00:02:00 <Sukoshi> lament: It was an old joke.
00:02:41 <Sukoshi> On an old forum I used to go to, we had a joke going where returning values wasn't technically producing output.
00:02:49 <Sukoshi> (You had to actually print it out to do that.)
00:02:57 <Sukoshi> oklopol: I will some time soon.
00:03:10 <oklopol> what'll you use to produce sound?
00:03:35 <Sukoshi> The concept will be on the computer, of course.
00:04:16 <oklopol> i mean, asm out straight into the port, PlaySound, ...?
00:04:51 <Sukoshi> Well, I have to consider what language I want to write it in too.
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01:12:39 <oklopol> been obsessed with oklotalk :=)
01:31:12 <ihope_> I might want to invent one eventually.
01:52:05 <ihope_> I notice that in the BBM cellular automaton that's apparently by Fredkin, every collision results in a delay of 2 steps.
01:58:37 <ihope_> I also notice that if you're not careful, this can result in billiard balls breaking apart.
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02:39:49 <oklopol> it's a thing you use to prevent overflow
02:40:41 <oerjan> wouldn't that be underflow, rather?
02:40:44 <oklopol> i think i should sleep now, my sleep cycles seem to be getting a bit weird
02:41:05 <oklopol> it's 4:42, i'm not really tired and i haven't drunk coffee at all :|
02:45:43 <bsmntbombdood> i would assume it's the dialation that causes the fun, no?
02:46:21 <oklopol> and the fear of getting caught
02:51:26 <oklopol> well, some people like nurses
02:54:04 <oklopol> i'm laughing a bit too much now, perhaps i should sleep
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04:29:46 * oerjan is relieved not to know that quote.
04:32:05 <oerjan> you are far too late for that.
04:32:47 <oerjan> although my chances _might_ still be better than those two chatters. i don't know.
04:34:54 <oklopol> and why am i not sleeping?
04:35:54 <oklopol> i do stuff like in that quote sometimes, when horny old guy start harrassing me
04:36:44 <oklopol> sometimes, on big channels
04:38:05 <oklopol> like here, many of you harrass me in priv
04:39:32 <oklopol> hmm, wonder if i could stay awake the whole day
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09:32:52 <GreaseMonkey> yays, i now have a working wireworld interpreter for QB4.5!
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14:37:52 <ihope> I think I'm probably going to get a wish in NetHack.
14:39:18 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm whipping up a BF interpreter that uses cells of size 26 and maps them to capital A-Z. I call it "cryptographic BF", because it makes implementing/cracking basic crypto algorithms simpler.
14:39:54 <RodgerTheGreat> hopefully nobody will hit me with a trout for coming up with yet another bf variant. :[
14:43:23 * ihope hits RodgerTheGreat with a tuna for coming up with yet another BF variant
14:46:05 * ihope hits RodgerTheGreat 999,998 more times!
14:51:01 * ihope does that every 26 Planck times
14:51:16 <ihope> After all, it's only once modulo 26.
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15:01:14 <Tritonio_> why don't you make a brainfuck implementation with variable modulo? Use the first cell for the modulo and the second for the beggining of the mapping. So normal brainfuck should be 256,0 while your implementation 26,'A'
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15:04:27 <Tritonio_> or maybe use the first cell for the modulo and the next cell (a total of <modulo> cells) for the mapping.
15:04:38 <Tritonio_> so that you can do some strange mappings.
15:06:02 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. that could potentially make certain cyphers very easy
15:06:30 <RodgerTheGreat> both of those are good suggestions for a cryptographic BF implementation
15:06:52 <RodgerTheGreat> ooh- to retain normal BF functionality, I could store that data in "negative" cells.
15:07:10 <RodgerTheGreat> -1 could be modulo, and then -2 - -n+1 would be mappings
15:07:27 <RodgerTheGreat> then have them *default* to 26 and A-Z for convenience
15:08:48 <RodgerTheGreat> and then for implementation convenience (so I can use a conventional array and not have to do messy recopies all the time) I can cap the modulo at some maximum. is 255 reasonable, or should I make it higher?
