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00:03:47 <lament> it allows you to use bash on windows, for one.
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00:31:21 <calamari> lament: I installed Linux on my work machine
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00:37:43 <ihope> Say, that reminds me of something.
00:38:02 <ihope> It reminds me of the word "symbioses".
00:38:22 <fax> hmm synergy comes to mind
00:38:44 <bsmntbombdood> I need to figure out how to model computation with genetics
00:39:04 <fax> I need to figure out J's computation model :S
00:39:07 <fax> its really hard..
00:39:28 <ihope> Wow. Apparently humans have thousands of species of bacteria living inside them.
00:39:44 <ihope> Meaning... YOU'RE NOT REALLY HUMAN. (At least, not fully.)
00:41:49 <ihope> Now, that's interesting.
00:41:52 <ihope> It's also really gross.
00:42:57 <ihope> Here we go, then: "Bacteria make up . . . 60% of the mass of feces." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora
00:44:02 <ihope> What makes up the remaining 40%?
00:44:11 <RodgerTheGreat> and it certainly shows that there's no such thing as "waste"
00:44:56 <ihope> Let's eat some cellulose-digesting bacteria!
00:47:24 <RodgerTheGreat> we'd have to engineer it to survive in the very specific heat and ph conditions in the human intestinal tract
00:48:22 <ihope> Say, do you know how protein digestion works? Surely we don't have enzymes that go around breaking down every protein in sight.
00:49:33 <RodgerTheGreat> well, in most cases, you have enzymes designed to lyse specific amino acid bonds
00:50:11 <ihope> Only found in certain areas?
00:50:16 <RodgerTheGreat> this happens after the proteins have been denatured by stomach acid, so they're in strands rather than complex folded shapes
00:50:37 <RodgerTheGreat> long strands get cut into shorter, more manageable strands progressively
00:50:51 <ihope> Stomach acid denatures them... indeed, it would. Just what is denaturing?
00:51:06 <RodgerTheGreat> it's when a change in ph alters the folding of a protien
00:51:58 <RodgerTheGreat> this is why proteins have to be designed to operate in a very specific range, near which they operate at reduced capacity, and beyond which they completely cease functioning
00:53:58 <RodgerTheGreat> that's related to why humans run fevers when we get sick
00:54:52 <RodgerTheGreat> the nervous system reacts to infection by raising body temperature- running hot- in order to decrease the efficiency of or destroy invading viruses/bacteria
00:55:26 <RodgerTheGreat> but if body temperature gets too high, it can start to damage human tissues
00:56:23 <RodgerTheGreat> biology is something that just kinda clicks for me, so feel free to ask if you have any other questions
01:03:53 <ihope> I'm good with biology too.
01:04:09 <ihope> And with languages and math, for that matter. :-P
01:04:33 <ihope> On the second day, did God also create bacteria?
01:05:32 <fax> I dont think god created anything..
01:06:38 <ihope> Both English and other.
01:06:48 <ihope> Not that I'm actually fluent in any other languages.
01:07:12 <RodgerTheGreat> on the first day, there was nothing. And from nothing came matter, energy, the forces of the universe. Long this universe was sterile and barren, until a chance arrangement of molecules began to self-replicate. That was the moment everything changed.
01:07:56 <ihope> Earth changed plenty. I don't think the other planets noticed.
01:12:54 <RodgerTheGreat> ironically, the two things the human mind is incapable of truly grasping are polar opposites- Nullity and Infinity. I hypothesize that these failings are the root of the perceived requirement for an initial moment, a "beginning of time".
01:14:02 <RodgerTheGreat> we can manipulate these concepts symbolically, inferring their meanings from their connections to different ideas, but ultimately they just don't fit into people's worldviews.
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01:23:26 <GregorR> Let's put "its" in it's purest form, eh?
01:23:51 <ihope> Zero has a purest form?
01:24:13 <ihope> Is it the empty set, then?
01:24:22 <RodgerTheGreat> fer cryin' out loud, I was speaking figuratively! Can I wax poetic every once in a while?
01:24:38 <GregorR> Not unless you use proper grammar.
01:24:56 <ihope> Infinity: that which is greater than every integer.
01:25:42 <GregorR> Errr, I would say "number" there.
01:26:01 <GregorR> It's feasible that one could define irrational numbers greater than the greatest integer but smaller than infinity.
01:26:24 <GregorR> Mind you, I don't know of any :-P
01:27:10 <ihope> There is no good mathematical definition of "number".
01:27:38 <GregorR> Sure there is ... it's the union of the sets "rational number" and "irrational number"
01:27:48 <ihope> That's "real number".
