhq> The only practical method of debugging ATM is with the Brainfuck source.
20:56:35 <SimonRC> You could get the compiler to annotate the binary with line numbers and variables, and turn off all optimisations.
20:57:00 <SimonRC> that would be quite debuggable with a BF-level debugger
20:57:10 <pikhq> Compile with the options "-O 0 -g".
20:58:24 <pikhq> Or just "-g" if you want to see what the optimization does to the code.
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21:09:38 <SimonRC> hmm http://swivel.com/graphs/show/1001967
21:13:46 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: Have you seen the graph of the number of pirates against global temperature?
21:14:13 <SimonRC> That's why we have "Talk Like a Pirae Day", you know.
21:16:18 <SimonRC> http://www.venganza.org/pirate.pdf <-- the best renering of it.
21:16:50 <pikhq> It's the Pastafarian Christmas.
21:23:43 <pikhq> Talk Like a Pirate Day. -_-'
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21:27:58 <Razor-X> So are OSS writers essentially Robin Hoods?
21:28:06 <Razor-X> Stealing from the rich and giving to the poor?
21:29:42 <pikhq> We cut out the middle man.
21:29:49 <pikhq> We are the rich, giving to the poor. :p
21:30:41 <pikhq> The *filthy* rich.
21:31:07 <pikhq> We've not been successful at taking from him very much yet.
21:31:43 <Razor-X> But he's been very successful stealing from everyone else.
21:32:10 <pikhq> Which is a problem. . .
21:32:40 <pikhq> Our end goal is to become Robin Hoods. Our current state is the poor giving to the less poor.
21:33:13 <Razor-X> Yeah. That does make me feel more happy.
21:33:29 <Razor-X> RMS is probably not very rich, but he knows enough people to get a free ride in any country in the world.
21:33:44 <pikhq> Rms is actually rather poor. . .
21:34:15 <pikhq> He lives off of prize money and cash for speaking in public.
21:34:17 <GregorR> I'll bet he could get into N. Korea.
21:34:27 <Razor-X> But I'll bet he couldn't get out.
21:34:53 <pikhq> He could get in only if he told the whole populace except Kim Jong Il that he was going to assasinate Kim. :p
21:35:30 <pikhq> It's an unpaid position.
21:36:03 <Razor-X> Then again, if N. Korea is as Red as it seems, he wouldn't need a free ride there.
21:36:47 <pikhq> He's lived for the past several years in his office at MIT. . . He can't have that much money. ;)
21:37:00 <Razor-X> One day N. Korea will open up, and we'll realize that they have self-cleaning roads and hover-vators, and traffic is mitigated through several levels of semi-arial traffic.
21:37:55 <Razor-X> And we'll weep in shame as we'll discover that N. Korea's technology far exceeds our own pitiful existances.
21:38:11 <pikhq> What has leaked out of N. Korea suggests that the populace doesn't have enough freedom of motion to justify roads, much less self-cleaning ones.
21:38:19 <Razor-X> Message Paid for by The Party. The Party. It's Where You Go.
21:38:45 <Razor-X> Maybe they were just brainwashed into forgetting the wonders that they saw?
21:38:47 * pikhq gets hit in the head by The Beloved Leader's Boys
21:39:01 <pikhq> I MEAN THE BELOVED LEADER!
21:46:43 * SimonRC attempts to correct pikhq's misconception of money: http://paulgraham.com/gap.html
21:47:19 <SimonRC> Do not confuse stealing wealth with creating it.
21:48:51 <SimonRC> The amount of wealth in the world is not fixed.
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