15:10:11 <Tritonio_> what language are you going to use?
15:10:55 <RodgerTheGreat> my instinct is to do it in Java, but I may force myself to write it in C, for practice
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15:24:15 <RodgerTheGreat> is there a really easy way to dump stdin to a char array or something, or do I have to mess around with cin.getLine() ?
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15:53:35 <oerjan> you do not want to save the _modulo_ in the first cell, after all it would redefine itself as 0.
15:54:00 <oerjan> and modulo-1 would not work either, as it would wrap to 0 whenever you try to increase it.
16:02:20 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm just not going to enforce wrapping on negative cells. poof, problem solved
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19:15:21 <lament> "This is a brainfuck interpreter writen in Zetaplex! It is actually the first program writen in Zetaplex. Note: This does not work anymore because the specification has changed, but most of it is correct and it could probably be fixed easily, its just not been tried yet."
19:21:51 <lament> yeah, i'm sure it will be fixed any time soon now.
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20:06:02 <pikhq> Blargh. Just as I had a solution for Rodger. . .
20:17:09 <pikhq> C++ actually isn't a horrible language. . . If used sanely.
20:17:24 <pikhq> (although C is a good deal *cleaner* ;))
20:17:49 <bsmntbombdood> C++ isn't a horrible language...if you only use the C parts
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21:22:52 <pikhq> 08:22 < RodgerTheGreat> is there a really easy way to dump stdin to a char array or something, or do I have to mess around
21:23:09 <pikhq> cin.getLine().c_str();
21:23:20 <pikhq> Should return a char * for you.
21:29:20 <pikhq> Actually, it might be wiser to do str_dup(cin.getLine().c_str());, since .c_str() just returns the char * that's part of the string object. . .
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22:39:16 <Tritonio> anybody knows where I can discuss things about software licencing? I want to make I licence to use in my programs. I do not like some point's in the GNU/GPL, I find it to strict. So i am trying to modify the MIT license to fit my needs.
22:49:54 <pikhq_> Why do you find the GNU GPL too strict?
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22:54:17 <RodgerTheGreat> Tritonio: you could always go with my favorite license: http://sam.zoy.org/wtfpl/
22:58:21 <Tritonio> I think it is strict in many ways. For example if you alter the code of a gpled program you have to note exactly what you changed and when. I don't like that kind of things. I like small and strightforward licenses. Of course GPL is good for projects like linux...
22:59:23 <RodgerTheGreat> the WTFPL is probably the most open document that could be legally considered a software license
22:59:47 <pikhq> Have you *read* the GPL?
23:00:05 <pikhq> You don't have to note the changes, you just have to place them under the GPL.
23:00:09 <pikhq> I was talking to Tritonio.
23:00:25 <pikhq> If you're going to argue against the GPL, at *least* argue against what's in it. ;)
23:00:26 <RodgerTheGreat> I came to the conclusion that it was far too viral for my taste
23:01:03 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: I, of course, disagree: I find that it's best property.
23:03:21 <Tritonio> "The work must carry prominent notices stating that you modified
23:03:22 <Tritonio> it, and giving a relevant date."
23:04:28 <Tritonio> let alone the viral thing that RodgerTheGreat talked about
23:04:48 <Tritonio> what happens if you want to change the license of a program you wrote?
23:04:49 <pikhq> Which is the whole, uh, point.
23:05:04 <pikhq> If you are the copyright holder, you just do it.
23:05:36 <RodgerTheGreat> this of course rapidly becomes fuzzy in a collaborative setting
23:05:43 <pikhq> If you use GPL'd bits and pieces, remove those pieces, so that you're not using someone else's GPL'd code. . .
23:06:25 <Tritonio> so can I modify the MIT to allow only merging, republishing etc as freeware?
23:06:27 <pikhq> Tritonio: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-copyleft.html
23:07:01 <pikhq> Although it'd no longer be a free software license. . .