01:28:09 <ihope> And besides, for every real number, there's a bigger integet.
01:28:11 <GregorR> Err, damn, that's what I was thinking X_X
01:28:13 <ihope> s/integet/integer/
01:29:30 <GregorR> My head is melting over my attempts to make sensible reference semantics for Plof :(
01:30:15 <ihope> Reference semantics?
01:30:45 <GregorR> So that I can do things like: associativeArray.element(3) = foo;
01:33:14 <bsmntbombdood> GETHASH returns a regular value, but it's somehow a valid lvalue too
01:33:59 <ihope> GregorR: make a function called element* or some such that returns a pointer, then have the function element automatically return what it points to?
01:34:35 <GregorR> OH, are you talking about in the implementation? I'm not worried about the implementation, I'm talking about the language itself.
01:34:48 <ihope> Make that statement equivalent to associativeArray.element*(3, foo);?
01:34:57 <ihope> Essentially, have a "set" function.
01:36:09 <bsmntbombdood> make the assignment operator assign to whatever address the lhs returns
01:36:21 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: that's pointers, isn't it?
01:36:29 <ihope> What's wrong with pointers, now?
01:37:10 <GregorR> I don't want to do something special with assignment, I'd rather have a generally useful semantic for references ... if possible >_>
01:37:28 <ihope> GregorR: so... pointers?
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01:37:41 <GregorR> Well, pointer (to me) imply pointer arithmetic.
01:38:53 <GregorR> You've lost a bit of context here X-P
01:39:15 <ihope> Well then, call them references instead and don't allow pointer arithmetic.
01:39:25 <GregorR> ihope: That doesn't solve my original problem.
01:39:36 <GregorR> I'd like to be able to do: someobject.blah(3) = 4;
01:40:26 <ihope> GregorR: references wouldn't allow that?
01:40:38 <GregorR> Not the ones you're describing, they'd need an explicit dereference.
01:41:12 <ihope> You could make = always implicitly dereference.
01:41:36 <ihope> Or do you want someobject.blah(3) to return an "assignable integer" or something like that?
01:41:39 <Pikhq> Or you could make them real pointers.
01:42:11 <ihope> Either you have an explicit dereference or you have an implicit dereference. Or set functions.
01:42:11 <GregorR> Here's the crux: I need to return a reference, and that reference needs to have different semantics as an rvalue than it does as an lvalue. However, returning involves passing a value into the return function, so it's an rvalue X_X
01:42:56 <GregorR> Anything that isn't an lvalue :)
01:43:10 <GregorR> Something which can be assigned to.
01:43:30 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: I can't overload "=" because of the very nature of Plof.
01:43:32 <bsmntbombdood> when assigning to an object x, put the value in &x
01:43:53 <GregorR> That would make simple variable assignment ambiguous X_X
01:43:54 <ihope> So it needs to have different semantics when it can't be assigned to and when it can?
01:44:18 <GregorR> My definition wasn't very accurate ...
01:44:39 <ihope> Then give an accurate one?
01:44:54 <GregorR> If you have a variable 'a' with the value 3, 'a' is a valid lvalue, but evaluated as an rvalue it's 3.
01:45:05 <GregorR> I'm tryin', I'm tryin' X-P
01:45:18 <bsmntbombdood> GregorR: Have them evaluate the same way, is what i'm saying
02:10:09 <GregorR> Err, that's a valid question here :P
02:10:15 <GregorR> Variables are an example of lvalues.
02:10:25 <GregorR> Basically, if it /could/ appear on the left of a =, it's an lvalue.
02:15:05 * ihope codes up the union of BF and vanilla regexes
02:16:19 <Pikhq> Why not just the bastard child of Lisp and C?
02:17:17 <ihope> That would be too complex.
02:18:41 <Pikhq> Well, we've already got the child of Smalltalk and C++ going in #plof. . . ;)
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04:38:30 <Pikhq> ぼくは日本語でとても上手じゃない、よ。
04:39:07 <bsmntbombdood> heh, xterm knows how to render that, but xchat doesn't
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04:42:34 <Sukoshi> さあ、上手にななってみるねぇぇ。エレガントな気持だわ。
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04:43:23 <Sukoshi> さあ、上手にななってみるねぇぇ。エレガントな気持だわ。
04:43:50 <Sukoshi> とにかく、昨日、アンタは私を聞いたいことがあった。何か、あの質問？
04:45:14 <Pikhq> Sorry, but my Japanese really *isn't* that good.
04:45:58 <Pikhq> En esperanto: Mi estas japana lingva komencanto.
04:50:01 <Sukoshi> You wanted to ask me something in Japanese yesterday.
04:50:51 <Pikhq> I just wanted to say that I got my IME working. . .
04:50:55 <Pikhq> And that's all I said.
04:51:34 <Pikhq> Unless, of course, you think 「やった！」is a question. . . XD
05:00:43 <Sukoshi> Oh, I could've sworn you asked me something *shrug*.
05:11:33 <CakeProphet> YOU ALL GET A ROSE - http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j316/adamadamadamamiadam/rose.jpg
05:21:27 * lament changes the channel name to #flowers
05:23:39 <CakeProphet> mmmm.... C-like include stuff is kind of bad methinks
05:23:54 <CakeProphet> er... wrong channel... but we're all pretty much over on #plof too
05:25:18 <Pikhq> Of course, my personal language has a #include-like "source" command.
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06:09:18 <RodgerTheGreat> so I was working on the operator listing for Bullet, and this is really looking out of hand:
06:13:07 <RodgerTheGreat> I was kinda considering overloading the bitwise and logical operations on top of each other with some type of syntax to specify that the operations are working in a particular mode, but that doesn't simplify anything
06:15:44 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm considering completely removing the assignment operator family in favor of a different way of structuring commands that are entirely assignments.
06:16:07 <RodgerTheGreat> because when you really get down to it, they aren't conventional "operators"
06:17:13 <GreaseMonkey> e.g. if((i=getidx())>=0){ printf("Name: %s\n",array[i]); }
06:17:50 <RodgerTheGreat> well, getting rid of =/== differences could dramatically reduce a number of types of coding errors.
06:18:37 <RodgerTheGreat> and while that one-liner is clever, it doesn't really demonstrate good coding practice. It doesn't ultimately save any operations once it runs through a compiler.
06:19:02 <GreaseMonkey> hmm, i think it cuts out an instruction or two
06:19:21 <GreaseMonkey> doing i=getidx() on its own reloads i entirely, i think
06:20:32 <GreaseMonkey> hmm, i find it still faily readable, and less cluttering
06:20:44 <GreaseMonkey> though i prefer if(){ oneline; } to if() oneline;
06:21:25 <RodgerTheGreat> in fact, I'm definitely going to make block delimiters for one-liners required.
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06:21:49 <RodgerTheGreat> it improves readability if tabbing gets fucked up or someone has odd whitespace conventions
06:22:52 <GreaseMonkey> with my old plan for tomato and new plan for potato, you had no choice because anything between {} is a function, and if was like if(cond,{stuff;});
06:23:11 <GreaseMonkey> doing if(cond,stuff); would make stuff execute unconditionally
06:24:00 <RodgerTheGreat> here's another thing- do you think powering should be a primitive operator?
06:24:04 <GreaseMonkey> for some weird-ass reason, stuff from plof seems to have seeped into tomato which potato is based on
06:24:39 <Pikhq> And you'd be right. . .
06:25:04 <RodgerTheGreat> it's almost never used (and I'd say never necessary) for logical expressions, but a bitwise version would be handy
06:25:15 <GreaseMonkey> if it's algebra-intensive, it should be an operator
06:25:57 <RodgerTheGreat> there are a lot of floating point things about that op that could get complex
06:26:37 <RodgerTheGreat> so, a bitwise XOR should be added for sure, and we'll see about powering
06:28:19 <RodgerTheGreat> inc and dec aren't really *necessary* and once again don't act like most operators, (they're in the assignment family) but they would help the compiler along a bit
06:28:24 <GreaseMonkey> bsmntbombdood: "NOT" is declared as '!' - this ain't LUA
06:28:48 <GreaseMonkey> but "INC eax" is faster and smaller than "ADD eax,0x00000001"
06:31:20 <GreaseMonkey> seeing as there's SHL eax,(param) , and it shouldn't be too hard, yes
06:34:22 <RodgerTheGreat> my idea for assignments is to do them in blocks like "set parameter as expression" or "set [parameters] as [expression]"
06:35:04 <RodgerTheGreat> which is consistent with function call syntax of "do [parameters] to [parameters]"
06:36:37 <GreaseMonkey> i just love how i can just punch in a math function into C and BASIC
06:37:14 <GreaseMonkey> most good programming languages use standard math
06:37:31 <RodgerTheGreat> BASIC one-ups C with the cool feature of being an interpreted language- eval().
06:38:07 <RodgerTheGreat> but most BASICs are lacking in bitwise operators- vital for a language that'll be compiling to machinecode
06:38:08 <Pikhq> But Tcl one-ups Basic with the cool feature of having functions.