23:07:15 <Tritonio> I have read about GNU/GPL... I like it but not for my programs...
23:07:37 <Tritonio> Well who cares if it will be FSF approved... ;-)
23:08:00 <pikhq> If it's not free software, then I'm not using it. ;)
23:08:39 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: does WTFPL let anyone change the license?
23:08:55 <pikhq> oklopol: That's "doing what the fuck you want", isn't it?
23:09:18 <Tritonio> I still don't get one thing about the MIT licence...
23:09:56 <Tritonio> If someone takes some of my code and uses it in his program. He has to include my copyright and the permission notice.
23:10:08 <Tritonio> what's the point of including the permission notice?
23:10:25 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: in order to do this, is there something I need to include other than iostream? -> "str_dup(cin.getLine().c_str());"
23:10:46 <Tritonio> the permission notice gives permission to people that recieved my program and my documentation.
23:10:48 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: cstring
23:11:49 <Tritonio> but if he includes just a piece of my code then the permission notice won't be for the people that download his program.
23:12:01 <RodgerTheGreat> shift.cpp:6: error: 'struct std::istream' has no member named 'getLine'
23:12:02 <RodgerTheGreat> shift.cpp:6: error: 'str_dup' was not declared in this scope
23:12:24 * sebbu a son DUT Informatique
23:14:22 <pikhq> That ought to be strdup. . . And getline, not getLine.
23:14:29 <pikhq> strdup is in <cstring>
23:14:51 <sebbu> oerjan, an french diploma in 2 years after the bac
23:15:08 <oerjan> sebbu: congratulations :)
23:15:28 <RodgerTheGreat> shift.cpp:6: error: no matching function for call to 'std::basic_istream<char, std::char_traits<char> >::getline()'
23:18:00 <pikhq> Try using C I/O functions.
23:18:52 <pikhq> Pull up the libc info page.
23:39:52 <Tritonio> pikhq, RodgerTheGreat, can i send you the licence i have made? it's not finished of course. But I want some help...
23:41:32 <Tritonio> ok. http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1183675216.html
23:42:15 <Tritonio> after that I will put the MIT disclaimer.
23:42:27 <Tritonio> But i still want to expand 2. a bit.
23:43:56 <Tritonio> maybe is should change it to: "the resulting program and any future derivative programs"
23:49:52 <pikhq> Then you've got exactly what you complained about with the GPL. . .
23:50:31 <pikhq> In fact, you've made something that is, in some ways, more restrictive than the GPL.
23:51:33 <Tritonio> but it is straightforward... ;-) what is more restrictive? it even allows closed source programs...
23:52:31 <pikhq> Only for freeware, however.
23:52:34 <Tritonio> I only ask that the resulting work will still be freeware. even if it is closed source.
23:52:43 <pikhq> The GPL says *nothing* about cost.
23:52:53 <pikhq> Nor does any free software license.
23:53:14 <Tritonio> I don't want people profiting from my code. that's all. i don't care if they want to share the changes they made.
23:53:36 <Tritonio> but provide their programs for free.
23:53:58 <pikhq> Your program's not open source, either. . .
23:54:40 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Source_Definition
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23:55:11 <pikhq> Hrm. Scratch that.
23:55:44 <pikhq> The OSI definition doesn't specify jack about restricting the cost to be charged.
23:55:52 <pikhq> It *is* open source, but not free.
23:56:23 <Tritonio> sorry i don't see why it is not open source and free.
23:56:43 <pikhq> Because I can't charge for it.
23:58:08 <oerjan> "the software can be freely given away or sold", doesn't that imply you cannot restrict prizing?
23:58:09 <Tritonio> if you could charge for it it wouldn't be free either.
23:58:41 <pikhq> Tritonio: Free as in "free speech", not "free beer", thank you.
23:58:46 <Tritonio> so giving it is enough for calling it "open source"
23:59:28 <oerjan> no, that quote implies "freely sold" as well