06:38:39 <Pikhq> I assume, of course, traditional "burnt into microcomputer's ROM" BASIC. ;)
06:39:34 <Pikhq> . . . Fine. Tcl's got this funny thing called "a sane syntax".
06:39:44 <RodgerTheGreat> BASIC has had functions nearly since it's conception, dude. TINYBASIC implementations for minicomputers with 4k of ram were what gave everyone a bad impression of the language
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06:40:25 <Pikhq> Call me up when they've got good list processing functions.
06:40:53 <RodgerTheGreat> you have completely missed the point of BASIC. congratulations.
06:41:10 <Pikhq> I'm being sarcastic. -_-'
06:41:27 * Pikhq started out on BASIC. . . Which is, of course, the whole point
06:42:09 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. I'm not sure if the convenience of just "set parameter as expression" for single assignments outweighs its inconsistencey.
06:42:46 <RodgerTheGreat> I might stick with simply "set [parameters] as [expressions]" at all times for that sake.
06:45:31 * Sukoshi slaps GreaseMonkey with a trout.
06:45:56 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm a CS, but I'm reasonably handy with electronics. Think I might be able to help?
06:46:28 <Sukoshi> When applying Kirchoff's Rules, is there one I per loop?
06:46:50 <Sukoshi> Electricity/magnetism has captured my heart.
06:47:01 <Sukoshi> Yes, I love it more than computers :P
06:47:47 <Pikhq> He's named Jesus, not What. :p
06:47:47 <Sukoshi> Do I have to go to #esoteric-ee now ? :(
06:47:56 <RodgerTheGreat> how can physics be more fascinating than a deterministic logic engine?
06:49:17 <Pikhq> How can nondeterminism be more fascinating to a Vulcan mindset than determinism?
06:50:09 <Sukoshi> Because you can mount a set of permanent magnets on the opposite sides of a doorknob, and place a wire loop connected to a switch to a battery surrounding the doorknob, in which one end perpendicular to a magnetic field is mounted inside of an insulator (but still allowing the magnetic field to exert the force), causing the wire to rotate and effectively causing a lock on the doorknob, if you have current running through the switch.
06:50:22 <Sukoshi> And you can make that lock with a few calculations, and $0.05 stuff.
06:50:58 <RodgerTheGreat> I just like fiddling with things in my junk drawer and my multitool until they work properly.
06:50:59 <Pikhq> Yes, but *I* can devise a simulation of that door and make a virtual room with a wall of locked doors.
06:51:10 <Arrogant> Nondeterministic is far more fascinating to me
06:51:25 <Sukoshi> I dunno, I got the engineering bug.
06:51:38 <Sukoshi> I who've been interested with such impractical things all my life. It feels weird to even me.
06:52:08 <RodgerTheGreat> physics are just mechanical systems to me, whereas a computer is a meta-machine that translates intangible information into action
06:52:12 <Sukoshi> Pikhq: But that virtual door won't stop your sister from turning off the lights while you're doing homework, or stop your parents from spying on you at night when you're supposed to be ``sleeping''.
06:52:28 <Pikhq> Sukoshi: No, it won't.
06:52:37 <Pikhq> It'll make them afraid of doing so.
06:53:02 <Pikhq> Intellectually, I pwn everyone around here. . .
06:53:04 <RodgerTheGreat> but engineering is a highly creative, yet productive process. It's not surprising your interests could move in that direction from programming
06:53:07 <Arrogant> It'll stop your virtual sister
06:53:25 <Pikhq> Were I really, truly angry, I would be able to exact revenge without hurting a single physical object.
06:53:29 <Sukoshi> My parents don't need to care about that.
06:53:49 <Pikhq> My parents are electronics-dependant.
06:53:52 <Sukoshi> Gawrsh, those are pretty pictures. *Plugs out computer*. You're supposed to be a mindless Indian engineer who hates her job! Fool!
06:54:35 <Pikhq> I could, if necessary, instate a ransom on all of their data. . . And they'd either follow through or be broke.
06:54:50 <Pikhq> I've not done so simply because they're not jerks, and therefore not deserving.
06:55:13 * Pikhq has just gotten a cracker streak. . . Where the hell did that come from?!?
06:55:38 <RodgerTheGreat> that's a nasty little superiority complex you have stewing there. You might want to get your antisocial tendencies looked at.
06:56:01 <Sukoshi> I blame my friend when I asked him to help me with < $0.05 easy to hide antenna designs.
06:56:42 <Pikhq> I might want to wonder WTF I'm thinking.
06:56:56 <Pikhq> Brain, please synchronise with reality.
06:57:39 <Pikhq> Or at least make intellectual arrogance less blatant.
06:58:05 <RodgerTheGreat> there's nothing like spending 6 hours bringing life to a tiny machine only to have it stab you in the finger and then fall off the table.
06:58:30 <RodgerTheGreat> they're usually tough little critters but not so much when I install solar cells.
07:00:31 <RodgerTheGreat> BEAM robotics really creates a new perspective on how complex a machine has to be to "survive" as insects do. Once you try making something with just a handful of transistors that you can just release in your yard and find alive weeks later you wind up having an epiphany.
07:02:01 <RodgerTheGreat> Sukoshi: please tell me you'll try BEAMbotics. It's friggin' awesome.
07:02:23 * Pikhq goes to sleep in hopes of waking up a lesser idiot
07:03:11 <RodgerTheGreat> the wiki article is a pretty good intro: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BEAM_robotics
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07:06:51 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm really only a beginner with "bicore" analog neural networks, but I find them fascinating
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07:53:58 <oklopol> "<RodgerTheGreat> but then, we could eat wood." you can eat wood.
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11:26:18 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: Common Lisp has a quite neat setters and getters system. Haskell has the cleanest system for mutable variables I have every seen, though it is rather verbose. You could also look at bash for ideas. (different name for varibles when setting than when getting) And False (esolang) has a good system too.
11:27:03 <SimonRC> and RodgerTheGreat and GreaseMonkey were having a conversation that was seriously insulting to the intelligence of compiler-writers last night
11:34:01 * SimonRC calculates the power density of the sun
11:34:18 <SimonRC> it is humerously low: 0.27 W/m^3
11:34:59 <SimonRC> No wonder the people building fusion reactors are having such a hard time.
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14:50:53 <bsmntbombdood> Sukoshi: you think you could create a strong enough force like that?
15:02:39 <bsmntbombdood> My gut tells me that it takes a lot of torque to stop a doorknob from turning
15:07:36 <oklopol> might be easier to just use a lock
15:07:49 <oklopol> unless i somehow misunderstood the point :)
15:44:26 <oklopol> can you attain noticeable forces without using a month's worth of electricity?
15:45:08 <oklopol> with just making coils from the wire :P
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20:55:48 <GregorR> Despite my general disdain for decentralized SCM, I'm starting to quite like darcs >_>
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23:08:20 <oerjan> it's about weird programming languages
23:08:23 <kbrooks> Please leave this channel, and rejoin.
23:08:43 <kbrooks> Please, some one write the first 16 numbers of the Fibonacci Sequence.
23:09:06 <kbrooks> oerjan, ok, so thats a exception...
23:10:41 <oerjan> 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 233 377 610 987 and why did i do this by hand...
23:12:11 <kbrooks> Some code generation magic in IRP.
23:12:30 <kbrooks> "Please show me the 'Hello World' program in C"
23:12:57 <kbrooks> -> int main() { printf("Hello World\n"); return 0; }
23:13:37 <oerjan> wow, parallel processing
23:15:14 <bsmntbombdood> hahahaa http://texas.clubsi.com/Aaron/ClubSi/CB.JPG
23:17:19 * oerjan wonders if you could make one for innumerates...
23:17:51 <lament> 3.141592653589793238462643383279 and why did i do this by hand....
23:19:50 <oerjan> especially since no one asked...
23:20:08 <lament> bsmntbombdood: that's 30 digits i think
23:20:18 <lament> i couldn't be bothered to go to 50
23:20:22 <oerjan> and i do _not_ have fibonacci numbers memorized beyond 13
23:20:34 <bsmntbombdood> 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105
23:21:03 <bsmntbombdood> I don't have pi memorized to 51 decimal places, I just calculated it on the fly
23:21:27 <oerjan> i thought you were a snob or something ;)
23:22:09 <jix__> 3.1415926 i don't know more digits
23:22:14 <jix__> like when does one need more?
23:23:08 <oerjan> when you are writing an infinite precision trigonometry library, i guess
23:23:55 <oerjan> for that pesky sin(10^1000)
23:24:54 <jix__> that's about 0.6533597982103698569480994680397685742659165408154051592053714008289739109316094727701317615597375546
23:26:10 <oerjan> how did you calculate it?
23:26:17 <jix__> oerjan: i typed it into mathematica
23:26:42 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.acc.umu.se/%7Ezqad/cats/index.html?view=1168702253-1167481579703.png
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